Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Redblossom on January 22, 2014, 11:23:44 AM
Title: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: Redblossom on January 22, 2014, 11:23:44 AM
According to GMs statement of 10 th May KM made her check at 10 03 and after ten minutes he wondered where she was
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 22, 2014, 01:01:08 PM
According to GMs statement of 10 th May KM made her check at 10 03 and after ten minutes he wondered where she was
03 ! Funny attempt.. The question of the exact time of the alarm turned out to be pertinent only when Smithman was possibly identified in September. But Smithman knew who he met and that he had to have an alibi, just in case. Mr McCann attempted to push forward not Mrs McCann's checking time, but her return/alert time. He's the only one to say that she took ages. In the night of the 3rd : at about 22.00 Kate discovered the facts On the 4th : At about 22.00 it was his wife Kate who went to check on the children. In the typed time line : 2200: (approx): KM leaves table to check children in 5A. On the 10th : it being 22h03, he turned to alert KATE that it was time for her to go... About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her lateness On the 7th of Sept : The third check was made by Kate at around 22:00. He does not know how long it was before Kate returned, but he does remember that shortly before she returned he was thinking of going to see what was going on, as it seemed a long time
But Mr O'Brien and the waiter indicate the same time for his return (21:45) and his meal arrived around 21:55, a couple of minutes before Mrs McCann launched the alarm (the uneaten beef proves it).
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: Redblossom on January 22, 2014, 01:12:07 PM
but according to Km in her book she took about 15/30 seconds to check the apartment before running out again...not ten minutes, sorry, I dont have a quote
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 22, 2014, 01:22:17 PM
Mr McCann was indeed at the Tapas table when the alarm was launched. Lying about this had no justification at all and the group would be aware of it. He was at the table, but the alarm was launched before 10.
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: Redblossom on January 22, 2014, 01:28:38 PM
Mr McCann was indeed at the Tapas table when the alarm was launched. Lying about this had no justification at all and the group would be aware of it. He was at the table, but the alarm was launched before 10.
Thats what so many people remember, a very earlier time
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 22, 2014, 01:33:09 PM
but according to Km in her book she took about 15/30 seconds to check the apartment before running out again...not ten minutes, sorry, I dont have a quote
On the 4th : At around 10pm, the interviewee went to check on the children On the 6th of Sept, her last words were : At 10PM she got up from the table, In "Madeleine" : At 10pm I went back to the apartment myself.. I checked the wardrobe... all within about fifteen seconds, This is coherent with knowing in a nutshell that Madeleine had been taken.
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 22, 2014, 01:42:52 PM
On the 4th : At around 10pm, the interviewee went to check on the children On the 6th of Sept, her last words were : At 10PM she got up from the table, In "Madeleine" : At 10pm I went back to the apartment myself.. I checked the wardrobe... all within about fifteen seconds, This is coherent with knowing in a nutshell that Madeleine had been taken.
Putting the timeline forward is not going to work. MO said she left to check at 9.50. Russ was back at the table at 9.45 and waited 5 minutes for his reheated steak. He got that when Kate left to check(9.50-52). She was back within 3 minutes (9.55) so they started outdoor searches just before 10pm. Smithman sighting is at 10pm or possibly an exact time 10.03pm 8)-)))
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 22, 2014, 01:44:38 PM
Thats what so many people remember, a very earlier time
5 minutes after the alarm, Mr McCann was neither in the Tapas resort looking into the pool nor at home. Keeping in mind that in a nutshell Mrs McCann knew that Madeleine had been taken, where was he ? Certainly not calling the police or asking the Tapas staff to call.
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 22, 2014, 01:47:22 PM
Putting the timeline forward is not going to work. MO said she left to check at 9.50. Russ was back at the table at 9.45 and waited 5 minutes for his reheated steak. He got that when Kate left to check(9.50-52). She was back within 3 minutes (9.55) so they started outdoor searches just before 10pm. Smithman sighting is at 10pm.
