UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: John on April 08, 2012, 09:40:22 PM
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Much has been written about the murders and the manner in which they were carried out. Some academics and think-tanks have suggestion that the operation went too smoothly for only one person to have been involved. This in itself is a misrepresentation of the facts in this case. Far from going smoothly, Jeremy Bamber was lucky to have carried it off. As we all now know, his luck ran out!
Jeremy got into the farmhouse by his tried and trusted method, his downstairs dodgy window. He retrieved his rifle and ammunition and made his way upstairs. It is accepted that he shot the sleeping twins first and probably did so using the rifle fitted with the sound moderator so as to make least noise. Then on to the master bedroom where he knew his parents slept.
We know from the distribution and quantity of the empty bullet casings retrieved by police that he fired a total of 12 bullets at his mother and father from the moment the door was opened. Did Nevill, hearing the noise outside confront him at the bedroom door, the bullet casing distribution would certainly suggest this. June was shot as she lay in bed hitting her but not fatally, three bullets missed their target. This was Jeremy's first shock, the fact that a couple of bullets from his tried and trusted rifle would not kill an adult human being!
(http://i.imgur.com/lAhXv.jpg)
The scene in the master bedroom showing blood on the side of the bed where June had been lying when she was shot. Nevill appears to have been out of bed and was probably on his way to confront the intruder when he was shot as he opened the bedroom door.
(http://i.imgur.com/doPCj.jpg)
Distribution of the bullets and empty casings in the master bedroom. DRH 5, 9 and 2x35 are bullets.
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Contd..
Nevill Bamber got past Jeremy even after sustaining four/five bullet wounds to his left arm, neck, jaw and head and still managed to struggle downstairs leaving a trail of blood on the stair/hall carpet and on wallpaper as he attempted to get to the telephone in the kitchen to summon help. One must remember that the bedroom telephone had been conveniently removed some time earlier in order to prevent June and Nevill summoning help from their bedroom.
From the position of the bedroom door, Jeremy shot the now standing June again fatally killing her where she then stood between the bed and the bedroom door. He would have needed to reload his weapon by this point, something he hadn't planned on, he didn't realise that he would need more than 10 rounds to do the job which up until this point had taken a total of 20 bullets. He was left with no alternative but to quickly follow Nevill downstairs and assault him with the rifle butt in what turned out to be a savage and brutal attack. Things were going wrong now, how could he possibly pass this carnage off on petite Sheila? Having floored Nevill he would have to have gone for more ammunition and reloaded the rifle before pumping three more shots into Nevill killing him.
Jeremy was then left with the task of murdering the sedated Sheila as she slept through it all on her bed upstairs. Sheila was carried through to the master bedroom and shot through the neck. The bullet fragmented and Bamber was left with no alternative but to shoot her again as she lay on the floor. The second bullet killed her instantly.
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I find that fascinating. Can we be sure though whether the twins were shot at the beginning or the end of the main assault? The twins could have been sedated just like Sheila but I suppose that would have been a give away. I always wondered why Sheila had a peaceful look on her face after everything that had happened.
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Sedated with what? The blood screening showed nothing unusual in any of them.
Other than that, a plausible theory, but why carry Sheila into the main bedroom? He could have staged her where she was.
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Sedated with Valium. He already had a supply of them and it would have been quite easy to drug her when he was there at the farm earlier. Didn't Pamela say Sheila was very quiet and withdrawn at that stage. She probably went up to her bed and fell asleep on top of it. Her appearance after being shot twice certainly gives it away I think.
The carrying her into the main bedroom has me stumped so far, anyone got any ideas on why he would do that? 8-)(--)
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Sedated with Valium. He already had a supply of them and it would have been quite easy to drug her when he was there at the farm earlier. Didn't Pamela say Sheila was very quiet and withdrawn at that stage. She probably went up to her bed and fell asleep on top of it. Her appearance after being shot twice certainly gives it away I think.
The carrying her into the main bedroom has me stumped so far, anyone got any ideas on why he would do that? 8-)(--)
Do you think he did that so as to make it look like she had shot June last before committing suicide herself?
I have some sympathy with the suggestion that June and Sheila were originally found on the bed side by side.
