UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: sadie on October 31, 2013, 09:07:54 PM
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Who could carry little Madeleine, prone to waking up, without a blanket in the chilly night without her protesting ? A stranger ? Come on !
What if she were drugged?
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What if she were drugged?
You have no idea how complex it is to drug a child of that age if you are a stranger.
Unfortunately perhaps I'm not sleeping beauty waiting for charming prince !
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You have no idea how complex it is to drug a child of that age if you are a stranger.
Unfortunately perhaps I'm not sleeping beauty waiting for charming prince !
What evidence do you have that it is difficult to drug a child. I can think of many available methods open to anyone with a few contacts and a little money!
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indeed.
chloroform burns so that 100% rules it out being used on the twins. It also has a very pungent sweet smell which is long lasting and two doctors would definitely recognise the smell.
Oral drugs take a long time to act so couldn't be used given the timeframe any potential abductor would have.
The only other option would be injection. Well anyone with kids knows that an injection makes kids scream. It would be inconceivable that Madeline wouldn't scream if she was being injected with a drug. That would wake the twins and then you would be left with 3 screaming kids. Hardly conducive to carry out an abduction.
So if we assume she was abducted then the abduction was carried out without drugging Madeline. Alternatively if Madeline was drugged then her parents must have done it for a quiet night and an abductor made use of that fact.
Obviously the second option would reflect worse on her parents than just leaving them alone for the evening.
If I were an evil genius intent on abducting a child quietly I would use something like (Durogesic DTrans®) apiod patch, which in high dosage on a small child would induce moderate hypnosis in a matter of minutes- it could be applied while the child was sleeping or while they were awake. The child would be unaware it had been placed on them, and it could be removed and returned to ensure continued hypnosis.
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If I were an evil genius intent on abducting a child quietly I would use something like (Durogesic DTrans®) apiod patch, which in high dosage on a small child would induce moderate hypnosis in a matter of minutes- it could be applied while the child was sleeping or while they were awake. The child would be unaware it had been placed on them, and it could be removed and returned to ensure continued hypnosis.
It is a painkiller and there's no "moderate hypnosis" in a matter of a few minutes (that anyhow leaves time for the child to scream)
http://www.mydurogesicdtrans.co.uk/faq (http://www.mydurogesicdtrans.co.uk/faq)
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I have no idea why drugs are been discussed on this topic.
For those who have remained on topic - thankyou.
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thanks - I was not apportioning blame.
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Thanks for that, I wasn't aware of that product. I guess that does open the possibilities of drugging as there does seem to be an active open market for the patches. I'd be interested to see more details upon the speed of action and other areas that may concern its use for knocking people out cold.
EDIT: Ok I've found more details and it looks as though the patches wouldn't work either.
How soon will Durogesic® DTrans® work?
The first Durogesic® DTrans® patch will start to work slowly. This may take as long as one day, so your doctor may give you extra painkillers until your Durogesic® DTrans® patch starts working completely. After this, the Durogesic® DTrans® patch should help to relieve pain continuously and you should be able to stop taking these extra painkillers. However sometimes you may still need extra painkillers.
My emphasis.
That is at therapeutic levels and with the appropriate dose per kg. If you used a full strength patch, initiation would be in minutes. I know, I have used them. There are two main effects of opioids- sedation and pain relief; both initiate if a high enough level is given. Transdermal transfer is quicker than enteral dosing but not quite as quick as buccal or rectal. The great advantage of using a patch is that control could be maintained to avoid over dosage- if the patch is removed, the blood levels fall quickly and so you would not have the same problems of inhibition of respiration that might otherwise occur.
Certainly bupranorphine given sub lingually (only a little slower than transdermally) is effective for pain relief and hypnosis after three or four minutes when given at higher per kg doses.
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It is a painkiller and there's no "moderate hypnosis" in a matter of a few minutes (that anyhow leaves time for the child to scream)
http://www.mydurogesicdtrans.co.uk/faq (http://www.mydurogesicdtrans.co.uk/faq)
High per kg doses are effective very quickly for both pain relief and drowsiness.
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Do you happen to have information I can read to support your case?
You would need to look at various clinical papers available through MedLine.
The facts are:
Opioids are very simple molecules compared with most prescription drugs. Their uptake by the body ids simple and requires no internal modulation.
Using non-enteral routes (by mouth) increases the availability as they by-pass the liver which lifts out a great deal of the opioid on first pass before it reaches the rest of the body.
Opiods are sedative and Hypnotic and depend on blood concentrations that depend on body weight and so need to be carefully titrated to avoid under or over dosage. Administration is quickest intra-venously, then intra muscularly, then rectally, then buccally, then transdermally. Administration of a large initial dose in any case lifts blood levels quickly- using a large adult patch on a small child would bring opiod levels in the blood very quickly to therapeutic and possibly toxic levels (the patches come with strong warnings to keep them away from children.)
All of the above can probably be googled for in various places, but obviously there will not be a 'how to sedate a child with patches' page!
There are several other methods to quickly sedate a child, but I am reluctant to share them for obvious reasons.
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You would need to look at various clinical papers available through MedLine.
The facts are:
Opioids are very simple molecules compared with most prescription drugs. Their uptake by the body ids simple and requires no internal modulation.
Using non-enteral routes (by mouth) increases the availability as they by-pass the liver which lifts out a great deal of the opioid on first pass before it reaches the rest of the body.
Opiods are sedative and Hypnotic and depend on blood concentrations that depend on body weight and so need to be carefully titrated to avoid under or over dosage. Administration is quickest intra-venously, then intra muscularly, then rectally, then buccally, then transdermally. Administration of a large initial dose in any case lifts blood levels quickly- using a large adult patch on a small child would bring opiod levels in the blood very quickly to therapeutic and possibly toxic levels (the patches come with strong warnings to keep them away from children.)
All of the above can probably be googled for in various places, but obviously there will not be a 'how to sedate a child with patches' page!
There are several other methods to quickly sedate a child, but I am reluctant to share them for obvious reasons.
Would information on the use of patches or any of the other methods of sedating a child quickly be available and their use be understood by your average man in the street ?
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Would information on the use of patches or any of the other methods of sedating a child quickly be available and their use be understood by your average man in the street ?
Of course not and no doctor will confirm patches have a rapid effect. Too much TinTin reading !
Sedating a child is complex, if the child isn't supposed to wake up and see you. All quick effect pads have a very short effect and leave traces. A long effect, that would allow to carry limp Madeleine around, with just a light pyjama on, requires definitively a device that obviously Smithman hadn't and that only doctors know how to handle.
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too many people wanted to take the original dilemna then renamed about Smith thread off topic.
I believe admin/mods have started this thread for those on drugs
Some posts remain and some don't.
Do we have to be on drugs to participate, or just have an opinion on whether the child was drugged?
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Do we have to be on drugs to participate, or just have an opinion on whether the child was drugged?
as it is not my thread I could not possibly comment.