According to the first and independent or semi-independent statements, that's what happened. And nobody knows where Mr McCann was around 10.
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 22, 2014, 01:55:37 PM
This is an important point that SY should have examined. Mr McCann's credibility is based on his presence at the table with the group when the alarm was launched. That would work if it could be proved that the disappearance occurred before.. But what if it didn't ?
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 22, 2014, 02:02:01 PM
Putting the timeline forward is not going to work. MO said she left to check at 9.50. Russ was back at the table at 9.45 and waited 5 minutes for his reheated steak. He got that when Kate left to check(9.50-52). She was back within 3 minutes (9.55) so they started outdoor searches just before 10pm. Smithman sighting is at 10pm or possibly an exact time 10.03pm 8)-)))
No pathfinder,
Gerry was most definitely at the tapas bar at 10pm, there were 'dozens' of witnesses.
He most definitely wasn't seen by the Smith family carrying his deceased child toward the ocean,
Kate & Gerry had absolutely no involvement whatsoever in their daughters disappearance & it was burglars what done it.
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: Redblossom on January 22, 2014, 02:04:19 PM
Gerry and where he was at 10 or just before or after and when the alarm was raised etc,its really confusing me now lol so Im bowing out of the discussion for now..
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 22, 2014, 02:18:47 PM
He most definitely wasn't seen by the Smith family carrying his deceased child toward the ocean,
Kate & Gerry had absolutely no involvement whatsoever in their daughters disappearance & it was burglars what done it.
Yes the media have fallen hook line and sinker for that one and many others! The McCann's have always kept to the 30 minute timeline checks - no wonder 9, 9.30, 10pm?
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: Redblossom on January 23, 2014, 09:47:20 PM
It's interesting to compare 1st and 2nd statements. The motive is simple, if you were involved then you know that Smithman was carrying Madeleine away and you would try to suppress him and Tannerman popping up was like striking gold. The discrepancies and pyjamas relate and point towards him while Smithman is sneaking away. MO put a major spanner in the words - the shutters weren't raised or the window open when he did his check. That's how they knew Madeleine had been abducted because of the raised shutters and open window but that would have meant that Madeleine left after 9.30 which would rule Tannerman out as being the abductor. Now they have to try and explain that with an opportunist burglar who magically happened to appear 30 minutes after Tannerman but never entered the apartment via the window. When the window evidence points to one person and no glove marks found. There's one interesting thing about the Tannerman sighting and that is the time that it happened because Madeleine wasn't in the apartment when MO did his check at 9.30pm IMO.
Matt saw no open shutters window or curtains.....years later their statements were changed (as in what they said in media interviews and their documentaries) from finding the curtains open or running over to open them. 2007...to they were actually closed still at 10 pm but the wind opened them..2009 and beynd
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: Redblossom on January 23, 2014, 10:04:14 PM
Anyway Im sure Im notthe only one who feels stuck in a wheel of groundhog day, weve had these discussions before
There's one interesting thing about the Tannerman sighting and that is the time it happened because Madeleine wasn't in the apartment when MO did his check at 9.30pm IMO.
You mean when MO checked on his daughter ? Well, at that time Madeleine was on the veranda I suppose.
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 23, 2014, 11:10:21 PM
Compliance. He's not a liar, therefore he lied very badly, describing a mixture of his bedroom and Mr O'Brien's one, having no idea that he couldn't see one of the twins from his position and also since the twins were on their stomachs he couldn't possibly see them breathing.
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: Redblossom on January 23, 2014, 11:14:17 PM
Compliance. He's not a liar, therefore he lied very badly, describing a mixture of his bedroom and Mr O'Brien's one, having no idea that he couldn't see one of the twins from his position and also since the twins were on their stomachs he couldn't possibly see them breathing.
