Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Alfred R Jones on July 26, 2014, 03:44:58 PM
Title: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 26, 2014, 03:44:58 PM
A new book on the subject by Anthony Summers & Robbyn Swan
Quote
The 2007 disappearance of a three-year-old Madeleine McCann from her bed in Portugal proved an instant, worldwide sensation. There's been nothing like it since America's Lindbergh kidnapping eighty years ago.
Award-winning authors Anthony Summers and Robbyn Swan have produced the first independent, objective account of the case. They have examined the released Portuguese files, conducted in-depth interviews and original research to answer the questions: What can we really know about this most emotive of cases? What can we learn from it?
The Portuguese police probe ran into a dead end. Parents Gerry and Kate McCann, however, have never given up the search for Madeleine. They blitzed the media, hired private detectives, kept the case in the public eye. Speculation that the McCanns played a role in their daughter's fate, the authors demonstrate, is unfounded.
Scotland Yard's 'investigative review', ordered by the Prime Minister and begun in 2011, identified some 200 potential leads. The Yard's suspects have included a mystery paedophile who preyed on other British children. The Detective Chief Inspector heading the probe has said the little girl may still be alive.
The McCann family's private tragedy has touched millions around the world and aroused sometimes dark controversy. Looking for Madeleine is the most definitive account possible.
Biographical Notes
Anthony Summers, formally a deputy editor of the BBC's Panorama, is the author of eight investigative books and the only two-time winner of the Crime Writers' Association's top award for non-fiction. Robbyn Swan, his co-author and wife, has partnered Summers on three previous biographies and investigations. Their book The Eleventh Day, on the 9/11 attacks, was a Finalist for the 2012 Pulitzer Prize.
(http://i.imgur.com/Bcz4LXR.jpg?1)
1051
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 26, 2014, 04:00:19 PM
Speculation that the McCanns played a role in their daughter's fate, the authors demonstrate, is unfounded.
Fiction then.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on July 26, 2014, 04:01:21 PM
A new book on the subject by Anthony Summers & Robbyn Swan
Excellent journalist. Disappointing if the above is true but I suppose if the publisher is in this country it's not surprising the book will not countenance the possibility of the McCann's being guilty.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on July 26, 2014, 04:04:23 PM
Excellent journalist. Disappointing if the above is true but I suppose if the publisher is in this country it's not surprising the book will not countenance the McCann's being guilty.
it looks like the authors have considered all the available evidence and come to the same conclusion as I and many others have
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 26, 2014, 04:15:30 PM
Be interesting to see how they weasel their way round Smithdad.
If he is 'the abductor' then he just so happened to bear a passing resemblance to Gerry & he had changed Maddies jammies before he took her.
If he isn't then it's just an amazing coincidence that an innocent dadlike tourist with his Madeleine doppelganger daughter, was seen in the vicinity & hasn't come forward after 7 years.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on July 26, 2014, 04:15:43 PM
it looks like the authors have considered all the available evidence and come to the same conclusion as I and many others have
The author also looked at the available evidence when he wrote The File on the Tsar and concluded the tsarina and her daughters had survived the massacre in the Ekaterniburg cellar and escaped towards Perm. Of course we now know that the whole imperial family did in fact perish and thus Mr Summer's research has been discredited.
As I said on the whole I do admire Summer's and his work but as demonstrated above even he is susceptible to wanting the fairy tale to be true and constructing his evidence to support it.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on July 26, 2014, 04:15:50 PM
If the authors run true to form it certainly should be; given that they will be able to distance themselves from events in 2007 and will have access to archived material from then till now, this might become the definitive account of events. The only thing that will surpass it is discovering what actually happened to Madeleine.
I look forward to reading it.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on July 26, 2014, 04:19:12 PM
If the authors run true to form it certainly should be; given that they will be able to distance themselves from events in 2007 and will have access to archived material from then till now, this might become the definitive account of events. The only thing that will surpass it is discovering what actually happened to Madeleine.
I look forward to reading it.
I do too Brietta.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on July 26, 2014, 04:24:16 PM
The author also looked at the available evidence when he wrote The File on the Tsar and concluded the tsarina and her daughters had survived the massacre in the Ekaterniburg cellar and escaped towards Perm. Of course we now know that the whole imperial family did in fact perish and thus Mr Summer's research has been discredited.
As I said on the whole I do admire Summer's and his work but as demonstrated above even he is susceptible to wanting the fairy tale to be true and constructing his evidence to support it.
I read 'The File on the Tsar' many years ago ... and can thoroughly recommend it.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: jassi on July 26, 2014, 04:26:17 PM
Oh dear me - someone else cashing in on Madeleine. How dreadful and despicable can people get ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on July 26, 2014, 04:26:48 PM
Speculation that the McCanns played a role in their daughter's fate, the authors demonstrate, is unfounded.
Fiction then.
Since the type of crime has not been ascertained, then ALL THEORIES are speculation
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 26, 2014, 04:45:45 PM
I'm looking forward to reading their analysis of the conspiracy theories surrounding the case, as well as their comments about the online campaign against the parents.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 26, 2014, 04:53:07 PM
I'm looking forward to reading their analysis of the conspiracy theories surrounding the case, as well as their comments about the online campaign against the parents.
What a bunch of evil b*stards we all are for failing to surrender to the McCanns toxic media campaign & having the audacity to form our own opinions & then expressing them via social media.
How very dare we.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on July 26, 2014, 04:53:51 PM
Let's also see if they mention the mccanns and the others social habits on those evenings in leaving the children unattended, and in the case of the mccanns, in unlocked accommodation (that is their claim), and with no independently verified checks on the children.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on July 26, 2014, 04:55:28 PM
What a bunch of evil b*stards we all are for failing to surrender to the McCanns toxic media campaign & having the audacity to form our own opinions & then expressing them via social media.
How very dare we.
I know. Living in a free society where we can express opinions, and where the nature of the crime has not been determined.
Very naughty indeed.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 26, 2014, 04:57:13 PM
I hope the authors are braced for a barrage of 1 star reviews on websites like Amazon, by people who have not even read their book. I expect they will get lots of comments like the following, which appeared on the review page for their book about 9/11:
Quote
0 of 3 people found the following review helpful
1.0 out of 5 stars Looking for the truth? Look elsewhere, 1 Mar 2014
By
mrs src - See all my reviews
Verified Purchase(What is this?)
This review is from: The Eleventh Day (Hardcover)
If you want to know what really happened, don't buy any books which discuss the "hijackers", their life, and their deaths. Look instead for information to lead you to the real truth of who carried out this crime, and the reasons why it was done. The truth is out there - you just might not believe it. But however unsavoury, we should feel obliged to seek the truth, if only to avoid being fooled again.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on July 26, 2014, 04:57:44 PM
Fascinating. How she managed to keep the pretence up for over three decades that she was Anastasia beggars belief and to fool so many educated, intelligent people, including relatives, is incredible especially when you consider her true background.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on July 26, 2014, 05:09:01 PM
I notice one of the reviewers mentions Michael Moore.
Now he might write an interesting book on the case.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on July 26, 2014, 05:10:21 PM
Let's also see if they mention the mccanns and the others social habits on those evenings in leaving the children unattended, and in the case of the mccanns, in unlocked accommodation (that is their claim), and with no independently verified checks on the children.
I think they will probably mention the acknowledged disastrous mistake made on the 3rd … I imagine there will also be mention made of the initial investigation where it was successful and where it failed.
I would like to see an analysis of the details which led to Dr Amaral deciding the parents dunnit two days into the investigation without either speaking to them of visiting the crime scene.
There is so much we would all like the authors to touch on that we will all probably be disappointed in some measure.
However, I for one welcome an independent study into the circumstances of this case … I am sure it will be interesting.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on July 26, 2014, 05:20:37 PM
I think they will probably mention the acknowledged disastrous mistake made on the 3rd … I imagine there will also be mention made of the initial investigation where it was successful and where it failed.
I would like to see an analysis of the details which led to Dr Amaral deciding the parents dunnit two days into the investigation without either speaking to them of visiting the crime scene.
There is so much we would all like the authors to touch on that we will all probably be disappointed in some measure.
However, I for one welcome an independent study into the circumstances of this case … I am sure it will be interesting.
I am aware that Mr Summers has researched the role played by individuals on the periphery of the case such as Metodo3 and Correia. It will be interesting to see how he includes them in the narrative, if indeed he does.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on July 26, 2014, 05:29:00 PM
And it wouldn't be constrained by the draconian British libel laws.
Absolutely nothing draconian about a law which protects individuals being smeared by having lies printed about them. Surprised you should think otherwise.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on July 26, 2014, 05:31:58 PM
I am aware that Mr Summers has researched the role played by individuals on the periphery of the case such as Metodo3 and Correia. It will be interesting to see how he includes them in the narrative, if indeed he does.
I am of the opinion that proper research will reveal there is material for more than one book covering different aspects of Madeleine's case.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on July 26, 2014, 05:32:24 PM
Absolutely nothing draconian about a law which protects individuals being smeared by having lies printed about them. Surprised you should think otherwise.
It's draconian if it stops pertinent questions being asked. Surely you can see that.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on July 26, 2014, 05:35:09 PM
It's draconian if it stops pertinent questions being asked. Surely you can see that.
what pertinent questions are not being asked.....
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 26, 2014, 05:38:41 PM
An interesting question for the sceptics to ponder is whether the authors are "in on it" or simply lulling the McCanns into a false sense of security. What other motive could they have for concluding that the parents are innocent, eh?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ferryman on July 26, 2014, 05:39:10 PM
An interesting question for the sceptics to ponder is whether the authors are "in on it" or simply lulling the McCanns into a false sense of security. What other motive could they have for concluding that the parents are innocent, eh?
The fear of litigation if they didn't & money.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on July 26, 2014, 05:42:18 PM
We're talking about Summers and Swann, not Amaral.
What's the difference ? Both the books will make, or have made, money for their authors that they wouldn't have earned if Madeleine hadn't disappeared.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on July 26, 2014, 05:48:18 PM
What's the difference ? Both the books will make, or have made, money for their authors that they wouldn't have earned if Madeleine hadn't disappeared.
One book will be devoted to arriving at the truth; the other, to promulgate libel and lies.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on July 26, 2014, 05:56:23 PM
We are not talking about research papers though are we ? We are talking about a book that will be unavoidably shaped by the threat of litigation.
that is purely a matter of opinion...it may well be the author is writing what he sincerely believes
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 26, 2014, 06:04:26 PM
Well my dears as I said to Old Mother Shipton only this day past.
Every last book written about the John F Kennedy assassination was the one which was shedding new light into the darkened corners and was the new definitive work; well according to the publishers.
All the books were written by people who make a living writing books and articles; now let's see what will sell?
The amendments to defamation law and its funding enacted in 2013 will have changed attitudes to the alacrity with which some would litigate.
So my lovelies we may learn something new but then again we may not.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 26, 2014, 06:26:12 PM
that is purely a matter of opinion...it may well be the author is writing what he sincerely believes
I find it hard to believe any award winning author with such a great reputation and a reputation of his / her own to protect would spend months and years researching his / her subject and then write a book which completely contradicted his or her conclusions to avoid litigation.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: John on July 26, 2014, 06:43:51 PM
Yet another couple of authors attempting to exploit the fate of a unfortunate child to fill their own pockets. Crime if any, unknown, sums it up quite nicely and that didn't cost a tenner!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 26, 2014, 06:53:20 PM
Yet another couple of authors attempting to exploit the fate of a unfortunate child to fill their own pockets. Crime if any, unknown, sums it up quite nicely and that didn't cost a tenner!
I trust this is your view of Amaral also?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: jassi on July 26, 2014, 06:54:02 PM
Not entirely given the reason for writing the books are worlds apart. Goncalo Amaral wrote 'The Truth of the Lie' in order to explain his part in the investigation and where, up until his removal from the case, the evidence had taken them. Former Panorama editor and husband and wife team Summers and Swan have written this book for purely commercial reasons and since not even SY know what happened to Madeleine I find their involvement at this time quite distasteful.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Eleanor on July 26, 2014, 07:21:42 PM
I wonder if it is Libellous to say that Amaral is wrong?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: jassi on July 26, 2014, 07:28:33 PM
What's the difference ? Both the books will make, or have made, money for their authors that they wouldn't have earned if Madeleine hadn't disappeared.
It is a point that many people have made money from Madeleine's disappearance ... I wonder how many have recognised her part in that by making a donation to the fund set up to search for her.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: John on July 26, 2014, 07:45:26 PM
It is a point that many people have made money from Madeleine's disappearance ... I wonder how many have recognised her part in that by making a donation to the fund set up to search for her.
Good point Brietta.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 26, 2014, 07:58:36 PM
Not entirely given the reason for writing the books are worlds apart. Goncalo Amaral wrote 'The Truth of the Lie' in order to explain his part in the investigation and where, up until his removal from the case, the evidence had taken them. Former Panorama editor and husband and wife team Summers and Swan have written this book for purely commercial reasons and since not even SY know what happened to Madeleine I find their involvement at this time quite distasteful.
Dress it up however you like - Amaral cashed in pure and simple. He's made a career out of Madeleine and libelling her parents ever since, the unpleasant little weasel. If he'd written an objective book that was scrupulously factual and honest and without his barmy theories then I might think slightly better of him - as it is it's very obvious that his twin motives for writing the book were greed and to try and rescue his reputation. In my opinion, of course.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ferryman on July 26, 2014, 08:28:25 PM
Dress it up however you like - Amaral cashed in pure and simple. He's made a career out of Madeleine and libelling her parents ever since, the unpleasant little weasel. If he'd written an objective book that was scrupulously factual and honest and without his barmy theories then I might think slightly better of him - as it is it's very obvious that his twin motives for writing the book were greed and to try and rescue his reputation. In my opinion, of course.
It is beyond me how any sensible person could quibble ...
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on July 26, 2014, 08:37:44 PM
Not entirely given the reason for writing the books are worlds apart. Goncalo Amaral wrote 'The Truth of the Lie' in order to explain his part in the investigation and where, up until his removal from the case, the evidence had taken them. Former Panorama editor and husband and wife team Summers and Swan have written this book for purely commercial reasons and since not even SY know what happened to Madeleine I find their involvement at this time quite distasteful.
unfortunately amaral did not understand the evidence....getting back on topic....who will be interested in this book
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on July 26, 2014, 08:50:35 PM
Dress it up however you like - Amaral cashed in pure and simple. He's made a career out of Madeleine and libelling her parents ever since, the unpleasant little weasel. If he'd written an objective book that was scrupulously factual and honest and without his barmy theories then I might think slightly better of him - as it is it's very obvious that his twin motives for writing the book were greed and to try and rescue his reputation. In my opinion, of course.
The Tribunal de Relação de Lisboa in October 2010 did not think that the book was full of barmy theories.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on July 26, 2014, 09:19:42 PM
The feeling I get from the little I know of Dr Amaral’s book is not that he was setting the record straight but that he was settling a score with the Drs McCann who he blamed for his downfall.
I think the most unfortunate thing about it is that had he written a more considered book, it would still have sold and made a lot of money for him.
Much of the misinformation which has fed the campaigns against Madeleine’s family would not have happened; the libel trial wouldn’t have happened.
Hopefully the new book will redress the balance and provide the unbiased version of events that could never have been given by those who were so involved in them.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on July 26, 2014, 09:35:28 PM
The feeling I get from the little I know of Dr Amaral’s book is not that he was setting the record straight but that he was settling a score with the Drs McCann who he blamed for his downfall.
I think the most unfortunate thing about it is that had he written a more considered book, it would still have sold and made a lot of money for him.
Much of the misinformation which has fed the campaigns against Madeleine’s family would not have happened; the libel trial wouldn’t have happened.
Hopefully the new book will redress the balance and provide the unbiased version of events that could never have been given by those who were so involved in them.
'many' meaning the mccann supporters.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Carana on July 26, 2014, 09:38:17 PM
The feeling I get from the little I know of Dr Amaral’s book is not that he was setting the record straight but that he was settling a score with the Drs McCann who he blamed for his downfall.
I think the most unfortunate thing about it is that had he written a more considered book, it would still have sold and made a lot of money for him.
Much of the misinformation which has fed the campaigns against Madeleine’s family would not have happened; the libel trial wouldn’t have happened.
Hopefully the new book will redress the balance and provide the unbiased version of events that could never have been given by those who were so involved in them.
I agree.
He could have written a best-seller in a different way. He could have moaned to his heart's content about the challenges in a complex investigation without insisting on any particular "conclusion".
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: John on July 26, 2014, 09:53:25 PM
The feeling I get from the little I know of Dr Amaral’s book is not that he was setting the record straight but that he was settling a score with the Drs McCann who he blamed for his downfall.
Was he right? Some might argue that he was correct on both counts. His hypothesis is as yet unproven either way and we know Método 3 made attempts to target him using Marcos Correia. Who paid Método 3 or maybe they did it for free or maybe it was all one big mistake? (http://images.zaazu.com/img/shades-animated-animation-shades-smiley-emoticon-000387-medium.gif)
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Carana on July 26, 2014, 10:18:57 PM
Was he right? Some might argue that he was correct on both counts. His hypothesis is as yet unproven either way and we know Método 3 made attempts to target him using Marcos Correia. Who paid Método 3 or maybe they did it for free or maybe it was all one big mistake? (http://images.zaazu.com/img/shades-animated-animation-shades-smiley-emoticon-000387-medium.gif)
What substantiates that idea?
There may well have been contact at some point if had said that he may have had info to share as to where Madeleine might be.
But beyond that?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 26, 2014, 10:53:50 PM
Very possibly Alfred but they have the benefit of having the most rings up their sleeves so can pull rank!!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 27, 2014, 04:11:38 PM
Oh another book! how lovely and it finds that the parents involvement in their daughters fate to be 'unfounded'
Some people do live in a parallel universe- they pop in and out-pick and choose which truth they want to believe and run with it...
The parents involvement in their daughters fate(what ever that was/is) is very founded indeed.
Indeed it is central to this whole phenomenon of; "where's Maddie"
The evidence is indisputable: Parents leave three young children alone in an apartment- they were not keeping to a strict time line for checking their children, and even admitted they used a 'listening' type of method (David Payne and wife used a baby monitoring system-bought from many baby shops).
They knew their children were light sleepers, they had a conversation with 3 year old maddie who questioned them about their absence in the flat when one of them woke up crying, AND as Gerry testified he 'felt' someone was in the apartment that night- why the hell not check the whole apartment? They were negligent as parents and are very responsible for their daughters fate (what ever that was /is).
They are also responsible for the enduring psychological harm suffered by their twins as a a result of that night.
Very founded indeed!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: sadie on July 27, 2014, 07:13:31 PM
Oh another book! how lovely and it finds that the parents involvement in their daughters fate to be 'unfounded'
Some people do live in a parallel universe- they pop in and out-pick and choose which truth they want to believe and run with it...
The parents involvement in their daughters fate(what ever that was/is) is very founded indeed.
Indeed it is central to this whole phenomenon of; "where's Maddie"
The evidence is indisputable: Parents leave three young children alone in an apartment- they were not keeping to a strict time line for checking their children, and even admitted they used a 'listening' type of method (David Payne and wife used a baby monitoring system-bought from many baby shops).
They knew their children were light sleepers, they had a conversation with 3 year old maddie who questioned them about their absence in the flat when one of them woke up crying, AND as Gerry testified he 'felt' someone was in the apartment that night- why the hell not check the whole apartment? They were negligent as parents and are very responsible for their daughters fate (what ever that was /is).
They are also responsible for the enduring psychological harm suffered by their twins as a a result of that night.
Very founded indeed!
What part do you think you and your allies will have in any enduring psychological harm to the twins ? What part do you think that Amarals book will have in any enduring psychological harm to the twins ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on July 27, 2014, 07:18:23 PM
What part do you think you and your allies will have in any enduring psychological harm to the twins ? What part do you think that Amarals book will have in any enduring psychological harm to the twins ?
Now who is responsible for all this ?
The people who demonstrated 'responsible parenting skills' ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on July 27, 2014, 07:25:10 PM
The feeling I get from the little I know of Dr Amaral’s book is not that he was setting the record straight but that he was settling a score with the Drs McCann who he blamed for his downfall.
I think the most unfortunate thing about it is that had he written a more considered book, it would still have sold and made a lot of money for him.
Much of the misinformation which has fed the campaigns against Madeleine’s family would not have happened; the libel trial wouldn’t have happened.
Hopefully the new book will redress the balance and provide the unbiased version of events that could never have been given by those who were so involved in them.
It is easy to know as much as you wish about the book A Verdade Da Mentira - because the entire text - translated into English - is here http://goncaloamaraltruthofthelie.blogspot.co.uk/ The judge for one would not dream of assessing the book without actually reading it.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: pegasus on July 27, 2014, 08:00:08 PM
The author also looked at the available evidence when he wrote The File on the Tsar and concluded the tsarina and her daughters had survived the massacre in the Ekaterniburg cellar and escaped towards Perm. Of course we now know that the whole imperial family did in fact perish and thus Mr Summer's research has been discredited.
As I said on the whole I do admire Summer's and his work but as demonstrated above even he is susceptible to wanting the fairy tale to be true and constructing his evidence to support it.
Yes the 1976 book was proven wrong by the later finding of the bodies and their identification by DNA. This is admitted honestly in the updated preface of the current edition: "we accept that the current discoveries may have proved us wrong, that the evidence for the survival of the tsarina and her daughters for some time after the tsar's murder may be ill-founded"
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on July 27, 2014, 08:08:53 PM
Yes the 1976 book was proven wrong by the later finding of the bodies and their identification by DNA. This is admitted honestly in the updated preface of the current edition: "we accept that the current discoveries may have proved us wrong, that the evidence for the survival of the tsarina and her daughters for some time after the tsar's murder may be ill-founded"
I wonder if we will be reading a similar preface to the updated edition of Looking for Madeleine in a few years time Pegasus ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Benice on July 27, 2014, 08:14:27 PM
They are responsible for what happened by placing their socializing in front of their children's safety.
Making yet another personal attack on me won't change that.
Even as we speak Stephen there will be holidaymakers who will be sitting with their Baby alarms on the table/bar - having left their children asleep in their rooms while they go for their evening meal. And those people will NOT be checking on them every half an hour - they will be relying on their Alarms. Some parents will have signed up for the baby listening service.
And as long as none of their children disappear whilst they are doing this - we will never ever hear a word about them - and you can carry on posting - as if it's a fact - that the McCanns are the only parents on the planet who ever used this method of baby-checking.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 27, 2014, 08:19:04 PM
So, why then, doesn't that kind Mr Redwood, just put a stop to it?
All he need do to put an end their alleged psychological damage is just give the trolling public a quick goosie at this indisputable evidence in his possession, which proves beyond a shadow of doubt that Kate & Gerry had absolutely no involvement whatsoever in Madeleine's disappearance & they can all live happily ever after, minus Madeleine.
He's a nice man isn't he?
So why doesn't he just do that?
I know why, it's cos there ain't none.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Benice on July 27, 2014, 08:29:00 PM
So, why then, doesn't that kind Mr Redwood, just put a stop to it?
All he need do to put an end their alleged psychological damage is just give the trolling public a quick goosie at this indisputable evidence in his possession, which proves beyond a shadow of doubt that Kate & Gerry had absolutely no involvement whatsoever in Madeleine's disappearance & they can all live happily ever after, minus Madeleine.
He's a nice man isn't he?
So why doesn't he just do that?
I know why, it's cos there ain't none.
Why would SY be bothered about 'placating' a group of sceptics on the internet? It's not as if you would believe a word they said anyway.
For example - DCI Redwood has unequivically and unambiguously stated that the McCanns are not suspects or even persons of interest - and yet even that has been interpreted as.... 'they are prime suspects'.... in some quarters.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on July 28, 2014, 12:28:19 AM
So, why then, doesn't that kind Mr Redwood, just put a stop to it?
All he need do to put an end their alleged psychological damage is just give the trolling public a quick goosie at this indisputable evidence in his possession, which proves beyond a shadow of doubt that Kate & Gerry had absolutely no involvement whatsoever in Madeleine's disappearance & they can all live happily ever after, minus Madeleine.
He's a nice man isn't he?
So why doesn't he just do that?
I know why, it's cos there ain't none.
If that is a serious statement ... I despair for you.
Why on earth would the authorities release the details of an ongoing investigation of any crime ... let alone the details of an investigation into an abducted child ... onto the internet??
Such a suggestion is nothing short of insanity.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on July 28, 2014, 12:31:22 AM
If that is a serious statement ... I despair for you.
Why on earth would the authorities release the details of an ongoing investigation of any crime ... let alone the details of an investigation into an abducted child ... onto the internet??
Such a suggestion is nothing short of insanity.
I agree.
Especially who they believe are involved.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: sadie on July 28, 2014, 12:58:11 AM
But we can't possibly know that as as Brietta says SY would never give the public details of an ongoing investigation.
Good lord ... do you people listen to different news bulletins from those of us in the real world? ... the DCI was very specific about the people the Met had no interest in as were the PJ ... if you wish to pretend it is otherwise, that is your choice; but you do run the risk of appearing to be stuck in a bit of a rut.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: pegasus on July 28, 2014, 02:35:48 AM
After the book about the Tsar and his family was published, it was proven by DNA analysis that Anna Anderson had no DNA link to the Tsar's family.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on July 28, 2014, 05:23:07 AM
Good lord ... do you people listen to different news bulletins from those of us in the real world? ... the DCI was very specific about the people the Met had no interest in as were the PJ ... if you wish to pretend it is otherwise, that is your choice; but you do run the risk of appearing to be stuck in a bit of a rut.
But you have just posted yourself that SY do not give out information about an ongoing investigation.
Redwood didn't offer the information of his own free will. He was asked a direct question about the McCann's status in the investigation. What was he supposed to say ? No comment would have elicited just as much speculation as saying they hadn't been ruled out..
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Benice on July 28, 2014, 08:20:43 AM
But you have just posted yourself that SY do not give out information about an ongoing investigation.
Redwood didn't offer the information of his own free will. He was asked a direct question about the McCann's status in the investigation. What was he supposed to say ? No comment would have elicited just as much speculation as saying they hadn't been ruled out..
Some sceptics efforts to convince themselves that black is actually white never cease to amaze me.
The policeman heading the Madeleine McCann investigation has publically ruled the parents and their friends out of their enquiries. So have the PJ. None of them were obliged to do that but they did - and all the pedantic nitpicking in the world won't change it. Try to get over it.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 28, 2014, 08:24:07 AM
The Met so don't want the McCanns to know that they are their prime suspects that they not only stated publicly that neither they nor their friends are suspects, but they then went to the trouble of making four Portuguese Nationals arguidos and the PT authorities happily went along with this ruse. It's a plan so cunning you could stick a tail on it and call it a weasel.
And some people are so deluded they actually believe this nonsense.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 28, 2014, 10:38:50 AM
The Met so don't want the McCanns to know that they are their prime suspects that they not only stated publicly that neither they nor their friends are suspects, but they then went to the trouble of making four Portuguese Nationals arguidos and the PT authorities happily went along with this ruse. It's a plan so cunning you could stick a tail on it and call it a weasel.
And some people are so deluded they actually believe this nonsense.
I thought foxes were cunning,weasels were weasily identified and stoats were stotaly different? Some people are deluded enough to believe that there is a lot of evidence associated with this case pointing in whichever direction takes your fancy. "Nature of crime unknown" so not enough evidence there then. Unless the pundits on here know something different because two police forces have taken them into their confidence of course.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Jean-Pierre on July 28, 2014, 03:59:53 PM
I thought foxes were cunning,weasels were weasily identified and stoats were stotaly different? Some people are deluded enough to believe that there is a lot of evidence associated with this case pointing in whichever direction takes your fancy. "Nature of crime unknown" so not enough evidence there then. Unless the pundits on here know something different because two police forces have taken them into their confidence of course.
I thought foxes were cunning,weasels were weasily identified and stoats were stotaly different?
Very clever 8)--))
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 29, 2014, 07:25:55 PM
Even as we speak Stephen there will be holidaymakers who will be sitting with their Baby alarms on the table/bar - having left their children asleep in their rooms while they go for their evening meal. And those people will NOT be checking on them every half an hour - they will be relying on their Alarms. Some parents will have signed up for the baby listening service.
And as long as none of their children disappear whilst they are doing this - we will never ever hear a word about them - and you can carry on posting - as if it's a fact - that the McCanns are the only parents on the planet who ever used this method of baby-checking.
More than a few hotels now no longer provide this service on the grounds it is an unsafe practice.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on July 29, 2014, 07:27:03 PM
More than a few hotels now no longer provide this service on the grounds it is an unsafe practice.
but many still do
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: DCI on August 02, 2014, 10:13:35 PM
Pre Ordered mine for kindle.
Product Description
The 2007 disappearance of a three-year-old Madeleine McCann from her bed in Portugal proved an instant, worldwide sensation. There's been nothing like it since America's Lindbergh kidnapping eighty years ago.
Award-winning authors Anthony Summers and Robbyn Swan have produced the first independent, objective account of the case. They have examined the released Portuguese files, conducted in-depth interviews and original research to answer the questions: What can we really know about this most emotive of cases? What can we learn from it?
The Portuguese police probe ran into a dead end. Parents Gerry and Kate McCann, however, have never given up the search for Madeleine. They blitzed the media, hired private detectives, kept the case in the public eye. Speculation that the McCanns played a role in their daughter's fate, the authors demonstrate, is unfounded.
Scotland Yard's 'investigative review', ordered by the Prime Minister and begun in 2011, identified some 200 potential leads. The Yard's suspects have included a mystery paedophile who preyed on other British children. The Detective Chief Inspector heading the probe has said the little girl may still be alive.
The McCann family's private tragedy has touched millions around the world and aroused sometimes dark controversy. Looking for Madeleine is the most definitive account possible.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: John on August 03, 2014, 04:55:45 AM
I cannot see this book or any book on the subject of Madeleine McCann's disappearance for that matter adding anything of significance to the investigation. Madeleine's fate is still unknown so no prizes for guessing that Summers and Swan wont solve it. The book for what its worth will have paid some bills for them in the meantime while those who invested in its pages ponder its significance if any.
Without hesitation I would say that the information already available to us at the moment is about as good as it gets and unless there is a major breakthrough I cannot see that changing. A book which isn't based on hard evidence serves little purpose in any serious investigation.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on August 03, 2014, 07:34:35 AM
I cannot see this book or any book on the subject of Madeleine McCann's disappearance for that matter adding anything of significance to the investigation. Madeleine's fate is still unknown so no prizes for guessing that Summers and Swan wont solve it. The book for what its worth will have paid some bills for them in the meantime while those who invested in its pages ponder its significance if any.
Without hesitation I would say that the information already available to us at the moment is about as good as it gets and unless there is a major breakthrough I cannot see that changing. A book which isn't based on hard evidence serves little purpose in any serious investigation.
There is so much misinformation out there that perhaps the authors decided it was time to redress the balance with a properly researched book.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on August 03, 2014, 07:53:51 AM
I cannot see this book or any book on the subject of Madeleine McCann's disappearance for that matter adding anything of significance to the investigation. Madeleine's fate is still unknown so no prizes for guessing that Summers and Swan wont solve it. The book for what its worth will have paid some bills for them in the meantime while those who invested in its pages ponder its significance if any.
Without hesitation I would say that the information already available to us at the moment is about as good as it gets and unless there is a major breakthrough I cannot see that changing. A book which isn't based on hard evidence serves little purpose in any serious investigation.
I agree with you John. The only interest will depend on who they have interviewed, including the McCanns. Will they give an independent expert analysis of the dna evidence...the dog evidence. Will they discuss the smith sighting....when you think about it ,it could be quite interesting
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on August 03, 2014, 11:28:01 AM
I agree with you John. The only interest will depend on who they have interviewed, including the McCanns. Will they give an independent expert analysis of the dna evidence...the dog evidence. Will they discuss the smith sighting....when you think about it ,it could be quite interesting
I think it's going to be very interesting Dave as much for the information they leave out as for that which they include. I know Mr Summers is aware of the link between the McCanns and Correia via Metodo3. It will be interesting to see how he deals with the episode, if at all.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on August 03, 2014, 11:40:34 AM
I think it's going to be very interesting Dave as much for the information they leave out as for that which they include. I know Mr Summers is aware of the link between the McCanns and Correia via Metodo3. It will be interesting to see how he deals with the episode, if at all.
depends what you mean by the link.....Correia...oversaw the dam project in conjunction with m3...is there really anymore to it than that apart from forum myths
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on August 03, 2014, 11:43:33 AM
This is going to be another massive promotion for the innocence of the mccanns ...of that we can be pretty sure
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on August 03, 2014, 11:54:56 AM
depends what you mean by the link.....Correia...oversaw the dam project in conjunction with m3...is there really anymore to it than that apart from forum myths
I suppose we will have to wait until the book is published to see the extent and results of Mr Summers research.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 03, 2014, 12:04:45 PM
And quite how they manage to weasel their way round Smithdad (with his buttoned trousers) being a suspect, despite the difference in the childs pyjamas.
The Pyjama changing paedo from a Portuguese gang.
He is still out there & he could strike again!!!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on August 03, 2014, 04:00:00 PM
And quite how they manage to weasel their way round Smithdad (with his buttoned trousers) being a suspect, despite the difference in the childs pyjamas.
The Pyjama changing paedo from a Portuguese gang.
He is still out there & he could strike again!!!
Oh lordy, lordy ... the pity of it all is that they didn't send you a questionnaire WS, think of the wonders you could have imparted to them – what an oversight.
A chapter! Bet they would have scrapped their research and written a whole book about your theories.
But wait a minute … somebody beat you to it and managed to get his theories into a book first … name will come to me in a minute.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 01, 2014, 10:56:30 PM
I have heard on the grapevine that Brenda Ryan has contributed to the Summers/Swan book. Does anyone know if this is true ?
To my mind a book which includes such polarised views as both supporters and sceptics hold does not a objective study make. Shame as I had such hope for the book !
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 01, 2014, 11:09:49 PM
If Bren has anything to contribute it will I imagine be about how the 3 Arguidos helped to promulgate myths and lies about the case, not about the case itself.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 02, 2014, 12:44:13 AM
If Bren has anything to contribute it will I imagine be about how the 3 Arguidos helped to promulgate myths and lies about the case, not about the case itself.
I think both the supporter and sceptic forums were guilty of that with regard to both the McCanns and Amaral. Perhaps he should have invited Rosiepops for her opinion too as I believe as admin for justice4themccannfamily forum she went from being one of the McCanns staunchest supporters to one of their most virulent critics.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 02, 2014, 08:07:51 AM
I think both the supporter and sceptic forums were guilty of that with regard to both the McCanns and Amaral. Perhaps he should have invited Rosiepops for her opinion too as I believe as admin for justice4themccannfamily forum she went from being one of the McCanns staunchest supporters to one of their most virulent critics.
I think that's another typical "sceptic" myth.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 02, 2014, 11:17:52 AM
In an extraordinary example of modern-day journalism, the might of the British media has come out with all guns blazing to publicise a new book delving into the seven-year mystery of what really happened to Madeleine McCann. The book, by husband-and-wife team Anthony Summers and Robbyn Swan, has been mentioned in all the major newspapers this week (Daily Telegraph, Daily Mail, Daily Mirror, Daily Express et al) as well as being splashed across the Sky News website for two consecutive days. The reason, according to all the stories, is the “revelation” that British police forces “hampered the Madeleine inquiry”. Summers and Swan “reveal” a secret report, researched in 2009 and delivered in 2010, in which the founder of CEOP (the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre) considers that there were too many cooks racing into the kitchen when Madeleine went missing, and that this has irreparably harmed the investigation from the start - leaving Portuguese police resentful of their British counterparts who they felt were working to a hidden agenda. That Jim Gamble came to this conclusion is perfectly understandable. Many would argue there was little need for a report. But what is raising questions is why the British media saw the need to rush in and give the news such prominence. As criminal profiler Pat Brown mentions in a blog on the subject, there is the feeling that the Summers and Swan revelations are “propaganda”. Indeed, the American who travelled over to Portugal in 2012 to research the Madeleine mystery suggests the couple’s new book Looking for Madeleine is “not a well-researched and even-handed book on the case” at all. “Sadly, I think this book is going to get a lot of positive media attention,” she wrote at the beginning of the summer. “The man and his wife can write and their skill is going to convince people who read the book that the McCanns are innocent and an abduction actually happened. “He is touting the party line and the McCanns will surely back the book as, finally, they have 'award-winning authors Anthony Summers and Robbyn Swan' producing 'the first independent, objective account of the case'... My foot.” Concluding that the book being given so much media attention this week is “yet another sign of the end days for this sad case”, Brown predicts Scotland Yard will not be “far behind with their own final whitewash”. As the Resident reported last week, Scotland Yard detectives are due back in Portugal this month for what the British media has described as a “make-or-break moment”.
Witnesses describe seeing a man staring at the McCann family's holiday apartment, as police search for a mystery predator.
A bogus charity collector was suspected of planning to abduct a young British girl hours before Madeleine McCann vanished, a new book reveals.
The intruder fled when he was caught in a villa close to the apartment from where three-year-old Madeleine disappeared in Praia da Luz, Portugal in 2007.
Author Anthony Summers told Sky News that a British mother answered her door to a stranger asking for donations to an orphanage.
"She soon realised he wasn't really looking at her, but was staring intently at her young daughter of three or four who was standing at her side, holding on to her skirt.
"She later saw that man watching her place during the afternoon. The next day she went upstairs to fetch something for a moment and as she started to come downstairs she saw what she thinks was the same man in the room where her child was and as soon as she started to come into the room he scarpered."
The woman was convinced the man intended to take her daughter and has been interviewed by Scotland Yard detectives investigating Madeleine's disappearance, said Mr Summers.
The incident in the Praia da Luz resort is recounted in Looking For Madeleine, published next week, by Mr Summers and his co-author Robbyn Swan.
The authors spent two years studying Portuguese police files and British documents for what they claim is the first objective book on the Madeleine case. They did not interview Madeleine's parents Kate and Gerry McCann.
The book also reveals how another intruder got into the bed of a young girl in the nearby resort of Carvoeiro three years earlier.
The man fled after the girl and her sister woke up and asked if he was their daddy or uncle, said Ms Swan.
She said: "What they noticed about this man was that he was wearing what seemed to be a surgical mask and he had wound laundry around his feet, seemingly to keep from making prints or leaving marks.
"He disappeared without interfering with the two girls."
A mystery sexual predator and three burglary suspects are the focus of the current Scotland Yard investigation.
The authors claim that the McCanns' holiday apartment, no 5a at the Ocean Club complex, was being watched in the days leading up to Madeleine's disappearance.
Ms Swan said: "Two separate witnesses apparently saw a man, whom both described as very ugly or with a spotty or pimply face, staring fixedly at apartment 5a. They both described him being in the same position in the street.
"That's combined with the fact that on the very day Madeleine disappeared, a lady visiting the apartment upstairs saw from her balcony a man behaving very oddly in the lane between the apartments and the pool.
"The man was going out of an adjacent gate, closing the gate repeatedly to see if it was creaky. He seemed to be looking around and generally acting very peculiarly before leaving."
Madeleine was nearly four when she vanished. She was sleeping in a room with her younger brother and sister in the apartment while her parents were dining with friends in the complex's poolside tapas bar nearby.
The McCanns said they had left the sliding patio door unlocked, while checking on the children every 30 minutes.
The authors say that Mrs McCann has said she was told by the then British consul Bill Henderson that before Madeleine vanished he was aware of a spate of child s.e.x assaults along the Algarve coast and had discussed it with holiday companies.
Mr Summers said: "Had there been a warning note in the apartment, do we think the McCanns would have left the patio door unlocked on the night they went to the other side of the pool to have dinner away from their children?
"One would be tempted to think they would make sure everything was firmly locked up."
The McCanns' tour operators Mark Warner Ltd said its policy was not to comment. The Foreign Office told the authors it had no information to give them.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 07, 2014, 09:38:51 AM
Witnesses describe seeing a man staring at the McCann family's holiday apartment, as police search for a mystery predator.
A bogus charity collector was suspected of planning to abduct a young British girl hours before Madeleine McCann vanished, a new book reveals.
The intruder fled when he was caught in a villa close to the apartment from where three-year-old Madeleine disappeared in Praia da Luz, Portugal in 2007.
Author Anthony Summers told Sky News that a British mother answered her door to a stranger asking for donations to an orphanage.
"She soon realised he wasn't really looking at her, but was staring intently at her young daughter of three or four who was standing at her side, holding on to her skirt.
"She later saw that man watching her place during the afternoon. The next day she went upstairs to fetch something for a moment and as she started to come downstairs she saw what she thinks was the same man in the room where her child was and as soon as she started to come into the room he scarpered."
The woman was convinced the man intended to take her daughter and has been interviewed by Scotland Yard detectives investigating Madeleine's disappearance, said Mr Summers.
The incident in the Praia da Luz resort is recounted in Looking For Madeleine, published next week, by Mr Summers and his co-author Robbyn Swan.
The authors spent two years studying Portuguese police files and British documents for what they claim is the first objective book on the Madeleine case. They did not interview Madeleine's parents Kate and Gerry McCann.
The book also reveals how another intruder got into the bed of a young girl in the nearby resort of Carvoeiro three years earlier.
The man fled after the girl and her sister woke up and asked if he was their daddy or uncle, said Ms Swan.
She said: "What they noticed about this man was that he was wearing what seemed to be a surgical mask and he had wound laundry around his feet, seemingly to keep from making prints or leaving marks.
"He disappeared without interfering with the two girls."
A mystery sexual predator and three burglary suspects are the focus of the current Scotland Yard investigation.
The authors claim that the McCanns' holiday apartment, no 5a at the Ocean Club complex, was being watched in the days leading up to Madeleine's disappearance.
Ms Swan said: "Two separate witnesses apparently saw a man, whom both described as very ugly or with a spotty or pimply face, staring fixedly at apartment 5a. They both described him being in the same position in the street.
"That's combined with the fact that on the very day Madeleine disappeared, a lady visiting the apartment upstairs saw from her balcony a man behaving very oddly in the lane between the apartments and the pool.
"The man was going out of an adjacent gate, closing the gate repeatedly to see if it was creaky. He seemed to be looking around and generally acting very peculiarly before leaving."
Madeleine was nearly four when she vanished. She was sleeping in a room with her younger brother and sister in the apartment while her parents were dining with friends in the complex's poolside tapas bar nearby.
The McCanns said they had left the sliding patio door unlocked, while checking on the children every 30 minutes.
The authors say that Mrs McCann has said she was told by the then British consul Bill Henderson that before Madeleine vanished he was aware of a spate of child s.e.x assaults along the Algarve coast and had discussed it with holiday companies.
Mr Summers said: "Had there been a warning note in the apartment, do we think the McCanns would have left the patio door unlocked on the night they went to the other side of the pool to have dinner away from their children?
"One would be tempted to think they would make sure everything was firmly locked up."
The McCanns' tour operators Mark Warner Ltd said its policy was not to comment. The Foreign Office told the authors it had no information to give them.
Old,old news.
Just rehashing of stories.
Nice way to make money isn't it ? 8((()*/
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Benice on September 07, 2014, 10:06:24 AM
Here we go. Anyone who publically supports the McCanns in any way shape or form, must immediately be sneered at and subjected to a character assassination.
So predictable and utterly childish imo.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 07, 2014, 10:21:11 AM
Here we go. Anyone who publically supports the McCanns in any way shape or form, must immediately be sneered at and subjected to a character assassination.
So predictable and utterly childish imo.
Utter rubbish.
They are rehashing old stories and making money from it.
....and that is truly pathetic, and rthen some.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Benice on September 07, 2014, 10:41:44 AM
No matter what side of the fence you sit on Benice it is obvious from the early reports, disappointingly because I hold Mr Summers in high regard as a journalist, that his and his wife's book is simply a rehashing of old newspaper articles. How can you conduct an in-depth investigation of this case without interviewing the McCanns ? How can you know what was going on behind the scenes diplomatically if the Foreign Office will not comment ?
One day a definitive book about this case will be written. Sadly I'm afraid Mr Summers is not it.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Benice on September 07, 2014, 11:49:57 AM
No matter what side of the fence you sit on Benice it is obvious from the early reports, disappointingly because I hold Mr Summers in high regard as a journalist, that his and his wife's book is simply a rehashing of old newspaper articles. How can you conduct an in-depth investigation of this case without interviewing the McCanns ? How can you know what was going on behind the scenes diplomatically if the Foreign Office will not comment ?
One day a definitive book about this case will be written. Sadly I'm afraid Mr Summers is not it.
I truly can't believe that YOU believe the book is just a re-hashing of old newspaper articles Faith. I'd thought better of you.
Anyway I have ordered the book and shall reserve judgement until I've read it.
In the meantime I fully expect the 'smear campaign' against the authors to continue and to escalate. Very sad IMO.
(Must go out now).
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ferryman on September 07, 2014, 11:56:06 AM
No matter what side of the fence you sit on Benice it is obvious from the early reports, disappointingly because I hold Mr Summers in high regard as a journalist, that his and his wife's book is simply a rehashing of old newspaper articles. How can you conduct an in-depth investigation of this case without interviewing the McCanns ? How can you know what was going on behind the scenes diplomatically if the Foreign Office will not comment ?
One day a definitive book about this case will be written. Sadly I'm afraid Mr Summers is not it.
When someone (preferably notable) writes that Gerry dumped Madeleine's body in a bin, you'll be happy ...
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 07, 2014, 12:08:21 PM
No matter what side of the fence you sit on Benice it is obvious from the early reports, disappointingly because I hold Mr Summers in high regard as a journalist, that his and his wife's book is simply a rehashing of old newspaper articles. How can you conduct an in-depth investigation of this case without interviewing the McCanns ? How can you know what was going on behind the scenes diplomatically if the Foreign Office will not comment ?
One day a definitive book about this case will be written. Sadly I'm afraid Mr Summers is not it.
Yet you described the recent video as..."an interesting video"......no criticism of the sources on that occasion
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 07, 2014, 12:37:20 PM
I truly can't believe that YOU believe the book is just a re-hashing of old newspaper articles Faith. I'd thought better of you.
Anyway I have ordered the book and shall reserve judgement until I've read it.
In the meantime I fully expect the 'smear campaign' against the authors to continue and to escalate. Very sad IMO.
(Must go out now).
In my correspondence with Mr Summers he assured me that my early assumptions may be changed after reading his book. Early indications make it unlikely but I live in hope Benice.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 07, 2014, 12:41:16 PM
They are rehashing old stories and making money from it.
....and that is truly pathetic, and rthen some.
I just saw the Sky News report and the interview that Brunty had with the authors and all I can think of is WTF?? Talk about rehashed BOLLOCKS @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Abduction? What abduction??
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 07, 2014, 12:56:29 PM
I just saw the Sky News report and the interview that Brunty had with the authors and all I can think of is WTF?? Talk about rehashed BOLLOCKS @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Exactly Angelo !
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on September 07, 2014, 01:00:00 PM
These two are a disgrace making money out of the disappearance of a little helpless tot.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 07, 2014, 01:44:07 PM
I just saw the Sky News report and the interview that Brunty had with the authors and all I can think of is WTF?? Talk about rehashed BOLLOCKS @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Abduction? What abduction??
Just a pair of weirdos making money out of Madeleine and rehashing old stories.
As you said, BOLLOCKS. Pure BOLLOCKS.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 07, 2014, 02:56:42 PM
In my correspondence with Mr Summers he assured me that my early assumptions may be changed after reading his book. Early indications make it unlikely but I live in hope Benice.
I do hope Mr Summers includes a reference to your correspondence with him in his book. Do you think this book was writtne without carrying out any interviews with anyone involved in the case at all?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 07, 2014, 03:06:44 PM
What I find astounding is that sceptics have nothing to say about these attacks on children in the Algarve apart from to ridicule them and / or make out they have been invented by Team McCann which is clearly an absurd accusation, as it implies that Team McCann now includes two highly respected journalists.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 07, 2014, 03:09:55 PM
From another article in today's Sun on Sunday
Quote
Summers and Swan are clear there is no evidence Gerry and Kate were guilty of wrongdoing. But they believe missteps by both Portuguese and British police during the initial investigation hindered the hunt to find Madeleine.
Swan said: “Given what the McCanns have been through, I think you would have to ask yourself, “Would I have had the courage and the stamina to carry on the way they have done?”
“People who vilified them should set aside their prejudices and read the evidence before making up their minds.” ----------
Chance would be a fine thing!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Montclair on September 07, 2014, 04:01:55 PM
What I find astounding is that sceptics have nothing to say about these attacks on children in the Algarve apart from to ridicule them and / or make out they have been invented by Team McCann which is clearly an absurd accusation, as it implies that Team McCann now includes two highly respected journalists.
As someone who has lived in the Algarve for almost 40 years and worked in the tourism business, I am most inclined to believe that these "attacks" on children did not even take place. Everyone here would have known about them. I always worked in Carvoeiro and nobody ever heard of these alleged attacks.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 07, 2014, 04:04:21 PM
Given that the authors are that by profession do we believe the book was written and published for reasons of altruism and truth or financial gain? Did the authors have access to police files that were not available to the general public following the archiving of the case in 2008? Have the authors interviewed anyone who was not interviewed by the police who has information germane to the case? Have The MPS made the authors party to information gained during the pursuance of Operation Grange that is not already in the public domain? If yes to the last three questions the book may be worth reading; if no to the last three questions it is hard to envisage the book being anything other than another interpretation of the established data. Read it to find out I guess.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 07, 2014, 04:24:43 PM
As someone who has lived in the Algarve for almost 40 years and worked in the tourism business, I am most inclined to believe that these "attacks" on children did not even take place. Everyone here would have known about them. I always worked in Carvoeiro and nobody ever heard of these alleged attacks.
not surprising as it seems the Portuguese police cover up these incidents to protect tourism
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 07, 2014, 04:38:50 PM
As someone who has lived in the Algarve for almost 40 years and worked in the tourism business, I am most inclined to believe that these "attacks" on children did not even take place. Everyone here would have known about them. I always worked in Carvoeiro and nobody ever heard of these alleged attacks.
In which case you must believe that a very large number of people are involved in a major plot to deceive the British public - including Pulitzer prize winning authors who claim to have interviewed the parents of children attacked. Is this the case?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 07, 2014, 05:10:53 PM
not surprising as it seems the Portuguese police cover up these incidents to protect tourism
And if these sex attacks have all been made up to support the McCanns and paint Portugal in a bad light then let's hear it from Portugal's equivalent of Summers and Swann, doing their own objective book on the subject and uncovering all these supposed lies - I won't hold my breath for that one, however.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 07, 2014, 05:12:44 PM
And if these sex attacks have all been made up to support the McCanns and paint Portugal in a bad light then let's hear it from Portugal's equivalent of Summers and Swann, doing their own objective book on the subject and uncovering all these supposed lies - I won't hold my breath for that one, however.
and Summers and Swann are objective ???
@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* *&*%£
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: John on September 07, 2014, 05:30:49 PM
Looks like the new book is being published by French firm Hachette Livre using their relatively recently acquired vehicle Headline Publishing. This group is ranked second in the UK only to the Random House Group publishers which has Kate McCann's book 'Madeleine' amongst its titles.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 07, 2014, 05:41:54 PM
I do hope Mr Summers includes a reference to your correspondence with him in his book. Do you think this book was writtne without carrying out any interviews with anyone involved in the case at all?
Seems he interviewed a friend of a friend who alleged they caught a swarthy charity worker staring over her shoulder at her daughter ! You just can't argue with that depth of research can you Alfred !
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 07, 2014, 05:47:55 PM
Seems he interviewed a friend of a friend who alleged they caught a swarthy charity worker staring over her shoulder at her daughter ! You just can't argue with that depth of research can you Alfred !
Let's face it, it's brilliant research. @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 07, 2014, 06:03:37 PM
And if these sex attacks have all been made up to support the McCanns and paint Portugal in a bad light then let's hear it from Portugal's equivalent of Summers and Swann, doing their own objective book on the subject and uncovering all these supposed lies - I won't hold my breath for that one, however.
We must not forget the Mr Summer thought at one point in time thought that Tsar Nicholas the Second's family had escaped the massacre in the Impatiev House. That book was also intensively researched but that didn't stop his conclusions being wrong.
Sadly I fear Summers is no more correct about Madeleine's disappearance as he was about Maria, Olga, Titannia and Anastasia's
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 07, 2014, 06:16:55 PM
Seems he interviewed a friend of a friend who alleged they caught a swarthy charity worker staring over her shoulder at her daughter ! You just can't argue with that depth of research can you Alfred !
So, that's the extent of the in depth interviews is it? And you know this presumably because you've had an advance copy of the book, right?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 07, 2014, 06:20:10 PM
We must not forget the Mr Summer thought at one point in time thought that Tsar Nicholas the Second's family had escaped the massacre in the Impatiev House. That book was also intensively researched but that didn't stop his conclusions being wrong.
Sadly I fear Summers is no more correct about Madeleine's disappearance as he was about Maria, Olga, Titannia and Anastasia's
So - the book on the Romanovs was intensively researched, but the book about Madeleine's disappearance is simply a re-hash of newspaper articles with just the one interview (with a friend of a friend) - and both are wrong anyway, so nothing to see here, let's all concentrate on reading someone who REALLY knows what's what, like Blacksmith, eh? Hilarious!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 07, 2014, 06:25:23 PM
So - the book on the Romanovs was intensively researched, but the book about Madeleine's disappearance is simply a re-hash of newspaper articles with just the one interview (with a friend of a friend) - and both are wrong anyway, so nothing to see here, let's all concentrate on reading someone who REALLY knows what's what, like Blacksmith, eh? Hilarious!
There is no one would be more happy than me to know that Summers has actually done as much research into this case as he claims. Unfortunately if the extracts we have already been privy to is indicative of the rest of the book I'm afraid my hopes may well be in vain.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 07, 2014, 06:28:28 PM
There is no one would be more happy than me to know that Summers has actually done as much research into this case as he claims. Unfortunately if the extracts we have already been privy to is indicative of the rest of the book I'm afraid my hopes may well be in vain.
How come it's only Summers who gets a mention here? What about Swann? Please be honest Faithlilly, the only hopes you have been entertaining is that the book would have a McCann-sceptic flavour to it. The fact that it doesn't means it's crap as far as you're concerned no matter how much time and effort went into research and interviews.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 07, 2014, 06:35:00 PM
Summers and Swann spent several years researching 9/11 and then writing a book about it in which they debunk the conspiracy theorists who believe the US Govt and the Israelis engineered the whole thing. Were they wrong about that too - oh, wait don't answer that, I forgot for a moment I was on a forum full of [ censored word ]s...
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 07, 2014, 06:37:25 PM
How come it's only Summers who gets a mention here? What about Swann? Please be honest Faithlilly, the only hopes you have been entertaining is that the book would have a McCann-sceptic flavour to it. The fact that it doesn't means it's crap as far as you're concerned no matter how much time and effort went into research and interviews.
Tell me Alfred, how thorough do you think Summers and Swann's research has been and how solid their conclusions when they haven't interviewed the McCanns or had any input from the Foreign Office ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 07, 2014, 06:37:52 PM
So - the book on the Romanovs was intensively researched, but the book about Madeleine's disappearance is simply a re-hash of newspaper articles with just the one interview (with a friend of a friend) - and both are wrong anyway, so nothing to see here, let's all concentrate on reading someone who REALLY knows what's what, like Blacksmith, eh? Hilarious!
Your post is indeed hilarious and quite desperate. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 07, 2014, 06:44:27 PM
Tell me Alfred, how thorough do you think Summers and Swann's research has been and how solid their conclusions when they haven't interviewed the McCanns or had any input from the Foreign Office ?
I haven't read the book so I can't comment on its thoroughness. I do know however that it is possible to write a very well researched book on a subject without actually speaking to every single person involved. This book is about Madeleine's disappearance, not the McCanns per se. Using your logic, none of you armchair sleuths have anything worthwhile to say on the subject either, seeing as how none of you has interviewed the McCanns personally, to the best of my knowledge.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 07, 2014, 06:51:36 PM
Summers and Swann spent several years researching 9/11 and then writing a book about it in which they debunk the conspiracy theorists who believe the US Govt and the Israelis engineered the whole thing. Were they wrong about that too - oh, wait don't answer that, I forgot for a moment I was on a forum full of [ censored word ]s...
I have no idea if they were wrong.
What I do know however is that even though Summers conducted extensive research for his book the File on the Tsar his conclusions couldn't have been more wrong and there is always the chance he is wrong here too.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 07, 2014, 06:53:46 PM
I haven't read the book so I can't comment on its thoroughness. I do know however that it is possible to write a very well researched book on a subject without actually speaking to every single person involved. This book is about Madeleine's disappearance, not the McCanns per se. Using your logic, none of you armchair sleuths have anything worthwhile to say on the subject either, seeing as how none of you has interviewed the McCanns personally, to the best of my knowledge.
On that basis, anything you type is completely irrelevant and a waste of space.
P.S. Do you really imagine the mccanns would allow anyone to ask them open questions on Madeleine's disappearance, bar under oath in a court of law ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 07, 2014, 06:54:22 PM
What I do know however is that even though Summers conducted extensive research for his book the File on the Tsar his conclusions couldn't have been more wrong and there is always the chance he is wrong here too.
Seriously? You think 9/11 could possibly have been engineered by the US Govt and the Israelis? Well then, say no more.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 07, 2014, 06:57:47 PM
Seriously? You think 9/11 could possibly have been engineered by the US Govt and the Israelis? Well then, say no more.
Actually perhaps their next book should be on the theme of mccann supporters who believe Madeleine is the second coming, and one in particular who thinks he's related to Jesus.
Now that would be a best seller. @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* *&*%£
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: pegasus on September 07, 2014, 06:58:48 PM
Quote
"Had there been a warning note in the apartment, do we think the McCanns would have left the patio door unlocked on the night they went to the other side of the pool to have dinner away from their children? One would be tempted to think they would make sure everything was firmly locked up."
So is this how the warning notice should have read? "Warning: when leaving infants alone in apartment please ensure that all windows and doors are locked."
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 07, 2014, 06:59:21 PM
I haven't read the book so I can't comment on its thoroughness. I do know however that it is possible to write a very well researched book on a subject without actually speaking to every single person involved. This book is about Madeleine's disappearance, not the McCanns per se. Using your logic, none of you armchair sleuths have anything worthwhile to say on the subject either, seeing as how none of you has interviewed the McCanns personally, to the best of my knowledge.
That must be the most ridiculous posts I have ever seen you write Alfred.
How can a book be well researched when the main players have not been interviewed by the author ?
BTW I may have not interviewed the McCanns but I am also not claiming that my book is the most definitive account to date of the case.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 07, 2014, 07:02:32 PM
That must be the most ridiculous pits I have ever seen you write Alfrad.
How can a book be well researched when the main players have not been interviewed by the author ?
BTW I may have not interviewed the McCanns but I am also not claiming that my book is the most definitive account to date of the case.
In which case, by your logic there are literally NO well researched books about any historical subject you care to mention, all rubbish. Summers and Swann's book about 9/11 failed to interview Osama Bin Laden so how can we take it seriously, eh? Did they interview George Bush or Ariel Sharon? No? Well then, we may dismiss it as poorly researched, right?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 07, 2014, 07:10:16 PM
What I do know however is that even though Summers conducted extensive research for his book the File on the Tsar his conclusions couldn't have been more wrong and there is always the chance he is wrong here too.
It is quite possible that his conclusions re the Russian Royal Family were absolutely spot on based on the evidence at the time...
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 07, 2014, 07:18:40 PM
In which case, by your logic there are literally NO well researched books about any historical subject you care to mention, all rubbish. Summers and Swann's book about 9/11 failed to interview Osama Bin Laden so how can we take it seriously, eh? Did they interview George Bush or Ariel Sharon? No? Well then, we may dismiss it as poorly researched, right?
And how much access did Summers have to Bin Laden, Bush et al ? None I'd hazard a guess.
Did the author request an interview with the McCanns and if not, why not and if so why did the McCanns not agree ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 07, 2014, 07:21:22 PM
You must be extremely ignorant then, especially if you think it comes down to guesswork when deciding what happened on 9/11.
I don't think it comes down to guesswork and that is why I'm not guessing.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 07, 2014, 07:21:29 PM
Anyway, Faithlilly has made her position clear - the people who are in the best position to have the complete picture on this case are those with FULL access to ALL the protagonists. And the ONLY people who have that currently are the Met. And what do they think? Oh yes, read my signature line if you've forgotten...
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 07, 2014, 07:21:52 PM
Interesting.
On Amazon the price of this 'objective account' has been slashed from £18.99 to £10.
Must be a fantastic book then.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 07, 2014, 07:22:26 PM
Anyway, Faithlilly has made her position clear - the people who are in the best position to have the complete picture on this case are those with FULL access to ALL the protagonists. And the ONLY people who have that currently are the Met. And what do they think? Oh yes, read my signature line if you've forgotten...
and they have found, ah yes.
F.A.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 07, 2014, 07:23:34 PM
You didn't ask for an opinion - you asked me to tell you if the authors had contacted the McCanns and asked for an interview and if not why not. Seriously, how the hell should I know? Do you want me to make up an answer to satisfy you?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 07, 2014, 07:43:03 PM
I don't remember saying there was. I merely said that his conclusions, even with extensive research behind them. Have been proven to be wrong.
But on the available evidence at the time his conclusions were perfectly valid...this is an important point...the evidence that proved him wrong was not available at the time...so there was nothing wrong with his research either
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 07, 2014, 07:59:48 PM
But on the available evidence at the time his conclusions were perfectly valid...this is an important point...the evidence that proved him wrong was not available at the time...so there was nothing wrong with his research either
It can't have been any good as he didn't interview the main protagonists (Faithlilly logic).
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 07, 2014, 08:07:42 PM
let's put it this way...even Stephen will understand this..
The book does not name Murat as a suspect ... quite rightly...
If a body was found next month that proved with dna evidence that Murat was guilty..you can hardly blame the books authors for not suspecting him
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 07, 2014, 08:17:31 PM
But on the available evidence at the time his conclusions were perfectly valid...this is an important point...the evidence that proved him wrong was not available at the time...so there was nothing wrong with his research either
Again davel I absolutely agree but his conclusions were still wrong.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 07, 2014, 08:18:49 PM
That would have been rather difficult Alfred as they were all dead.
Really? I never knew.
But seriously, earlier you stated that you could not write a fully researched book about a subject without interviewing the main protagonists. If this truly is the case then no book about the Romanovs could ever be considered to be well researched. Correct?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 07, 2014, 08:51:42 PM
But seriously, earlier you stated that you could not write a fully researched book about a subject without interviewing the main protagonists. If this truly is the case then no book about the Romanovs could ever be considered to be well researched. Correct?
The Romanov book was as well researched as the sources allowed.
When conducting any kind of research the best results are always achieved by interviewing, if possible, the individuals closest to the the subject of the research. That's only common sense. The McCanns were of course at the centre of this particular maelstrom so it would unarguably be a priority, if your book were to have any credibility to interview them in person.
Why this did not happen we can only guess at although I would be very surprised if Summers hadn't asked for the McCanns input.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 07, 2014, 08:57:11 PM
The Romanov book was as well researched as the sources allowed.
When conducting any kind of research the best results are always achieved by interviewing, if possible, the individuals closest to the the subject of the research. That's only common sense. The McCanns were of course at the centre of this particular maelstrom so it would unarguably be a priority, if your book were to have any credibility to interview them in person.
Why this did not happen we can only guess at although I would be very surprised if Summers hadn't asked for the McCanns input.
You really must make it your business to find out. I suggest you e-mail Anthony asap, he might supply you with some material to fuel your McCann scepticism and disseminate online amongst your fellow sceptics.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Benice on September 07, 2014, 09:05:54 PM
You really must make it your business to find out. I suggest you e-mail Anthony asap, he might supply you with some material to fuel your McCann scepcism and disseminate online amongst your fellow sceptics.
Even if it hasn't been done already, I'm sure it won't be long before some sceptics will be accusing the authors of being on the McCanns payroll. Can you imagine the comments if the McCanns had been interviewed? That would be irrefutable evidence to the [ censored word ]s that it was all a put up job - and the book was really written by the McCanns.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 07, 2014, 09:19:12 PM
You really must make it your business to find out. I suggest you e-mail Anthony asap, he might supply you with some material to fuel your McCann scepticism and disseminate online amongst your fellow sceptics.
While I enjoy a bit of intelligently timed sarcasm as much as the next man Alfred it's never a substitute for proper, reasoned debate.
Still if that's all you have to bring to the table.......!!!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 07, 2014, 09:21:14 PM
Even if it hasn't been done already, I'm sure it won't be long before some sceptics will be accusing the authors of being on the McCanns payroll. Can you imagine the comments if the McCanns had been interviewed? That would be irrefutable evidence to the [ censored word ]s that it was all a put up job - and the book was really written by the McCanns.
Phew thank goodness they seem to have refused then Benice !
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 07, 2014, 09:23:32 PM
Even if it hasn't been done already, I'm sure it won't be long before some sceptics will be accusing the authors of being on the McCanns payroll. Can you imagine the comments if the McCanns had been interviewed? That would be irrefutable evidence to the [ censored word ]s that it was all a put up job - and the book was really written by the McCanns.
Of course it would.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 07, 2014, 09:24:56 PM
Even if it hasn't been done already, I'm sure it won't be long before some sceptics will be accusing the authors of being on the McCanns payroll. Can you imagine the comments if the McCanns had been interviewed? That would be irrefutable evidence to the [ censored word ]s that it was all a put up job - and the book was really written by the McCanns.
Did Carter-Ruck 'review' their book?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 07, 2014, 09:25:35 PM
Come, come there's no need to be coy Alfred. Either Summers didn't approach the McCanns which would raise questions about his proficiency as a journalist and thus the quality of his research or he did and the McCanns refused. Those are the only options.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 07, 2014, 09:50:47 PM
Come, come there's no need to be coy Alfred. Either Summers didn't approach the McCanns which would raise questions about his proficiency as a journalist and thus the quality of his research or he did and the McCanns refused. Those are the only options.
If you say so, but why don't you ask him and find out for sure?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 07, 2014, 09:57:09 PM
Why would I ask him Alfred when the answer is obvious, unless you can think of a different scenario ?
you have given two scenarios , one of which is that Summers didn't ask the McCanns for an interview, the other that they were asked and declined. Either scenario is possible but we won't know which is correct without asking the authors. So, as you have corresponded with them already what is stopping you asking them that question?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 07, 2014, 10:03:25 PM
you have given two scenarios , one of which is that Summers didn't ask the McCanns for an interview, the other that they were asked and declined. Either scenario is possible but we won't know which is correct without asking the authors. So, as you have corresponded with them already what is stopping you asking them that question?
I have given the only two scenarios possible, neither of which cover either the McCanns or Summers in glory.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Benice on September 07, 2014, 10:33:07 PM
Phew thank goodness they seem to have refused then Benice !
I forgot to add Faith - that the fact that they have not been interviewed will also be turned into another crime by the McCanns because - as every sceptic knows - everything the McCanns have said and everything they have done since the day they were born....................................is wrong.
Inexplicable but true.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 07, 2014, 10:41:51 PM
I forgot to add Faith - that the fact that they have not been interviewed will also be turned into another crime by the McCanns because - as every sceptic knows - everything the McCanns have said and everything they have done since the day they were born....................................is wrong.
Inexplicable but true.
Now stopping being silly Benice.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Benice on September 07, 2014, 11:09:21 PM
I have given the only two scenarios possible, neither of which cover either the McCanns or Summers in glory.
Please explain why not? If Summers and Swan chose not to interview the McCanns then that's not the McCanns' fault. If they decided not to be interviewed by Summers and Swan, that is their prerogative and shows that they have not colluded with the authors into portraying events only from their point of view. What does refusing an interview with an author who is writing a book about the case of your missing child, say about yourself then, in your view?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Wonderfulspam on September 08, 2014, 06:36:43 AM
Smithman is as guilty as sin.
No amount of Swann & Summers fiction novels or DCI Redwood sound bytes can change that reality.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 08, 2014, 07:45:29 AM
' Anjos has penned a damning article claiming the objective of the current Scotland Yard investigation into Madeleine’s seven-year disappearance has “never been to find out what happened to Maddie”. '
Instead, he maintains, it has “always been to remove suspicions of the McCanns”. - See more at: http://portugalresident.com/more-revelations-in-the-british-media#sthash.NrH6ancc.dpuf
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 08, 2014, 07:49:43 AM
' Anjos has penned a damning article claiming the objective of the current Scotland Yard investigation into Madeleine’s seven-year disappearance has “never been to find out what happened to Maddie”. '
Instead, he maintains, it has “always been to remove suspicions of the McCanns”. - See more at: http://portugalresident.com/more-revelations-in-the-british-media#sthash.NrH6ancc.dpuf
I think most of us realise the Portuguese resident is highly biased
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 08, 2014, 07:52:20 AM
The Romanov book was as well researched as the sources allowed.
When conducting any kind of research the best results are always achieved by interviewing, if possible, the individuals closest to the the subject of the research. That's only common sense. The McCanns were of course at the centre of this particular maelstrom so it would unarguably be a priority, if your book were to have any credibility to interview them in person.
Why this did not happen we can only guess at although I would be very surprised if Summers hadn't asked for the McCanns input.
amaral didn't interview or meet the mccanns ...no excuse as they weren't dead
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 08, 2014, 07:58:27 AM
I think most of us realise the Portuguese resident is highly biased
Only if your a mccann, or one of their acolytes.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Wonderfulspam on September 08, 2014, 09:58:19 AM
Swann & Summers Shite...
"Had there been a warning note in the apartment, do we think the McCanns would have left the patio door unlocked on the night they went to the other side of the pool to have dinner away from their children?
The back patio door as a point of entry/exit has long since been debunked.
If the imaginary abductor entered there, then he closed the child gate, door & curtains behind him, since Gerry didn't mention any of those things being disturbed, only the childrens bedroom door.
If the imaginary abductor left via the back door then he closed the curtains, door, child gate & gate behind him, the polite abductor.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 08, 2014, 10:17:56 AM
On Thursday we shall be able to download it onto our Kindles read it and form our own opinion. It is being hyped that the authors conducted original research or words to that effect.
