UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: stephen25000 on July 06, 2013, 09:34:05 AM
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Well it seems some of the Portuguese are a bit peeved by SY's intentions.
Why SHOULD we help find Maddie, ask Portugal's police chiefs as they ridicule Scotland Yard claims of new leads on missing girl.
> Met Police made upbeat announcement about new leads on Thursday
> Attorney General has since poured scorn on Met investigation
> David Cameron welcomed the inquiry as the case 'still shocks the nation'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2357144/Madeleine-McCann-Why-SHOULD-help-missing-Maddie-ask-Portugals-police-chiefs.html
It doesn't help when xenophobia creeps into the headlines or comments either. It will be more likely for cooperation to be refused point blank.
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Well it seems some of the Portuguese are a bit peeved by SY's intentions.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2357144/Madeleine-McCann-Why-SHOULD-help-missing-Maddie-ask-Portugals-police-chiefs.html
It doesn't help when xenophobia creeps into the headlines or comments either. It will be more likely for cooperation to be refused point blank.
Good grief! I find myself agreeing with you Stephen (thud).
I hope the UK press are not going to antagonise the Portuguese as they have in the past.
On the other hand if 'Portugal' were really as hostile as that article infers - then would they have agreed to co-operate and liaise with SY in the first place? Doubtful imo.
It would appear that relations between the PJ and UK police have been very good thus far - and that is the most heartening news if any progress is going to be made.
As you say - xenaphobic comments or headlines are the worst possible way to go. The only loser will be Madeleine.
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Good grief! I find myself agreeing with you Stephen (thud).
I hope the UK press are not going to antagonise the Portuguese as they have in the past.
On the other hand if 'Portugal' were really as hostile as that article infers - then would they have agreed to co-operate and liaise with SY in the first place? Doubtful imo.
It would appear that relations between the PJ and UK police have been very good thus far - and that is the most heartening news if any progress is going to be made.
As you say - xenaphobic comments or headlines are the worst possible way to go. The only loser will be Madeleine.
I think the PJ are totally hostile as the report suggests SY feel they can do better. With the publicity now, can the PJ refuse to cooperate, I think they already have done. There's going to be a lot of anti Portuguese feeling if they continue to refuse.
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I think the PJ are totally hostile as the report suggests SY feel they can do better. With the publicity now, can the PJ refuse to cooperate, I think they already have done. There's going to be a lot of anti Portuguese feeling if they continue to refuse.
Dooesn't it make you wonder, why Portugal, are doing all they can to stop any proper investigation, to find Madeleine? What or who are they so feared of?
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I hope the UK press are not going to antagonise the Portuguese as they have in the past.
On the other hand if 'Portugal' were really as hostile as that article infers - then would they have agreed to co-operate and liaise with SY in the first place? Doubtful imo.
It would appear that relations between the PJ and UK police have been very good thus far - and that is the most heartening news if any progress is going to be made.
As you say - xenaphobic comments or headlines are the worst possible way to go. The only loser will be Madeleine.
Instead of hope and wishful thinking, may be protests could already pop up in the UK :
Portugal's top lawyer yesterday poured scorn on Scotland Yard’s investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
This is pure tabloid interpretation, this is totally false and offensive, as everybody here can verify since I posted yesterday the translation of the AG office's statement to press agency.
As if the absolutely unbelievable attacks of some UK newspapers that went up to curse a State and his ambassador in the UK hadn't been sufficient !
The trouble is this issue have never been casually but firmly contemplated : the dispute hasn't been solved, humiliation remained.
And the lines of Wellington fell down.
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Do study the files about the rogatory letter odisseia up to the interviews done by the LC under the mutual judicial assistance principle. What will happen is exactly the same, except that now the interviewers will be the Portuguese (asking the SY questions) and the SY officers will observe. No big deal !
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I think the PJ are totally hostile as the report suggests SY feel they can do better. With the publicity now, can the PJ refuse to cooperate, I think they already have done. There's going to be a lot of anti Portuguese feeling if they continue to refuse.