Ok thanks
The strangest thing about matts check is he didnt look in the room to see madeleine was there...BUT he went into another room to look for her....what a wierd strange bunch of people
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 23, 2014, 11:18:18 PM
The strangest thing about matts check is he didnt look in the room to see madeleine was there...BUT he went into another room to look for her....what a wierd strange bunch of people
?{)(** Mr Oldfield has no training in lying. Not like his colleague Mr so and so, who had a strong motive, we must admit.
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: Redblossom on January 23, 2014, 11:31:31 PM
?{)(** Mr Oldfield has no training in lying. Not like his colleague Mr so and so, who had a strong motive, we must admit.
Pair of them look like liars here
From 4 20
Nite nite lol
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 23, 2014, 11:37:04 PM
Matt wouldn't necessarily have known which bed Madeleine was sleeping in as the cots were blocking the view of the bed under the window. I think Matt is telling the truth as he has revealed important information especially Gerry leaving the tapas bar as soon as he got back from checking at the shutters which he found unusual. Everyone said Matt left the tapas with Russ at 9.25. Kate or Gerry didn't leave so he did their check as he said he would do to Kate. He doesn't look to be in on anything to me.
MO is a very good actor but not IMO - his check at 12:40 (Gerry looks concerned and the only time he put his head in to check Madeleine was in bed was on the night she disappeared - another revealing fact)
Gerry nearly having a heart attack from 10:05 and then Jane laughs at him @)(++(*
Smithman 14:15
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 24, 2014, 12:08:15 AM
Matt wouldn't necessarily have known which bed Madeleine was sleeping in as the cots were blocking the view of the bed under the window. I think Matt is telling the truth as he has revealed important information especially Gerry leaving the tapas bar as soon as he got back from checking at the shutters which he found unusual.
Mr Oldfield never entered that flat, it is obvious. Apart from the erroneous description of the flat and the twins, he doesn't make sure Madeleine is in her bed, especially because if he can't see one of the twins, he can see the window bed that is empty.. This is a typically compliance check, but he couldn't be asked to invent that Madeleine was there or not.
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 24, 2014, 12:31:09 AM
Mr Oldfield never entered that flat, it is obvious. Apart from the erroneous description of the flat and the twins, he doesn't make sure Madeleine is in her bed, especially because if he can't see one of the twins, he can see the window bed that is empty.. This is a typically compliance check, but he could be asked to invent that Madeleine was there or not.
At around 9.25pm, the interviewee went into his apartment and Madeleine's apartment to check on the children. He states that the door of the bedroom that was occupied by Madeleine and the twins, was open and that there was enough light in the bedroom for him to see the twins in their cots. That he couldn't see the bed occupied by Madeleine, but as it was all quiet, he deduced that she was sleeping. (MO 4 Sep)
Matt wouldn't necessarily recall the correct layout of the apartment. That room was dark so what colour he thought the curtains were I can forgive as an innocent mistake. Gerry admitted in the documentary that the only time he went in to the bedroom to check that Madeleine was in bed was on the night she disappeared - another revealing fact. And Kate was moaning at the table that he was gone for a long time watching the football 8)-))) Now everyone knows why that time period 9-9.10 is crucial and his reaction when Jane recalled it.
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 24, 2014, 12:41:20 AM
At around 9.25pm, the interviewee went into his apartment and Madeleine's apartment to check on the children. He states that the door of the bedroom that was occupied by Madeleine and the twins, was open and that there was enough light in the bedroom for him to see the twins in their cots. That he couldn't see the bed occupied by Madeleine, but as it was all quiet, he deduced that she was sleeping. (MO 4 Sep)
Matt wouldn't necessarily recall the correct layout of the apartment. That room was dark so what colour he thought the curtains were I can forgive as an innocent mistake. Gerry admitted in the documentary that the only time he went in to the bedroom to check that Madeleine was in bed was on the night she disappeared - another revealing fact. And Kate was moaning at the table that he was gone for a long time watching the football 8)-))) Now everyone knows why that time period 9-9.10 is crucial and his reaction when Jane recalled it.