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I don't think she was carried, she was pulled, petrified, from her bedroom. By this stage she was so terrified, and everyone else was dead, she had no fight in her. The poor girl was lost, and did as she was told. But, as JB stated, she moved slightly just before the first shot, and it missed. It didn't kill her, but it rendered her unconscious. She never moved again. No expirated blood, and just that small, trianguler stain on her nightdress.
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Sheila and the twins' blood was screened for benzodiazepine drugs (which is what valium is) and came up negative.
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Sheila and the twins' blood was screened for benzodiazepine drugs (which is what valium is) and came up negative.
Thanks Weety, was that in the pathologists report?
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It's in the blood screening report, here:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=207.0
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It's in the blood screening report, here:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=207.0
Thanks Weety. There must be some reason why Sheila was so noticeably unconcerned when she was shot. I am still of the opinion that she was unconscious. Could she have been asphyxiated as she slept leaving no traces of such and then shot to cover this up?
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I think one of the signs of asphyxiation is burst blood vessels in the eyes, I don't know if that always occurs but anyway, if she was dead before she was shot she wouldn't have bled the way she did. I'm sure a pathologist would have been able to tell, even in 1985.
As to noticeably unconcerned, what do you base that on? If it's facial expression, I've seen a couple of pretty unconcerned looking drowned people. If it's lack of tears, I don't know, absolute shock and terror may produce a reaction which temporarily blocks the normal emotions I suppose.
I can't reconcile the idea of staging a suicide with carrying her from her room into June and Neville's. It would have looked better if she'd been on her own bed or in the boys' room. I think either he didn't intend her to be there but she was, or she turned up there, or he had to bring her there for some reason. Maybe he came back up to find her wandering around on the landing and was not sure whether or not he had managed to kill June.
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Good precis of how it could have been done. However, it has been suggested that the upstairs phone may not have been moved until after the murders. All Jeremy had to do was take the kitchen phone off the hook then Neville wouldn't have been able to use the bedroom phone (only one phone line into the house), hence his haste to get to the phone downstairs to hang it up. How Sheila was sedated (and she would have had to have been for the plan to work) I'm not sure. Does chloroform leave any trace in the bloodstream which would have shown up on the post mortem?
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I think the true story lies somewhere in those posts .... I like to think that after Bamber had shot the poor twins and the initial shots into Nevill and June he ran out of bullets. Nevill then chased Jeremy downstairs who was going after more bullets; Nevill got to him before he could reload and the massive struggle took place. Unfortunately Jeremy won as Nevill was already badly injured from the initial shots.
Nevill fought to his death to save his family and he must have know it was his own son he had to fight. How anyone could believe that Sheila overcame Nevill in such a struggle is quite beyond any commonsense in my opinion.
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Occam's razor...
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Occam's razor...
Murphy^s Law ......
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Good precis of how it could have been done. However, it has been suggested that the upstairs phone may not have been moved until after the murders. All Jeremy had to do was take the kitchen phone off the hook then Neville wouldn't have been able to use the bedroom phone (only one phone line into the house), hence his haste to get to the phone downstairs to hang it up. How Sheila was sedated (and she would have had to have been for the plan to work) I'm not sure. Does chloroform leave any trace in the bloodstream which would have shown up on the post mortem?
I go with the rendering her unconscious theory as well and all it would have taken was his hand over her mouth for a short time. Didn't somebody say Sheila had nail marks on her arm as well as Neville?
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Contd..
Nevill Bamber got past Jeremy even after sustaining four/five bullet wounds to his left arm, neck, jaw and head and still managed to struggle downstairs leaving a trail of blood on the stair/hall carpet and on wallpaper as he attempted to get to the telephone in the kitchen to summon help. One must remember that the bedroom telephone had been conveniently removed some time earlier in order to prevent June and Nevill summoning help from their bedroom.
From the position of the bedroom door, Jeremy shot the now standing June again fatally killing her where she then stood between the bed and the bedroom door. He would have needed to reload his weapon by this point, something he hadn't planned on, he didn't realise that he would need more than 10 rounds to do the job which up until this point had taken a total of 20 bullets. He was left with no alternative but to quickly follow Nevill downstairs and assault him with the rifle butt in what turned out to be a savage and brutal attack. Things were going wrong now, how could he possibly pass this carnage off on petite Sheila? Having floored Nevill he would have to have gone for more ammunition and reloaded the rifle before pumping three more shots into Nevill killing him.