IIRC They haven't been officially asked yet for further co-operation. Apparently that is the next step in the legal procedure.
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Well it seems some of the Portuguese are a bit peeved by SY's intentions.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2357144/Madeleine-McCann-Why-SHOULD-help-missing-Maddie-ask-Portugals-police-chiefs.html
It doesn't help when xenophobia creeps into the headlines or comments either. It will be more likely for cooperation to be refused point blank.
I agree with you on that point, Stephen.
I find that article by Nick Fagge to be irresponsible.
The PT tabloids are quite likely to retaliate (if they haven't already done so: I haven't seen the entire reply by the PT MP, nor any questions asked which may have coloured the reply) ... and it will be groundhog day all over again.
It seems to be a game to the tabloids. Whatever has happened to this little girl, she should not be treated as a tennis ball (not to mention a certain type of polo).
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Dooesn't it make you wonder, why Portugal, are doing all they can to stop any proper investigation, to find Madeleine? What or who are they so feared of?
Feared of ? I don't think they're scared of anything. They have already spent more on this case than any other missing childrens case in their history and with no clear, new evidence forthcoming they are within their rights to say that they refuse to throw any more money at this case.
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Feared of ? I don't think they're scared of anything. They have already spent more on this case than any other missing childrens case in their history and with no clear, new evidence forthcoming they are within their rights to say that they refuse to throw any more money at this case.
I wonder if there's some kind of compensation for the time, the logistic, the conditions allowing this cooperation to occur. UK citizens should know that drastic restrictions stroke down social welfare : some old people get less than 200€ a month and many expensive drugs aren't available on the market because the NHS cannot afford them.
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LOL When all else fails, blame the McCanns for cuts in the NHS service. Jeez, how pathetic.
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LOL When all else fails, blame the McCanns for cuts in the NHS service. Jeez, how pathetic.
It really seems we're on a schoolyard !
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It really seems we're on a schoolyard !
What are you on about? Are you labouring under the false impression that your posts are somehow mature & well thought out?
WHERE do you find any proof that cuts in the NHS has any connection to the McCann investigation? Can you provide some proof of that?
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What are you on about? Are you labouring under the false impression that your posts are somehow mature & well thought out?
WHERE do you find any proof that cuts in the NHS has any connection to the McCann investigation? Can you provide some proof of that?
Always trying to ridicule, Mrs B !
Please do kindly cite where I said the NHS cuts were connected to future assistance the CPS will request and the MP will provide !
I can tell, if you don't know, what restrictions are connected to.
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Your own reply #9 above made the connection, nobody else have made any connections to the NHS, only YOU did.
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Your own reply #9 above made the connection, nobody else have made any connections to the NHS, only YOU did.
This is abusive, Mrs B. I was just observing, in case some would ignore it, Portugal is in a fragile financial situation. Drastic restrictions were imposed by the EU troika (with the worst consequences, as always, on precarious people), not by a judicial assistance that hasn't even yet been requested.
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LOL When all else fails, blame the McCanns for cuts in the NHS service. Jeez, how pathetic.
UK police time and our tax payers money, is being used to find a Portuguese paedophile, who raped a 12 yr old.
Just hope the police find him, before he does it again.
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02574/Antonio-Pedro-de-A_2574471b.jpg)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10083508/Convicted-paedophile-who-raped-12-year-old-girl-went-on-the-run-after-he-was-bailed-and-allowed-to-keep-passport.html
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Not abusive & nothing to do with the NHS, and the Portuguese financial crisis does not depend on the McCann.
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Not abusive & nothing to do with the NHS, and the Portuguese financial crisis does not depend on the McCann.
No its all to do with corruption, Mrs B. 8()(((@#
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Yes, we know, we've all seen examples of corruption just by looking at this case alone.
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What is all this tit-for-tat about?
For heaven's sake, let the authorities get on with finding out what happened to this little girl and continue to encourage anyone with potentially significant information to feed it into the inquiry.