Re the comment in WS post; why do you people think it is excusable to do something risky just because one has not been warned not to do so?
Steam is hot, sharp edges cut, leaving doors to accommodation and cars is inviting trouble; most people do not need labels to tell them so.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 08, 2014, 10:21:48 AM
On Thursday we shall be able to download it onto our Kindles read it and form our own opinion. It is being hyped that the authors conducted original research or words to that effect.
Re the comment in WS post; why do you people think it is excusable to do something risky just because one has not been warned not to do so?
Steam is hot, sharp edges cut, leaving doors to accommodation and cars is inviting trouble; most people do not need labels to tell them so.
Indeed Alice. I blame the nanny culture we now live in. There seems to be no place for personal responsibility any more.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Wonderfulspam on September 08, 2014, 10:29:39 AM
Indeed Alice. I blame the nanny culture we now live in. There seems to be no place for personal responsibility any more.
Why accept responsibility, when you can just blame imaginary child abducting anaesthetist paedophiles & sheeple will be gullible enough to believe you.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 08, 2014, 10:33:58 AM
Why accept responsibility, when you can just blame imaginary child abducting anaesthetist paedophiles & sheeple will be gullible enough to believe you.
..and that is what the mccanns and their allied press coverage hope for, gullibility.
I do wonder how many people reading the press realize that nothing even vaguely concrete has been uncovered to prove the existence of an abductor or abductors.
Then there are those who believe in the Flat Earth.
perhaps they need to be taken to the edge and dropped off . %£&)**# %£&)**# %£&)**# @)(++(*
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Eleanor on September 08, 2014, 11:03:26 AM
Okay, Folks. Can we go back to being relatively pleasant? This is a much nicer place when you are. All of you. And I know that you can do it.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 08, 2014, 11:06:42 AM
..and that is what the mccanns and their allied press coverage hope for, gullibility.
I do wonder how many people reading the press realize that nothing even vaguely concrete has been uncovered to prove the existence of an abductor or abductors.
Then there are those who believe in the Flat Earth.
perhaps they need to be taken to the edge and dropped off . %£&)**# %£&)**# %£&)**# @)(++(*
The massive flaw in your argument is that Redwood has stated that he believes Maddie is the victim of a criminal act by a stranger
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 08, 2014, 11:10:33 AM
if you cannot see that it is highly significant that SY and the Portuguese now believe that Maddie was the victim of stranger ...then you are being deliberately blind
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 08, 2014, 11:24:27 AM
if you cannot see that it is highly significant that SY and the Portuguese now believe that Maddie was the victim of stranger ...then you are being deliberately blind
Now please cite precisely what the PJ believe.
..and not from a newspaper.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: John on September 08, 2014, 04:29:29 PM
It is very clear from the spin previews of this book that nothing new has been uncovered but then again that is no surprise given the dead end which SY has now encountered.
Maybe we should write our own book on the case?
From Portugal Resident article...
Meanwhile, Carlos Anjos concludes his article in today’s Domingo supplement of Correio da Manhã with the only firm conviction of which he says he has “no doubt”: “The English (police) will stop (their investigation) on the day in which the Portuguese authorities say: enough. And, on this day, the British police will say they did not discover what happened (to Madeleine) because the Portuguese authorities did not let them”.
It is very clear from the spin previews of this book that nothing new has been uncovered but then again that is no surprise given the dead end which SY has now encountered.
Maybe we should write our own book on the case?
From Portugal Resident article...
Meanwhile, Carlos Anjos concludes his article in today’s Domingo supplement of Correio da Manhã with the only firm conviction of which he says he has “no doubt”: “The English (police) will stop (their investigation) on the day in which the Portuguese authorities say: enough. And, on this day, the British police will say they did not discover what happened (to Madeleine) because the Portuguese authorities did not let them”.
I can't see the Portuguese stopping the investigation by SY...I don't think the UK government would accept that. As I have said previously, the Resident is a very anti McCann paper
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Eleanor on September 08, 2014, 04:37:20 PM
You sing it and I'll dance it.
Actually, I might just go and have a lie down.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 08, 2014, 10:50:25 PM
It is very clear from the spin previews of this book that nothing new has been uncovered but then again that is no surprise given the dead end which SY has now encountered.
Maybe we should write our own book on the case?
From Portugal Resident article...
Meanwhile, Carlos Anjos concludes his article in today’s Domingo supplement of Correio da Manhã with the only firm conviction of which he says he has “no doubt”: “The English (police) will stop (their investigation) on the day in which the Portuguese authorities say: enough. And, on this day, the British police will say they did not discover what happened (to Madeleine) because the Portuguese authorities did not let them”.
Looking at the reviews of Summers books and those coauthored with Swan we have books on Madeleine McCann, John F Kennedy, Frank Sinatra,Marilyn Monroe, J Edgar Hoover, Stephen Ward and 9/11 all hyped as "The definitive work on..... (fill in as appropriate). Well now children shall be play spot the bandwagon? I can't wait til midnight plus 1 on Wed when I will receive my download.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 08, 2014, 11:00:21 PM
Off course the supporters will gobble the book up like a huge pork(ie) sandwich, only stopping to wipe the excited greasy dribble from the corners of their mouths.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: sadie on September 08, 2014, 11:08:08 PM
Off course the supporters will gobble the book up like a huge pork(ie) sandwich, only stopping to wipe the excited greasy dribble from the corners of their mouths.
*&*%£ *&*%£ 8(>((
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 08, 2014, 11:15:51 PM
Someone seems to have her nose put right out of joint about this here book, what a crying shame! @)(++(*
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 08, 2014, 11:25:00 PM
Someone seems to have her nose put right out of joint about this here book, what a crying shame! @)(++(*
Disappointed would be a better description. I really thought Mr Summers was better than this.
Still gloat if you wish Alfred. BTW what's your opinion on Summers and Swan making money from Madeleine's predicament ? Can I assume they'll be despised and castigated like Pat Brown has been ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Erngath on September 08, 2014, 11:32:21 PM
Off course the supporters will gobble the book up like a huge pork(ie) sandwich, only stopping to wipe the excited greasy dribble from the corners of their mouths.
I usually only read on this forum, have never felt the need to post until now.
My copy of Looking for Madeleine arrived this morning. I have only begun to read but can assure you that I am not wiping any "excited greasy dribble from my mouth''
My overwhelming feeling is one of sadness and increased bewilderment at the sceptic campaign. Note please that I do not use the h#t#r word. however the authors do not have the same polite restraint.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 08, 2014, 11:36:20 PM
Disappointed would be a better description. I really thought Mr Summers was better than this.
Still gloat if you wish Alfred. BTW what's your opinion on Summers and Swan making money from Madeleine's predicament ? Can I assume they'll be despised and castigated like Pat Brown has been ?
I'm not gloating, simply amused by your obvious put-outness. It must perplex you that, despite your best efforts to make Summers & Swan see things your way (and I assume that was why you engaged them in correspondence) they decided instead to write a book of "porkies" instead. How do you get your head round that, I wonder? I have no problem with S & S writing a professional and well-researched book on any subject and making money from it, as long as it is as accurate as it can be and causes no further distress to those involved.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 08, 2014, 11:39:21 PM
I usually only read on this forum, have never felt the need to post until now.
My copy of Looking for Madeleine arrived this morning. I have only begun to read but can assure you that I am not wiping any "excited greasy dribble from my mouth''
My overwhelming feeling is one of sadness and increased bewilderment at the sceptic campaign. Note please that I do not use the h#t#r word. however the authors do not have the same polite restraint.
It's the chapter on those folk that I'm most looking forward to reading I have to admit, now no spoilers please, Otherwise I won't enjoy my opportunity to dribble greasily all over the book when it arrives.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Erngath on September 08, 2014, 11:46:43 PM
It's the chapter on those folk that I'm most looking forward to reading I have to admit, now no spoilers please, Otherwise I won't enjoy my opportunity to dribble greasily all over the book when it arrives.
No spoilers Alfred . Possibly my one and only post. I found the "dribbling greasily" bit a little stomach churning but I will now retire to continue my reading of the book.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 08, 2014, 11:48:58 PM
No spoilers Alfred . Possibly my one and only post. I found the "dribbling greasily" bit a little stomach churning but I will now retire to continue my reading of the book.
You're very sensible - good night.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 08, 2014, 11:55:09 PM
I usually only read on this forum, have never felt the need to post until now.
My copy of Looking for Madeleine arrived this morning. I have only begun to read but can assure you that I am not wiping any "excited greasy dribble from my mouth''
My overwhelming feeling is one of sadness and increased bewilderment at the sceptic campaign. Note please that I do not use the h#t#r word. however the authors do not have the same polite restraint.
I'd be interested to know how you obtained your copy of the book when it isn't published to the 11th ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 09, 2014, 12:08:18 AM
I've order this book and his one on JFK - Not in your Lifetime. I haven't read a JFK book for some time.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 09, 2014, 12:14:02 AM
I'm not gloating, simply amused by your obvious put-outness. It must perplex you that, despite your best efforts to make Summers & Swan see things your way (and I assume that was why you engaged them in correspondence) they decided instead to write a book of "porkies" instead. How do you get your head round that, I wonder? I have no problem with S & S writing a professional and well-researched book on any subject and making money from it, as long as it is as accurate as it can be and causes no further distress to those involved.
My correspondence with Mr Summers began sometime after the final draughts of Looking for Madeleine had been submitted and my aim was never to change his mind strange as that may seem. From what I have seen the book seems to contain little fresh research, no input from the main protagonists nor, it would seem, any government body. Of course I could be wrong and Mr Summers has indeed turned up some never before seen evidence that exonerates the McCanns but somehow I doubt it.
I am surprised however that you approve of Mr Summers making money from Madeleine's plight seeing as you have long castigated any other author who has done the self same thing but I'm sure as long as the McCanns aren't seen as the guilty party you wouldn't bat an eyelid if Mr Summers had produced a Madeleine doll which pleaded ' mummy why didn't you come when Sean and I cried' when you pressed her stomach.
For all apologist's sakes I just pray that Madeleine's small body is not concealed in some lonely isolated spot, put there to hide her parent's shame because if so I don't know how you will live with yourself. I know I couldn't.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Wonderfulspam on September 09, 2014, 06:55:17 AM
My correspondence with Mr Summers began sometime after the final draughts of Looking for Madeleine had been submitted and my aim was never to change his mind strange as that may seem. From what I have seen the book seems to contain little fresh research, no input from the main protagonists nor, it would seem, any government body. Of course I could be wrong and Mr Summers has indeed turned up some never before seen evidence that exonerates the McCanns but somehow I doubt it.
I am surprised however that you approve of Mr Summers making money from Madeleine's plight seeing as you have long castigated any other author who has done the self same thing but I'm sure as long as the McCanns aren't seen as the guilty party you wouldn't bat an eyelid if Mr Summers had produced a Madeleine doll which pleaded ' mummy why didn't you come when Sean and I cried' when you pressed her stomach.
For all apologist's sakes I just pray that Madeleine's small body is not concealed in some lonely isolated spot, put there to hide her parent's shame because if so I don't know how you will live with yourself. I know I couldn't.
8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 09, 2014, 07:07:32 AM
My correspondence with Mr Summers began sometime after the final draughts of Looking for Madeleine had been submitted and my aim was never to change his mind strange as that may seem. From what I have seen the book seems to contain little fresh research, no input from the main protagonists nor, it would seem, any government body. Of course I could be wrong and Mr Summers has indeed turned up some never before seen evidence that exonerates the McCanns but somehow I doubt it.
I am surprised however that you approve of Mr Summers making money from Madeleine's plight seeing as you have long castigated any other author who has done the self same thing but I'm sure as long as the McCanns aren't seen as the guilty party you wouldn't bat an eyelid if Mr Summers had produced a Madeleine doll which pleaded ' mummy why didn't you come when Sean and I cried' when you pressed her stomach.
For all apologist's sakes I just pray that Madeleine's small body is not concealed in some lonely isolated spot, put there to hide her parent's shame because if so I don't know how you will live with yourself. I know I couldn't.
I don't think you have anything to worry about on that score
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Wonderfulspam on September 09, 2014, 07:19:30 AM
Swan & Summers book has the sliding door as a possible point of entry/exit.
That's how well researched it isn't.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 09, 2014, 07:24:44 AM
I will when I get a moment...jemmied shutters for one...cadaver dogs alerting to cadaver..there are loads... I am quite at liberty to accuse anyone of lying if I have and can show proof
You can't show any proof dave, because you weren't in Portugal, at the time of Madeleine's disappearance, were you ?
All you have is the accounts of the mccanns and associates, and the truth of their accounts has yet to be tested in a court of law. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 09, 2014, 07:32:52 AM
My correspondence with Mr Summers began sometime after the final draughts of Looking for Madeleine had been submitted and my aim was never to change his mind strange as that may seem. From what I have seen the book seems to contain little fresh research, no input from the main protagonists nor, it would seem, any government body. Of course I could be wrong and Mr Summers has indeed turned up some never before seen evidence that exonerates the McCanns but somehow I doubt it.
I am surprised however that you approve of Mr Summers making money from Madeleine's plight seeing as you have long castigated any other author who has done the self same thing but I'm sure as long as the McCanns aren't seen as the guilty party you wouldn't bat an eyelid if Mr Summers had produced a Madeleine doll which pleaded ' mummy why didn't you come when Sean and I cried' when you pressed her stomach.
For all apologist's sakes I just pray that Madeleine's small body is not concealed in some lonely isolated spot, put there to hide her parent's shame because if so I don't know how you will live with yourself. I know I couldn't.
Oh for god's sake, what santimonious and offensive twaddle. How will YOU live with yourself when Madeleine's abductor is eventually identified, that's what I'd really like to know. Seven plus years of organised, determined snidery - for what??
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 09, 2014, 09:45:17 AM
Could Madeleine be safe and well-cared for? In this edited extract from 'Looking for Madeleine', a new book on the McCann case, the authors analyse the theory that the three-year-old may still be alive
By Anthony Summers and Robbyn Swan
7:00AM BST 09 Sep 2014
Former Detective Inspector Ian Horrocks, who was with the Metropolitan Police for 30 years, studied Madeleine’s case over many months, visited Praia da Luz and produced a lengthy summary of his views. He theorised, drawing on his experience of kidnapping cases, that the abduction may have been done by “someone who wanted her as part of his or their family”.
Thefts of babies do occur. Typically, an infant is taken within days of his or her birth, often from hospitals. Such an abduction, studies by the US National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC) suggest, may be committed by a previously pregnant woman who has miscarried, or one who finds herself infertile, or one who has a male partner but is not living with him and wants to get him back.
In the UK, there was for a time a charity that – among its other causes – supported women who had kidnapped children. The Portia Trust’s founder, Ken Norman, claimed most such women are not mentally ill but simply “cannot accept that their child is dead or have an unbearable desire for a baby of their own. They may have spent months, even years, looking for a child that resembles the one they have lost and is of the same age.”
The very purpose of such child thefts is to nurture the child, to raise it to adulthood as if it were the woman’s own. “The babies are very rarely harmed,” a NCMEC spokesman has said. “The recovery rate is very good.”
In one case in the United States, a woman aged 23 contacted NCMEC on realising she had neither birth certificate nor Social Security card. Her case was investigated and her true biological parents identified. The parents had never given up hope that they would find their missing daughter – just as the McCanns have said they will never give up hope of finding Madeleine. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/11082517/Could-Madeleine-be-safe-and-well-cared-for.html
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 09, 2014, 09:49:43 AM
Could Madeleine be safe and well-cared for? In this edited extract from 'Looking for Madeleine', a new book on the McCann case, the authors analyse the theory that the three-year-old may still be alive
By Anthony Summers and Robbyn Swan
7:00AM BST 09 Sep 2014
Former Detective Inspector Ian Horrocks, who was with the Metropolitan Police for 30 years, studied Madeleine’s case over many months, visited Praia da Luz and produced a lengthy summary of his views. He theorised, drawing on his experience of kidnapping cases, that the abduction may have been done by “someone who wanted her as part of his or their family”.
Thefts of babies do occur. Typically, an infant is taken within days of his or her birth, often from hospitals. Such an abduction, studies by the US National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC) suggest, may be committed by a previously pregnant woman who has miscarried, or one who finds herself infertile, or one who has a male partner but is not living with him and wants to get him back.
In the UK, there was for a time a charity that – among its other causes – supported women who had kidnapped children. The Portia Trust’s founder, Ken Norman, claimed most such women are not mentally ill but simply “cannot accept that their child is dead or have an unbearable desire for a baby of their own. They may have spent months, even years, looking for a child that resembles the one they have lost and is of the same age.”
The very purpose of such child thefts is to nurture the child, to raise it to adulthood as if it were the woman’s own. “The babies are very rarely harmed,” a NCMEC spokesman has said. “The recovery rate is very good.”
In one case in the United States, a woman aged 23 contacted NCMEC on realising she had neither birth certificate nor Social Security card. Her case was investigated and her true biological parents identified. The parents had never given up hope that they would find their missing daughter – just as the McCanns have said they will never give up hope of finding Madeleine. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/11082517/Could-Madeleine-be-safe-and-well-cared-for.html
Well that shows the value of the book.
Horrocks a nobody, and paid by the sun to 'investigate'.
Abduction stated as fact, yet again. It isn't.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Erngath on September 09, 2014, 11:50:12 AM
I'd be interested to know how you obtained your copy of the book when it isn't published to the 11th ?
I ordered the book on the first of September and was indeed very surprised when it was delivered yesterday. It cost ten pounds with free delivery from a well known Supermarket website. I have no idea why it was delivered before the publication day but it was.
I won't post any details as I don't want to spoil the reading of the book for others and I am unsure of copyright rules.
However just to confirm that I do absolutely have the book............... From the Index
Almeida, Tavares de 162-3 172 174 183
Rebello Paulo 183-4 188
Smith Martin 114 115 116-7 226 255
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 09, 2014, 12:47:27 PM
I ordered the book on the first of September and was indeed very surprised when it was delivered yesterday. It cost ten pounds with free delivery from a well known Supermarket website. I have no idea why it was delivered before the publication day but it was.
I won't post any details as I don't want to spoil the reading of the book for others and I am unsure of copyright rules.
However just to confirm that I do absolutely have the book............... From the Index
Almeida, Tavares de 162-3 172 174 183
Rebello Paulo 183-4 188
Smith Martin 114 115 116-7 226 255
I was anticipating a trip to town and a good browse in Waterstones so didn't bother to order mine and I am envious, Erngath.
Without giving anything away ... did they give Jane Tanner's sighting as much coverage as they have the Smith sighting? After looking at the map posted by John on another thread, I still think there is a secluded route to the car park opposite the tapas restaurant.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 09, 2014, 12:47:46 PM
Mercy me it is amusing to watch people in a lather over a book they have not read yet. Maybe Erngath will be kind enough to quote us the last two lines from Chapter 4?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 09, 2014, 04:26:53 PM
Scathing piece on one of Summers past efforts, penned by his former colleague Tom Mangold last year.
Stephen Ward wasn't murdered. I was there
Journalism is further discredited by half-baked claims that the osteopath at the centre of the Profumo affair, was killed
Whether Andrew Lloyd Webber's musical which opens next week about the life and death of Stephen Ward succeeds or fails it is a generous gesture for the impresario to use this device as the platform to campaign for a judicial review of the conviction half a century ago of the society osteopath. It was an event which led directly to his suicide. He was at the centre of the Profumo sex and spies scandal which rocked Britain in 1963 when the War minister had an affair with the showgirl Christine Keeler who claimed to be sleeping with a London-based Russian intelligence officer Eugene Ivanov at the same time. Ward killed himself having been targeted by a vindictive state seeking a scapegoat for Profumo's behaviour; was prosecuted for crimes that it is now generally accepted he did not commit, facing evidence from witnesses who were coerced by police into lying; and pilloried by a hysterical tabloid press. Fearing contamination, most of his many "friends" deserted him, and British intelligence agencies who had been happy to use him failed to speak up for him in court. Ward was a broken man when he took an overdose of sleeping tablets while staying with one last friend in a flat in Chelsea. I know. I was with him that night.
The anniversary has been celebrated by conspiracy theorists crawling, blinking into the light to announce to stunned newspaper readers the sensational revelation that Stephen Ward "may" have been murdered by MI5. A former colleague of mine from 40 years ago, the author Anthony Summers, a man with some form when it comes to conspiracy theories, has now determined that: "One can see why it may, repeat may, have been necessary to remove Ward from the scene … this was apparently a man with dangerous knowledge … he had inside information of MI5 efforts to manipulate Ivanov and the seamy activities of Establishment figures." Summers has lent his reputation to a conspiracy theory – please don't giggle – which has an MI5 contract killer hiding in the Chelsea flat all night, then waking the drowsy Ward every few hours and inciting him to take ever increasing overdoses of the sleeping tablets which eventually killed him. The alleged killer is now conveniently dead but allegedly told a gabby friend on his deathbed…
Summers's interviews on this well publicised theory, published by two reputable national newspapers last week, brim with weasel words. "The story ends with a question mark," says Summers darkly. No it doesn't. It is junk journalism at its very worst, complete piffle, a disgrace to our trade. Believe it if you believe Lord Lucan and Elvis are living under pseudonyms in a mud hut in Uganda. We are in so many ways the first and often the last draft of history; newspaper records and their on-line spill-over really do matter. Lies and rotten journalism go viral in seconds. We really do have a clear compact with our readers, listeners and viewers to get it right. We are in enough trouble with Leveson and hacking and the shame of neurotic celebrity worship, without allowing so-called investigative journalism reaching "maybe" and "could have" conclusions without a shred of primary source evidence. And even less so when the "revelation" is tied in with a re-hashed book release.
What baffles me is that Summers did not bother to make the two simple "check your facts" phone calls, one to me and one to the other man in the flat that night, the tenant Noel Howard-Jones. They would have brought his loony-tunes theory crashing to the ground. Summers also seems to have forgotten that MI5 and MI6 don't do assassinations. Period. State-sanctioned killings, invariably against major terrorist organisations or well-armed enemies of the state, are done by others. So let me try to set the record straight with some facts.
What did happen on the night of Tuesday 30 July 1963 at Vale Court, 20 Mallord Street, Chelsea? Stephen was overnighting there with his friend Noel Howard-Jones. That evening Stephen called me in the Daily Express newsroom and asked me to come over to Mallord Street. I arrived there about 8.30pm. He was writing what I now know were his suicide notes. A friend Julie Gulliver was in the kitchen cooking dinner. Howard-Jones was out. I stayed with Stephen for several hours during which he gave me the note addressed to me, which regrettably I didn't read till later. At about 11.35pm, I left him, and he left the flat to drive Julie back to her flat in Bayswater. Howard-Jones returned a few minutes later, and was there to let Ward in on his return at about midnight before going to bed. Ward then continued writing notes including one to Howard-Jones saying "delay resuscitation as long as possible".
There was no MI5 assassin hiding in the flat when Stephen, Julie and I were there; and there was no assassin when Howard-Jones returned. So we can account for the entire evening from 8.45pm to the moment Howard-Jones found Ward unconscious on the living-room divan in the morning. We know, for certain that no MI5 murderer was hiding in the tiny flat. Even the alleged "instrument of murder" – the Nembutal sleeping tablets, were Stephen's own.
Does all this matter – half a century later? Very much so. In a democracy, a free press must be trusted. Once we break down the firewalls between truth and conspiracy theory, once we enter the wilderness of unreality, paranoid fantasy will become our guide. Yes, this stuff sells more papers than the grey truth. But that makes it no less a form of editorial pornography. Don't believe all you read in the press? Sadly true.
Tom Mangold, former senior correspondent for BBC TV's 'Panorama', covered the Profumo Affair for the Daily Express in 1963
I was anticipating a trip to town and a good browse in Waterstones so didn't bother to order mine and I am envious, Erngath.
Without giving anything away ... did they give Jane Tanner's sighting as much coverage as they have the Smith sighting? After looking at the map posted by John on another thread, I still think there is a secluded route to the car park opposite the tapas restaurant.
Sorry Brietta I have only scanned the book but going by the number of pages in the index referring to Jane Tanner and the sighting I would say there is as much coverage if not more than the Smith sighting but I would have to read the book in its entirety before being really able to make a judgement .
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Erngath on September 09, 2014, 04:59:20 PM
Mercy me it is amusing to watch people in a lather over a book they have not read yet. Maybe Erngath will be kind enough to quote us the last two lines from Chapter 4?
Can I ask why you wish me to quote the last two lines of Chapter 4?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 09, 2014, 05:41:40 PM
Scathing piece on one of Summers past efforts, penned by his former colleague Tom Mangold last year.
Stephen Ward wasn't murdered. I was there
Journalism is further discredited by half-baked claims that the osteopath at the centre of the Profumo affair, was killed
Whether Andrew Lloyd Webber's musical which opens next week about the life and death of Stephen Ward succeeds or fails it is a generous gesture for the impresario to use this device as the platform to campaign for a judicial review of the conviction half a century ago of the society osteopath. It was an event which led directly to his suicide. He was at the centre of the Profumo sex and spies scandal which rocked Britain in 1963 when the War minister had an affair with the showgirl Christine Keeler who claimed to be sleeping with a London-based Russian intelligence officer Eugene Ivanov at the same time. Ward killed himself having been targeted by a vindictive state seeking a scapegoat for Profumo's behaviour; was prosecuted for crimes that it is now generally accepted he did not commit, facing evidence from witnesses who were coerced by police into lying; and pilloried by a hysterical tabloid press. Fearing contamination, most of his many "friends" deserted him, and British intelligence agencies who had been happy to use him failed to speak up for him in court. Ward was a broken man when he took an overdose of sleeping tablets while staying with one last friend in a flat in Chelsea. I know. I was with him that night.
The anniversary has been celebrated by conspiracy theorists crawling, blinking into the light to announce to stunned newspaper readers the sensational revelation that Stephen Ward "may" have been murdered by MI5. A former colleague of mine from 40 years ago, the author Anthony Summers, a man with some form when it comes to conspiracy theories, has now determined that: "One can see why it may, repeat may, have been necessary to remove Ward from the scene … this was apparently a man with dangerous knowledge … he had inside information of MI5 efforts to manipulate Ivanov and the seamy activities of Establishment figures." Summers has lent his reputation to a conspiracy theory – please don't giggle – which has an MI5 contract killer hiding in the Chelsea flat all night, then waking the drowsy Ward every few hours and inciting him to take ever increasing overdoses of the sleeping tablets which eventually killed him. The alleged killer is now conveniently dead but allegedly told a gabby friend on his deathbed…
Summers's interviews on this well publicised theory, published by two reputable national newspapers last week, brim with weasel words. "The story ends with a question mark," says Summers darkly. No it doesn't. It is junk journalism at its very worst, complete piffle, a disgrace to our trade. Believe it if you believe Lord Lucan and Elvis are living under pseudonyms in a mud hut in Uganda. We are in so many ways the first and often the last draft of history; newspaper records and their on-line spill-over really do matter. Lies and rotten journalism go viral in seconds. We really do have a clear compact with our readers, listeners and viewers to get it right. We are in enough trouble with Leveson and hacking and the shame of neurotic celebrity worship, without allowing so-called investigative journalism reaching "maybe" and "could have" conclusions without a shred of primary source evidence. And even less so when the "revelation" is tied in with a re-hashed book release.
What baffles me is that Summers did not bother to make the two simple "check your facts" phone calls, one to me and one to the other man in the flat that night, the tenant Noel Howard-Jones. They would have brought his loony-tunes theory crashing to the ground. Summers also seems to have forgotten that MI5 and MI6 don't do assassinations. Period. State-sanctioned killings, invariably against major terrorist organisations or well-armed enemies of the state, are done by others. So let me try to set the record straight with some facts.
What did happen on the night of Tuesday 30 July 1963 at Vale Court, 20 Mallord Street, Chelsea? Stephen was overnighting there with his friend Noel Howard-Jones. That evening Stephen called me in the Daily Express newsroom and asked me to come over to Mallord Street. I arrived there about 8.30pm. He was writing what I now know were his suicide notes. A friend Julie Gulliver was in the kitchen cooking dinner. Howard-Jones was out. I stayed with Stephen for several hours during which he gave me the note addressed to me, which regrettably I didn't read till later. At about 11.35pm, I left him, and he left the flat to drive Julie back to her flat in Bayswater. Howard-Jones returned a few minutes later, and was there to let Ward in on his return at about midnight before going to bed. Ward then continued writing notes including one to Howard-Jones saying "delay resuscitation as long as possible".
There was no MI5 assassin hiding in the flat when Stephen, Julie and I were there; and there was no assassin when Howard-Jones returned. So we can account for the entire evening from 8.45pm to the moment Howard-Jones found Ward unconscious on the living-room divan in the morning. We know, for certain that no MI5 murderer was hiding in the tiny flat. Even the alleged "instrument of murder" – the Nembutal sleeping tablets, were Stephen's own.
Does all this matter – half a century later? Very much so. In a democracy, a free press must be trusted. Once we break down the firewalls between truth and conspiracy theory, once we enter the wilderness of unreality, paranoid fantasy will become our guide. Yes, this stuff sells more papers than the grey truth. But that makes it no less a form of editorial pornography. Don't believe all you read in the press? Sadly true.
Tom Mangold, former senior correspondent for BBC TV's 'Panorama', covered the Profumo Affair for the Daily Express in 1963
You really are desperate to denigrate the book. I haven't noticed any criticism of amarals book which is filled with falsehoods and written by a convicted perjuror...Is this a sign that your opinions are as biased as a one sided bowling ball
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 09, 2014, 06:24:27 PM
I'm looking forward to reading their analysis of the conspiracy theories surrounding the case, as well as their comments about the online campaign against the parents.
I'm looking forward to reading the comments on Amazon contradicting the book and blaming the parents. Should be a few about short sleeved pyjamas being an obvious sign of guilt.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 09, 2014, 06:27:16 PM
From reviews of Mr Summers books by colleagues and members of the public two main gripes seems to be levelled at him again and again and that is that he relies heavily on investigative work done by others and conducts little fresh research himself and that the research that he does do rarely includes talking to the major players in the cases he is investigating.
I'm afraid if the extracts that have already been published are indicative of the contents of Looking for Madeleine as a whole he doesn't seem to have changed his MO which is not only disappointing for the reader but will do nothing to enhance Mr Summers reputation.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 09, 2014, 06:34:57 PM
I'm looking forward to reading the comments on Amazon contradicting the book and blaming the parents. Should be a few about short sleeved pyjamas being an obvious sign of guilt.
Summers and Swan are braced for a plethora of one star reviews on the day of publication, most from people who have neither read the book, nor plan to buy it, of that I'm sure.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Wonderfulspam on September 09, 2014, 06:45:22 PM
I'm looking forward to reading the comments on Amazon contradicting the book and blaming the parents. Should be a few about short sleeved pyjamas being an obvious sign of guilt.
Kate 'did not tell the truth' about the child's arm's/sleeves.
McCann Oprah 4th May 2009
Gerry : "Jane went to check on her children and it was at that point she was just passed us going up to the corner and she saw a man carrying a young girl with almo.. she described independently the pyjamas that Madeleine had on.."
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Montclair on September 09, 2014, 06:56:43 PM
From the excerpts I have read so far it seems to me that Summers and Swan's book is nothing more than a rehash of newspaper articles over the last 7 years. His main investigative tool must have been Google search.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Wonderfulspam on September 09, 2014, 06:57:39 PM
From the excerpts I have read so far it seems to me that Summers and Swan's book is nothing more than a rehash of newspaper articles over the last 7 years. His main investigative tool must have been Google search.
...and Kate's book.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 09, 2014, 07:05:10 PM
Sorry Brietta I have only scanned the book but going by the number of pages in the index referring to Jane Tanner and the sighting I would say there is as much coverage if not more than the Smith sighting but I would have to read the book in its entirety before being really able to make a judgement .
Thank you Erngath ... I am just being impatient, of course you must have time to digest and think about the content before saying anything ... enjoy your read, I think I will be burning the midnight oil on Thursday, I've cleared the decks in anticipation.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Erngath on September 09, 2014, 07:07:23 PM
To satisfy your idle curiosity...................." of visits they received from a charity collector-or collectors-for a charity that apparently did not exist"
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Wonderfulspam on September 09, 2014, 07:09:31 PM
Still clinging to Bundleman then, even going so far as talking to yourself about it, there's a surprise.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 09, 2014, 09:00:19 PM
To satisfy your idle curiosity...................." of visits they received from a charity collector-or collectors-for a charity that apparently did not exist"
Apparently ? In his extensive research why didn't Mr Summers interview the people who gave statements, find out what the orphanage was called and investigate properly if it existed ? Isn't that what an investigative journalist does, follows the clues ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 09, 2014, 09:02:25 PM
Apparently ? In his extensive research why didn't Mr Summers interview the people who gave statements, find out what the orphanage was called and investigate properly if it existed ? Isn't that what an investigative journalist does, follows the clues ?
Are you interested in the book...I'M not...do you really think there is anymore information out there?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 10, 2014, 10:13:37 AM
Baltimore Sun The Nixon sensationalism: A failure of accountability A highly credentialed authority takes Anthony Summers and Viking to task for compromising professionalism. September 10, 2000 By STEVE WEINBERG | SPECIAL TO THE BALTIMORE SUN
The latest sensationalism about Richard Nixon demonstrates what's best and what's worst about big-time New York book publishing. Authors and publishers should -- must -- be held accountable for published works. There's a simple standard: Just say no to sensationalism and the hype that emphasizes the sensational over the substantive. The book in this case is "The Arrogance of Power: The Secret World of Richard Nixon"(640 pages, $29.95). The author is Irish investigative reporter Anthony Summers. The big New York City publisher is Viking, an imprint of Penguin Putnam Inc.
First, how does the book represent what's best about big-time publishing? As with Summers' massive earlier books about J. Edgar Hoover, Marilyn Monroe and the John F. Kennedy assassination, "The Arrogance of Power" demonstrates that the author spends long hours over many years traveling paper trails and people trails as he seeks to understand his subject. For all their flaws, Summers' books have value. Hooray for the publishers like Viking that pay authors enough in advance so that kind of research is possible to conduct. In many ways, "The Arrogance of Power" is the best one-volume, full-life biography of Nixon ever published. The storyline hangs together well, the writing is capable, the explanation for doing yet another Nixon book (Summers' bibliography lists 51 previous biographies, plus dozens more about his presidential years) is acceptable.
So, how is the book representative of what's worst in New York publishing -- the sensationalisitic parts, and the hyping of them? To casual readers, the sensationalism might not always stand out. Summers (assisted by his journalist-wife Robbyn Swan as well as hired researchers) gives even the most precarious evidence the patina of credibility through copious endnotes. "The Arrogance of Power" contains 116 pages of endnotes, set in type so tiny that the page count really ought to be much higher. How many readers will spend much (if any) time matching the information in the text to the sourcing in the endnotes? Not many.
But looking at the book's sourcing, especially the sourcing for some of its "gotcha" moments, is revelatory. One of Summers' freshest, most sensational allegations is that during their 53-year marriage, Richard Nixon beat his wife, Pat, at least once, maybe more often.Viking called attention to the allegation in the press release accompanying the book's publication on Aug. 28. The release says "On the night of his electoral defeat in 1962 ... Nixon's wife Pat required medical treatment following an assault by her husband." And the book is already teasing readers to the information by page xiv of the preface, where Summers writes of "touching testimonials" at Richard Nixon's funeral to the long marriage, then adds, "Other memories told a sadder story -- of prolonged marital difficulty, of physical abuse, of threatened divorce."
It's legitimate for a biographer to examine his subject's marital relations. But when the evidence is shaky, the findings ought to remain unpublished, or at least unhyped. The detailed allegations of wife beating appear on pages 232-237. Summers writes there how research "suggests that Nixon physically attacked his wife after his loss in 1962." In the text itself and the endnotes, here are the sources mentioned for the supposedly compelling scenario:
* A statement by Nixon rival Gov. Pat Brown "years later" that "[w]e got word at one stage of the campaign that he kicked the hell out of her, beat her." The endnotes show that the Brown statement came from the papers of long-ago Nixon biographer Fawn Brodie. How many readers will notice that? If they do notice, how many will know that among many professional biographers like myself, Brodie, while sometimes considered spottily brilliant, is frequently dismissed as an unreliable researcher and writer? * An echo of Brown's statement by his aide Frank Cullen. Did Cullen have independent knowledge? Or did he merely listen to the hearsay from his boss? It is hard to know, based on Summers' rendition. * A comment by journalist Bill Van Petten "years later" that sometime just before or just after Nixon's bitter public speech in defeat he "beat Pat badly ... so badly that she could not go out the next day." The phrasing suggests Van Petten might have been a witness, but a few sentences later, Summers writes: "Van Petten is dead, and his account as related here comes from a friend to whom he spoke in the early eighties." The endnote about Van Petten's information is confusing rather than enlightening. Despite several readings, I have no idea what it means
After providing the Van Petten information, Summers writes, "the first credible corroboration of the 1962 beating allegation was provided by John Sears, a former Nixon aide who went on to political distinction." The use of the word "credible" raises an alarming question: If Sears is the first source Summers finds credible, why is he including Brown, Cullen and Van Petten as sources (indirect as they may be)? Sears, Summers says in the text, received his information long after 1962 from Waller Taylor, the Nixon family's lawyer, and from Pat Hillings, identified as Nixon's "long-time friend and associate." Furthermore, "As Sears understood it from Taylor, the 1962 beating was not an isolated incident. Spousal abuse, indeed, is almost always repetitive." Maybe Taylor and Hillings had firsthand knowledge, maybe secondhand knowledge, maybe even less reliable information. There is no way to know from Summers' book.
In 1993, I spent weeks reading Summers' biography "Official and Confidential: The Secret Life of J. Edgar Hoover," comparing and contrasting Summers' biography with three previous biographies of Hoover researched by scholars and journalists. Putnam is the publisher. My research resulted in a review of the books for the Washington City Paper that appeared in the March 26, 1993, issue. Despite being last in the publishing line, Summers presented some useful new information and new interpretations of older information.
But, as with "The Arrogance of Power," Summers is guilty of arrogance of hype. The most sensational passages purported to show that he-man, G-man Hoover was a homosexual and a cross-dresser. If true, that information carried significance, especially if it opened up Hoover to blackmail by members of organized crime families and other unsavory elements. So, I wondered, had all the previous biographers missed the evidence? Or found the so-called evidence and discarded it? I can admit this: I wanted to accept Summers' evidence because of my visceral dislike for Hoover and my admiration for first-rate investigative reporting, even when the subject matter is salacious. But after checking Summers' documentation as carefully as an outside reviewer without subpoena power can, I found myself disbelieving many passages in Summers' book about Hoover's sexual orientation. That Summers would include damning information based on such weak evidence made me wonder what Summers and his publisher would do for an encore. Now I know.
As for Summers, I distrust the most sensationalistic revelations. As for Viking, I worry whether the drive toward best seller status has compromised standards of truth.
Steve Weinberg is a biographer in Columbia, Mo. From 1983-1990, he served as executive director of Investigative Reporters & Editors (IRE), an international organization based at the University of Missouri Journalism School. Among his six published books is "The Reporter's Handbook: An Investigator's Guide to Documents and Techniques," written for IRE and published by St. Martin's Press. He is working on a revised edition. http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2000-0 ... -summers/2
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 10, 2014, 11:41:38 AM
Get Ready to Swoon 8)--))
Madeleine McCann: 'I listened for 15 seconds and knew they were innocent’ By Anthony Summers and Robbyn Swan7:05AM BST 10 Sep 2014
A wealthy British businessman was moved to help search for Madeleine McCann after her parents Kate and Gerry became suspects
Gerry and Kate McCann never ceased doing what they could to move forward the investigation – which they saw as stalled – into Madeleine’s disappearance. They held, always, to the belief that their daughter could still be alive. When they returned to the UK from Portugal in September 2007, Gerry insisted it did not mean they were giving up their search for her. ''As parents we cannot give up on our daughter until we know what has happened.” Three days later, someone who was to be of great and lasting assistance to them got in touch. Brian Kennedy, a wealthy British businessman, had been following events as they unwound in Portugal and wanted to help. “I was incredulous,” he told us. “I’d been losing all hope and faith in human nature. I had been asking myself, 'How is this possible?’ [Kate] is grieving. My instincts were telling me there was a great injustice being done. I called my lawyer and said, 'I want you to reach out to these poor folks and see if we can help them’.” Kennedy, the Scottish-born, Cheshire-based son of a window cleaner, then aged 47, had leapfrogged from trainee accountant to a management role in a kitchen-equipment company, then to the mobile-phone business, double-glazing and plastics. By 2007 his net worth as head of his company, Latium Enterprises, was said to be £250 million.
An experiment with retirement had driven him “nuts” and he was back in the business fray. When he began talking about trying to help the McCanns, friends and colleagues told him not to get involved, that his intervention would end in tears. “What,” he recalled someone saying, “if the parents turn out to be guilty?” “I remember replying, 'What happens if they’re innocent?’ Can you imagine the horror of losing your daughter… and then the world turning against you and accusing you of being responsible for her murder? Is it not bad enough, the terror, the agony they are going through? I could understand it – I’ve got five kids. I told my lawyer, 'If you feel they’re innocent, then we’ll get behind them and help them’.”
His lawyer made contact with the McCanns and they met Kennedy in London. “Within 15 seconds of listening to Kate,” he said, “I made a decision, using all the emotional intelligence one builds up over many years. I was 100 per cent convinced of their total innocence. I told them that, one, we would find a top Portuguese lawyer to defend them, and get them off as arguidos [the McCanns had been designated “named suspects” by the Portuguese authorities days before they returned to England]. Two, we’d do everything in our power to influence the public’s perspective and views. And, three, we’d support them in setting up some private investigators … The Portuguese police had stopped investigating. It was urgent to get some other guys on to it.” Top-level legal help was found in Portugal. At Kennedy’s bidding and at his expense, Clarence Mitchell – a government adviser who had previously acted as the McCanns’ spokesman in Praia da Luz, the holiday resort from where Madeleine had disappeared – quit his Whitehall job and came back on-board. Kennedy prefers not to reveal how much he spent on helping the McCanns, beyond saying that there were “substantial” outgoings – principally legal and media-related costs. Stephen Winyard, the owner of Stobo Castle Spa, in Peebleshire, and Sir Richard Branson also contributed. However, it was Madeleine’s Fund – the not-for-profit company established to find her in 2007, the board of which Kennedy’s then lawyer joined – that would, in time, deal with the cost of private investigators, once that effort went into high gear.
Present at Kennedy’s first meeting with the McCanns in London were representatives of Control Risks, a firm specialising in security and crisis management. It had already sent detectives to Portugal to see the couple right after Madeleine’s disappearance, at the expense of an anonymous donor whose identity has never been revealed. Kate McCann had not enjoyed that first encounter. One of the Control Risk operatives was a mysterious figure who introduced himself only as “Hugh”. He was one of the many former intelligence officers the company employed, and a main part of his role now was as a potential kidnap negotiator. Kate, already distraught, had not liked the James Bond atmosphere he brought with him. Besides, there would never be anybody other than hoaxers with whom to negotiate. As the McCanns’ renewed use of Control Risks began to be mentioned in the press, noises of disapproval came from Portugal. “You cannot have private detectives intervening in criminal cases,” sniffed Carlos Anjos, head of the Polícia Judiciária’s union. The McCanns resolved to go ahead, motivated by advice Gerry had noted during a research trip to the US earlier that summer. A document issued by the US Justice Department for use by parents of missing children, The Family Survival Guide, recommended considering using private detectives if they could “do something better or different than what is being done by law enforcement”. Given what they saw as the fiasco of the Portuguese police probe, the McCanns nurtured that hope. “I had no experience at all with private detectives,” Kennedy remembered. “But the way you run a business is all about surrounding yourself with people who understand industries that you don’t understand.” He initially hired two former Metropolitan Police detectives, and in late September decided to follow up a rumour that Madeleine might have been sighted in Morocco. Kennedy and the detectives, who flew out aboard his private jet, hired a Moroccan tourist guide to accompany them to the mountain village where it was reported the missing girl might be. She was not there, but the guide – promised a reward – subsequently spoke of having travelled vast distances circulating Madeleine’s picture. “If I find her,” he said, “I will be rich. I have been promised I will never have to work again – maybe a million pounds.” “I suppose,” Kennedy said later “we had been looking for low-hanging fruit. After a few weeks, though, we decided we needed to go about it in a very professional way.” Brian Kennedy had set a potentially useful process in motion. Months earlier, the Portuguese police had produced a poor drawing of the man the McCanns’ friend, Jane Tanner, had seen carrying a child near the holiday apartment in which the McCanns had been staying on the night Madeleine vanished. Now, in England, a British forensic sketch artist took on the job of extracting more and relevant information from Tanner. This fresh image got major media coverage – raising the possibility of new leads. Kennedy then cast around for suitable private investigators to hire, and picked Método 3, a Spanish company. The agency’s claims included having located 23 missing children and teenagers. Given that it was not legitimate for investigators to work for the McCanns in Portugal while the police probe was still under way, it was hoped that Método 3 – with its knowledge of the region and its connections in Spain – might prove effective. It seemed, briefly, that the private detectives could also rebuild bridges with the Portuguese Polícia Judiciária. At the request of the head of Spain’s anti-kidnapping unit, two PJ officers met Método 3 operatives. But the points the private detectives raised did not interest the Portuguese. Método 3 followed up on a vast number of potential openings in the hunt for Madeleine. Nothing tangible resulted, but they made some startling statements that kept the case in the public eye. “We are 100 per cent sure,” their boss, Francisco Marco, told the American network CBS, “that she is alive. We know the kidnapper. We know who he is and how he has done it.” On the BBC’s Panorama programme, he said: “We are very close to finding the kidnappers.” Then, in early December, he announced: “We believe she is in an area not very far from the Iberian peninsula and North Africa. And we have a fairly certain idea who she is with.” No facts emerged, however, to back up these claims. According to The Daily Telegraph, a source close to the McCanns said the couple had begun to think “they might have been sold a pup”. A veteran Spanish police detective was derisive. Método 3 would solve the case, he said, “cuando las ranas crecen los pelos” – “when frogs grow hair”. As the months slipped by, the McCanns made a move they were to regret. A contract was agreed with Oakley International, a US-based company described by a source close to the couple as being apparently “absolutely the best, but extremely secretive”. Oakley was said to employ former FBI, CIA and US Special Forces personnel. It was reportedly agreed that Madeleine’s Fund would pay the company £500,000 under a three-stage contract – with more to come should Madeleine be found alive. The McCanns and Kennedy at first got the impression that Oakley was doing its job. Its investigators appeared to be collating and following up information that came in as a response to the parents’ appeals, and were conducting covert interviews in Portugal. But it later emerged that hundreds of calls to a dedicated hotline were never checked by Oakley. Tapes of interviews conducted in Portugal were said to be useless, involving people irrelevant to the case. Specialists used by Oakley began to find that their bills went unpaid. An undertaking to deliver satellite images of Praia da Luz on the night of May 3, 2007, when Madeleine had disappeared, resulted only in pictures grabbed from Google Earth. With little or no real progress, and as funds continued to haemorrhage, Brian Kennedy called time. Oakley’s boss Kevin Halligen, it turned out, was a fraud. After his involvement in the Madeleine case, Halligen was arrested in the UK in connection with charges relating to a trading company fraud, and extradited to the United States. He was convicted there on the fraud matter, then deported to Europe. “The Oakley episode went sort of sweet and sour,” Kennedy told us. “There were genuine guys breaking their back, trying to make a breakthrough. The lion’s share was spent on the investigation, despite what the newspapers say… [But] it all ended in tears.” It was a major setback, but Kennedy and the McCanns did not give up. On the recommendation of the head of Manchester’s Serious Crime Squad, they went on to hire an experienced former senior police officer, David Edgar. He put in much arduous, systematic work – and held the fort until 2011, when, following an appeal to David Cameron, Scotland Yard began investigating. The dossier the McCanns’ private detectives had gathered was passed to the Yard, and its probe continues today – as Operation Grange.
'Looking For Madeleine’ by Anthony Summers and Robbyn Swan (Headline, £18.99) is available from Telegraph Books for £16.99 + £1.95 p&p (0844 871 1514 or visit books.telegraph.co.uk)
Are you interested in the book...I'M not...do you really think there is anymore information out there?
If there is anymore information out there it will be in the hands of the Met and the PJ. We have been told this will be a long haul and if the situation with the letters of request (to which I think the Portuguese have actually acted as timeously as the system allows, illustrating why a Joint Investigation would be more efficient) and the present turmoil in the Portuguese Justice system are anything to go by, will prove to be correct.
I think the release of a book by respected authors, which must consist of facts already well rehearsed in forums like ours, will be of use to keep the general public informed and allow the pressure to continue for a resolution to exactly what happened to Madeleine McCann as these are the people who are footing the bill and who should be aware of the nuances of her case.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 10, 2014, 01:07:46 PM
You appear to have changed your mind good-sir since the "looks like a good read" of July 26th
That is what is known as expressing an opinion ... because one thinks it may be "a good read" it doesn't follow that one is actually interested in reading it.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 10, 2014, 01:43:58 PM
That is what is known as expressing an opinion ... because one thinks it may be "a good read" it doesn't follow that one is actually interested in reading it.
Pedantically very true but that will limit the reliability of any future comment don't you think For my part I intend to read it despite the criticism of earlier works, all of which criticism it seems may be distilled down to this comment about "Not In Your Lifetime". Summers is an honest researcher who unfortunately is too easily bamboozled by suspect witnesses with "interesting" stories to tell". snip>>>> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/books.htm
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Erngath on September 10, 2014, 02:02:31 PM
Apparently ? In his extensive research why didn't Mr Summers interview the people who gave statements, find out what the orphanage was called and investigate properly if it existed ? Isn't that what an investigative journalist does, follows the clues ?
Chapter 5. Page 59
The authors visited both small communities, and contacted local people who knew the area well. They and the head of a foundation that raises funds for orphanages, have said that no such "orphanage" existed."
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 10, 2014, 02:33:23 PM
The authors visited both small communities, and contacted local people who knew the area well. They and the head of a foundation that raises funds for orphanages, have said that no such "orphanage" existed."
Perhaps this will teach people not to criticise the book for being poorly researched before they actually read it!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Wonderfulspam on September 10, 2014, 02:38:10 PM
One does get the impression that certain people will cling on to anything in the risible hope that Madeleine will magically be found and everything will be hunky-dory.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 10, 2014, 03:01:26 PM
Perhaps this will teach people not to criticise the book for being poorly researched before they actually read it!
Then the authors should be more careful when choosing their words. Their use of the world 'apparently' certainly doesn't convey any absolute knowledge. Besides this sort of scam has been perpetrated on tourists since God was a boy. I'm not sure how it can be linked to Madeleine's alleged abduction.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 10, 2014, 03:15:30 PM
Then the authors should be more careful when choosing their words. Their use of the world 'apparently' certainly doesn't convey any absolute knowledge. Besides this sort of scam has been perpetrated on tourists since God was a boy. I'm not sure how it can be linked to Madeleine's alleged abduction.
Here's a novel idea - why don't you read the book before jumping to conclusions based on a sentence or two taken out of context? Or perhaps you don't plan to read the book as you've already decided it's bound to be a pile of crap (judging from the concerted effort you've already made in trying to discredit it)?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2014, 03:22:41 PM
Here's a novel idea - why don't you read the book before jumping to conclusions based on a sentence or two taken out of context? Or perhaps you don't plan to read the book as you've already decided it's bound to be a pile of crap (judging from the concerted effort you've already made in trying to discredit it)?
Is that rather like you trying to discredit the accidental death theory, or placing forward the abduction theory as the only scenario, with FA evidence.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2014, 04:00:44 PM
Is that rather like you trying to discredit the accidental death theory, or placing forward the abduction theory as the only scenario, with FA evidence.
the question you can never answer is that why do you support the accident theory when there is no evidence for it
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Erngath on September 10, 2014, 04:49:17 PM
Then the authors should be more careful when choosing their words. Their use of the world 'apparently' certainly doesn't convey any absolute knowledge. Besides this sort of scam has been perpetrated on tourists since God was a boy. I'm not sure how it can be linked to Madeleine's alleged abduction.
No, not at all. The word apparent was used before the authors had continued detailing their further investigation by visiting Portugal and speaking to local people. There are four pages of print between the word apparently and no such "orphanage" existed.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 10, 2014, 05:00:36 PM
I hear that a few of the more prominent "sceptics" get the Summers & Swan treatment...looking forward to reading all about them tomorrow!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 10, 2014, 05:29:15 PM
Merciful heavens my dears aren't we becoming a lot of little Divas. Snickers all round I think kiddies. Faithlilly's posts could of course be described as risible were they all her own work so to speak. Posting reviews of Anthony Summers work by his contemporaries and professional critics would put them in a different light. Are we saying that those who reviewed the books and found them lightweight are all "f****ng t****rs". Had Summers previous books not been criticised for recurring similar apparent weaknesses, Pulitzer nomination not with standing (you pays yer money and sends yer book), one would perhaps be less wary. I look forward to seeing threads on here entitled typically "Is Tom Mangold's LinkedIn Profile Accurate". I found this quote from a review of Vincent Bugliosi's book "Reclaiming History". SNIP>>>>>> But his arrogance is of little use in untangling the hopelessly conflicted facts in this 44-year old national tragedy. His incessantly hurling slurs such as "deranged conspiracy theorist," "crackpot," "con man," "kook," and "huckster" at virtually all critics inevitably carries a whiff of buffoonery and anxious self-promotion about it. And that’s particularly the case when he’s flat-out wrong on the facts. SNIP >>>>
Now who does that remind you of folks?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2014, 06:07:25 PM
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Montclair on September 10, 2014, 06:37:49 PM
If Mr. Summers can interview someone who decided, after 15 seconds of watching the McCanns, that they were innocent, why didn't he also interview someone who decided, after seeing them on the first night, that they were hiding something and weren't innocent. It's the least he could do.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 10, 2014, 06:44:18 PM
If Mr. Summers can interview someone who decided, after 15 seconds of watching the McCanns, that they were innocent, why didn't he also interview someone who decided, after seeing them on the first night, that they were hiding something and weren't innocent. It's the least he could do.
How do you know he hasn't? He contacted Pat Brown didn't he?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Eleanor on September 10, 2014, 06:44:34 PM
If Mr. Summers can interview someone who decided, after 15 seconds of watching the McCanns, that they were innocent, why didn't he also interview someone who decided, after seeing them on the first night, that they were hiding something and weren't innocent. It's the least he could do.
Why did Goncalo Amaral never interview or even meet The McCanns before he decided on that first morning that The McCanns were guilty?
Does that make sense to you?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Montclair on September 10, 2014, 08:08:02 PM
How do you know that Gonçalo Amaral decided that they were guilty on the first morning? Has he every said that? No, he hasn't.
Oh yes he has. In his book. Have you not read his book?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2014, 09:11:51 PM
I know there is criticism involving professional jealousy involved in almost every professional publication ...I see it myself regularly on a professional basis...none of the conclusions are of any real importance or do you think they are going to solve the case.. the important thing is what SY think and do...but as I have said the book is a thorn...a massive thorn...in the side of the doubters which it seems includes you. That's why there is so much squealing on the forum
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2014, 09:52:23 PM
just saw this on moraiis site...
Gonçalo Amaral states that there isn't anything else to add to the Madeleine McCann disappearance and, for that same reason, he isn't planning on publishing a second book about the girl's case, even though he has already written it. Despite the fact that the former Judiciary Police inspector still has to face the McCann couple in court, he continues to maintain that the Portuguese police investigation was a job well done and that he would only do one thing differently. He would have had considered Kate and Gerry McCann as suspects on the exact day the child disappeared.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: DCI on September 11, 2014, 12:35:49 AM
Just received this new book on my kindle. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 11, 2014, 07:59:54 AM
As I said before the book was published..it will contain nothing we don't already know and be of no significance..it's theSY investigation that is important
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 11, 2014, 08:07:05 AM
As I said before the book was published..it will contain nothing we don't already know and be of no significance..it's theSY investigation that is important
I agree with the first sentence, and this book is no more than someone else cashing in on Madeleine.
As to the current investigation................................................
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 11, 2014, 08:08:12 AM
just like the rubbish videos you thought were so good
Wrong again dave.
I didn't watch all the videos, and the only one I find pertinent, was the facts behind the made up P.I. agency which was supposed to be independent, had a brief existence and promptly disappeared up it's own rear end.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 11, 2014, 08:22:24 AM
I didn't watch all the videos, and the only one I find pertinent, was the facts behind the made up P.I. agency which was supposed to be independent, had a brief existence and promptly disappeared up it's own rear end.
Unfortunately for the doubters this book will be read widely by those who don't know as much about the case as we do and reinforce the fact in peoples minds that the mccanns are totally innocent...thta's why there is so much squealing from the doubters
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 11, 2014, 08:23:03 AM
Unfortunately for the doubters this book will be read widely by those who don't know as much about the case as we do and reinforce the fact in peoples minds that the mccanns are totally innocent...thta's why there is so much squealing from the doubters
As you say most people don't know anything about the case, a lot also don't give a monkeys.
As to the contents, many will realize it's a rehash of before, and I can't see the sales being that high.
The authors are on Sky News now.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 11, 2014, 08:28:28 AM
Mr. Spotty yet again.
They are not detectives, merely writers, giving their opinion, and of course fundamentally writing the book to make money.
It will be interesting to see whether or not MARTIN GRIME IS MENTIONED IN THE BOOK. &%+((£
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 11, 2014, 08:29:28 AM
I wonder if any other books on the case will be forthcoming which do not accord with the abduction theory, and if so would they be Carter-Rucked ?
Quite simply any book that made a claim that was defamatory to the mccanns that could not be supported by evidence would be libellous...so if someone wants to write abook accusing the mccans of criminal activities with no evidence to support their ideas..it would be libellous
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 11, 2014, 10:06:39 AM
Quite simply any book that made a claim that was defamatory to the mccanns that could not be supported by evidence would be libellous...so if someone wants to write abook accusing the mccans of criminal activities with no evidence to support their ideas..it would be libellous
Yet books are allowed where no evidence of 'abduction' actually exists, other than supposition.
No link has been proved with a paedophile.
No link has been proved to a burglary.
However, it would be interesting to have a book where all theories are examined , and then the reader can make up their own mind.
Do you agree on the latter point dave ?
I know you won't agree on the first two.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 11, 2014, 10:42:23 AM
Yet books are allowed where no evidence of 'abduction' actually exists, other than supposition.
No link has been proved with a paedophile.
No link has been proved to a burglary.
However, it would be interesting to have a book where all theories are examined , and then the reader can make up their own mind.
Do you agree on the latter point dave ?
I know you won't agree on the first two.
I think the main value of the Summers and Swan book will be in redressing the balance between a lot of supposition held as irrefutable and facts which can be backed up with the available evidence.
I doubt if there are any great revelations within its covers; I think if there are any to come that will be the province of the current police investigation of which we don’t know a great deal.
You say that links have not been proved with a paedophile abductor nor with burglary.
That nothing was proved in any way was surely a reflection on the course pursued by the initial investigation.
For example, can you give me a link to any reference to a burglar or attempted burglary in the PJ files?
I’m not going to ask for a link to the home invasions in which the children of British holidaymakers were targeted by a sexual deviant … because I know there isn’t one.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 11, 2014, 10:51:45 AM
It is obvious that the supporters see the fact that the authors of this book exonerate' the McCanns of guilt as some kind of victory against sceptics, it isn't.
The book simply does what just about every newspaper article since the McCanns sued the Express has tried to do which is to try to tie up unconnected events to form a believable narrative. Unfortunately the pudding has seriously been over-egged ( over 25,000 sceptical members in one Facebook group proves this ).
If the authors think that readers will not realise that the book is merely some very, very old tabloid cold cuts heated up to make ( Summers/Swann hope ) a tasty meal they are sadly mistaken.
While the McCanns have enough money in the fund to engage CR there will never be a truly objective book on this case but on the plus side even if there is a thousand books written which attempts to strip the McCanns of guilt, the taint will remain. They may metaphorically wash the McCann's hands a thousand times but like two latter day Lady Macbeth's the spot will still remain, and rightly so.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 11, 2014, 12:11:23 PM
Authors on sky news and you don't think it will sell well...poor judgement...you will be proved wrong
That is hardly surprising if you read the authors Acknowledgements section of the book. Snip>>>>> "Researcher Marta Simons rose to the Challenge in Portugal eventually juggling both our demands and those of Sky News" Snip>>>>> Martin Brunt Sky News excellent crime reporter lent an ear and gave advice" Snip>>>> "Sky's weather forecaster Jo Wheeler ....... Snip>>>> Not that there were not other acknowledgements of course the BBC included but with the acknowledgements quoted it would be a surprise were the authors not on Sky.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 11, 2014, 12:13:49 PM
That is hardly surprising if you read the authors Acknowledgements section of the book. Snip>>>>> "Researcher Marta Simons rose to the Challenge in Portugal eventually juggling both our demands and those of Sky News" Snip>>>>> Martin Brunt Sky News excellent crime reporter lent an ear and gave advice" Snip>>>> "Sky's weather forecaster Jo Wheeler ....... Snip>>>> Not that there were not other acknowledgements of course the BBC included but with the acknowledgements quoted it would be a surprise were the authors not on Sky.
Another trying to discredit the book...it supports the mccanns and taht's what you and others can't stand. Stephen thinks it won't sell well...I think he will be proved wrong
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 11, 2014, 12:30:59 PM
Another trying to discredit the book...it supports the mccanns and taht's what you and others can't stand. Stephen thinks it won't sell well...I think he will be proved wrong
Gosh you are in a lather.
I am merely quoting from the books acknowledgements section. Prove to the forum that the quotations and their source is incorrect if you can. There is an interesting "Authors Note" which I am sure one of "The Posh Street Kids" will provide you with. Otherwise you will, with your inimitable puddled thinking, suggest I am knocking the book merely by quoting what is in it. The book as far as I have read it does not overtly support the McCanns and again as far as I have read it, which I freely admit is only up to chapter 4, is anecdotal.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 11, 2014, 12:33:53 PM
I am merely quoting from the books acknowledgements section. Prove to the forum that the quotations and their source is incorrect if you can. There is an interesting "Authors Note" which I am sure one of "The Posh Street Kids" will provide you with. Otherwise you will, with your inimitable puddled thinking, suggest I am knocking the book merely by quoting what is in it. The book as far as I have read it does not overtly support the McCanns and again as far as I have read it, which I freely admit is only up to chapter 4, is anecdotal.
It supports the mccanns non criminal involvement...tahts pretty overt
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 11, 2014, 12:41:55 PM
I think the main value of the Summers and Swan book will be in redressing the balance between a lot of supposition held as irrefutable and facts which can be backed up with the available evidence.
I doubt if there are any great revelations within its covers; I think if there are any to come that will be the province of the current police investigation of which we don’t know a great deal.
You say that links have not been proved with a paedophile abductor nor with burglary.
That nothing was proved in any way was surely a reflection on the course pursued by the initial investigation.
For example, can you give me a link to any reference to a burglar or attempted burglary in the PJ files?
I’m not going to ask for a link to the home invasions in which the children of British holidaymakers were targeted by a sexual deviant … because I know there isn’t one.
The only 'book' which would be equatable, would be where all the scenarios are examined.
What I have been told of this book so far, it fails to do that.
A brief reminder brietta, the PJ found no evidence of abduction because there was none to find.
You and people like you are absolutely desperate to whitewash the mccanns, and try and link paedophiles and burglaries to Madeleine's disappearance, where no link has been established.
That though is no surprise.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 11, 2014, 02:18:56 PM
The only 'book' which would be equatable, would be where all the scenarios are examined.
What I have been told of this book so far, it fails to do that.
A brief reminder brietta, the PJ found no evidence of abduction because there was none to find.
You and people like you are absolutely desperate to whitewash the mccanns, and try and link paedophiles and burglaries to Madeleine's disappearance, where no link has been established.
That though is no surprise.
I don’t have a copy of the book as yet so may be whistling in the wind when I say that it would surprise me greatly were there to be no analysis of other theories into what may or may not have occurred on the 3rd May.
May I be so bold as to remind you of the total mess made of the all important initial traces recovered by the Portuguese forensics team. If the abductor had left any clue to his/her presence whatsoever it would have been obliterated by incompetent gathering of the evidence in the very first hours of the inquiry.
Later on in the investigation evidence which did not point to Madeleine’s parents was ignored; so if no-one was interested in seeking the perpetrator it was highly unlikely one would be found.
I hold no brief for the Drs McCann and it is rather telling that the claim that one does is so prevalent when used to discredit rational conclusions.
Had there been evidence to suggest their involvement in whatever happened to Madeleine I would have taken note insofar as allowing the law to run its course, not to join a witch hunt of the most reprehensible type possible.
Initially the PJ did investigate paedophiles and with the help of the Brits those who were ex pats; so the link was made by two professional law enforcement organisations, not me.
I find it risible to suggest that a sexual predator who assaulted children in their beds is not worthy of consideration just as I find it incredible that burglars – who are not nice cuddly guys but criminals, some of whom are very violent persons indeed - should be ignored.
We are a wee bit more street wise now than we were in more innocent times when criminality involving drugs and addicts was less well understood; making it all the more incredible there are still those who choose to demonise people without criminal records and ignore real criminals who have thus been out of the picture for over seven years.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ferryman on September 11, 2014, 04:26:15 PM
As the nature of the crime has yet to be ascertained,MANTRA TIME , you cannot rule out accidental death.
Why was Santos keen to protect Madeleine lest she be alive?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 11, 2014, 04:55:47 PM
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 11, 2014, 07:18:05 PM
3 reviews so far..as I predicted the reviews will be far more interesting than the book
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 11, 2014, 08:48:46 PM
Authors Summers and Swan reply to critics of their book about Madeleine
The best-selling authors Anthony Summers and Robbyn Swan have responded to criticisms that their new book Looking for Madeleine, published today (September 11), amounts to a pro-McCann ‘whitewash’ rather than the first in-depth, independent and objective analysis of the disappearance and search for the little girl. The criticisms come from people who reject the theory that Madeleine McCann was abducted.
In their first interview with the media in Portugal, the authors told me they had in the past tackled controversial subjects, “but never have we encountered this degree of intense reaction to a book even before it has been published. It underlines, we think, why authors who do our kind of intensive investigative work needed to tackle this story.”
How, I asked, did they decide on this subject in the first place?
“In May 2012, readers may recall, the UK’s Scotland Yard released an age progression image of Madeleine as she might have looked if still alive. Robbyn was watching the news with our own young daughter, who is a little older than Madeleine McCann, and whose middle name happens also to be Madeleine.
“Her interest was piqued by hearing her own name, and she asked: ‘What really happened to that little girl? Do her parents really believe she is still alive?’
“And – this really got us: ‘How long would you look for me, Mummy?’ Robbyn realised she didn’t have good answers, and we started tentatively digging. We starting a first scan of the massive police dossier, read Kate McCann’s published account - and took on board the voluminous criticism and analysis of the case, and of the McCanns themselves, that was available online.
“We soon realised as we talked to people from all walks of life that many, many people seemed to suspect there was something wrong with the parents’ account and – and we started to think we could bring something to this almost unique story by drilling down to the best evidence. Our publisher agreed. That’s how it started, and here we are more than two years later.”
The authors are adamant they have not been influenced at any stage or in any way by the McCann family or anyone close to the investigation. “As you will see in the Notes section of Looking for Madeleine, we felt at the outset that it was only right to advise Madeleine’s parents and London’s Metropolitan police that we planned to investigate with a view to a book.
“We had a single meeting with the McCanns and one with the Met – both of them early in our research. The parents, and then the police, made only one request of us – a fair one given the parents’ hope and the Met’s working thesis that Madeleine may still be alive – that we do nothing that might hinder or interfere with the ongoing investigation. We have been careful to abide by that request.”
How much cooperation did they get from Kate and Gerry McCann during their research and writing?
“We have been totally independent of the McCanns – and we emphasise this, given the torrent of internet innuendo to the contrary even before Looking for Madeleine was published.
“An initial meeting aside, a meeting at which Madeleine’s parents made no attempt at all to influence our thinking, there was no cooperation. The parents believed we should work independently of them, and we would not have wanted it otherwise.”
Since the couple began working on the book, both the Portuguese Polícia Judiciária and the Metropolitan Police Service have moved from ‘reviewing’ to renewed investigation and so they have had no more information from either force than was “ethically correct.”
However, they said they have had senior contacts with former senior law enforcement officers in both countries and these have served as a valuable guide to the early investigation, and to some degree to what has been going on more recently.
The authors said that before they started their research they had no opinion on whether Madeleine had been abducted or not. And after two years of non-stop work, they have an opinion but not a definitive one.
“We were open - and still are - to anywhere the evidence might lead us. When Madeleine vanished we were deep into the research for our previous book, on the September 11 attacks. That also involved reading many tens of thousands of documents, travel, etc. So, like millions of others, we only had the blurred impression gained from the welter of media coverage and the torrent of rumour. It is only now after looking at every angle that we can justify expressing an opinion. We do that in Looking for Madeleine.”
Anthony Summers and his wife Robbyn Swan think the most likely scenario is that Madeleine was indeed abducted. There is a “cogent skein of evidence” pointing to the notion that she was a carefully selected target, very possibly of a p.a.e.dophile.”
Does the book contain any real revelations? In other words have Summers and Swan uncovered any previously unknown facts that bring us closer to understanding what really happened to Madeleine?
“Looking for Madeleine is shot through with new information and analysis. In particular, we obtained information not seen publicly before that throws vivid new light on the activity and modus operandi of the intruder who perpetrated at least one of the child s.e.x attacks in the period preceding Madeleine’s disappearance.
“As important, we obtained detailed information on an incident in Praia da Luz that may suggest one of the phoney “charity collectors” may have had a sexual motive. This episode, in particular, coupled with analysis of the overall jigsaw of testimony, contributes to a new understanding of a possible abduction scenario.
“Another key element is the first ever in-depth interview with Brian Kennedy, the wealthy benefactor who throws light on the McCann’s private investigation effort. And much, much more.”