Jeremy was then left with the task of murdering the sedated Sheila as she slept through it all on her bed upstairs. Sheila was carried through to the master bedroom and shot through the neck. The bullet fragmented and Bamber was left with no alternative but to shoot her again as she lay on the floor. The second bullet killed her instantly.
Hello John, Thanks for posting up your theory of what happened on that night. I have spent a lot of time trying to work out what happened that night. So many things just don't add up.
As you know, i am not an advocate for the twins being killed first. No point going over old ground so i will address a few other things that you raise. Why would Nevill flee downstairs leaving the killer upstairs? If it happens how you state and the killer starts shooting immediately on seeing Nevill, then Nevill wouldn't know if the twins or Sheila were injured or worse. I don't feel that an ex services man would try and raise the alarm and leave other family members vulnerable upstairs. Surely he would have fought for his life upstairs. I believe Nevill followed or chased the killer downstairs when the ammunition was expended in their rifle.
I also don't feel Sheila was drugged either. There is no mention in Venezis post mortem of any type of sedative in Sheila's system, only her prescribed medication and Cannabis.
Any thoughts on Nevill's four head wounds and there being only three shell casings in the kitchen? Do you still think that the Twins were shot once and then returned to, or do you feel they were shot in one episode?
Hope you don't mind the questions John and thanks again for posting up your thoughts on what happened that night. It is interesting to read a theory on what happened from someone who thinks he is guilty.
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Hallo, Si. I'm sure the boys were killed in one episode, in almost precise arcs. I also think that they were shot first. Ralph and June wouldn't have known if they were alive, injured or dead, they didn't get the opportunity to go into their room and find out.
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Hallo, Si. I'm sure the boys were killed in one episode, in almost precise arcs. I also think that they were shot first. Ralph and June wouldn't have known if they were alive, injured or dead, they didn't get the opportunity to go into their room and find out.
That's my point though Pugs. Ralphy wouldn't have known whether the twins were hurt or not, so he surely wouldn't have left the killer upstairs with a rifle and ammunition whilst he tried to make a phonecall to the rozzers downstairs. Wouldn't he have tried to disarm the killer immediately?
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Sigh. I miss being called Pugs! I've always said - at which point would Ralph have left the terrible situation to call anyone - hang on a minute, Sheila love, hold that thought while I nip downstairs and call your useless, feckless brother. Poor Ralph never made a phone call. The phone would have been covered in blood. And Ralph would have told JB to STAY AWAY. Otherwise he would have been inviting him to certain injury, or death.
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You will always be Pugs to me. Hope you are well by the way.
Nevill's body being found downstairs is a dilemna in itself. We can be almost certain he is shot upstairs and downstairs. There is some sort of break between the initial shooting to Nevill's death because he manages to get downstairs after being shot four times. I would argue if he was being chased, he would not have reached the kitchen. Personally i feel, Ralph was pursuing the killer downstairs. I have always thought that the killer had to go downstairs to reload. I reckon the killer thought the murders could be committed without a reload and had no extra ammunition and had to go downstairs. What are your thoughts Pugs?
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As has been said on here, maybe JB was taken by suprise that a couple of bullets weren't enough to kill adults, especially as they moved about. I'm fine by the way, and it's lovely to hear from you!! JB (or accomplice) obviously had to get downstairs to reload. He was either slow with that, or the gun jammed. Hence the terrible beating that Ralph suffered in the kitchen. What I've always wondered is...if a piece of the stock was broken off during that beating, why is the gun on Sheila (and the gun held up by the copper) intact?
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I am not sure if there is any mention of the size of the piece of stock broken. Could be very small i suppose. (I do feel awkward using the phrase very small, must be a man thing) 8()-000(
Off to bed now Pugs. Speak soon.
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And why does Mike go on and on about a silencer, and totally ignore the huge damage and truama that a results from a gun shot wound? It's not a bloody chinese burn. He's got Sheila dancing about the house, hiding from the police and barking like a dog with a bleeding wound in her throat, and Ralph skipping downstairs and asking JB if he wouldn't mind popping round, when at least he's got injuries to his arm and shoulder, and possibly extensive damage to his face and mouth. Total bollox.
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I am not sure if there is any mention of the size of the piece of stock broken. Could be very small i suppose. (I do feel awkward using the phrase very small, must be a man thing) 8()-000(
Off to bed now Pugs. Speak soon.