Can you think of one reason, just one, that would have made Mr Oldfield enter in a (at that time definitively) dark flat (Mrs McCann couldn't see if that was the bedding or Madeleine) where he had never been to just listen to kids ? A reason that would explain why he didn't listen at the window ? Taking into account that his meal was getting cold at the Tapas..
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 24, 2014, 01:15:32 AM
What they both said. Kate told Matt that the patio door was unlocked.
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 24, 2014, 02:01:32 AM
5 minutes after the alarm, Mr McCann was neither in the Tapas resort looking into the pool nor at home. Keeping in mind that in a nutshell Mrs McCann knew that Madeleine had been taken, where was he ? Certainly not calling the police or asking the Tapas staff to call.
Nor running around the town with a dead child, just as his wife was instigating a search.
Whoever came up with such a preposterous suggestion?
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 24, 2014, 02:03:11 AM
Mr Oldfield never entered that flat, it is obvious. Apart from the erroneous description of the flat and the twins, he doesn't make sure Madeleine is in her bed, especially because if he can't see one of the twins, he can see the window bed that is empty.. This is a typically compliance check, but he couldn't be asked to invent that Madeleine was there or not.
You claim that as a fact Anne. I thought we were not allowed to do that?
The object of Matthew's visit was not to check that all the children were still in the apartment - it was to establish whether they were all still asleep. As there were no sounds to say anything different he would naturally take that as evidence that they were all still asleep. Nothing odd about that - how many of us have paused outside the bedroom door of our sleeping children - and simply listened and not gone into check whether they were still actually there?
There was no need for him to take any particular notice of the surroundings - he was satisfied that they were all still asleep - and so 'mission accomplished' as far as he was concerned.
The idea that he should be able to accurately give a description of an apartment he had only spent seconds in - and had no reason to keep a mental note of is unrealistic - and once again an example of people talking with the benefit of hindsight which he did not have at the time IMO.
I do not believe he lied at all - but that doesn't mean his recollections were completely accurate - and there is nothing odd about that either. imo.
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 24, 2014, 11:25:53 AM
You claim that as a fact Anne. I thought we were not allowed to do that?
The object of Matthew's visit was not to check that all the children were still in the apartment - it was to establish whether they were all still asleep. As there were no sounds to say anything different he would naturally take that as evidence that they were all still asleep. Nothing odd about that - how many of us have paused outside the bedroom door of our sleeping children - and simply listened and not gone into check whether they were still actually there?
There was no need for him to take any particular notice of the surroundings - he was satisfied that they were all still asleep - and so 'mission accomplished' as far as he was concerned.
The idea that he should be able to accurately give a description of an apartment he had only spent seconds in - and had no reason to keep a mental note of is unrealistic - and once again an example of people talking with the benefit of hindsight which he did not have at the time IMO.
I do not believe he lied at all - but that doesn't mean his recollections were completely accurate - and there is nothing odd about that either. imo.
Sorry, Benice, I should have said "imo", because it's not a fact but an opinion. The fact that Mr Oldfield described erroneously a dark bedroom proves nothing except that either he for some reason insisted in giving details or was asked those details by the PJ. My opinion isn't based also on the fact he could see only one twin (he might have extrapoled the second) and not even on the fact that he couldn't see their little chests moving because they were the other way round. My opinion doesn't take into account the fact that he actually did see an empty bed in that bedroom without being alerted. My opinion is rather based on logic : if the McCanns wanted the kids to be looked at (a thing Mr McCann says he never did), they would have given him their key, quickest and simplest way. You don't ask someone who never did it in day light to go in the dark through 3 gates, a sliding, two types of drawn curtains, a TV set angle, etc.
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 24, 2014, 11:34:37 AM
Did she ? Who said so ? Mr McCann seems to infer that it was common knowledge.