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It's probably exactly what both the Met & the PJ ARE doing, Carana, no doubt in my mind they couldn't care less for any BS the notoriously untrustworthy tabloids are trying to stir up.
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Yes, we know, we've all seen examples of corruption just by looking at this case alone.
Corruption is not down to one country as you well know.
This countries history is littered with it, including the police force.
Likewise, people employed by the Mccanns have proven to be corrupt and/or incompetent.
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It's probably exactly what both the Met & the PJ ARE doing, Carana, no doubt in my mind they couldn't care less for any BS the notoriously untrustworthy tabloids are trying to stir up.
I'd agree that the UK and PJ authorities hopefully don't take much notice.
However, what if one of the "carriers" had wanted to come forward? (If indeed there were two.) It may be that one or both of the men (if there were two) are totally innocent and may simply not have wanted the paparazzi camped outside their door. Nor for the tabloids to possibly delve into potentially expired work visas, particularly if they had family members there.
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True, but they could easily contact NSY instead, they don't give out names of confidential witnesses to the tabloids, but, of course, not everybody knows that.
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LOL When all else fails, blame the McCanns for cuts in the NHS service. Jeez, how pathetic.
Don't you know that it will be Gerry McCann's fault if Portugal fail to qualify for Euro 2014?
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Don't you know that it will be Gerry McCann's fault if Portugal fail to qualify for Euro 2014?
Oh, would that be Gerry? I was sure it would be Kate's fault - most things seem to be. Including bad weather.
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Oh, would that be Gerry? I was sure it would be Kate's fault - most things seem to be. Including bad weather.
No, I reckon Gerry will be blamed if Portugal fail to qualify. After all, wasn't he once club doctor at Celtic FC? So it's also his fault whenever Benfica lose to Celtic.
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Ah OK, thanks. As long as we know who to blame....for EVERYTHING!
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The hostility between the Portuguese police and the British police is something which will not go away regardless of the deal the CPS did with their bosses in Lisbon. It will be the GNR and the PJ footsoldiers on the ground who will make or break this illusion of international cooperation.
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How do we know there IS hostility between them, because Amaral whined about it? He's not in the PJ any more. In fact, he's nowhere to be seen, not even on Dear Julia's sofa these days.
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The hostility between the Portuguese police and the British police is something which will not go away regardless of the deal the CPS did with their bosses in Lisbon. It will be the GNR and the PJ footsoldiers on the ground who will make or break this illusion of international cooperation.
No hostility must be feared, but a certain mistrust should reasonably be expected concerning what SY hopes to find (see the Daily Star article) and moreover what tabloids will be let or induced to publish about the Tweedledums et Tweedledees of this Wonderland. It has already started to-day with the Daily Mail article, bad omen. Luckily Portuguese have usually a big sense of humour, not the British one, more the one that makes you smile.
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So apart from this article, is there any CREDIBLE sources to rely on?
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In reality, just image how the Portuguese would feel if the Met solved the case in the PJ's own back yard.
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In reality, just image how the Portuguese would feel if the Met solved the case in the PJ's own back yard.
The Yard already have a head start, John - no corrupt coppers like Amaral and Tavares de Almeida are investigating this time.
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So apart from this article, is there any CREDIBLE sources to rely on?
Be better sticking to the good old CdM articles, and that says something ?>)()<
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In reality, just image how the Portuguese would feel if the Met solved the case in the PJ's own back yard.
Those who co-operate with the NSY would have every reason to feel proud, those like Amaral & his "team" (& that does not include ALL of them, there were some that were honest & doing a good job) would obviously feel slighted. But what's that against the possibility of finding a missing child?
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If I recall, the Portuguese previously stated that one of the reasons why the investigation was curtailed was because of pressure which had been brought upon them to close the case. It was also hinted at that there was political pressure brought upon the Portuguese to bring the enquiry to an end.
So what's changed?
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If I recall, the Portuguese previously stated that one of the reasons why the investigation was curtailed was because of pressure which had been brought upon them to close the case. It was also hinted at that there was political pressure brought upon the Portuguese to bring the enquiry to an end.