Goodnight, Si. But there is an image of the piece of stock on the kitchen floor. Big enough to see.
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It's ridiculous fantasy to suggest that, if Ralph had the opportunity to make one phone call while Sheila rampaged around the house with a loaded gun, it would be to JB. Apparently, JB had been working hard all day, he might not even wake up and hear the phone, he could do b....r all about the situation, Ralph wouldn't have wanted JB to walk into such a terrible scenario, and by this stage Ralph needed the police and at least one ambulance. He would have done what anyone else would have done. He would have called 999. If he could.
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And I don't care who gets to hear the decision first. We all know what it will be. Do not pass go, do not collect 100 pounds, do not make any plans for the next 10 years. Jackie, if you'd buttoned your gums, and not interfered and shouted like a manic fish-wife, JB might have been in with a chance. Who says there's no such thing as karma?
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Jackie, you weird old gimmer. I'm sorry about your raison d'etre. But as sure as night follows day, and my lovely swallows return to my stables, JB will stay where he belongs. Feel free to insult me tomorrrow. Water off a duck's back, old lady. She who laughs last.......
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Jackie, you weird old gimmer. I'm sorry about your raison d'etre. But as sure as night follows day, and my lovely swallows return to my stables, JB will stay where he belongs. Feel free to insult me tomorrrow. Water off a duck's back, old lady. She who laughs last.......
Hey Shona...you have just reminded me. My house martins and swallows are late this year. I keep a note each year when they first arrive back from Africa and it was 6 April last year but 24 April in 2010. We had a bumper year for the house martins last year because of all the good weather, there must be about 16 nests under the eaves.
(http://i.imgur.com/y1xGW.jpg?1)
Three House Martin chicks awaiting maw and paw's return.
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I am waiting for my starlings and swallows too but remember Shona PUGS one swallow does not a summer make! Isn't it nice to not live in a dingy council dump where the only wildlife is just one bitter old crow!
Simon I too don't believe that Nevill was going for the telephone as I too am sure he wouldn't have left Jeremy with his family upstairs ..... I have always thought he chased Jeremy downstairs when JB ran out of bullets. Remember there was also a panic alarm downstairs and Nevill would have pressed that rather than try and make a phonecall .... he never got the chance to do either!
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I can confirm that a couple of old Blue Tits have been spotted in Brentwood. They look like they are about to drop!
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I am waiting for my starlings and swallows too but remember Shona PUGS one swallow does not a summer make! Isn't it nice to not live in a dingy council dump where the only wildlife is just one bitter old crow!
Simon I too don't believe that Nevill was going for the telephone as I too am sure he wouldn't have left Jeremy with his family upstairs ..... I have always thought he chased Jeremy downstairs when JB ran out of bullets. Remember there was also a panic alarm downstairs and Nevill would have pressed that rather than try and make a phonecall .... he never got the chance to do either!
That is most defs a possibility since Jeremy Bamber would have been afraid of Ralph even with three or four bullets in him. There was an empty shell found halfway down the stairs which could mean someone shooting up the stairs at Ralph as he came out of the bedroom.
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I can confirm that a couple of old Blue Tits have been spotted in Brentwood. They look like they are about to drop!
@)(++(* @)(++(*
Belton and Preece have been stuffed by Hartley! That's gotta hurt!
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I can confirm that a couple of old Blue Tits have been spotted in Brentwood. They look like they are about to drop!
@)(++(* @)(++(*
Belton and Preece have been stuffed by Hartley! That's gotta hurt!
and now Hartley's saying "living victims." Now that's going to wind them all up!
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For those who missed a 'cheep' read over Easter. 8)-)))
You'd have thought they'd knock the 40p.off.
The postage is a bit too dear for me though. 8(8-))
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Some general thoughts that have come into my mind about the events that happened that night at WHF. Nevill is shot 4 times upstairs which you would assume would knock him to the ground. Getting to his feet and then getting to the kitchen is going to take some time and effort for someone who has four gunshot wounds. Any of Nevill's next four bullet wounds are fatal so we can presume that he wasn't shot again before the struggle in the kitchen. Has anyone considered that the killer did not know where the extra ammunition was for the rifle? Wouldn't Sheila or Jeremy know where the ammunition was and have at least loaded a few rounds before Nevill got downstairs?