"I went up the second check with Russell, so he's a pretty slow eater, so it may well have been sort of closer to sort of twenty past, twenty-five past nine, sometime round there before we did the next check. Erm, so I went to check on G**** and I stood up and Russell stood up and said he was going to go and check as well and Kate stood up and I said, you know, do you want us to go and check on, erm, do you want me to go and check on your kids, erm, and she said yes. And I think I offered at that point just because we had been together all week and we had similar routines and it just kind of seemed like a nice thing to do that would save her a journey back up and, you know, it may or it may not have been different. But, erm, I said that and she said yeah fine and she said that the patio door was open and go in through there.
So I went back and did the check on five 'A', on Madeleine and the kids, erm, and went back through the patio entrance, so through the gate, through the patio doors, erm, there was, it was light enough to see through the apartment and there sort of a little table light on the right at the end of the sofa and when you walk into the room, you could see straight into it, because the door was open. Erm, I've spent a lot of time debating how far the door was open, from previous questioning, and, you know, it wasn't flat back against the wall, because that would have looked odd, it was just sort of halfway open, so it seemed slightly unusual that it should be so wide open, because you could see straight into the middle of the room from the angle that you approach it.."
So I approached the room but I didn't actually go in because you could see the twins in the cots and one of the, you could see the twins in the cots because they're in with, sort of the cots were in the middle of the room with sort of a gap of about sort of maybe a foot between the two, the cots had sort of got that fabric end and sort of a mesh side, so you could see the sides and you could see them, erm, see them breathing and there were two there and it was all completely quiet. And the other things you could see in the room, there was a, there was another bed at the back underneath the window at the far side and you could see the end of the bed, another bed here. And because I was looking for, you know, well people say, well why didn't you go in the room, why didn't you check on Madeleine, you were, you said you'd go and check, but it was just that, we were just satisfying ourselves that nobody was upset and awake and crying.
You know, nobody was awake, you thought, if something, just one, it'd be, it'd sort of feel a bit odd, you know, from the draughts, you know, when Kate went in something about the door shutting, there was, I presume, a through draught. So I just sort of went towards the doorway, I didn't step over the threshold, I didn't see Madeleine and I didn't check, I turned round and came back out, said all was quiet when I got back to the table and then we went on with food.
I can't see the shutters because the curtains were shut and, they're similar curtains to the ones you've got in there, and you just get an impression of just like green and yellow, but they were closed, they weren't sort of blowing about, because I'm sure I'd have noticed if there was sort of movement like that.
4078 "And you said when you went in you went in through the patio door?"
Reply "Yeah"
4078 "Or the poolside door?"
Reply "Yeah".
4078 "How did you know to go through there?"
Reply "Well Kate said that that one was open".
4078 "And when did she say that?"
Reply "When I offered to go and, erm, go and look".
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 24, 2014, 11:38:57 AM
One year after... and nobody (at the table) corroborating this. Nice man.
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: jassi on January 24, 2014, 11:41:18 AM
I read it as Matt saying that HE sat down, not the McCanns.
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 24, 2014, 11:43:19 AM
One year after... and nobody (at the table) corroborating this. Nice man.
The simple fact is that Gerry and Kate never done that check as Matt & Russ were doing checks so he said to save her going he would do it. I don't find anything strange about it.
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 24, 2014, 11:44:22 AM
The simple fact is that Gerry and Kate never done that check as Matt & Russ were doing checks so he said to save her going he would do it. I don't find anything strange about it.
Then you believe they were doing all the checks they said they did, in spite of what an independent witness said ! The AG didn't.
Will you at least agree it was an audio check (except for one twin) ? Then, if you agree, why didn't he do it at the window ?
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 24, 2014, 12:18:46 PM
We know that Mr McCann didn't call the police on his cell phone nor asked the Tapas staff to do it for him. Where was he ?
And I recall, certainly me, erm, erm, Dave, Matt and I think initially at least Gerry, just said ‘Look, let’s just’, erm, ‘let’s just split up and find’, erm, you know, ‘see if we can find her, see if she’s just wandered out’. (Russ)
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 24, 2014, 12:44:54 PM
Then you believe they were doing all the checks they said they did, in spite of what an independent witness said ! The AG didn't.