As to the serious doubts about independence and objectivity expressed before the book’s publication, especially by critics who totally reject the abduction theory, the authors responded: “The notion of criticising authors about a book even before it has been published may speak volumes about the biases of those levelling the criticisms
Would you care to share with us the page number where that is stated categorically?
p. 261: "All the accumulated evidence indicates that Madeleine was abducted"
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 11, 2014, 11:33:14 PM
Summers cites as a reference Danny Collins book Vanished, a book in which Mr Collins waxes lyrical about the quiz mistress joining the tapas group on Thursday night and claims the McCanns were in Portugal for two weeks.
Enough said.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 11, 2014, 11:46:13 PM
Want to read it, but am not sure that I am able to at the moment. Too much real life stuff going on.
I went to the bookshop for mine, Sadie, good excuse to have a browse. I've only had time to read the foreword, the sources and acknowledgements and had a quick look at the photos.
The temptation is to begin by cherry picking ... but I'm not going to do that.
I'll make time and start it tomorrow.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2014, 07:26:39 AM
As the nature of the crime has yet to be ascertained,MANTRA TIME , you cannot rule out accidental death.
Why was Santos keen to protect Madeleine lest she be alive?
So ferryman, how does Madeleine's disappearance stand legally in Portugal ?
The UK of course is irrelevant.
and if you think she is alive ferryman, where is she ?
Mind you ,with your history of rampant illogic I'm not expecting a logical answer.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2014, 07:36:30 AM
I don't think there will be anything new at all in the book for those who have followed the case online. it seems extremely supportive of the McCanns which is fantastic. The book already seems to be driving the doubters crazy...Tony Bennetts having a fit...absolutely hilarious
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2014, 08:02:12 AM
I don't think there will be anything new at all in the book for those who have followed the case online. it seems extremely supportive of the McCanns which is fantastic. The book already seems to be driving the doubters crazy...Tony Bennetts having a fit...absolutely hilarious
[moderated]
As to driving 'doubters' crazy ?
Nah.
Just laughing at it.
The general impression given, it is written by a 4 year old on a bad day. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2014, 08:09:52 AM
The general impression given, it is written by a 4 year old on a bad day. 8((()*/
This is what I am talking about...your reaction...it will be quite entertaining to read comments such as yours trying desperately to discredit the book...the book itself is quite accurate
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2014, 08:14:53 AM
This is what I am talking about...your reaction...it will be quite entertaining to read comments such as yours trying desperately to discredit the book...the book itself is quite accurate
Ho do you if it is accurate, if you haven't read it ?
That makes no sense.
Likewise, the book isn't going to solve Madeleine's disappearance.
It's just a money making exercise.
Have you read any of the author's other books ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 12, 2014, 08:19:59 AM
I don't think there will be anything new at all in the book for those who have followed the case online. it seems extremely supportive of the McCanns which is fantastic. The book already seems to be driving the doubters crazy...Tony Bennetts having a fit...absolutely hilarious
He describes it as a wicked book. I guess that puts it in the same league as Mein Kampf then, or maybe it's even more wicked than that!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 12, 2014, 08:23:22 AM
Come, come there's no need to be coy Alfred. Either Summers didn't approach the McCanns which would raise questions about his proficiency as a journalist and thus the quality of his research or he did and the McCanns refused. Those are the only options.
Seems you got this wrong didn't you Faithlilly? That's because you didn't have all the facts at your disposal when you drew your (ill-informed) conclusions. This is a great example of how you "sceptics" operate.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Benice on September 12, 2014, 09:00:19 AM
Seems you got this wrong didn't you Faithlilly? That's because you didn't have all the facts at your disposal when you drew your (ill-informed) conclusions. This is a great example of how you "sceptics" operate.
Sorry Alfred I shall rephrase. Summers met the McCanns once but they had no input into the book so my contention remains largely correct.
Of course if you're splitting hairs...........!!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2014, 10:06:31 AM
I thought they claimed never to have met the mccanns. &%+((£
I believe in the book the authors claim to gave met the McCanns once but that they had no input into the book.
TBH I'm not too sure who this book is aimed at. It's not a true crime book per se and anyone who is interested in the case already knows most of the information. It will be interesting to see how many 'neutral' reviews are posted on Amazon.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 12, 2014, 01:09:08 PM
Merciful heavens children. Shall we now all own up who has and who has not read* the book? That includes you Alfred. I can't believe you have me on ignore all this time without taking a surreptitious peep. That would not be like you at all. It is rather amusing to sit back and watch the fight over what is essentially a story book.
It is difficult to work out whether one is reading a piece of serious investigative journalism that didn't work out too well or a novel. Almost a whole chapter on forum and internet nutters is over egging the pudding or perhaps over padding the novel. At the risk of being branded all sorts of things the book seems to follow the same MO as their other definitive works if the professional reviewers of their other works are to be believed. Chapter 17 is worthy of a read as it deals with Metodo3 among other things and does shed some light in that particular corner. *read in this context means read the book from start to finish not odd bits in the daily rags.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 12, 2014, 01:52:27 PM
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 12, 2014, 01:55:34 PM
Sorry Alfred I shall rephrase. Summers met the McCanns once but they had no input into the book so my contention remains largely correct.
Of course if you're splitting hairs...........!!
Not really - you tried to make out that if Summers hadn't contacted the McCanns then that showed him up as being a crap researcher, and that if the McCanns had refused him an interview that that didn't cover them in glory either. In actual fact, as we now know Summers had a meeting with the McCanns during which they explained that they didn't want to contribute to a book that may cause problems with the PJ or the current investigation which is a perfectly reasonable decision. Not to you, of course, you can probably still think of some spurious reason to criticise Summers and / or Swan for it.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2014, 05:54:29 PM
Ho do you if it is accurate, if you haven't read it ?
That makes no sense.
Likewise, the book isn't going to solve Madeleine's disappearance.
It's just a money making exercise.
Have you read any of the author's other books ?
I don't need to read the book to know it's quite accurate...there are reviews and summaries posted all over the net..
the description...There MUST be a fight-back against this wicked book...by a leading doubter....it really is hilarious. As I have said the reviews will be more interesting to me than the book but of course not everybody is as familiar with the case as we are
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2014, 05:57:16 PM
An interesting point is that most of the reviews are by people insulted by the author...the [ censored word ]s...will Amazon be able to let these [ censored word ]s run riot unchecked...what will they do
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 12, 2014, 06:55:35 PM
An interesting point is that most of the reviews are by people insulted by the author...the [ censored word ]...will Amazon be able to let these [ censored word ] run riot unchecked...what will they do
Run Riot and Unchecked hivvings above ! I declare.
AMAZON is a business, they have people who believe in various theories about the Tragedy that is Little missing Maddie, and the writing efforts by the 'Authors'- Booker prize? They will not be in the business of offering free speech to some and not others- they may close the reviews thread if is becomes unpleasant.
Yes- Free speech, oh how the McCanns and Co hate that.
I won't buy or read the book, as this is just another 'pig with nose in trough'- little Maddie being used as a cash cow by someone who is not what he claims.
Sky news on the door step within hours of Maddie disappearing- Sun newspapers serializing and keeping the story going...oh loads a cash... stay missing maddie!!!! if you are found part of their world will fall apart.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2014, 07:24:31 PM
Run Riot and Unchecked hivvings above ! I declare.
AMAZON is a business, they have people who believe in various theories about the Tragedy that is Little missing Maddie, and the writing efforts by the 'Authors'- Booker prize? They will not be in the business of offering free speech to some and not others- they may close the reviews thread if is becomes unpleasant.
Yes- Free speech, oh how the McCanns and Co hate that.
I won't buy or read the book, as this is just another 'pig with nose in trough'- little Maddie being used as a cash cow by someone who is not what he claims.
Sky news on the door step within hours of Maddie disappearing- Sun newspapers serializing and keeping the story going...oh loads a cash... stay missing maddie!!!! if you are found part of their world will fall apart.
it will be interesting to see if they have to close comments..Have they ever had to do this before...nothing wrong with free speech it's libel that isn't allowed
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 12, 2014, 07:32:02 PM
I don't need to read the book to know it's quite accurate...there are reviews and summaries posted all over the net..
the description...There MUST be a fight-back against this wicked book...by a leading doubter....it really is hilarious. As I have said the reviews will be more interesting to me than the book but of course not everybody is as familiar with the case as we are
Michael Wright said something similar about another book. Are you sure you are not he? The judge almost laughed at poor old Michael. @)(++(* @)(++(* *&*%£
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2014, 08:05:14 PM
I don't need to read the book to know it's quite accurate...there are reviews and summaries posted all over the net..
the description...There MUST be a fight-back against this wicked book...by a leading doubter....it really is hilarious. As I have said the reviews will be more interesting to me than the book but of course not everybody is as familiar with the case as we are
i.e. The book is a load of rehashed bollocks going nowhere, and adding nothing to the case, except lining the pockets of two pretend investigators.
%£&)**# %£&)**# %£&)**#
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2014, 08:26:06 PM
Michael Wright said something similar about another book. Are you sure you are not he? The judge almost laughed at poor old Michael. @)(++(* @)(++(* *&*%£
If I had made this comment to a judge then your comment may have some relevance...as I didn't...it doesn't
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2014, 08:30:35 PM
i.e. The book is a load of rehashed bollocks going nowhere, and adding nothing to the case, except lining the pockets of two pretend investigators.
%£&)**# %£&)**# %£&)**#
I agree there's nothing new..in fact I predicted it whereas you had to read the book first to understand...unless of course you are making that comment without having read the book...what would Judge Alice say about that...
I thought being an author was a paid profession and that's why books are written...or are you suggesting all those wealthy authors are a figment of my imagination
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 12, 2014, 08:34:20 PM
If I had made this comment to a judge then your comment may have some relevance...as I didn't...it doesn't
The point was the "smilies" ie I am laughing at you like the judge laughed at Michael for being so daft as to pretend you are conversant with the contents of a book and its veracity without having read it.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2014, 08:35:53 PM
Thank you for removing my post Eleanor- wow you are fast with the none brown nosers- not biased at all. Davel has no evidence that 'people like me' get forums closed down. Losing it huh... Mwahahahahahahahaha
You allow his insults but ignore others!!
Now now children who may be watching....
never said people like you get forums closed down...but as I did say...I wonder how amazon are going to cope with comments such as the ones made in your post.. I think it's a very interesting point...I certainly would not like to see comments closed..
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2014, 08:36:32 PM
The point was the "smilies" ie I am laughing at you like the judge laughed at Michael for being so daft as to pretend you are conversant with the contents of a book and its veracity without having read it.
I am afraid you are beyond laughter with your vain attempts to score points against me...have you learnt nothing from your previous incarnations...certainly no enlightenment for you...I am pretty conversant with the contents of many books without having read them...my son laughs that he gained a grade A at eng lit without having read the book...what would the judge say
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2014, 08:39:46 PM
I agree there's nothing new..in fact I predicted it whereas you had to read the book first to understand...unless of course you are making that comment without having read the book...what would Judge Alice say about that...
I thought being an author was a paid profession and that's why books are written...or are you suggesting all those wealthy authors are a figment of my imagination
Authors such as:
Lord Jeffrey Archer.
Derek Acorah.
Katie Price.
et al.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2014, 08:43:45 PM
no because although you criticise the authors of this book for being commercial...that's what most authors are. Just remembered a book by Steve somebody, called faked abduction...that made b....r all
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2014, 08:55:35 PM
no because although you criticise the authors of this book for being commercial...that's what most authors are. Just remembered a book by Steve somebody, called faked abduction...that made b....r all
So you agree.
This book adds nothing new to the case.
It is a case of two people cashing in on Madeleine's name to make money.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 12, 2014, 09:00:54 PM
Not really - you tried to make out that if Summers hadn't contacted the McCanns then that showed him up as being a crap researcher, and that if the McCanns had refused him an interview that that didn't cover them in glory either. In actual fact, as we now know Summers had a meeting with the McCanns during which they explained that they didn't want to contribute to a book that may cause problems with the PJ or the current investigation which is a perfectly reasonable decision. Not to you, of course, you can probably still think of some spurious reason to criticise Summers and / or Swan for it.
I said Summers hadn't interviewed the McCanns and I was right.
Anyway not to worry Alfred it seems Mr Summers book is not the roaring success both you and he expected it to be. There's far too much information on the internet about this case for the public to be fooled by his badly researched twaddle and it seems that they are voting with their wallets on this one.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2014, 09:02:42 PM
It is a case of two people cashing in on Madeleine's name to make money.
I said before the book was released it would add nothing new...remember...
Your statement re cashing in is a rather biased view...as usual....Amaral did the same...all the papers have done the same...simply responding to the market..if people want to read it they will make money...if they don't..they won't
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2014, 09:04:19 PM
I said Summers hadn't interviewed the McCanns and I was right.
Anyway not to worry Alfred it seems Mr Summers book is not the roaring success both you and he expected it to be. There's far too much information on the internet about this case for the public to be fooled by his badly researched twaddle and it seems that they are voting with their wallets on this one.
I think similar things were said about Kates book before it became a best seller
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 12, 2014, 09:07:34 PM
I said before the book was released it would add nothing new...remember...
Your statement re cashing in is a rather biased view...as usual....Amaral did the same...all the papers have done the same...simply responding to the market..if people want to read it they will make money...if they don't..they won't
So what.
I and other people said exactly the same.
So what's your point ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2014, 09:21:11 PM
I said Summers hadn't interviewed the McCanns and I was right.
Anyway not to worry Alfred it seems Mr Summers book is not the roaring success both you and he expected it to be. There's far too much information on the internet about this case for the public to be fooled by his badly researched twaddle and it seems that they are voting with their wallets on this one.
Perhaps you could refer me to the post in which I claimed the book was going to be a roaring success or are you just making shit up again? How you can decide that a book is a flop based on one day's sales beats me - another gross assumption on your part methinks!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 12, 2014, 09:50:01 PM
Perhaps you could refer me to the post in which I claimed the book was going to be a roaring success or are you just making shit up again? How you can decide that a book is a flop based on one day's sales beats me - another gross assumption on your part methinks!
You're getting tetchy again Alfred. Is it time to go up the wooden hill to Bedfordshire ?
Talking about feeling sleepy it seems to Summers, like Amaral, is under the misapprehension that Capol brings on sleep. So much for his much-lauded in-depth research !
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2014, 09:56:12 PM
You're getting tetchy again Alfred. Is it time to go up the wooden hill to Bedfordshire ?
Talking about feeling sleepy it seems to Summers, like Amaral, is under the misapprehension that Capol brings on sleep. So much for his much-lauded in-depth research !
I would be surprised if you are right about the calpol
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 12, 2014, 10:14:46 PM
You're getting tetchy again Alfred. Is it time to go up the wooden hill to Bedfordshire ?
Talking about feeling sleepy it seems to Summers, like Amaral, is under the misapprehension that Capol brings on sleep. So much for his much-lauded in-depth research !
it's rather amusing how you always resort to a snide goad when unable to answer a question or provide evidence for your claims. As for your second point, yes S & S have clearly given too much credence to Goncalo and hs fanclub's misinformation campaign regarding Calpol. I'm sure there will be revisions in the paperback edition, so don't worry your spiteful little head about it.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 12, 2014, 10:23:37 PM
it's rather amusing how you always resort to a snide goad when unable to answer a question or provide evidence for your claims. As for your second point, yes S & S have clearly given too much credence to Goncalo and hs fanclub's misinformation campaign regarding Calpol. I'm sure there will be revisions in the paperback edition, so don't worry your spiteful little head about it.
But surely if Mr Summers had researched this book as you and others have claimed he wouldn't have to change anything. After all it doesn't take a investigative journalist to find out Calpol has no sedative properties. Google and a free digit would do it.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2014, 10:26:43 PM
But surely if Mr Summers had researched this book as you and others have claimed he wouldn't have to change anything. After all it doesn't take a investigative journalist to find out Calpol has no sedative properties. Google and a free digit would do it.
could you copy and paste a quote confirming this
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 12, 2014, 10:28:38 PM
But surely if Mr Summers had researched this book as you and others have claimed he wouldn't have to change anything. After all it doesn't take a investigative journalist to find out Calpol has no sedative properties. Google and a free digit would do it.
I have made no claims about the thoroughness or otherwise of Summers and Swan's reasearch - yet another incorrect assumption from you. I have simply commented on your harsh criticism of a book that you hadn't even read yet. It is not uncommon for even the best researched book to contain some errors which are subsequently corrected in later editions, perhaps you were unaware of this.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: a.baker on September 13, 2014, 10:02:06 AM
I am currently reading the book and I have a question. Book states that Gerry left for his check at 9.05pm, just after Mat arrived back at the restaurant telling him all was quiet at 5A. Taking into consideration the timing of the walks to and from 5A,the time GM would have spent in the apartment,and the chat with Jez,what time would he have logically/likely have arrived back at the restaurant?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: a.baker on September 13, 2014, 10:46:23 AM
Anyone??
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 13, 2014, 11:58:57 AM
Some fell on stony ground others among the tares. Well about a minute to walk to the flat (although Kate says somewhere it is only 30 seconds) and a minute back, about three to five minutes talking to Jez (Jez's rog. statement) and how long do you want to look around? 30 seconds is enough say a minute. So we have 1+1+3+1 = 6. or 1+1+5+1 = 8. Or knock off a minute on each if it really does take only 30 seconds a la Kate then use 30 seconds look see time for the minimum number. So minimum 4 1/2 minutes and maximum 8 minutes as reasonable limits. Over to you! Have you come to the bit where the Aussie woman with the big yacht in Barcelona is being described as "remaining a person of interest to the inquiry". Whose/which inquiry is not defined however.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: a.baker on September 13, 2014, 02:40:48 PM
Thank you Alice. I allowed one minute there and the same back. Three minutes in apt for GM to use toilet and have his fatherly moment gazing at Madeleine and the three? minutes speaking with Jez. So roughly 8 minutes which would have seen him sit back down at table around 9.13 at the earliest? I don't understand why Kate would then stand up around 12 minutes later at 9.25 ready to go and carry out a check (the one that MO did instead)? And with all the two-ing and fro-ing from the tapas group between 9 and 9.30, I really don't see how Madeleine could have been 'taken' unnoticed during this time.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: a.baker on September 13, 2014, 06:38:25 PM
Perhaps not! According to the Tapas groups timeline,GM was witnessed by JT talking to Jez at 9.15pm. So,pretty much as soon as he returns to the restaurant,Kate stands up ready to do a check? Bizarre!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 13, 2014, 06:59:45 PM
Just had a look at the book in waterstones. It is highly critical of amaral, pat brown, Bennett..stevo etc. It is extremely supportive of the mccanns . It points out where amaral misinterprets the evidence. I don't see how anyone can ignore such an established journalist...he really puts the doubters in their place.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 13, 2014, 07:02:35 PM
Perhaps not! According to the Tapas groups timeline,GM was witnessed by JT talking to Jez at 9.15pm. So,pretty much as soon as he returns to the restaurant,Kate stands up ready to do a check? Bizarre!
I find it bizarre that you would find it bizarre- most people who have it in for the McCanns say they could never have left their children unattended yet find it odd that parents who did leave them unattended would do very frequent checks on them...? Why's that then??
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: a.baker on September 13, 2014, 07:18:02 PM
Erm,where do I actually say I have it in for the Mccanns as you put it? I am actually neither for or against them. I don't really have a theory as to what happened to Madeleine but I can see for myself that there doesn't appear to be evidence of any 'abduction'. Why would the group check roughly hourly on every other night of the holiday,and yet checks were taking place by the Mcann's by way of one going to check as soon as the other had arrived back,on the night that Madeleine went missing? Why was that evening different to all the others re the checks?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 13, 2014, 07:24:12 PM
Just had a look at the book in waterstones. It is highly critical of amaral, pat brown, Bennett..stevo etc. It is extremely supportive of the mccanns . It points out where amaral misinterprets the evidence. I don't see how anyone can ignore such an established journalist...he really puts the doubters in their place.
These two are nothing more than two writers giving their opinions.
Thy will not solve the case.
We already know Amaral misinterpreted the forensics,old news They were inconclusive.
Didn't you read what Eleanor said davel, we are not supposed to mention Bennett, or is that subject to which side of the fence you abide in ?
As to Pat Brown, why is she of less regard than this pair, who after all are only making money from Madeleine ?
have they asked why the mccanns and associates changed their stories, updating them to the circumstances.
Do they explain the dogs reactions ?
Do they explain why dogs were used in Portugal recently in the investigation ?
Do they explain why after 7 plus years, no trace of Madeleine has been found ?
Do they analyze quantitatively all other possible scenarios as to Madeleine's disappearance ?
or didn't they do that, because it might involve libel ? %£&)**# %£&)**# %£&)**#
Clearly, a thorough and professional investigation would do that, and that yet again hasn't happened.
In the end , it's just two more amateurs giving their one sided view of the case, and as before has come no closer to solving it.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Montclair on September 13, 2014, 07:28:37 PM
Just had a look at the book in waterstones. It is highly critical of amaral, pat brown, Bennett..stevo etc. It is extremely supportive of the mccanns . It points out where amaral misinterprets the evidence. I don't see how anyone can ignore such an established journalist...he really puts the doubters in their place.
If this great investigative journalist managed to find the evidence and arguments to show that the McCanns were in no way involved in Madeleine's disappearance, why hasn't he presented them? There is absolutely nothing in the book which would make anyone change their mind about the inconsistencies in the statements of the parents, the lies, their strange behaviour. Nothing he writes about the findings made by the dogs would make me change my mind either. Nothing new at all.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: DCI on September 13, 2014, 07:32:18 PM
I am currently reading the book and I have a question. Book states that Gerry left for his check at 9.05pm, just after Mat arrived back at the restaurant telling him all was quiet at 5A. Taking into consideration the timing of the walks to and from 5A,the time GM would have spent in the apartment,and the chat with Jez,what time would he have logically/likely have arrived back at the restaurant?
But Matt hadn't arrived back at the restaurant, according to Rachel he spoke to Gerry on the way back from his listening at the windows check.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 13, 2014, 07:39:47 PM
These two are nothing more than two writers giving their opinions.
Thy will not solve the case.
We already know Amaral misinterpreted the forensics,old news They were inconclusive.
Didn't you read what Eleanor said davel, we are not supposed to mention Bennett, or is that subject to which side of the fence you abide in ?
As to Pat Brown, why is she of less regard than this pair, who after all are only making money from Madeleine ?
have they asked why the mccanns and associates changed their stories, updating them to the circumstances.
Do they explain the dogs reactions ?
Do they explain why dogs were used in Portugal recently in the investigation ?
Do they explain why after 7 plus years, no trace of Madeleine has been found ?
Do they analyze quantitatively all other possible scenarios as to Madeleine's disappearance ?
or didn't they do that, because it might involve libel ? %£&)**# %£&)**# %£&)**#
Clearly, a thorough and professional investigation would do that, and that yet again hasn't happened.
In the end , it's just two more amateurs giving their one sided view of the case, and as before has come no closer to solving it.
they are far from amateurs...everything you have stated has already been shown to be of no significance...glad to see you admit that amaral misunderstood the forensics...what a poor policeman he was
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 13, 2014, 07:42:11 PM
If this great investigative journalist managed to find the evidence and arguments to show that the McCanns were in no way involved in Madeleine's disappearance, why hasn't he presented them? There is absolutely nothing in the book which would make anyone change their mind about the inconsistencies in the statements of the parents, the lies, their strange behaviour. Nothing he writes about the findings made by the dogs would make me change my mind either. Nothing new at all.
You have got things back to front as usual..no one has to find evidence to clear the mccanns its the other way round...signs of living in a fascist state..nothing will make you or others change your mind because you simply don't understand the evidence..as amaral didn't
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 13, 2014, 07:45:15 PM
they are far from amateurs...everything you have stated has already been shown to be of no significance...glad to see you admit that amaral misunderstood the forensics...what a poor policeman he was
it would be very easy to write a truthful book that highlighted all the evidence against the mccanns...that would not be libellous as long as it was truthful...the problem is that most of the things you believe just are not true
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 13, 2014, 07:47:08 PM
they are far from amateurs...everything you have stated has already been shown to be of no significance...glad to see you admit that amaral misunderstood the forensics...what a poor policeman he was
No davel, IT IS SIGNIFICANT.
These two writers are amateur detectives and have found nothing new.
As I said COMPETENT INVESTIGATORS examine all scenarios thoroughly.
THEY HAVEN'T.
As to Amaral, just to remind you, Madeleine's disappearance, is unsolved, as is the type of crime.
REMEMBER THAT.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 13, 2014, 07:50:00 PM
it would be very easy to write a truthful book that highlighted all the evidence against the mccanns...that would not be libellous as long as it was truthful...the problem is that most of the things you believe just are not true
No davel.
You do not know the mccanns told the truth
it has already been established they have told lies, and their accounts are inconsistent, and have changed.
As to what I believe, you can only see what I have typed, no more.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 13, 2014, 07:59:15 PM
Erm,where do I actually say I have it in for the Mccanns as you put it? I am actually neither for or against them. I don't really have a theory as to what happened to Madeleine but I can see for myself that there doesn't appear to be evidence of any 'abduction'. Why would the group check roughly hourly on every other night of the holiday,and yet checks were taking place by the Mcann's by way of one going to check as soon as the other had arrived back,on the night that Madeleine went missing? Why was that evening different to all the others re the checks?
Erm, where do I say you have it in for the McCanns? Maybe the McCanns increased the frequency of their checks because of Madeleine's comments about crying when they weren't there? Crazy idea I know...
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 13, 2014, 08:03:22 PM
But Matt hadn't arrived back at the restaurant, according to Rachel he spoke to Gerry on the way back from his listening at the windows check.
BOOK Chapter 1 This is wnat Summers thinks happened. Snip>>>>> Just before 9.00 that Thursday evening, on his way back to the restaurant after a check on his own child, Matt Oldfield paused for a moment outside the window of the McCann apartment, “had a listen” and told Gerry minutes later that all was quiet. At 9:05 nevertheless Gerry returned to apartment 5A to check for himself for the first time. Madeleine, he would recall, was lying in her bed as she had been when he had left. “I had one of those really proud father moments” he said. “I just thought “You’re absolutely beautiful and I love you …” At about 9:25, the friends would later agree, Kate, Matt Oldfield and Russ O’Brien were about to leave the table-all at the same time- to go to make sure their children were all right. When Oldfield offered to stop at 5A and check for her, Kate accepted the favour. He entered the McCann apartment peered into the children’s room without going in, then returned to say all was quiet. Snip>>>>>
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 13, 2014, 08:51:34 PM
If this great investigative journalist managed to find the evidence and arguments to show that the McCanns were in no way involved in Madeleine's disappearance, why hasn't he presented them? There is absolutely nothing in the book which would make anyone change their mind about the inconsistencies in the statements of the parents, the lies, their strange behaviour. Nothing he writes about the findings made by the dogs would make me change my mind either. Nothing new at all.
I don’t think you have read the book, Montclair, or if you have it sure ain’t the same one I’m reading.
First thing you should get clear about “the findings of the dogs” is that the dogs found nothing.
Perhaps the “strange behaviour” of the parents could be down to the fact that Madeleine McCann had vanished from the face of the earth … I think that might have had an impact.
I think the authors have written well about so called inconsistencies which will clarify the situation to readers new to Madeleine’s case.
I haven’t yet reached the chapter on the various campaigns mounted against the McCann family, wonder why you have nothing to say about those?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Montclair on September 13, 2014, 08:53:33 PM
I don’t think you have read the book, Montclair, or if you have it sure ain’t the same one I’m reading.
First thing you should get clear about “the findings of the dogs” is that the dogs found nothing.
Perhaps the “strange behaviour” of the parents could be down to the fact that Madeleine McCann had vanished from the face of the earth … I think that might have had an impact.
I think the authors have written well about so called inconsistencies which will clarify the situation to readers new to Madeleine’s case.
I haven’t yet reached the chapter on the various campaigns mounted against the McCann family, wonder why you have nothing to say about those?
Believe what you want! It will make no difference to me.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 13, 2014, 08:54:14 PM
do you have a tiny clue why it has not been established in court...
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2014, 08:55:34 PM
First thing you should get clear about “the findings of the dogs” is that the dogs found nothing.
I would go further.
Except, possibly, in the US forensic canine program, dogs never "find" anything ...
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 13, 2014, 08:55:59 PM
So Stephen accuses the mccanns of lying but is unable to give an example of them lying to the police..point proved
When Gerry gave his first statement to the police on 4 May 2007, he stated that he entered the apartment through the front door using the key. Six days later he changed his statement and said instead that they entered through the sliding glass doors. Which one is true? The other must be a lie.
.Furthermore, the AG in the archiving report stated that the parents lied about their checks on the children in the apartment
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 13, 2014, 08:57:27 PM
When Gerry gave his first statement to the police on 4 May 2007, he stated that he entered the apartment through the front door using the key. Six days later he changed his statement and said instead that they entered through the sliding glass doors. Which one is true? The other must be a lie.
You don't have a clue what he stated as the interviews were translated and not recorded...as alice would say...you would be laughed out of court
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Montclair on September 13, 2014, 09:00:54 PM
I don't have to and neither do the mccanns ...if you accuse them of lying then YOU have to prove they have..otherwise its libel
Are you accusing the judge who wrote the archiving report of libel because he wrote that the parents were not truthful about the checks on the children?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 13, 2014, 09:05:46 PM
The statements were signed by both Kate and Gerry and translated by persons authorised by the court.
last time I checked neither Kate nor Gerry spoke Portuguese so didn't have a clue what they were signing. As they were being interviewed as witnesses and not arguidos it didn't matter that much,,how come I keep having to explain Portuguese law and procedure to you...
interestingly in another case in the press the translator appointed by the court was a local hairdresser...another pointer to the poor standards in Portuguese justice
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 13, 2014, 09:07:50 PM
Are you accusing the judge who wrote the archiving report of libel because he wrote that the parents were not truthful about the checks on the children?
check the laws of libel and come back to me
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 13, 2014, 09:07:57 PM
Saturday, September 13, 2014
Summers and Swan interview – part 2 In part two of our interview with Anthony Summers and Robbyn Swan, the authors explain more about the background to their new book Looking for Madeleine, their thoughts on the police investigations so far, and what may now lie ahead in this extraordinary case.
How did you conduct your research? What was the process you followed? First and foremost, we spent months doing what we have done on our previous eight books, reading all possible available documentation – in many cases a logistic challenge because of the Portuguese language factor. All of this was sorted and allocated and built into a vast chronology. Chronology, carefully assembled, is the key to investigation – whether by law enforcement or non-fiction authors. When did you come to the conclusion that Kate and Gerry McCann played no part in covering up their daughter’s disappearance and that claims of this are unfounded? Were we to have to put a date on this current view of ours, we would say it was at the stage a few months ago when – after all the months of analysing the available evidence and testimony – we were finalizing the manuscript. Can your book be accurately considered as ‘the definitive account’ of this unsolved case? Note that our publisher has said that the book is “the most definitive account possible.” Possible at this time. We hope and believe that it is exactly the case at this point, as of September 2014. Events yet to occur may change that and – as and when they do – we would hope to update our work. Your book has been described as ‘a whitewash’ and ‘propaganda,’ and criticism has been levelled at the amount of ‘spin’ it received in the British media before publication? What is your reaction to this? It is emphatically not a whitewash, whether or not those making the allegations choose to believe it or not. Should they look at the available evidence and testimony, and in turn how we report it in Looking for Madeleine, they will find such allegations untenable. We know of no articles about us or the book that could be called "spin.” There have been news stories based on the information in the book - that is reporting. How would you sum up the way in which the investigations have been conducted over the past seven years? A muddle of events and developments, poorly reported and – because of the lengthy lapse of time after the case was archived – critically interrupted. Hopefully, with both nations’ police forces for some time now engaged in systematic fresh work, lost ground may be retrieved. How relevant is the Gamble report discussed on Sky TV shortly before publication of the book? The report written by former Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre head Jim Gamble and his team has not been released. In an interview for our book, Gamble discussed it, we believe, more openly and at greater length than ever before, and this was justifiably newsworthy. The inclusion of this self-critique of British law enforcement’s role in the investigation, from a senior source, was welcome and long overdue. The first Portuguese investigation has been widely criticised, often exaggeratedly and in a way that seemed xenophobic. The new openness from the UK’s Gamble may go some way to redressing the balance. Once it becomes ethically possible, Portuguese law enforcement may perhaps offer similar up-to-date background. Should that occur, we would be glad to report it in a new edition of Looking for Madeleine. How long do you expect the investigation to continue? Rather than speak in terms of months or weeks, we hope the investigations by both Portuguese and British law enforcement will be allowed to continue until they have followed up on all the lines of inquiry they regard as necessary. We hope the climate of public opinion in both countries develops positively, in a way that favours true international cooperation. Unbiased, moderate media reporting could do much to make this possible. Do you think the mystery will ever be solved? A major breakthrough would be a forensic lead. Any trace, dead or alive, of Madeleine. The police never forget, though, that someone, somewhere, knows – or suspects they have knowledge – of what happened to Madeleine. Someone’s wife, someone’s brother or sister or friend. Someone who noticed something but has until now kept it to themselves. What cold case investigators always hope for is that some hitherto unknown witness or witnesses will come forward with the fragment of information that can break the case. It’s happened in the past, and could yet happen in the case of Madeleine. Posted by Len Port at 11:12 AM
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 13, 2014, 09:13:59 PM
An article re another trial of a Brit in Portugal Garry’s trial in Portugal saw him arrested, tried and convicted all in the space of 48 hours. A British police officer in attendance at the trial has described how Garry was unable to instruct a lawyer and unable to understand the proceedings due to the poor quality of translation and interpretation provided. For this reason, a British court in 2005 found that his conviction in Portugal was unsafe and the trial had breached his fair trial rights.
So how good were the translators in the mccanns case?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2014, 09:30:09 PM
It's on 'you tube'.
The definitive last word.
More authoritative, even, than any court in any land ....
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 13, 2014, 09:32:59 PM
An article re another trial of a Brit in Portugal Garry’s trial in Portugal saw him arrested, tried and convicted all in the space of 48 hours. A British police officer in attendance at the trial has described how Garry was unable to instruct a lawyer and unable to understand the proceedings due to the poor quality of translation and interpretation provided. For this reason, a British court in 2005 found that his conviction in Portugal was unsafe and the trial had breached his fair trial rights.
So how good were the translators in the mccanns case?
Was this the case of the guy who was arrested during the 2004 European Cup? Do you have any references to this case? AFAIK, no one can go to court without a lawyer to represent him/her. Didn't the British Ambassador rush down from Lisbon to help him as he did with the McCanns?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Montclair on September 13, 2014, 09:42:13 PM
last time I checked neither Kate nor Gerry spoke Portuguese so didn't have a clue what they were signing. As they were being interviewed as witnesses and not arguidos it didn't matter that much,,how come I keep having to explain Portuguese law and procedure to you...
interestingly in another case in the press the translator appointed by the court was a local hairdresser...another pointer to the poor standards in Portuguese justice
Didn't the McCanns get a professional to translate the police files for them? Any discrepencies would have been pointed out, I'm sure.
Do you think that a local hairdresser is not capable of speaking a foreign language? She could have been bilingual for all you know, there a lot of people in the Algarve who have both English and Portuguese parents. Of course, most people in the Algarve speak English. AFAIK, most English don't bother to try to learn a foreign language, even the language of the country they are living in as expats.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: sadie on September 14, 2014, 12:04:20 AM
Thank you Alice. I allowed one minute there and the same back. Three minutes in apt for GM to use toilet and have his fatherly moment gazing at Madeleine and the three? minutes speaking with Jez. So roughly 8 minutes which would have seen him sit back down at table around 9.13 at the earliest? I don't understand why Kate would then stand up around 12 minutes later at 9.25 ready to go and carry out a check (the one that MO did instead)? And with all the two-ing and fro-ing from the tapas group between 9 and 9.30, I really don't see how Madeleine could have been 'taken' unnoticed during this time.
Hang on, the visit to the loo?
That could take 2 minutes or it could take 8 or 10.
Again, we dont know, do we?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 14, 2014, 02:57:03 AM
Yes we do. It doesn't take a genius to work out what really is going on Sadie! 2 moves to keep your alibi.
So he, yeah, he, he went off to his check and he was longer than a bit, because I can remember Kate sort of saying ‘Oh bet he’s put the footy on’, because I think there was a football match that night and she sort of said ‘Oh I think he’s probably’, erm, you know, ‘got side tracked and put the telly on and catch up on the score’, so he was gone a bit longer than normal. (JT)
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: sadie on September 14, 2014, 07:51:03 AM
Yes we do. It doesn't take a genius to work out what really is going on Sadie! 2 moves everyone knows they heard it from me. That's the way to keep your alibi but revealing 10:03 as Anthony Summers now knows from me (overconfidence precedes carelessness) was a gigantic mistake!
So he, yeah, he, he went off to his check and he was longer than a bit, because I can remember Kate sort of saying ‘Oh bet he’s put the footy on’, because I think there was a football match that night and she sort of said ‘Oh I think he’s probably’, erm, you know, ‘got side tracked and put the telly on and catch up on the score’, so he was gone a bit longer than normal. (JT)
Oh, so YOU KNOW how long Gerry was in the loo.
So YOU KNOW what he did in the loo [sorry to be so crude]
So YOU were there? Is this a confession?
Soz pathfinder, but *&*%£
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2014, 08:16:00 AM
Was this the case of the guy who was arrested during the 2004 European Cup? Do you have any references to this case? AFAIK, no one can go to court without a lawyer to represent him/her. Didn't the British Ambassador rush down from Lisbon to help him as he did with the McCanns?
Unfair Trial in Portugal · Garry Mann, a 52-year-old former fireman from Kent, attended the Euro 2004 football tournament in Portugal. While Garry was spending the night with friends in a bar in Albufeira, a riot took place in a nearby street. Garry was arrested on 15 June 2004 and was arrested, tried and convicted all in the space of 48 hours. A British police officer at the trial has described the proceedings as a “farce”. Garry had only five minutes with his lawyer before the trial and did not know what he was charged with until after he was convicted. He was unable to understand the proceedings due to the poor quality of interpretation: the interpreter was a local hairdresser and a friend of the judge’s wife.· On 18 June 2004, Garry consented to his deportation to the UK after reportedly being told by the Portuguese authorities that the sentence would not be carried out if he agreed to voluntary deportation. New evidence from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office confirms that they, too, shared this view. He was then escorted to the airport by the Portuguese authorities and sent back to the UK without having to serve any time in prison in Portugal.
poor quality of the interpretation...that should explain a lot in the McCann case
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2014, 09:40:46 AM
Unfair Trial in Portugal · Garry Mann, a 52-year-old former fireman from Kent, attended the Euro 2004 football tournament in Portugal. While Garry was spending the night with friends in a bar in Albufeira, a riot took place in a nearby street. Garry was arrested on 15 June 2004 and was arrested, tried and convicted all in the space of 48 hours. A British police officer at the trial has described the proceedings as a “farce”. Garry had only five minutes with his lawyer before the trial and did not know what he was charged with until after he was convicted. He was unable to understand the proceedings due to the poor quality of interpretation: the interpreter was a local hairdresser and a friend of the judge’s wife.· On 18 June 2004, Garry consented to his deportation to the UK after reportedly being told by the Portuguese authorities that the sentence would not be carried out if he agreed to voluntary deportation. New evidence from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office confirms that they, too, shared this view. He was then escorted to the airport by the Portuguese authorities and sent back to the UK without having to serve any time in prison in Portugal.
poor quality of the interpretation...that should explain a lot in the McCann case
'poor quality of the interpretation...that should explain a lot in the McCann case'.
You have evidence for this I presume ?
Meanwhile the 'poor quality' on display in Portugal was the mccanns parenting skills.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: sadie on September 14, 2014, 09:44:08 AM
P.S. I haven't said the mccanns were involved in Madeleine's demise. Please get things right.
If Maddie died in an accident as you have stated then the mccanns would be involved in several illegalities
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 14, 2014, 11:16:16 AM
Meanwhile back to the plot.
The authors own notes on sources (see book)
They met once with the McCanns They had one conversation with DCI Redwood who stated he would tell them nothing that was not in the MSM No interviews took place between the authors and serving police officers in either country, Principal sources were: The PJ files. Kate’s book Amaral’s book Collins’ book “Vanished” BBC News Sky News Panorama Crimewatch MSM: Telegraph, Guardian, Sunday Times, Sun , Mirror & Express, Correio de Manha,Diario de Noticia,Journal de Noticias,Horas,Publico,Sol, Tal & Qual, Algarve Resident & Portugal News.
Those who were interviewed included: Jim Gamble Brian Kennedy (double glazing magnate) Carlos Anjos Tony Bennett Pat Brown Bren Ryan Ex Metodo3 chief Elisenda Vilena Marcia Koenig & Andy Rebman (dog experts) Various experts on Toxicology and use of chloroform.
Those who refused interviews included Mark Harrison Martin Grime Chief Inspector Olegario de Sousa John Lowe of FSS Melissa Little (forensic artist with FSS) Angela Morado pro-consul for the Algarve Goncalo Aamaral Representatives of Mark Warner Representatives of FCO
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 14, 2014, 11:23:58 AM
That could take 2 minutes or it could take 8 or 10.
Again, we dont know, do we?
The issue in the context that it was raised by Amanda is that the longer the elapsed time the more bizarre.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 14, 2014, 11:44:38 AM
These are serious authors and respected journalists. They have come out strongly in support of the McCanns and have come down strongly on the McCanns doubters including Amaral, Brown, Bennett, Stevo...and others, and also on the supposed evidence against the McCanns including the dogs and DNA. Which ever way the doubters on here try to spin it...this is a very significant book.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 14, 2014, 11:51:01 AM
These are serious authors and respected journalists. They have come out strongly in support of the McCanns and have come down strongly on the McCanns doubters including Amaral, Brown, Bennett, Stevo...and others, and also on the supposed evidence against the McCanns including the dogs and DNA. Which ever way the doubters on here try to spin it...this is a very significant book.
Only to supporters.
To everyone else it's a day late and a dollar short.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 14, 2014, 12:15:24 PM
It is significant in as much that it is a powerful message to the general public that the McCanns are innocent
Now any member of the public with a bit of savvy and some research will see there's nae evidence of abduction.
and other possibilities exist. &%+((£
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: a.baker on September 14, 2014, 12:38:00 PM
Just wanted to point out,in the tapas groups own timeline that they submitted to the PJ,it states that Gerry only 'urinated' when he used the bathroom.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 14, 2014, 01:10:18 PM
Now any member of the public with a bit of savvy and some research will see there's nae evidence of abduction.
and other possibilities exist. &%+((£
I'm amember of the public...more than a bit savvy...and I can see that there is evidence of abduction and it is far and away the most probable thing that happened to maddie
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: pegasus on September 14, 2014, 01:18:07 PM
I'm amember of the public...more than a bit savvy...and I can see that there is evidence of abduction and it is far and away the most probaber thing that happened to maddie
In your theory, why did the child not wake up?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: xtina on September 14, 2014, 01:21:45 PM
To everyone else it's a day late and a dollar short.
Where is your evidence that it is only supporters who view this book as a serious piece of investigative journalism? Has it been poorly reviewed in the press? Have any normal people (ie: not the bunch of rabid loonies who have left 1 star reviews on Amazon) claimed it is a seriously flawed book?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 14, 2014, 04:20:27 PM
How has Summers suddenly become a one star author when most of his other books were rated manly 5 star...it's because the barmy army are on the march
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 14, 2014, 04:24:53 PM
I'm on chapter 6 so far and have yet to find any factual errors. Perhaps the book's harsh critics on here could list for us all the factual inaccuracies they have found in it...?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 14, 2014, 04:56:09 PM
What has surprised me with the book is how direct and dismissive the authors have been to those high profile doubters, including amaral
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 14, 2014, 05:16:12 PM
How has Summers suddenly become a one star author when most of his other books were rated manly 5 star...it's because the barmy army are on the march
The book on 9/11 did not receive a very good review in The Telegraph. "The problem is that the authors haven’t done enough original research. Most glaringly, they seem to have interviewed no major figures in the Bush administration" If you delve deeper into the reviews you will find this a common criticism. One review on the book on JFK which was considered his best work said "Summers is an honest researcher who unfortunately is too easily bamboozled by suspect witnesses with "interesting" stories to tell". That aside there are critical omissions in the latest book. It has however put a load of stuff under one roof which has maybe not been done before. It is an interesting concept to describe the book as "definitive" and say "sensible people will only come come to the conclusion she was abducted" when the case remains under investigation and other options by NSY's admission are in the frame.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2014, 05:19:15 PM
How has Summers suddenly become a one star author when most of his other books were rated manly 5 star...it's because the barmy army are on the march
The barmy army.......................
stop the myths,just another thought...., the purple place.
Yes the barmy army is well known. %£&)**# %£&)**# %£&)**#
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: John on September 14, 2014, 05:35:42 PM
Been otherwise engaged over the last few days so haven't had a chance yet to peruse the recent posts on this thread so has anyone actually read the book and can comment on content?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 14, 2014, 05:50:11 PM
Been otherwise engaged over the last few days so haven't had a chance yet to peruse the recent posts on this thread so has anyone actually read the book and can comment on content?
I've read parts of the book and as I have said I am surprised how he directly criticises amaral, pat brown and quite a few others and is really supportive of the mccanns. He looks at the dog alerts and continually states "no evidential reliability" and explains how wrong amaral's conclusions re the DNA evidence were.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: John on September 14, 2014, 05:55:47 PM
I've read parts of the book and as I have said I am surprised how he directly criticises amaral, pat brown and quite a few others and is really supportive of the mccanns. He looks at the dog alerts and continually states "no evidential reliability" and explains how wrong amaral's conclusions re the DNA evidence were.
Thanks Dave, I think we can all criticise those you mention and quite a few others too but where are these claimed new revelations? A useful exercise would be to list everything new according to Summers and Swan.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 14, 2014, 06:02:11 PM
The book on 9/11 did not receive a very good review in The Telegraph. "The problem is that the authors haven’t done enough original research. Most glaringly, they seem to have interviewed no major figures in the Bush administration" If you delve deeper into the reviews you will find this a common criticism. One review on the book on JFK which was considered his best work said "Summers is an honest researcher who unfortunately is too easily bamboozled by suspect witnesses with "interesting" stories to tell". That aside there are critical omissions in the latest book. It has however put a load of stuff under one roof which has maybe not been done before. It is an interesting concept to describe the book as "definitive" and say "sensible people will only come come to the conclusion she was abducted" when the case remains under investigation and other options by NSY's admission are in the frame.
“The best available general account of 9/11—soberly written, judiciously weighed, meticulously sourced.”—The Sunday Times
sunday times liked it
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 14, 2014, 06:04:00 PM
They met once with the McCanns They had one conversation with DCI Redwood who stated he would tell them nothing that was not in the MSM No interviews took place between the authors and serving police officers in either country, Principal sources were: The PJ files.
Kate’s book Amaral’s book Collins’ book “Vanished” BBC News Sky News Panorama Crimewatch MSM: Telegraph, Guardian, Sunday Times, Sun , Mirror & Express, Correio de Manha,Diario de Noticia,Journal de Noticias,Horas,Publico,Sol, Tal & Qual, Algarve Resident & Portugal News.
Oh stop the Tittering missus...
Those who were interviewed included: Jim Gamble Brian Kennedy (double glazing magnate) Carlos Anjos Tony Bennett Pat Brown Bren Ryan Ex Metodo3 chief Elisenda Vilena Marcia Koenig & Andy Rebman (dog experts) Various experts on Toxicology and use of chloroform. Hahahahaha 'investigative journalists'
Those who refused interviews included Mark Harrison Martin Grime Chief Inspector Olegario de Sousa John Lowe of FSS Melissa Little (forensic artist with FSS) Angela Morado pro-consul for the Algarve Goncalo Aamaral Representatives of Mark Warner Representatives of FCO
Now why would an 'investigative journalist' want to bother himself with all that 'investigative' work.. Hilarity in abundance - thanks Alice!
I must write book about Little Madddie....I want the cash to go around the world and buy nice things!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2014, 06:06:50 PM
I'm on chapter 6 so far and have yet to find any factual errors. Perhaps the book's harsh critics on here could list for us all the factual inaccuracies they have found in it...?
I have found one, a good deal further into the book than you have reached:
Page 152:
In his initial recommendations Harrison had suggested searching, not only accommodation used by the McCanns and their companions, but also, any hired vehicles.
Summers and Swan.
I dispute that. Harrison recommended that all vehicles owned or driven by Murat should be searched.
Also the places Madeleine, either definitely had been, or conceivably might have been, the Murat's place, the holiday apartments and areas in and around PdL.
Harrison does make an obscure reference to other places, but the way he words it bears close scrutiny.
In complying with these terms I undertook a series of briefings and site visits. These were with GNR and PJ personnel who had been involved in the previous searches conducted the week following Madeleine McCann’s disappearance in Praia da Luz.
The output of this process of reconnaissance and review was a written document entitled “Madeleine McCann Search Decision Support Document” (see appendix 2) and submitted to the PJ with copies supplied to Leicestershire Police and NPIA on 23-07-07. It recommended considering re searching:
- All accommodation occupied by the McCann family and their friends as well as any hired vehicles. - The villa and garden occupied by Robert Murat and any vehicles he had access to. - Areas of wasteland adjacent to Murat’s and the McCann’s apartment. - Areas of the beach in Praia da Luz. - A portion of the coastline east of Praia da Luz.
These recommendations were based on the fact that these areas had not been previously searched with the specific intent to locate Madeleine McCann’s concealed and deceased body and that the areas recommended afforded likely and obvious places to consider for concealment in such an investigation.
Harrison is, I think, clear that the recommendation for these searches was not his.
In the searches Harrison recommends, he is very precise. He states that all vehicles owned or driven by Murat should be inspected; also the holiday apartments and areas in and around PdL He doesn't mention the other vehicles or any of the other places until what I quote above, in his third and final report.
But it all looks spot-on otherwise ...
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 14, 2014, 06:11:01 PM
The Times liked it lol No, Someone who writes for the Times liked it. Everyone has an opinion.
Oh yes the Times being sued ...I would be surprised if they dare to print anything not approved by Team Mc and their PR machine.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2014, 06:13:46 PM
I have found one, a good deal further into the book than you have reached:
Page 152:
In his initial recommendations Harrison had suggested searching, not only accommodation used by the McCanns and their companions, but also, any hired vehicles.[/b]
Summers and Swan.
I dispute that. Harrison recommended that all vehicles owned or driven by Murat should be searched.
Also the places Madeleine, either definitely had been, or conceivably might have been, the Murat's place, the holiday apartments and areas in and around PdL.
Harrison does make an obscure reference to other places, but the way he words it bears close scrutiny.
In complying with these terms I undertook a series of briefings and site visits. These were with GNR and PJ personnel who had been involved in the previous searches conducted the week following Madeleine McCann’s disappearance in Praia da Luz.
The output of this process of reconnaissance and review was a written document entitled “Madeleine McCann Search Decision Support Document” (see appendix 2) and submitted to the PJ with copies supplied to Leicestershire Police and NPIA on 23-07-07. It recommended considering re searching:
- All accommodation occupied by the McCann family and their friends as well as any hired vehicles. - The villa and garden occupied by Robert Murat and any vehicles he had access to. - Areas of wasteland adjacent to Murat’s and the McCann’s apartment. - Areas of the beach in Praia da Luz. - A portion of the coastline east of Praia da Luz.
These recommendations were based on the fact that these areas had not been previously searched with the specific intent to locate Madeleine McCann’s concealed and deceased body and that the areas recommended afforded likely and obvious places to consider for concealment in such an investigation.
Harrison is, I think, clear that the recommendation for these searches was not his.
In the searches Harrison recommends, he is very precise. He states that all vehicles owned or driven by Murat should be inspected; also the holiday apartments and areas in and around PdL He doesn't mention the other vehicles or any of the other places until what I quote above, in his third and final report.
But it all looks spot-on otherwise ...
and what have they found that is anything new or of relevance ?
Will this book solve the case ?
A simple YES or NO would suffice.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2014, 06:19:14 PM
An Amazon reviewer............................
I'ts such a shame that the authors did not research the case before writing this book. There is a wealth of material on the McCann files and many other places on the internet that back up, without a shadow of a doubt, the theories of not just one but a whole team of Portuguese detectives, not to mention the British Police who helped to build this evidence. It seems that the book, which claims to be a true account, fails to mention the fact the many of the Private investigators employed by Brian Kennedy and the McCanns have since been imprisoned for activities outside the McCann investigation, but nevertheless were nothing other than fraudsters and crooks. Also missing is any mention of the evidence of two top British Cadaver dogs owned and trained by top dog handler Martin Grime. These dogs independently alerted to cadaver and blood in no less than 11 McCann related areas but nowhere else in Praia Da Luz. Other important documents such as the Gaspar statements and the report of Tavares de Almeida are also missing. ......................................... '
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 14, 2014, 06:21:56 PM
Where is your evidence that it is only supporters who view this book as a serious piece of investigative journalism? Has it been poorly reviewed in the press? Have any normal people (ie: not the bunch of rabid loonies who have left 1 star reviews on Amazon) claimed it is a seriously flawed book?
As far as I know no one in the press has reviewed it and the sales figures don't seem to be anything to write home about either.
But on the plus side Blacksmith has just chalked up a whopping 900 000 pageviews of his blog ! Well done Blacksmith 8@??)(
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2014, 06:26:12 PM
I'ts such a shame that the authors did not research the case before writing this book. There is a wealth of material on the McCann files and many other places on the internet that back up, without a shadow of a doubt, the theories of not just one but a whole team of Portuguese detectives, not to mention the British Police who helped to build this evidence. It seems that the book, which claims to be a true account, fails to mention the fact the many of the Private investigators employed by Brian Kennedy and the McCanns have since been imprisoned for activities outside the McCann investigation, but nevertheless were nothing other than fraudsters and crooks. Also missing is any mention of the evidence of two top British Cadaver dogs owned and trained by top dog handler Martin Grime. These dogs independently alerted to cadaver and blood in no less than 11 McCann related areas but nowhere else in Praia Da Luz. Other important documents such as the Gaspar statements and the report of Tavares de Almeida are also missing. ......................................... '
The authors have been discerning and selective in their choice of material for inclusion, in a bid to give the casual reader a broad overview of the bald facts.
There is no mention, for example, of the obscenity that passes for an "inspection" in the gym. At first I was surprised, but on closer reflection, I can see the logic and the rationale ...
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2014, 06:31:23 PM
The authors have been discerning and selective in their choice of material for inclusion, in a bid to give the casual reader a broad overview of the bald facts.
There is no mention, for example, of the obscenity that passes for an "inspection" in the gym. At first I was surprised, but on closer reflection, I can see the logic and the rationale ...
Broad facts are missing of course, aren't they ?
Do they give a breakdown of the mccanns behaviour in leaving children unsafe, whilst going out to drink, or is that libel ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 14, 2014, 06:31:45 PM
I'ts such a shame that the authors did not research the case before writing this book. There is a wealth of material on the McCann files and many other places on the internet that back up, without a shadow of a doubt, the theories of not just one but a whole team of Portuguese detectives, not to mention the British Police who helped to build this evidence. It seems that the book, which claims to be a true account, fails to mention the fact the many of the Private investigators employed by Brian Kennedy and the McCanns have since been imprisoned for activities outside the McCann investigation, but nevertheless were nothing other than fraudsters and crooks. Also missing is any mention of the evidence of two top British Cadaver dogs owned and trained by top dog handler Martin Grime. These dogs independently alerted to cadaver and blood in no less than 11 McCann related areas but nowhere else in Praia Da Luz. Other important documents such as the Gaspar statements and the report of Tavares de Almeida are also missing. ......................................... '
You quote an Amazon reviewer who quite obviously has not bothered to read the book but seems to be bothered about it nonetheless.
I have just finished reading the chapter on the British dogs ... so obviously the erudite Amazon reviewer refers to a different book than the one everyone else is reading.
The lesson is … do not believe everything or even anything ... people with a particular axe to grind say … quite often they are strangers to the truth if it doesn’t tie in with their limited perceptions.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2014, 06:34:40 PM
You quote an Amazon reviewer who quite obviously has not bothered to read the book but seems to be bothered about it nonetheless.
I have just finished reading the chapter on the British dogs ... so obviously the erudite Amazon reviewer refers to a different book than the one everyone else is reading.
The lesson is … do not believe everything or even anything ... people with a particular axe to grind say … quite often they are strangers to the truth if it doesn’t tie in with their limited perceptions.
So what does it say on the dogs ?
and as I said, has it come any nearer in solving Madeleine's disappearance ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 14, 2014, 06:35:30 PM
The authors have been discerning and selective in their choice of material for inclusion, in a bid to give the casual reader a broad overview of the bald facts.
There is no mention, for example, of the obscenity that passes for an "inspection" in the gym. At first I was surprised, but on closer reflection, I can see the logic and the rationale ...
I think they have held back material in readiness for a follow up book ... from what I have read so far I am also left with the impression they are treading very carefully with one eye on the sensibilities of the re-opened investigation.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 14, 2014, 06:38:17 PM
You quote an Amazon reviewer who quite obviously has not bothered to read the book but seems to be bothered about it nonetheless.
I have just finished reading the chapter on the British dogs ... so obviously the erudite Amazon reviewer refers to a different book than the one everyone else is reading.
The lesson is … do not believe everything or even anything ... people with a particular axe to grind say … quite often they are strangers to the truth if it doesn’t tie in with their limited perceptions.
I particularly like the way the authors tend to quote Grime, in that section, rather than stating what Grime says as if authoritative fact.
They are quite right that Grime was freelance in PdL.
We can't judge whether Grime's claim to be in post at South Yorkshire Police when he wrote his profile is true or not, because his profile is not dated.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 14, 2014, 06:48:00 PM
Been otherwise engaged over the last few days so haven't had a chance yet to peruse the recent posts on this thread so has anyone actually read the book and can comment on content?
Oh yes O Forum Owner. Downloaded it on Kindle and finished it. At the risk of having "The Posh Street Kids" set on me it is not much more than a precis of events with some bits missing and a lot of anecdotal stuff. It misses interesting points like what the archiving report said about the lack of reconstitution, what the LP said about "one or both etc" and misquoted Redwood (not easy to do when it's on you tube). The references list I posted earlier is interesting. I didn't notice any startling revelations. The beginning of chapter 4 refutes the idea the Portuguese treated it no better than looking for a dog. Not worth the download fee imo
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 14, 2014, 06:49:25 PM
Been otherwise engaged over the last few days so haven't had a chance yet to peruse the recent posts on this thread so has anyone actually read the book and can comment on content?
I'm at chapter 17, John; so far I have found it to be fair to everyone concerned. I thought it would be difficult to read a book the content of which I have become familiar with over the past year, but I have found it easy to read so consider that is an indicator of it being well written.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 14, 2014, 06:49:38 PM
Oh yes O Forum Owner. Downloaded it on Kindle and finished it. At the risk of having "The Posh Street Kids" set on me it is not much more than a precis of events with some bits missing and a lot of anecdotal stuff. It misses interesting points like what the archiving report said about the lack of reconstitution, what the LP said about "one or both etc" and misquoted Redwood (not easy to do when it's on you tube). The references list I posted earlier is interesting. I didn't notice any startling revelations. The beginning of chapter 4 refutes the idea the Portuguese treated it no better than looking for a dog. Not worth the download fee imo
Thanks for that.
i.e. a waste of money on two amateur writers, who have come up with nothing new, and omitted information detrimental to the mccanns.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ferryman on September 14, 2014, 06:58:29 PM
I think they have held back material in readiness for a follow up book ... from what I have read so far I am also left with the impression they are treading very carefully with one eye on the sensibilities of the re-opened investigation.
Interesting if true ...
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ferryman on September 14, 2014, 06:59:59 PM
I think they have held back material in readiness for a follow up book ... from what I have read so far I am also left with the impression they are treading very carefully with one eye on the sensibilities of the re-opened investigation.
do you mean such as this.....how sensible or accurate is that ...to get the info from ...a friend
The woman was surprised by a knock at the door from a lone conman who said he was collecting money for a nearby orphanage, which doesn’t exist.
As she chatted on the doorstep the woman noticed the man was paying close attention to her daughter who was standing by her side.
Later as she walked to a primary school to collect her other child she noticed the same man hanging around at the top of her road.
The school is just a stone’s throw from the Ocean Club, from where Madeleine was taken on May 3 seven years ago.
She thought little of the encounter until the following day when, as she walked down stairs in her villa, she saw that a man had entered her property and was with her daughter.
Because of the angle she was standing on the stairs she was on, she only got a look at the man’s legs, but felt certain that it was the same person who had come to her door previously.
Realising that he was about to be confronted, the intruder fled and the woman, although startled, chose not to go to the police.
The incident happened in the weeks before Madeleine was taken and has only just come to light in a book published last week, Looking For Madeleine, by investigative journalists Anthony Summers and his wife Robbyn Swan.
The authors did not speak directly to the British woman, who has since returned to live in the UK.
However, they spoke to a friend of hers who told them the story.
sounds like heresay to me......
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 14, 2014, 07:06:22 PM
I'm on chapter 6 so far and have yet to find any factual errors. Perhaps the book's harsh critics on here could list for us all the factual inaccuracies they have found in it...?
I have found one point which concerns me ... not about factual content ... but about methodology which has the potential to come back and bite them on the bum.
Unless someone else picks up on it ... I'm keeping schtum.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ferryman on September 14, 2014, 07:08:22 PM
I have found one point which concerns me ... not about factual content ... but about methodology which has the potential to come back and bite them on the bum.
Unless someone else picks up on it ... I'm keeping schtum.
Quoting from blogs?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 14, 2014, 07:22:28 PM
I haven't read first hand yet what caused the outrage articulated by a pretendy journalist … thought it would be in chapter 15 … they must have kept the best till last.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 14, 2014, 07:29:29 PM
Out of curiousity I went and took a look at his amazingly widely-read blog and have just read his latest cheery blog entry in which he seems jolly pleased with himself. He seems to think that nothing has come out of Operation Grange in the last 3 years which supports the abduction theory. All I can say is, what rock has he been sleeping under for the last 3 years?
He poses this question, so important he's bolded it:
Now ask yourself this question: if the McCanns had received a single suggestive titbit from Operation Grange’s three years’ work, just one new piece of evidence supporting them, would they not have given it to Summers?
We know that the McCanns didn't want this book to in any way jeopardize the on-going investigation so why would they have fed the authors anything that wasn't already in the public domain which may have done just that? He is a dummy sometimes, that Smiffy fella.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 14, 2014, 08:24:51 PM
I'ts such a shame that the authors did not research the case before writing this book. There is a wealth of material on the McCann files and many other places on the internet that back up, without a shadow of a doubt, the theories of not just one but a whole team of Portuguese detectives, not to mention the British Police who helped to build this evidence. It seems that the book, which claims to be a true account, fails to mention the fact the many of the Private investigators employed by Brian Kennedy and the McCanns have since been imprisoned for activities outside the McCann investigation, but nevertheless were nothing other than fraudsters and crooks. Also missing is any mention of the evidence of two top British Cadaver dogs owned and trained by top dog handler Martin Grime. These dogs independently alerted to cadaver and blood in no less than 11 McCann related areas but nowhere else in Praia Da Luz. Other important documents such as the Gaspar statements and the report of Tavares de Almeida are also missing. ......................................... '
looks like a false review by someone who hasn't read the book...there are several pages on the dogs
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2014, 08:26:12 PM
it describes the deployment of the dogs...stresses no evidential reliability as the results were not confirmed by forensics...basically says what I have been saying these last few years. it also says Amararal misrepresented the dogs alerts by where he claims the alerts confirmed the previous presence of a cadaver
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ferryman on September 14, 2014, 08:35:42 PM
it describes the deployment of the dogs...stresses no evidential reliability as the results were not confirmed by forensics...basically says what I have been saying these last few years. it also says Amararal misrepresented the dogs alerts by where he claims the alerts confirmed the previous presence of a cadaver
Also some fascinating original research on possible use of sedatives in the abduction ...
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ferryman on September 14, 2014, 08:39:04 PM
I have found one point which concerns me ... not about factual content ... but about methodology which has the potential to come back and bite them on the bum.
Unless someone else picks up on it ... I'm keeping schtum.
Just had another thought.
Are you referring to their reference to the deal put to Kate and Gerry as a "plea-bargain"?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2014, 08:39:20 PM
it describes the deployment of the dogs...stresses no evidential reliability as the results were not confirmed by forensics...basically says what I have been saying these last few years. it also says Amararal misrepresented the dogs alerts by where he claims the alerts confirmed the previous presence of a cadaver
A brief reminder if needed.
A lack of corroborative evidence from the forensics does not mean the dogs didn't alert to a body.
That's a fact.
Nothing else has come to light.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2014, 08:42:05 PM
A lack of corroborative evidence from the forensics does not mean the dogs didn't alert to a body.
That's a fact.
Nothing else has come to light.
a brief reminder to you...the lack of forensic evidence of an abductor does not rule one out
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on September 14, 2014, 10:42:10 PM
Quote from: Summers and Swan
“We had a single meeting with the McCanns and one with the Met – both of them early in our research. The parents, and then the police, made only one request of us – a fair one given the parents’ hope and the Met’s working thesis that Madeleine may still be alive – that we do nothing that might hinder or interfere with the ongoing investigation. We have been careful to abide by that request.”
Wasn't is such a pity that the McCann didn't follow their own advice? ?{)(**
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 14, 2014, 10:58:59 PM
Not to mention the e-fits withheld by the PJ at a very early stage in the investigation -
- Snipped - Portuguese police had detailed images of two suspects in the Madeleine McCann case three days after she disappeared but refused to release them.
- Snipped -
The similar images of a young, white man with dark and deep set eyes was put together from sightings by British holidaymaker Derek Flack and British expat Lance Purser.
Mr Flack saw a man acting suspiciously around the McCann's holiday apartment just before Madeleine went missing.
Mr Purser said he had seen a similar man in the weeks running up to her disappearance.
But neither e-fit was released and the only image Portuguese police circulated was a picture described as nothing more than an "egg with hair".
They said they could not release any images because of secrecy laws and the fear of prejudicing any further investigation.
But a friend of the McCanns said: "It is frankly outrageous that information relating to potential suspects was not made available as a matter of extreme urgency once it was clear what had happened.
"The early stages of this were crucial and the police of all people should know that. Seeing these images has come as a shock to everyone concerned."
What's new about our book is that we are the first people to actually stand back and take a look at all of the documents that have been released analysed them properly, put them in order and gave the public, the reading public something cogent about what might have happened to Madeleine that night.
Sorry lovey but Gonçalo beat you to it.
So what did happen to Madeleine? Did Summers and Swan answer their own promotional boast?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: sadie on September 15, 2014, 01:00:00 AM
What's new about our book is that we are the first people to actually stand back and take a look at all of the documents that have been released analysed them properly, put them in order and gave the public, the reading public something cogent about what might have happened to Madeleine that night.
Sorry lovey but Gonçalo beat you to it.
So what did happen to Madeleine? Did Summers and Swan answer their own promotional boast?
No you are wrong Angelo.
Amaral did not stand back. Instead, with indecent haste, he rushed in. By the following morning he had, upon his own admission, decided that there was no abductor and that Kate and Gerry were responsible.
Furthermore Amaral did NOT analyse the documents properly. Maybe he didn't understand what it meant that there were NO forensics backing his claims to the dogs "proved it".
Maybe he did understand, but just wanted to charge The Mccanns ?
You got it terribly wrong Angelo. Soz.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on September 15, 2014, 01:23:47 AM
So what did happen to Madeleine? Did Summers and Swan answer their own promotional boast?
No you are wrong Angelo.
Amaral did not stand back. Instead, with indecent haste, he rushed in. By the following morning he had, upon his own admission, decided that there was no abductor and that Kate and Gerry were responsible.
Furthermore Amaral did NOT analyse the documents properly. Maybe he didn't understand what it meant that there were NO forensics backing his claims to the dogs "proved it".
Maybe he did understand, but just wanted to charge The Mccanns ?
You got it terribly wrong Angelo. Soz.
In your dreams Sadie. Goncalo is one of the very few people who know the case inside out. Summer and Swan on the other hand are amateur sleuths who rely on second hand reports to facilitate their analysis. They are so far of the mark it is laughable. In fact you misrepresent events totally in that it was not Amaral alone who carried out the investigation but many others, British as well as Portuguese. What you cannot do is confuse the official investigation with Amaral's personal views which are expressed in his book.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: sadie on September 15, 2014, 01:24:57 AM
In your dreams Sadie. Goncalo was one of the very few people who know the case inside out. Summer and Swan on the other hand are amateur sleuths who rely on second hand reports to facilitate their analysis. They are so far of the mark it is laughable.
I accept that Amaral SHOULD have known more than Summer and Swan,
...... but he didn't [at best] understand what the dogs did and did NOT tell him. Seems Summer and Swan are on a higher mental plane, and DO understand what the dogs did and did NOT tell
And Amaral did NOT stand back and consider, he just jumped straight in, judging the Mccanns on that first morning of being guilty . He wasn't interested in an abductor .... and that was even before he got any real evidence in.
Actually there was none, no evidence against The Mccanns
And as far as Amaral was concerned there was NO sound analysis, just it seems, gut feeling.
All imo, of course, but the pointers are there.
Now I will wish you good night Angelo. I am tired.
I trust my opposing posts will still be standing in the morning ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on September 15, 2014, 01:36:13 AM
I accept that Amaral SHOULD have known more than Summer and Swan,
...... but he didn't [at best] understand what the dogs did and did NOT tell him. Seems Summer and Swan are on a higher mental plane, and DO understand what the dogs did and did NOT tell
us Amaral did NOT stand back and consider, he just jumped straight in, judging the Mccanns on that first morning of being guilty . He wasn't interested in an abductor .... and that was even before he got any real evidence in.
Actually there was none, no evidence against The Mccanns
And as far as Amaral was concerned there was NO sound analysis, just it seems, gut feeling.
All imo, of course, but the pointers are there.
Now I will wish you good night Angelo. I am tired.
It's trust my opposing posts will still be standing in the morning ?
Are you running away so soon Sadie? The dog alerts have not been proven one way or another, if remains are eventually found then those alerts will take on a whole new meaning.