Also, and i apologise in advance for going on and on about the twins being shot last, but doesn't the fact that the killer seems to head downstairs for ammunition add credence to the twins being shot last. It would seem odd to shoot the twins, go downstairs, reload, come back up again, shoot June and Nevill, go downstairs again, reload. That is, if you believe the killer went downstairs to reload. I would be interested to hear anyones thoughts on how and why Nevill got downstairs.
Apologies once again for being convoluted, hope you understand the points i am trying to make. I really believe, the killer thought this could all be done with ten rounds.
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I had to review these details again.... 8)><( but I found out something quite interesting as you do!
Neville was shot 8 times in total. He was shot 4 times in the bedroom and once as he attempted to get downstairs, only one bullet exited his body and was found just inside the bedroom door. He was hit by the three remaining shots as he expired in the kitchen.
June was shot 7 times in total, 3 of the bullets exited and were found on the bed on or near the pillows.
The thing is though, if Nevill had been shot 5 times before he even got downstairs to the kitchen he must have been in an awful state. Going by the pathologists report, the wounds most likely to have been sustained initially are those to the lip, jaw, left shoulder and left elbow and one more which had to be one of the other 4 head shots.
My question....how did that man ever survive those first initial woundings? He was a hero!
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Thanks for the reply John. There is no possible way Nevill would be moving anywhere with a 5th bullet wound upstairs. Anyone of his 4 headshots would have killed him instantly. The only explanation i have for the shell case on the stairs, is that it was carried up, from the kitchen on a policeman's shoe. Even that sounds a little far fetched to me. Either the shell casing map is inaccurate or one was moved from the kitchen. The shots to Nevill's head are in pairs in my opinion, not a singular and then three others. The last four shots were in the kitchen, have to be, otherwise someone is dragging him down the stairs, propping him up in a chair and shooting him again 3 times.
You make a good point about Nevill. His fight for life is remarkable and is another extremely sad factor in this massacre. The injuries he suffered from the beating with the rifle are tremendous and you have to read the pathology report several times to ascertain just how bad it was. The linear bruising to his forearms, indicate that Nevill was always on the defensive and phrasing this episode as a struggle is grossly inaccurate, in my opinion. Nevill struggled to survive and was absolutely battered.
A few questions for you John, Did Nevill end up in the chair by coincidence or was he put in the chair? If he was put in the chair, Why?
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Whichever side of the fence you are on, can anyone imagine being assaulted in such a brutal manner by ones own child? and in the knowledge that other members of ones immediately family have been or are about to suffer a similar fate? 8(8-)) As I personally think that it is beyond the realms of all possibilities that it was Sheila who committed the murders, how much worse would that feel if it was your only son, who you had given every opportunity of advantage in life and brought up in a christian household with values.... and you had witnessed him having wiped out two little boys and having shot your wife/his mother in her bed.
It's really too awful to think about Ralph's emotional suffering, albeit that it would have been limited in time. I pray he didn't witness June's shot between the eyes.
I won't even go there with the squeaky clean telephone.....
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Thanks for the reply John. There is no possible way Nevill would be moving anywhere with a 5th bullet wound upstairs. Anyone of his 4 headshots would have killed him instantly. The only explanation i have for the shell case on the stairs, is that it was carried up, from the kitchen on a policeman's shoe. Even that sounds a little far fetched to me. Either the shell casing map is inaccurate or one was moved from the kitchen. The shots to Nevill's head are in pairs in my opinion, not a singular and then three others. The last four shots were in the kitchen, have to be, otherwise someone is dragging him down the stairs, propping him up in a chair and shooting him again 3 times.
You make a good point about Nevill. His fight for life is remarkable and is another extremely sad factor in this massacre. The injuries he suffered from the beating with the rifle are tremendous and you have to read the pathology report several times to ascertain just how bad it was. The linear bruising to his forearms, indicate that Nevill was always on the defensive and phrasing this episode as a struggle is grossly inaccurate, in my opinion. Nevill struggled to survive and was absolutely battered.
A few questions for you John, Did Nevill end up in the chair by coincidence or was he put in the chair? If he was put in the chair, Why?
That is a very good suggestion Simong and one which certainly fits the known events. That bullet was probably trod on in the kitchen and taken part way up the stairs. Nevill must have been conscious in the kitchen otherwise there wouldn't have been the almighty struggle which the pathologist suggested took place.