Will you at least agree it was an audio check (except for one twin) ? Then, if you agree, why didn't he do it at the window ?
I disagree on this issue. Matt did a window listening check just before 9pm and when he arrived back Gerry left to check again after he had just done it which is very unusual. Matt also explains this was the first time he had done an inside check for anyone else.
"After we’d eaten the starters I needed to go to the toilet and Matt and I said we would go and check on the children." (Russ)
"I stood up and Russell stood up and said he was going to go and check as well and Kate stood up and I said, you know, do you want us to go and check on, erm, do you want me to go and check on your kids, erm, and she said yes. And I think I offered at that point just because we had been together all week and we had similar routines and it just kind of seemed like a nice thing to do that would save her a journey back up and, you know, it may or it may not have been different. But, erm, I said that and she said yeah fine and she said that the patio door was open and go in through there. And there was me and Russell as well, so, erm, you know, it seemed, at the time, a very reasonable thing to do, even though it was the first time that we'd certainly done it." (Matt)
That after this check, he returned to the restaurant, saying that all the children were asleep. However, Gerry, Madeleine's father, went to the area of the apartments to check for himself if the children were asleep. (MO 4 May Statement)
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: jassi on January 24, 2014, 01:03:27 PM
Was Matt's apartment accessible the rear patio area, or did he have to enter via the carpark side? If the latter, did he exit the McCanns via the patio and then go round to the other side?
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 24, 2014, 01:18:37 PM
Was Matt's apartment accessible the rear patio area, or did he have to enter via the carpark side? If the latter, did he exit the McCanns via the patio and then go round to the other side?
All ground floors were accessible through the patios. Mr Oldfield could, but didn't, have first entered the 5A through the patio, then come out through the door, since it wasn't locked. Actually they all could have used the 5A as a short cut, taking care of shutting the door only on the way back.
Mr Payne, after seeing the angels, went out through the patio, though he had to change cloths for the tennis...
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: Redblossom on January 24, 2014, 01:21:56 PM
Was Matt's apartment accessible the rear patio area, or did he have to enter via the carpark side? If the latter, did he exit the McCanns via the patio and then go round to the other side?
Matts patio doors were accessible via the ltitle alleyway but they were always locked at night. He went to his flat first via the carpark, did his check, then went to Russells, where he found out his daughter wasnt well so he would be staying, then he went to the Mccanns apartment....possibly by using Russells back door as his statement of 10 May says he took the quickest route to the Mccanns flat
Eta oops cross posted with Anne
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 24, 2014, 01:24:44 PM
Matts patio doors were accessible via the ltitle alleyway but they were always locked at night. He went to his flat first via the carpark, did his check, then went to Russells, where he found out his daughter wasnt well so he would be staying, then he went to the Mccanns apartment....possibly by using Russells back door as his statement of 10 May says he took the quickest route to the Mccanns flat
Eta oops cross posted with Anne
Yes that's what I read. Matt returned to the tapas after his final check at 5A and informed Jane that her daughter wasn't well. Jane quickly finished her main meal and then left. Thanks.
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 24, 2014, 01:28:02 PM
The quickest (time) route to the McCann flat wouldn't be passing through the O'Brien patio (always shuttered), which could be shorter only of 6/7 meters.
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: Carana on January 24, 2014, 01:38:38 PM
All ground floors were accessible through the patios. Mr Oldfield could, but didn't, have first entered the 5A through the patio, then come out through the door, since it wasn't locked. Actually they all could have used the 5A as a short cut, taking care of shutting the door only on the way back.
Mr Payne, after seeing the angels, went out through the patio, though he had to change cloths for the tennis...
Which door?
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 24, 2014, 01:49:00 PM
Logic is still missing in many directions. Any police officer would say that interviews after a year have to be taken with a pinch of salt.