Goncalo was correct to consider the McCanns as suspects, any detectives worth their salt would have done the same. His suspicions and the suspicions of those around him were brought about by the lies and half truths told by the tapas group. Their stories were conflicting and evasive.
You are also completely wrong about the evidence but I suspect you mean proof. Yes, there is no proof of involvement but similarly by the same token, there is no proof that they weren't involved. The perfect stalemate if you like.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: a.baker on September 15, 2014, 04:48:22 AM
Great post!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2014, 07:03:56 AM
Amaral got it wrong. He misunderstood the evidence. Summers and Swann explain where he was wrong and they come to the same conclusion as SY...that's what upsets some posters
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Wonderfulspam on September 15, 2014, 07:08:48 AM
Amaral got it wrong. He misunderstood the evidence. Summers and Swann explain where he was wrong and they come to the same conclusion as SY...that's what upsets some posters
Not to mention the e-fits withheld by the PJ at a very early stage in the investigation -
- Snipped - Portuguese police had detailed images of two suspects in the Madeleine McCann case three days after she disappeared but refused to release them.
- Snipped -
The similar images of a young, white man with dark and deep set eyes was put together from sightings by British holidaymaker Derek Flack and British expat Lance Purser.
Mr Flack saw a man acting suspiciously around the McCann's holiday apartment just before Madeleine went missing.
Mr Purser said he had seen a similar man in the weeks running up to her disappearance.
But neither e-fit was released and the only image Portuguese police circulated was a picture described as nothing more than an "egg with hair".
They said they could not release any images because of secrecy laws and the fear of prejudicing any further investigation.
But a friend of the McCanns said: "It is frankly outrageous that information relating to potential suspects was not made available as a matter of extreme urgency once it was clear what had happened.
"The early stages of this were crucial and the police of all people should know that. Seeing these images has come as a shock to everyone concerned."
Are you running away so soon Sadie? The dog alerts have not been proven one way or another, if remains are eventually found then those alerts will take on a whole new meaning.
Goncalo was correct to consider the McCanns as suspects, any detectives worth their salt would have done the same. His suspicions and the suspicions of those around him were brought about by the lies and half truths told by the tapas group. Their stories were conflicting and evasive.
You are also completely wrong about the evidence but I suspect you mean proof. Yes, there is no proof of involvement but similarly by the same token, there is no proof that they weren't involved. The perfect stalemate if you like.
Looks as if Mark Harrison is not worth his salt, then; nor the entire English judicial system, which does not admit dog alerts as "evidence" in court.
I'm fairly certain that even a Scottish judge (in Scotland, uncorroborated alerts are allowed as 'evidence') would have thrown out the alerts from canine activities in the (shelved) Madeleine investigation.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2014, 07:38:28 AM
So what did happen to Madeleine? Did Summers and Swan answer their own promotional boast?
Yes Angelo, Swan is full of her own self-importance.
They offer nothing knew.
Nomatter what they say, the mccanns are culpable for what they failed to do, i.e. ensure their children's safety.
As to the bull about someone watching the apartment.
it was a holiday area and people would be coming and going.
As to someone watching the 'targeted' apartment. @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
So on that basis, anyone standing outside any residence must be stalking the place and about to abduct children, especially if they have a spotty face or swarthy appearance.
Give me a break.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2014, 07:41:50 AM
Yes Angelo, Swan is full of her own self-importance.
They offer nothing knew.
Nomatter what they say, the mccanns are culpable for what they failed to do, i.e. ensure their children's safety.
As to the bull about someone watching the apartment.
it was a holiday area and people would be coming and going.
As to someone watching the 'targeted' apartment. @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
So on that basis, anyone standing outside any residence must be stalking the place and about to abduct children, especially if they have a spotty face or swarthy appearance.
Give me a break.
looks like the authors have reached the same conclusion as SY.....how can that be wide of the mark
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2014, 07:42:09 AM
Looks as if Mark Harrison is not worth his salt, then; nor the entire UK judicial system, which does not admit dog alerts as "evidence" in court.
I'm fairly certain that even a Scottish judge (in Scotland, uncorroborated alerts are allowed as 'evidence') would have thrown out the alerts from canine activities in the (shelved) Madeleine investigation.
ferryman.
Summers and Swan, just two amateurs, trying to line their pockets.
and of course they didn't 'liaise' with the mccanns. @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
So where is the scenario of accidental death dealt with ?
Now that would be naughty, wouldn't it ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2014, 07:43:27 AM
In your dreams Sadie. Goncalo is one of the very few people who know the case inside out. Summer and Swan on the other hand are amateur sleuths who rely on second hand reports to facilitate their analysis. They are so far of the mark it is laughable. In fact you misrepresent events totally in that it was not Amaral alone who carried out the investigation but many others, British as well as Portuguese. What you cannot do is confuse the official investigation with Amaral's personal views which are expressed in his book.
Have you read the book Angelo?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2014, 08:10:34 AM
It is quite remarkable and also sad, when any new 'development' emerges, the mccann supporters start swinging for the proverbial chandeliers, until of course the cold light of dawn emerges,and they realize nothing changes.
Then comes the BLUSTER. %£&)**# %£&)**# %£&)**#
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ferryman on September 15, 2014, 08:13:11 AM
Are you running away so soon Sadie? The dog alerts have not been proven one way or another, if remains are eventually found then those alerts will take on a whole new meaning.
Goncalo was correct to consider the McCanns as suspects, any detectives worth their salt would have done the same. His suspicions and the suspicions of those around him were brought about by the lies and half truths told by the tapas group. Their stories were conflicting and evasive.
You are also completely wrong about the evidence but I suspect you mean proof. Yes, there is no proof of involvement but similarly by the same token, there is no proof that they weren't involved. The perfect stalemate if you like.
And IMO any Lead detective worth his salt would have made a point of interviewing the people he suspected of being the perpetrators himself - as a matter of course. Surely in his position he would WANT to make his own assessment of the McCanns right at the beginning of the case?
As it turned out - all his decisions, opinions and conclusions about them were based on secondhand information.
IMO Not only unprofessional but totally incomprehensible - and a decision which he carefully hides from his readers in his own book.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ferryman on September 15, 2014, 08:25:13 AM
In your dreams Sadie. Goncalo is one of the very few people who know the case inside out. Summer and Swan on the other hand are amateur sleuths who rely on second hand reports to facilitate their analysis. They are so far of the mark it is laughable. In fact you misrepresent events totally in that it was not Amaral alone who carried out the investigation but many others, British as well as Portuguese. What you cannot do is confuse the official investigation with Amaral's personal views which are expressed in his book.
Amaral doesn't even appear to know basic procedures of Portuguese policing, such as that witness statements are taken individually, not collectively.
What other explanation is there of his claim that the Gaspars gave a "joint" statement?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2014, 08:26:36 AM
And IMO any Lead detective worth his salt would have made a point of interviewing the people he suspected of being the perpetrators himself - as a matter of course. Surely in his position he would WANT to make his own assessment of the McCanns right at the beginning of the case?
As it turned out - all his decisions, opinions and conclusions about them were based on secondhand information.
IMO Not only unprofessional but totally incomprehensible - and a decision which he carefully hides from his readers in his own book.
A brief reminder for the umpteenth time.
The nature of Madeleine's disappearance has yet to be ascertained.
So all possibilities should be fully investigated, and not just one.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2014, 08:28:00 AM
The nature of Madeleine's disappearance has yet to be ascertained.
So all possibilities should be fully investigated, and not just one.
The only possibility you are interested in has been fully investigated and dismissed.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2014, 10:13:21 AM
Just for starters........................
' May 3, between 11.30pm and 12.00midnight - Policia Judiciara [Portuguese National Police Force = PJ] arrive.
May 4 - Clarence Mitchell, the then Head of the 40-strong Central Office of Information Media Monitoring Unit, at the heart of the government’s ‘spin machine’, is appointed by the government to control publicity on the McCann case. He flies out to Praia da Luz later in May. Before doing so, he boasts in a TV interview that it was he who spoke to Archbishop Cormac Murphy O’Connor and got him to arrange an audience for the McCanns with the Pope in Rome.
May 4, 4am - PJ ask McCanns to vacate Apartment 5A. Mark Warners move them to a different location in the Ocean Club. The crime scene in Apartment 5A is sealed and examined later that morning.
May 4 - Sniffer dogs are brought in, the Spanish and border police and airports are notified. Volunteer teams comb the village, resort and beach for clues. Already, the McCanns begin to accuse the Portuguese police of ‘not doing enough’ to find Madeleine. In the evening, the McCanns make an emotional plea, speaking of their ‘anguish and despair’.
May 4 - Alex Woolfall, Head of Crisis Management at Bell Pottinger, one of the nation's top media and public relations firms, flies out to Praia da Luz, and spends much time advising the McCanns
May 5 - David Hopkins, Managing Director of Mark Warners, flies out to help, together with the Director (Alan Pike) and another member (Martin Alderton) of the Skipton-based Centre for Crisis Psychology (CCP), both appointed by Mark Warners and presumably paid by them. The Skipton Herald reports that “Mr Alderton has counselled those affected by major disasters across the country”, while a spokesman for Mark Warner said: ‘The Centre for Crisis Psychology (CCP) came highly recommended by industry partners and have been known to us for some time. Their experience in dealing with a variety of incidents is second to none’.
May 5 - At least three police officers from Leicestershire Police fly out to praia da Luz, including Detective Superintendent Bob Small, who spoke to Jane Tanner on 13 May shortly before she adamantly identified Robert Murat as the abductor she''d seen 10 days earlier (see below)
Between May 5 and 12 - Two top people from Control Risks Group (CRG) are dispatched to Praia da Luz, Kenneth Farrow and Michael Keenan. Mr Farrow is the ex-head of the Economic Crime Unit in the City of London Police and Mr Keenan an ex-Superintendent from the Metropolitan Police with specialist fraud and investigative experience. No-one knows how they can help find a missing child, but Jane Tanner admits to speaking to them before she identified Robert Murat as the man with a child she claimed to have seen on 3 May. It is uncertain who promised to pay for them to come out; it could have been the government, or Brian Kennedy. Jane Tanner referred to them as ‘the people Kate and Gerry brought in’.
Also during this time Foreign and Commonwealth Office staff were sent out to Praia da Luz, including Sheree Dodd, who soon returned to London amid reports that she did not accept the McCanns’ claims that Madeleine had been abducted. '
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Benice on September 15, 2014, 10:52:06 AM
' May 3, between 11.30pm and 12.00midnight - Policia Judiciara [Portuguese National Police Force = PJ] arrive.
May 4 - Clarence Mitchell, the then Head of the 40-strong Central Office of Information Media Monitoring Unit, at the heart of the government’s ‘spin machine’, is appointed by the government to control publicity on the McCann case. He flies out to Praia da Luz later in May. Before doing so, he boasts in a TV interview that it was he who spoke to Archbishop Cormac Murphy O’Connor and got him to arrange an audience for the McCanns with the Pope in Rome.
May 4, 4am - PJ ask McCanns to vacate Apartment 5A. Mark Warners move them to a different location in the Ocean Club. The crime scene in Apartment 5A is sealed and examined later that morning.
May 4 - Sniffer dogs are brought in, the Spanish and border police and airports are notified. Volunteer teams comb the village, resort and beach for clues. Already, the McCanns begin to accuse the Portuguese police of ‘not doing enough’ to find Madeleine. In the evening, the McCanns make an emotional plea, speaking of their ‘anguish and despair’.
May 4 - Alex Woolfall, Head of Crisis Management at Bell Pottinger, one of the nation's top media and public relations firms, flies out to Praia da Luz, and spends much time advising the McCanns
May 5 - David Hopkins, Managing Director of Mark Warners, flies out to help, together with the Director (Alan Pike) and another member (Martin Alderton) of the Skipton-based Centre for Crisis Psychology (CCP), both appointed by Mark Warners and presumably paid by them. The Skipton Herald reports that “Mr Alderton has counselled those affected by major disasters across the country”, while a spokesman for Mark Warner said: ‘The Centre for Crisis Psychology (CCP) came highly recommended by industry partners and have been known to us for some time. Their experience in dealing with a variety of incidents is second to none’.
May 5 - At least three police officers from Leicestershire Police fly out to praia da Luz, including Detective Superintendent Bob Small, who spoke to Jane Tanner on 13 May shortly before she adamantly identified Robert Murat as the abductor she''d seen 10 days earlier (see below)
Between May 5 and 12 - Two top people from Control Risks Group (CRG) are dispatched to Praia da Luz, Kenneth Farrow and Michael Keenan. Mr Farrow is the ex-head of the Economic Crime Unit in the City of London Police and Mr Keenan an ex-Superintendent from the Metropolitan Police with specialist fraud and investigative experience. No-one knows how they can help find a missing child, but Jane Tanner admits to speaking to them before she identified Robert Murat as the man with a child she claimed to have seen on 3 May. It is uncertain who promised to pay for them to come out; it could have been the government, or Brian Kennedy. Jane Tanner referred to them as ‘the people Kate and Gerry brought in’.
Also during this time Foreign and Commonwealth Office staff were sent out to Praia da Luz, including Sheree Dodd, who soon returned to London amid reports that she did not accept the McCanns’ claims that Madeleine had been abducted. '
So can you point out please - where the author gives the reasons why SY and the UK government have set out to deliberately con - not only the UK public - but also the rest of the world into believing the McCanns are innocent - if they know they are guilty? That was my question to you.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 15, 2014, 11:10:03 AM
The book from what snippets I've been given, is the work of amateurs, merely recapping already known information.
As to SY, they have found NOTHING.
and if you believe otherwise, then you are in cloud cuckoo land.
P.S. A lot of people work hard brietta, and we've heard that one before about the mccanns.
Yet another sob story and extremely BORING.
One might almost think you have a direct link to them. 8)-)))
Hmmm … no ‘[ censored word ]s’? yet you imply I might ‘have a direct link to them’ which is mega [ censored word ]ing always dragged out of the toolbox as a last resort.
Doesn’t discredit me, rather goes to show you have nothing to counter with, nothing new there then.
No one implied that Summers and Swann are anything other than writers collating information on what until very recently was a closed case.
IYO they may well be ‘amateurs’ in their field, certainly not in mine; but let’s face the truth though, if the ‘professionals’ in their field had carried out a thorough systematic investigation at the time, there would not have been literally hundreds of un-investigated threads left hanging in the air enabling the PJ and the Met to justify reopening Madeleine’s case.
The very professional writers have pulled quite a few threads together and will give fresh understanding to those who do not have an in depth knowledge of the acknowledged failures in Madeleine’s case.
Unfortunately you are unashamedly perpetrating the mistakes of the past.
You haven’t bothered to read the book but you insist on having an uniformed opinion on it.
Instead you have chosen to rely on ‘snippets’ which you have been given.
Therein lies the genesis of much of the misinformation and myths permeating the internet … snippets impressionable people have been given.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 15, 2014, 11:13:24 AM
So what did happen to Madeleine? Did Summers and Swan answer their own promotional boast?
Well according to that interview they put forward "what might have happened to Madeleine that night". Might in this context is merely expressing a possibility or if you like speculating. But in fairness to them they did say in the book that the archiving report was critical of the McCanns but, understandably, without giving detail (Chapter 14).
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2014, 11:16:36 AM
Hmmm … no ‘[ censored word ]s’? yet you imply I might ‘have a direct link to them’ which is mega [ censored word ]ing always dragged out of the toolbox as a last resort.
Doesn’t discredit me, rather goes to show you have nothing to counter with, nothing new there then.
No one implied that Summers and Swann are anything other than writers collating information on what until very recently was a closed case.
IYO they may well be ‘amateurs’ in their field, certainly not in mine; but let’s face the truth though, if the ‘professionals’ in their field had carried out a thorough systematic investigation at the time, there would not have been literally hundreds of un-investigated threads left hanging in the air enabling the PJ and the Met to justify reopening Madeleine’s case.
The very professional writers have pulled quite a few threads together and will give fresh understanding to those who do not have an in depth knowledge of the acknowledged failures in Madeleine’s case.
Unfortunately you are unashamedly perpetrating the mistakes of the past.
You haven’t bothered to read the book but you insist on having an uniformed opinion on it.
Instead you have chosen to rely on ‘snippets’ which you have been given.
Therein lies the genesis of much of the misinformation and myths permeating the internet … snippets impressionable people have been given.
Now brietta.
Will the book solve Madeleine's disappearance, NO.
Will it make the authors money, YES.
Has it added anything new to the 'investigation', NO.
Have SY found anything, NO.
Acknowledged failures brietta....
Well UK police forces are unfortunately well known for that as well, aren't they ?
How many 'perfect' police investigations are there ?
and as to the mccanns, are they PERFECT PARENTS ? &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 15, 2014, 12:14:12 PM
Will the book solve Madeleine's disappearance, NO.
Will it make the authors money, YES.
Has it added anything new to the 'investigation', NO.
Have SY found anything, NO.
Acknowledged failures brietta....
Well UK police forces are unfortunately well known for that as well, aren't they ?
How many 'perfect' police investigations are there ?
and as to the mccanns, are they PERFECT PARENTS ? &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
Thank you for that highly revealing dialogue, Stephen.
One can immediately see precisely why properly researched and collated information contained within the pages of “Looking for Madeleine” would be of absolutely no interest to you and why you do not bother to read it.
I doubt if the book was written with the expectation of being the instrument to “solve Madeleine’s disappearance”.
It does throw some light on those who hold opinions such as yours who harp on about the Drs McCann’s parenting skills and denigrate Operation Grange while lauding the rather questionable conduct of those who were in charge of and botched the original investigation into Madeleine's disappearance.
Now as to money; you seem to imply there is something questionable about authors expecting to “make money” from two years of factual research which has enabled them to write a book which clarifies many erroneous suppositions.
Initially Summers and Swann didn’t know what their research was going to uncover and it was six of one half a dozen of the other to them, just as long as the book sales took off.
That they have arrived at a conclusion which exonerates Madeleine’s parents is indicative that as a result of competent research they believe the evidence points to that.
One wonders why you have absolutely no criticism of Dr Amaral’s book.
It was certainly written to “make money” for the author.
Unlike Summers and Swan, Dr Amaral’s book was not an unbiased research vehicle but was written with particular self seeking agendas to the fore.
Why the omission to castigate Dr Amaral’s money making venture, Stephen?
Please be consistent in your attacks on authors and don’t criticise one while eulogising another for “making money” out of the case of a missing little girl.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2014, 12:25:06 PM
Thank you for that highly revealing dialogue, Stephen.
One can immediately see precisely why properly researched and collated information contained within the pages of “Looking for Madeleine” would be of absolutely no interest to you and why you do not bother to read it.
I doubt if the book was written with the expectation of being the instrument to “solve Madeleine’s disappearance”.
It does throw some light on those who hold opinions such as yours who harp on about the Drs McCann’s parenting skills and denigrate Operation Grange while lauding the rather questionable conduct of those who were in charge of and botched the original investigation into Madeleine's disappearance.
Now as to money; you seem to imply there is something questionable about authors expecting to “make money” from two years of factual research which has enabled them to write a book which clarifies many erroneous suppositions.
Initially Summers and Swann didn’t know what their research was going to uncover and it was six of one half a dozen of the other to them, just as long as the book sales took off.
That they have arrived at a conclusion which exonerates Madeleine’s parents is indicative that as a result of competent research they believe the evidence points to that.
One wonders why you have absolutely no criticism of Dr Amaral’s book.
It was certainly written to “make money” for the author.
Unlike Summers and Swan, Dr Amaral’s book was not an unbiased research vehicle but was written with particular self seeking agendas to the fore.
Why the omission to castigate Dr Amaral’s money making venture, Stephen?
Please be consistent in your attacks on authors and don’t criticise one while eulogising another for “making money” out of the case of a missing little girl.
Where did they investigate the accidental death theory ?
If you had done your research properly, I have already said no one should profit from this case.
So you got that wrong as well.
Botched investigation brietta ?
In whose view ?
Yours does not count. Your not important enough.
Madeleine's parents parenting skills are in question.
Their arrogant stupidity led to the events of Madeleine's disappearance.
To deny that itself is simply unbelievable, unless you have a vested interest in defending the mccanns.
%£&)**# %£&)**# %£&)**#
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 15, 2014, 12:34:32 PM
it describes the deployment of the dogs...stresses no evidential reliability as the results were not confirmed by forensics...basically says what I have been saying these last few years. it also says Amararal misrepresented the dogs alerts by where he claims the alerts confirmed the previous presence of a cadaver
The first page of chapter 14 deals with this. Snip>>>>> "... grew out of a perhaps understandable Portuguese misinterpretation of a poorly worded-but key-forensic finding in a preliminary email from the FSS" Snip>>>> No mention of Dr Amaral in this context. He is mentioned several pages later in the context of his removal from the case. The curious thing about the dogs is that they list Marcia Koenig and Andy Rebmann in their references and suggest they were interviewed. These people along with Dr Debra Komar are among the worlds leading experts on so called cadaver dogs. There appears to be no referenced quote as to what their opinion my have been. Quoted are what appear to be comments made by nameless gash hands.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on September 15, 2014, 01:20:44 PM
Amaral got it wrong. He misunderstood the evidence. Summers and Swann explain where he was wrong and they come to the same conclusion as SY...that's what upsets some posters
How do you know that Gonc misinterpreted the dog alerts? Nobody knows at this point in time what the dogs alerted to and that includes S&S.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ferryman on September 15, 2014, 01:30:25 PM
The first page of chapter 14 deals with this. Snip>>>>> "... grew out of a perhaps understandable Portuguese misinterpretation of a poorly worded-but key-forensic finding in a preliminary email from the FSS" Snip>>>> No mention of Dr Amaral in this context. He is mentioned several pages later in the context of his removal from the case. The curious thing about the dogs is that they list Marcia Koenig and Andy Rebmann in their references and suggest they were interviewed. These people along with Dr Debra Komar are among the worlds leading experts on so called cadaver dogs. There appears to be no referenced quote as to what their opinion my have been. Quoted are what appear to be comments made by nameless gash hands.
Depends.
If the authors invited Komar and Rebmann to comment on Grime's handling of his dog in PdL, or on the "Enhanced" victim Recovery dog status, I can understand why the authors might have been a little reticent about including their remarks ...
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: xtina on September 15, 2014, 01:38:08 PM
Let's be fair.... what would one expect a professional writer to do..... write a book to be carter-rucked or write a book for mega bucks......
Everyone knows by now .... writers and media alike ..... that they are not allowed to say anything against the mccs so called official version of events or else! That is a crime of lésé majesté
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ferryman on September 15, 2014, 01:43:07 PM
Let's be fair.... what would one expect a professional writer to do..... write a book to be carter-rucked or write a book for mega bucks......
Everyone knows by now .... writers and media alike ..... that they are not allowed to say anything against the mccs so called official version of events or else! That is a crime of lésé majesté
If a professional author thought there was a story to be told that couldn't be told for legal reasons, they wouldn't write the book.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 15, 2014, 01:43:26 PM
Let's be fair.... what would one expect a professional writer to do..... write a book to be carter-rucked or write a book for mega bucks......
Everyone knows by now .... writers and media alike ..... that they are not allowed to say anything against the mccs so called official version of events or else! That is a crime of lésé majesté
If there is nothing to justify a carter-rucking in a book it would be impossible to carter- ruck an author.
In other words ... they would only be carter-rucked if what they wrote was libel.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: xtina on September 15, 2014, 02:02:35 PM
that was my point.....you have to write a book about the abduction....god forbid ...you dare criticise the mccs ...
I dont understand your point ...if there is a story to be told .its nothing new..non of it....unless you mean that is all it is ...a story...
There is a story to be told about an grave injustice meted out to innocent and bereft parents desperate to have their loved and cherished daughter back -- and the authors have told it.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2014, 03:33:41 PM
How do you know that Gonc misinterpreted the dog alerts? Nobody knows at this point in time what the dogs alerted to and that includes S&S.
IMo The main reason for his misinterpretation was that he apparently believed that wherever Eddie alerted - that was proof that a dead body must have been in that spot. And as we know from Martin Grime - that is not necessarily the case. There are other reasons for an alert which do not involve a cadaver. It is obvious that Amaral was completely ignorant of those other reasons for an alert. IOW he didn't do his homework properly.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on September 15, 2014, 03:45:51 PM
IMo The main reason for his misinterpretation was that he apparently believed that wherever Eddie alerted - that was proof that a dead body must have been in that spot. And as we know from Martin Grime - that is not necessarily the case. There are other reasons for an alert which do not involve a cadaver. It is obvious that Amaral was completely ignorant of those other reasons for an alert. IOW he didn't do his homework properly.
Your claim that he misunderstood or misinterpreted the alerts is not competent since nobody has been able to prove it one way or another. For all anyone knows Goncalo was spot on.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 15, 2014, 03:56:55 PM
IMo The main reason for his misinterpretation was that he apparently believed that wherever Eddie alerted - that was proof that a dead body must have been in that spot. And as we know from Martin Grime - that is not necessarily the case. There are other reasons for an alert which do not involve a cadaver. It is obvious that Amaral was completely ignorant of those other reasons for an alert. IOW he didn't do his homework properly.
According to Summers & Swan the reason for misinterpretation was a poorly drafted email from the FSS. Anything else they say in this context is seasoned liberally with words like "seem" and "appear". As pretty well all of those involved declined interviews they had to rely on existing documentation.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 15, 2014, 04:07:25 PM
or even how to make big bucks on the back of a little girls misfortune.
I trust you are similarly disapproving of every non-fiction book ever written about any misfortune that has ever befallen anyone, ever, if the author(s) derived profit from it?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 15, 2014, 04:14:34 PM
There is a story to be told about an grave injustice meted out to innocent and bereft parents desperate to have their loved and cherished daughter back -- and the authors have told it.
The authors have indeed addressed a grave injustice and without resorting to rhetoric have highlighted the disturbing aspect of the concerted attacks on Madeleine’s parents who have become the focus for everything which is abhorrent about human nature amplified by the abuse of the anonymous platform provided by the internet.
Indeed it is a story which is worthy of telling; when combined with the telling of the parents' physical and mental distress is one for people to ponder. It has been a matter of record ... but the recoding of the abuse by respected authors is long overdue and may indeed galvanise officialdom into redressing the balance.
Naming and shaming anyone?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 15, 2014, 04:34:53 PM
or even how to make big bucks on the back of a little girls misfortune.
The first to jump on the particular bandwagon of making 'big bucks' out of Madeleine McCann were Paulo Pereira Cristóvão and Hernani Carvalho followed shortly thereafter by Goncalo Amaral.
The book authored by Summers & Swann has the advantage in having been written with due attention given to legitimate research and the facts of the case such as are known.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Benice on September 15, 2014, 04:36:43 PM
Your claim that he misunderstood or misinterpreted the alerts is not competent since nobody has been able to prove it one way or another. For all anyone knows Goncalo was spot on.
But that is the whole point Angelo - it hasn't been proved one way or another. So do you think it was fair and honest for Amaral to lead the readers of his book to believe that it had been proved?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2014, 05:30:36 PM
Your claim that he misunderstood or misinterpreted the alerts is not competent since nobody has been able to prove it one way or another. For all anyone knows Goncalo was spot on.
amaral misunderstood the alerts. He was under the impression that the alerts proved the presence of cadaverine...he also misunderstood the DNA. Read the book...you will learn something
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ferryman on September 15, 2014, 05:32:57 PM
The first to jump on the particular bandwagon of making 'big bucks' out of Madeleine McCann were Paulo Pereira Cristóvão and Hernani Carvalho followed shortly thereafter by Goncalo Amaral.
The book authored by Summers & Swann has the advantage in having been written with due attention given to legitimate research and the facts of the case such as are known.
Of course, the big difference between them and the McCanns is that money the McCanns made was not for them!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 15, 2014, 06:33:15 PM
Waterloo has 5 reviews............LFM has 12 already...strange
The trolls are knocking themselves out to rubbish this book - they're obviously terrified of it. It's quite hilarious! @)(++(*
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 15, 2014, 06:49:33 PM
"Waterloo" has been discounted from £25 to £9 on Amazon - using troll logic this must mean it's a flop. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2014, 06:51:48 PM
The whole point is that a book which strongly supports the mccanns...rubbishes their critics ...has been written by two respected journalists...that is a fact
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2014, 07:40:44 PM
The whole point is that a book which strongly supports the mccanns...rubbishes their critics ...has been written by two respected journalists...that is a fact
No dave.
That is your opinion and the one trotted out by the mccann minions.
The journalists have done nothing new, just presented the some of the files in a different order.
and of course have only looked at one scenario.
So, a very boring book.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Bert Singe on September 15, 2014, 07:55:11 PM
That is your opinion and the one trotted out by the mccann minions.
The journalists have done nothing new, just presented the some of the files in a different order.
and of course have only looked at one scenario.
So, a very boring book.
A book that strongly supports the mccanns and debunks the supposed evidence against them
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: misty on September 15, 2014, 08:13:07 PM
So - a new DVD, another new book, neither of which I have looked at. Would someone be a dear & sum up all the new cluesies which have been revealed, please, or may I go back to sleep until the next Sky News bulletin?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Bert Singe on September 15, 2014, 08:18:41 PM
Yes but they really were shit, even most "sceptics" thought so @)(++(*
The narrator was shit (without a doubt - bored me senseless if I'm honest) whereas the content was not. The documentary was successful in highlighting the abnormality of this case.
I haven't read the S & S book so I've no comment. It could be groundbreaking for all I know. The difference between myself and half the pro apologists on here is that I'll refrain from judging it until I've read every last word. Some pros on here were literally driven crazy by the thought of watching the videos, which is fair enough if you really didn't want to listen to the guy's boring narration, but in fairness to the general argument it's BS to comment so vociferously as some did when they hadn't even seen it!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2014, 08:19:30 PM
It was the absence of evidence of abduction and the inconsistent and changing stories of the mccanns and associates that led the PJ to look at the mccanns.
There was no trace of Madeleine at all, and then the indications of the dogs reinforced their suspicions. The lack of forensic backup, has not changed the distinct possibility that Madeleine died in the apartment.
Personally, when I first saw the story, I felt sympathy, as I thought it was a genuine case of a missing child. Subsequent events and information changed my mind.
Whether you admit it or not, the mccanns have received help all the way to three different P.M.'s , and that's not counting numerous other people who have backed them, without even looking at the available information on what happened.
As to cover-ups, they happen, unless you are too blind to see them.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2014, 08:21:19 PM
The narrator was shit (without a doubt - bored me senseless if I'm honest) whereas the content was not. The documentary was successful in highlighting the abnormality of this case.
I haven't read the S & S book so I've no comment. It could be groundbreaking for all I know. The difference between myself and half the pro apologists on here is that I'll refrain from judging it until I've read every last word. Some [ censored word ] on here were literally driven crazy by the thought of watching the videos, which is fair enough if you really didn't want to listen to the guy's boring narration, but in fairness to the general argument it's BS to comment so vociferously as some did when they hadn't even seen it!
The most important difference between the book and the video in my view is that only the most zealous McCann [ censored word ] would have the time and energy to wade through the mire of those videos. The book, on the other hand is accessible, very readable, and will reach a much wider audience (in one form or another).
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2014, 08:29:38 PM
The most important difference between the book and the video in my view is that only the most zealous McCann [ censored word ] would have the time and energy to wade through the mire of those videos. The book, on the other hand is accessible, very readable, and will reach a much wider audience (in one form or another).
That is a matter of opinion.
Unless of course you are a mccann supporter [ censored word ] who believes in the fairy tale of abduction.
Oh, that's you alfred. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2014, 08:53:28 PM
Only one side of the story, and did you really expect that pair to say something other than they did, and risk the wrath of Carter-Ruck ?
If you do, you're more naive than I thought.
it would be very easy to write a book pointing out all the evidence against the mccanns.. but not directly accusing them....and they would have sold far more copies...amaral was an arrogant fool who thought the mccanns would not sue
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 15, 2014, 08:57:52 PM
it would be very easy to write a book pointing out all the evidence against the mccanns.. but not directly accusing them....and they would have sold far more copies...amaral was an arrogant fool who thought the mccanns would not sue
It would be a very short book!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2014, 09:00:35 PM
you recently posted a long posts of doctors with criminal convictions...most are still working ...DBS checks here have made no difference
and that dave is what is wrong with the system.
Doctors given preferential treatment.
Would you want a doctor with paedophile intentions examining a child of yours ?
Remember one, who the BMJ knew about, Healy, who was only finally charged and imprisoned after several of his patients went to the police.
So it can be done, can't it.
However, in this case with what has happened, now you tell me what would happen to the mccanns and anyone who colluded with them, if the abduction was revealed to be a total fabrication ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2014, 09:02:39 PM
it would be very easy to write a book pointing out all the evidence against the mccanns.. but not directly accusing them....and they would have sold far more copies...amaral was an arrogant fool who thought the mccanns would not sue
That is your view and your fellow supporters dave, because you back the mccanns.
As to arrogance, just look at the mccanns and what they did.
In fact gm is the epitomy of arrogance. IMO of course.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 15, 2014, 09:03:39 PM
Would you want a doctor with paedophile intentions examining a child of yours ?
Remember one, who the BMJ knew about, Healy, who was only finally charged and imprisoned after several of his patients went to the police.
So it can be done, can't it.
However, in this case with what has happened, now you tell me what would happen to the mccanns and anyone who colluded with them, if the abduction was revealed to be a total fabrication ?
That's exactly why they would not fabricate an abduction
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 15, 2014, 09:06:37 PM
Several snips out of context make them basically meaningless...as for the dogs....
The dogs alerts make no difference to the premise...Maddie may have died in the apartment...that statement is true with or without the alerts.... redwood made no reference to the dogs.
The fact that Redwood has said that Maddie may still be alive shows that he thinks the alerts may be wrong
What a poor response. Admit it you were making things up and you have been rumbled. Sadly you are talking garbage again try taking your own advice and read the book properly. You will learn something
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 15, 2014, 09:08:33 PM
Amazing comment considering a week ago you thought the book would be pointless.
I must admit I never expected the authors to be so blunt in their criticism of amaral, brown etc. and so strong in there support for the mccanns.....I'm pleasantly surprised...I can see why you and the other doubters are so irritated by it
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2014, 09:15:41 PM
The most important difference between the book and the video in my view is that only the most zealous McCann [ censored word ] would have the time and energy to wade through the mire of those videos. The book, on the other hand is accessible, very readable, and will reach a much wider audience (in one form or another).
So you didn't watch all of them then?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 15, 2014, 10:22:01 PM
Foolish to comment on something you haven't seen. Just goes to prove my point that it's a typical pro McCann apologist stance which does nothing to further your argument. If you didn't watch it then just don't comment, leave it to others who made the effort.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 16, 2014, 08:13:51 AM
Foolish to comment on something you haven't seen. Just goes to prove my point that it's a typical pro McCann apologist stance which does nothing to further your argument. If you didn't watch it then just don't comment, leave it to others who made the effort.
I watched enough of the video that some of you "sceptics" were banging on about as being the best of the four to know that if that was representative of the best, then the rest must truly be dire.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 16, 2014, 08:21:37 AM
I watched enough of the video that some of you "sceptics" were banging on about as being the best of the four to know that if that was representative of the best, then the rest must truly be dire.
THE KEY PARTS OF NUMBER 4 WERE RELEVANT, AND SHOWED DIRECTLY THE CHARADE BEHIND THE SO CALLED PRIVATE INVESTIGATION AGENCY.
%£&)**# %£&)**# %£&)**#
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 16, 2014, 09:54:34 AM
Merciful heavens; isn't it strange how readily "The Posh Street Kids" turn in to Michael Wright in that they never have to read a book or watch a video to know it is/isnt [delete as applicable] rubbish and that "trolls" as they refer to "The Bash Street Kids" who have read / watched [as applicable] are so ESN they always have hold of the wrong end of the stick. Now I wonder?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Bert Singe on September 16, 2014, 10:21:01 AM
Merciful heavens; isn't it strange how readily "The Posh Street Kids" turn in to Michael Wright in that they never have to read a book or watch a video to know it is/isnt [delete as applicable] rubbish and that "trolls" as they refer to "The Bash Street Kids" who have read / watched [as applicable] are so ESN they always have hold of the wrong end of the stick. Now I wonder?
Says it all doesn't it?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 16, 2014, 10:25:57 AM
THE KEY PARTS OF NUMBER 4 WERE RELEVANT, AND SHOWED DIRECTLY THE CHARADE BEHIND THE SO CALLED PRIVATE INVESTIGATION AGENCY.
%£&)**# %£&)**# %£&)**#
Summers and Swann have also touched on some of the private investigators to whom it was necessary for the Drs McCann to have recourse in the search for their daughter. They have produced a fair and balanced take on that particular situation.
I find the hysteria generated in [ censored word ] land by these investigators absolutely extraordinary.
I think it begs the question if they are interested in Madeleine McCann ever being found.
At that time the investigations and searches for Madeleine being undertaken by private investigators were the only active searches in progress.
No one else was looking for Madeleine McCann.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 16, 2014, 10:27:26 AM
Summers and Swann have also touched on some of the private investigators to whom it was necessary for the Drs McCann to have recourse in the search for their daughter. They have produced a fair and balanced take on that particular situation.
I find the hysteria generated in [ censored word ] land by these investigators absolutely extraordinary.
I think it begs the question if they are interested in Madeleine McCann ever being found.
At that time the investigations and searches for Madeleine being undertaken by private investigators were the only active searches in progress.
No one else was looking for Madeleine McCann.
Perhaps they knew it would be a waste of time.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 16, 2014, 11:45:25 AM
Please explain exactly how on earth ... would anyone have known " it would be a waste of time" unless they had a hand in what happened to Madeleine McCann ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: jassi on September 16, 2014, 11:59:30 AM
Perhaps I should have said 'believe', rather than' know' - that's all anyone does, after all.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 16, 2014, 12:23:18 PM
Perhaps I should have said 'believe', rather than' know' - that's all anyone does, after all.
If you have not already read "Looking for Madeleine" and your posts suggest to me you have not, I can thoroughly recommend it to you. It may give you a greater insight into exactly why those who held the "belief" that Madeleine was dead and who unfortunately were also those senior people tasked with looking for her harmed any chance of finding her.
Whatever you or anyone else may think of Madeleine's parents the expediency of trying to make them the perpetrators of crimes against Madeleine shifted the focus of the investigation from her and ultimately allowed that investigation to be aborted prior to any conclusion being reached.
Summers & Swann have highlighted in a matter of fact way the continuing role of Madeleine’s parents in keeping the search for her alive and ongoing until it was taken up again by those who have the power to do what private investigators cannot.
The present investigation is possibly the last chance to discover what happened to Madeleine McCann … the resistance to that is not only extraordinary, IMO it is perverse.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: jassi on September 16, 2014, 01:32:21 PM
If you have not already read "Looking for Madeleine" and your posts suggest to me you have not, I can thoroughly recommend it to you. It may give you a greater insight into exactly why those who held the "belief" that Madeleine was dead and who unfortunately were also those senior people tasked with looking for her harmed any chance of finding her.
Whatever you or anyone else may think of Madeleine's parents the expediency of trying to make them the perpetrators of crimes against Madeleine shifted the focus of the investigation from her and ultimately allowed that investigation to be aborted prior to any conclusion being reached.
Summers & Swann have highlighted in a matter of fact way the continuing role of Madeleine’s parents in keeping the search for her alive and ongoing until it was taken up again by those who have the power to do what private investigators cannot.
The present investigation is possibly the last chance to discover what happened to Madeleine McCann … the resistance to that is not only extraordinary, IMO it is perverse.
What resistance? I see no resistance, merely a scepticism that anything will be achieved.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 16, 2014, 01:36:15 PM
If you have not already read "Looking for Madeleine" and your posts suggest to me you have not, I can thoroughly recommend it to you.
It may give you a greater insight into exactly why those who held the "belief" that Madeleine was dead and who unfortunately were also those senior people tasked with looking for her harmed any chance of finding her.
Whatever you or anyone else may think of Madeleine's parents the expediency of trying to make them the perpetrators of crimes against Madeleine shifted the focus of the investigation from her and ultimately allowed that investigation to be aborted prior to any conclusion being reached.
Summers & Swann have highlighted in a matter of fact way the continuing role of Madeleine’s parents in keeping the search for her alive and ongoing until it was taken up again by those who have the power to do what private investigators cannot.
This is possibly the last chance to discover what happened to Madeleine McCann … the resistance to that is not only extraordinary, IMO it is perverse.
Now prove to me the theory of accidental death in the apartment is any less plausible than the 'abduction' you believe in.
As to the feedback from the book so far, it is one sided.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: jassi on September 16, 2014, 01:43:34 PM
What resistance? I see no resistance, merely a scepticism that anything will be achieved.
The book outlines concerted campaigns which not only express a scepticism from first to last about everything connected to Madeleine McCann's parents efforts to keep her name in the public eye and their campaign for a review which ultimately led to the reopening of the search for her.
To deny that more active efforts have continued for seven years to hinder and obstruct all that Madeleine McCann's parents do, including their efforts for the charity to help missing people and their families, stretches credulity.
There are those whose scepticism is so extreme they go out of their way to ensure nothing will be achieved ... and as far as I am concerned the book was kinder to them and their motivation than was absolutely necessary.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 16, 2014, 01:54:50 PM
Now prove to me the theory of accidental death in the apartment is any less plausible than the 'abduction' you believe in.
As to the feedback from the book so far, it is one sided.
LOL ... some of us actually chose to buy and read the book. The one sided ?? reviewers had the green ink primed before it had hit the bookshelves.
This is a book which rather obviously has disturbed "the troof seekers".
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 16, 2014, 04:23:40 PM
Life's imponderables include: Why do "The Posh Street Kids" become severely agitated when "The Bash Street Kids" quote from "That Book" things which are either omitted or over egged ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 17, 2014, 07:28:19 AM
Anyone know how many books have ben sold?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 17, 2014, 08:23:19 AM
So with the investigation shelved...who else was looking for maddie
Correction. The investigation was not shelved lato sensu, the Inquiry, which is the investigative part of an open criminal case, was archived, so time didn't keep running. As in every country, in Portugal there are timelines for certain crimes (statute of limitation), and when there is nothing to achieve, the best way to ensure those crimes can still be investigated is to archive them, in a legal sense, but not in a police sense. All clues, all information that arrived to PJ was being looked up and maintained in order to get new evidence that could re-open the PROCESS.
Sorry for being out of the topic.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: sadie on September 17, 2014, 04:39:26 PM
I received it Saturday morning as a gift and read it the same day. I thought it gave an easy to follow story of how it all happened without going over the top. We forget that not everyone knows as much of the details, in the Maddie Case as we may do, because of our research and the help of others on this forum. I think this book is a great starter. In fact many people I talk to, have no information at all on the case, except for press releases. I think and hope there will be a follow up book and look forward to it.
Edited for missed words
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 17, 2014, 05:15:52 PM
It's fair to say that the S & S book wasn't written with manic obsessive McCann [ censored word ] pedants in mind, hence why it's such a disappointment in some quarters.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Benice on September 17, 2014, 06:05:44 PM
It's fair to say that the S & S book wasn't written with manic obsessive McCann [ censored word ] pedants in mind, hence why it's such a disappointment in some quarters.
Indeed how remiss of Kate and Gerry not to take notes of street names or to keep a minute by minute log of every move they made - as you would when you were out searching for your child. And why didn't they take their camera and take piccies of everywhere to prove they searched? Although even photographic evidence wouldn't be enough for some folk - as apparently every photograph taken by the McCanns has been photoshopped.
IIRC Diane Webster was there when they left at dawn, and a GNR officer saw them while they were out.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 17, 2014, 06:09:07 PM
Indeed how remiss of Kate and Gerry not to take notes of street names or to keep a minute by minute log of every move they made - as you would when you were out searching for your child. And why didn't they take their camera and take piccies of everywhere to prove they searched? Although even photographic evidence wouldn't be enough for some folk - as apparently every photograph taken by the McCanns has been photoshopped.
IIRC Diane Webster was there when they left at dawn, and a GNR officer saw them while they were out.
The manic obsessive McCann [ censored word ] pedants wouldn't be happy with a book 1000 pages long, with a 1000 page appendix, if the eventual conclusion was that the McCanns didn't dunnit.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 17, 2014, 09:33:03 PM
It is such a shame that the Authors do not know what happened to little Maddie, what is the book about? The Parents? how to spook an abductor? how to catch a criminal?
I love music, I wonder what tune that band was playing on that wagon they jumped onto.
Little Maddie.... those heinous cretins cashing in on her demise. Quite sickening really!
Roobert murdoch cashing in keeping the fantasy story going...
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: xtina on September 18, 2014, 04:25:17 PM
I received it Saturday morning as a gift and read it the same day. I thought it gave an easy to follow story of how it all happened without going over the top. We forget that not everyone knows as much of the details, in the Maddie Case as we may do, because of our research and the help of others on this forum. I think this book is a great starter. In fact many people I talk to, have no information at all on the case, except for press releases. I think and hope there will be a follow up book and look forward to it.
Edited for missed words
Who is it supposed to be directed at though.....its all been said before ...its nothing new ...to those who believe there was an abduction.....and IMO ...the public who don't know the basics ....its because either they are not interested ...or sick to death of the mccs.....
are they to keep the money they make from the book...probably so....so its a sure way of making a dollar or two....because you can bet your bottom dollar it will be only the mcc supporters who will be buying it ...well some ..Will
apparently they wasn't interested in the case as such....it was a comment made by there daughter ...asking how long they would look for her if she had been maddie....IMO ...the $...pinged in their eyes....after all writting books is there business ...there bread and butter.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Anna on September 18, 2014, 04:36:44 PM
Who is it supposed to be directed at though.....its all been said before ...its nothing new ...to those who believe there was an abduction.....and IMO ...the public who don't know the basics ....its because either they are not interested ...or sick to death of the mccs..... are they to keep the money they make from the book...probably so....so its a sure way of making a dollar or two....because you can bet your bottom dollar it will be only the mcc supporters who will be buying it ...well some ..Will
apparently they wasn't interested in the case as such....it was a comment made by there daughter ...asking how long they would look for her if she had been maddie....IMO ...the $...pinged in their eyes....after all writting books is there business ...there bread and butter.
My Granddaughter for one is far too busy with 3 children and a fairly time consuming job, to wade through files. She enjoyed reading the book in bed. I believe all proceeds from the Books that you mention, go to the madeleine fund and thereafter will go to finding Missing children. The money from libel cases go to the same place, but please correct me if you know otherwise
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: xtina on September 18, 2014, 04:59:09 PM
My Granddaughter for one is far too busy with 3 children and a fairly time consuming job, to wade through files. She enjoyed reading the book in bed. I believe all proceeds from the Books that you mention, go to the madeleine fund and thereafter will go to finding Missing children. The money from libel cases go to the same place, but please correct me if you know otherwise
The thing here is though....you said in your earlier post ...its a story of how it happened .....and we don't know how it happened ...do we ...
we can only go from one story but there is another ....your grandaughter is only seeing one side ...that IMO is not fair...G.A. book is also wrote from files yet no one in the UK can buy it as freely...even though it is not banned.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Anna on September 18, 2014, 05:17:06 PM
The thing here is though....you said in your earlier post ...its a story of how it happened .....and we don't know how it happened ...do we ...
we can only go from one story but there is another ....your grandaughter is only seeing one side ...that IMO is not fair...G.A. book is also wrote from files yet no one in the UK can buy it as freely...even though it is not banned.
She has in fact read most of the Amaral book on line and has since decided that it doesn't read true. Anyone can read this. The book as Topic, tells what and where, without casting accusations on anyone, that I can see. Just plain explanations of what has happened to date. What really happened to Madeleine is another thing altogether and unfortunately nobody truly knows what happened to the child. We are all just throwing around possibilities and trying to eliminate from our minds, the least likely of theories.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: xtina on September 18, 2014, 05:38:23 PM
She has in fact read most of the Amaral book on line and has since decided that it doesn't read true. Anyone can read this. The book as Topic, tells what and where, without casting accusations on anyone, that I can see. Just plain explanations of what has happened to date. What really happened to Madeleine is another thing altogether and unfortunately nobody truly knows what happened to the child. We are all just throwing around possibilities and trying to eliminate from our minds, the least likely of theories.
Ah right.....i know the G.A...book can be read on line but not like you mentioned ..like laid in bed at your leisure ....or if you have no access to being on line .....but as you said ...no one really knows what happened...and its wrong the only permitted info at this moment in time is the abduction theory...
but never mind...... i can but hope one day the full truth will be known
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: John on September 20, 2014, 04:03:31 PM
Having not read the majority of the posts on this thread yet, can anyone offer a verdict on this new book?
Is it a load of regurgitated bollocks or full of useful new facts and evidence which will be useful to the police?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Anna on September 20, 2014, 04:21:16 PM
Ah right.....i know the G.A...book can be read on line but not like you mentioned ..like laid in bed at your leisure ....or if you have no access to being on line .....but as you said ...no one really knows what happened...and its wrong the only permitted info at this moment in time is the abduction theory...
but never mind...... i can but hope one day the full truth will be known
I was talking about this new book, that she read in bed. I am in bed now, with a 19" laptop. I have no idea whether she read a part of Amarals book in bed (as she has one of these small tablet type computers) or whether she had a quick look when the kids were abed. I do not know how she read it and it should be of no consequence to you either.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Eleanor on September 20, 2014, 04:37:09 PM
I am in bed on a 13 inch lap top.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: xtina on September 20, 2014, 05:38:46 PM
I was talking about this new book, that she read in bed. I am in bed now, with a 19" laptop. I have no idea whether she read a part of Amarals book in bed (as she has one of these small tablet type computers) or whether she had a quick look when the kids were abed. I do not know how she read it and it should be of no consequence to you either.
it is no consequence to me ....but i think you may have the wrong end of the stick....it was the BOOK of G.A..... that you cannot read in bed or werever......... and that not all have laptops computers or anymeans of reading the book in the UK ....and to me that is wrong ...
because again like you say we don't know what happened ...it should not all be onesided what we read...or should i say allowed to read.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: xtina on September 20, 2014, 05:47:23 PM
it is no consequence to me ....but i think you may have the wrong end of the stick....it was the BOOK of G.A..... that you cannot read in bed or werever......... and that not all have laptops computers or anymeans of reading the book in the UK ....and to me that is wrong ...
because again like you say we don't know what happened ...it should not all be onesided what we read...or should i say allowed to read.
The Summers & Swann book libels no-one; unfortunately Dr Amaral and his publishers are accused of libelling Madeleine McCann's parents and damaging the search for her, we await the judgement of a Portuguese court on that.
Whatever the Portuguese court decides ... and at this rate we will all be dead and gone before that happens ... I doubt that any British publisher would risk publishing unless the book was rewritten to exclude material which would definitely fail the test of a British court and thus generate massive damages.
For example Dr Amaral's interpretation of 'the dog's evidence' would have to go and be replaced by a factual account ... and that is only one of the numerous changes which would have to be effected to make it legal.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 20, 2014, 06:01:10 PM
Having not read the majority of the posts on this thread yet, can anyone offer a verdict on this new book?
Is it a load of regurgitated bollocks or full of useful new facts and evidence which will be useful to the police?
It is neither. It is a level-headed examination of the known facts, presented in an unhysterical, unpartisan way. It doesn't satisfy those with an insatiable desire for new McCann trivia, gossip and speculation, but tough tits (well if you can be vulgar, so can I!)
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 20, 2014, 06:03:03 PM
It is neither. It is a level-headed examination of the known facts, presented in an unhysterical, unpartisan way. It doesn't satisfy those with an insatiable desire for new McCann trivia, gossip and speculation, but tough tits (well if you can be vulgar, so can I!)
' It is a level-headed examination of the known facts, presented in an unhysterical, unpartisan way.'
&%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
Since when is one sided, level headed ??
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 20, 2014, 06:04:19 PM
Perhaps you should place less reliance on reviews from bloggers and buy the book which would enable you to make up your own mind.
Why change the habit of a lifetime though ... people being told what to think by bloggers has been the hallmark of Madeleine's case since 2007.
I know my own mind .....thank you very much................unlike yourself who sees no further than the abduction...because the mccs said there was ........k mcc knew straight away ...yet how long was it before the police were called ....
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Eleanor on September 20, 2014, 06:34:57 PM
If not ... what qualifies you to declare it one sided?
because its about a so called abduction ..................the only thing you are allowed to read in this country.....you are told what you have to think ...thankfully ...some wont be dictated to.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 20, 2014, 07:48:41 PM
I'm afraid brietta , you're not important enough for me to answer the question.
Deja vu, eh ?
That is possibly a witty comment Stephen, pity it is lost on me ... I do not have the faintest idea what you are wittering on about. Nothing new there then.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 20, 2014, 09:37:58 PM
because its about a so called abduction ..................the only thing you are allowed to read in this country.....you are told what you have to think ...thankfully ...some wont be dictated to.
The arrogance of people who pass judgement on a book they have not read is breath taking.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 20, 2014, 09:40:04 PM
Well my dear have you read it? If so how about giving us your considered opinion of it?
I have read it.
Why don't you do likewise then you may be capable of having an informed discussion ... but probably not with me, my dear, because your posting style really does offend.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 20, 2014, 10:00:39 PM
Why don't you do likewise then you may be capable of having an informed discussion ... but probably not with me, my dear, because your posting style really does offend.
I finished last week sometime if you would like to test me on it go ahead luv I am glad it offends it is meant to 8(>((. I would hate to think I am losing my grip.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 20, 2014, 10:28:09 PM
Why don't you do likewise then you may be capable of having an informed discussion ... but probably not with me, my dear, because your posting style really does offend.
Merciful heavens, my dear - do you really think our resident wordsmith is prepared to have any sort of serious discussion (informed or otherwise) with the likes of us McCann apologists? Chance would be a fine thing madam!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 21, 2014, 07:21:43 AM
Merciful heavens, my dear - do you really think our resident wordsmith is prepared to have any sort of serious discussion (informed or otherwise) with the likes of us McCann apologists? Chance would be a fine thing madam!
Well judged sir! I have ologies in sensible discussion, snide remarks , spiteful comments, sarcasm and being offensive in spades. Take yer pick . Oh yes I forgot you do don't you, but somehow never seem to include number one on the list.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 21, 2014, 07:07:37 PM
Have you forgotten a previous post to me ? %£&)**# &%&£(+ %£&)**# &%&£(+
If you refer to a particular series of four videos ... I stated exactly at which proven lie I stopped watching on each ... and commented on that - nothing else.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: John on September 22, 2014, 04:51:22 PM
I particularly like the way the authors tend to quote Grime, in that section, rather than stating what Grime says as if authoritative fact.
They are quite right that Grime was freelance in PdL.
We can't judge whether Grime's claim to be in post at South Yorkshire Police when he wrote his profile is true or not, because his profile is not dated.
I don't know why you continue to promote this inaccuracy ferryman but the truth is both you and the authors are wrong. Martin Grime attended Praia da Luz as a serving police officer having been instructed to do so by South Yorkshire Police.
No doubt this misrepresentation will be of interest to him.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Wonderfulspam on September 22, 2014, 04:52:17 PM
I don't know why you continue to promote this inaccuracy ferryman but the truth is both you and the authors are wrong. Martin Grime attended Praia da Luz as a serving police officer having been instructed to do so by South Yorkshire Police.
I do.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Eleanor on September 22, 2014, 05:00:21 PM
I don't know why you continue to promote this inaccuracy ferryman but the truth is both you and the authors are wrong. Martin Grime attended Praia da Luz as a serving police officer having been instructed to do so by South Yorkshire Police.
No doubt this misrepresentation will be of interest to him.
There is a very fine line on this point, John. Do you know who actually received The Fee?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ferryman on September 22, 2014, 08:12:21 PM
I don't know why you continue to promote this inaccuracy ferryman but the truth is both you and the authors are wrong. Martin Grime attended Praia da Luz as a serving police officer having been instructed to do so by South Yorkshire Police.
No doubt this misrepresentation will be of interest to him.
One fact is beyond dispute (actually, two)
In the official files, Martin Grime gives as his base, his home address in Oxford (naturally, I shan't produce the link, because to give Grime's home address on a public board would be wrong!)
Harrison gives the business address of the (now defunct) National Policing Improvement Agency.
Why is that?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 22, 2014, 08:22:56 PM
of course stealing some one elses intellectual property is just what can be expected of the caliber of TM SUPPORTER posters.
Not good at drawing eh Sadie? "why use words when you can use pictures and colour in as well" said the teacher to primary 6.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 22, 2014, 08:35:38 PM
Thanks for saying what we were all thinking! 8((()*/ 8@??)(
Dearie me ! @)(++(*
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 22, 2014, 08:47:24 PM
I dion't think it is of any consequence how the book is selling...it will have no effect on the investigation but it has promoted the innocence of the mccanns and the more the vigilante facebookers perform then the more publicity the book will get.
As a for your opinion of the authors I think you are totally misguided. You have shown poor analytical skills in as much that you have misunderstood all the evidence...Summers and Swann are spot on with their analysis
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 22, 2014, 09:10:03 PM
Don't worry...Summmers and Swan really are those ace investigators you always thought...It's you that has got everything wrong
Then perhaps you can furnish us with the new evidence they have uncovered in their book Davel ? You know, the facts that are not already in the public domain.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 22, 2014, 09:16:20 PM
Then perhaps you can furnish us with the new evidence they have uncovered in their book Davel ? You know, the facts that are not already in the public domain.
You obviously don't understand...there are no new facts...the old ones put the mccanns in the clear...read the book and they explain the evidence of the dogs...the dna ..everything...as agreed by the archiving report
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 22, 2014, 09:17:30 PM
Shall we let the members read the book and make up their own mind as to what Summers has been Alfred ?
Can you stop pushing your agenda long enough to let that happen ?
You are the one publicly accusing the authors. Your agenda is very clear for all to see. How about just for once putting your money where your mouth is and backing up your accusation with proof?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 22, 2014, 09:23:04 PM
You obviously don't understand...there are no new facts...the old ones put the mccanns in the clear...read the book and they explain the evidence of the dogs...the dna ..everything...as agreed by the archiving report
But the authors boast of extensive research. Are you suggesting they have merely arranged the already accessible facts into an easily read format ? My Davel that is a revelation. It seems you are accusing them of misrepresentation.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 22, 2014, 09:32:12 PM
But the authors boast of extensive research. Are you suggesting they have merely arranged the already accessible facts into an easily read format ? My Davel that is a revelation. It seems you are accusing them of misrepresentation.
Would you say that you have done extensive research on the McCann case?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 22, 2014, 09:36:43 PM
But the authors boast of extensive research. Are you suggesting they have merely arranged the already accessible facts into an easily read format ? My Davel that is a revelation. It seems you are accusing them of misrepresentation.
Extensive research is a subjective phrase...they have carried out what seems to be extensive research...dog's...dna...sedatives...and shown the doubters theories are baseless
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 22, 2014, 09:42:51 PM
Would you say that you have done extensive research on the McCann case?
research Top 1000 frequently used words Line breaks: re|search Pronunciation: /rɪˈsəːtʃ , ˈriːsəːtʃ / NOUN
[MASS NOUN] (also researches) 1The systematic investigation into and study of materials and sources in order to establish facts and reach new conclusions:
Summers has established no facts, merely speculated about the significance of facts which are already in the public domain as we all do and certainly has reached no new conclusions.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 22, 2014, 09:46:36 PM
research Top 1000 frequently used words Line breaks: re|search Pronunciation: /rɪˈsəːtʃ , ˈriːsəːtʃ / NOUN
[MASS NOUN] (also researches) 1The systematic investigation into and study of materials and sources in order to establish facts and reach new conclusions:
Summers has established no facts, merely speculated about the significance of facts which are already in the public domain as we all do and certainly has reached no new conclusions.
Would you say that you have done extensive research into the McCann case?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 22, 2014, 09:49:25 PM
research Top 1000 frequently used words Line breaks: re|search Pronunciation: /rɪˈsəːtʃ , ˈriːsəːtʃ / NOUN
[MASS NOUN] (also researches) 1The systematic investigation into and study of materials and sources in order to establish facts and reach new conclusions:
Summers has established no facts, merely speculated about the significance of facts which are already in the public domain as we all do and certainly has reached no new conclusions.
You don't understand once again...you have quoted what appears to be a definition of scientific research...
research in the a general sense can be research into already known facts that are not generally well known. I could research the life of an historical figure which would not reveal any new facts but would still constitute research...you really are flogging a dead horse.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 22, 2014, 10:03:54 PM
You don't understand once again...you have quoted what appears to be a definition of scientific research...
research in the a general sense can be research into already known facts that are not generally well known. I could research the life of an historical figure which would not reveal any new facts but would still constitute research...you really are flogging a dead horse.
This is what the authors boast :
'Award-winning authors Anthony Summers and Robbyn Swan have produced the first independent, objective account of the case. They have examined the released Portuguese files, conducted in-depth interviews and original research to answer the questions: What can we really know about this most emotive of cases? What can we learn from it? '
Original research, in-depth interviews ? Not in the book I read.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 22, 2014, 10:06:40 PM
Would you say that you have done extensive research into the McCann case?
I have read extensively but if research means cutting and pasting old newspaper articles into a more user-friendly narrative then I guess I have done that too.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 22, 2014, 10:09:33 PM
'Award-winning authors Anthony Summers and Robbyn Swan have produced the first independent, objective account of the case. They have examined the released Portuguese files, conducted in-depth interviews and original research to answer the questions: What can we really know about this most emotive of cases? What can we learn from it? '
Original research, in-depth interviews ? Not in the book I read.
Read your post again and you will see that it is not what the authors boast....the ability to read critically and understand is very important...you seem to be lacking in this area
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 22, 2014, 10:13:00 PM
Read your post again and you will see that it is not what the authors boast....the ability to read critically and understand is very important...you seem to be lacking in this area
So do you feel the publishers have been less than honest on the author’s behalf ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 22, 2014, 10:14:47 PM
I feel that many of your posts are highly innaccurate
Pots kettles and black me dear.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 22, 2014, 11:17:48 PM
I'm doing the exact opposite to propagandising and suggesting the reader decides whether Mr Summers claims of new research, in-depth interviews and original conclusions stands up to scrutiny. I have my opinion of the author's claims but I am inviting the reader to do some real research rather than accept my view. Why do you have a problem with that ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 22, 2014, 11:25:18 PM
I'm doing the exact opposite to propagandising and suggesting the reader decides whether Mr Summers claims of new research, in-depth interviews and original conclusions stands up to scrutiny. I have my opinion of the author's claims but I am inviting the reader to do some real research rather than accept my view. Why do you have a problem with that ?
Rubbish. I have read (most of) the book and I do not share your opinion of the author which is why I am now asking you to explain yourself. You are obviously choosing not to, either because you are scared to or because you simply haven't got any examples from the book - so which is it?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 22, 2014, 11:35:48 PM
In part two of Len Port's interview with Anthony Summers and Robbyn Swan, the authors explain more about the background to their new book Looking for Madeleine, their thoughts on the police investigations so far, and what may now lie ahead in this extraordinary case.
How did you conduct your research? What was the process you followed?
First and foremost, we spent months doing what we have done on our previous eight books, reading all possible available documentation – in many cases a logistic challenge because of the Portuguese language factor. All of this was sorted and allocated and built into a vast chronology. Chronology, carefully assembled, is the key to investigation – whether by law enforcement or non-fiction authors.
When did you come to the conclusion that Kate and Gerry McCann played no part in covering up their daughter’s disappearance and that claims of this are unfounded?
Were we to have to put a date on this current view of ours, we would say it was at the stage a few months ago when – after all the months of analysing the available evidence and testimony – we were finalizing the manuscript.
Can your book be accurately considered as ‘the definitive account’ of this unsolved case?
Note that our publisher has said that the book is “the most definitive account possible.” Possible at this time. We hope and believe that it is exactly the case at this point, as of September 2014. Events yet to occur may change that and – as and when they do – we would hope to update our work.
Your book has been described as ‘a whitewash’ and ‘propaganda,’ and criticism has been levelled at the amount of ‘spin’ it received in the British media before publication? What is your reaction to this?
It is emphatically not a whitewash, whether or not those making the allegations choose to believe it or not. Should they look at the available evidence and testimony, and in turn how we report it in Looking for Madeleine, they will find such allegations untenable. We know of no articles about us or the book that could be called "spin.” There have been news stories based on the information in the book - that is reporting.
*****
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 22, 2014, 11:52:24 PM
In part two of Len Port's interview with Anthony Summers and Robbyn Swan, the authors explain more about the background to their new book Looking for Madeleine, their thoughts on the police investigations so far, and what may now lie ahead in this extraordinary case.
How did you conduct your research? What was the process you followed?
First and foremost, we spent months doing what we have done on our previous eight books, reading all possible available documentation – in many cases a logistic challenge because of the Portuguese language factor. All of this was sorted and allocated and built into a vast chronology. Chronology, carefully assembled, is the key to investigation – whether by law enforcement or non-fiction authors.
When did you come to the conclusion that Kate and Gerry McCann played no part in covering up their daughter’s disappearance and that claims of this are unfounded?
Were we to have to put a date on this current view of ours, we would say it was at the stage a few months ago when – after all the months of analysing the available evidence and testimony – we were finalizing the manuscript.
Can your book be accurately considered as ‘the definitive account’ of this unsolved case?
Note that our publisher has said that the book is “the most definitive account possible.” Possible at this time. We hope and believe that it is exactly the case at this point, as of September 2014. Events yet to occur may change that and – as and when they do – we would hope to update our work.
Your book has been described as ‘a whitewash’ and ‘propaganda,’ and criticism has been levelled at the amount of ‘spin’ it received in the British media before publication? What is your reaction to this?
It is emphatically not a whitewash, whether or not those making the allegations choose to believe it or not. Should they look at the available evidence and testimony, and in turn how we report it in Looking for Madeleine, they will find such allegations untenable. We know of no articles about us or the book that could be called "spin.” There have been news stories based on the information in the book - that is reporting.
Shall we do what the authors suggest in the article and let the reader decide ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 23, 2014, 08:11:06 AM
Shall we do what the authors suggest in the article and let the reader decide ?
Sure, I understand. You're backing down and rather regretting your wild accusations about the author. let the reader decide is a very good idea, one which you should have adopted from the off, rather than poor scorn and ridicule on the book before you'd even read it!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Wonderfulspam on September 23, 2014, 08:42:03 AM
Sure, I understand. You're backing down and rather regretting your wild accusations about the author. let the reader decide is a very good idea, one which you should have adopted from the off, rather than poor scorn and ridicule on the book before you'd even read it!
It's a book about the abduction isn't it, Alf?
Maddie wasn't abducted imo.
Ergo the book is a load of sh*t, it's that simple, Alf.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 23, 2014, 10:23:45 AM
Sure, I understand. You're backing down and rather regretting your wild accusations about the author. let the reader decide is a very good idea, one which you should have adopted from the off, rather than poor scorn and ridicule on the book before you'd even read it!
Let us be clear about this Alfred. I think Mr Summers efforts are a confection of unsubstantiated news articles, self-serving tomes and speculation. There is nothing new in it that isn't already in the public domain for free. He has conducted no new interviews with the main protagonists ( an interview with a friend of a friend who alleges someone entered her apartment just does not cut the mustard at this level ) but what is worse feels that this this has somehow made the book more objective !!!
TBF while the investigation is still ongoing ( notice even Mr Amaral waited until the case was shelved ) Mr Summers was always going to have problems persuading people close to the case to talk but this simply begs the question why not wait until Madeleine's fate is known or the SY/PJ investigations are wound down ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 23, 2014, 11:10:02 AM
Chapter 13 notes re Paiva
KM immediately reacted in a negative manner - what are my parents going to think? what is the press going to say? The Portuguese police is under pressure?
During a telephone call between GM he made reference to the investigation that he was certain that the police did not have any proof that could incriminate them with regards to the death of Madeleine and said they were wasting their time.
The McCanns gradually begun to react in a very negative manner during the use of English sniffer dogs for detecting cadaver odour and the hypothesis of death. Several times they said the attention should be on abduction and continue to investigate Robert Murat.
Strangely after 3 months Kate said twins should be tested for a sedative drug used on the night. A situation Kate refers to being plausible according to what she had read in a criminal investigation manual. This being the procedure of a child's ABDUCTION, RAPE and MURDER.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Moderator on September 23, 2014, 02:00:43 PM
The words dishonest/dishonesty imply a will to deceive and unless this can be proven beyond doubt they should not be used. Acceptable terms would be inaccurate or mistaken or even disingenuous.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Eleanor on September 23, 2014, 02:07:54 PM
The words dishonest/dishonesty imply a will to deceive and unless this can be proven beyond doubt they should not be used. Acceptable terms would be inaccurate or mistaken or even disingenuous.
Thank You for qualifying that. Tis mortal hard sometimes.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on September 23, 2014, 04:12:12 PM
Does Summers and Swan mention the fact that the AG had to shelve the case because the tapas group refused to take part in a reconstitution?
Did they investigate the real reasons why they refused? Were they interviewed?
A definitive account was it?? &%&£(+
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Carana on September 23, 2014, 04:34:32 PM
Does Summers and Swan mention the fact that the AG had to shelve the case because the tapas group refused to take part in a reconstitution?
Did they investigate the real reasons why they refused? Were they interviewed?
A definitive account was it?? &%&£(+
What on earth makes you assume that the case was shelved because the "tapas group" declined to go for a reconstitution? The case had to be concluded one way or another: either to charge one or more of the three arguidos or to shelve it. The time limit had already long run out.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on September 23, 2014, 04:42:11 PM
What on earth makes you assume that the case was shelved because the "tapas group" declined to go for a reconstitution? The case had to be concluded one way or another: either to charge one or more of the three arguidos or to shelve it. The time limit had already long run out.
The AG says so in his archiving report. You cannot be any more definitive then that.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Carana on September 23, 2014, 04:52:51 PM
The AG says so in his archiving report. You cannot be any more definitive then that.
Oh really. Just how definitive do you think that was? Do you understand Definitive?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on September 23, 2014, 05:17:23 PM
I find the lack of detail in the book relating to events prior to the Thursday night concerning. They also wrongly claim that Gerry accompanied Matt to reception the second time when we know that just isn't true. Gerry sent Matt back down but Gerry made his own way there separately. Manager John Hill also arrived there separately and it was he and Gerry who were there when the GNR arrived.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Eleanor on September 23, 2014, 05:26:08 PM
I find the lack of detail in the book relating to events prior to the Thursday night concerning. They also wrongly claim that Gerry accompanied Matt to reception the second time when we know that just isn't true. Gerry sent Matt back down but Gerry made his own way there separately. Manager John Hill also arrived there separately and it was he and Gerry who were there when the GNR arrived.