So what's changed?
Who stated so, John ? The AG reported the investigation was stagnant and explained why. Besides the arguido status of Mr Murat, twice prolonged (maximum), had to be removed and that could occur only at the end of the investigation.
Though a crime had been acknowledged, evidence wasn't sufficient to establish its nature and the MP logically couldn't elaborate any accusation.
But, this wasn't the end. Had the McCanns solicited it and had it been accepted a process called "instrucção" could have been opened.
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Ah OK, thanks. As long as we know who to blame....for EVERYTHING!
The septics on FB are currently saying that, as Gerry McCann is a heart specialist, he may have some inside info on the death of Princess Diana.
Why are these people so stupid?
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The septics on FB are currently saying that, as Gerry McCann is a heart specialist, he may have some inside info on the death of Princess Diana.
Why are these people so stupid?
More pragmatical, Rachel, why exactly do you call these people "sceptics" ? How do they reveal themselves as "sceptics" speculating on Mr McCann's acquaintance with the French urgentists of La Salpêtrière ?
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I just reminded where I was when I learnt that Lady Diana died (I was in Jodhpur). Do you remember ? And do you remember where you were when you learnt Madeleine McCann had disappeared ? I don't.
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More pragmatical, Rachel, why exactly do you call these people "sceptics" ? How do they reveal themselves as "sceptics" speculating on Mr McCann's acquaintance with the French urgentists of La Salpêtrière ?
I don't call them sceptics, Anne. Read my post again.
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I don't call them sceptics, Anne. Read my post again.
Well, Rachel, I'm sorry to read
The septics on FB are currently saying that, as Gerry McCann is a heart specialist, he may have some inside info on the death of Princess Diana.
Why are these people so stupid?
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I just reminded where I was when I learnt that Lady Diana died (I was in Jodhpur). Do you remember ? And do you remember where you were when you learnt Madeleine McCann had disappeared ? I don't.
Yes, I was at home in bed that Sunday morning back in 1997 when my sister rushed into say that Princess Diana had been killed. I was shocked and was actually brought to tears when I saw the wreath on her coffin with the note saying "Mummy". It brought it home that two young boys had lost their mother in tragic circumstances.
I heard the first news reports of Madeleine's abduction early on 4 May and was shocked, upset and filled with compassion for her family.
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Yes, I was at home in bed that Sunday morning back in 1997 when my sister rushed into say that Princess Diana had been killed. I was shocked and was actually brought to tears when I saw the wreath on her coffin with the note saying "Mummy". It brought it home that two young boys had lost their mother in tragic circumstances.
I heard the first news reports of Madeleine's abduction early on 4 May and was shocked, upset and filled with compassion for her family.
I reckon you don't remember where you were in Madeleine case.
In Lady Diana case, I was having breakfast in Jodhpur, alone because my son was sick.
I hope you do believe she died in a car accident with Mr Dodi ?.
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If I recall, the Portuguese previously stated that one of the reasons why the investigation was curtailed was because of pressure which had been brought upon them to close the case. It was also hinted at that there was political pressure brought upon the Portuguese to bring the enquiry to an end.
So what's changed?
There are laws governing how long an investigation can remain open in Portugal. I'm not sure what the timeframes are now as the laws keep changing. The timeframe (measured in months) depended on a) the nature of the crime and b) whether or not there were arguidos / people under house arrest. From memory, there can (or could) be a 2-month extension if it's considered crucial.
A two-edged sword in a way, in my view. The fact of creating time pressure to conclude an investigation gets the process moving and means that arguidos aren't kept in limbo for years. On the other hand, that same pressure could lead to hasty conclusions.
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Rui Pedro was abducted in 1998
About 2 years ago, there was a flurry of activity and his case came to Court. The flurry, according to reports, was because the period of investigation was closing.
At a guess that corresponds to 15 years. So perhaps the maximum period of Investigation in PT is 15 years?
Maybe someone knows if my conjectures are right?