The McCann, who claimed different motives to enter through the patio, had a good reason to do it for basic audio checks : it was really shorter. They only had to climb the steps and, no need to slide the door-window, they would listen. That's more or less what they always did. Mr McCann said he never entered the children's bedroom and Mrs McCann was ready to leave at 10 pm if.... the fatal door etc. For the McCann, listening at the door-window was like, for the others, to listen to the bedroom shutters. Just a bit quicker.
As Mr McCann, 20 minutes before, had made a visual check, was there a need to make another visual one, since they usually only listened ? Mr Oldfield had a reason to enter in his own flat : his daughter hadn't been checked for half an hour and it had been only an audio check. Why had the case of the little McCanns to be different ? Why didn't Mr McCann say to Mr Oldfield he heard no crying at 9:10 ?
But this is not all. Mrs McCann, at 10pm, went to check only on her children. Why didn't she offer Mr Oldfield or was asked by him or went alone instead of with him ?
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 24, 2014, 01:51:20 PM
The quickest (time) route to the McCann flat wouldn't be passing through the O'Brien patio (always shuttered), which could be shorter only of 6/7 meters.
I dont think Matt exiting the front of 5D and walking through the car park , out and back down the corner to 5A is quicker than going out if 5D back door, more than 6/7 metres difference surely, anyway, doesnt matter
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: jassi on January 24, 2014, 01:58:52 PM
I dont think Matt exiting the front of 5D and walking through the car park , out and back down the corner to 5A is quicker than going out if 5D back door, more than 6/7 metres difference surely, anyway, doesnt matter
The back (patio) doors can't be locked from the outside. Did Matt also leave his patio door unlocked ?
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 24, 2014, 02:07:10 PM
The quickest (time) route to the McCann flat wouldn't be passing through the O'Brien patio (always shuttered), which could be shorter only of 6/7 meters.
I think Matt left via front door from Russell's through the car park and then back down to 5A. Saying going through the patio first then changing it to gate first then patio door confused the situation.
"I went in to check on G**** and actually went in through the door, unlocked the door, looked in, into her room, all fine, came back out, shut the door, erm, went over to his (Russ) apartment and he said that E*** had been sick so he was staying back with her. So I went back and did the check on five 'A', on Madeleine and the kids, erm, and went back through the patio entrance, so through the gate, through the patio doors." (Matt)
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: Redblossom on January 24, 2014, 02:08:09 PM
The back (patio) doors can't be locked from the outside. Did Matt also leave his patio door unlocked ?
No he didnt, Im just saying its possible Matt left through the patio doors of Russells flat to go check in 5A as this seems the quickest way and he said he used the quickest way
Eta http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-10MAY.htm
6th para under PART II
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 24, 2014, 02:11:22 PM
No he didnt, Im just saying its possible Matt left through the patio doors of Russells flat to go check in 5A as this seems the quickest way and he said he used the quickest way
I think Matt left via Russell's front door as that's where he was when talking to Russ. He probably went straight through the car park and around to 5A.
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: Redblossom on January 24, 2014, 02:13:04 PM
I think Matt left via Russell's front door as that's where he was when talking to Russ. He probably went straight through the car park and around to 5A.
Well I dont know, but does it really matter? How he got to 5a?
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 24, 2014, 02:20:36 PM
and went back through the patio entrance, so through the gate, through the patio doors." (Matt)
Why "back" ? This is a rog, no lost in translation here.
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 24, 2014, 02:25:28 PM
From Red's link:
To this end, he took the quickest route between ROB's apartment and the side garden gate entrance to the rear patio of the McCann residence, to which he gained access through the glass sliding door into the apartment lounge. The door was closed but not locked as KM had said it would be.
Consequently, it had been an enormous surprise to receive the news of the disappearance of small MBM. . By the way, he clarifies that that news had been communicated to all the friends who were in the Tapas by KM subsequent to her having personally been to her flat to check that her children were well.
The question asked, he relates that she had gone there alone to do that at 21:50. (MO 10 May)
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 24, 2014, 02:32:46 PM
Ah and Mr Oldfield would have heard crying in the 5A when he checked inside on his daughter. Mrs Oldfield heard all the bathroom noises...