Thank You. So what is that supposed to mean?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 23, 2014, 05:59:18 PM
Does Summers and Swan mention the fact that the AG had to shelve the case because the tapas group refused to take part in a reconstitution?
Did they investigate the real reasons why they refused? Were they interviewed?
A definitive account was it?? &%&£(+
Summers and Swan do discuss the reconstruction, and explain the reasons why the friends + Jez Wilkins were reluctant to take part. They do not say that the failure to take part was the reason the case was shelved and unless you can provide proof that this was the case I would respectfully suggest that you must be mistaken.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 23, 2014, 06:03:12 PM
I find the lack of detail in the book relating to events prior to the Thursday night concerning. They also wrongly claim that Gerry accompanied Matt to reception the second time when we know that just isn't true. Gerry sent Matt back down but Gerry made his own way there separately. Manager John Hill also arrived there separately and it was he and Gerry who were there when the GNR arrived.
S&S claim Gerry told Matt to go and phone the police when it was Fiona. Fiona and Matt both reveal that in their interviews but S&S conveniently ignore their statements and have used Madeleine as their source. Matt in his rog says he never saw Gerry again after they first split up to search until he arrived at the OC at around 10:40.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 23, 2014, 06:08:12 PM
Summers and Swan do discuss the reconstruction, and explain the reasons why the friends + Jez Wilkins were reluctant to take part. They do not say that the failure to take part was the reason the case was shelved and unless you can provide proof that this was the case I would respectfully suggest that you must be mistaken.
'S and S' are irrelevant.
Just 2 would be investigators making money from a missing child, and who have come up with nothing new, and have not examined all scenarios with equal application.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on September 23, 2014, 06:11:15 PM
A book which claims to be the most definitive available presently must above all contain information which is verifiably correct so if the rest of the book is anything like Chapter two then it fails abysmally to attract any credibility as a serious piece of investigative work. Nil ponts.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on September 23, 2014, 06:28:50 PM
Summers and Swan do discuss the reconstruction, and explain the reasons why the friends + Jez Wilkins were reluctant to take part. They do not say that the failure to take part was the reason the case was shelved and unless you can provide proof that this was the case I would respectfully suggest that you must be mistaken.
I suggest you review Section E of the official archive report Alfred which ends....
We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event; the investigation was also disturbed, because said facts remain unclarified.
www.mccannfiles.com/id136.html
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 23, 2014, 06:33:04 PM
I suggest you review Section E of the official archive report Alfred which ends....
We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event; the investigation was also disturbed, because said facts remain unclarified.
www.mccannfiles.com/id136.html
Can you quote where it says "and because of their failure to take part in the reconstruction we had to shelve the case"?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 23, 2014, 06:37:13 PM
What sort of a tin-pot judicial system stops investigating a suspect because they won't co-operate in an event designed to gather evidence against them?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on September 23, 2014, 06:57:49 PM
I haven't gone off topic Eleanor. We are discussing Summers and Swan and their failure to acknowledge that one of the reasons the investigation had to be shelved was because the tapas group refused to take part in a reconstitution which was essential according to the final police report. Clearly Summers and Swan have a very strange idea of what constitutes impartial investigative journalism.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ferryman on September 23, 2014, 07:01:38 PM
I haven't gone off topic Eleanor. We are discussing Summers and Swan and their failure to acknowledge that one of the reasons the investigation had to be shelved was because the tapas group refused to take part in a reconstitution which was essential according to the final police report. Clearly Summers and Swan have a very strange idea of what constitutes impartial investigative journalism.
Failure to acknowledge?
Without a reconstruction, Scotland Yard shifted the timeline.
Job done!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 23, 2014, 07:07:58 PM
I haven't gone off topic Eleanor. We are discussing Summers and Swan and their failure to acknowledge that one of the reasons the investigation had to be shelved was because the tapas group refused to take part in a reconstitution which was essential according to the final police report. Clearly Summers and Swan have a very strange idea of what constitutes impartial investigative journalism.
And I repeat - what sort of a tin-pot judicial system is it that put the onus on the suspect to solve the case for them, and gives up when they won't co-operate?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on September 23, 2014, 07:08:06 PM
Can you quote where it says "and because of their failure to take part in the reconstruction we had to shelve the case"?
You have to read the Archive Report together with the Final PJ Report. Together they explain that due diligences could not be completed because of a failure by certain parties to collaborate with the investigation.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on September 23, 2014, 07:09:07 PM
And for what its worth Eleanor I am 100% behind you in your decisions. You are very fair, too fair possibly.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 23, 2014, 07:11:45 PM
I haven't gone off topic Eleanor. We are discussing Summers and Swan and their failure to acknowledge that one of the reasons the investigation had to be shelved was because the tapas group refused to take part in a reconstitution which was essential according to the final police report. Clearly Summers and Swan have a very strange idea of what constitutes impartial investigative journalism.
on topic...everyone has their own idea of what impartial means....The book deals with the known facts and dispels lots of myths...they show that the dogs alerts do not prove anything...maddie's dna was not found in the car. On the whole it is extremely supportive of the mccanns...that's because the evidence supports their innocence. This makes them very unpopular with those who have completely misunderstood the evidence and think the mccanns are in some way implicated
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on September 23, 2014, 07:21:28 PM
And once more - what sort of a tin-pot judicial system is it that put the onus on the suspect to solve the case for them, and gives up when they won't co-operate?
Some have claimed that the designation of arguido Murat some 4 months prior to the change in the law had a part to play in what eventually happened. Under the new rules, after a period of 14 months had elapsed ( 8 + two 3 month extensions max) the AG had to accuse or archive the case. So 14 months after having been designated as arguido, Murat was released as was Kate and Gerry McCann.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 23, 2014, 07:21:40 PM
on topic...everyone has their own idea of what impartial means....The book deals with the known facts and dispels lots of myths...they show that the dogs alerts do not prove anything...maddie's dna was not found in the car. On the whole it is extremely supportive of the mccanns...that's because the evidence supports their innocence. This makes them very unpopular with those who have completely misunderstood the evidence and think the mccanns are in some way implicated
Funnily enough I think the book is quite neutral about the McCanns themselves - it doesn't paint them as wonderful, admirable people, or as bad, neglectful parents. It does however support fully the theory that Madeleine was abducted which is understandable when one reads and understands all the facts presented.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 23, 2014, 07:23:05 PM
Some have claimed that the designation of arguido Murat some 4 months prior to the change in the law had a part to play in what eventually happened. Under the new rules, after a period of 14 months had elapsed ( 8 + two 3 month extensions max) the AG had to accuse or archive the case. So 14 months after having been designated an arguido Murat was released.
So, where does that leave your contention that it was the failure to the McCanns to take part in a reconstruction that forced the shelving of the enquiry?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 23, 2014, 07:25:01 PM
Now is there any truth in this I wonder ?
'...........the book's sales figures have actually gone into reverse, with 2 sales and 18 customers asking for a refund. Its current world ranking is now 556,462 having just been overtaken by a sudden surge in popularity by new entry, "Cannibalism For Dummies"...........'
Some things you can't make up.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on September 23, 2014, 07:26:26 PM
on topic...everyone has their own idea of what impartial means....The book deals with the known facts and dispels lots of myths...they show that the dogs alerts do not prove anything...maddie's dna was not found in the car. On the whole it is extremely supportive of the mccanns...that's because the evidence supports their innocence. This makes them very unpopular with those who have completely misunderstood the evidence and think the mccanns are in some way implicated
Summers and Swan like you ignore the crucial fact that only McCann related possessions and the apartment they were in with Maddie returned positive dog alerts. Tell me, what evidence supports their innocence because this is one point that the AG emphasised in his report. He stated the McCanns were unable to prove what they had clamed and their innocence towards the fateful event.
AG. We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event; the investigation was also disturbed, because said facts remain unclarified.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 23, 2014, 07:27:16 PM
So, where does that leave your contention that it was the failure to the McCanns to take part in a reconstruction that forced the shelving of the enquiry?
I think what Angelo means is that had the tapas carried out the reconstruction the PJ may have been able to find some inconsistencies to build a case against the mccanns . They could then have charged them and would not have had to shelve the case.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 23, 2014, 07:29:33 PM
Summers and Swan like you ignore the crucial fact that only McCann related possessions and the apartment they were in with Maddie returned positive dog alerts.
See what I mean about not understanding the evidence...what do you think these alerts indicated?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on September 23, 2014, 07:35:29 PM
Summers and Swan like you ignore the crucial fact that only McCann related possessions and the apartment they were in with Maddie returned positive dog alerts. Tell me, what evidence supports their innocence because this is one point that the AG emphasised in his report. He stated the McCanns were unable to prove what they had clamed and their innocence towards the fateful event.
AG. We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event; the investigation was also disturbed, because said facts remain unclarified.
No they don't.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on September 23, 2014, 07:47:53 PM
Well they conveniently ignored it then because that fact alone is grounds for suspicion regardless of what the dog alerts do or do not prove.
The dogs only alerted in apartment 5a (McCanns), to McCanns hire car and no other vehicle and to their clothing. Strange don't you think ??
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 23, 2014, 07:55:39 PM
All tin pot and non tin pot justice systems require access to those who were last with the 'victim', they also want to establish a time line of events to ascertain when and how a 'crime' has taken place.
It is so boring, I know, but it is important to get the facts! And funny this> but in this country the police actually question innocent people all the time, they call it 'investigating' .
And, on this occcasion they go to Portugal to question innocent people as well...ahh snot fare I hear you cry.
This book is a cash converter...
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 23, 2014, 07:57:24 PM
Well they conveniently ignored it then because that fact alone is grounds for suspicion regardless of what the dog alerts do or do not prove.
The dogs only alerted in apartment 5a (McCanns), to McCanns hire car and no other vehicle and to their clothing. Strange don't you think ??
They don't ignore it - they say that the dogs only alerted to the McCanns stuff. It is very suspicious I agree, but not for the reason you think. What the authors do point out very well is how inexact the art of the cadaver dog is, and how an alert simply cannot be relied upon without corroborating evidence - and in this case there was none, no matter how hard the PJ and the doubters tried to pretend there was.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on September 23, 2014, 07:57:52 PM
I also note that Chapter 2 is riddled with selective quotes which sway towards abduction at the expense of any other alternative. Some refer to this as dishonest but I prefer to believe it is merely a sign of their non impartiality.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 23, 2014, 07:59:45 PM
I also note that Chapter 2 is riddled with selective quotes which sway towards abduction at the expense of any other alternative. Some refer to this as dishonest but I prefer to believe it is merely a sign of their non impartiality.
Can you give us some examples of this non impartiality?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on September 23, 2014, 08:00:56 PM
They don't ignore it - they say that the dogs only alerted to the McCanns stuff. It is very suspicious I agree, but not for the reason you think. What the authors do point out very well is how inexact the art of the cadaver dog is, and how an alert simply cannot be relied upon without corroborating evidence - and in this case there was none, no matter how hard the PJ and the doubters tried to pretend there was.
Certainly not a factor in determining innocence but then Summers and Swan appear to have a one track mind where that is concerned.
Did Summer and Swan not think the lying prostrate on the ground incidents worthy of note?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 23, 2014, 08:06:30 PM
Why do you think Summers and Swan are of the view that Madeleine was abducted?
Tell me Alfred do you think the authors would have been able to sell a book in this country which suggested complicity by the McCanns in Madeleine's disappearance ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 23, 2014, 08:12:22 PM
Why did they not analyse the accidental death scenario in any quantitative way ?
how do you know they didn't....it would soon be shown to be a non starter...they didn't discuss alien abduction either... I bet the aliens are really angry
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on September 23, 2014, 08:13:08 PM
Tell me Alfred do you think the authors would have been able to sell a book in this country which suggested complicity by the McCanns in Madeleine's disappearance ?
If they had phrased things carefully they certainly would...they would not be able to tell lies and misrepresent the evidence which is what happens on many web sites
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 23, 2014, 08:15:09 PM
If they had phrased things carefully they certainly would...they would not be able to tell lies and misrepresent the evidence which is what happens on many web sites
A brief reminder, the nature of the crime is unknown.
Options are therefore open.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 23, 2014, 08:15:47 PM
Why did they not analyze the accidental death scenario in any quantitative way ?
IMO..
... because they wrongly thought a sea of people were sympathetic to the parents and the abduction story....IF they had a theory of their own and wrote about it- it would worth reading and pondering.
As I Mentioned: band wagon and jumping on it come to mind with these two.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 23, 2014, 08:17:14 PM
A brief reminder, the nature of the crime is unknown.
Options are therefore open.
don't need a reminder...they would have to be careful saying anything that wasn't true. They could not say that the dog's alerted to cadaver odour because that has not been confirmed.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on September 23, 2014, 08:27:05 PM
Oh just remembered before I go, Summers and Swan make no reference to the McCanns losing the libel case on appeal or the fact that they are seeking damages in a trial which is still ongoing.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 23, 2014, 08:32:14 PM
don't need a reminder...they would have to be careful saying anything that wasn't true. They could not say that the dog's alerted to cadaver odour because that has not been confirmed.
They dismissed the dogs.
Now since the result of the forensic examinations were inconclusive, it has never discounted that Madeleine died in the apartment. Has it ?
and let's not forget, there's absolutely nothing to prove an abduction at all, but a pair of amateur detectives are quite happy to fall into the mccann line there. &%+((£
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 23, 2014, 08:37:52 PM
Oh just remembered before I go, Summers and Swan make no reference to the McCanns losing the libel case on appeal or the fact that they are seeking damages in a trial which is still ongoing.
Now you are showing your ignorance... the libel case has not been decided...
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 23, 2014, 08:39:14 PM
Oh just remembered before I go, Summers and Swan make no reference to the McCanns losing the libel case on appeal or the fact that they are seeking damages in a trial which is still ongoing.
How can you seek damages after losing a libel case?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 23, 2014, 08:41:35 PM
Tell me Alfred do you think the authors would have been able to sell a book in this country which suggested complicity by the McCanns in Madeleine's disappearance ?
Well according to you they've only sold 25 books supporting the abduction theory. If they'd written a scurrilous anti-McCann diatribe full of swinging allegations and Gaspar statement etc they could have sold thousands worldwide, if not in this country. America would have lapped it up as would Portugal.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 23, 2014, 08:41:53 PM
Now you are showing your ignorance... the libel case has not been decided...
Now that's funny, because not that long ago, you were saying it was.
Or has that slipped from your memory ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 23, 2014, 08:43:14 PM
Now you tell me Faithlilly, is it inconceivable in your view that 2 intelligent people after doing extensive research on the case would come to the view that the McCanns played no part in their child's disappearance?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 23, 2014, 08:46:33 PM
Well according to you they've only sold 25 books supporting the abduction theory. If they'd written a scurrilous anti-McCann diatribe full of swinging allegations and Gaspar statement etc they could have sold thousands worldwide, if not in this country. America would have lapped it up as would Portugal.
Have another try Alfred. You never know you might even manage to answer my original question.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 23, 2014, 08:50:00 PM
Now you tell me Faithlilly, is it inconceivable in your view that 2 intelligent people after doing extensive research on the case would come to the view that the McCanns played no part in their child's disappearance?
If you want to make money from Madeleine's disappearance in this country you have to toe the McCann party line. The authors being intelligent people would know that.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 23, 2014, 09:00:16 PM
If you want to make money from Madeleine's disappearance in this country you have to toe the McCann party line. The authors being intelligent people would know that.
Now, how about you actually answer my question for a change?!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 23, 2014, 09:13:37 PM
If you re-read what I wrote you will see that I did answer your question. And as you swerve all my more taxing questions you really have some nerve!
I asked whether you thought the authors would have been able to sell a book in this country that suggested that the McCanns are complicit in their daughter's disappearance ? Of course you don't have to answer if you'd rather not.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Moderator on September 23, 2014, 09:34:39 PM
I asked whether you thought the authors would have been able to sell a book in this country that suggested that the McCanns are complicit in their daughter's disappearance ? Of course you don't have to answer if you'd rather not.
That of course is the reason why a truly definitive book has not yet been written. Until such time as there is proof as to what really happened to Madeleine all we have is suspicions and speculation.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 23, 2014, 09:59:57 PM
I asked whether you thought the authors would have been able to sell a book in this country that suggested that the McCanns are complicit in their daughter's disappearance ? Of course you don't have to answer if you'd rather not.
Well according to you they've only sold 25 books supporting the abduction theory. If they'd written a scurrilous anti-McCann diatribe full of swinging allegations and Gaspar statement etc they could have sold thousands worldwide, if not in this country. America would have lapped it up as would Portugal.
Now, are you going to answer my question or not?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 23, 2014, 10:07:30 PM
Well according to you they've only sold 25 books supporting the abduction theory. If they'd written a scurrilous anti-McCann diatribe full of swinging allegations and Gaspar statement etc they could have sold thousands worldwide, if not in this country. America would have lapped it up as would Portugal.
Now, are you going to answer my question or not?
Stevo actually wrote the book you describe...how many did he sell?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 23, 2014, 10:12:15 PM
Well according to you they've only sold 25 books supporting the abduction theory. If they'd written a scurrilous anti-McCann diatribe full of swinging allegations and Gaspar statement etc they could have sold thousands worldwide, if not in this country. America would have lapped it up as would Portugal.
Now, are you going to answer my question or not?
Pat Brown wrote her book in America. Her book was withdrawn by Amazon due to pressure from the McCanns. Amaral wrote his book for sale in Portugal. He is now embroiled in a libel case instigated by the McCanns.
So it seems you can cross America and Portugal off of your list.
And I will rephrase my question. Would Summers be able to sell a book suggesting the McCanns were complicit in their daughter's disappearance anywhere in the western world without facing legal action ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 23, 2014, 10:21:12 PM
Pat Brown wrote her book in America. Her book was withdrawn by Amazon due to pressure from the McCanns. Amaral wrote his book for sale in Portugal. He is now embroiled in a libel case instigated by the McCanns.
So it seems you can cross America and Portugal off of your list.
And I will rephrase my question. Would Summers be able to sell a book suggesting the McCanns were complicit in their daughter's disappearance anywhere in the western world without facing legal action ?
I'm not answering anymore of your questions until you have the courtesy to actually answer one of mine for a change.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 23, 2014, 10:23:32 PM
That of course is the reason why a truly definitive book has not yet been written. Until such time as there is proof as to what really happened to Madeleine all we have is suspicions and speculation.
Yer, well. There you go.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: sadie on September 24, 2014, 06:06:55 AM
Best he can ever do is question, because he cannot explain.
To expect logic from people who support parents who neglected their children, and then spent the best part of 7 years blaming others for what they failed to do, and anyone who really tried to solve the crime.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 24, 2014, 08:09:26 AM
Pat Brown wrote her book in America. Her book was withdrawn by Amazon due to pressure from the McCanns. Amaral wrote his book for sale in Portugal. He is now embroiled in a libel case instigated by the McCanns.
So it seems you can cross America and Portugal off of your list.
And I will rephrase my question. Would Summers be able to sell a book suggesting the McCanns were complicit in their daughter's disappearance anywhere in the western world without facing legal action ?
Quite simply..they could if the evidence supported them..
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 24, 2014, 08:10:30 AM
Quite simply..they could if the evidence supported them..
Yet they spout a theory when no evidence, let alone proof has been produced to show ANYONE other than than the mccanns or their associates entered the apartment.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 24, 2014, 08:15:59 AM
Quite simply..they could if the evidence supported them..
The fact is, both these crappy tomes are still available to purchase in their respective authors' home countries. As far as I can see there is little the McCanns or Carter-Ruck can do to stop the sale of a book full of unevidenced speculation and distorted facts in either America or Portugal. I'm sure if Summers and Swan had to come to the conclusion that the McCanns dunnit, they would have got away with publishing such a book in both countries.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 24, 2014, 10:17:25 AM
The fact is, both these crappy tomes are still available to purchase in their respective authors' home countries. As far as I can see there is little the McCanns or Carter-Ruck can do to stop the sale of a book full of unevidenced speculation and distorted facts in either America or Portugal. I'm sure if Summers and Swan had to come to the conclusion that the McCanns dunnit, they would have got away with publishing such a book in both countries.
What a disingenuous answer.
The McCanns have used every legal tool at their disposal to stop the sale of both books and it is further suspected that Amaral's book was targeted for litigation at the time it was because he was looking for a publisher in the UK. Now I have heard you supporters say that he would never have found a publisher here willing to publish his accusations of guilt so what makes you think Summers and wife would be any different ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 24, 2014, 11:38:34 AM
The McCanns have used every legal tool at their disposal to stop the sale of both books and it is further suspected that Amaral's book was targeted for litigation at the time it was because he was looking for a publisher in the UK. Now I have heard you supporters say that he would never have found a publisher here willing to publish his accusations of guilt so what makes you think Summers and wife would be any different ?
Firstly, I wasn't answering you, my post was to Davel, so nothing disingenuous there. Secondly, I have already conceded that Summers and Swan would not get a McCann sceptic book published in this country, but would probably have far more success doing so in America and Portugal, both places where you can freely purchase the crappy tomes of Brown and Amaral. Now, how about you answer this: is it inconceivable to you that two intelligent and well-respected authors could thoroughly research this case and sincerely and genuinely come to the conclusion that the McCanns had no hand in their chid's disappearance? Or do you think that only the fearful, mendacious and / or moneygrabbing could ever possibly hold that view?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 24, 2014, 11:52:08 AM
Faithlilly doesn't do answering questions, Alfred. Not unless she can twist it to her advantage
Didn't you know?
Absolutely correct, Sadie, I gave up going in circles some time ago and don’t feel I have missed out on a thing.
It is quite remarkable that to date no-one has quoted chapter and verse any glaring inaccuracies in the book. Personal attacks on the authors don't quite cut it.
I am sure were there the slightest cause for complaint it would have been leapt on with glee.
From my reading of it I consider some deeply held myths have been debunked in a matter of fact way … I note that no one has taken up the quill to defend the position on any of that.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 24, 2014, 12:03:59 PM
Absolutely correct, Sadie, I gave up going in circles some time ago and don’t feel I have missed out on a thing.
It is quite remarkable that to date no-one has quoted chapter and verse any glaring inaccuracies in the book. Personal attacks on the authors don't quite cut it.
I am sure were there the slightest cause for complaint it would have been leapt on with glee.
From my reading of it I consider some deeply held myths have been debunked in a matter of fact way … I note that no one has taken up the quill to defend the position on any of that.
Yes, it would be very interesting to read a concise, non-puerile rebuttal of the salient points in the Summers & Swan book, written by an intelligent "sceptic" (if that's not an oxymoron!) but I shan't be holding my breath for such a thing to materialize.
NB: The pretendy scientist's piss-poor blog on the book is simply not worth serious attention.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 24, 2014, 12:05:05 PM
Firstly, I wasn't answering you, my post was to Davel, so nothing disingenuous there. Secondly, I have already conceded that Summers and Swan would not get a McCann sceptic book published in this country, but would probably have far more success doing so in America and Portugal, both places where you can freely purchase the crappy tomes of Brown and Amaral. Now, how about you answer this: is it inconceivable to you that two intelligent and well-respected authors could thoroughly research this case and sincerely and genuinely come to the conclusion that the McCanns had no hand in their chid's disappearance? Or do you think that only the fearful, mendacious and / or moneygrabbing could ever possibly hold that view?
There are only two countries where there is a supposedly large market for a book about this case, the UK and Portugal. As we have seen with Amaral's book the long, litigious arm of the McCanns certainly extends to there. America, while a feasible location for publication, don't seem particularly interested in the case, a factor I'm sure the authors are aware of.
And in answer to your question what is inconceivable to me is that two intelligent and well respected journalists could thoroughly research this case and not come to the conclusion that the McCanns still have questions to answer about the disappearance of their daughter.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 24, 2014, 12:09:43 PM
Yes, it would be very interesting to read a concise, non-puerile rebuttal of the salient points in the Summers & Swan book, written by an intelligent "sceptic" (if that's not an oxymoron!) but I shan't be holding my breath for such a thing to materialize.
NB: The pretendy scientist's piss-poor blog on the book is simply not worth serious attention.
No need Alfred. The buying public have voted with their wallets.
It's only you and your ilk still trying to pretend this book is anything other than a badly researched, litigation-averse, disingenuous cut and paste job.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 24, 2014, 12:13:27 PM
No need Alfred. The buying public have voted with their wallets.
It's only you and your ilk still trying to pretend this book is anything other than a badly researched, litigation-averse, disingenuous cut and paste job.
Well said Faithlilly.
8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 24, 2014, 12:15:30 PM
There are only two countries where there is a supposedly large market for a book about this case, the UK and Portugal. As we have seen with Amaral's book the long, litigious arm of the McCanns certainly extends to there. America, while a feasible location for publication, don't seem particularly interested in the case, a factor I'm sure the authors are aware of.
And in answer to your question what is inconceivable to me is that two intelligent and well respected journalists could thoroughly research this case and not come to the conclusion that the McCanns still have questions to answer about the disappearance of their daughter.
If there was no interest in the case of Madeleine McCann in America it would not have attracted the attention of the likes of Oprah and Vanity Fair magazine, and to a lesser extent those other American meeja whores that we are so familiar with.
I notice you STILL duck my question. But, to humour you - why not put together a list of questions you think Summers and Swan should have identified that the McCanns need to answer (not that they need to answer to anyone, least of all to "sceptics" like you!)
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 24, 2014, 12:18:08 PM
No need Alfred. The buying public have voted with their wallets.
It's only you and your ilk still trying to pretend this book is anything other than a badly researched, litigation-averse, disingenuous cut and paste job.
Can you give us some examples of how the book is badly-researched? So, a list of all the glaring errors you have identified as a result of this poor research, plus a list of all the disingenuous misinformation, in your own time please.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Wonderfulspam on September 24, 2014, 12:20:32 PM
Can you give us some examples of how the book is badly-researched? So, a list of all the glaring errors you have identified as a result of this poor research, plus a list of all the disingenuous misinformation, in your own time please.
Yeah, go on Alf, keep digging at Faith.
Deckchairs.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 24, 2014, 02:39:39 PM
Yes, it would be very interesting to read a concise, non-puerile rebuttal of the salient points in the Summers & Swan book, written by an intelligent "sceptic" (if that's not an oxymoron!) but I shan't be holding my breath for such a thing to materialize.
NB: The pretendy scientist's piss-poor blog on the book is simply not worth serious attention.
I followed the link ... and if people are content to have their intelligence insulted by such an obvious deceit- that is entirely their own decision. I cannot understand why people allow their opinions to be manipulated by someone telling them what to think. Why not just buy the book ... read it ... and make up their own minds?
Why is it necessary that someone reads it for them ... then tells them what to think? Extraordinary behaviour.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 24, 2014, 02:57:07 PM
Oh the irony !!! @)(++(*
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: John on September 24, 2014, 03:08:01 PM
In the official files, Martin Grime gives as his base, his home address in Oxford (naturally, I shan't produce the link, because to give Grime's home address on a public board would be wrong!)
Harrison gives the business address of the (now defunct) National Policing Improvement Agency.
Why is that?
We have just had a response to this question from the man himself and he states categorically that he was a police officer with South Yorkshire Police when he was deployed to Praia da Luz. He adds that this was with the full support of the then Chief Constable.
If Summers and Swan cannot even get the basics right what else have they got wrong?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 24, 2014, 03:12:11 PM
We have just had a response to this question from the man himself and he states categorically that he was a police officer with South Yorkshire Police when he was deployed to Praia da Luz. He adds that this was with the full support of the then Chief Constable.
If Summers and Swan cannot even get the basics right what else have they got wrong?
Thank you John for putting that particular piece of misinformation to bed.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 24, 2014, 03:20:12 PM
We have just had a response to this question from the man himself and he states categorically that he was a police officer with South Yorkshire Police when he was deployed to Praia da Luz. He adds that this was with the full support of the then Chief Constable.
If Summers and Swan cannot even get the basics right what else have they got wrong?
What do they say to the contrary? Page reference please.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 24, 2014, 03:38:21 PM
I followed the link ... and if people are content to have their intelligence insulted by such an obvious deceit- that is entirely their own decision. I cannot understand why people allow their opinions to be manipulated by someone telling them what to think. Why not just buy the book ... read it ... and make up their own minds?
Why is it necessary that someone reads it for them ... then tells them what to think? Extraordinary behaviour.
Because the blog author is obviously very worried by the book and its contents, as it makes it extremely clear that abduction is the only logical theory as to what happened to Madeleine. It's why it's caused such a stink in Scepticland. The conclusions of the book are irrefutable, try as they might to pick little holes in the finer detail.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: John on September 24, 2014, 03:41:27 PM
I particularly like the way the authors tend to quote Grime, in that section, rather than stating what Grime says as if authoritative fact.
They are quite right that Grime was freelance in PdL.
We can't judge whether Grime's claim to be in post at South Yorkshire Police when he wrote his profile is true or not, because his profile is not dated.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 24, 2014, 03:51:01 PM
Because the blog author is obviously very worried by the book and its contents, as it makes it extremely clear that abduction is the only logical theory as to what happened to Madeleine. It's why it's caused such a stink in Scepticland. The conclusions of the book are irrefutable, try as they might to pick little holes in the finer detail.
Interesting that the 'little holes in the finer detail' are all to the McCanns benefit.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 24, 2014, 04:00:17 PM
Interesting that the 'little holes in the finer detail' are all to the McCanns benefit.
That's because the McCanns are not under suspicion as regards the disappearance of Maddie. I would have thougyt that if they were under suspicion the Portuguese would have wanted to interview them and it appears they haven't
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 24, 2014, 04:03:25 PM
That's because the McCanns are not under suspicion as regards the disappearance of Maddie. I would have thougyt that if they were under suspicion the Portuguese would have wanted to interview them and it appears they haven't
And you know this how ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Wonderfulspam on September 24, 2014, 04:04:37 PM
That's because the McCanns are not under suspicion as regards the disappearance of Maddie. I would have thougyt that if they were under suspicion the Portuguese would have wanted to interview them and it appears they haven't
Of course SY have re interviewed them though haven't they
When was that again?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 24, 2014, 04:05:55 PM
So what difference does it make to the McCanns if Grime was freelance or worked for South Yorks police?
Come now Alfred, don't be coy. It has been suggested by supporters that Grime used his time in PDL to drum up trade for his fledgling freelance business. This argument would be a nonsense if, as has now been verified, he was a serving police officer at the time.
Of course I'm sure you'd never be as silly, would you ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 24, 2014, 04:27:35 PM
Come now Alfred, don't be coy. It has been suggested by supporters that Grime used his time in PDL to drum up trade for his fledgling freelance business. This argument would be a nonsense if, as has now been verified, he was a serving police officer at the time.
Of course I'm sure you'd never be as silly, would you ?
And this would have a bearing on the McCanns' guilt or innocence how exactly? A) Did S & S actually state that Grime was "freelance" in their book B) if they did, did they draw any inference from this and if so, C) what was it? Come on, you keep telling us the book is full of mendacious, McCann-favouring misinformation, let's see some actual evidence of this!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 24, 2014, 04:28:43 PM
Come now Alfred, don't be coy. It has been suggested by supporters that Grime used his time in PDL to drum up trade for his fledgling freelance business. This argument would be a nonsense if, as has now been verified, he was a serving police officer at the time.
Of course I'm sure you'd never be as silly, would you ?
Grime knew he would shortly be turning freelance...same argument applies. The only nonsense is that some believe that the alerts confirm a dead body previously in 5a
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: John on September 24, 2014, 04:42:05 PM
Grime knew he would shortly be turning freelance...same argument applies. The only nonsense is that some believe that the alerts confirm a dead body previously in 5a
That's untrue and wholly disingenuous Dave. Martin was undecided as to retirement when he was deployed to PdL, it was other factors which made up his mind for him. He was not to know how the events were to be played out in the town, after all, he was only following instructions.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 24, 2014, 05:14:20 PM
I've just finished the book. I found it to be fair, factual and objective but ultimately a disappointment because it didn't really reveal anything we didn't already know. The authors by their own admission had their hands somewhat tied by the on-going investigation and I agree with those who have said it would have been better to hold off publication until after the investigation is completed, so that interviews with the key protagonists could have taken place. I hope the authors do re-visit the case as and when the case has been solved or closed as I think they will do a great job tying everything together. In the meantime there is no doubt that this book is the most definitive, unbiased book currently available about the disappearance of Madeleine.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 24, 2014, 05:28:36 PM
I've just finished the book. I found it to be fair, factual and objective but ultimately a disappointment because it didn't really reveal anything we didn't already know. The authors by their own admission had their hands somewhat tied by the on-going investigation and I agree with those who have said it would have been better to hold off publication until after the investigation is completed, so that interviews with the key protagonists could have taken place. I hope the authors do re-visit the case as and when the case has been solved or closed as I think they will do a great job tying everything together. In the meantime there is no doubt that this book is the most definitive, unbiased book currently available about the disappearance of Madeleine.
I thought I would find it strange to be reading a book about which I already knew much of the source material; but I didn’t and I found my interest was maintained from first to last so I would say from that it is well written.
I disagree that they should have waited, although obviously it would have enhanced their writing.
I think this is the optimum time to inform and remind people of the case who are not as well informed on the subject matter as we.
Unfortunately I can see this investigation perhaps stretching beyond the General Election and there will be people making a lot of noise to try to derail what the Met are doing. I think reference to the information contained in this book by a wider audience can perhaps help to circumvent that.
Agree with everything else though.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 24, 2014, 05:40:38 PM
I thought I would find it strange to be reading a book about which I already knew much of the source material; but I didn’t and I found my interest was maintained from first to last so I would say from that it is well written.
I disagree that they should have waited, although obviously it would have enhanced their writing.
I think this is the optimum time to inform and remind people of the case who are not as well informed on the subject matter as we.
Unfortunately I can see this investigation perhaps stretching beyond the General Election and there will be people making a lot of noise to try to derail what the Met are doing. I think reference to the information contained in this book by a wider audience can perhaps help to circumvent that.
Agree with everything else though.
Well-written definitely. Still waiting for a list from a "sceptic" of all the disingenuous and misleading and factually incorrect information contained in it!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Montclair on September 24, 2014, 06:31:57 PM
Grime knew he would shortly be turning freelance...same argument applies. The only nonsense is that some believe that the alerts confirm a dead body previously in 5a
The only nonsense is that someone would not believe that the dog alerted to the presence of a cadaver! What's the use of training dogs to alert to cadaver odour if people are not going to believe them? I am sure that you have always thought that these dogs were wonderful until their alerts pointed to the McCanns.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 24, 2014, 06:40:35 PM
It is quite fascinating to observe the rampant support of a book which has found nothing new, merely rehashes old files, and selectively uses information to support the 'abduction' thesis.
..and let's not forget it is there to make money, and how often is that charge thrown at Amaral by the mccann supporters, but of course they excuse their heroes the mccanns for doing exactly the same thing.
So the hypocrisy of team mccann and their devout followers is absolute.
However, this time the book sales are deservedly where they belong in the dustbin, and inevitably going to the 99p shop.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 24, 2014, 07:26:43 PM
The only nonsense is that someone would not believe that the dog alerted to the presence of a cadaver! What's the use of training dogs to alert to cadaver odour if people are not going to believe them? I am sure that you have always thought that these dogs were wonderful until their alerts pointed to the McCanns.
I think the dogs are incredible...the alerts do not point at the mccanns
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 24, 2014, 07:38:02 PM
The dogs INDICATIONS do not discount the presence of a body.
The forensics were inconclusive,no more no less.
There is nothing on the table other than this.
FACT.
when will you realise its whats found that's important ..not what is not found. Your post shows just how little you understand how we use evidence to reach conclusions
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 24, 2014, 08:14:25 PM
when will you realise its whats found that's important ..not what is not found. Your post shows just how little you understand how we use evidence to reach conclusions
What you don't get, no matter how many times you are told, along with your fellows, is that there is NOTHING top prove there was anyone else in the apartment, but the mccanns or their associates.
The rest is just hot air.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 24, 2014, 09:22:39 PM
The Summers and Swan book is pure hyperbole and going absolutely nowhere, just like the SY investigation.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Anna on September 24, 2014, 10:08:57 PM
The Summers and Swan book is pure hyperbole and going absolutely nowhere, just like the SY investigation.
And you are pleased that our money may be going down the drain with the investigation, which you say is going nowhere? as is the money that should have been earned by these authors ……What have they ever done to harm you? I don’t understand all the vile comments being made about these authors……………….It’s just a book, after all …..You can take it or leave it.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 24, 2014, 10:20:09 PM
And you are pleased that our money may be going down the drain with the investigation, which you say is going nowhere? as is the money that should have been earned by these authors ……What have they ever done to harm you? I don’t understand all the vile comments being made about these authors……………….It’s just a book, after all …..You can take it or leave it.
Anna do you feel that if the authors have nothing new to say it is ethical to be making money from the misfortune of a small child ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 24, 2014, 10:51:08 PM
Anna do you feel that if the authors have nothing new to say it is ethical to be making money from the misfortune of a small child ?
To a lot of people who do not spend most of the day on the net following the case..including me...the book brings a lot of new information...no one criticised them for making money out of the death of Kennedy. You are just really angry that two authors who you respected support the mccanns
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 24, 2014, 11:03:45 PM
To a lot of people who do not spend most of the day on the net following the case..including me...the book brings a lot of new information...no one criticised them for making money out of the death of Kennedy. You are just really angry that two authors who you respected support the mccanns
More disappointed than angry Davel but not that the authors support the McCanns but that they have shown utter contempt not only for their readers but for the fate of a small child.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 24, 2014, 11:05:11 PM
More disappointed than angry Davel but not that the authors support the McCanns but that they have shown utter contempt not only for their readers but for the fate of a small child.
How have they shown contempt for the fate of maddie?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 24, 2014, 11:06:00 PM
More disappointed than angry Davel but not that the authors support the McCanns but that they have shown utter contempt not only for their readers but for the fate of a small child.
do you have any idea how completely irrational you sound? Get a grip, woman.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 24, 2014, 11:11:29 PM
do you have any idea how completely irrational you sound? Get a grip, woman.
I agree...the post by faith makes no sense at all...the book has highlighted the weakness of the Portuguese investigation and therefore supports the search for the truth...which Maddie deserves..by SY
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Anna on September 24, 2014, 11:14:47 PM
Anna do you feel that if the authors have nothing new to say it is ethical to be making money from the misfortune of a small child ?
So you write pages of condemnation about every missing child book then, I assume
I have more worthwhile things to complain about in the unfairness of life and the disgusting things that are happening to victims of abuse, than get my knickers in a twist about a bl**dy book.
It seems that nearly every parent with a missing child has now written a book, but this one was more about the investigation and evidence than most, since I believe the files are not released in this country. I have never bought a book on a missing child…The one I have was a gift from someone who didn’t realise that my research had gone further.
If you don’t like missing child, books then you don’t buy missing child books. It’s just a bl**dy book! Don’t bother to answer with more ridiculous questions
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 24, 2014, 11:53:03 PM
So you write pages of condemnation about every missing child book then, I assume
I have more worthwhile things to complain about in the unfairness of life and the disgusting things that are happening to victims of abuse, than get my knickers in a twist about a bl**dy book.
It seems that nearly every parent with a missing child has now written a book, but this one was more about the investigation and evidence than most, since I believe the files are not released in this country. I have never bought a book on a missing child…The one I have was a gift from someone who didn’t realise that my research had gone further.
If you don’t like missing child, books then you don’t buy missing child books. It’s just a bl**dy book! Don’t bother to answer with more ridiculous questions
If you don't want to answer questions about a bl**dy book Anna wouldn't it be wiser not to join the thread that is discussing the bl**dy book ? Oops sorry that's another question !!
Best you go back to complaining about worthwhile things like what is happening to the victims of abuse. I'm sure that'll help enormously.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: sadie on September 25, 2014, 12:00:27 AM
So you write pages of condemnation about every missing child book then, I assume
I have more worthwhile things to complain about in the unfairness of life and the disgusting things that are happening to victims of abuse, than get my knickers in a twist about a bl**dy book.
It seems that nearly every parent with a missing child has now written a book, but this one was more about the investigation and evidence than most, since I believe the files are not released in this country. I have never bought a book on a missing child…The one I have was a gift from someone who didn’t realise that my research had gone further.
If you don’t like missing child, books then you don’t buy missing child books. It’s just a bl**dy book! Don’t bother to answer with more ridiculous questions
It's nothing to do with missing child books actually Anna. The vilification of the book is because it doesn't back their viewpoint that the Mccanns dunit.
Other views than theirs are NOT ALLOWED .... zat iz againzt ze REGULATIONS, we all 'ave to put ze boot in.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 25, 2014, 12:05:30 AM
It's nothing to do with missing child books actually Anna. The vilification of the book is because it doesn't back their viewpoint that the Mccanns dunit.
Other views than theirs are NOT ALLOWED .... zat iz againzt ze REGULATIONS, we all 'ave to put ze boot in.
If it had been a balanced book which presented the evidence fairly it would, I'm sure, have sold in greater numbers. To say that is objective is disingenuous to say the least.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: sadie on September 25, 2014, 12:19:06 AM
If it had been a balanced book which presented the evidence fairly it would, I'm sure, have sold in greater numbers. To say that is objective is disingenuous to say the least.
Dont act so innocent Faith. It doesn't suit you.
We all were well aware that there was to be a concerted attack on the book within Amazon .. and boy, was it ever organised.
We were also informed beforehand, by you lot, that people who had no intention of reading it, were going to give it a bad report. Without even opening the cover.
What debased people you are if you did that.
Depriving a couple of their rightful income.
That obviously is of NO CONCERN to YOU. You couldn't care less. You have no concept of the needs of ordinary people to pay their mortgages and feed their families. 8()(((@#
Neither have you a moral compass if you consider what happened, in deliberately destroying their work, as OK in any way. Is Luz a friend of yours by any chance?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Anna on September 25, 2014, 12:22:51 AM
It's nothing to do with missing child books actually Anna. The vilification of the book is because it doesn't back their viewpoint that the Mccanns dunit.
Other views than theirs are NOT ALLOWED .... zat iz againzt ze REGULATIONS, we all 'ave to put ze boot in.
I see your meaning Sadie. Nasty way to treat the authors though, who have come up with a book on the basic truth of the case for anyone just starting out on research(I could have done with it 12 months ago). Since the McCanns had no evidence against them, why would the authors wish to say otherwise. I cant understand people getting all hot and bothered about a book that is harming no-one and they were not the first authors to write on the subject, either. As I said it is just a book, that you can take or leave at the end of the day.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 25, 2014, 12:36:28 AM
We all were well aware that there was to be a concerted attack on the book within Amazon .. and boy, was it ever organised.
We were also informed beforehand, by you lot, that people who had no intention of reading it, were going to give it a bad report. Without even opening the cover.
What debased people you are if you did that.
Depriving a couple of their rightful income.
That obviously is of NO CONCERN to YOU. You couldn't care less. You have no concept of the needs of ordinary people to pay their mortgages and feed their families. 8()(((@#
Neither have you a moral compass if you consider what happened, in deliberately destroying their work, as OK in any way. Is Luz a friend of yours by any chance?
I don't remember you having similar concerns when it was Amaral's assets that were being frozen.
And as I had no part in a concerted attack on the book ( if that's what happened ) then I have nothing to feel guilty about.
If one of the broadsheets had reviewed the book negatively ( it's interesting in itself that there hasn't been one review in any of the broadsheets ) would you feel that they were also deliberately undermining the author's ability to feed his family ? I would hope not.
I think Summers and wife have written a book that is atrociously one-sided and it is my right to day so. That others agree is neither my fault nor my problem and if the author's egos are too fragile to handle criticism of their work I suggest the became bus drivers.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: sadie on September 25, 2014, 12:42:42 AM
I see your meaning Sadie. Nasty way to treat the authors though, who have come up with a book on the basic truth of the case for anyone just starting out on research(I could have done with it 12 months ago). Since the McCanns had no evidence against them, why would the authors wish to say otherwise. I cant understand people getting all hot and bothered about a book that is harming no-one and they were not the first authors to write on the subject, either. As I said it is just a book, that you can take or leave at the end of the day.
8@??)( Just a book.
How right you are, just a book ... but it took took two people, both experienced and well admired Authors (Artistes in writing) two years to research and craft. .... but some are intent on it being a failure for no reason other than it doesn't follow THEIR particular agenda.
What sad vicious people they are.
And now I am off to bed. Nigh Night all.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: xtina on September 25, 2014, 07:19:51 AM
I don't remember you having similar concerns when it was Amaral's assets that were being frozen.
And as I had no part in a concerted attack on the book ( if that's what happened ) then I have nothing to feel guilty about.
If one of the broadsheets had reviewed the book negatively ( it's interesting in itself that there hasn't been one review in any of the broadsheets ) would you feel that they were also deliberately undermining the author's ability to feed his family ? I would hope not.
I think Summers and wife have written a book that is atrociously one-sided and it is my right to day so. That others agree is neither my fault nor my problem and if the author's egos are too fragile to handle criticism of their work I suggest the became bus drivers.
8@??)( %£&)**#
well said ...so many ...have suffered because ...because of what the mccs did.....
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 25, 2014, 07:57:27 AM
If it had been a balanced book which presented the evidence fairly it would, I'm sure, have sold in greater numbers. To say that is objective is disingenuous to say the least.
It does present the evidence fairly but contradicts everything you have believed for the past seven years. Coming from authors you previously respected it's very hard for you to take and it shows
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 25, 2014, 08:06:30 AM
It does present the evidence fairly but contradicts everything you have believed for the past seven years. Coming from authors you previously respected it's very hard for you to take and it shows
No, it presents one side and one side only.
The abduction.
Nothing else there, but a money making exercise rapidly going down the book charts into oblivion.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 25, 2014, 08:10:23 AM
It does present the evidence fairly but contradicts everything you have believed for the past seven years. Coming from authors you previously respected it's very hard for you to take and it shows
My, does it ever! This book seems to have upset Faithlilly more than anything else in the last seven years. For her it seems personal - could it be because she somehow feels rebuffed after her correspondence with the authors...?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: xtina on September 25, 2014, 08:23:03 AM
The same accusations were levelled at Amaral by you supporters. In which way were they more valid ?
Amaral's book showed contempt for the due process of law by publicly accusing two people who have never been found guilty of any crime. His book was filled with errors and his theory was pants. Now, perhaps you can list all the glaring errors, misinformation and lies in the S & S book and demonstrate just how impossible are their conclusions.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 25, 2014, 08:28:44 AM
If it had been a balanced book which presented the evidence fairly it would, I'm sure, have sold in greater numbers. To say that is objective is disingenuous to say the least.
What has the book not included which makes it unbalanced, in your view? Amaral was asked several times for an interview but politely declined - I wonder why....?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 25, 2014, 08:32:36 AM
Amaral's book showed contempt for the due process of law by publicly accusing two people who have never been found guilty of any crime. His book was filled with errors and his theory was pants. Now, perhaps you can list all the glaring errors, misinformation and lies in the S & S book and demonstrate just how impossible are their conclusions.
Now please show where the theory of accidental death has been disproved.
As to the mccanns, THEY AND ONLY THEY INITIATED THE EVENTS LEADING TO MADELEINE'S 'DISAPPEARANCE'.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: xtina on September 25, 2014, 08:43:32 AM
My, does it ever! This book seems to have upset Faithlilly more than anything else in the last seven years. For her it seems personal - could it be because she somehow feels rebuffed after her correspondence with the authors...?
Why are S&S so reluctant to present the whole truth about events? This sort of ........... should have no place in such a book.
Now we come to the McCann's and their friends working on a formal version of the timeline of the night of 3rd May. We are told that this was requested by the police:
"The police had said that those rough documents, written on the covers of a child's book, would not do. So it was four or five days later, that they worked on the chronology again."
This seems most peculiar. We were told earlier that a PJ officer was present when the first timelines on the book cover were written, although there is no evidence that was true. Now after the police have interviewed all of the tapas group and have asked them all for their version of events including times. Twice in the case of Gerry McCann, Jane Tanner and Russel O'Brien. They now require the most important witnesses to work together without a PJ officer present to produce a better version. That just didn't sound right to me so I decided to check.
Fortunately Kate McCann's own book provided a much more believable account of the reason the group drew up a new timeline document. Here is what Kate says:
"By Sunday evening," (presumably this is Sunday 13th May) we found ourselves giving our statements again, this time to a couple of detectives from Control Risks." (Kate had earlier explained that Control Risks was a company brought in by a shadowy character called Hugh {no surname, 'Just call me Hugh'}.) "We were concerned that parts of the statements we had made to the Portuguese police, especially on that first day, might have been lost in translation. We also felt that these accounts were not sufficiently thorough and wanted to have every detail we could remember registered properly."
So S&S have been .......... once more. The PJ had not requested that the group provide a more detailed timeline at all. I'm starting to wonder whether all this ........... reporting is deliberate or incompetent.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 25, 2014, 09:48:25 AM
Hmmm … it was heart rending and so well orchestrated … could they???” … “what parent would???” … “ the last book touched by Baby Maddie” ... "what kind of people are they???" etcetera - etcetera - etcetera -
What an excellent foil that was to show the insensitivity in the propaganda war directed at Madeleine’s parents … that they just ripped Madeleine’s colouring book to shreds to write a timeline on it.
Now the book has busted another myth … neither Madeleine McCann’s mother … or Madeleine McCann’s father were responsible for using the book.
It was actually Russell O’Brien.
No wonder the inhabitants of the myth factory are having apoplexy at the mere thought of S&S exposing their murky world.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 25, 2014, 10:35:45 AM
Is it true as on one the Amazon reviews that S & S have claimed the fund was a charity, when it is a private Ltd., company ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 25, 2014, 10:46:28 AM
It seems O'Brien was unaware of what he was writing on when compiling the timelines so it was certainly not him who tore the colouring book into pieces. So who was it ?
From his rogatory statement :
'the recollections of what happened there are relatively dim now, but the only ones I can really recall was, although it was prompted by what you showed me on Tuesday, was that we were writing on the back of a piece of card, I thought it was a cereal box but obviously it was a children’s book, a very kind of, very, very, draft idea of what happened in the hour and, erm, and what state the windows and the shutters had been in and I think I, that was, that was written with me sat at the table in Kate and Gerry’s room.'
So no myth busted but another example of how badly researched, or disingenuous, the book actually is.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 25, 2014, 11:48:38 AM
Is it true as on one the Amazon reviews that S & S have claimed the fund was a charity, when it is a private Ltd., company ?
Why not purchase your own copy to find out what the authors are saying about lots and lots of things? One should really consider one's position if quoting from another person's review on Amazon ... it is my undersatnding some foolish people who have not read the book are writing reviews for some reason best known to themselves.
I find it best to make up my own mind on these things ... you should try it sometimes ... very liberating. 8)--))
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 25, 2014, 12:43:30 PM
Why not purchase your own copy to find out what the authors are saying about lots and lots of things? One should really consider one's position if quoting from another person's review on Amazon ... it is my undersatnding some foolish people who have not read the book are writing reviews for some reason best known to themselves.
I find it best to make up my own mind on these things ... you should try it sometimes ... very liberating. 8)--))
So is it true or not ?
Simple question, easily ANSWERED.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 25, 2014, 04:03:56 PM
Why are S&S so reluctant to present the whole truth about events? This sort of ......... should have no place in such a book.
Now we come to the McCann's and their friends working on a formal version of the timeline of the night of 3rd May. We are told that this was requested by the police:
"The police had said that those rough documents, written on the covers of a child's book, would not do. So it was four or five days later, that they worked on the chronology again."
This seems most peculiar. We were told earlier that a PJ officer was present when the first timelines on the book cover were written, although there is no evidence that was true. Now after the police have interviewed all of the tapas group and have asked them all for their version of events including times. Twice in the case of Gerry McCann, Jane Tanner and Russel O'Brien. They now require the most important witnesses to work together without a PJ officer present to produce a better version. That just didn't sound right to me so I decided to check.
Fortunately Kate McCann's own book provided a much more believable account of the reason the group drew up a new timeline document. Here is what Kate says:
"By Sunday evening," (presumably this is Sunday 13th May) we found ourselves giving our statements again, this time to a couple of detectives from Control Risks." (Kate had earlier explained that Control Risks was a company brought in by a shadowy character called Hugh {no surname, 'Just call me Hugh'}.) "We were concerned that parts of the statements we had made to the Portuguese police, especially on that first day, might have been lost in translation. We also felt that these accounts were not sufficiently thorough and wanted to have every detail we could remember registered properly."
So S&S have been ........... once more. The PJ had not requested that the group provide a more detailed timeline at all. I'm starting to wonder whether all this .......... reporting is deliberate or incompetent.
So here we have the mccanns showing that they were concerned about inaccurate translations of their initial statements
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Anna on September 25, 2014, 08:45:00 PM
The mccanns and only the mccanns are responsible for what happened to Madeleine, no one else, and not a mythical abductor.
but the type of crime has not been ascertained...
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 26, 2014, 08:17:41 AM
From Blacksmith....
'the manifestly second-rate quality of the book’s research, the absence of anything new, the crippling admission by the authors that they’d given undertakings to the parents in advance.'
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 26, 2014, 11:17:07 AM
It is my understanding that LOOKING for MADELEINE is at the top of another major outlet's bestseller chart.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 26, 2014, 11:18:57 AM
In my opinion what S&S have held back on in this book - mindful that an active investigation into a missing child could otherwise be compromised - will be worth reading in their follow up. As will be the furore created in certain quarters by the publication of LOOKING For MADELEINE and the nest of vipers they have upturned.
Should even be worth a penny or two of your money ... who knows you might even recognise yourself under another guise.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 26, 2014, 11:29:47 AM
In my opinion what S&S have held back on in this book - mindful that an active investigation into a missing child could otherwise be compromised - will be worth reading in their follow up. As will be the furore created in certain quarters by the publication of LOOKING For MADELEINE and the nest of vipers they have upturned.
Should even be worth a penny or two of your money ... who knows you might even recognise yourself under another guise.
What a load of cobblers.
So what are the sales then at this other seller ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 26, 2014, 11:35:01 AM
104 copies on kindle from Amazon.co.uk, up from August and possibly as a result of the publicity surrounding Summers book. The hardback though has sold somewhere in the region of 6 copies which is hardly healthy.
Kate's book has sold approximately 170 copies across three formats on Amazon alone in the month of September, according to Novelrank (a website you seem to set great store by). The fact that it has sold any copies at all in hardback is amazing, seeing as the paperback is cheaper, the fact that 170 copies were sold from one source alone in the month of September - a book that was first published years ago is pretty impressive, deride it as you no doubt will. I'm sure Smiffy would be very happy if his book was still selling in such numbers @)(++(*
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 26, 2014, 02:14:40 PM
Well this puts things in perspective....sort of! I love the dog handler and Melton Mowbray connections "JT Edson, who has died aged 86, was a former British Army dog-handler who wrote more than 130 Western novels, accounting for some 27 million sales in paperback". http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/10991471/JT-Edson-obituary.html
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 26, 2014, 04:53:11 PM
Then you will have a long wait, as you know publishers who are the ones to know, are exceedingly coy about such numbers. You will just have to wait and see where they are on the listings ... and I reiterate ... they are doing very well from at least one outlet I have found ... which I will not name for the reaon I have already given.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 26, 2014, 04:58:19 PM
Then you will have a long wait, as you know publishers who are the ones to know, are exceedingly coy about such numbers. You will just have to wait and see where they are on the listings ... and I reiterate ... they are doing very well from at least one outlet I have found ... which I will not name for the reaon I have already given.
in other words sales are poor, and in all likelihood, S & S will be returning some of their advance.
Shame, innit. 8(0(*
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 26, 2014, 05:02:19 PM
Kate's book has sold approximately 170 copies across three formats on Amazon alone in the month of September, according to Novelrank (a website you seem to set great store by). The fact that it has sold any copies at all in hardback is amazing, seeing as the paperback is cheaper, the fact that 170 copies were sold from one source alone in the month of September - a book that was first published years ago is pretty impressive, deride it as you no doubt will. I'm sure Smiffy would be very happy if his book was still selling in such numbers @)(++(*
Shame this thread isn't about Kate's book then but Summers and wife's.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 26, 2014, 06:12:54 PM
I'm not the one who was parading the book as a great success.
Now pray tell, which group of people were ?
Tough question that .
I bought and read the book ... I found it well written and informative and I recommend it to you.
I'm not the one chewing the carpet about it however and the fact there are those who have embarked on a metaphysical book burning enterprise suggest that for some obscure reason ... a book written by unbiased authors using credible sources has reached a conclusion not to their liking ... has them seriously worried.
I wonder about that.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 26, 2014, 06:23:20 PM
When you include sources that support a particular conclusion and leave out those that don't what you get is grievously skewed book that is unworthy of its undeniably talented authors.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 26, 2014, 06:30:23 PM
When you include sources that support a particular conclusion and leave out those that don't what you get is grievously skewed book that is unworthy of its undeniably talented authors.
you obviously don't understand the evidence
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 26, 2014, 08:02:39 PM
I bought and read the book ... I found it well written and informative and I recommend it to you.
I'm not the one chewing the carpet about it however and the fact there are those who have embarked on a metaphysical book burning enterprise suggest that for some obscure reason ... a book written by unbiased authors using credible sources has reached a conclusion not to their liking ... has them seriously worried.
I wonder about that.
I'm not the one chewing the carpet.
It's you and your mates doing that.
Just try admitting the truth, the book is a waste of paper.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: a.baker on September 26, 2014, 11:30:45 PM
I consider myself fairly neutral with regards to the case and I purchased the book when it was published. I love reading but am struggling with it. I'm finding it a chore to read as it feels like I've read it all before? From newspapers,Kate's book etc. I really do wish I hadn't wasted my money.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 27, 2014, 08:55:45 AM
I bought and read the book ... I found it well written and informative and I recommend it to you.
I'm not the one chewing the carpet about it however and the fact there are those who have embarked on a metaphysical book burning enterprise suggest that for some obscure reason ... a book written by unbiased authors using credible sources has reached a conclusion not to their liking ... has them seriously worried.
I wonder about that.
The book was written after consultation with the mccanns.
Enough said.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 27, 2014, 09:48:12 AM
The book was written after consultation with the mccanns.
Enough said.
Oh dearie me Steph ... it all depends what one means by 'consultation', the authors describe their meeting with the Drs and the police ... it's all in the book where you can read it first hand if you bother to purchase a copy.
Can't quite remember what it was Dr Amaral did when they contacted him ... must be a footnote somewhere ... I'll look again sometime but I see he's mentioned on 30+ pages, so maybe I'll wait until you've got your copy and we can have an informative discussion.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 27, 2014, 10:25:47 AM
Oh dearie me Steph ... it all depends what one means by 'consultation', the authors describe their meeting with the Drs and the police ... it's all in the book where you can read it first hand if you bother to purchase a copy.
Can't quite remember what it was Dr Amaral did when they contacted him ... must be a footnote somewhere ... I'll look again sometime but I see he's mentioned on 30+ pages, so maybe I'll wait until you've got your copy and we can have an informative discussion.
'S & S' clearly discussed the book with the mccanns.
Any book worth it's salt would be independent.
The book is a joke.
The sales are a joke.
Anyone who backs the book is a joke.
There is no discussion to have brietta. 8)-))) 8)--))
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 27, 2014, 12:52:38 PM
'S & S' clearly discussed the book with the mccanns.
Any book worth it's salt would be independent.
The book is a joke.
The sales are a joke.
Anyone who backs the book is a joke.
There is no discussion to have brietta. 8)-))) 8)--))
LOOKING For MADELEINE sure enough seems to have upset your applecart ... then of course that is not your opinion since you have not bothered to read it ... it is the opinion of others who probably haven't read it either.
Who is the 'Great Book Reader in Chief' who tells everyone else what to think, I wonder ?? 8(>((
So many upset applecarts ... sigh.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 27, 2014, 03:15:33 PM
If the book is so good why are the sales so poor. ?
and I have no intention of paying for such a waste of money and time.
because most of the people who are interested in the case know pretty well everything about the case and would learn nothing new from the book...as I predicted before the book was published
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 27, 2014, 03:38:23 PM
Mercy me my dears my old friend Old Mother Shipton strikes again with her amazingly accurate forecasts.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 27, 2014, 05:03:40 PM
because most of the people who are interested in the case know pretty well everything about the case and would learn nothing new from the book...as I predicted before the book was published
Do you really think dave, that you were the only one who 'predicted' that ?
@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 27, 2014, 05:31:49 PM
We have confirmation from the authors that at the meeting with Redwood they were advised..
At Scotland Yard, Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood met with us at the outset, spoke frankly, but made it clear that he and his colleagues could not favour us – or any part of the media community – over any other parties.
No mention of this in the so called document...looks like a fake...but doubters are easily fooled
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 27, 2014, 07:27:26 PM
Just rehashed material going nowhere,just like the investigation.
A certain irony in that.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 27, 2014, 07:31:07 PM
I will remind you of this when the UK govt intervene to stop the Portuguese judiciary blocking the SY investigation
That we should both live that long Davel !!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 27, 2014, 10:51:49 PM
A half truth is the most cowardly of lies.
A flavour of the dishonesty that runs through Summers book.
About the reconstruction.
'So it went. As the objections continued, ( of The Paynes, Oldfields et al ) the planned date for the reconstruction was put off. When the request changed, as the Paynes put it, 'from informal and friendly to a formal summons', some of those involved sought legal advice. On May 27th word came that the Portuguese prosecutor's office had given up on the notion of a re-enactment after all.'
What the author fails to mention is that by the 22nd of May all the friends of the McCanns had declined to take part in the reconstruction knowing that if they didn't all attend it wouldn't go ahead. The prosecutor's office had no choice but to give up on the diligence.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 28, 2014, 12:09:03 AM
So what do you call suggesting that it was the prosecutor's office who arbitrarily decided not to go ahead with the reconstruction ? What do you call not mentioning that the McCann's friends refused to go back to Portugal and therefore the reconstruction couldn't take place.
It's either ............... or a piece of very bad research. What one do you think it is ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 28, 2014, 08:58:34 AM
What Faithlilly is doing with Summers and Swan is the same as she has spent 7 years doing to the McCanns and their friends, ie scouring statements, interviews and books for any slight inconsistency or minor error to use as evidence of deceit. What she cannot explain in this instance is why these authors would deliberately leave out a minor and not-very-important detail in the narrative regarding the reconstruction. It would have made little difference to the overall conclusion of the book if they had made it crystal clear the sequence of events leading up to the dropping of the reconstruction. However, Faithlilly obviously thinks it a very serious omission so I would advise her to write back to the authors with whom she has corresponded before to ask them.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 28, 2014, 09:27:37 AM
What Faithlilly is doing with Summers and Swan is the same as she has spent 7 years doing to the McCanns and their friends, ie scouring statements, interviews and books for any slight inconsistency or minor error to use as evidence of deceit. What she cannot explain in this instance is why these authors would deliberately leave out a minor and not-very-important detail in the narrative regarding the reconstruction. It would have made little difference to the overall conclusion of the book if they had made it crystal clear the sequence of events leading up to the dropping of the reconstruction. However, Faithlilly obviously thinks it a very serious omission so I would advise her to write back to the authors with whom she has corresponded before to ask them.
Cobblers.
The book is nothing new.
Made with the permission of the mccanns, and all apart of a PR exercise, to say what nice parents and people they are.
Unlike 'cuddlecat', that will bever wash.
People have seen through the ACT.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: slartibartfast on September 28, 2014, 09:32:34 AM
What Faithlilly is doing with Summers and Swan is the same as she has spent 7 years doing to the McCanns and their friends, ie scouring statements, interviews and books for any slight inconsistency or minor error to use as evidence of deceit. What she cannot explain in this instance is why these authors would deliberately leave out a minor and not-very-important detail in the narrative regarding the reconstruction. It would have made little difference to the overall conclusion of the book if they had made it crystal clear the sequence of events leading up to the dropping of the reconstruction. However, Faithlilly obviously thinks it a very serious omission so I would advise her to write back to the authors with whom she has corresponded before to ask them.
Strange idea of a minor and not-very-important detail.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 28, 2014, 11:05:56 AM
Strange idea of a minor and not-very-important detail.
Explain why it is such an important detail then.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Anna on September 28, 2014, 11:28:33 AM
J wilkins isn't mentioned and the OC staff have not yet had their letters translated....If I read this correctly. So how many couldn't make it to the re-enactment?
Cancellation of re-enactment
Processos Vol XVI Page 4355
Prosecutor of the Republic Portimão Circuit
CONCLUSION on 26-5-2008
As referred to by the despatch that ordered the Reconstruction, in spite of this being considered a very important diligence for the investigation, it would only take place if the witnesses who were notified were present as well as the arguidos who had expressed their availability to participate.The witnesses Russell O’Brien, Jane Tanner, Matthew Oldfield and Rachel Mampilly have informed the process that they will not attend, therefore the reconstruction has no sense.
The notification of the arguidos Gerald and Kate was done by means of their legal representatives and notification of the witnesses David Payne, Fiona Payne, Dianne Webster, Russell O’Brien, Jane Tanner, Matthew Oldfield, Rachel Mampilly and Jeremy Wilkins was done with the collaboration of the UK police upon the request of the PJ.
Taking into account that the PJ is available to begin to translate the Letter or request, but also having a large quantity of documents to translate, and as part of the Letter of Request has already been delivered for translation, the statements of Amanda Coxon, Michael Wright, Linda McQueen, Justine McGuinness, Peter Patterson, Michelle Thompson, Emma Knights, Kenneth Walden, Carole Tranmer and Nicky remain to be translated.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic24-40.html
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: slartibartfast on September 28, 2014, 11:50:07 AM
If you can't grasp the differences between "the PJ decided not to do a reconstruction " and "because of the lack of cooperation from the witnesses the PJ were forced to drop the reconstruction" God help you.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Anna on September 28, 2014, 12:49:49 PM
It doesn’t look to me as if the Authors were trying to deny or avoid, the reason for the re-enactment cancellation.
Excerpt from the book:-
Chapter 14 He bewailed the fact that no re-enactment had taken place, due to the refusal of some of necessary members of holiday group to return to our country. That he suggested, might have resolved crucial outstanding issues.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ferryman on September 28, 2014, 01:09:20 PM
A flavour of the dishonesty that runs through Summers book.
About the reconstruction.
'So it went. As the objections continued, ( of The Paynes, Oldfields et al ) the planned date for the reconstruction was put off. When the request changed, as the Paynes put it, 'from informal and friendly to a formal summons', some of those involved sought legal advice. On May 27th word came that the Portuguese prosecutor's office had given up on the notion of a re-enactment after all.'
What the author fails to mention is that by the 22nd of May all the friends of the McCanns had declined to take part in the reconstruction knowing that if they didn't all attend it wouldn't go ahead. The prosecutor's office had no choice but to give up on the diligence.
fails to mention?
In what sense do you count omission of irrelevance as a "failure"?
The only thing relevant that might have come out a Portguese-style "reconstitution" is a shifting of the time-line.
Scotland Yard did that, all on their own, without a "reconstitution", rendering one redundant.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 28, 2014, 02:19:56 PM
It doesn’t look to me as if the Authors were trying to deny or avoid, the reason for the re-enactment cancellation.
Excerpt from the book:-
Chapter 14 He bewailed the fact that no re-enactment had taken place, due to the refusal of some of necessary members of holiday group to return to our country. That he suggested, might have resolved crucial outstanding issues.
Can't see that in chapter 14?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Anna on September 28, 2014, 04:28:48 PM
If you are using a kindle, do a search.location 2468. If not it is near the end of that chapter ,and after "
On june 30th 2008, with the final report from the UK's forensic science service, in hand, Inspector Joao Carlos ........................................................ The PJ had spared no effort, provided exceptional technical means, manpower and financing towards...
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 28, 2014, 04:52:06 PM
It doesn’t look to me as if the Authors were trying to deny or avoid, the reason for the re-enactment cancellation.
Excerpt from the book:-
Chapter 14 He bewailed the fact that no re-enactment had taken place, due to the refusal of some of necessary members of holiday group to return to our country. That he suggested, might have resolved crucial outstanding issues.
You fail to take note that the author had already claimed that it was an arbitrary decision by the prosecutor, and the prosecutor alone, that stopped the reconstruction taking place. Anything that comes afterwards, and note the derogatory use of the word 'bewailed', merely suggests that the Portuguese were trying to shift blame for their poor decision.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 28, 2014, 05:20:08 PM
You fail to take note that the author had already claimed that it was an arbitrary decision by the prosecutor, and the prosecutor alone, that stopped the reconstruction taking place. Anything that comes afterwards, and note the derogatory use of the word 'bewailed', merely suggests that the Portuguese were trying to shift blame for their poor decision.
You talk a load of rubbish. Anyone can see that the book jumps back and forth in time. How the hell is being bewailed( extremely sorry) that the group didnt go back to portugal, have to do with blaming anyone?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Anna on September 28, 2014, 05:46:09 PM
@ Faithlily. You have accused the Authors of dishonesty. Simply because they omitted some details in their book, I think that you are searching the book, frantically, for faults.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 28, 2014, 05:51:39 PM
@ Faithlily. You have accused the Authors of dishonesty. Simply because they omitted some details in their book, I think that you are searching the book, frantically, for faults.
So why did they omit these details ?
Was it because if reflected badly on the mccanns and/or it was incompetence on the authors part ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Anna on September 28, 2014, 05:55:50 PM
Was it because if reflected badly on the mccanns and/or it was incompetence on the authors part ?
Well they certainly added some complimentary comments regarding the PJ and how much information can one get into one book. What of importance was omitted?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 28, 2014, 06:03:11 PM
Well they certainly added some complimentary comments regarding the PJ and how much information can one get into one book. What of importance was omitted?
Well, I have been passed the book by a friend.
I'll answer that one once I have the time and patience to read it.
Let's see if it's more interesting or less, than Mr. Hall's efforts in his videos on the case .