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There are laws governing how long an investigation can remain open in Portugal. I'm not sure what the timeframes are now as the laws keep changing. The timeframe (measured in months) depended on a) the nature of the crime and b) whether or not there were arguidos / people under house arrest. From memory, there can (or could) be a 2-month extension if it's considered crucial.
A two-edged sword in a way, in my view. The fact of creating time pressure to conclude an investigation gets the process moving and means that arguidos aren't kept in limbo for years. On the other hand, that same pressure could lead to hasty conclusions.
Arguidos and assistants in the investigation (a statute the McCanns asked for, were granted and then denied by the PGR as being incompatible with the arguido one) can require the opening of an "instrucção", a contradictory inquiry, if they don't agree with the shelving of the investigation, whatever was the reason for shelving.
Meanwhile it should be reminded that the arguidos have other rights apart silence. They've participation rights because their statute makes them "subjects of the process" : a right of hearings, of providing evidence, of requiring police interventions and of appealing.
The McCanns made no use of those rights, except for silence.
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Arguidos and assistants in the investigation (a statute the McCanns asked for, were granted and then denied by the PGR as being incompatible with the arguido one) can require the opening of an "instrucção", a contradictory inquiry, if they don't agree with the shelving of the investigation, whatever was the reason for shelving.
Meanwhile it should be reminded that the arguidos have other rights apart silence. They've participation rights because their statute makes them "subjects of the process" : a right of hearings, of providing evidence, of requiring police interventions and of appealing.
The McCanns made no use of those rights, except for silence.
Maybe they they no longer trust the PT legal system. I don't.
Maybe they have left it in the hands of SY ?
Seems a very wise decision to me.
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Well it seems some of the Portuguese are a bit peeved by SY's intentions.
Why SHOULD we help find Maddie, ask Portugal's police chiefs as they ridicule Scotland Yard claims of new leads on missing girl.
> Met Police made upbeat announcement about new leads on Thursday
> Attorney General has since poured scorn on Met investigation
> David Cameron welcomed the inquiry as the case 'still shocks the nation'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2357144/Madeleine-McCann-Why-SHOULD-help-missing-Maddie-ask-Portugals-police-chiefs.html
It doesn't help when xenophobia creeps into the headlines or comments either. It will be more likely for cooperation to be refused point blank.
Excuse the caps...
BULLSHIT
The General Attorney was the only entity questioned by Lusa, the national news agency and they only responded that no formal request had been received from UK. Furthermore, when questioned about the expansion of the investigation by SY, they clarified that SY had no jurisdiction in Portugal, and any investigation would have to be conducted by portuguese agents, if an european cooperation request was presented and approved.
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Excuse the caps...
BULLSHIT
The General Attorney was the only entity questioned by Lusa, the national news agency and they only responded that no formal request had been received from UK. Furthermore, when questioned about the expansion of the investigation by SY, they clarified that SY had no jurisdiction in Portugal, and any investigation would have to be conducted by portuguese agents, if an european cooperation request was presented and approved.
Well, that would indeed seem to be the bottom line - whatever spin the tabloids of either country choose to sell more media advertising.
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so, the express newspaper explained today what the problem is and it aint no portuguese saying they wont cooperate or refusing to hand over anything blah blah and blah,as the papers have been printing all week, including the totally morally defunct right wing xenophobic irresponsible daily (hate) mail printing that the portuguese ag said *why should we help?* I wonder though what the headline here actually MEANS
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/414253/Red-tape-won-t-delay-hunt-for-Madeleine-say-McCanns
Red tape won’t delay hunt for Madeleine say McCanns
THE parents of Madeleine McCann say they have “absolute faith” in the new investigation into their missing daughter despite reports the Europe-wide inquiry is already getting bogged down in red tape
By: Mark ReynoldsPublished: Fri, July 12, 2013
0Comments
Polive believe Madeleine may still be alive
Eight days after Scotland Yard announced that officers were moving from review stage of the case to a full-blown investigation, Kate and Gerry McCann remain hopeful of a breakthrough.