The Oldfield statements are so obviously absurd on the topic of the alleged 9:30 check that it is not amazing why the police pressured him, as Mr McCann reported. But it wasn't because, as suggested, he was suspected to have stolen Madeleine, it was because he was selling a badly told story. It is like Mr McCann writing in his blog that the media started to write rumours as if they were facts because they had no news, whereas those alleged rumours were precisely new facts ! This is called spinning.
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 24, 2014, 02:39:56 PM
the deponent explained that both [men] had suggested that KM remain in the restaurant [they] assuming the responsibility of verifying the children.
Nonetheless, and the question asked, he relates not being able to state exactly if the suggestion was made by himself or by ROB, adding not being able to clarify why it was done, but, in the case of it having been he [MO] to make such a suggestion it would have been due to, having spent days on holiday together, [there already being] a very close friendship with the couple [allowing him] to enter their apartment.
@)(++(* But the police were searching for a little girl and that didn't make them laugh.
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: Mr Moderator on January 24, 2014, 03:14:03 PM
As this discussion has strayed from the initial posts I have renamed it.
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: Carana on January 24, 2014, 03:45:07 PM
Ah and Mr Oldfield would have heard crying in the 5A when he checked inside on his daughter. Mrs Oldfield heard all the bathroom noises...
The Oldfield statements are so obviously absurd on the topic of the alleged 9:30 check that it is not amazing why the police pressured him, as Mr McCann reported. But it wasn't because, as suggested, he was suspected to have stolen Madeleine, it was because he was selling a badly told story. It is like Mr McCann writing in his blog that the media started to write rumours as if they were facts because they had no news, whereas those alleged rumours were precisely new facts ! This is called spinning.
Which rumours was he referrring to? And which of them have been established as new facts?
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 24, 2014, 03:48:52 PM
Matt was just unfortunate to be thrown right in the middle of this shambles. Rachael didn't hear any crying next door when she stayed in on WED. Everything the Oldfield's have said has thrown a spanner in the works. And Matt actually went back to do a reconstruction. He has revealed that Kate left 10 minutes earlier than the presumed 10pm to do her check and Gerry left straight away which he thought was strange after he had just checked (everyone now accounted for at the tapas). Jane revealed that Gerry was gone a long time where there was opportunity to do something unless he was watching the footy of course 8(0(* If they are covering for anyone then they are doing a really poor job - maybe setting others up lol.
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 24, 2014, 04:25:34 PM
Matt was just unfortunate to be thrown right in the middle of this shambles. Rachael didn't hear any crying next door when she stayed in on WED. Everything the Oldfield's have said has thrown a spanner in the works. And Matt actually went back to do a reconstruction. He has revealed that Kate left 10 minutes earlier than the presumed 10pm to do her check and Gerry left straight away which he thought was strange after he had just checked (everyone now accounted for at the tapas). Jane revealed that Gerry was gone a long time where there was opportunity to do something unless he was watching the footy of course 8(0(* If they are covering for anyone then they are doing a really poor job - maybe setting others up lol.
@)(++(* Mr Oldfield was just covering eventual accusations of neglect. He was interested in it, wasn't he ?
Title: Re: Lets have a look at the tapas-9 timeline and checks.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 24, 2014, 05:38:50 PM
Ten minutes after her husband came back ? You're kidding.
Nope. Gerry left the tapas at just after 9pm (he didn't get back until 9.15). The next 30 minute check is scheduled for 9.30. Imagine if any of the others had mentioned that they missed their 30 minute check at 9.30. How would that look on the night Madeleine disappeared? You couldn't take that chance on what the others were going to say - it only takes one out of the 7 to say they didn't keep to their 30 minute checks. They had to keep to the 30 minute timeline checks that night and unfortunately for Matt he said he'd do it. Matt became piggy in the middle, perhaps he flew out of the window 8)--))