P.S. I have watched numbers 1,4 and half of number 2.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Anna on September 28, 2014, 06:07:10 PM
It doesn’t look to me as if the Authors were trying to deny or avoid, the reason for the re-enactment cancellation.
Excerpt from the book:-
Chapter 14 He bewailed the fact that no re-enactment had taken place, due to the refusal of some of necessary members of holiday group to return to our country. That he suggested, might have resolved crucial outstanding issues.
Oh dear. Bang goes Faithlilly's latest attempt to smear Summers and "wife" - egg on face time once again. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 28, 2014, 06:48:51 PM
You fail to take note that the author had already claimed that it was an arbitrary decision by the prosecutor, and the prosecutor alone, that stopped the reconstruction taking place. Anything that comes afterwards, and note the derogatory use of the word 'bewailed', merely suggests that the Portuguese were trying to shift blame for their poor decision.
A phrase comes to mind reading the above Faithlilly - grasping at straws. You really have shown yourself up this time. The authors categorically state that the renactment failed to take place owing to the refusal of some of the group to return to Portugal. In fact I would go so far as to say that it is YOU being ........ by failing to mention this excerpt from the book a mere couple of paragraphs on from the excerpt you reproduced earlier. Shame on you!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 28, 2014, 06:49:50 PM
Well in the introduction it says 'The Detective Chief Inspector heading the probe said the little girl may be alive'.
He also said she might be dead, and could have died in the apartment.
Good start by omitting some of the facts, and thereby telling the reader part of what Redwood actually said.
Actually the start reveals quite acutely what path this book will tread.................
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: slartibartfast on September 28, 2014, 06:53:21 PM
A phrase comes to mind reading the above Faithlilly - grasping at straws. You really have shown yourself up this time. The authors categorically state that the renactment failed to take place owing to the refusal of some of the group to return to Portugal. I would go so far as to say that it is YOU being ........ by failing to mention this excerpt from the book a mere couple of paragraphs on from the excerpt you reproduced earlier. Shame on you!
BS, the authors lead the uneducated reader to think that while the T9 were deciding if they were going to attend the PJ decided not to run the reconstruction. With a footnote to the chapter of the disappointment of the PJ that the T9 wouldn't all attend.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 28, 2014, 06:56:42 PM
Page 10.
Now just to remind people, the crime has yet to be ascertained.
It has yet to be established who is responsible for Madeleine's disappearance, so on that note, whether some like it or not, others are still in the frame.
'This book has been researched and written independently of Gerry and Kate Mccann'.
@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
and I just saw a blue moon. &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 28, 2014, 07:02:17 PM
Page 11.
Is this a Mills and Boon book ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 28, 2014, 07:02:33 PM
BS, the authors lead the uneducated reader to think that while the T9 were deciding if they were going to attend the PJ decided not to run the reconstruction. With a footnote to the chapter of the disappointment of the PJ that the T9 wouldn't all attend.
Of course they do.
Strange that Alfred seems so hellbent on convincing us all that the authors are beyond reproach.
As I have said before members should read the book and make up their own mind the truth of the matter.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 28, 2014, 07:21:08 PM
Well page 12.
The authors refer to Madeleine being a derivation of Magdalene.
I presume they have been talking to Nigel Nessling on that one ?
Kate Mccann a devout catholic ???
Well Susan Healy, said they, km and gm had no interest in 'religion' prior to Madeleine's disappearance, and I thought I.V.F. was prohibited, if you are a Catholic.
Mmm.
So good research then. &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Anna on September 28, 2014, 07:24:12 PM
Strange that Alfred seems so hellbent on convincing us all that the authors are beyond reproach.
As I have said before members should read the book and make up their own mind the truth of the matter.
good idea, if you will let them, instead of Nit picking and adjusting the book contents to your own preferences which would suit, the condemnation of everything McCann, including accusing the Authors of the book.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Anna on September 28, 2014, 07:25:58 PM
BS, the authors lead the uneducated reader to think that while the T9 were deciding if they were going to attend the PJ decided not to run the reconstruction. With a footnote to the chapter of the disappointment of the PJ that the T9 wouldn't all attend.
It is not a footnote at the end of the chapter!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 28, 2014, 07:28:41 PM
BS, the authors lead the uneducated reader to think that while the T9 were deciding if they were going to attend the PJ decided not to run the reconstruction. With a footnote to the chapter of the disappointment of the PJ that the T9 wouldn't all attend.
You obviously haven't read the book. It is not a footnote to the chapter. Do you think, when accusing the authors of deliberately omitting the bit about the reason for the PT officials decision not to proceed with the reconstructuion that it was honest of Faithlilly to fail to mention the fact that the authors quote verbatim the PT AG a couple of hundred words later that in his view the recon did not take place "due to the refusal of some of the necessary members of the holiday group to return to our country"?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 28, 2014, 07:36:10 PM
As it comes after the reader has been misled it has a reduced impact, hence my usage of the term footnote.
Do you really think people are so dumb that once they are told something by an author they are unable to process a different point of view a couple of hundred words later? Where is the authors' ..........?? Please point it out.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 28, 2014, 07:38:46 PM
Now why have they omitted on page 13, gm's repsonse on the video
'I'm not fu###in here to enjoy myself'
I can't imagine why. %£&)**# %£&)**# %£&)**#
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: xtina on September 28, 2014, 08:07:41 PM
"At Scotland Yard, Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood met with us at the outset, spoke frankly, but made it clear that he and his colleagues could not favour us – or any part of the media community – over any other parties."
- A Note on Sources in 'Looking for Madeleine' by Anthony Summers & Robbyn Swan
According to a Metropolitan Police document seen by this blog, DCI Andy Redwood and another unnamed MPS Detective Inspector met with Anthony Summers and Rubby (sic) Swan at 1200 on Friday 15th February 2013.
The (MET Police) Incident Message notes that the authors:
".. are researching a book on Madeleine with the knowledge of Mr and Mrs MCCANN and our contact details were supplied by them."
The (MET Police) message states, in bold type:
"It was made absolutely clear that any approach to nominals in this case would be detrimental to our objective of building up a productive working relationship with the Portuguese. Our clear priority is to find out what happened to Madeleine and nothing should distract from that."
It goes on to say:
"Absolutely no “off the record” comments or other information were made/given. They were politely advised that all the information is in the public domain via the PJ files on the internet, and whilst we understood the interest and value in such a book that would extend to telling the story of this investigative review, their time would be best spent getting up to speed on the available files and forming their own opinion on it."
The (MET Police) internal message, for Officers Information and classified as Low Priority, was revealed under the Freedom of Information Act.
The (MET Police) message also states:
"It was explained that despite agreeing to meet them, we were unable to assist in anyway re their project, even as far as giving them timescale’s for the review’s completion. (This was requested in order that they could tie in the publication of the book to that of our process’s end result.)"
In their book, Summers & Swan write, in July 2014:
The authors wish to make clear at the outset that, after more than two years studying this controversial case, they have seen not a shred of evidence to indicate that Gerry and Kate McCann, any member of their holiday group, or Robert Murat were at any stage – in May 2007 or subsequently – guilty of malfeasance of any kind in connection with Madeleine McCann’s disappearance or the repercussions that followed."
Three years and three months after they launched their review, now a fully-fledged investigation, a 37 strong team of Met officers have yet to draw their own final conclusion.
The Met, it seems, were unable to fall in line with the publisher’s marketing plans.
Can it be that Summers and Swan’s book , described as ‘the definitive account of the Madeleine McCann case’, came rather too soon? =================================================== The message also states:
"It was explained that despite agreeing to meet them, we were unable to assist in anyway re their project, even as far as giving them timescale’s for the review’s completion. (This was requested in order that they could tie in the publication of the book to that of our process’s end result.)" ------------------------------------------------------- The (Met Police/OG) message also states:
"THIS WAS REQUESTED IN ORDER THAT THEY COULD 'TIE IN' THE PUBLICATION OF THE 'BOOK' TO THAT OF 'OUR' PROCESS'S 'END RESULT'."
SO THERE YOU HAVE IT!
S&S 'book' TIMED to 'TIE IN' with OG/Met Police 'END RESULT'
So, imo, the 'book' was 'supposed' to have 'chimed' WITH the McCanns LAST libel 'date, (they weren't to know the Portuguese legal 'system' was to go belly up!)
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: slartibartfast on September 28, 2014, 08:16:22 PM
Do you really think people are so dumb that once they are told something by an author they are unable to process a different point of view a couple of hundred words later? Where is the authors' dishonesty?? Please point it out.
So was it sloppy writing or deliberate?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 28, 2014, 08:35:31 PM
No half truths here. It is clear that the authors wanted the reader to believe that it was not the tapas friends but the prosecutor who stopped the reconstruction from happening and if you can't see that Alfred then you really are more of a fool than I originally thought.
Where does it say the prosecutor stopped the reconstruction? Why do the authors include the words of the AG where he states explicitly that the reconstruction did not take place because of the refusal of some of the group to take part? Why did you fail to even mention the inclusion of this quote in your original post accusing the authors.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: slartibartfast on September 28, 2014, 09:32:01 PM
Where does it say the prosecutor wanted the reconstruction stopped? Why do the authors include the words of the AG where he states explicitly that the reconstruction did not take place because of the refusal of some of the group to take part? Why did you fail to even mention the inclusion of this quote in your original post accusing the authors.
It says it was stopped and it implies it was while the T9 were taking legal advice not after at least one of them had refused.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 28, 2014, 09:37:20 PM
It says it was stopped and it implies it was while the T9 were taking legal advice not after at least one of them had refused.
It then goes on to clarify that the members of the holiday group refused to take part. If the authors really did want to re-write the facts they would surely have left this quote out! Jeez, some people...
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 28, 2014, 09:39:18 PM
Incidentally the authors also talk of the group's obduracy, which is hardly a positive term to describe their behaviour, is it?
It then goes on to clarify that the members of the holiday group refused to take part. If the authors really did want to re-write the facts they would surely have left this quote out! Jeez, some people...
So why not say that first...
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 28, 2014, 09:49:13 PM
so, are you saying that because the authors write this quote less than 150 words after stating that the prosecutor had given up on the notion of a re-enactment but not before describing the McCann group's "obduracy", that the authors are .............? Puh-lease!!!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 28, 2014, 11:21:49 PM
so, are you saying that because the authors write this quote less than 150 words after stating that the prosecutor had given up on the notion of a re-enactment but not before describing the McCann group's "obduracy", that the authors are ..............? Puh-lease!!!
Admit it Alfred Summers, in this book, writes with all the literary sophistication and attention to detail of the manual labourer he once was.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 29, 2014, 08:12:34 AM
Faithlilly is right.
The book is puerile rubbish based upon what I've read and the extracts from other sections I've seen.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: John on September 29, 2014, 10:43:53 AM
What I don't understand is why Summers and Swan claim in their book that the evidence is indicative of a stranger abduction when even Scotland Yard don't even know what the crime was if any?
If they know so much why haven't they shared it with Redwood?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 29, 2014, 01:02:13 PM
Another piece of slight of hand from our favourite authors when trying to explain why Gerry and Wilkins had not seen Tanner :
'It was already fairly dark- Tanner recalled the 'orangey' effect of the street lighting. The trio's memories were fuzzy on precisely where they had been standing or which way the had been standing as they chatted'
Nothing 'fuzzy' about Wilkins memory when giving his statement to the Leicestershire police on the 31st October 2007
'He eventually made his way along Rua Dr Francisco toward the direction of Rua Dr Agostinho. At this time he was walking on the right side of the road passing the Tapas bar area to his left. He noticed the bad street lighting and although it was not completely dark there was enough light to see clearly. As he approached the corner of the McCanns apartment, he saw Gerry appear from the area of the gate. He crossed the road and engaged in general conversation with Gerry. At this time they were stood with Gerry's back to the building near to the gate and Jeremy facing him. Rua Dr Agostino was about 10-15 meters to his right and the pathway leading to the front of the apartment blocks about 5 meters to his left. He was adamant that he did not see any one else in the area. When spoken to in reference to Jane Tanner walking by, he again stated that he saw no one. He also stated that he did not see or hear anyone to his right. He was aware of the recent picture in the papers re the person with a child wrapped in a blanket and in a males arms allegedly walking across the junction to his right but again stated that he did not see any one.'
Or indeed in the Tapas timeline handed to the PJ on the 10th May 2007.
'2115: JT leaves table, and sees GM talking with fellow resident ("Jez" Wilkins) outside the patio gate of 5A. The two were standing just up the hill from the gate towards Rua A. da Silva Road. She did not speak to GM as she passed. '
The question also has to be asked that if the lighting was so bad in the street that Wilkins couldn't see Tanner within two feet of him, as the author postulates, how could Tanner see so clearly the pattern on the child's pyjamas who was being carried many more feet away ?
So much for investigative churnalism eh !!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: DCI on September 29, 2014, 01:52:21 PM
The question also has to be asked that if the lighting was so bad in the street that Wilkins couldn't see Tanner within two feet of him, as the author postulates, how could Tanner see so clearly the pattern on the child's pyjamas who was being carried many more feet away ?
So much for investigative churnalism eh !!
Shouldn't this question also apply to the Smith's family sightings
Dark alleyway, probably darker than the top of the road that had street lighting where Jane saw man.
Where they saw their man there's no light up the alleyway the till nearer the staff quarters. They even saw the child's eyes were closed.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 29, 2014, 02:22:53 PM
What I don't understand is why Summers and Swan claim in their book that the evidence is indicative of a stranger abduction when even Scotland Yard don't even know what the crime was if any?
If they know so much why haven't they shared it with Redwood?
Are you unaware of the fact that Scotland Yard have already said that the evidence is indicative of a stranger abduction?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 29, 2014, 02:32:18 PM
Another piece of slight of hand from our favourite authors when trying to explain why Gerry and Wilkins had not seen Tanner :
'It was already fairly dark- Tanner recalled the 'orangey' effect of the street lighting. The trio's memories were fuzzy on precisely where they had been standing or which way the had been standing as they chatted'
Nothing 'fuzzy' about Wilkins memory when giving his statement to the Leicestershire police on the 31st October 2007
'He eventually made his way along Rua Dr Francisco toward the direction of Rua Dr Agostinho. At this time he was walking on the right side of the road passing the Tapas bar area to his left. He noticed the bad street lighting and although it was not completely dark there was enough light to see clearly. As he approached the corner of the McCanns apartment, he saw Gerry appear from the area of the gate. He crossed the road and engaged in general conversation with Gerry. At this time they were stood with Gerry's back to the building near to the gate and Jeremy facing him. Rua Dr Agostino was about 10-15 meters to his right and the pathway leading to the front of the apartment blocks about 5 meters to his left. He was adamant that he did not see any one else in the area. When spoken to in reference to Jane Tanner walking by, he again stated that he saw no one. He also stated that he did not see or hear anyone to his right. He was aware of the recent picture in the papers re the person with a child wrapped in a blanket and in a males arms allegedly walking across the junction to his right but again stated that he did not see any one.'
Or indeed in the Tapas timeline handed to the PJ on the 10th May 2007.
'2115: JT leaves table, and sees GM talking with fellow resident ("Jez" Wilkins) outside the patio gate of 5A. The two were standing just up the hill from the gate towards Rua A. da Silva Road. She did not speak to GM as she passed. '
The question also has to be asked that if the lighting was so bad in the street that Wilkins couldn't see Tanner within two feet of him, as the author postulates, how could Tanner see so clearly the pattern on the child's pyjamas who was being carried many more feet away ?
So much for investigative churnalism eh !!
Nothing fuzzy about Jez's memory..? From his rogatory:
When I left the street, I remember seeing Gerry on the other side of the same. I believe that there was some speculation in the press regarding the circumstances of this encounter. I remember that I crossed the street to talk to Gerry. According to what I remember, Gerry was walking when I spotted him. As I mentioned previously, I assumed that he had gone to check on the children and was headed back to the Tapas Bar. From what I remember, the conversation happened right there on the pathway but I am not certain who was located exactly where.
Relative to the time we conversed;
I am more certain of this than I am of our relative positions.
Another piece of baseless propaganda from Faithlilly - why am I not surprised!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 29, 2014, 02:36:52 PM
Nothing fuzzy about Jez's memory..? From his rogatory:
When I left the street, I remember seeing Gerry on the other side of the same. I believe that there was some speculation in the press regarding the circumstances of this encounter. I remember that I crossed the street to talk to Gerry. According to what I remember, Gerry was walking when I spotted him. As I mentioned previously, I assumed that he had gone to check on the children and was headed back to the Tapas Bar. From what I remember, the conversation happened right there on the pathway but I am not certain who was located exactly where.
Relative to the time we conversed;
I am more certain of this than I am of our relative positions.
Another piece of baseless propaganda from Faithlilly - why am I not surprised!
When is Wilkins memory of the event going to be clearest, seven months after the event or a year after the event ?
Wilkins memory of the visibility at the time :
'Q. Relative to the visibility and lighting conditions; I believe that the time I left it was dusk (the term lusco-fusco used in this statement is a Portuguese expression to define those brief moments when day and night intermingle in an undefined state, dusk, when day isn't still night) or nighttime when I returned and I do not remember if it was already dark when I spoke with Gerry. There were no weather conditions that impacted visibility. Given the lighting and the atmospheric conditions, I believe that it would have been possible to see if an individual was near but evidently, the greater the distance, the harder the difficulty in seeing. I would say that when I spoke with Gerry it was possible to recognize someone I knew who was passing on foot at the crossing at the top of the hill or to describe approximately someone unknown from that distance.'
Q. Relative to the passerby/transient I can affirm that it was a quiet street and it was very unlikely that someone could have passed by be in this way but this as an assumption and I do not remember anything having happened.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: John on September 29, 2014, 02:58:31 PM
Nothing fuzzy about Jez's memory..? From his rogatory:
When I left the street, I remember seeing Gerry on the other side of the same. I believe that there was some speculation in the press regarding the circumstances of this encounter. I remember that I crossed the street to talk to Gerry. According to what I remember, Gerry was walking when I spotted him. As I mentioned previously, I assumed that he had gone to check on the children and was headed back to the Tapas Bar. From what I remember, the conversation happened right there on the pathway but I am not certain who was located exactly where.
Relative to the time we conversed;
I am more certain of this than I am of our relative positions.
Another piece of baseless propaganda from Faithlilly - why am I not surprised!
He didn't appear to be too fuzzy back in 2007 when he did this sketch.
(http://i.imgur.com/lJOUU1x.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 29, 2014, 03:17:59 PM
He didn't appear to be too fuzzy back in 2007 when he did this sketch.
(http://i.imgur.com/lJOUU1x.jpg?1)
Indeed John.
There are only three ways Jez could have been standing
A) Facing Gerry in which case he would have seen Tanner pass behind Gerry B) Facing down towards the tapas bar in which case he would have seen Tanner approach C) Facing up towards the road junction in which case not only would he have seen Tanner as soon as She had passed Gerry but would very likely have seen the man carrying the child too.
There is simply no way around it and for the author's to suggest otherwise is disingenuous to say the keast.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 29, 2014, 04:13:52 PM
What is more likely, is they will write about a less contentious subject, after the debacle of this book.
The book is of no real importance to most people but you and faith seemed obsessed by it.......it's early to see how successful it will be..it's certainly raised their profile enormously...so how many copies has it sold...you haven't got a clue
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 29, 2014, 05:08:24 PM
The book is of no real importance to most people but you and faith seemed obsessed by it.......it's early to see how successful it will be..it's certainly raised their profile enormously...so how many copies has it sold...you haven't got a clue
No dave, wrong as usual.
I'm taking the pizz out of it.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 29, 2014, 05:09:24 PM
When is Wilkins memory of the event going to be clearest, seven months after the event or a year after the event ?
Wilkins memory of the visibility at the time :
'Q. Relative to the visibility and lighting conditions; I believe that the time I left it was dusk (the term lusco-fusco used in this statement is a Portuguese expression to define those brief moments when day and night intermingle in an undefined state, dusk, when day isn't still night) or nighttime when I returned and I do not remember if it was already dark when I spoke with Gerry. There were no weather conditions that impacted visibility. Given the lighting and the atmospheric conditions, I believe that it would have been possible to see if an individual was near but evidently, the greater the distance, the harder the difficulty in seeing. I would say that when I spoke with Gerry it was possible to recognize someone I knew who was passing on foot at the crossing at the top of the hill or to describe approximately someone unknown from that distance.'
Q. Relative to the passerby/transient I can affirm that it was a quiet street and it was very unlikely that someone could have passed by be in this way but this as an assumption and I do not remember anything having happened.
And yet his recollection was fuzzy, as proven by the rogatory, a source document for the book, you know, the one in which the authors "d............." wrote that he and Gerry's recollections were fuzzy. Should the authors have disregarded all information contained in the Rogs then in your view?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 29, 2014, 05:11:58 PM
When is Wilkins memory of the event going to be clearest, seven months after the event or a year after the event ?
Wilkins memory of the visibility at the time :
'Q. Relative to the visibility and lighting conditions; I believe that the time I left it was dusk (the term lusco-fusco used in this statement is a Portuguese expression to define those brief moments when day and night intermingle in an undefined state, dusk, when day isn't still night) or nighttime when I returned and I do not remember if it was already dark when I spoke with Gerry. There were no weather conditions that impacted visibility. Given the lighting and the atmospheric conditions, I believe that it would have been possible to see if an individual was near but evidently, the greater the distance, the harder the difficulty in seeing. I would say that when I spoke with Gerry it was possible to recognize someone I knew who was passing on foot at the crossing at the top of the hill or to describe approximately someone unknown from that distance.'
Q. Relative to the passerby/transient I can affirm that it was a quiet street and it was very unlikely that someone could have passed by be in this way but this as an assumption and I do not remember anything having happened.
He can't remember if it was. dark and only assumes that it would not have been possible for JT to pass him. Sounds pretty fuzzy to me!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: John on September 29, 2014, 05:33:43 PM
A victory for the "sceptics" then, well done. Your campaign of vitriol and spite has in effect forced the authors' hands. You must be delighted!
I don't think it is a victory...mob rule is never victorious...these [ censored word ]s are showing how unreasonable they are. The hate towards the mccanns was bad enough but it seems anyone who publicly supports them gets the same treatment. Showing just how nasty and unreasonable you are to an investigative reporter is not very clever
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 29, 2014, 05:47:13 PM
Not at all...they are probably astonished at the level of abuse they have experienced....next book will be an expose on hate sites on the internet
I agree that they will write about this in the future.
They have written a fairly innocuous book ... only to engender unprecedented attack ... it will certainly have given them an insight into the abuse suffered day and daily by the McCann family for over seven years.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: John on September 29, 2014, 05:50:59 PM
The words dishonest/dishonesty imply a will to deceive and unless this can be proven beyond doubt they should not be used. Acceptable terms would be inaccurate or mistaken or even disingenuous.
Posters please note this earlier instruction. Posts have been edited and/or removed accordingly.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: John on September 29, 2014, 06:00:30 PM
I agree that they will write about this in the future.
They have written a fairly innocuous book ... only to engender unprecedented attack ... it will certainly have given them an insight into the abuse suffered day and daily by the McCann family for over seven years.
Do you not think they knew what they were taking on when they made the conscious decision to write this book Brietta?
Is it not obvious that the launch of this book was timed to correspond with both the inquiry in Praia da Luz and the judgement in Lisbon.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 29, 2014, 06:26:28 PM
I don't think it is a victory...mob rule is never victorious...these [ censored word ] are showing how unreasonable they are. The hate towards the mccanns was bad enough but it seems anyone who publicly supports them gets the same treatment. Showing just how nasty and unreasonable you are to an investigative reporter is not very clever
I agree completely. Methinks the extraordinary vitriol this book has engendered will come back to bite the bile-spitters on the bum sometime soon. ?{)(**
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on September 29, 2014, 06:27:45 PM
Do you not think they knew what they were taking on when they made the conscious decision to write this book Brietta?
Is it not obvious that the launch of this book was timed to correspond with both the inquiry in Praia da Luz and the judgement in Lisbon.
I doubt they expected so much personal abuse...the reviews to the book are not mainly those who have read it...but part of a group who are almost full time critics of the mccanns
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 29, 2014, 06:31:14 PM
Do you not think they knew what they were taking on when they made the conscious decision to write this book Brietta?
Is it not obvious that the launch of this book was timed to correspond with both the inquiry in Praia da Luz and the judgement in Lisbon.
I know you weren't asking me, but I'd be very surprised if the authors fully appreciated just how much under attack they would become by the venomous Anti McCann brigade, simply for writing a reasonably fair account of the known facts of the case to date. Still, it's given them plenty of material for their next book.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on September 29, 2014, 06:41:19 PM
Do you not think they knew what they were taking on when they made the conscious decision to write this book Brietta?
Is it not obvious that the launch of this book was timed to correspond with both the inquiry in Praia da Luz and the judgement in Lisbon.
Well they know now, John.
They just hadn’t thought ahead to realise that what they were doing was the equivalent of putting a match to the holy Koran in the main street of Riyadh.
Then they shouldn't have had to.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 29, 2014, 10:48:01 PM
I know you weren't asking me, but I'd be very surprised if the authors fully appreciated just how much under attack they would become by the venomous Anti McCann brigade, simply for writing a reasonably fair account of the known facts of the case to date. Still, it's given them plenty of material for their next book.
Their next book ? @)(++(*
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 29, 2014, 11:18:43 PM
I have expressed my opinion on here and shown members where I think the authors have been less than ...... but I have neither left a review on Amazon nor posted about the book anywhere else so I hardly think I can be described as part of an 'online mob'.
As to trashing the author's reputation and livelihood, Summers has been a highly paid investigative journalist for over forty years so I don't think he'll be facing penury just yet and as to his reputation, that would have taken a strike with this book no matter what the sceptics had done ( which is why, I would guess, none of the broadsheets reviewed it ).
IMO Summers biggest mistake was claiming that the accusations that the McCanns had any part in their daughter's disappearance were unfounded in the blurb for his book. Maybe a few years ago that may have sold it but now people are just too knowledgable about the case or too jaded with regard to the McCanns for it to help. The public want the truth about Madeleine and the authors scored an atrocious own goal by telling them they were not going to get it before they had parted with a penny of their money.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Eleanor on September 29, 2014, 11:21:31 PM
That sounds like honesty to me.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 29, 2014, 11:48:39 PM
I fear your circle is a little restricted. This book isn't aimed at people like you. Or me for that matter.
This book is aimed at the book buying public and so far they don't seem greatly keen on Mr Summers tome.
Amazon is the largest book seller in the country and is a good yardstick by which to measure how the book is selling and according to them it's selling dismally.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Eleanor on September 30, 2014, 12:43:12 AM
This book is aimed at the book buying public and so far they don't seem greatly keen on Mr Summers tome.
Amazon is the largest book seller in the country and is a good yardstick by which to measure how the book is selling and according to them it's selling dismally.
That's what I mean. Amazon isn't the be all and end all of book sales. Basically just a place where certain types of people can say rude things about books they haven't read, and then congratulate each other about how ignorant they are.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on September 30, 2014, 01:02:40 AM
That's what I mean. Amazon isn't the be all and end all of book sales. Basically just a place where certain types of people can say rude things about books they haven't read, and then congratulate each other about how ignorant they are.
Amazon May not be the be all and end all but it is a good indicator of how a book is selling generally.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 30, 2014, 08:16:03 AM
I have expressed my opinion on here and shown members where I think the authors have been less than honest but I have neither left a review on Amazon nor posted about the book anywhere else so I hardly think I can be described as part of an 'online mob'.
As to trashing the author's reputation and livelihood, Summers has been a highly paid investigative journalist for over forty years so I don't think he'll be facing penury just yet and as to his reputation, that would have taken a strike with this book no matter what the sceptics had done ( which is why, I would guess, none of the broadsheets reviewed it ).
IMO Summers biggest mistake was claiming that the accusations that the McCanns had any part in their daughter's disappearance were unfounded in the blurb for his book. Maybe a few years ago that may have sold it but now people are just too knowledgable about the case or too jaded with regard to the McCanns for it to help. The public want the truth about Madeleine and the authors scored an atrocious own goal by telling them they were not going to get it before they had parted with a penny of their money.
you do make me laugh! if ordinary people (ie not those engaged in online McCann doubting for years) are shunning this book because it is so "poorly written and badly researched" then that is entirely down to people like you and your comrades in the struggle, leaving totally over the top negative reviews all over the net. If this really was the atrocious book you claim it is then it probably WOULD be have been reviewed by the broadsheets lamenting the sudden drop in standards of Summers' writing. The reason why it is not top of the bestseller lists in my opinion is that anyone interested in the case will know that the answer as to who has taken Madeleine is not to be found in this book. However, it is gratifying to see that Kate's book continues to sell so well years after publication, putting paid to your suggestion that the public is only interested in a book in which it woz the parents wot dun it.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 30, 2014, 08:28:16 AM
Can the merit of a book be judged by how many copies it has sold? The higher the sales the better the book, is that how it works?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on September 30, 2014, 08:29:32 AM
you do make me laugh! if ordinary people (ie not those engaged in online McCann doubting for years) are shunning this book because it is so "poorly written and badly researched" then that is entirely down to people like you and your comrades in the struggle, leaving totally over the top negative reviews all over the net. If this really was the atrocious book you claim it is then it probably WOULD be have been reviewed by the broadsheets lamenting the sudden drop in standards of Summers' writing. The reason why it is not top of the bestseller lists in my opinion is that anyone interested in the case will know that the answer as to who has taken Madeleine is not to be found in this book. However, it is gratifying to see that Kate's book continues to sell so well years after publication, putting paid to your suggestion that the public is only interested in a book in which it woz the parents wot dun it.
Firstly as I have said already I have not written a review but from what I can see there are nearly as many good reviews as there is bad so why is the book still not selling ?
Secondly how could the broadsheets criticise Summers book without suggesting that his research was bad and his conclusions faulty ? A catch 22 for the broadsheets and best avoided altogether.
As to Kate's book still selling, that simply proves that the public are more interested in misery memoirs than re examinations of cold cases, nothing more.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Benice on September 30, 2014, 11:53:25 AM
It's obvious that these authors found nothing in their meticulous research to incriminate the McCanns.
It is not a case of their being scared to purport other theories. They simply didn't find any other theories that could be evidenced or proposed as credible to print in their book. Hardly surprising as neither has anyone else in 7 years - including SY and the PJ.
Why is that so difficult to accept?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 30, 2014, 02:03:21 PM
Firstly as I have said already I have not written a review but from what I can see there are nearly as many good reviews as there is bad so why is the book still not selling ?
Secondly how could the broadsheets criticise Summers book without suggesting that his research was bad and his conclusions faulty ? A catch 22 for the broadsheets and best avoided altogether.
As to Kate's book still selling, that simply proves that the public are more interested in misery memoirs than re examinations of cold cases, nothing more.
The last time I looked the book had 2.5 stars, thanks to the efforts of the campaign against the book. I'm sure you'd agree that is hardly encouraging to the casual peruser of titles to buy.
Are you for real re: your second point?? Of course the papers could criticise the book for being poorly researched and badly written without writing anything libellous about the McCanns. You really do believe that everyone in the world, including the media, secretly thinks the McCanns dunnit but are afraid to say so don't you? Just how deluded are you?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 30, 2014, 02:10:34 PM
What was found that pointed to the couple or friends' guilt? Nothing. So why wouldn't the authors say so? Would you rather they say "although nothing was found to point at their guilt, we still think they dunnit, just because"?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 01, 2014, 07:47:24 PM
Another piece of slight of hand from our favourite authors when trying to explain why Gerry and Wilkins had not seen Tanner :
'It was already fairly dark- Tanner recalled the 'orangey' effect of the street lighting. The trio's memories were fuzzy on precisely where they had been standing or which way the had been standing as they chatted'
Nothing 'fuzzy' about Wilkins memory when giving his statement to the Leicestershire police on the 31st October 2007
'He eventually made his way along Rua Dr Francisco toward the direction of Rua Dr Agostinho. At this time he was walking on the right side of the road passing the Tapas bar area to his left. He noticed the bad street lighting and although it was not completely dark there was enough light to see clearly. As he approached the corner of the McCanns apartment, he saw Gerry appear from the area of the gate. He crossed the road and engaged in general conversation with Gerry. At this time they were stood with Gerry's back to the building near to the gate and Jeremy facing him. Rua Dr Agostino was about 10-15 meters to his right and the pathway leading to the front of the apartment blocks about 5 meters to his left. He was adamant that he did not see any one else in the area. When spoken to in reference to Jane Tanner walking by, he again stated that he saw no one. He also stated that he did not see or hear anyone to his right. He was aware of the recent picture in the papers re the person with a child wrapped in a blanket and in a males arms allegedly walking across the junction to his right but again stated that he did not see any one.'
Or indeed in the Tapas timeline handed to the PJ on the 10th May 2007.
'2115: JT leaves table, and sees GM talking with fellow resident ("Jez" Wilkins) outside the patio gate of 5A. The two were standing just up the hill from the gate towards Rua A. da Silva Road. She did not speak to GM as she passed. '
The question also has to be asked that if the lighting was so bad in the street that Wilkins couldn't see Tanner within two feet of him, as the author postulates, how could Tanner see so clearly the pattern on the child's pyjamas who was being carried many more feet away ?
So much for investigative churnalism eh !!
According to Summers and Swann "....she[Jane Tanner] had seen a man cross the road just yards from the McCann's apartment. It had not yet been completely dark and she had been able to see him fairly well.". Chapter 2 toward the end. Just quoting like.make of it what you will. Not that it's very important, DCI Redwood having "greased" Tannerman The Abductor about a year ago and all.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 03, 2014, 08:15:40 PM
Oh god the tape has completed the loop and Alfred is banging on again about corruption and torturing for which those heathen Portugee are peculiar (To nick a style from Bret Harte) We heard you the first time round pal and weren't impressed then.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 05, 2014, 09:37:56 AM
Web trolls unleash vile attacks on Irish-based Maddie authors Ralph Riegel Twitter
Published 05/10/2014 | 02:30
Anthony Summers and Robyn Swan, authors of Looking for Madeline. Photo: Michael MacSweeney/Provision
A vicious internet campaign has been unleashed against the Irish-based authors of a book about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
Anthony Summers and his wife, Robbyn Swan, have been subjected to a campaign of vile and sinister abuse, mostly via Facebook and Twitter, because their investigative book, Looking for Madeleine, vindicates her parents, Gerry and Kate McCann.
The veteran investigative reporters - who have written eight award-winning biographies between them - were taken aback by the personal nature of the online attacks.
"My daughter burst into tears over some of the things she read online. She was worried that her friends might read and believe the things that had been written about me," Robbyn told the Sunday Independent.
Robbyn and Anthony were tipped off during their two- year-long research for the book on Madeleine's disappearance in Portugal seven years ago that they too could become targets if their work was perceived as verifying the McCanns' account of what happened.
"As far as the internet trolls are concerned, we were informed about a week before our book came out that we should be very careful and alert to the possibility that our book would become a target for these people," said Robbyn.
"Sure enough, within days before the book was published it was being reviewed - despite the fact people couldn't have seen the book."
One of the Twitter trolls at the centre of vile comments about the McCanns, @sweepyface, also organised an internet campaign of negative reviews of the book. The authors, who live in west Waterford, say there is no evidence to link the McCanns with Madeleine's disappearance.
ANALYSIS PAGE 20
"The truth is that there isn't any such evidence," Anthony said. "The stuff on the internet is pure malicious drivel. I use those words carefully - malicious drivel. It is spew - it not about free speech. There were loathsome things said. This is an embattled couple who have vulnerable children. The very fact that vicious people are saying they should be hurt. . . it has the potential to trigger some fool to do something. So people should be extraordinarily careful here."
The couple have written or co-written eight bestselling books on Richard Nixon, Marilyn Monroe, J Edgar Hoover and JFK.
They were also shortlisted for the prestigious Pulitzer Prize for their 2011 book, The Eleventh Day which set out to tell "the full story of 9/11 and Osama bin Laden".
Sunday Independent - See more at: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ne ... KQI8W.dpuf
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 05, 2014, 09:39:31 AM
"Pure, malicious drivel" is how Anthony Summers sums up the online so-called evidence against the McCanns and he's not wrong.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Benice on October 05, 2014, 10:00:03 AM
"Pure, malicious drivel" is how Anthony Summers sums up the online so-called evidence against the McCanns and he's not wrong.
They are despicable lynchmobbers IMO - some of whom will no doubt regard the following as something to crow about.
Quote The veteran investigative reporters - who have written eight award-winning biographies between them - were taken aback by the personal nature of the online attacks.
"My daughter burst into tears over some of the things she read online. She was worried that her friends might read and believe the things that had been written about me," Robbyn told the Sunday Independent. Unquote
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on October 05, 2014, 10:05:24 AM
Summers and Swan of course came up with nothing new, just rehashed material.
Very original.
Nice to see more people now looking at the PJ files for themselves.
Making their own minds up, without the 'assistance' of 'S and S'.
Quote The veteran investigative reporters - who have written eight award-winning biographies between them - were taken aback by the personal nature of the online attacks. Unquote
Yeah right. Anyone can see that unlike your good self - it's obvious that the authors must have completely misread the files - or didn't have the brains to understand them.
Mega wishful thinking on your part IMO Stephen.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on October 05, 2014, 10:29:03 AM
Quote The veteran investigative reporters - who have written eight award-winning biographies between them - were taken aback by the personal nature of the online attacks. Unquote
Yeah right. Anyone can see that unlike your good self - it's obvious that the authors must have completely misread the files - or didn't have the brains to understand them.
Mega wishful thinking on your part IMO Stephen.
What new theories have they come up with ?
Answer.........NONE.
What was achieved by writing the book ?
Answer............NOTHING.
What was the point in writing the book ?
Answer.......THERE WASN'T.
However, they received an advance for the book. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on October 05, 2014, 10:38:05 AM
It's obvious that these authors found nothing in their meticulous research to incriminate the McCanns.
It is not a case of their being scared to purport other theories. They simply didn't find any other theories that could be evidenced or proposed as credible to print in their book. Hardly surprising as neither has anyone else in 7 years - including SY and the PJ.
Why is that so difficult to accept?
They're not detectives.
They're just journalists.
They've found nothing new.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on October 05, 2014, 10:49:30 AM
So how many copies have been sold..you still don't know
If the sales dave were high, you or other supporters would be broadcasting it and gloating.
They clearly aren't high, are they ?
Not even in the top 100 on kindle.
Doing well isn't it. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 05, 2014, 11:25:47 AM
I rather liked the interview with Len Port. Especially these edited highlights: How would you sum up the way in which the investigations have been conducted over the past seven years?
A muddle of events and developments, poorly reported and – because of the lengthy lapse of time after the case was archived – critically interrupted. Hopefully, with both nations’ police forces for some time now engaged in systematic fresh work, lost ground may be retrieved.
How relevant is the Gamble report discussed on Sky TV shortly before publication of the book?
The report written by former Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre head Jim Gamble and his team has not been released. In an interview for our book, Gamble discussed it, we believe, more openly and at greater length than ever before, and this was justifiably newsworthy. The inclusion of this self-critique of British law enforcement’s role in the investigation, from a senior source, was welcome and long overdue.The first Portuguese investigation has been widely criticised, often exaggeratedly and in a way that seemed xenophobic. The new openness from the UK’s Gamble may go some way to redressing the balance. Once it becomes ethically possible, Portuguese law enforcement may perhaps offer similar up-to-date background. Should that occur, we would be glad to report it in a new edition of Looking for Madeleine.[/i]
Well dave, as I said this morning, if the sales were good, you and your fellows would be gloating.
You aren't, despite the bluster earlier.
So dave, where is it in the book sales chart after about 3 weeks of extensive publicity ???
so how many have been sold....has it recouped its advance...how will it sell in the future with the recent publicity...you don't know
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 05, 2014, 05:32:18 PM
I don't recall this "sceptic" insistence on sales data when Kate's book was first published - funny that!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 05, 2014, 05:43:11 PM
When Summers & Swann make comments like: "It seems though that the officers who responded to the original alert did not lack in personal commitment" "with both nations’ police forces for some time now engaged in systematic fresh work" "The first Portuguese investigation has been widely criticised, often exaggeratedly and in a way that seemed xenophobic."
They can't be all bad can they? whatever the figures for book sales.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on October 05, 2014, 06:08:31 PM
When Summers & Swann make comments like: "It seems though that the officers who responded to the original alert did not lack in personal commitment" "with both nations’ police forces for some time now engaged in systematic fresh work" "The first Portuguese investigation has been widely criticised, often exaggeratedly and in a way that seemed xenophobic."
They can't be all bad can they? whatever the figures for book sales.
Right Reverend Host. "I’m afraid you've got a bad Egg, Mr. Jones!" The Curate. "Oh no, my Lord, I assure you! Parts of it are excellent!"
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on October 06, 2014, 08:26:05 AM
Interesting.
' S & S book has now sunk to 32,546 in the Amazon Bestsellers Rankings.'
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: jassi on October 06, 2014, 08:39:47 AM
This is not a scientific board and as I explained to you it is not acceptable to solicit personal information...as for pOH ...Stephen has already made a fool of himself over that
No I didn't Dave, you got it wrong.
There is no such calculation such pH - pOH as you claimed.
It is pH + pOH.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on October 09, 2014, 08:11:04 PM
When Summers & Swann make comments like: "It seems though that the officers who responded to the original alert did not lack in personal commitment" "with both nations’ police forces for some time now engaged in systematic fresh work" "The first Portuguese investigation has been widely criticised, often exaggeratedly and in a way that seemed xenophobic."
They can't be all bad can they? whatever the figures for book sales.
I find that fair.
So why was there an orchestrated effort to promote negative reviews on Amazon?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: slartibartfast on October 10, 2014, 01:08:47 PM
The only orchestrating viewable on Amazon is the 1 book reviews by clearly mccann supporters.
Nice.
Sorry Stephen, but I didn't understand your post. Do you believe the negative reviews were done by people who thought that the book was fair or good and probably believe The McCanns story, or by those who bought the book, despite the already bad reviews and gave further bad reviews? The book was not what many reviews made it out to be. I found it fair and to the point with facts known to date, only. They can't print what is yet unknown.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ferryman on October 10, 2014, 04:13:39 PM
Sorry Stephen, but I didn't understand your post. Do you believe the negative reviews were done by people who thought that the book was fair or good and probably believe The McCanns story, or by those who bought the book, despite the already bad reviews and gave further bad reviews? The book was not what many reviews made it out to be. I found it fair and to the point with facts known to date, only. They can't print what is yet unknown.
I think Stephen was trying to say that a number of positive reviews were written by people with no previous history of reviewing books.
And that there was some sort of "pro" orchestration to "big-up" the book ...
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Carana on October 10, 2014, 05:01:22 PM
Orchestrate implies an orchestrator? So who do you think is orchestrating?
From what I've observed, at least one person was encouraging others to post negative reviews with a view to lowering the Amazon rating. I'm not even sure that those who responded to the call to action had bought it, let alone read and had come to an objective view about it. Some may have done, but I doubt that all had done.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on October 10, 2014, 05:06:33 PM
From what I've observed, at least one person was encouraging others to post negative reviews with a view to lowering the Amazon rating. I'm not even sure that those who responded to the call to action had bought it, let alone read and had come to an objective view about it. Some may have done, but I doubt that all had done.
Don't forget Gurney who hadn't read the book and gave it 5 stars.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Anna on October 10, 2014, 05:15:44 PM
I think Stephen was trying to say that a number of positive reviews were written by people with no previous history of reviewing books.
And that there was some sort of "pro" orchestration to "big-up" the book ...
I must admit that I read a lot of books and buy a lot of other things from Amazon too, but seldom get round to doing reviews. I have done some book reviews, but not all that I have purchased.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 10, 2014, 06:31:49 PM
Is there anything more to say about this book after 69 pages? The sceptics think it's biased crap, the non-sceptics think it's the most definitive and objective account available on the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, what else can we bring to the thread?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 10, 2014, 06:38:40 PM
Is there anything more to say about this book after 69 pages? The sceptics think it's biased crap, the non-sceptics think it's the most definitive and objective account available on the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, what else can we bring to the thread?
For once I agree with Alfred wheeeeeee mark it on 't' calendar. To steal from Faithlilly, the book is like the curates egg; good in parts whichever side of the fence we are on. Some swear by it others swear at it.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Anna on October 10, 2014, 06:56:07 PM
Couldn't resist....I have checked all reviews Results:-
1 star....................7/49 had reviewed another book..........8/49 Purchase verified
5 star....................8/28 had reviewed another book..........8/28 Purchase verified
What do the figures tell you?
Please check and correct me if wrong
It tells me that if Amazon reverted to only allowing reviews from verified purchasers that the book would have 3.5 stars instead of 2.5 stars (there are also 3 out of 5 verified 4 star purchasers).
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ferryman on October 10, 2014, 07:13:11 PM
It tells me that if Amazon reverted to only allowing reviews from verified purchasers that the book would have 3.5 stars instead of 2.5 stars (there are also 3 out of 5 verified 4 star purchasers).
I gave the book 4 stars and I have certainly read it.
But I didn't buy it from Amazon, so I am one of the 'non-verified' 4 star reviewers ...
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Anna on October 10, 2014, 07:47:37 PM
I gave the book 4 stars and I have certainly read it.
But I didn't buy it from Amazon, so I am one of the 'non-verified' 4 star reviewers ...
I suppose it is reasonable that some others bought the book elsewhere too FM, but I believe it was said that the 5 star raters had not reviewed another book, but 28.6% had reviewed another book, whereas of the 1 star raters only 14.3% had reviewed another book.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on October 10, 2014, 07:51:49 PM
I suppose it is reasonable that some others bought the book elsewhere too FM, but I believe it was said that the 5 star raters had not reviewed another book, but 28.6 had reviewed another book, whereas of the 1 star raters only 14.3 had reviewed another book.
Where is the book in the sales charts, after a mere 3 weeks ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Anna on October 10, 2014, 07:55:04 PM
Where is the book in the sales charts, after a mere 3 weeks ?
You must search for that Stephen, but it was described as modest a week ago.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 10, 2014, 08:03:46 PM
Sales of this book have been deliberately harmed on Amazon by "sceptics" so it's no wonder the book is not doing well. Nothing to do with the quality of the book itself. One star reviews have a greater impact on online sales than 5 star reviews as this study suggests http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/30162409?uid=3738032&uid=2460338175&uid=2460337935&uid=2&uid=4&uid=83&uid=63&sid=21104788689177. So, congratulations "sceptics", you've done damage to the authors' livelihoods, you must be delighted! 8((()*/
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 10, 2014, 08:09:36 PM
An interesting article which explains the damage that malicious one star reviews can do to a book's sales on Amazon http://www.forbes.com/sites/suwcharmananderson/2012/08/28/fake-reviews-amazons-rotten-core/
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on October 10, 2014, 08:13:00 PM
Sales of this book have been deliberately harmed on Amazon by "sceptics" so it's no wonder the book is not doing well. Nothing to do with the quality of the book itself. One star reviews have a greater impact on online sales than 5 star reviews as this study suggests http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/30162409?uid=3738032&uid=2460338175&uid=2460337935&uid=2&uid=4&uid=83&uid=63&sid=21104788689177. So, congratulations "sceptics", you've done damage to the authors' livelihoods, you must be delighted! 8((()*/
Bullshi##e.
The book from what I've read of it is little more than a love letter to the mccanns.
Actually the word I would use is nauseating.
IMO of course. 8)-))) 8)--))
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Carana on October 10, 2014, 09:19:42 PM
An interesting article which explains the damage that malicious one star reviews can do to a book's sales on Amazon http://www.forbes.com/sites/suwcharmananderson/2012/08/28/fake-reviews-amazons-rotten-core/
Thanks for that link, Alfred, someone should have told poor old Charles that all an author really had to do was arrange to have false reviews posted on Amazon to boost his sales ... and conversely if there was an author around whose sales he wished to damage arrange false reviews saying how rubbish the book is.
I think it gives an indication of the character of people who are prepared to mount a campaign of spite to write false reviews on Amazon because research by the authors of LOOKING For MADELEINE did not turn up one iota of evidence that Madeleine's parents were involved in her disappearance.
Charles Saatchi sent one of Nigella Lawson’s personal assistants out four times a week to buy copies of his own book to send it up the bestsellers list, a court was told on Friday. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/charles-saatchi-made-me-buy-his-book-to-boost-it-up-charts-and-nigella-lawson-let-the-children-smoke-weed-pa-tells-court-9003590.html
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on October 10, 2014, 10:40:06 PM
Thanks for that link, Alfred, someone should have told poor old Charles that all an author really had to do was arrange to have false reviews posted on Amazon to boost his sales ... and conversely if there was an author around whose sales he wished to damage arrange false reviews saying how rubbish the book is.
I think it gives an indication of the character of people who are prepared to mount a campaign of spite to write false reviews on Amazon because research by the authors of LOOKING For MADELEINE did not turn up one iota of evidence that Madeleine's parents were involved in her disappearance.
Charles Saatchi sent one of Nigella Lawson’s personal assistants out four times a week to buy copies of his own book to send it up the bestsellers list, a court was told on Friday. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/charles-saatchi-made-me-buy-his-book-to-boost-it-up-charts-and-nigella-lawson-let-the-children-smoke-weed-pa-tells-court-9003590.html
To find evidence you must first look for it Brietta.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on March 28, 2015, 03:57:49 PM
I can't find a detailed reference to David Payne's visit to the McCann apartment at 6.30 in Summers book and wondered if anyone else can ? There is only a brief mention that he had seen Madeleine earlier in the evening of the 3rd but no time is mentioned or any details. Of course I could have simply missed it but it does seem rather strange that the last sighting of Madeleine by anyone other than her parents has been marginalised in Summers book and totally left out of the Crimewatch reconstruction.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: jassi on March 28, 2015, 04:04:43 PM
Almost as if it never happened.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on March 28, 2015, 04:06:21 PM
I can't find a detailed reference to David Payne's visit to the McCann apartment at 6.30 in Summers book and wondered if anyone else can ? There is only a brief mention that he had seen Madeleine earlier in the evening of the 3rd but no time is mentioned or any details. Of course I could have simply missed it but it does seem rather strange that the last sighting of Madeleine by anyone other than her parents has been marginalised in Summers book and totally left out of the Crimewatch reconstruction.
Neither is there mention of either inspection at villa or Gym.
Perhaps because all 3 are irrelevant, just as the stain removed from the boot of the Renault is irrelevant (neither mentioned in looking for Madeleine)
They struck a good balance, Summer and Swann.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Anna on March 28, 2015, 04:43:53 PM
Neither is there mention of either inspection at villa or Gym.
Perhaps because all 3 are irrelevant, just as the stain removed from the boot of the Renault is irrelevant (neither mentioned in looking for Madeleine)
They struck a good balance, Summer and Swann.
No mention of any of the Tapas group by name that I can see and S&S knew, that we could read all of that in the files.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: jassi on March 28, 2015, 04:47:59 PM
Hardly the point if you are writing a book, is it ? I mean, why bother writing at all when you can read everything in the files?
Yes you are correct Jassi, so perhaps there was restrictions to the Witness statements or using individuals names. It has been a while since I read it, so not sure. I will look later
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on March 28, 2015, 05:12:25 PM
Neither is there mention of either inspection at villa or Gym.
Perhaps because all 3 are irrelevant, just as the stain removed from the boot of the Renault is irrelevant (neither mentioned in looking for Madeleine)
They struck a good balance, Summer and Swann.
By no stretch of the imagination can the last time anyone saw Madeleine alive apart from her parents be called 'irrelevant'.
Couple that with Payne's non-appearance in Crimewatch ( in fact all the McCann's friends are mentioned by name expect the Paynes and Dianne Webster ) and it does make you wonder why he and his wife seem to be being systematically scrubbed from the case
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Anna on March 28, 2015, 05:45:03 PM
All of the tapas group are mentioned in the book(just had a quick look) and if you go to the end of the book, just before the footnotes, you will see an alphabetical list which includes their names and how many times they are mentioned and where.
Not word perfect:- David Payne who dropped in briefly at some time early evening and Madeleine's parents were the only people who saw Maddie between 5.30 pm and 10pm ......chapter 13 location 2395
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on March 28, 2015, 05:48:30 PM
All of the tapas group are mentioned in the book(just had a quick look) and if you go to the end of the book, just before the footnotes, you will see an alphabetical list which includes their names and how many times they are mentioned and where.
Not word perfect:- David Payne who dropped in briefly at some time early evening and Madeleine's parents were the only people who saw Maddie between 5.30 pm and 10pm ......chapter 13 location 2395
Thank you Anna that was the brief mention I was alluding to.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Anna on March 28, 2015, 05:52:54 PM
You are welcome, Faith. Such a brief visit was only worth a brief mention IMO. Nothing occurred on that visit, did it?
YES.
During the afternoon of that day the rest of the group members, including the children, were at the beach, [they] having returned at 18H30, the time at which he saw DP next to the tennis court. DAVID went to visit KATE and the children and returned close to 19H00. (GM 10 May)
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on March 28, 2015, 06:00:23 PM
During the afternoon of that day the rest of the group members, including the children, were at the beach, [they] having returned at 18H30, the time at which he saw DP next to the tennis court. DAVID went to visit KATE and the children and returned close to 19H00. (GM 10 May)
IIRC GM asked DP to call in on Kate - which he did - after which he went to his own apartment to get his tennis gear and returned to the courts. Is there something sinister about that?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 28, 2015, 06:09:42 PM
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE.htm http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm Err I, as I say I'm not sure you know what happened to Matt and Russell at that particular moment but I remember then you know I went over to see err Gerry at the err you know tennis courts, just to see you know what was happening, and err decided that we'd, you know I'd come, come back to play tennis and err Gerry had asked me just to pop in and check everything was alright err with Kate or you know again I can't remember the exact reason whether he was just making sure it was alright that he could stay there and you know more time but you know he'd asked me to pop in. So I walked back err from the tennis courts, err back to err you know Kate and Gerry's apartment and the time you know looking at, you know we've looked obviously at photographs since then and you know the time that we've got that I was you know going to Kate's about six thirty, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it's a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they've had such a great time, they're really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can't remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously Gerry wasn't there but they were just all, just so at peace and you know they looked like a family who'd had such a fantastic time and err yeah then I left there, went and got my stuff, went back to the tennis courts and then err there was me, Matt and Russell and I think Gerry played a little, for a little while but he decided that he'd, he'd played enough tennis for that day and err was going back and so it left with me, Russell and err Matt and err Dan who was the, the you know the tennis coach from Mark Warner.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on March 28, 2015, 06:17:27 PM
IIRC GM asked DP to call in on Kate - which he did - after which he went to his own apartment to get his tennis gear and returned to the courts. Is there something sinister about that?
Nothing.
So why is it being airbrushed from history ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on March 28, 2015, 06:19:48 PM
IIRC GM asked DP to call in on Kate - which he did - after which he went to his own apartment to get his tennis gear and returned to the courts. Is there something sinister about that?
Did he see her wearing a towel? Nope. Did Kate say he went inside? Nope. Did David say he did? You betcha.
485 "Did you actually go into the apartment'' Reply "I did.' 1485 "Or did you do the conversation from the door'' Reply "No, definitely was inside the apartment.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Anna on March 28, 2015, 06:22:57 PM
It was the last time anyone except her parents saw her and therefore a very important in establishing a timeline.
But he wasn't classed as an independent witness, same as Kate and Gerry. The police believed, there was a possibility of something happening, between 5.30 and 10pm that caused her disappearance. DP sighting was not taken into account. details of in...chapter 14 location 2403
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Benice on March 28, 2015, 06:26:08 PM
I wouldn't call it being 'airbrushed from history', but there is only a certain amount of time available to make a programme - and so you would use it to cover the most important events. DP's visit obviously wasn't considered important enough to be given priority over other aspects. IMO.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 28, 2015, 06:32:12 PM
But he wasn't classed as an independent witness, same as Kate and Gerry. The police believed, there was a possibility of something happening, between 5.30 and 10pm that caused her disappearance. DP sighting was not taken into account. details of in...chapter 14 location 2403
If Amaral had seen the Gaspar statements then things would have quickly changed. Parents and close friends are first suspects in these cases.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on March 28, 2015, 06:36:12 PM
Is David payne's visit to Apartment 5a a well-known part of the narrative of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann? Has it cropped up in previous documentaries, newspaper reports and articles, books etc? If the answer is "no" then it can't really be considered an historic moment that is being airbrushed out - IMO.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on March 28, 2015, 06:38:54 PM
I wouldn't call it being 'airbrushed from history', but there is only a certain amount of time available to make a programme - and so you would use it to cover the most important events. DP's visit obviously wasn't considered important enough to be given priority over other aspects. IMO.
The Crimewatch programme not only didn't mention the visit to Kate by Payne but didn't mention Payne by name at all, even though all the McCanns other friends were specifically named and while I take your point that a programme only has a finite amount of time to cover events the same can't be said of a book. So why did Summers leave out a detailed description of such an important event ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on March 28, 2015, 06:45:59 PM
Is David payne's visit to Apartment 5a a well-known part of the narrative of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann? Has it cropped up in previous documentaries, newspaper reports and articles, books etc? If the answer is "no" then it can't really be considered an historic moment that is being airbrushed out - IMO.
It was certainly re enacted in the Panorama programme screened in 2007 and included in Kate's book, many newspaper articles and several of the holidaymakers witness statements so I think it would be safe to concluded that it was a very important event within the 3rd of May narrative which has recently been buried. Why is the important question ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 28, 2015, 06:57:47 PM
It seems odd that the last "independent" sighting was omitted by S&S und CW but I incline to the view that there is so much horsh floating about in this case that a relatively significant piece of information could easily vanish* with some of the horsh.
*Accidentally that is; not with malice aforethought.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on March 28, 2015, 07:09:12 PM
It was certainly re enacted in the Panorama programme screened in 2007 and included in Kate's book, many newspaper articles and several of the holidaymakers witness statements so I think it would be safe to concluded that it was a very important event within the 3rd of May narrative which has recently been buried. Why is the important question ?
I can't think of any nefarious reason, but I'm sure if you tried hard you'd be able to come up with one.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Benice on March 28, 2015, 07:37:54 PM
Did he see her wearing a towel? Nope. Did Kate say he went inside? Nope. Did David say he did? You betcha.
485 "Did you actually go into the apartment'' Reply "I did.' 1485 "Or did you do the conversation from the door'' Reply "No, definitely was inside the apartment.
Does it really matter in the scheme of things whether he was just inside the apartment - as he remembers or standing at the open door - as Kate recalls? We're talking about something which took up a couple of minutes of the whole day - and which was so unimportant compared to what happened a few hours later it was probably forgotten about altogether for a while. Even when it was recalled why would anyone be expected to precisely remember every tiny detail of something which was so mundane at the time it happened.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on March 28, 2015, 07:40:21 PM
With access to all the files the archiving report states that there is no evidence of the McCanns committing any crime...I'm afraid you doubters need a dose of reality...the McCanns are not in the frame
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on March 28, 2015, 07:51:00 PM
With access to all the files the archiving report states that there is no evidence of the McCanns committing any crime...I'm afraid you doubters need a dose of reality...the McCanns are not in the frame
Yup. The reason this incident has been "airbrushed from history" is that it has no relevance to the investigation of an abduction, which is what is currently being investigated.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 28, 2015, 09:20:48 PM
Yup. The reason this incident has been "airbrushed from history" is that it has no relevance to the investigation of an abduction, which is what is currently being investigated.
Seeing as how the honcho in this, DCI Wall appears to have said sweet Felicity Arkwright about the direction her investigation is taking aren't you being a tad presumptuous?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on March 29, 2015, 08:08:33 PM
Seeing as how the honcho in this, DCI Wall appears to have said sweet Felicity Arkwright about the direction her investigation is taking aren't you being a tad presumptuous?
That's because there is Felicity Arkwright to tell governor. The days of the big budgets for wild goose chases are over.
As far as Summers and Swans book is concerned I've read more original content in the Beano. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on May 02, 2015, 10:28:06 AM
Madeleine Police Probe More Break-Ins Detectives are following a new line of inquiry, ahead of the eighth anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance.
By Martin Brunt, Crime Correspondent
British detectives searching for Madeleine McCann have discovered more of the holiday apartment burglaries they believe hold the key to solving the case.
They had been investigating 18 break-ins in which intruders entered the bedrooms of young, mostly British girls.
Now they are probing 28 such burglaries, Sky News has learned.
Forensic evidence is being tested against findings from the apartment from where Madeleine vanished eight years ago.
The development in the Scotland Yard investigation is revealed by authors Anthony Summers and Robbyn Swan in a new edition of their recent book Looking For Madeleine.
Summers said: "Our source told us that after stumbling across 18 burglaries last year, they have now discovered a total of 28 in the area of Praia da Luz in the years around 2007 when Madeleine disappeared.
"It gives them a much better chance of matching evidence against forensics from the McCann apartment.
"I was told there was great sensitivity around this forensic testing, nobody wants to discuss it, but they are making progress and believe the case is solvable."
The author said in the past few days the Home Office had agreed to continue its controversial funding of the British investigation which has now cost more than £10m.
Summers said: "Officials meet the police every three months to review spending and only last week told them there was no financial or political pressure to cut back."
Madeleine was nearly four when she vanished from the family's rented holiday apartment on 3 May eight years ago. It's thought she was abducted.
Portuguese police abandoned their investigation after 15 months without establishing any clues to the mystery and for three years there was no official search for Madeleine.
With Home Office backing, Scotland Yard began a review of evidence in 2011 and then launched a full-scale investigation two years ago.
The London branch leader of the police union the Police Federation said recently that funding of the investigation could not be justified in the wake of continuing public spending cuts which have hit all forces.
Madeleine's parents Kate and Gerry McCann have said they are "more driven than ever" to continue the search for their daughter. http://news.sky.com/story/1476413/madeleine-police-probe-more-break-ins?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: G-Unit on May 02, 2015, 11:43:10 AM
Is there a new edition of the Summers and Swan book?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: John on May 02, 2015, 02:03:08 PM
Madeleine Police Probe More Break-Ins Detectives are following a new line of inquiry, ahead of the eighth anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance.
By Martin Brunt, Crime Correspondent
British detectives searching for Madeleine McCann have discovered more of the holiday apartment burglaries they believe hold the key to solving the case.
They had been investigating 18 break-ins in which intruders entered the bedrooms of young, mostly British girls.
Now they are probing 28 such burglaries, Sky News has learned.
Forensic evidence is being tested against findings from the apartment from where Madeleine vanished eight years ago.
The development in the Scotland Yard investigation is revealed by authors Anthony Summers and Robbyn Swan in a new edition of their recent book Looking For Madeleine.
Summers said: "Our source told us that after stumbling across 18 burglaries last year, they have now discovered a total of 28 in the area of Praia da Luz in the years around 2007 when Madeleine disappeared.
"It gives them a much better chance of matching evidence against forensics from the McCann apartment.
"I was told there was great sensitivity around this forensic testing, nobody wants to discuss it, but they are making progress and believe the case is solvable."
The author said in the past few days the Home Office had agreed to continue its controversial funding of the British investigation which has now cost more than £10m.
Summers said: "Officials meet the police every three months to review spending and only last week told them there was no financial or political pressure to cut back."
Madeleine was nearly four when she vanished from the family's rented holiday apartment on 3 May eight years ago. It's thought she was abducted.
Portuguese police abandoned their investigation after 15 months without establishing any clues to the mystery and for three years there was no official search for Madeleine.
With Home Office backing, Scotland Yard began a review of evidence in 2011 and then launched a full-scale investigation two years ago.
The London branch leader of the police union the Police Federation said recently that funding of the investigation could not be justified in the wake of continuing public spending cuts which have hit all forces.
Madeleine's parents Kate and Gerry McCann have said they are "more driven than ever" to continue the search for their daughter. http://news.sky.com/story/1476413/madeleine-police-probe-more-break-ins?
Is Sky News and Martin Brunt so starved of real news these days that they have to rehash old speculations taken from the Summers and Swan book which was authored ages ago?
By the way, has anyone found anything new in the book which promised new insights into the Madeleine disappearance?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 02, 2015, 03:11:01 PM
Is there a new edition of the Summers and Swan book?
The paperback edition is doing out on the 7th I believe so Summers, it would seem, is yet again jumping on the nearest passing bandwagon to peddle is rather mouldy wares.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: jassi on May 02, 2015, 03:18:31 PM
Oh how dreadful - someone trying to cash in on Madeleine McCann.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 02, 2015, 03:22:05 PM
Is Sky News and Martin Brunt so starved of real news these days that they have to rehash old speculations taken from the Summers and Swan book which was authored ages ago?
By the way, has anyone found anything new in the book which promised new insights into the Madeleine disappearance?
Errr No! nothing, not a jot. If it wasn't for a little girl being left alone in an unlocked apartment to be 'abducted' whilst her loving and caring parents were eating and drinking...they would have not be writing such a book... cha ching!! Money money Money...
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 02, 2015, 03:51:01 PM
Errr No! nothing, not a jot. If it wasn't for a little girl being left alone in an unlocked apartment to be 'abducted' whilst her loving and caring parents were eating and drinking...they would have not be writing such a book... cha ching!! Money money Money...
Nor would Amaral have had the chance to profit off the back of a tragedy.
It is rather satisfying that his immoral earnings have been removed from him and given to a fund which will try to make up for the failure of his police colleagues to solve the case in the first place.
No one should profit from this. At least the McCanns have donated each tranche of money to the fund year after year.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Carana on May 02, 2015, 04:10:34 PM
Journalism is a profession like any other and it generally generates an income. I have no problem whatsoever with responsible journalism.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: jassi on May 02, 2015, 04:17:05 PM
Nor would Amaral have had the chance to profit off the back of a tragedy.
It is rather satisfying that his immoral earnings have been removed from him and given to a fund which will try to make up for the failure of his police colleagues to solve the case in the first place.
No one should profit from this. At least the McCanns have donated each tranche of money to the fund year after year.
So we are led to believe.
Can I asume from what you have written that you also disaprove of Summers & Swan ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 02, 2015, 04:41:00 PM
Nor would Amaral have had the chance to profit off the back of a tragedy.
It is rather satisfying that his immoral earnings have been removed from him and given to a fund which will try to make up for the failure of his police colleagues to solve the case in the first place.
No one should profit from this. At least the McCanns have donated each tranche of money to the fund year after year.
And how do you know that Ox ? The truth is you don't, and neither do I. Who's to say that money has not changed hands for interviews etc ?
Your mask of neutrality is slipping Ox. Didn't take long, did it ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 02, 2015, 04:47:05 PM
And how do you know that Ox ? The truth is you don't, and neither do I. Who's to say that money has not changed hands for interviews etc ?
Your mask of neutrality is slipping Ox. Didn't take long, did it ?
It is a personal opinion, not a fact. I think that a police officer who misuses his position and privileged information should not profit from his endeavours. I also believe the same of the McCanns but I am happy that we have seen each libel award paid into the fund and no evidence that it has been used to lead a lifestyle above that of any other senior consultant. No expensive holidays, no expensive cars, no expensive jewellery, no sign at all of unusual expenditure.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 02, 2015, 05:05:33 PM
It is a personal opinion, not a fact. I think that a police officer who misuses his position and privileged information should not profit from his endeavours. I also believe the same of the McCanns but I am happy that we have seen each libel award paid into the fund and no evidence that it has been used to lead a lifestyle above that of any other senior consultant. No expensive holidays, no expensive cars, no expensive jewellery, no sign at all of unusual expenditure.
Do you have any idea what the McCanns spend their money on because if not I'm afraid you are in no position to judge what ' unusual expenditure' would entail.
As to payments to the McCanns the libel payments, book revenue etc were all a matter of public record so there was no way of simply trousing those without some negative comment. However you can't exclude the possibility that the McCanns were also paid for interviews, photographs etc used by media outlets, can you ? You also have no way of knowing whether the couple have funnelled the extra money into property, squirrelled it away for another day or used it in a hundred different ways that would leave no outward sign of increased wealth. TBH with their refusal to pay €10 for a baby sitter and their acknowledged liking for the odd freebie the couple never did strike me as the type to throw their money about whether they had it or not.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 02, 2015, 05:20:32 PM
Now, if the S & S book was such a terrible flop with no one wanting to buy or even read it, why is it being released in paperback format...? &%+((£
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 02, 2015, 05:23:42 PM
Do you have any idea what the McCanns spend their money on because if not I'm afraid you are in no position to judge what ' unusual expenditure' would entail.
As to payments to the McCanns the libel payments, book revenue etc were all a matter of public record so there was no way of simply trousing those without some negative comment. However you can't exclude the possibility that the McCanns were also paid for interviews, photographs etc used by media outlets, can you ? You also have no way of knowing whether the couple have funnelled the extra money into property, squirrelled it away for another day or used it in a hundred different ways that would leave no outward sign of increased wealth. TBH with their refusal to pay €10 for a baby sitter and their acknowledged liking for the odd freebie the couple never did strike me as the type to throw their money about whether they had it or not.
And equally you have no evidence that it has been used for enrichment.
What we can say is that the lifestyle of the McCanns differs little from other Doctors at that level, if anything involving fear expensive holidays or school fees or other signs of high expenditure.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 02, 2015, 05:25:19 PM
Nor would Amaral have had the chance to profit off the back of a tragedy.
It is rather satisfying that his immoral earnings have been removed from him and given to a fund which will try to make up for the failure of his police colleagues to solve the case in the first place.
No one should profit from this. At least the McCanns have donated each tranche of money to the fund year after year.
Their OWN money? or other peoples? If you are going to show bias then please at least have some integrity, either it is WRONG for anyone to make money or it isn't.
The McCanns did not /have not had to pay for anything!
..and the fund is there to provide what?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 02, 2015, 05:26:03 PM
What are you sure of? In my experience publishers don't bother with a paperback edition of a book no one bothered to buy as a hardback, especially one that was heavily discounted to the price of a paperback. So, let's see some basis for your belief please.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 02, 2015, 05:26:26 PM
And equally you have no evidence that it has been used for enrichment.
What we can say is that the lifestyle of the McCanns differs little from other Doctors at that level, if anything involving fear expensive holidays or school fees or other signs of high expenditure.
But you agree that they could have made money from the media's interest in their daughter yet show no outward signs of the enrichment ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 02, 2015, 05:30:41 PM
Their OWN money? or other peoples? If you are going to show bias then please at least have some integrity, either it is WRONG for anyone to make money or it isn't.