Their declaration came after it was revealed that a vital Letter of Request, which must be sent to the Portuguese authorities, has still not been delivered.
Without it, aspects of the investigation could be delayed due to lack of formal approval from the relevant authorities there.
Last night the Crown Prosecution Service, which is responsible for delivering the letter to the Portuguese judicial bodies, said its officials were still drawing up the complex legal document.
A CPS spokesman said: “Any legal communication between different jurisdictions requires extremely careful correspondence, including appropriate translations.
“We are liaising with the Portuguese authorities and will send the formal Letter of Request as soon as possible.”
The spokesman said police had fully consulted with the CPS before Scotland Yard went public with its announcement of a full-blown investigation last week.
Kate & Gerry McCann have expressed total support for the Scotland Yard investigation
It is a positive step in our hunt for Madeleine that our understanding of the evidence has enabled us to shift from review to investigation
DCI Andy Redwood
A spokesman for the Metropolitan Police declined to comment.
But Clarence Mitchell, spokesman for the McCanns, said: “Kate and Gerry will not be giving a running commentary on every part of this process. But they have absolute faith in the work Scotland Yard are doing.”
Senior Met Police officers from Operation Grange, the inquiry into Madeleine’s disappearance, are aware of the technical and bureaucratic complexities which face them. But they also remain optimistic of making progress in the case.
They have told how they believe Madeleine may still be alive and urged the public to continue to help search for her.
Announcing the full-blown investigation, Det Chief Inspector Andy Redwood, head of Operation Grange, said: “It is a positive step in our hunt for Madeleine that our understanding of the evidence has enabled us to shift from review to investigation.”
He added: “We, and the Portuguese authorities, remain completely committed to finding out what happened to Madeleine, and everything we do is utterly focused on her best interests.
“We continue to believe that there is a possibility that Madeleine is alive.” Officers need all relevant documents correctly in place to ensure full co-operation between officials here and abroad, and to avoid bureaucratic hitches.
International criminal investigations in Europe are governed by two “mutual assistance” treaties, one dating back to 1959 and the other from 2000.
An age progressed photo of Maddy, as she is beleived to look on the approach to her ninth birthday
The conventions set out procedures for matters such as the exchange of legal papers, holding hearings by video-link, the control of undercover officers, phone taps and interception of email and other communications.
Police revealed they have identified 38 “persons of interest” so far – 12 of whom are British nationals who were in Portugal at the time Madeleine vanished, and are currently thought to be in Portugal or the UK.
The others on the list are believed to be in Portugal, the UK or three other unnamed European countries.
Madeleine – who would now be 10 years old – went missing from a holiday apartment in Praia da Luz on the Algarve on May 3, 2007.
The Portuguese investigation is officially closed but the authorities there are backing the new Scotland Yard inquiry. Officers from both countries will work together in pursuing fresh leads.
A team of 37 Met Police officers and staff are working on the case.
So far the team has gathered 30,500 documents and generated 3,800 “actions” they need to tackle.
They are about two-thirds of the way through their review and so far have been to Portugal 16 times.
Operation Grange was launched in May 2011 after the McCanns, both 45, and from Rothley, Leics, appealed directly to Prime Minister David Cameron for help from Scotland Yard.
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I wonder though what the headline here actually MEANS
I wonder too. The rest is lots of numbers trying to substantiate the blah blah blah.
Just remember the rogatory letter Portugal > UK took almost 5 months, due to the obvious reluctance of the HO.
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I wonder too. The rest is lots of numbers trying to substantiate the blah blah blah.
Just remember the rogatory letter Portugal > UK took almost 5 months, due to the obvious reluctance of the HO.
no sense of urgency then by the british and no sense of urgency now,the cps which is the euivqlent to the portugal public prosecutor was there in april, three months ago!!!! so obviously it is NOT about finding Madeleine imo and never has been
oh and not forgetting the no sense of urgency from many so called * witnesses* who took months and years to come forward, sad