I don't think we will ever know the circumstances of how he got into the chair but I suspect he collapsed in it. I can't see any gunman bothering to pick him up and put him in a chair. The more we hear about the struggle the more I am convinced that Sheila was not capable of such a prolonged and brutal assault..
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Whichever side of the fence you are on, can anyone imagine being assaulted in such a brutal manner by ones own child? and in the knowledge that other members of ones immediately family have been or are about to suffer a similar fate? 8(8-)) As I personally think that it is beyond the realms of all possibilities that it was Sheila who committed the murders, how much worse would that feel if it was your only son, who you had given every opportunity of advantage in life and brought up in a Christian household with values.... and you had witnessed him having wiped out two little boys and having shot your wife/his mother in her bed.
It's really too awful to think about Ralph's emotional suffering, albeit that it would have been limited in time. I pray he didn't witness June's shot between the eyes.
I won't even go there with the squeaky clean telephone.....
I will deal with your last point first if I may Amazon. The squeaky clean telephone was indeed a give away. If Nevill had used the phone he would have replaced the handset. If he was under threat of some kind he would have told Jeremy in those very first words that he was alleged to have uttered.
Jeremy says the call was ended. In order to do that someone would have to have replaced the handset or put their finger on the gravity switch plungers (http://www.telephonesuk.co.uk/images/small/746_image8a.jpg) (sorry about the technical term). So who does Jeremy suggest we blame for that? Nevill would never in a million years have allowed Sheila to interrupt his call no matter how many guns she may have had. This for me therefore was a sham, a poorly thought-out invention.
Nevill was extremely cautious of Jeremy but even he had no idea what he was planning for months. Jeremy played the game in the months prior to the murders extremely well. He endeared himself to Mrs Wilson and outwardly played the obedient son. He was not content on the farm however and this was most obvious to Nevill who had to work with him on a daily basis. As a farmers son I know the bonds that you normally make with your fellow workers but this just didn't seem to happen with Jeremy. Some on TT blame it on his upbringing, a deep seated resentment maybe at being given up as a child. Jealousy of his other two siblings who unlike him were wanted?
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I agree-I'm sure Sheila could have fired the rifle and hit the target enough times to seriously hurt someone with ten bullets. But I don't think for a moment she would have been capable of hitting the target so many times and reloading at least twice without damaging her nails or showing evidence of gun oil (or her victims' blood) on her skin and clothes. And that's before you add an almighty struggle with Neville to the mix. The shootings have the hallmarks of having been executed by someone professional who knew what they were doing, not someone in a violent rage. Regardless of what "evidence" the Bamber is innocent camp come up with they simply do not have any logical or coherent arguments about how Sheila could have done all of this.
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Whichever side of the fence you are on, can anyone imagine being assaulted in such a brutal manner by ones own child? and in the knowledge that other members of ones immediately family have been or are about to suffer a similar fate? 8(8-)) As I personally think that it is beyond the realms of all possibilities that it was Sheila who committed the murders, how much worse would that feel if it was your only son, who you had given every opportunity of advantage in life and brought up in a christian household with values.... and you had witnessed him having wiped out two little boys and having shot your wife/his mother in her bed.
It's really too awful to think about Ralph's emotional suffering, albeit that it would have been limited in time. I pray he didn't witness June's shot between the eyes.
I won't even go there with the squeaky clean telephone.....
Well said Ami .... that's the real tragedy isn't it. What Nevill went through in that life or death struggle with his son is nothing but evil. I so wish I could have been there to batter Bamber beyond recognition as I am sure every decent member of this forum would too!
The same man Nevill that that c*** Tesco accuses of fathering the twins. That same grandmother June who that c*** Tesco accuses of doing some of the murders. And the legions of insults and lies made about Sheila are unrepeatable!
Come on CCRC do as David Boutflour another victim says .... it's time for an end to all this!
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Whichever side of the fence you are on, can anyone imagine being assaulted in such a brutal manner by ones own child? and in the knowledge that other members of ones immediately family have been or are about to suffer a similar fate? 8(8-)) As I personally think that it is beyond the realms of all possibilities that it was Sheila who committed the murders, how much worse would that feel if it was your only son, who you had given every opportunity of advantage in life and brought up in a christian household with values.... and you had witnessed him having wiped out two little boys and having shot your wife/his mother in her bed.