The McCanns did not /have not had to pay for anything!
..and the fund is there to provide what?
I am talking about each tranche of libel money over the years. The McCanns would have been within their rights to retain the monies ( and the tapas crew as well) but we have seen the money bolster the Madeleine Fund year after year.
We know that no money has been paid to the McCanns because any payment or loan to a company director must be included in the summary of accounts to be published annually.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 02, 2015, 05:31:33 PM
Publishers have the whip hand with contracts. Authors have no chance.
If its being published in paper back the publisher sees money to be made there.
If a contract was signed which included the release of a paperback and if the publishers then refused to release the paperback the author would have a prima facia case for breach of contract I'm sure you'll agree ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 02, 2015, 05:33:32 PM
But you agree that they could have made money from the media's interest in their daughter yet show no outward signs of the enrichment ?
That would be a bit risky wouldn't it? We know how the media likes to stitch people up at the drop of a hat if it thinks it would make a good story. "We paid the McCanns thousands to appear on our studio sofa and the money never reached the Fund" would be a good angle don't you think?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 02, 2015, 05:34:23 PM
I am talking about each tranche of libel money over the years. The McCanns would have been within their rights to retain the monies ( and the tapas crew as well) but we have seen the money bolster the Madeleine Fund year after year.
We know that no money has been paid to the McCanns because any payment or loan to a company director must be included in the summary of accounts to be published annually.
But if either of the McCanns fulfills another position with the campaign in addition to their directorship ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 02, 2015, 05:34:57 PM
If a contract was signed which included the release of a paperback and if the publishers then refused to release the paperback the author would have a prima facia case for breach of contract I'm sure you'll agree ?
It doesn't work like that. Publishers decide on what editions, how many re-prints etc dependent on reader demand, not the author's demands. Ask your mate the Stud Muffin.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 02, 2015, 05:35:23 PM
And equally you have no evidence that it has been used for enrichment.
What we can say is that the lifestyle of the McCanns differs little from other Doctors at that level, if anything involving fear expensive holidays or school fees or other signs of high expenditure.
Apart from a meeting with heads of state, appearing on the Oprah show in USA where Maddie was not 'abducted from or to- as we believe, tripping round the world- NOT SEARCHING FOR MADDIE AT ALL, just bemoaning about people not searching...and dissing a whole country. Staying in exclusive hotels, having funds to pay top dollars for top lawyers...oh yes, many consultants live that life!..Heehee
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 02, 2015, 05:37:12 PM
I am talking about each tranche of libel money over the years. The McCanns would have been within their rights to retain the monies ( and the tapas crew as well) but we have seen the money bolster the Madeleine Fund year after year.
We know that no money has been paid to the McCanns because any payment or loan to a company director must be included in the summary of accounts to be published annually.
Money removed for expenses and other items are not included as 'income' we all know that ole chestnut abot charities as well don't we?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 02, 2015, 05:38:54 PM
That would be a bit risky wouldn't it? We know how the media likes to stitch people up at the drop of a hat if it thinks it would make a good story. "We paid the McCanns thousands to appear on our studio sofa and the money never reached the Fund" would be a good angle don't you think?
Why ? They would have been paid the money perfectly legally so where would the angle be ? Further by insinuating that they had done something ' not quite above board' with the money I'm sure the media outlet would be inviting the McCann's resident legal rottweilers to take a chunk of their profits.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 02, 2015, 05:40:23 PM
It doesn't work like that. Publishers decide on what editions, how many re-prints etc dependent on reader demand, not the author's demands. Ask your mate the Stud Muffin.
Contracts is contracts Alfie boy. Ask any lawyer !
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 02, 2015, 05:41:24 PM
Apart from a meeting with heads of state, appearing on the Oprah show in USA where Maddie was not 'abducted from or to- as we believe, tripping round the world- NOT SEARCHING FOR MADDIE AT ALL, just bemoaning about people not searching...and dissing a whole country. Staying in exclusive hotels, having funds to pay top dollars for top lawyers...oh yes, many consultants live that life!..Heehee
That was the case for a few months and most of the expenditure was under written by the press and supporters.
It is well documented that several benefactors guaranteed the legal fees.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 02, 2015, 05:46:17 PM
Contracts is contracts Alfie boy. Ask any lawyer !
You would know all about contracts between authors and publishers then I take it? Perhaps you could furnish us with an example of a book that flopped miserably in hardback but which the publishers were contractually obliged to throw good money after bad producing a paperback edition....?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Lyall on May 02, 2015, 05:48:36 PM
They're publishing it because it's the anniversary. That's all that needs to be said.
S&S must be miffed they missed including last week's judgement @)(++(*
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 02, 2015, 05:49:55 PM
That was the case for a few months and most of the expenditure was under written by the press and supporters.
It is well documented that several benefactors guaranteed the legal fees.
Legal fees... they have never been charged with anything! oh you talking about their 'reputation protection'? well yes, that is very costly, especially as they had to defend themselves against accusations of being cruel parents. and use lawyers to deflect the 'blame' of their situation onto other people!
Great what money can buy. I am surprised they have not ben given a super injunction to stop all talk about them unless it is positive.
In the meantime. if Maddie were found alive would you hate her for not wanting to be reunited with her parents after what they did? This is about JUSTICE for Maddie not for her parents!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 02, 2015, 06:24:19 PM
I am talking about each tranche of libel money over the years. The McCanns would have been within their rights to retain the monies ( and the tapas crew as well) but we have seen the money bolster the Madeleine Fund year after year.
We know that no money has been paid to the McCanns because any payment or loan to a company director must be included in the summary of accounts to be published annually.
Does that not apply only to companies subject to mandatory audit?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2015, 06:25:36 PM
Legal fees... they have never been charged with anything! oh you talking about their 'reputation protection'? well yes, that is very costly, especially as they had to defend themselves against accusations of being cruel parents. and use lawyers to deflect the 'blame' of their situation onto other people!
Great what money can buy. I am surprised they have not ben given a super injunction to stop all talk about them unless it is positive.
In the meantime. if Maddie were found alive would you hate her for not wanting to be reunited with her parents after what they did? This is about JUSTICE for Maddie not for her parents!
the SY investigation is about justice for maddie...it's a shame so many want to see it stopped
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on May 02, 2015, 06:28:02 PM
Legal fees... they have never been charged with anything! oh you talking about their 'reputation protection'? well yes, that is very costly, especially as they had to defend themselves against accusations of being cruel parents. and use lawyers to deflect the 'blame' of their situation onto other people!
Great what money can buy. I am surprised they have not ben given a super injunction to stop all talk about them unless it is positive.
In the meantime. if Maddie were found alive would you hate her for not wanting to be reunited with her parents after what they did? This is about JUSTICE for Maddie not for her parents!
We have no idea because it's against the law to talk about them.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 02, 2015, 06:32:10 PM
Does that not apply only to companies subject to mandatory audit?
No. All companies public or private must divulge payments and benefits to directors. They do not have to reveal other disbursements unless they are proxies for directors.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 02, 2015, 06:35:34 PM
We have no idea because it's against the law to talk about them.
Cite for that law?
There seems to be plenty of discussion on the internet.
It's just that the press and media respect the law. And it cannot be blamed on British libel laws as no one has used the more liberal US or Canadian arena where libel laws are less restrictive.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: G-Unit on May 02, 2015, 07:02:35 PM
There seems to be plenty of discussion on the internet.
It's just that the press and media respect the law. And it cannot be blamed on British libel laws as no one has used the more liberal US or Canadian arena where libel laws are less restrictive.
There are different types of injunctions and a super-injunction is the most powerful. A super-injunction stops anyone publishing information about the applicant which is said to be confidential or private - but also prevents anyone from reporting that the injunction itself even exists. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13473070
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 02, 2015, 07:16:40 PM
There are different types of injunctions and a super-injunction is the most powerful. A super-injunction stops anyone publishing information about the applicant which is said to be confidential or private - but also prevents anyone from reporting that the injunction itself even exists. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13473070
Injunctions are only effective in England and Wales. They do not even work in Scotland, Northern Ireland, The Republic of Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Portugal and the rest of the world. Nor the internet.
The British media are generally careful about what they say about the McCanns because they are constrained by English libel laws. Other jurisdictions are not so constrained and they are equally mind to the McCanns.
I am afraid your contention is mere paranoia.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on May 02, 2015, 08:55:33 PM
Apart from a meeting with heads of state, appearing on the Oprah show in USA where Maddie was not 'abducted from or to- as we believe, tripping round the world- NOT SEARCHING FOR MADDIE AT ALL, just bemoaning about people not searching...and dissing a whole country. Staying in exclusive hotels, having funds to pay top dollars for top lawyers...oh yes, many consultants live that life!..Heehee
Madeleine McCann’s parents had an age progressed image of her made in America to show how she might look as an older child ~ to maximize publicity ~ it was first aired on the Oprah Winfrey show.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 02, 2015, 10:48:51 PM
From the Daily Mail :
"Mr Summers is quoted as saying: 'Our source told us that after stumbling across 18 burglaries last year, they have now discovered a total of 28 in the area of Praia da Luz in the years around 2007 when Madeleine disappeared. 'It gives them a much better chance of matching evidence against forensics from the McCann apartment. 'I was told there was great sensitivity around this forensic testing, nobody wants to discuss it, but they are making progress and believe the case is solvable.'
'Their source' ? So is OG leaking like a sieve or is Mr Summers making it up and if the former will we see the same castigation of OG from the faithful as we saw towards the PJ when they were thought to be leaking information to the press ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2015, 11:11:54 PM
"Mr Summers is quoted as saying: 'Our source told us that after stumbling across 18 burglaries last year, they have now discovered a total of 28 in the area of Praia da Luz in the years around 2007 when Madeleine disappeared. 'It gives them a much better chance of matching evidence against forensics from the McCann apartment. 'I was told there was great sensitivity around this forensic testing, nobody wants to discuss it, but they are making progress and believe the case is solvable.'
'Their source' ? So is OG leaking like a sieve or is Mr Summers making it up and if the former will we see the same castigation of OG from the faithful as we saw towards the PJ when they were thought to be leaking information to the press ?
perhaps its a Portuguese leak
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: sadie on May 03, 2015, 12:04:08 AM
Madeleine McCann’s parents had an age progressed image of her made in America to show how she might look as an older child ~ to maximize publicity ~ it was first aired on the Oprah Winfrey show.
lol Yeah, they just had to go to America and appear on a show in a country that had no bearing on their missing child, did the take the smithmans pics as well? They did not need to go to America, I bet they had an agent who arranged this 'globe trotting'.
They showed Jammies same as Maddie was wearing saying Jane saw them as maddie was being abducted....Oh. dear...oopsie
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 03, 2015, 03:29:36 PM
lol Yeah, they just had to go to America and appear on a show in a country that had no bearing on their missing child, did the take the smithmans pics as well? They did not need to go to America, I bet they had an agent who arranged this 'globe trotting'.
They showed Jammies same as Maddie was wearing saying Jane saw them as maddie was being abducted....Oh. dear...oopsie
Whilst not gloating per se, would you agree that you never miss an opportunity to stick the boot in re: the McCanns? Your tiresome cynicism re: the couple in question rather detracts from every argument you attempt.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on May 03, 2015, 03:47:34 PM
lol Yeah, they just had to go to America and appear on a show in a country that had no bearing on their missing child, did the take the smithmans pics as well? They did not need to go to America, I bet they had an agent who arranged this 'globe trotting'.
They showed Jammies same as Maddie was wearing saying Jane saw them as maddie was being abducted....Oh. dear...oopsie
Allegedly Mr Amaral would have welcomed the opportunity to to grace Oprah's sofa ... wonder why she ignored him? Perhaps her researchers thought anything he might say would be worse than useless in finding Madeleine McCann; I think she has a proven track record in empathising with those who are in distress and needing help, so maybe she could see the bigger picture.
**snip “The Oprah show is seen by millions in the US and worldwide and they hope that these age progressed pictures will lead to the crucial sighting, which will bring their daughter home.
“There are a number of messages they want to get out there. It was felt, Oprah provided an appropriate platform.”
According to Portuguese newspaper, 24horas, former PJ inspector, Gonçalo Amaral has also contacted the Oprah show and requested he be allowed to give viewers his account of what happened to Madeleine McCann after she disappeared from Praia da Luz on May 3, 2007.
Gonçalo Amaral told 24Horas that he is doubtful anyone from the show will reply to him, but if he was invited, he would fly to the US at his own expense to take part in the show.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic10102.html
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 03, 2015, 03:53:25 PM
Whilst not gloating per se, would you agree that you never miss an opportunity to stick the boot in re: the McCanns? Your tiresome cynicism re: the couple in question rather detracts from every argument you attempt.
No. Not at all. I merely reply to posters in here when they try to pin a halo on heads which gives the Seriousness of Maddies demise a fairytale feel to it.
What I type is accurate. I am not getting at the parents, I have said many times they may have made a mistake, but I do challenge the make believe surrounding this case.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Eleanor on May 03, 2015, 03:54:17 PM
Summers and Swan. Off Topic Posts will be removed.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 03, 2015, 04:04:10 PM
One question that springs to mind following Summer's recent hawking of his wares
Is it really in the interest of the investigation for Summers to be publicising confidential information allegedly from that investigation in order to simply to sell a few more copies of his book ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 03, 2015, 05:09:59 PM
One question that springs to mind following Summer's recent hawking of his wares
Is it really in the interest of the investigation for Summers to be publicising confidential information allegedly from that investigation in order to simply to sell a few more copies of his book ?
No. But as he is not an officer of the court, be is free to under the laws on Free Expression which I hope we all respect- a free press being important.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 03, 2015, 05:14:36 PM
No. But as he is not an officer of the court, be is free to under the laws on Free Expression which I hope we all respect- a free press being important.
It may be legal but it is moral ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 03, 2015, 05:32:07 PM
"Mr Summers is quoted as saying: 'Our source told us that after stumbling across 18 burglaries last year, they have now discovered a total of 28 in the area of Praia da Luz in the years around 2007 when Madeleine disappeared. 'It gives them a much better chance of matching evidence against forensics from the McCann apartment. 'I was told there was great sensitivity around this forensic testing, nobody wants to discuss it, but they are making progress and believe the case is solvable.'
'Their source' ? So is OG leaking like a sieve or is Mr Summers making it up and if the former will we see the same castigation of OG from the faithful as we saw towards the PJ when they were thought to be leaking information to the press ?
Are people really so naive as to believe that Scotland Yard are leaking information to some author so that he can make announcements on their behalf? @)(++(*
Child abduction is a whole different ball game to petty pilfering from holiday apartments and people should realise this. Always keep in mind that this book was launched for one reason and one reason only, and that reason is to make money!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on May 09, 2015, 08:12:01 AM
Are people really so naive as to believe that Scotland Yard are leaking information to some author so that he can make announcements on their behalf? @)(++(*
Child abduction is a whole different ball game to petty pilfering from holiday apartments and people should realise this. Always keep in mind that this book was launched for one reason and one reason only, and that reason is to make money!
Yep. It's all about money.
S and S are a pair of amateur sleuths merely giving their biased opinion.
You merely have to read the opening line of the first version to the worship of the mccanns.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on May 09, 2015, 08:28:32 AM
I see posters are very unhappy that SY may be making some progress
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on May 09, 2015, 08:32:48 AM
I see posters are very unhappy that SY may be making some progress
Of course they are dave.
8)--))
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on May 09, 2015, 08:36:18 AM
I don't think it is unreasonable that as Grange is gagged by the Portuguese that one person working with Grange has released this just to counter the recent criticism in the press
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on May 09, 2015, 09:32:26 AM
The officers of Operation Grange may indeed be dismayed to read constantly that they are doing and achieving nothing and wasting taxpayers money while in the process. Summers and Swan as good investigative reporters may have tapped into that discontent.
I think that the PJ and SY are following the same lines of inquiry in solving the case and may be sharing what information they can ... what a pity the inquiries remain separate, if there had been a joint working arrangement in place it would have cut a lot of red tape.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on May 09, 2015, 09:50:21 AM
The officers of Operation Grange may indeed be dismayed to read constantly that they are doing and achieving nothing and wasting taxpayers money while in the process. Summers and Swan as good investigative reporters may have tapped into that discontent.
I think that the PJ and SY are following the same lines of inquiry in solving the case and may be sharing what information they can ... what a pity the inquiries remain separate, if there had been a joint working arrangement in place it would have cut a lot of red tape.
All S and S are doing is making money from a disappeared child.
End of.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on May 09, 2015, 09:59:10 AM
All S and S are doing is making money from a disappeared child.
End of.
6&%5%
They may even be managing to put the record straight on the many, many dire suppositions and inaccuracies which revolve around Madeleine McCann's case; there are people who do not like that one little bit.
... and in any case ... why should the devil be allowed all the good tunes? ?>)()<
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on May 09, 2015, 10:04:43 AM
They may even be managing to put the record straight on the many, many dire suppositions and inaccuracies which revolve around Madeleine McCann's case; there are people who do not like that one little bit.
... and in any case ... why should the devil be allowed all the good tunes? ?>)()<
Dream on brietta.
i'm sure the sales of the new version of the book will match the previous one. @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
As in, up #### creek without a paddle. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 09, 2015, 11:09:57 AM
The officers of Operation Grange may indeed be dismayed to read constantly that they are doing and achieving nothing and wasting taxpayers money while in the process. Summers and Swan as good investigative reporters may have tapped into that discontent.
I think that the PJ and SY are following the same lines of inquiry in solving the case and may be sharing what information they can ... what a pity the inquiries remain separate, if there had been a joint working arrangement in place it would have cut a lot of red tape.
Then you (and S&S... and Judy Finnegan) should have been campaigning against the xenophobia.
Instead S&S and Finnegan encouraged it.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on May 09, 2015, 11:19:57 AM
The officers of Operation Grange may indeed be dismayed to read constantly that they are doing and achieving nothing and wasting taxpayers money while in the process. Summers and Swan as good investigative reporters may have tapped into that discontent.
I think that the PJ and SY are following the same lines of inquiry in solving the case and may be sharing what information they can ... what a pity the inquiries remain separate, if there had been a joint working arrangement in place it would have cut a lot of red tape.
I'm sure the officers of OG will be more dismayed to find that Summers is leaking information which, allegedly, comes from their investigation and which has no right to be in the public domain at this time.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Lyall on May 09, 2015, 11:27:11 AM
If there had been no journalists reporting on this case, we may never have heard of her.
I find that there is a world of difference between earning a living for professional work and peddling sensationalism at others' expense.
Stephen is right, the book adds nothing to what those of us who follow the case every day already know. Making money out of Madeleine is a despicable way to earn a living. Profession? pah
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Lyall on May 09, 2015, 11:54:35 AM
No. You will have to provide a quote from it to progress your argument.
Too late for arguments or discussion now, Brietta. Their xenophobic articles and books will be around for ever, as much a part of history now as Ed Miliband's huge stone slab.
But, basically, both S&S and Finnegan used the Met's claim of eighteen unresolved incidents to tarnish the entire region (and country).
Hardly likely to encourage the Portuguese to welcome a joint investigation I would think.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on May 09, 2015, 11:55:06 AM
Remember their Telegraph article 'If only the McCanns had known about the Algarve'?
The Algarve is a much safer holiday destination than many other popular resorts on the Iberian peninsula which renders the Telegraph article just a tad more waffle.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on May 09, 2015, 11:59:10 AM
Too late for arguments or discussion now, Brietta. Their xenophobic articles and books will be around for ever, as much a part of history now as Ed Miliband's huge stone slab.
But, basically, both S&S and Finnegan used the Met's claim of eighteen unresolved incidents to tarnish the entire region (and country).
Hardly likely to encourage the Portuguese to welcome a joint investigation I would think.
What have the Swiss complained about?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Lyall on May 09, 2015, 12:11:35 PM
The Algarve is a much safer holiday destination than many other popular resorts on the Iberian peninsula which renders the Telegraph article just a tad more waffle.
Indeed. Quoting from the book: "Had Gerry and Kate McCann known of the history of sexual assaults on tourists' children in Praia da Luz and the surrounding area, they would surely not have left their patio door unlocked to make dinner-time checks on their children easier."
At no time did the Met describe them all as "sexual assaults".
Deliberate embellishment by S&S.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 09, 2015, 12:23:58 PM
Are people really so naive as to believe that Scotland Yard are leaking information to some author so that he can make announcements on their behalf? @)(++(*
Child abduction is a whole different ball game to petty pilfering from holiday apartments and people should realise this. Always keep in mind that this book was launched for one reason and one reason only, and that reason is to make money!
Unfortunately one hell of a lot are.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Carana on May 09, 2015, 12:24:33 PM
Too late for arguments or discussion now, Brietta. Their xenophobic articles and books will be around for ever, as much a part of history now as Ed Miliband's huge stone slab.
But, basically, both S&S and Finnegan used the Met's claim of eighteen unresolved incidents to tarnish the entire region (and country).
Hardly likely to encourage the Portuguese to welcome a joint investigation I would think.
I have no idea who Finnegan is, so I won't comment on that.
As regards the headline in The Telegraph article, I agree that it is potentially inflammatory for the thin-skinned, but AFAIK it's not normally those who write articles who dream up the headline.
I found the book fair, factual (despite a couple of gremlins that got through the editing process) and well-written. I haven't read the updated paperback version yet and it has been a while since I read the original version.
I don't see anyone moaning about the revelation that the scoping exercise was critical of some aspects of the UK law enforcement agencies' uncoordinated attempts to support the PJ, for example.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 09, 2015, 12:33:37 PM
I have no idea who Finnegan is, so I won't comment on that.
As regards the headline in The Telegraph article, I agree that it is potentially inflammatory for the thin-skinned, but AFAIK it's not normally those who write articles who dream up the headline.
I found the book fair, factual (despite a couple of gremlins that got through the editing process) and well-written. I haven't read the updated paperback version yet and it has been a while since I read the original version.
I don't see anyone moaning about the revelation that the scoping exercise was critical of some aspects of the UK law enforcement agencies' uncoordinated attempts to support the PJ, for example.
Wasn't that Jim Gamble's belief and not the authors ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Benice on May 09, 2015, 12:35:25 PM
Indeed. Quoting from the book: "Had Gerry and Kate McCann known of the history of sexual assaults on tourists' children in Praia da Luz and the surrounding area, they would surely not have left their patio door unlocked to make dinner-time checks on their children easier."
At no time did the Met describe them all as "sexual assaults".
Deliberate embellishment by S&S.
Quote from the Guardian re the appeal made by SY for more information from the public regarding the assaults on British children in the Algarve.
Quote:
Det Ch Insp Andy Redwood said: "As a result of those 500 calls, we have now identified a further five sexual assaults and one near miss. None of those six matters we were aware of prior to our appeal.
Unquote
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on May 09, 2015, 12:37:59 PM
I'm sure the officers of OG will be more dismayed to find that Summers is leaking information which, allegedly, comes from their investigation and which has no right to be in the public domain at this time.
I think that after all the criticism of Grange they will be quite pleased
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Lyall on May 09, 2015, 12:38:18 PM
Quote from the Guardian re the appeal made by SY for more information from the public regarding the assaults on British children in the Algarve.
Quote:
Det Ch Insp Andy Redwood said: "As a result of those 500 calls, we have now identified a further five sexual assaults and one near miss. None of those six matters we were aware of prior to our appeal.
Unquote
The Met, in official documents, did not.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: G-Unit on May 09, 2015, 12:38:50 PM
Indeed. Quoting from the book: "Had Gerry and Kate McCann known of the history of sexual assaults on tourists' children in Praia da Luz and the surrounding area, they would surely not have left their patio door unlocked to make dinner-time checks on their children easier."
At no time did the Met describe them all as "sexual assaults".
Deliberate embellishment by S&S.
And here was I thinking that the patio door was left unlocked for the children's benefit, not the parent's;
'She did, she brought it up and that she, I mean, this is awful in retrospect as well, she asked what my opinion was on, erm, tut, on whether they were okay leaving the, the doors unlocked, because she was saying 'Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or', erm, 'or locking it and, you know, finding that we're not there and the door's locked if she woke up', because Madeleine had woken up, what I thought was the night before. Erm, tut, and it was in that context really, just asking, you know, what I thought. So it was obviously something that was on her mind a bit, huh'.
Kate, I think, had done something that she wasn't quite happy with, in leaving the doors unlocked. And that is something again that she is going to beat herself up about for a long time to come because, you know, you, you like think that you acted on your instincts and I think her instinct was that that was something she wasn't really happy to do'.
She says they felt so safe at the "family-friendly" resort they didn't think twice about leaving Madeleine and the twins - and she reveals how they'd left them alone every evening as they ate dinner in the week until Madeleine was taken on a Thursday night.
But she admits it was a decision that torments her with every waking moment. "We've doubted what we did," Kate says. "It's hard to answer the question, 'Were we wrong to leave them?' If I'd had to think for one second, 'Should we have dinner and leave them?' I wouldn't have done it. http://www.mccannfiles.com/id16.html
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Benice on May 09, 2015, 12:43:42 PM
You accused S&S of 'deliberate embellishment' on the grounds that the Met have never described the assaults as 'sexual'.
The Guardian's article in which they include the following direct quote from DCI Redwood shows that they did describe the assaults as sexual.
Det Ch Insp Andy Redwood said: "As a result of those 500 calls, we have now identified a further five sexual assaults and one near miss. None of those six matters we were aware of prior to our appeal. unquote
So no embellishment at all by S&S.
IMO to accuse them of 'deliberate embellishment' - as if it were a proven fact is libellous IMO.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Lyall on May 10, 2015, 02:07:13 PM
You accused S&S of 'deliberate embellishment' on the grounds that the Met have never described the assaults as 'sexual'.
The Guardian's article in which they include the following direct quote from DCI Redwood shows that they did describe the assaults as sexual.
Det Ch Insp Andy Redwood said: "As a result of those 500 calls, we have now identified a further five sexual assaults and one near miss. None of those six matters we were aware of prior to our appeal. unquote
So no embellishment at all by S&S.
IMO to accuse them of 'deliberate embellishment' - as if it were a proven fact is libellous IMO.
The Met appeal that accompanied March 2014's Crimewatch.
Officers from Operation Grange investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann have today issued a further appeal for information.
During the course of their enquiries, officers have identified a potential linked series of twelve crimes which occurred between 2004 and 2010, mostly in low season, whereby a male intruder has gained access to mainly holiday villas occupied by UK families on holiday in the Western Algarve.
That one.
It's not libellous. It's merely recognition that while they could for accuracy have included the full text of the Met appeal (and update) in their books, they instead - as you say - use the words Redwood used when in front of cameras or talking to journalists.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 12, 2015, 12:59:13 AM
Seems, according to Summers, all the negative reviews of his book was coordinated by Brenda Leyland.
I always wondered why she was specifically targeted. Now I think we know.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on May 12, 2015, 07:36:40 AM
Seems, according to Summers, all the negative reviews of his book was coordinated by Brenda Leyland.
I always wondered why she was specifically targeted. Now I think we know.
Brenda was a victim of this online attack against the mccanns of which you are a part. She was a victim of the lies told by amaral which encouraged her to attack the McCanns. She was a victim of the continues lies propagated online. Brenda was a victim....but not of the MSM...she was a victim of the campaign against the McCanns
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 12, 2015, 08:01:27 AM
Brenda was a victim of this online attack against the mccanns of which you are a part. She was a victim of the lies told by amaral which encouraged her to attack the McCanns. She was a victim of the continues lies propagated online. Brenda was a victim....but not of the MSM...she was a victim of the campaign against the McCanns
&%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on May 12, 2015, 09:02:26 AM
Brenda was a victim of this online attack against the mccanns of which you are a part. She was a victim of the lies told by amaral which encouraged her to attack the McCanns. She was a victim of the continues lies propagated online. Brenda was a victim....but not of the MSM...she was a victim of the campaign against the McCanns
Blame everyone else but those really responsible, where have I seen that before???? £5%4%
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 12, 2015, 09:22:03 AM
What's the link between Summers and Swan and Sky News?
From the updated version of Looking for Madeleine :
' In September 2014, the day before Looking for Madeleine went on sale, a colleague let us know that members of anti- McCann Facebook groups were already labelling the book pro- McCann 'propoganda' and urging a 'fightback' . On Twitter two female anti- McCann zealots , one using the username @sweepyface- later to be identified as Brenda Leyland- the other using @portugalonline, an American maned Isabelle McFadden, discussed the notion of flooding Amazon with bad reviews. 'We need a concentrated effort on Amazon,' Leyland tweeted, 'it is really affective.'
Customer reviews on Amazon's website, which rate books by allocating stars, can have a powerful effect. Potential buyers are encouraged to say sheet a customer review of a book was helpful- or not. The more people mark a review as helpful, the more potentially that review is displayed. 'The effect of a bad review,' author Robert Groese has explained, goes far beyond the impact it gas on the author's ego.......the prominence of a book on Amazon.com is dictated by two factors: how well the book has sold and how positive the reviews are. More highly rated books are displayed more prominently, which leads to more sales.'
Brenda Leyland's and Isabelle McFadden's negative reviews, which both gave Looking for Madeleine just one star- the lowest rating- appeared rapidly on the book's Amazon sales page. Leyland also posted negative comments on some of the good reviews that had begun to appear. McFadden, who by her own admission did not have the book, based her 'review' on fifty pages she said had been emailed to her. 'I urge anyone in a position to do so,' Leyland tweeted, ' to comment on Amazon in response to the S&S ( Summers and Swann) book.......the star ratings are going down.'
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on May 12, 2015, 10:27:05 AM
From the updated version of Looking for Madeleine :
' In September 2014, the day before Looking for Madeleine went on sale, a colleague let us know that members of anti- McCann Facebook groups were already labelling the book pro- McCann 'propoganda' and urging a 'fightback' . On Twitter two female anti- McCann zealots , one using the username @sweepyface- later to be identified as Brenda Leyland- the other using @portugalonline, an American maned Isabelle McFadden, discussed the notion of flooding Amazon with bad reviews. 'We need a concentrated effort on Amazon,' Leyland tweeted, 'it is really affective.'
Customer reviews on Amazon's website, which rate books by allocating stars, can have a powerful effect. Potential buyers are encouraged to say sheet a customer review of a book was helpful- or not. The more people mark a review as helpful, the more potentially that review is displayed. 'The effect of a bad review,' author Robert Groese has explained, goes far beyond the impact it gas on the author's ego.......the prominence of a book on Amazon.com is dictated by two factors: how well the book has sold and how positive the reviews are. More highly rated books are displayed more prominently, which leads to more sales.'
Brenda Leyland's and Isabelle McFadden's negative reviews, which both gave Looking for Madeleine just one star- the lowest rating- appeared rapidly on the book's Amazon sales page. Leyland also posted negative comments on some of the good reviews that had begun to appear. McFadden, who by her own admission did not have the book, based her 'review' on fifty pages she said had been emailed to her. 'I urge anyone in a position to do so,' Leyland tweeted, ' to comment on Amazon in response to the S&S ( Summers and Swann) book.......the star ratings are going down.'
It seems S and S aren't too happy.
They haven't come to terms with the fact their book had poor sales.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: John on May 12, 2015, 10:47:28 AM
From the updated version of Looking for Madeleine :
' In September 2014, the day before Looking for Madeleine went on sale, a colleague let us know that members of anti- McCann Facebook groups were already labelling the book pro- McCann 'propoganda' and urging a 'fightback' . On Twitter two female anti- McCann zealots , one using the username @sweepyface- later to be identified as Brenda Leyland- the other using @portugalonline, an American maned Isabelle McFadden, discussed the notion of flooding Amazon with bad reviews. 'We need a concentrated effort on Amazon,' Leyland tweeted, 'it is really affective.'
Customer reviews on Amazon's website, which rate books by allocating stars, can have a powerful effect. Potential buyers are encouraged to say sheet a customer review of a book was helpful- or not. The more people mark a review as helpful, the more potentially that review is displayed. 'The effect of a bad review,' author Robert Groese has explained, goes far beyond the impact it gas on the author's ego.......the prominence of a book on Amazon.com is dictated by two factors: how well the book has sold and how positive the reviews are. More highly rated books are displayed more prominently, which leads to more sales.'
Brenda Leyland's and Isabelle McFadden's negative reviews, which both gave Looking for Madeleine just one star- the lowest rating- appeared rapidly on the book's Amazon sales page. Leyland also posted negative comments on some of the good reviews that had begun to appear. McFadden, who by her own admission did not have the book, based her 'review' on fifty pages she said had been emailed to her. 'I urge anyone in a position to do so,' Leyland tweeted, ' to comment on Amazon in response to the S&S ( Summers and Swann) book.......the star ratings are going down.'
BL was quick to point out that it was her right to criticise and comment on the McCanns.
And yet she actively incited fellow sceptics to influence the public NOT to buy the S&S book - by posting negative reviews - with the sole aim of stifling interest and to persuade as many people as possible NOT to read someone else's comments on the case - simply because they did not concur with her own.
It seems Brenda Leyland supported Free Speech - but only for herself and her fellow sceptics..
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on May 12, 2015, 11:15:13 AM
like most sceptics you really struggle with what is and isn't true...nowhere do S&S blame Leyland for all the bad reviews..you are making things up...
That's original dave.
'Sceptics'.
Face the truth, the book was 'C###'.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Carana on May 12, 2015, 11:47:45 AM
I'd be interested in Jean-Pierre's view on this attack on Amazon reviews, if he pops in here.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on May 12, 2015, 01:47:10 PM
Ignoring the dishonesty, there is something rather desperate and malign about people who organised themselves to post bad reviews about a book they have neither purchased or read, because someone has told them the content confirms the inaccuracy of much of the material they have used to construct a hostile campaign against the parents of a missing child.
Their demand allegedly for Justice and Freedom of Speech is rather at odds with the way in which they revel in the metaphorical Amazon book burning combined with their disregard for right to the presumption of innocence shows them in a rather hypocritical light.
One wonders why they fail to grasp that ... everyone else does.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Carana on May 12, 2015, 01:56:51 PM
Ignoring the dishonesty, there is something rather desperate and malign about people who organised themselves to post bad reviews about a book they have neither purchased or read, because someone has told them the content confirms the inaccuracy of much of the material they have used to construct a hostile campaign against the parents of a missing child.
Their demand allegedly for Justice and Freedom of Speech is rather at odds with the way in which they revel in the metaphorical Amazon book burning combined with their disregard for right to the presumption of innocence shows them in a rather hypocritical light.
One wonders why they fail to grasp that ... everyone else does.
It's a bit like giving a restaurant the worst review possible about the quality of the food, even if you hadn't even eaten there, because you take umbrage at the fact that a much-hated client once ate there.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 12, 2015, 02:02:19 PM
From the updated version of Looking for Madeleine :
' In September 2014, the day before Looking for Madeleine went on sale, a colleague let us know that members of anti- McCann Facebook groups were already labelling the book pro- McCann 'propoganda' and urging a 'fightback' . On Twitter two female anti- McCann zealots , one using the username @sweepyface- later to be identified as Brenda Leyland- the other using @portugalonline, an American maned Isabelle McFadden, discussed the notion of flooding Amazon with bad reviews. 'We need a concentrated effort on Amazon,' Leyland tweeted, 'it is really affective.'
Customer reviews on Amazon's website, which rate books by allocating stars, can have a powerful effect. Potential buyers are encouraged to say sheet a customer review of a book was helpful- or not. The more people mark a review as helpful, the more potentially that review is displayed. 'The effect of a bad review,' author Robert Groese has explained, goes far beyond the impact it gas on the author's ego.......the prominence of a book on Amazon.com is dictated by two factors: how well the book has sold and how positive the reviews are. More highly rated books are displayed more prominently, which leads to more sales.'
Brenda Leyland's and Isabelle McFadden's negative reviews, which both gave Looking for Madeleine just one star- the lowest rating- appeared rapidly on the book's Amazon sales page. Leyland also posted negative comments on some of the good reviews that had begun to appear. McFadden, who by her own admission did not have the book, based her 'review' on fifty pages she said had been emailed to her. 'I urge anyone in a position to do so,' Leyland tweeted, ' to comment on Amazon in response to the S&S ( Summers and Swann) book.......the star ratings are going down.'
That all sounds like fair comment to me - unless you are disputing what S & S have written? But where do you get the idea that BL was targeted by Sky News because of her malicious campaign against the authors of a book?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Benice on May 12, 2015, 02:23:37 PM
Ignoring the dishonesty, there is something rather desperate and malign about people who organised themselves to post bad reviews about a book they have neither purchased or read, because someone has told them the content confirms the inaccuracy of much of the material they have used to construct a hostile campaign against the parents of a missing child.
Their demand allegedly for Justice and Freedom of Speech is rather at odds with the way in which they revel in the metaphorical Amazon book burning combined with their disregard for right to the presumption of innocence shows them in a rather hypocritical light.
One wonders why they fail to grasp that ... everyone else does.
Indeed.
IMO - BL must have been very impressed with S&S book to actually be thinking of ways to suppress its sales.
In the end she could only come up with the promotion of a 'Dirty Trick's campaign. 'Cheating' - which IMO is what she was advocating - is hardly something to be proud of as it can only ever result in a hollow victory - ''and a hollow victory is not very satisfying as it means that you have reached your goal, but lost something more important along the way''
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 12, 2015, 03:33:48 PM
It's bizarre the way that S & S are somehow being painted as the bad guys here, when all they are doing is commenting on the hate campaign against their book, and yet at the same time one of the ringleaders of the hate campaign is revered in almost saintly tones. It's a funny old world.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 12, 2015, 03:42:07 PM
It's bizarre the way that S & S are somehow being painted as the bad guys here, when all they are doing is commenting on the hate campaign against their book, and yet at the same time one of the ringleaders of the hate campaign is revered in almost saintly tones. It's a funny old world.
It ever was thus and no doubt ever more shall be so. The bizarre thing is that you find it bizarre, it is after all merely human nature. [do not read into my statement more than is there ?>)()<]
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 12, 2015, 04:58:15 PM
It ever was thus and no doubt ever more shall be so. The bizarre thing is that you find it bizarre, it is after all merely human nature. [do not read into my statement more than is there ?>)()<]
What is bizarre is that you should find it bizarre that I find it bizarre that in the world of the sceptic everything is completely topsy-turvy.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 12, 2015, 07:03:35 PM
Anyway, as I was saying before I was so rudely interrupted:
It's bizarre the way that S & S are somehow being painted as the bad guys here, when all they are doing is commenting on the hate campaign against their book, and yet at the same time one of the ringleaders of the hate campaign is revered in almost saintly tones. It's a funny old world, and no mistake!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on May 12, 2015, 07:27:10 PM
Anyway, as I was saying before I was so rudely interrupted:
It's bizarre the way that S & S are somehow being painted as the bad guys here, when all they are doing is commenting on the hate campaign against their book, and yet at the same time one of the ringleaders of the hate campaign is revered in almost saintly tones. It's a funny old world, and no mistake!
So S and S, making money from Madeleine is OK then ???
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: mercury on May 12, 2015, 09:15:49 PM
So S and S, making money from Madeleine is OK then ???
Free PR for the Mccann family and the "search for Madeleine". But did it help in that? Or was it a book criticising all and sundry? What was the purpose of the book? I don't know as I haven't read it.
They must also have contributed some of their proceeds to the Madeleine Fund I guess.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Lyall on May 12, 2015, 10:12:10 PM
BL was quick to point out that it was her right to criticise and comment on the McCanns.
And yet she actively incited fellow sceptics to influence the public NOT to buy the S&S book - by posting negative reviews - with the sole aim of stifling interest and to persuade as many people as possible NOT to read someone else's comments on the case - simply because they did not concur with her own.
It seems Brenda Leyland supported Free Speech - but only for herself and her fellow sceptics..
I don't think it was the book so much that prompted the reviews, it was S&S in the papers (and their tweets).
But they were actually provoking a reaction by including in their book the comments about "cowards".
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 12, 2015, 10:24:13 PM
Why have you bought it twice if you think it's rubbish?
I didn't say it was rubbish. It's their opinion and they've every right to give it (but it's a very one-sided view of the history of the case however).
I bought it because I was genuinely interested to read their thoughts (honest!)
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Lyall on May 12, 2015, 10:43:38 PM
PS: not following the logic of why it is OK for others to say what they thought of it just because you bought two copies...?
I mean others who bought it.
But I wasn't surprised those who didn't still left reviews because amongst other things the book calls them cowards. S&S can't have been surprised by the reaction. They're certainly not naive people.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 12, 2015, 10:45:16 PM
I didn't say it was rubbish. It's their opinion and they've every right to give it (but it's a very one-sided view of the history of the case however).
I bought it because I was genuinely interested to read their thoughts (honest!)
so interested you bought it twice! Did you think their views would have changed the second time you bought it?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Lyall on May 12, 2015, 10:50:06 PM
But I wasn't surprised those who didn't still left reviews because amongst other things the book calls them cowards. S&S can't have been surprised by the reaction. They're certainly not naive people.
No and the cowards certainly gave them plenty of additional evidence of their cowardly and disgusting behaviour, though I suspect that some of these so-called sceptics are actually quite proud and excited about seeing their names appear in the book.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 12, 2015, 10:51:44 PM
No and the cowards certainly gave them plenty of additional evidence of their cowardly and disgusting behaviour, though I suspect that some of these so-called sceptics are actually quite proud and excited about seeing their names appear in the book.
A few reviews left on Amazon is dwarfed by what happened afterwards with Sky News.
I think S&S knew exactly what they were doing when they attacked people in their book. They wanted the reaction.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Lyall on May 12, 2015, 11:05:07 PM
A few reviews left on Amazon is dwarfed by what happened afterwards with Sky News.
I think S&S knew exactly what they were doing when they attacked people in their book. They wanted the reaction.
I am very certain that they were completely shocked and stunned and upset by the hatefest that was unleashed upon them. Who in their right minds would want that sort of a response to something they had laboured over for months? They were right to document the McCann hatefest as it is part of the story, and they were also right to be critical of those taking part in it - in fact they could have been a lot more scathing about a lot more people IMO - they were on the whole very restrained.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 12, 2015, 11:25:55 PM
No and the cowards certainly gave them plenty of additional evidence of their cowardly and disgusting behaviour, though I suspect that some of these so-called sceptics are actually quite proud and excited about seeing their names appear in the book.
Lets be clear about this. You don't have to have bought a book to have read it and while Summers and wife might not like that their book received reviews that were less than flattering, it goes with the territory. Besides its a tad hypocritical to ask your associates to post favourable reviews while complaining that someone else has asked their associates to do exactly the same, don't you think ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 12, 2015, 11:29:19 PM
Lets be clear about this. You don't have to have bought a book to have read it and while Summers and wife might not like that their book received reviews that were less than flattering, it goes with the territory. Besides its a tad hypocritical to ask your associates to post favourable reviews while complaining that someone else has asked their associates to do exactly the same, don't you think ?
Could you explain the sentence highlighted above please.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Lyall on May 12, 2015, 11:33:22 PM
I am very certain that they were completely shocked and stunned and upset by the hatefest that was unleashed upon them. Who in their right minds would want that sort of a response to something they had laboured over for months? They were right to document the McCann hatefest as it is part of the story, and they were also right to be critical of those taking part in it - in fact they could have been a lot more scathing about a lot more people IMO - they were on the whole very restrained.
I wouldn't disagree with you there. That was and is the point about Brenda - she was the wrong person.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 12, 2015, 11:34:25 PM
This is the "most helpful critical review" of the book according to Amazon:
Quote
95 of 108 people found the following review helpful
1.0 out of 5 stars Biased and highly selective. The authors have recently seen fit to remove all references to this book from their Facebook page - and that is all you need to know
Ironically the review and the ratings it received is all you need to know about the credibility of those reviewing the book - clearly not interested in the actual book itself, just in teaching S & S a lesson.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Lyall on May 12, 2015, 11:36:33 PM
This is the "most helpful critical review" of the book according to Amazon:
Ironically the review and the ratings it received is all you need to know about the credibility of those reviewing the book - clearly not interested in the actual book itself, just in teaching S & S a lesson.
Say I publish on Amazon, and in it call you guys cowards. Would I be surprised by the reaction?
&%&£(+
(You don't include a word like that unless you want to provoke).
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 12, 2015, 11:36:59 PM
Could you explain the sentence highlighted above please.
From the book
'..' We suggested to several associates of our own that in the light of the Internet attacks- and when they had read the book- they might wish to post authentic reviews on Amazon.'
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on May 12, 2015, 11:40:05 PM
I am very certain that they were completely shocked and stunned and upset by the hatefest that was unleashed upon them. Who in their right minds would want that sort of a response to something they had laboured over for months? They were right to document the McCann hatefest as it is part of the story, and they were also right to be critical of those taking part in it - in fact they could have been a lot more scathing about a lot more people IMO - they were on the whole very restrained.
I agree with that, Alfred, who in their right minds could have anticipated the maelstrom that would be unleashed.
That the McCanns are subjected to this level of evil bullying every day of their lives is beyond shameful and beyond reason.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 12, 2015, 11:44:16 PM
Say I publish on Amazon, and in it call you guys cowards. Would I be surprised by the reaction?
&%&£(+
(You don't include a word like that unless you want to provoke).
We're always being told on here that there is no lumpen mass of sceptics, that you're all individuals, with your own unique views on the case, that you are all individually "only asking questions", that there is no community, that you all act independently, so that being the case why would any one of you take exception at a blanket description "cowards" used to describe those trolls who repeatedly and often anonymously abuse and malign the McCanns and others on twitter and social media - surely they didn't mean you, did they Lyall, or anyone else that you consider a decent, respectable "only asking questions" kinda guy...? &%+((£
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 12, 2015, 11:45:53 PM
'..' We suggested to several associates of our own that in the light of the Internet attacks- and when they had read the book- they might wish to post authentic reviews on Amazon.'
Why the hell not try and seek some redress for the damage caused to your reputation and livelihood? Do you think they would have asked for this if there hadn't been such a shit-storm whipped up by your colleagues?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 12, 2015, 11:47:00 PM
Say I publish on Amazon, and in it call you guys cowards. Would I be surprised by the reaction?
&%&£(+
(You don't include a word like that unless you want to provoke).
I'm not sure what's cowardly about posting a bad review of a book you didn't like or felt was badly researched on Amazon. What else is a less than impressed reader supposed to do ? Go to the authors house and deliver his opinion face to face ? Would that be the 'brave' way to let the author know how you felt ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 12, 2015, 11:48:54 PM
I'm not sure what's cowardly about posting a bad review of a book you didn't like or felt was badly researched on Amazon. What else is a less than impressed reader supposed to do ? Go to the authors house and deliver his opinion face to face ? Would that be the 'brave' way to let the author know how you felt ?
I think S & S used the word "cowards" to describe the online abuse of the McCanns - in the first edition of their book, ie: before your colleagues decided to monster their book on Amazon.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 12, 2015, 11:49:59 PM
Why the hell not try and seek some redress for the damage caused to your reputation and livelihood? Do you think they would have asked for this if there hadn't been such a shit-storm whipped up by your colleagues?
That may be so but don't call people names for doing exactly the same and I'm not sure what you mean by 'colleagues'. Care to explain ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 12, 2015, 11:54:24 PM
That may be so but don't call people names for doing exactly the same and I'm not sure what you mean by 'colleagues'. Care to explain ?
You see no difference between a person writing a favourable review to help out a friend or colleague who has been monstered online, and a person writing a damning review online to hurt the author and his livelihood?
Sorry, I meant associates - not colleagues. I suppose now you're going to tell me that neither you, nor anyone you know contributed a review to the Amazon S & S book page....
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 12, 2015, 11:58:46 PM
I think S & S used the word "cowards" to describe the online abuse of the McCanns - in the first edition of their book, ie: before your colleagues decided to monster their book on Amazon.
I'm sorry Alfie but the author's personally spoke to not one single witness or, apart from Kennedy, anyone connected to the case.The book seemed to be made up mainly of Madeleine by Kate and old tabloid tat. TBH monstering was too good for it.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 13, 2015, 12:00:04 AM
You see no difference between a person writing a favourable review to help out a friend or colleague who has been monstered online, and a person writing a damning review online to hurt the author and his livelihood?
Sorry, I meant associates - not colleagues. I suppose now you're going to tell me that neither you, nor anyone you know contributed a review to the Amazon S & S book page....
That's exactly what I'm telling you.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Lyall on May 13, 2015, 12:23:11 AM
I'm not sure what's cowardly about posting a bad review of a book you didn't like or felt was badly researched on Amazon. What else is a less than impressed reader supposed to do ? Go to the authors house and deliver his opinion face to face ? Would that be the 'brave' way to let the author know how you felt ?
You're right Faith,and if Amazon allow people to comment when they aren't verified purchasers publishers just have to accept it to have access to the largest online books marketplace.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Lyall on May 13, 2015, 12:24:09 AM
We're always being told on here that there is no lumpen mass of sceptics, that you're all individuals, with your own unique views on the case, that you are all individually "only asking questions", that there is no community, that you all act independently, so that being the case why would any one of you take exception at a blanket description "cowards" used to describe those trolls who repeatedly and often anonymously abuse and malign the McCanns and others on twitter and social media - surely they didn't mean you, did they Lyall, or anyone else that you consider a decent, respectable "only asking questions" kinda guy...? &%+((£
They were describing everyone as cowards, apart from the few they had named.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: sadie on May 13, 2015, 01:04:07 AM
I'm not sure what's cowardly about posting a bad review of a book you didn't like or felt was badly researched on Amazon. What else is a less than impressed reader supposed to do ? Go to the authors house and deliver his opinion face to face ? Would that be the 'brave' way to let the author know how you felt ?
It would have been a good idea and the DECENT thing to have read it first tho, wouldn't it Faith?
How can one post a review on something they haven't read?
Most of us would call that downright dishonest.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: slartibartfast on May 13, 2015, 07:21:02 AM
Lets be clear about this. You don't have to have bought a book to have read it and while Summers and wife might not like that their book received reviews that were less than flattering, it goes with the territory. Besides its a tad hypocritical to ask your associates to post favourable reviews while complaining that someone else has asked their associates to do exactly the same, don't you think ?
They didn't ask their associates to post 'favourable' reviews. The word they used was 'authentic' i.e. 'genuine' reviews based on the content of the book - as opposed to reviews posted because of a grudge against the authors.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 08:10:25 AM
I'm sorry Alfie but the author's personally spoke to not one single witness or, apart from Kennedy, anyone connected to the case.The book seemed to be made up mainly of Madeleine by Kate and old tabloid tat. TBH monstering was too good for it.
If monstering was too good for it then what would you have done to it? Book Bonfires? authors arrested for sedition?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 08:11:01 AM
They didn't ask their associates to post 'favourable' reviews. The word they used was 'authentic' i.e. 'genuine' reviews based on the content of the book - as opposed to reviews posted because of a grudge against the authors.
How do you know that the reviews weren't based on the contents of the book? Just because someone haven't bought the book from Amazon doesn't mean they haven't read it.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 08:23:25 AM
How do you know that the reviews weren't based on the contents of the book? Just because someone haven't bought the book from Amazon doesn't mean they haven't read it.
The author of one of the longest, windiest negative reviews admits he or she only skimmed the contents. As the book only sold 3 copies (according to you) it seems unfeasible that so many people spent money on the book, read it and came to such negative conclusions.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Benice on May 13, 2015, 08:27:41 AM
IMO the main reason the book didn't go down well with some sceptics is because it didn't confirm any of the myths, lies and disinformation invented over the years - which they so desperately wish were true - and which they need to be true to confirm their own beliefs.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Montclair on May 13, 2015, 08:34:23 AM
IMO the main reason the book didn't go down well with some sceptics is because it didn't confirm any of the myths, lies and disinformation invented over the years - which they so desperately wish were true - and which they need to be true to confirm their own beliefs.
The book probably didn't sell well because it had nothing new and was mostly a rehash of what the McCanns want people to read.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 13, 2015, 08:34:27 AM
IMO the main reason the book didn't go down well with some sceptics is because it didn't confirm any of the myths, lies and disinformation invented over the years - which they so desperately wish were true - and which they need to be true to confirm their own beliefs.
The sceptics obviously feel their campaign has been terribly undermined and threatened by the book, hence the need to rubbish it at every available opportunity.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 08:37:53 AM
I know that, however you obviously feel the book wasn't rubbished nearly enough and must be puzzled and perplexed by the fact that it has been published in paperback form, which would never have happened if the publishers felt there was no market for it. And to pre-empt you - no publisher would ever agree to production of a paperback on the writers' terms.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 13, 2015, 08:42:15 AM
The book probably didn't sell well because it had nothing new and was mostly a rehash of what the McCanns want people to read.
Indeed Montclair. The bald truth is that the only book that could be published in the UK without attracting the kind of litigation Amaral has suffered is the book the authors have written.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on May 13, 2015, 08:46:41 AM
Indeed Montclair. The bald truth is that the only book that could be published in the UK without attracting the kind of litigation Amaral has suffered is the book the authors have written.
and let's not forget the ludicrous assertion that S and S did not write the book with the full cooperation of the mccanns.
@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 13, 2015, 08:53:24 AM
The sceptics obviously feel their campaign has been terribly undermined and threatened by the book, hence the need to rubbish it at every available opportunity.
Or perhaps they simply think it is a badly researched book by a previously credible author.
That Summers has chosen to use most of the new chapters in his book to bemoan the critical mauling his book has received ( I believe Patricia Cornwell did the same when Ripperologists, who actually had an indepth knowledge of the case tore her book Jack the Ripper Case Closed to pieces ) will in time stand as the unedifying swansong of a once respected journalist
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 13, 2015, 08:54:41 AM
The book probably didn't sell well because it had nothing new and was mostly a rehash of what the McCanns want people to read.
I have no idea how many books have been sold. I do know there were sceptics who did not want people to read the book and so took deliberate action intended to suppress sales. These are the same people who regularly claim to support free speech. In light of their behaviour towards S&S - they obviously don't do 'irony'.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 09:04:48 AM
Or perhaps they simply think it is a badly researched book by a previously credible author.
That Summers has chosen to use most of the new chapters in his book to bemoan the critical mauling his book has received ( I believe Patricia Cornwell did the same when Ripperologists, who actually had an indepth knowledge of the case tore her book Jack the Ripper Case Closed to pieces ) will in time stand as the unedifying swansong of a once respected journalist
the book is not badly researched, it simply doesn't say the things you want it to say.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on May 13, 2015, 09:05:14 AM
I have no idea how many books have been sold. I do know there were sceptics who did not want people to read the book and so took deliberate action intended to suppress sales. These are the same people who regularly claim to support free speech. In light of their behaviour towards S&S - they obviously don't do 'irony'.
and what about people such as yourself, who would like to hide away any theory other than abduction from the public arena ?
Mind you, it's too late for that one.
As to the 'behaviour towards S and S',
PULL THE OTHER ONE.
The books lack of sales says everything.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 13, 2015, 09:29:26 AM
the book is not badly researched, it simply doesn't say the things you want it to say.
The book is shockingly researched. The fact that it doesn't have one original interview with any witness says it all really. Of course as it is on ongoing investigation the authors' hands where somewhat tied but that being the case it was a tad disingenuous to make the claims for the book which they did.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Benice on May 13, 2015, 09:31:12 AM
and what about people such as yourself, who would like to hide away any theory other than abduction from the public arena ?
Mind you, it's too late for that one.
As to the 'behaviour towards S and S',
PULL THE OTHER ONE.
The books lack of sales says everything.
Nothing would please me more than to read a credible alternative theory to abduction. The fact that in 8 years there has never been one which doesn't crash and burn under scrutiny should tell you something.
What's your theory Stephen - you must have one? Perhaps you would like to discuss it on a more appropriate thread.
I'm assuming from your comment that you know what the current book sale figures are. Care to share?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on May 13, 2015, 09:39:59 AM
Nothing would please me more than to read a credible alternative theory to abduction. The fact that in 8 years there has never been one which doesn't crash and burn under scrutiny should tell you something.
What's your theory Stephen - you must have one? Perhaps you would like to discuss it on a more appropriate thread.
I'm assuming from your comment that you know what the current book sale figures are. Care to share?
Another credible theory.
There are two at least.
Now briefly remind me of what credible and quantitative evidence exists for abduction.
As to the lack of sales, pray tell me , where is the book in the sales charts ?
It's never been in the top 100 or 200..
So is it a best seller benice ? @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Benice on May 13, 2015, 09:48:08 AM
and let's not forget the ludicrous assertion that S and S did not write the book with the full cooperation of the mccanns.
@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
LOL - It's so easy to be a sceptic. Any 'assertion' which suits is claimed to be the indisputable truth. Any 'assertion' which does NOT suit - is simply dismissed as a lie. Easy peasy to convince yourself of anything if you are one of the sceptics who go by that ludicrous 'rule of thumb'.
IMO your post is libellous - unless you have evidence to back your 'assertion' up?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on May 13, 2015, 09:53:26 AM
LOL - It's so easy to be a sceptic. Any 'assertion' which suits is claimed to be the indisputable truth. Any 'assertion' which does NOT suit - is simply dismissed as a lie. Easy peasy to convince yourself of anything if you are one of the sceptics who go by that ludicrous 'rule of thumb'.
IMO your post is libellous - unless you have evidence to back your 'assertion' up?
They were in contact with the mccanns ?
Are you denying that ?
As to your opinion, that's all it is.
An opinion.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 09:54:50 AM
The book is shockingly researched. The fact that it doesn't have one original interview with any witness says it all really. Of course as it is on ongoing investigation the authors' hands where somewhat tied but that being the case it was a tad disingenuous to make the claims for the book which they did.
There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the book is the most definitive and up to date on the subject currently available - or can you think of a better one?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on May 13, 2015, 09:56:22 AM
There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the book is the most definitive and up to date on the subject currently available - or can you think of a better one?
'There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the book is the most definitive and up to date on the subject currently available' ?
@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 13, 2015, 10:06:12 AM
There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the book is the most definitive and up to date on the subject currently available - or can you think of a better one?
A definitive account would include the following ( thank you to the maddiecasefiles for the list )
Alves, Rogerio Balu, Rajinder Singh Bates, Wells & Braithwaite Campbell, Lory Caplan, Michael Chekaya, Nejoua Cristóvão, Paulo Dâmaso, Eduardo Dodd, Sheree Ellis, Alexander Felgueiras, Sandra Freud, Clement Frias, Pedro Miguel dos Anjos Gaspar, Katherina Zacharias Hogan International Firm of private investgators, headed by Noel Hogan Hubbard, Haynes Hubbard, Susan Hubner, Peter J. Hughes, David Kennedy, Brian Nelson Kingsley Napley Kish, Carolyn Lift Consulting Linnett, Michael John Loach, Emma McBride, Angus McGuiness, Justine McKenzie, Graham McVey, Esther Mentorn Media Nogueira, Cláudia O'Donnell, Bridget Parsons, Tony Pinto, Marinho Power, Glenn Prior, Detective Inspector Stuart Rainbow, Lee Sargento, Professor Paulo Skehan, Douglas Smethurst, Edward Gerald Smith, Jacqui Sócrates, José Thompson, Alan and Cincy Tomlinson, Philip Trickey, David Tudor, Adam Verão, Luis Bilro
Omitted things/events
Deleted phone calls
Discrepancies in first statements (doors etc.)
"f*** off. I'm not here to enjoy myself." (airport shuttle footage is mentioned, ends at "cheer up")
Fund = Ltd.
Fund management/directors
Fund trademark
Gaspard statement
Open car boot (airing)
Payne visit controversy
Phones, new ones in police station
Plane incident (Gerry saves someone)
Quiz mistress
Shower (Payne visit)
Suppression of e-fits.
Wallet stolen, returned
Ward of court
White angels (Payne visit)
Wikileaks cable
Yvonne Martin 'recognising' Payne
Unfortunately Summers tome doesn't.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ferryman on May 13, 2015, 10:09:34 AM
"f*** off. I'm not here to enjoy myself.
The last 6 words of that are a h*ter-myth.
Why would a "definitive account" include h*ter myths?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on May 13, 2015, 10:17:16 AM
LOL - It's so easy to be a sceptic. Any 'assertion' which suits is claimed to be the indisputable truth. Any 'assertion' which does NOT suit - is simply dismissed as a lie. Easy peasy to convince yourself of anything if you are one of the sceptics who go by that ludicrous 'rule of thumb'.
IMO your post is libellous - unless you have evidence to back your 'assertion' up?
That is hilarious. Everything you say about sceptics applies equally to believers. Despite the lack of evidence the abduction thesis is claimed to be the indisputable truth. Any discrepancies in the group's statements are explained by reference to their being 'distraught' or by cricising the translators of the files. Amaral is a liar and a criminal so his theory can be discounted. Easy peasy to convince yourself of anything if you are one of the believers who go by that ludicrous 'rule of thumb'.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ferryman on May 13, 2015, 10:18:15 AM
Now briefly remind me of what credible and quantitative evidence exists for abduction.
As to the lack of sales, pray tell me , where is the book in the sales charts ?
It's never been in the top 100 or 200..
So is it a best seller benice ? @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Perhaps on another thread you could remind me of those 2 credible alternative theories which you are asserting exist. I must have missed them - (along with SY and the PJ).
To get back on topic - which 'Sales charts' are you referring to? Would you please clarify?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 13, 2015, 10:20:33 AM
Perhaps on another thread you could remind me of those 2 credible alternative theories which you are asserting exist. I must have missed them - (along with SY and the PJ).
To get back on topic - which 'Sales charts' are you referring to? Would you please clarify?
They have already been discussed numerous times.
Meanwhile,I presume you know how to look for charts of book sales ? 8)-)))
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Benice on May 13, 2015, 10:23:17 AM
A definitive account would include the following ( thank you to the maddiecasefiles for the list )
Alves, Rogerio Balu, Rajinder Singh Bates, Wells & Braithwaite Campbell, Lory Caplan, Michael Chekaya, Nejoua Cristóvão, Paulo Dâmaso, Eduardo Dodd, Sheree Ellis, Alexander Felgueiras, Sandra Freud, Clement Frias, Pedro Miguel dos Anjos Gaspar, Katherina Zacharias Hogan International Firm of private investgators, headed by Noel Hogan Hubbard, Haynes Hubbard, Susan Hubner, Peter J. Hughes, David Kennedy, Brian Nelson Kingsley Napley Kish, Carolyn Lift Consulting Linnett, Michael John Loach, Emma McBride, Angus McGuiness, Justine McKenzie, Graham McVey, Esther Mentorn Media Nogueira, Cláudia O'Donnell, Bridget Parsons, Tony Pinto, Marinho Power, Glenn Prior, Detective Inspector Stuart Rainbow, Lee Sargento, Professor Paulo Skehan, Douglas Smethurst, Edward Gerald Smith, Jacqui Sócrates, José Thompson, Alan and Cincy Tomlinson, Philip Trickey, David Tudor, Adam Verão, Luis Bilro
Omitted things/events
Deleted phone calls
Discrepancies in first statements (doors etc.)
"f*** off. I'm not here to enjoy myself." (airport shuttle footage is mentioned, ends at "cheer up")
Fund = Ltd.
Fund management/directors
Fund trademark
Gaspard statement
Open car boot (airing)
Payne visit controversy
Phones, new ones in police station
Plane incident (Gerry saves someone)
Quiz mistress
Shower (Payne visit)
Suppression of e-fits.
Wallet stolen, returned
Ward of court
White angels (Payne visit)
Wikileaks cable
Yvonne Martin 'recognising' Payne
Unfortunately Summers tome doesn't.
This would be an account of interest only to complete McCann obsessives. "Wallet stolen, returned" - I mean, get a grip FGS. Why not include "smiles outside church", "money box that looks like an urn on the mantelpiece", and "lichen on the windowsill" while you're at it?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on May 13, 2015, 10:28:36 AM
This would be an account of interest only to complete McCann obsessives. "Wallet stolen, returned" - I mean, get a grip FGS. Why not include "smiles outside church", "money box that looks like an urn on the mantelpiece", and "lichen on the windowsill" while you're at it?
If S&S had included every debunked myth and delusion in their book I think it would have required at least a further four or five volumes ... and that is a conservative estimate.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ferryman on May 13, 2015, 10:29:49 AM
If S&S had included every debunked myth and delusion in their book I think it would have required at least a further four or five volumes ... and that is a conservative estimate.
Yup - there are definitive accounts of WWII that are more succinct than the book the Sceptics imagine the world is waiting for.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on May 13, 2015, 10:32:35 AM
Meanwhile,I presume you know how to look for charts of book sales ? 8)-)))
[/b]
No I don't know Stephen - which is why I'm asking for clarification as you do seem to know. Are you talking about Amazon 's charts? If so do they only count books purchased from Amazon in their charts? What about books sold in other outlets? It's a genuine question.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 13, 2015, 10:39:14 AM
This would be an account of interest only to complete McCann obsessives. "Wallet stolen, returned" - I mean, get a grip FGS. Why not include "smiles outside church", "money box that looks like an urn on the mantelpiece", and "lichen on the windowsill" while you're at it?
And the omissions detailed description of Payne's visit ? As he was the last person to have claimed to see Madeleine alive outwith the family I would have thought a detailed description of this would be crucial in a 'definitive' account.
Though perhaps it's been left out for the same reason Payne's name or his visit wasn't mentioned in the Crimewatch programme which may, who knows, tie in with a newspaper article sometime ago about a couple of the McCanns' friends wishing to change their statements.
All will become clear in time I suppose !
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 10:45:16 AM
And the omissions detailed description of Payne's visit ? As he was the last person to have claimed to see Madeleine alive outwith the family I would have thought a detailed description of this would be crucial in a 'definitive' account.
Though perhaps it's been left out for the same reason Payne's name or his visit wasn't mentioned in the Crimewatch programme which may, who knows, tie in with a newspaper article sometime ago about a couple of the McCanns' friends wishing to change their statements.
All will become clear in time I suppose !
The problem is Faithlilly, you have become so mired in this case over the years you see huge significance in every detail, and nefarious motives where none exist. You should rest your brain, take a break from the case for a year or two, allow common sense and perspective to return and then you might see things more clearly.
Just trying to be helpful. ?{)(**
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Benice on May 13, 2015, 10:46:24 AM
Can you point out where in this quote from Portugal Newswatch - that S&S claim that the McCanns co-operated fully in the writing of their book - as they quite clearly state the opposite.
quote.
“We had a single meeting with the McCanns and one with the Met – both of them early in our research. The parents, and then the police, made only one request of us – a fair one given the parents’ hope and the Met’s working thesis that Madeleine may still be alive – that we do nothing that might hinder or interfere with the ongoing investigation. We have been careful to abide by that request.”
How much cooperation did they get from Kate and Gerry McCann during their research and writing?
“We have been totally independent of the McCanns – and we emphasise this, given the torrent of internet innuendo to the contrary even before Looking for Madeleine was published.
“An initial meeting aside, a meeting at which Madeleine’s parents made no attempt at all to influence our thinking, there was no cooperation. The parents believed we should work independently of them, and we would not have wanted it otherwise.” Unquote
Are you saying S&S lied Stephen? Please clarify.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 13, 2015, 10:51:40 AM
The problem is Faithlilly, you have become so mired in this case over the years you see huge significance in every detail, and nefarious motives where none exist. You should rest your brain, take a break from the case for a year or two, allow common sense and perspective to return and then you might see things more clearly.
Just trying to be helpful. ?{)(**
So you have no explanation for it either.
Fair enough.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 11:00:06 AM
Why should I seek to justify S & S's decisions about what to put in and leave out of their book? As nothing out of the ordinary was reported by Payne when he visited Kate briefly that evening and as the book makes it very clear the authors having studied the case files don't believe Kate had anything to do with the disappearance, why do you think they should have included it?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Carana on May 13, 2015, 11:07:18 AM
And the omissions detailed description of Payne's visit ? As he was the last person to have claimed to see Madeleine alive outwith the family I would have thought a detailed description of this would be crucial in a 'definitive' account.
Though perhaps it's been left out for the same reason Payne's name or his visit wasn't mentioned in the Crimewatch programme which may, who knows, tie in with a newspaper article sometime ago about a couple of the McCanns' friends wishing to change their statements.
All will become clear in time I suppose !
Who wrote that one, Faith?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on May 13, 2015, 11:23:52 AM
Can you point out where in this quote from Portugal Newswatch - that S&S claim that the McCanns co-operated fully in the writing of their book - as they quite clearly state the opposite.
quote.
“We had a single meeting with the McCanns and one with the Met – both of them early in our research. The parents, and then the police, made only one request of us – a fair one given the parents’ hope and the Met’s working thesis that Madeleine may still be alive – that we do nothing that might hinder or interfere with the ongoing investigation. We have been careful to abide by that request.”
How much cooperation did they get from Kate and Gerry McCann during their research and writing?
“We have been totally independent of the McCanns – and we emphasise this, given the torrent of internet innuendo to the contrary even before Looking for Madeleine was published.
“An initial meeting aside, a meeting at which Madeleine’s parents made no attempt at all to influence our thinking, there was no cooperation. The parents believed we should work independently of them, and we would not have wanted it otherwise.” Unquote
Are you saying S&S lied Stephen? Please clarify.
Do you believe everything you read benice ?
How would the book have been published without the mccanns agreement, and of course checked for libel ?
Was it the fairies again ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on May 13, 2015, 11:29:22 AM
Why should I seek to justify S & S's decisions about what to put in and leave out of their book? As nothing out of the ordinary was reported by Payne when he visited Kate briefly that evening and as the book makes it very clear the authors having studied the case files don't believe Kate had anything to do with the disappearance, why do you think they should have included it?
Are you seriously trying to tell me that in a definitive book about any case the last time the victim was seen by anyone outside the family would not be included as a matter of course?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 12:04:00 PM
Are you seriously trying to tell me that in a definitive book about any case the last time the victim was seen by anyone outside the family would not be included as a matter of course?
The family are not under suspicion - the book makes that clear. The last people to see Madeleine were her parents and siblings. Which part of this do you not understand?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 13, 2015, 12:10:38 PM
The family are not under suspicion - the book makes that clear. The last people to see Madeleine were her parents and siblings. Which part of this do you not understand?
The author's know as much as us when it comes to who is now being investigated. However your easy dismissal of a crucial witness does explain why you accept the tome as being 'definitive'.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 12:16:58 PM
The author's know as much as us when it comes to who is now being investigated. However your easy dismissal of a crucial witness does explain why you accept the tome as being 'definitive'.