It's really too awful to think about Ralph's emotional suffering, albeit that it would have been limited in time. I pray he didn't witness June's shot between the eyes.
I won't even go there with the squeaky clean telephone.....
Well said Ami .... that's the real tragedy isn't it. What Nevill went through in that life or death struggle with his son is nothing but evil. I so wish I could have been there to batter Bamber beyond recognition as I am sure every decent member of this forum would too!
The same man Nevill that that c*** Tesco accuses of fathering the twins. That same grandmother June who that c*** Tesco accuses of doing some of the murders. And the legions of insults and lies made about Sheila are unrepeatable!
Come on CCRC do as David Boutflour another victim says .... it's time for an end to all this!
Not until after the 23rd apparently.
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I think the true story lies somewhere in those posts .... I like to think that after Bamber had shot the poor twins and the initial shots into Nevill and June he ran out of bullets. Nevill then chased Jeremy downstairs who was going after more bullets; Nevill got to him before he could reload and the massive struggle took place. Unfortunately Jeremy won as Nevill was already badly injured from the initial shots.
Nevill fought to his death to save his family and he must have know it was his own son he had to fight. How anyone could believe that Sheila overcame Nevill in such a struggle is quite beyond any commonsense in my opinion.
A very good point Tim. This supposed fight between a 6ft 4" 14 stone man and a petite. slender 8 stone uncoordinated woman that set the alarm bells ringing for DC Stan Jones. It just didnt add up to him. It was highly improbable that the waif-like Sheila could have physically overcame her towering father - injured or not. Jones reasoned that 'all Nevil had to do was fall on her to stop her in her tracks' I suspect that Bamber had - as you suggest - unexpectedly ran out of ammunition upstairs. June had already been shot but not totally incapacitated.
Bamber chased Nevil down the stairs where Nevil made a grab for the gun. he managed to get a firm grip of the barrel. The two men fought - one for life, the other death. The uninjured Bamber managed to wrest the rifle from Nevill's weakening grip and proceeded to turn the gun around and, using it as a club, batter the beleaguered Nevil into unconscienceness. He then had time to reload the rifle and adminisister the coup de grace to Nevil.
Meanwhile, poor June had managed to wriggle across the floor to the bedroom door, whereupon Bamber fresh from the fight in the kitchen spotted her crawling out of the bedroom door. He stepped over the now helpless June and shot her between the eyes, killing her instantly. Sheila was next. What he told her will probably never be known, but it was enough to rouse her from her sleep and get her into her parents bedroom. I suspect that he told her to pray for June (hence the bible found at the scene)whom Bamber had admitted killing and threatened to harm her children in the same way (not knowing that Bamber had already shot them in their beds) if she did not comply. Whereupon he told her to close her eyes and lie down. He then swiftly pushed the rifle under her chin and pulled the trigger. Thinking she was dead Bamber went to survey his handiwork including the fatal mistake of putting the silencer back in the cupboard. On his return he realised to his horror that Sheila was still alive, her breathing shallow but still alive. He then shot her a second time - this time fatally. This is what I believe happened according to the evidence. However, the only person who really knows what happened that night is Jeremy Bamber himself. A scheming, manipulative, cunning psychopath. It is highly unlikely that he will ever admit to the appalling crimes. that he is undoubtedly responsible for.
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That is probably how the stock of the rifle came to be damaged. Maybe as Bamber swung the rifle to hit Nevill he clipped the lampshade shattering its glass. It is a pity the police didn't check his shoes for glass fragments>?
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Good point Jerry,
I dont think the police checked Bamber's shoes. They did ask for his clothes many days after the crime had already been committed. The problem was that much of the evidence was destroyed on Bamber's instructions - the police thinking that this was four muders and a suicide virtually closed the case down at this point. The cunning Bamber having already painted the picture for the hapless investigators, including those leading the case such as DCI 'Taff' Jones. Bamber must have thought by this stage he had gotten clean away with it.
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A point the other forum continually makes is that there was no physical evidence linking Jeremy to the murder scene (clothing etc). What they fail to realise is that he had at least a month to dispose of any evidence he may have had. There was one piece of evidence he couldn't get rid of though-the silencer. If he had disposed of it somewhere nearby it would prove his guilt, which was why he cleaned it and placed it back in the gun cupboard.
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Mike has just told reader to f..k off. Some forum owner, He sets a great example doesnt he? very proffessional.
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A point the other forum continually makes is that there was no physical evidence linking Jeremy to the murder scene (clothing etc). What they fail to realise is that he had at least a month to dispose of any evidence he may have had. There was one piece of evidence he couldn't get rid of though-the silencer. If he had disposed of it somewhere nearby it would prove his guilt, which was why he cleaned it and placed it back in the gun cupboard.
Yes, they keep saying that there is no evidence which places Jeremy at the scene. isn't that a bit strange when he was there not 4 hours earlier and apparently according to him took the rifle outside to look for rabbits. He says he didn't fire it. We don't believe him, he didn't take the rifle outside, he merely made sure that it was ready to go for his later rampage. He made sure that there would be a reason why his fingerprints were on the rifle. Problem for him though is that there weren't enough of them for someone who supposedly used the rfile routinely. Did they find sheila's prints on the magazine...NO. Why? Because Bamber wiped his off leaving it clean. Silly boy forgot to put Sheila's prints on the mag.
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Thanks for the reply John. There is no possible way Nevill would be moving anywhere with a 5th bullet wound upstairs. Anyone of his 4 headshots would have killed him instantly. The only explanation i have for the shell case on the stairs, is that it was carried up, from the kitchen on a policeman's shoe. Even that sounds a little far fetched to me. Either the shell casing map is inaccurate or one was moved from the kitchen. The shots to Nevill's head are in pairs in my opinion, not a singular and then three others. The last four shots were in the kitchen, have to be, otherwise someone is dragging him down the stairs, propping him up in a chair and shooting him again 3 times.
You make a good point about Nevill. His fight for life is remarkable and is another extremely sad factor in this massacre. The injuries he suffered from the beating with the rifle are tremendous and you have to read the pathology report several times to ascertain just how bad it was. The linear bruising to his forearms, indicate that Nevill was always on the defensive and phrasing this episode as a struggle is grossly inaccurate, in my opinion. Nevill struggled to survive and was absolutely battered.
A few questions for you John, Did Nevill end up in the chair by coincidence or was he put in the chair? If he was put in the chair, Why?
I think it far more leikely that the shell was simply kicked there either by Nevil or his assailant Bamber. Bamber fired a series of bullets from the bedroom door into the bedroom (this is located immediately at the top of the stairs) It is highly likely that it was simply kicked while underfoot during the assault or when Nevil or Jeremy went downstairs.
Your point about the fight in the kitchen is an interesting one. However, I think we must rely on common sense to understand that such a struggle did, in fact take place. I say this because according to the evidence Nevil was frogmarched downstairs at riflepoint (evidenced by the burn marks found on his back) We have to remember that it is highly likely that Nevil had witnessed the shooting of his wife June and would have been certain that he was next. I believe that Bamber at this time had run out of ammunition. At this point Nevil made a grab for the gun and probably managed to get a firm grip of the rifle's barrel. It is likely that the two men strugled violently for control of the gun - knocking over the kitchen chairs, and careening into the kitchen table upsetting the sugar bowl and other sundry items. Nevil must have fought with everything a wounded man could possibly muster, but alas the uninjured and younger Bamber managed to wrest the rifle from nevil and proceeded to turn it around and use it as a club. It was at this pointt hat I believe that Nevil sustained the appalling injuries you highlighted in your text. Jeremy then swung the rifle so viciously that the wooden stock splintered with the force (this broken stock was later found on the floor) I believe that this knocked Nevil unconscious, whereupon Bamber reloaded the rifle (the bullets were conveniently located on the sideboard next to the telephone) and shot Nevil through the head 4 times. It was at this point I believe that he slumped into the jaunty and precarious angle at which he was later found - sitting on an upturned chair that was deposited thus during the struggle.
Ironically this was Bmaber's biggest mistake. In order for the police to believe that Sheila had run amok with a rifle it was imperative that they be shot in their beds. Bamber did not count on Nevil's resistance nor the fact that the human body can sometimes withstand such appalling wounds (June was shot multiple times, Sheila twice and Nevil 8 times)
Make no mistake despite his appalling wounds, Nevil fought like a tiger in order to try to protect his beloved wife, his daughter and her two sons. It must have been heartbreaking for Nevil to realise that the very boy he had given a name to, a home, a family and most things that people can only dream about was indeed a psychopathic, greedy, arrogant, wastrel he suspected.