I described it as "the most definitive and up-to-date book currently available" - if you would care to point me to a more thoroughly exhaustive and up-to-date book on the subject I'll happily revise my views.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Lyall on May 13, 2015, 12:32:02 PM
I described it as "the most definitive and up-to-date book currently available" - if you would care to point me to a more thoroughly exhaustive and up-to-date book on the subject I'll happily revise my views.
When their narrative about what happened that night includes the claim/admission they left the rear patio door unlocked (and possibly the front door also, with nobody ever talking about the locks on the other windows), if you're writing a book about a child's disappearance and want to be taken seriously you surely need to include every detail known about the final few hours.
If you don't include them then people will wonder why. The book isn't actually about Madeleine's disappearance. It's not a history of what happened to her - it's a history of what happened to her parents.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Lyall on May 13, 2015, 12:37:47 PM
But they sold it as being about Madeleine, that's the point. It isn't.
If they'd sold it as a tribute to her parents then fine, but they didn't.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 12:42:27 PM
When their narrative about what happened that night includes the claim/admission they left the rear patio door unlocked (and possibly the front door also, with nobody ever talking about the locks on the other windows), if you're writing a book about a child's disappearance and want to be taken seriously you surely need to include every detail known about the final few hours.
If you don't include them then people will wonder why. The book isn't actually about Madeleine's disappearance. It's not a history of what happened to her - it's a history of what happened to her parents.
How can it be a history of what happened to her? Only the person who took her can write that book. Anyway, nothing is stopping one of you "sceptics" writing the definitive book and including all the important stuff like the lost wallet, and Gerry helping a man taken ill on a plane. You won't get a publisher but you can always post it on the internet for free. Perhaps the literary Stud Muffin himself could turn his hand to it, rather than churning out incandescent bile-filled blog entries...? I'm sure he'd be very objective and definitive. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 12:43:26 PM
But they sold it as being about Madeleine, that's the point. It isn't.
If they'd sold it as a tribute to her parents then fine, but they didn't.
The book is entitled "Looking For Madeleine" - the emphasis being on what happened after she went missing, I would have thought that obvious from the title.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Carana on May 13, 2015, 12:47:09 PM
When their narrative about what happened that night includes the claim/admission they left the rear patio door unlocked (and possibly the front door also, with nobody ever talking about the locks on the other windows), if you're writing a book about a child's disappearance and want to be taken seriously you surely need to include every detail known about the final few hours.
If you don't include them then people will wonder why. The book isn't actually about Madeleine's disappearance. It's not a history of what happened to her - it's a history of what happened to her parents.
It seems to be an account of a "cause célèbre". Nothing is known about what actually happened to Madeleine aside from the fact that she is still missing.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Lyall on May 13, 2015, 12:47:43 PM
How can it be a history of what happened to her? Only the person who took her can write that book. Anyway, nothing is stopping one of you "sceptics" writing the definitive book and including all the important stuff like the lost wallet, and Gerry helping a man taken ill on a plane. You won't get a publisher but you can always post it on the internet for free. Perhaps the literary Stud Muffin himself could turn his hand to it, rather than churning out incandescent bile-filled blog entries...? I'm sure he'd be very objective and definitive. @)(++(*
You have to include everything known about the hours leading up to the child's disappearance (which isn't much, so omitting some of the not much will raise eyebrows).
If you do not include those details then the book isn't actually the book it was sold as.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Lyall on May 13, 2015, 12:48:33 PM
The book is entitled "Looking For Madeleine" - the emphasis being on what happened after she went missing, I would have thought that obvious from the title.
That's not how they sold it in their press and TV interviews.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Lyall on May 13, 2015, 12:52:07 PM
It seems to be an account of a "cause célèbre". Nothing is known about what actually happened to Madeleine aside from the fact that she is still missing.
I agree, but a) the book is certain it was abduction (how can it be when little or nothing is known?), and b) they sold it as being about what happened to Madeleine (not as being about what happened afterwards).
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 01:02:35 PM
I agree, but a) the book is certain it was abduction (how can it be when little or nothing is known?), and b) they sold it as being about what happened to Madeleine (not as being about what happened afterwards).
But the book is called "Looking For Madeleine" and has never made any claim to solving the mystery. The authors are perfectly entitled to write a book based on their own reading of the files and on all subsequent information available to them. If they have come to the conclusion that Madeleine was abducted then that is a perfectly valid opinion, even if it is one you don't happen to agree with. With that in mind, what happened when David Payne spent a few moments chatting to Kate and 6.30pm on the night Madeleine disappeared is pretty irrelevant to the narrative.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on May 13, 2015, 01:05:03 PM
But the book is called "Looking For Madeleine" and has never made any claim to solving the mystery. The authors are perfectly entitled to write a book based on their own reading of the files and on all subsequent information available to them. If they have come to the conclusion that Madeleine was abducted then that is a perfectly valid opinion, even if it is one you don't happen to agree with. With that in mind, what happened when David Payne spent a few moments chatting to Kate and 6.30pm on the night Madeleine disappeared is pretty irrelevant to the narrative.
So why pay for a one sided book, which is only voicing an opinion ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 01:05:18 PM
I agree, but a) the book is certain it was abduction (how can it be when little or nothing is known?), and b) they sold it as being about what happened to Madeleine (not as being about what happened afterwards).
The book you want to read, and which hasn't been written is the one that claims to examine impartially and objectively all the different theories (and then comes to the conclusion the parents dunnit, anything else wouldn't do at all!)
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Lyall on May 13, 2015, 01:19:02 PM
But the book is called "Looking For Madeleine" and has never made any claim to solving the mystery. The authors are perfectly entitled to write a book based on their own reading of the files and on all subsequent information available to them. If they have come to the conclusion that Madeleine was abducted then that is a perfectly valid opinion, even if it is one you don't happen to agree with. With that in mind, what happened when David Payne spent a few moments chatting to Kate and 6.30pm on the night Madeleine disappeared is pretty irrelevant to the narrative.
The point some of the Amazon reviewers were making was that the book's conclusions are simply the opinions of it's authors, and that their opinions are not supported by evidence in the book. Those reviewers - whether verified purchasers or not - were correct to point this out.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 01:45:15 PM
The point some of the Amazon reviewers were making was that the book's conclusions are simply the opinions of it's authors, and that their opinions are not supported by evidence in the book. Those reviewers - whether verified purchasers or not - were correct to point this out.
Summers and Swan aren't the BBC - they are entitled to hold opinions, opinions which ARE supported by the facts. They didn't write the book to try and convince people like you that the McCanns are innocent, it's like if you write a book about the events of the Holocaust, you're under no obligation to justify why you believe the holocaust happened and why deniers are wrong - do you think that books about the Holocaust that don't examine deniers' theories cannot be called "definitive" or accurate?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Lyall on May 13, 2015, 03:15:38 PM
Summers and Swan aren't the BBC - they are entitled to hold opinions, opinions which ARE supported by the facts. They didn't write the book to try and convince people like you that the McCanns are innocent, it's like if you write a book about the events of the Holocaust, you're under no obligation to justify why you believe the holocaust happened and why deniers are wrong - do you think that books about the Holocaust that don't examine deniers' theories cannot be called "definitive" or accurate?
Alfred, the more you say the more you're justifying why people left the reviews of the book.
It was only the second book published in the UK (apart from the McCann one).
You're saying this second book didn't have to include evidence to support its opinions?
If that's what they thought then they deserved every review that was left.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Lyall on May 13, 2015, 04:00:34 PM
By launching a book that basically only says "we're respected writers, you should take our words for it" they made the amazon reviews inevitable. They're S&S's problem.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 05:15:32 PM
By launching a book that basically only says "we're respected writers, you should take our words for it" they made the amazon reviews inevitable. They're S&S's problem.
I don't think they said that - even if they'd written a 10 volume account including very detail on Faithlilly's list they'd still have got 1 star reviews if their conclusions were not to the "sceptics" liking, let's be honest now.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Anna on May 13, 2015, 05:58:42 PM
Is it any wonder that S&S had no kind words for people like this?
Debate is one thing and the right to air your views, but………………… Sniping at and trying their utmost to hurt people, that they don’t even know, for no other reason than, THEY believe these people are guilty of something. Not………. innocent until proven otherwise. They obviously believe that they are above the law and have elected themselves, to be judge, jury and executioner. Dishing out the punishment as they see fit, on the internet and by mail.
Why do they do it? And what satisfaction can they gain from it???? It is a total mystery to me how people can be so unkind.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Looking for Madeleine…Excerpt:-
The hating in one form or another started early. Cruel anonymous letters began arriving just after Madeleine went missing. One told the McCanns that their daughter was being tortured and that they were responsible. Another that she was dead and buried.
Back home at Christmas they received a card that read……………………
‘You ******* thieving bast**** . Your brat is Dead because of your drunken arrogance. If you had any shame you would accept full responsibility for your daughter‘s disappearance .You are s..m.’
There was even a death threat.
What caused additional torment was the opportunity to spread poison provided by the internet on websites and discussion groups and blogs. Any High-profile case there will always be people who want to get their views across. In the McCann case the internet exponentially increased. ………………………………........................................................................ ……………………………….......................................................................... ………………………………........................................................................
Tony Bennett of the Madeleine foundation, who acted openly was not one of the cowards who hid behind his computer screen. Nor was his enthusiastic supporter Jill Havern a Birmingham based driving instructor with a grudge against the NHS. And Glenfield hospital in particular.
(It seems to me that S&S were talking about the site owners (who enabled their members to post such vile posts), when he was referring to Cowards, but that is only my interpretation of what he has written)
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: mercury on May 13, 2015, 07:35:27 PM
There have always been nutters. The internet age has given them an equal voice. The problem as I see it in this particular case is the concerted and orchestrated effort, as I see it, to label all people who have reservations about the story as told, as nutters, [ censored word ]s, and all other epithets applied. It's also a little ironic.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Lyall on May 13, 2015, 08:25:14 PM
Anna, that passage you quote is a good example of why they deserve the bad reviews %£&)**#
It's emotional manipulation. Anyone as much on TV as the McCanns were will get disturbed and/or starstruck people writing to them, but S&S want readers to think everything that ended up in their Nutty Box was sent by those horrible online people.
That's dishonesty Anna.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 08:32:13 PM
Anna, that passage you quote is a good example of why they deserve the bad reviews %£&)**#
It's emotional manipulation. Anyone as much on TV as the McCanns were will get disturbed and/or starstruck people writing to them, but S&S want readers to think everything that ended up in their Nutty Box was sent by those horrible online people.
That's dishonesty Anna.
What in the passage quoted by Anna is dishonest, specifically?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Lyall on May 13, 2015, 08:39:10 PM
What in the passage quoted by Anna is dishonest, specifically?
I just said. They ignore the sociology of cases like these in order to suggest that all of the post etc. they get has been sent by the online monsters.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 08:45:55 PM
I just said. They ignore the sociology of cases like these in order to suggest that all of the post etc. they get has been sent by the online monsters.
That's not what it says in the passage quoted above.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 13, 2015, 11:31:32 PM
What I am saying is they don't have to pander to [ censored word ]s and [ censored word ] by giving their daft theories any credence at all. As I said, their opinions are supported by all the known facts, if you can't accept that then that's your problem.
Quite right too. How many of these [ censored word ]s do you believe to be among us rather than locked up where they perhaps should be? (that is [ censored word ]s of both flavours in this instance). Is it in your opinion a significant number in terms of percentage of population? Did the book sales reach even 1% of the population? That's about 630,000 bodies.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on May 13, 2015, 11:36:52 PM
Quite right too. How many of these [ censored word ]s do you believe to be among us rather than locked up where they perhaps should be? (that is [ censored word ]s of both flavours in this instance). Is it in your opinion a significant number in terms of percentage of population? Did the book sales reach even 1% of the population? That's about 630,000 bodies.
it's all relative as Einstein would say to his uncle......far more bought the book than contributed to amaral's fund
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on May 14, 2015, 09:52:00 AM
There have always been nutters. The internet age has given them an equal voice. The problem as I see it in this particular case is the concerted and orchestrated effort, as I see it, to label all people who have reservations about the story as told, as nutters, [ censored word ], and all other epithets applied. It's also a little ironic.
I wonder if they include John Stalker in that?
“My gut instinct is that some big secret is probably being covered up. “I have watched the investigation into the Madeleine McCann case drag out for six months. “One thing above all worries me: Why have the McCanns and the seven other members of their group – the Tapas Nine – remained so silent? “Unlike other high-profile cases I have worked on, not one of them has been prepared to break ranks or really come out and support each other. “After all this time and pressure, I cannot believe that nobody wants to speak. “I have a real suspicion that we are not being told the whole truth. There is something else there, some issue that members of the party are embarrassed about”
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-490254/McCanns-hiding-big-secret-police-chief-claims.html#ixzz3a6QXAx76 Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 14, 2015, 10:23:54 AM
“My gut instinct is that some big secret is probably being covered up. “I have watched the investigation into the Madeleine McCann case drag out for six months. “One thing above all worries me: Why have the McCanns and the seven other members of their group – the Tapas Nine – remained so silent? “Unlike other high-profile cases I have worked on, not one of them has been prepared to break ranks or really come out and support each other. “After all this time and pressure, I cannot believe that nobody wants to speak. “I have a real suspicion that we are not being told the whole truth. There is something else there, some issue that members of the party are embarrassed about”
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-490254/McCanns-hiding-big-secret-police-chief-claims.html#ixzz3a6QXAx76 Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
John Stalker obviously didn't know much about Portuguese Secrecy Laws. But he must do now because we never heard from him again.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on May 14, 2015, 10:47:56 AM
“My gut instinct is that some big secret is probably being covered up. “I have watched the investigation into the Madeleine McCann case drag out for six months. “One thing above all worries me: Why have the McCanns and the seven other members of their group – the Tapas Nine – remained so silent? “Unlike other high-profile cases I have worked on, not one of them has been prepared to break ranks or really come out and support each other. “After all this time and pressure, I cannot believe that nobody wants to speak. “I have a real suspicion that we are not being told the whole truth. There is something else there, some issue that members of the party are embarrassed about”
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-490254/McCanns-hiding-big-secret-police-chief-claims.html#ixzz3a6QXAx76 Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Please do take things in context ... disingenuous to say the least to selectively quote Lee Rainbow and now John Stalker who rather obviously was not familiar with PORTUGUESE SECRECY LAWS.
Reliance on such shows not only your bias but the paucity of a sustainable argument to support your beliefs.
I doubt very much that whatever S&S would decide to include would prevent well informed individuals from presenting such deceits to the ill informed to disseminate as the whole truth of the matter when it is patently anything but.
As John Stalker is on record as saying ...
**snip
My instinct, based on years of policing similar cases, is that we are looking at an abduction where the child was targeted in the days before her disappearance.
On the night she vanished it is likely that her abductor simply spotted his opportunity and struck while he could.
I have been horrified by the abject failure of the Portuguese detectives to adhere to basic principles of policing.
The investigation does not seem to have taken a step forward from where it was in the first week after she went missing. I cannot believe that the Portuguese only sent selected DNA samples to the forensic science lab in Birmingham.
There is absolutely no sense in that whatsoever. To fully evaluate poor-quality DNA traces, as we believe these were, forensic experts need to see the whole picture.
In the past, when I have dealt with traces of bodily fluids, it is very difficult to establish how they got to be where they were.
All DNA is highly transferable and that is the most likely explanation for the alleged traces found in the McCanns’ hire car and on her mother’s clothing. Robert Murat, the other suspect, was seen close to the apartment the day after Madeleine disappeared and freely admits having helped police as a translator.
If he was in that apartment, or anywhere near it, ther is no doubt he would have transferred some of Madeleine’s or the twins’ DNA on to his clothing.
I don’t believe for one minute that Kate and Gerry McCann or their friends are capable or guilty of having murdered the four-year-old.
All the criticism of Kate and Gerry and their friends has been completely out of order. They are extremely intelligent and articulate people and, just because they have never visibly cracked in public to the extent that they are beaten, does not mean that they are guilty of anything sinister.
As regards donations to Amaral, still early days yet.
You seem to be the expert on sales figures and reviews and all things S&S ... so I think that can be safely left to you ... as far as the donations to Mr Amaral's appeal fund goes ... when one takes in the matching funds donated from Portugal ... he must be nearly there? 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Benice on May 14, 2015, 10:55:34 AM
“My gut instinct is that some big secret is probably being covered up. “I have watched the investigation into the Madeleine McCann case drag out for six months. “One thing above all worries me: Why have the McCanns and the seven other members of their group – the Tapas Nine – remained so silent? “Unlike other high-profile cases I have worked on, not one of them has been prepared to break ranks or really come out and support each other. “After all this time and pressure, I cannot believe that nobody wants to speak. “I have a real suspicion that we are not being told the whole truth. There is something else there, some issue that members of the party are embarrassed about”
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-490254/McCanns-hiding-big-secret-police-chief-claims.html#ixzz3a6QXAx76 Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Didn't John Stalker write that in 2007? IMO it is crystal clear that he had no knowledge of the Secrecy laws at the time - otherwise he would have known why no-one had spoken out - which appeared to be the one thing that worried him 8 years ago. I'm sure he has long since been enlightened on that score and is no longer 'worried'.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2015, 10:55:51 AM
MCCANNS ‘ARE HIDING A BIG SECRET’ Sunday October 28 2007 By John Stalker
I have watched the investigation into the Madeleine McCann case drag on for six months.
One thing above all worries me: Why have the McCanns and the seven other members of their group – the Tapas Nine – remained so silent? My gut instinct is that some big secret is probably being covered up.
Unlike other high-profile cases I have worked on, not one of them has been prepared to break ranks or really come out and support each other. After all this time and pressure, I cannot believe that nobody wants to speak.
Their answer has always been no comment but there is surely some division between them. So what are they hiding? I have a real suspicion that we are not being told the whole truth.
There is something else there, some issue that members of the party are embarrassed about.
While they continue to refuse to talk it is unlikely that we will find out what it is for a very long time but one thing is certain – it will eventually come out.
The sad fact is that we still have a missing girl and I believe the investigation will be focusing on the theory that she is dead.
The likeliest scenario is that her abductor panicked when he realised the attention the case was creating and killed her days after snatching her.
My fear now is that unless we find her body or her killer strikes again we will never know what really happened to that tiny child.
My instinct, based on years of policing similar cases, is that we are looking at an abduction where the child was targeted in the days before her disappearance.
On the night she vanished it is likely that her abductor simply spotted his opportunity and struck while he could.
I have been horrified by the abject failure of the Portuguese detectives to adhere to basic principles of policing.
The investigation does not seem to have taken a step forward from where it was in the first week after she went missing. I cannot believe that the Portuguese only sent selected DNA samples to the forensic science lab in Birmingham.
There is absolutely no sense in that whatsoever. To fully evaluate poor-quality DNA traces, as we believe these were, forensic experts need to see the whole picture.
In the past, when I have dealt with traces of bodily fluids, it is very difficult to establish how they got to be where they were.
All DNA is highly transferable and that is the most likely explanation for the alleged traces found in the McCanns’ hire car and on her mother’s clothing. Robert Murat, the other suspect, was seen close to the apartment the day after Madeleine disappeared and freely admits having helped police as a translator.
If he was in that apartment, or anywhere near it, ther is no doubt he would have transferred some of Madeleine’s or the twins’ DNA on to his clothing.
I don’t believe for one minute that Kate and Gerry McCann or their friends are capable or guilty of having murdered the four-year-old.
All the criticism of Kate and Gerry and their friends has been completely out of order. They are extremely intelligent and articulate people and, just because they have never visibly cracked in public to the extent that they are beaten, does not mean that they are guilty of anything sinister.
Yes, they have had more doors opened for them than other people would have in similar circumstances, but their main aim is to discover what happened to Madeleine. That should be the aim of all concerned.
But my gut instinct still forces me to wonder: What is the secret that the Tapas Nine are so carefully hiding?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: G-Unit on May 14, 2015, 11:44:28 AM
An article, unfortunately, that cannot be verified as it has gone.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Anna on May 14, 2015, 12:24:01 PM
Anna, that passage you quote is a good example of why they deserve the bad reviews %£&)**#
It's emotional manipulation. Anyone as much on TV as the McCanns were will get disturbed and/or starstruck people writing to them, but S&S want readers to think everything that ended up in their Nutty Box was sent by those horrible online people.
That's dishonesty Anna.
Are you accusing S&S of lying?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 14, 2015, 12:41:34 PM
Such an ugly word. Edmund Burke late 18th century: "Falsehood and delusion are allowed in no case whatsoever: But, as in the exercise of all the virtues, there is an economy of truth." Hilary Clinton 21st century "It seems I may have been guilty of misspeaking" Sir Robert Armstrong 1986 Lawyer: What is the difference between a misleading impression and a lie? Armstrong: A lie is a straight untruth. Lawyer: What is a misleading impression - a sort of bent untruth? Armstrong: As one person said, it is perhaps being "economical with the truth". One does not have to lie to convey a false or distorted message; there are different ways of telling the truth.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Carana on May 14, 2015, 02:49:52 PM
Such an ugly word. Edmund Burke late 18th century: "Falsehood and delusion are allowed in no case whatsoever: But, as in the exercise of all the virtues, there is an economy of truth." Hilary Clinton 21st century "It seems I may have been guilty of misspeaking" Sir Robert Armstrong 1986 Lawyer: What is the difference between a misleading impression and a lie? Armstrong: A lie is a straight untruth. Lawyer: What is a misleading impression - a sort of bent untruth? Armstrong: As one person said, it is perhaps being "economical with the truth". One does not have to lie to convey a false or distorted message; there are different ways of telling the truth.
LOL I notice that you missed one out.... something to do with the other Clinton. ;)
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on May 14, 2015, 05:39:16 PM
You seem to be the expert on sales figures and reviews and all things S&S ... so I think that can be safely left to you ... as far as the donations to Mr Amaral's appeal fund goes ... when one takes in the matching funds donated from Portugal ... he must be nearly there? 8**8:/:
Now don't worry brietta.
He will get there. 8)--))
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 14, 2015, 05:52:26 PM
Nobody lies anymore Anna. They spin (consciously or otherwise - I don't doubt S&S are sincere in what they believe, and in their desire to help Madeleine's parents).
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 14, 2015, 10:34:24 PM
Nobody lies anymore Anna. They spin (consciously or otherwise - I don't doubt S&S are sincere in what they believe, and in their desire to help Madeleine's parents).
Is that really the job of an investigative journalist though?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 14, 2015, 11:01:28 PM
Is that really the job of an investigative journalist though?
Doesn't that depend on whether or not they say what you want to hear? People look far enough to see what they want to see and listen long enough to hear what they want to hear. Prejudice rules OK? 8(0(* I am surprised that 10 months down the track a lightweight book remains the topic of discussion. Put it to the test; go down your local spit and saw dust or trendy wine bar and say "Here what do you think of Summers' and Swan's book on Madeleine".
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Lyall on May 14, 2015, 11:02:45 PM
Is that really the job of an investigative journalist though?
I got the impression (maybe wrongly?) it's Swan who is the most committed of the two. She may well have been following the case right from the beginning.
But generally journalists are ideal people to write books about cases aren't they? It's just that in cases like these, people - including the professionals - inevitably get emotionally involved and perhaps only see what they want to see?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 15, 2015, 04:24:06 PM
Doesn't that depend on whether or not they say what you want to hear? People look far enough to see what they want to see and listen long enough to hear what they want to hear. Prejudice rules OK? 8(0(* I am surprised that 10 months down the track a lightweight book remains the topic of discussion. Put it to the test; go down your local spit and saw dust or trendy wine bar and say "Here what do you think of Summers' and Swan's book on Madeleine".
Very true dear Alice...
and..."go down your local spit and saw dust or trendy wine bar and say "Here what do you think of Summers' and Swan's book on Madeleine".
To my horror someone replied "thank you for reminding me I need toilet paper!"
But it is great that the book helped Madeline and her parents. um...ok what?did they find her?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: G-Unit on May 16, 2015, 07:52:14 AM
One forum which appreciated their book; well, they would, wouldn't they?
Summers & Swan @summersandswan · Sep 18 "Madeleine Exposing the Myths" blog calls bk "Looking for Madeleine" "an excellent piece of work...definitive." #Madeleinemccann
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2015, 08:00:43 AM
One forum which appreciated their book; well, they would, wouldn't they?
Summers & Swan @summersandswan · Sep 18 "Madeleine Exposing the Myths" blog calls bk "Looking for Madeleine" "an excellent piece of work...definitive." #Madeleinemccann
The book is an accurate portrayal of the case...which parts of the book does anyone disagree with
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on May 16, 2015, 08:19:27 AM
De book is an abject failure in that it fails totally to uphold the first principle of investigative writing and that is to keep all options open in an unsolved case.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2015, 08:23:21 AM
De book is an abject failure in that it fails totally to uphold the first principle of investigative writing and that is to keep all options open in an unsolved case.
it's not up to the book to decide...SY have said the MCanns are not suspects...The book is a true reflection of the ongoing case
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on May 16, 2015, 08:29:15 AM
Did the book reflect accurately Kate McCanns refusal to cooperate with the detectives?
Did it report on who paid Correia to represent Leonor Cipriano in her case against Amaral?
Maybe some day we will get a book reporting on what really took place.
Kate answered 19 hrs of questions...but when the whole of the investigating team..according to amaral...had decided she was guilty because they completely misunderstood the evidence...she was advised by her lawyer not to answer any more
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on May 16, 2015, 09:48:31 AM
Kate answered 19 hrs of questions...but when the whole of the investigating team..according to amaral...had decided she was guilty because they completely misunderstood the evidence...she was advised by her lawyer not to answer any more
What questions dave ?
and what about the 48 she refused to answer ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on May 16, 2015, 09:58:31 AM
De book is an abject failure in that it fails totally to uphold the first principle of investigative writing and that is to keep all options open in an unsolved case.
It is a book written to reflect the time of 2015 when against all the odds Madeleine McCann's case has been reopened by the authorities in Portugal and here.
The book written eight years ago reflects that time. It unfortunately highlights an investigation which failed to uphold the principles you consider important in investigative journalism and which I consider paramount in policing and that is to keep all options open.
The theory was followed ... not the evidence. The chief investigator saw everything through the prism of his own prejudices and experience ... both seriously flawed.
That Summers and Swan are even handed authors is reflected in the slight manner in which this incompetence is reported ... I wonder if they now in retrospect regret not actually doing the hatchet job they could have.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on May 16, 2015, 10:00:44 AM
It is a book written to reflect the time of 2015 when against all the odds Madeleine McCann's case has been reopened by the authorities in Portugal and here.
The book written eight years ago reflects that time. It unfortunately highlights an investigation which failed to uphold the principles you consider important in investigative journalism and which I consider paramount in policing and that is to keep all options open.
The theory was followed ... not the evidence. The chief investigator saw everything through the prism of his own prejudices and experience ... both seriously flawed.
That Summers and Swan are even handed authors is reflected in the slight manner in which this incompetence is reported ... I wonder if they now in retrospect regret not actually doing the hatchet job they could have.
The first page says everything about the book.
Mere adoration of all things mccann.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on May 16, 2015, 10:01:57 AM
Well, aren't child gates supposed to be locked so that a child can't open it? Otherwise what would be the point of a child gate? Adults would be able to open it obviously.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Lace on May 16, 2015, 10:06:08 AM
You are in a foreign country and you know that a policeman who is already an Arguido suspected of being involved in the torture of the mother in his last missing child case is trying to frame you .
What do you do? Well that's obvious isn't it? You ignore your lawyer's advice and do everything in your power to help this crooked policeman to frame you. Yeah right.
I'm not surprised if you think Kate should have answered the questions Stephen - because not only do you purport to know better than the officers of SY, better than the officers of the PJ, and better than the Portuguese AG - no doubt you also purport to know better than Kate's Portuguese lawyer who gave her the advice which she followed.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on May 16, 2015, 10:34:29 AM
You are in a foreign country and you know that a policeman who is already an Arguido suspected of being involved in the torture of the mother in his last missing child case is trying to frame you .
What do you do? Well that's obvious isn't it? You ignore your lawyer's advice and do everything in your power to help this crooked policeman to frame you. Yeah right.
I'm not surprised if you think Kate should have answered the questions Stephen - because not only do you purport to know better than the officers of SY, better than the officers of the PJ, and better than the Portuguese AG - no doubt you also purport to know better than Kate's Portuguese lawyer who gave her the advice which she followed.
'You are in a foreign country and you know that a policeman who is already an Arguido suspected of being involved in the torture of the mother in his last missing child case is trying to frame you .'
So when did the mccanns first know about the Cipriano case then ?
and of course Amaral didn't torture Cipriano.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on May 16, 2015, 10:45:48 AM
It is a book written to reflect the time of 2015 when against all the odds Madeleine McCann's case has been reopened by the authorities in Portugal and here.
The book written eight years ago reflects that time. It unfortunately highlights an investigation which failed to uphold the principles you consider important in investigative journalism and which I consider paramount in policing and that is to keep all options open.
The theory was followed ... not the evidence. The chief investigator saw everything through the prism of his own prejudices and experience ... both seriously flawed.
That Summers and Swan are even handed authors is reflected in the slight manner in which this incompetence is reported ... I wonder if they now in retrospect regret not actually doing the hatchet job they could have.
I think the hatchet is firmly embedded in the book.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on May 16, 2015, 10:47:44 AM
No.. The real and truthful story of Madrid and all that occurred both during the time of her disappearance and later, has still to be penned.
I always thought you were too intelligent to be taken in by all that conspiracy stuff, Angelo. I think we have all met types like Mr Amaral who think the world owes them a living; they can't get on with their lives because they are busy looking over their shoulders to blame someone else for their own ineptitude. It is a type.
I agree with you that a definitive book is yet to be penned; I don't know that could be done without access to the present investigation files, so it won't be anytime soon; but when it is I think the Amaral investigation will figure largely due to its incompetence and missed opportunities.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Benice on May 16, 2015, 11:07:20 AM
'You are in a foreign country and you know that a policeman who is already an Arguido suspected of being involved in the torture of the mother in his last missing child case is trying to frame you .'
So when did the mccanns first know about the Cipriano case then ?
and of course Amaral didn't torture Cipriano.
I'm sure their Portuguese lawyer hadn't missed the fact that Amaral had been made an arguido on 4th May - suspected of being involved in the torture of the defenceless mother of a missing child whilst in his custody.
Can you think of any reason why he wouldn't know - or why he would not take steps to ensure his client - also the mother of a missing child was made aware of this fact regarding the policeman who was the lead investigator in both cases?
He would have been failing in his duty to his client not to advise Kate to exercise her right not to answer questions and she would have been mad not to heed his advice.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on May 16, 2015, 11:12:39 AM
I'm sure their Portuguese lawyer hadn't missed the fact that Amaral had been made an arguido on 4th May - suspected of being involved in the torture of the defenceless mother of a missing child whilst in his custody.
Can you think of any reason why he wouldn't know - or why he would not take steps to ensure his client - also the mother of a missing child was made aware of this fact regarding the policeman who was the lead investigator in both cases?
He would have been failing in his duty to his client not to advise Kate to exercise her right not to answer questions and she would have been mad not to heed his advice.
I can never understand why the 48 questions is an issue.
Apart from the fact that the McCanns had already spent several gruelling hours being questioned ... it is an extremely mind bending study in irrationality to ignore the fact that they were made arguido\a specifically so that they had the right to refuse to answer under Portuguese law.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 16, 2015, 11:14:11 AM
I'm sure their Portuguese lawyer hadn't missed the fact that Amaral had been made an arguido on 4th May - suspected of being involved in the torture of the defenceless mother of a missing child whilst in his custody.
Can you think of any reason why he wouldn't know - or why he would not take steps to ensure his client - also the mother of a missing child was made aware of this fact regarding the policeman who was the lead investigator in both cases?
He would have been failing in his duty to his client not to advise Kate to exercise her right not to answer questions and she would have been mad not to heed his advice.
Are you insinuating that Gerry was 'mad' for not heeding the same advice ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on May 16, 2015, 11:21:09 AM
I always thought you were too intelligent to be taken in by all that conspiracy stuff, Angelo. I think we have all met types like Mr Amaral who think the world owes them a living; they can't get on with their lives because they are busy looking over their shoulders to blame someone else for their own ineptitude. It is a type.
I agree with you that a definitive book is yet to be penned; I don't know that could be done without access to the present investigation files, so it won't be anytime soon; but when it is I think the Amaral investigation will figure largely due to its incompetence and missed opportunities.
No conspiracy Brie. We know that Correia was being funded and instructed by Metodo 3 on behalf of the McCanns. We know that there was no possible reason for Correia to involve himself in the Cipriano case unless instructed to do so. We know that Metodo 3 attempted to get Portuguese lawyer John Grade involved in an attempt to undermine Mr Amaral, a job which Correia latterly involved himself in.
Have I missed anything?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Benice on May 16, 2015, 11:29:18 AM
Are you insinuating that Gerry was 'mad' for not heeding the same advice ?
Not at all Faith - as it was quite clear from the 48 questions that Kate was the target. This was confirmed by the deal which was offered where - if Kate admitted guilt then she would spend a couple of years in prison and Gerry could go home.
The PJ said they didn't do deals. But then they would say that wouldn't they.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on May 16, 2015, 11:31:42 AM
Not at all Faith - as it was quite clear from the 48 questions that Kate was the target. This was confirmed by the deal which was offered where - if Kate admitted guilt then she would spend a couple of years in prison and Gerry could go home.
The PJ said they didn't do deals. But then they would say that wouldn't they.
All police forces and all prosecutors do deals routinely.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Angelo222 on May 16, 2015, 11:36:31 AM
It is a book written to reflect the time of 2015 when against all the odds Madeleine McCann's case has been reopened by the authorities in Portugal and here.
The book written eight years ago reflects that time. It unfortunately highlights an investigation which failed to uphold the principles you consider important in investigative journalism and which I consider paramount in policing and that is to keep all options open.
The theory was followed ... not the evidence. The chief investigator saw everything through the prism of his own prejudices and experience ... both seriously flawed.
That Summers and Swan are even handed authors is reflected in the slight manner in which this incompetence is reported ... I wonder if they now in retrospect regret not actually doing the hatchet job they could have.
&%+((£ The theory was followed, not the evidence?
They had no other evidence, Brietta.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 16, 2015, 11:53:42 AM
Not at all Faith - as it was quite clear from the 48 questions that Kate was the target. This was confirmed by the deal which was offered where - if Kate admitted guilt then she would spend a couple of years in prison and Gerry could go home.
The PJ said they didn't do deals. But then they would say that wouldn't they.
Is it quite clear Kate was the target ? Reading their statements it would seem they were asked broadly the same questions. The only difference being Gerry answered them.
As to 'the deal' it would seem the McCanns' own lawyer denied one had been offered. From the Guardian :
'On this occasion the police officers were right to be angry. Like many things said about the McCann affair over the past days and months, the story was wrong. There was no offer of a plea bargain. It had all been "a misunderstanding", the McCann lawyer, Carlos Pinto de Abreu, explained the following day.'
Well, aren't child gates supposed to be locked so that a child can't open it? Otherwise what would be the point of a child gate? Adults would be able to open it obviously.
Missing the point completely.
The book never even bothered to mention the existance of said child gate.. which Kate, Gerry & Dave confirm was closed & locked when Kate went in at 9.50 (not 10pm)....because it isn't accurate.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on May 16, 2015, 12:05:50 PM
Where did the PJ and SY initially source the information which enabled them to re-open Madeleine McCann's case ... from the case files.
There is no doubt they have built on that to progress the case to where it is now.
Overlooked and ignored evidence was the key, and it was overlooked and ignored simply because it did not point to Mr Amaral's preferred suspects or support his theory.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 16, 2015, 12:08:25 PM
Where did the PJ and SY initially source the information which enabled them to re-open Madeleine McCann's case ... from the case files.
There is no doubt they have built on that to progress the case to where it is now.
Overlooked and ignored evidence was the key, and it was overlooked and ignored simply because it did not point to Mr Amaral's preferred suspects or support his theory.
What evidence was that?
Phone pings.....Straw clutching with bus drivers, pig farmers & deceased smack heads.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 16, 2015, 12:10:41 PM
Where did the PJ and SY initially source the information which enabled them to re-open Madeleine McCann's case ... from the case files.
There is no doubt they have built on that to progress the case to where it is now.
Overlooked and ignored evidence was the key, and it was overlooked and ignored simply because it did not point to Mr Amaral's preferred suspects or support his theory.
Rebelo was the case coordinator for many more months than Amaral and continued on the same path as his predecessor, a fact the faithful seem eager to ignore.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Lyall on May 16, 2015, 12:12:22 PM
Where did the PJ and SY initially source the information which enabled them to re-open Madeleine McCann's case ... from the case files.
There is no doubt they have built on that to progress the case to where it is now.
Overlooked and ignored evidence was the key, and it was overlooked and ignored simply because it did not point to Mr Amaral's preferred suspects or support his theory.
And you know very well in June/July/Aug 2007 the Portuguese were working alongside British police. It was the British police who set in motion the events that led to the alerts and to arguido status. Any police anywhere in the world would have reacted the same way.
You are confusing evidence with lines of inquiry, or possible lines of inquiry.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on May 16, 2015, 12:18:47 PM
And you know very well in June/July/Aug 2007 the Portuguese were working alongside British police. It was the British police who set in motion the events that led to the alerts and to arguido status. Any police anywhere in the world would have reacted the same way.
You are confusing evidence with lines of inquiry, or possible lines of inquiry.
Oh I see you don't follow lines of inquiry to uncover evidence?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Lyall on May 16, 2015, 12:28:10 PM
Is it quite clear Kate was the target ? Reading their statements it would seem they were asked broadly the same questions. The only difference being Gerry answered them.
As to 'the deal' it would seem the McCanns' own lawyer denied one had been offered. From the Guardian :
'On this occasion the police officers were right to be angry. Like many things said about the McCann affair over the past days and months, the story was wrong. There was no offer of a plea bargain. It had all been "a misunderstanding", the McCann lawyer, Carlos Pinto de Abreu, explained the following day.'
So Kate's description in her book of her lawyer conveying the PJ's offer to them - and describing in detail what he said to her - and her reaction to that proposed deal was just all a pack of lies? Strange that her lawyer hasn't taken offence at being libelled in that way. - or that Kate would decide to write something which, if it didn't happen, would simply prove to her own lawyer that she was a liar? Why would she want to do something so stupid?
Common sense please.
Have you got a full cite of what her lawyer actually did say? It's not clear from the article who stated that there had been no offer of a plea bargain.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ferryman on May 16, 2015, 12:44:35 PM
So Kate's description in her book of her lawyer conveying the PJ's offer to them - and describing in detail what he said to her - and her reaction to that proposed deal was just all a pack of lies? Strange that her lawyer hasn't taken offence at being libelled in that way. - or that Kate would decide to write something which, if it didn't happen, would simply prove to her own lawyer that she was a liar? Why would she want to do something so stupid?
Common sense please.
Have you got a full cite of what her lawyer actually did say? It's not clear from the article who stated that there had been no offer of a plea bargain.
That old chest-nut.
The McCanns were certainly made an offer.
But in strict legal terms the offer was not a 'plea-bargain'.
There is (I think) quite a good blog on this very question.
But I shan't post it because I wrote it.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2015, 12:57:37 PM
Isn't it common place for the police to tell lies in order to gain a confession...that's what we are told on here..
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ferryman on May 16, 2015, 01:00:33 PM
Isn't it common place for the police to tell lies in order to gain a confession...that's what we are told on here..
In the US (I gather) it is regarded as a permissible tactic to test a suspect by lying about your evidence, to test the suspect.
And I think other judiciaries follow the US example.
I've not researched it too carefully, though.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ferryman on May 16, 2015, 01:14:13 PM
One big clue (about the deal) is that Mark Harrison makes very clear in his reports that he was tasked (by the PJ!) to investigate that Madeleine had been murdered.
The whole (shelved) enquiry was a murder investigation.
ETA:
In fairness, not the whole of the investigation, but certainly that part of it from when the British arrived.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Carana on May 16, 2015, 02:07:32 PM
In the US (I gather) it is regarded as a permissible tactic to test a suspect by lying about your evidence, to test the suspect.
And I think other judiciaries follow the US example.
I've not researched it too carefully, though.
Quite possibly, and perhaps urgent circumstances sometimes demand it.
On the other hand, more subtle police questioning can be effective by simply letting the suspect tie themselves in knots (cf the Jodi Arias police interviews).
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 16, 2015, 02:33:53 PM
So Kate's description in her book of her lawyer conveying the PJ's offer to them - and describing in detail what he said to her - and her reaction to that proposed deal was just all a pack of lies? Strange that her lawyer hasn't taken offence at being libelled in that way. - or that Kate would decide to write something which, if it didn't happen, would simply prove to her own lawyer that she was a liar? Why would she want to do something so stupid?
Common sense please.
Have you got a full cite of what her lawyer actually did say? It's not clear from the article who stated that there had been no offer of a plea bargain.
Common sense says that the lawyer/client relationship would exclude Kate's lawyer from speaking about their discussions that night in anything but the most broad terms.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2015, 04:16:24 PM
It is a book written to reflect the time of 2015 when against all the odds Madeleine McCann's case has been reopened by the authorities in Portugal and here.
The book written eight years ago reflects that time. It unfortunately highlights an investigation which failed to uphold the principles you consider important in investigative journalism and which I consider paramount in policing and that is to keep all options open.
The theory was followed ... not the evidence. The chief investigator saw everything through the prism of his own prejudices and experience ... both seriously flawed.
That Summers and Swan are even handed authors is reflected in the slight manner in which this incompetence is reported ... I wonder if they now in retrospect regret not actually doing the hatchet job they could have.
I read the original and I found that their treatment of the subject showed a sensitive, professional and humane awareness of the sad fact that a little girl is still missing.
The McCanns and the Yard urged us to be constantly careful that we do nothing during our research that might – however inadvertently – impact negatively on the search for Madeleine. This was in any case a paramount concern for us. It has meant that, contrary to the very extensive interviewing conducted for our previous eight books – we talked with more than a thousand people for one book – we limited the interviews conducted for this project. Interviews with some individuals could have led to crossed wires with the ongoing police investigation. Interviews with police or officials in Portugal could have adversely affected the fragile relationship between UK and Portuguese forces. Nevertheless, we did speak with former senior officials in both Portuguese and British law enforcement, and list some of their names below.
I read the original and I found that their treatment of the subject showed a sensitive, professional and humane awareness of the sad fact that a little girl is still missing.
The McCanns and the Yard urged us to be constantly careful that we do nothing during our research that might – however inadvertently – impact negatively on the search for Madeleine. This was in any case a paramount concern for us. It has meant that, contrary to the very extensive interviewing conducted for our previous eight books – we talked with more than a thousand people for one book – we limited the interviews conducted for this project. Interviews with some individuals could have led to crossed wires with the ongoing police investigation. Interviews with police or officials in Portugal could have adversely affected the fragile relationship between UK and Portuguese forces. Nevertheless, we did speak with former senior officials in both Portuguese and British law enforcement, and list some of their names below.
I read the original and I found that their treatment of the subject showed a sensitive, professional and humane awareness of the sad fact that a little girl is still missing.
The McCanns and the Yard urged us to be constantly careful that we do nothing during our research that might – however inadvertently – impact negatively on the search for Madeleine. This was in any case a paramount concern for us. It has meant that, contrary to the very extensive interviewing conducted for our previous eight books – we talked with more than a thousand people for one book – we limited the interviews conducted for this project. Interviews with some individuals could have led to crossed wires with the ongoing police investigation. Interviews with police or officials in Portugal could have adversely affected the fragile relationship between UK and Portuguese forces. Nevertheless, we did speak with former senior officials in both Portuguese and British law enforcement, and list some of their names below.
Dear me - how infantile. So - S&S only wrote their book because they adore the McCanns.
LOL - I've heard it all now.
No, they wrote the book to make money!.. and you all hate Amaral for him making money from a book...but you all don't mind Murdoch grabbing his millions, not to mention dear parents and their interviews and book.
They have added nothing to the investigation, all stuff to be read online. Pathetic really.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Carana on May 17, 2015, 01:13:26 PM
No, they wrote the book to make money!.. and you all hate Amaral for him making money from a book...but you all don't mind Murdoch grabbing his millions, not to mention dear parents and their interviews and book.
They have added nothing to the investigation, all stuff to be read online. Pathetic really.
I don't follow what you're trying to say, sorry.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on May 17, 2015, 01:17:40 PM
No, they wrote the book to make money!.. and you all hate Amaral for him making money from a book...but you all don't mind Murdoch grabbing his millions, not to mention dear parents and their interviews and book.
They have added nothing to the investigation, all stuff to be read online. Pathetic really.
Summers and Swan are not part of the investigation ... they are authors who have written an informative book.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 17, 2015, 01:36:09 PM
Okay... how about this: They wrote the book to make money off the back of a missing child. They are not involved with the investigation or related to the Tapas ( so I believe) they have no new information so.. go figure..
Band wagon springs to mind...
... they are carpet baggers, selling 'dodgy goods' in my opinion.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Carana on May 17, 2015, 01:49:11 PM
Okay... how about this: They wrote the book to make money off the back of a missing child. They are not involved with the investigation or related to the Tapas ( so I believe) they have no new information so.. go figure..
Band wagon springs to mind...
... they are carpet baggers, selling 'dodgy goods' in my opinion.
In what way?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 17, 2015, 01:53:38 PM
Aren't they? Money and vanity?? Why not give their books away online if money isn't a contributing factor?
Are policemen motivated by money? If not why not give their time for free, policing the streets and preventing crime? Or nurses? Is their motivation simply money? Or journalists, photographers, artists, gardeners, librarians, etc etc etc.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 17, 2015, 02:59:03 PM
Are policemen motivated by money? If not why not give their time for free, policing the streets and preventing crime? Or nurses? Is their motivation simply money? Or journalists, photographers, artists, gardeners, librarians, etc etc etc.
So which one of the above chose to or have made money from a missing child ( We'll take Amaral as read shall we ) ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 17, 2015, 05:02:19 PM
Are policemen motivated by money? If not why not give their time for free, policing the streets and preventing crime? Or nurses? Is their motivation simply money? Or journalists, photographers, artists, gardeners, librarians, etc etc etc.
...or doctors.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 17, 2015, 05:41:27 PM
My question: Are policemen motivated by money? If not why not give their time for free, policing the streets and preventing crime? Or nurses? Is their motivation simply money? Or journalists, photographers, artists, gardeners, librarians, etc etc etc.
Your reply: So which one of the above chose to or have made money from a missing child ( We'll take Amaral as read shall we )
My answer: if Summers and Swan have made money from a missing child, then from my list so too have the police, journalists, photographers, artists and librarians. How so? The police, by being paid to investigate a missing child, journalists by being paid to write about a missing child, photographers, who have been paid for photographs of the family and friends of a missing child, artists, who are paid to create impressions of suspects in the case of a missing child and librarians who are paid to curate collections of books, some of which will be about missing children. The odd one out is gardeners.
Hope that answers your question in full. 8(0(*
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on May 17, 2015, 06:40:17 PM
My question: Are policemen motivated by money? If not why not give their time for free, policing the streets and preventing crime? Or nurses? Is their motivation simply money? Or journalists, photographers, artists, gardeners, librarians, etc etc etc.
Your reply: So which one of the above chose to or have made money from a missing child ( We'll take Amaral as read shall we )
My answer: if Summers and Swan have made money from a missing child, then from my list so too have the police, journalists, photographers, artists and librarians. How so? The police, by being paid to investigate a missing child, journalists by being paid to write about a missing child, photographers, who have been paid for photographs of the family and friends of a missing child, artists, who are paid to create impressions of suspects in the case of a missing child and librarians who are paid to curate collections of books, some of which will be about missing children. The odd one out is gardeners.
Hope that answers your question in full. 8(0(*
The difference being the occupations cited where acting at the behest of others. Summers CHOSE to write a book when there was no necessity to.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 17, 2015, 10:01:13 PM
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 17, 2015, 10:53:31 PM
Ain't it funny how you have individuals on here who feel it necessary to express total disgust and contempt at S & S for supposedly cashing in on a child's disappearance, whilst simultaneously doing all they can to reunite a man with the hoard of cash he made from cashing in on a child's disappearance!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 17, 2015, 11:08:06 PM
Ain't it funny how you have individuals on here who feel it necessary to express total disgust and contempt at S & S for supposedly cashing in on a child's disappearance, whilst simultaneously doing all they can to reunite a man with the hoard of cash he made from cashing in on a child's disappearance!
The disgust and contempt are reserved for those who hate Amaral for writing a book- He was involved with the investigation and wanted to say something about what went on... Kate wrote a book to tell her version.. what are S&S involvement...NONE-ZILTCH ZERO it adds nothing to what is already discussed in these boards and other net places... So Alfie, They are parasites in my opinion. Making money out of a missing child.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Eleanor on May 17, 2015, 11:13:11 PM
The disgust and contempt are reserved for those who hate Amaral for writing a book- He was involved with the investigation and wanted to say something about what went on... Kate wrote a book to tell her version.. what are S&S involvement...NONE-ZILTCH ZERO it adds nothing to what is already discussed in these boards and other net places... So Alfie, They are parasites in my opinion. Making money out of a missing child.
94 Pages adds nothing to what is already discussed? Really? What on earth have you all been talking about then?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 17, 2015, 11:16:36 PM
The disgust and contempt are reserved for those who hate Amaral for writing a book- He was involved with the investigation and wanted to say something about what went on... Kate wrote a book to tell her version.. what are S&S involvement...NONE-ZILTCH ZERO it adds nothing to what is already discussed in these boards and other net places... So Alfie, They are parasites in my opinion. Making money out of a missing child.
Are you saying that only people with a personal involvement in any real life event should be allowed to write about it? Some might argue that those closest to the event are the least likely to give an accurate, unbiased, objective account and that a third party who had nothing to do with the event is likely to give a more accurate narrative of events. I don't suppose you agree for one moment. Good night ?{)(**
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 17, 2015, 11:16:43 PM
Ain't it funny how you have individuals on here who feel it necessary to express total disgust and contempt at S & S for supposedly cashing in on a child's disappearance, whilst simultaneously doing all they can to reunite a man with the hoard of cash he made from cashing in on a child's disappearance!
As JP said so eloquently while explaining why he gave money to Amaral's fund its not about the rights and wrongs of whether Amaral should have written the book it's about whether it is justice to financially hog-tie him when the McCanns have the use of a million pound fund.
Summers had absolutely nothing to add to the case that couldn't be gleaned from the internet. No nuggets of new information or interesting revelations so why write the book ? I'll tell you why. He is an ageing journalist, past his prime, who appears to rent out part of his home through necessity to holiday makers and who thought Madeleine was a sure fire way to make money for his pension pot. Unfortunately he had neither the courage nor the objectivity to do the subject justice and the book crashed and burned.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 17, 2015, 11:28:33 PM
Are you saying that only people with a personal involvement in any real life event should be allowed to write about it? Some might argue that those closest to the event are the least likely to give an accurate, unbiased, objective account and that a third party who had nothing to do with the event is likely to give a more accurate narrative of events. I don't suppose you agree for one moment. Good night ?{)(**
I am not saying anything of the sort. I am just pointing out the reason for them writing the book..MONEY! and nothing else.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 18, 2015, 08:05:29 AM
As JP said so eloquently while explaining why he gave money to Amaral's fund its not about the rights and wrongs of whether Amaral should have written the book it's about whether it is justice to financially hog-tie him when the McCanns have the use of a million pound fund.
Summers had absolutely nothing to add to the case that couldn't be gleaned from the internet. No nuggets of new information or interesting revelations so why write the book ? I'll tell you why. He is an ageing journalist, past his prime, who appears to rent out part of his home through necessity to holiday makers and who thought Madeleine was a sure fire way to make money for his pension pot. Unfortunately he had neither the courage nor the objectivity to do the subject justice and the book crashed and burned.
Do you think Amaral was right to profit from a child's disappearance?
Also, please could you supply a cite to confirm the rest of your post vis a vis Summers' straitened financial circumstances?
Many thanks.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2015, 08:13:49 AM
As JP said so eloquently while explaining why he gave money to Amaral's fund its not about the rights and wrongs of whether Amaral should have written the book it's about whether it is justice to financially hog-tie him when the McCanns have the use of a million pound fund.
Summers had absolutely nothing to add to the case that couldn't be gleaned from the internet. No nuggets of new information or interesting revelations so why write the book ? I'll tell you why. He is an ageing journalist, past his prime, who appears to rent out part of his home through necessity to holiday makers and who thought Madeleine was a sure fire way to make money for his pension pot. Unfortunately he had neither the courage nor the objectivity to do the subject justice and the book crashed and burned.
I think poulton's video will have nothing new but I don't condemn her right to make it...will you attack her if she brings nothing new to the case
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 18, 2015, 11:03:57 AM
As JP said so eloquently while explaining why he gave money to Amaral's fund its not about the rights and wrongs of whether Amaral should have written the book it's about whether it is justice to financially hog-tie him when the McCanns have the use of a million pound fund.
Summers had absolutely nothing to add to the case that couldn't be gleaned from the internet. No nuggets of new information or interesting revelations so why write the book ? I'll tell you why. He is an ageing journalist, past his prime, who appears to rent out part of his home through necessity to holiday makers and who thought Madeleine was a sure fire way to make money for his pension pot. Unfortunately he had neither the courage nor the objectivity to do the subject justice and the book crashed and burned.
I am inclined to agree with you on this Faith. Blatant cashing in, and nothing new contributed.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 18, 2015, 02:09:00 PM
I don't think anyone should profit from a child's disappearance. I do however support Amaral's right to defend himself.
As to a cite for the rented cottage Google Anthony Summers rented cottage.
So in your opinion Amaral was wrong to write the book he did?
I googled Anthony Summers Rented Cottage but there was no mention of the couple's straitened financial circumstances. It is not unusual for people to buy a property with a view to letting out all or part of it as a holiday let - it doesn't necessarily mean they are broke!
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on May 18, 2015, 02:14:07 PM
So in your opinion Amaral was wrong to write the book he did?
I googled Anthony Summers Rented Cottage but there was no mention of the couple's straitened financial circumstances. It is not unusual for people to buy a property with a view to letting out all or part of it as a holiday let - it doesn't necessarily mean they are broke!
LOL ... It has been my experience that it often means the exact opposite to being broke. Anyway, what business is it of anyone what S&S financial situation is ... just another exhibition in paranoia.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Eleanor on May 18, 2015, 02:26:01 PM
What on earth is wrong with renting out holiday property? I own the house next door to me, with a shared garden, but I rarely rent it out because it isn't with the hassle.
Does that make me broke, or what?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Carana on May 18, 2015, 02:32:47 PM
I am inclined to agree with you on this Faith. Blatant cashing in, and nothing new contributed.
I'm not, in fact.
I did wonder though, before I read it.
A lot of people who followed the news in the early days eventually switched off because there was no news. I don't think that the book is aimed at the relatively few people who have consistently followed the case.
I found it to be a middle-of-the-road, even-handed account of the mystery of a child's disappearance, and - to the extent possible - some of what was going on behind the scenes.
I found the subject treated with sensitivity and responsibility.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on May 18, 2015, 02:50:44 PM
LOL ... It has been my experience that it often means the exact opposite to being broke. Anyway, what business is it of anyone what S&S financial situation is ... just another exhibition in paranoia.
Not sure I've ever seen John Pilger, Nick Davies or Robert Fisk advertise part of their house for rent but if I do I'll be sure to tell you all.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Carana on May 18, 2015, 02:53:57 PM
People often invest in property as part of a pension plan, if they have the means to do so, don't they?
I don't see the issue.
Summers and Swan are just guilty by association in the lexicon of some rather shallow people, because they wrote a factual book regarding Madeleine McCann's disappearance.
I'm not sure how their outrage fits in with the JE SUIS CHARLIE persona they think fits in with their fearless stand on freedom of speech for no-one but those they think should be allowed it.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 18, 2015, 05:34:26 PM
Not sure I've ever seen John Pilger, Nick Davies or Robert Fisk advertise part of their house for rent but if I do I'll be sure to tell you all.
What a pathetically childish observation. Have you been googling "well known journalists with holiday lets"? @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
So anyone who lets out a part of their property is hard up are they? Isn't there a well-known "sceptic" who has a bed and breakfast business in Spain who keeps on donating large chunks of cash to the Gonc Fund? Is he broke too then?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 18, 2015, 05:38:31 PM
Summers and Swan are just guilty by association in the lexicon of some rather shallow people, because they wrote a factual book regarding Madeleine McCann's disappearance.
I'm not sure how their outrage fits in with the JE SUIS CHARLIE persona they think fits in with their fearless stand on freedom of speech for no-one but those they think should be allowed it.
Factual is about this much: "Madeleine McCann disappeared between 18:30 & 22:00 on 3rd May 2007. Despite the efforts of two police forces and three private detective agencies no clues as to her fate or whereabouts have been uncovered" The End
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: ferryman on May 18, 2015, 05:40:36 PM
Factual is about this much: "Madeleine McCann disappeared between 18:30 & 22:00 on 3rd May 2007. Despite the efforts of two police forces and three private detective agencies no clues as to her fate or whereabouts have been uncovered" The End
Which is precisely why no inferences as to guilt should have been drawn.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 18, 2015, 05:43:01 PM
Factual is about this much: "Madeleine McCann disappeared between 18:30 & 22:00 on 3rd May 2007. Despite the efforts of two police forces and three private detective agencies no clues as to her fate or whereabouts have been uncovered" The End
Are you saying that all the other information in the book is false then?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Eleanor on May 18, 2015, 05:54:11 PM
Factual is about this much: "Madeleine McCann disappeared between 18:30 & 22:00 on 3rd May 2007. Despite the efforts of two police forces and three private detective agencies no clues as to her fate or whereabouts have been uncovered" The End
That's about all Amaral got right as well.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: sadie on May 18, 2015, 06:11:29 PM
He didn't even get all that right.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 18, 2015, 06:35:59 PM
Summers and Swan are just guilty by association in the lexicon of some rather shallow people, because they wrote a factual book regarding Madeleine McCann's disappearance.
I'm not sure how their outrage fits in with the JE SUIS CHARLIE persona they think fits in with their fearless stand on freedom of speech for no-one but those they think should be allowed it.
Summers is quite free to publish what he wants about the case but his audience is also free to criticise what he publishes. That's how freedom of speech works.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2015, 10:53:18 PM
I hope Kate writes another best seller soon.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 18, 2015, 11:06:02 PM
Summers is quite free to publish what he wants about the case but his audience is also free to criticise what he publishes. That's how freedom of speech works.
Yep, but best if the "audience" have read the book first .... before they criticize
Dont think you did, did you?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on May 19, 2015, 07:13:00 AM
I have been reading this morning about an appearance on a Missing Person programme in Greece which has so far generated 100+ responses with one young man already eliminated using DNA. The rest of the responses are being checked out in order of priority and no doubt more information will trickle in.
Ben's grandmother is reported to have said ... "We can't change what's happened, we can't bring back all those years now. But we need to tell him that we looked for him."
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Carana on May 19, 2015, 09:32:44 AM
I have been reading this morning about an appearance on a Missing Person programme in Greece which has so far generated 100+ responses with one young man already eliminated using DNA. The rest of the responses are being checked out in order of priority and no doubt more information will trickle in.
Ben's grandmother is reported to have said ... "We can't change what's happened, we can't bring back all those years now. But we need to tell him that we looked for him."
Kerry is also featured on Sky News: http://news.sky.com/video/1486118/bens-mum-we-know-hes-out-there
Can't remember if Summers and Swan mentioned the infamous internet trolls who delight in impersonating others and photo shopping for effect ... but we have seen more recent examples of famous names appearing with regular monotony in another place ... perhaps this is another example.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 19, 2015, 09:56:55 AM
Can't remember if Summers and Swan mentioned the infamous internet trolls who delight in impersonating others and photo shopping for effect ... but we have seen more recent examples of famous names appearing with regular monotony in another place ... perhaps this is another example.
Y'all seem to be obsessed with trolls. Dinnae worry hen just shine a light on them they'll turn to stone.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2015, 10:45:24 AM
Looking around, it is strange that no-one bar amazon customers seems to have reviewed S&S's book. There don't seem to be many reviews from trustworthy sources for any of their books, actually. I do wonder if in part it is because they have written mainly for the US market in the past, with works on JFK, J Edgar Hoover and 9/11, so that they haven't picked up much of a following in the UK?
I found one mainstream review, from the Telegraph, for their book on 9/11, which of their other works was probably the one with the most widespread appeal.
This is from that review:
''Several old and far-fetched but still incendiary claims are examined. One is that the CIA met Osama bin Laden to "negotiate" with him in July 2001. Another is that the CIA was trying to recruit two of the 9/11 hijackers as agents, hid this from the FBI and then covered it up after the attacks. Despite the authors' insinuations, however, there is no real evidence for either claim. Their habit of posing portentous questions without answering them also grates: "Alternately, could it be that the CIA relied on information from another, foreign, intelligence organisation? If so, which organisation? One candidate, some might think, is the Israeli Mossad." ........
The extent to which "innocent Arabs suffered humiliation or abuse" in America after 9/11 is grossly overstated and the assertion that "anyone brown and foreign-looking was vulnerable" conjures images of racist mobs that stalked US streets only in the minds of some Europeans. It is also dubious at best that it is "rarely mentioned, if at all" that hundreds of non-Americans were killed, or that "dozens" of illegal immigrants died and are "remembered on no memorial". There is no denying that Summers and Swan have done their homework. The main 443-page text is laden with attributions from secondary sources. Official reports, transcripts, books and the often unremarkable statements of journalists are quoted exhaustively. There are also 116 pages of endnotes that take considerable effort to decipher. The problem is that the authors haven't done enough original research. Most glaringly, they seem to have interviewed no major figures in the Bush administration.''
The criticism that they have done ''very little original research'' surfaces in other reviews, along with other criticisms
''Looked forward to reading a constructive discussion of a corrupt J.Edgar Hoover. Found it to devolve into ridiculious conjecture. I was extremely disappointed and hurried to finish the mess.''
''Summers has largely plagarised the psychoanalysis form Volkan's "Psychobiography". The references to Nixon's childhood are largely borrowed from Brodie and the coverage of Watergate is superficial and inadequate......I really wouldn't recommend spending £20 on this book, unless you're a true Nixon junky, in which case you will have already bought the book, and will probably have been nodding your head in agreement about what I have just written.''
''The author picks and chooses the facts that seem to support his theories, and omits or ignores those which would disprove them. As a result, the conspiracies end up sounding too far-fetched''
In fairness, there are also some very good reviews and several awards.
So several things emerge
The more familiar the reviewer is with the subject matter, the more likely they are to find fault with a book which claims to be the last word on the topic, which is quite understandable.
Summers and Swan do not appear to have the same market for their books here as in the United States, where he in particular is a well-known author, having written about topics of interest there. Looking for Madeleine is not on sale in the USA at present.
Summers has in the past written extensively about conspiracies and conspiracy theories, but seems to have reflected the thoughts and opinions of others rather than generating anything original.
I can find very little by way of book reviews from unbiased sources. An article in an Irish newspaper complaining about the negative reviews makes reference to a review in the Telegraph, but I cannot find such a review - just the extracts from the book that were serialised there prior to launch
The websites of some major booksellers, such as Waterstones, have no reviews at all, and do not even have the hardback in stock.
I also wonder how willing they were to ask difficult questions.
For example, the following is a quote from one of the few original parts of the book, an interview with Brian Kennedy
''"Within 15 seconds of listening to Kate," he said, "I made a decision, using all the emotional intelligence one builds up over many years. I was 100 per cent convinced of their total innocence. I told them that, one, we would find a top Portuguese lawyer to defend them, and get them off as arguidos [the McCanns had been designated "named suspects" by the Portuguese authorities days before they returned to England]. Two, we'd do everything in our power to influence the public's perspective and views. And, three, we'd support them in setting up some private investigators ... The Portuguese police had stopped investigating. It was urgent to get some other guys on to it." ''
Personally, I would have wanted to know more. Did he really decide in 15 seconds, based on a single conversation? Did he make any further enquiries before coming to this conclusion? Why was ''getting them off'' and ''influencing the public perception'' seen as a priority over and above finding the missing child? You know - the things one might expect a journalist to ask?
I think Summers' biggest mistakes are twofold: his book came out far too soon after Kate McCann's whining piece of nonsense so the market for it was nowhere near what they imagined, plus he has encountered a readership who may well know more, or think they know more, than he does. He would have been better off waiting five years until people were ready for a reminder, or waiting until something worth reporting had actually happened.
S and S are trying to pretend it's a great piece of analytical work.
Yes I have got it, it's on my shelf. We all get that you "sceptics" think it's not even worth wiping your bums with, how many different ways are there left for you to rubbish it, I wonder...? &%+((£
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on May 19, 2015, 07:39:19 PM
Yes I have got it, it's on my shelf. We all get that you "sceptics" think it's not even worth wiping your bums with, how many different ways are there left for you to rubbish it, I wonder...? &%+((£
Angry Alfred ? &%+((£
It rivals another masterpiece of fiction by Mrs. Mccann.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 19, 2015, 07:42:30 PM
It rivals another masterpiece of fiction by Mrs. Mccann.
Angry doesn't begin to cover it Stephen. I am frothing with rage. Incadescent. Irate beyond belief. Really, really REALLY cross. I want to throw things and stamp up and down. Smash crockery. Bang my head against a wall. Rip my copy of Summers and Swan into tiny pieces and force them down the guina pig's throat.
That's what your posts do to me. Odd isn't it? &%+((£
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2015, 07:47:50 PM
Angry doesn't begin to cover it Stephen. I am frothing with rage. Incadescent. Irate beyond belief. Really, really REALLY cross. I want to throw things and stamp up and down. Smash crockery. Bang my head against a wall. Rip my copy of Summers and Swan into tiny pieces and force them down the guina pig's throat.
That's what your posts do to me. Odd isn't it? &%+((£
Stephen must be very worried about this book and very angry...he won't shut up about it...he's prepared to waste valuable McCann bashing time to bash this book...there must be something really serious about to happen
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on May 19, 2015, 07:49:17 PM
Angry doesn't begin to cover it Stephen. I am frothing with rage. Incadescent. Irate beyond belief. Really, really REALLY cross. I want to throw things and stamp up and down. Smash crockery. Bang my head against a wall. Rip my copy of Summers and Swan into tiny pieces and force them down the guina pig's throat.
That's what your posts do to me. Odd isn't it? &%+((£
and all because I don't swallow the mccann line. @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on May 19, 2015, 07:51:44 PM
Stephen must be very worried about this book and very angry...he won't shut up about it...he's prepared to waste valuable McCann bashing time to bash this book...there must be something really serious about to happen
Worried about two armchair detectives.
In your dreams.
The lack of book sales highlight how ridiculous the book actually is.
In comparison, Katie Price is a magnificent authoress. @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Lace on May 19, 2015, 08:39:01 PM
Angry doesn't begin to cover it Stephen. I am frothing with rage. Incadescent. Irate beyond belief. Really, really REALLY cross. I want to throw things and stamp up and down. Smash crockery. Bang my head against a wall. Rip my copy of Summers and Swan into tiny pieces and force them down the guina pig's throat.
That's what your posts do to me. Odd isn't it? &%+((£
*&*%£
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on May 19, 2015, 08:52:11 PM
Yes I have got it, it's on my shelf. We all get that you "sceptics" think it's not even worth wiping your bums with, how many different ways are there left for you to rubbish it, I wonder...? &%+((£
I tried it and finished up having to buy a new Kindle.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 19, 2015, 10:17:44 PM
That book was a very strange affair overall, what was the purpose, what was the result, did it achieve anything?
Hmmmm ... the Summers and Swan book might not have had quite the impact the Amaral book. On the other hand no-one is suing them ... so at least they managed not to libel anyone in it.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on January 10, 2016, 12:59:56 PM
Hmmmm ... the Summers and Swan book might not have had quite the impact the Amaral book. On the other hand no-one is suing them ... so at least they managed not to libel anyone in it.
And there is the crux of the matter. Summers and wife would never gave been able to publish a book in this country that questions the McCanns. So what was the point ? For example the last visit by a non-family member, David Payne, and the questions surrounding his and Kate's differing memories of that visit warrant barely a mention.
'Carlo's first concern was to point out that no-one except her parents and David Payne, who dropped in at apartment 5a at some point early in the evening- had seen Madeleine between 5.35pm and around 10pm'
That's it ! No mention of Gerry asking him to go, no mention of the anomalies regarding the visit within the statements of the main protagonists, not even a mention of the time the visit actually took place.
How can a truly objective, investigative piece of writing dismiss so nonchalantly the last non-family member to see the missing child when there are still so many questions surrounding that visit ? Whether those anomalies don't add up to a hill-o-beans, in a truly objective piece those questions must still be asked or what's the point in 'investigating' ?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 10, 2016, 02:31:58 PM
And there is the crux of the matter. Summers and wife would never gave been able to publish a book in this country that questions the McCanns. So what was the point ? For example the last visit by a non-family member, David Payne, and the questions surrounding his and Kate's differing memories of that visit warrant barely a mention.
'Carlo's first concern was to point out that no-one except her parents and David Payne, who dropped in at apartment 5a at some point early in the evening- had seen Madeleine between 5.35pm and around 10pm'
That's it ! No mention of Gerry asking him to go, no mention of the anomalies regarding the visit within the statements of the main protagonists, not even a mention of the time the visit actually took place.
How can a truly objective, investigative piece of writing dismiss so nonchalantly the last non-family member to see the missing child when there are still so many questions surrounding that visit ? Whether those anomalies don't add up to a hill-o-beans, in a truly objective piece those questions must still be asked or what's the point in 'investigating' ?
Because it isn't a truly etc...............
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on January 10, 2016, 07:59:10 PM
Quite simply Summers and Swan relied on the known facts of the matter, did not deliberately blacken anyone's name, told no lies about anyone. Just responsible investigative journalism, pity there isn't a bit more of it about.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: slartibartfast on January 10, 2016, 08:03:26 PM
Quite simply Summers and Swan relied on the known facts of the matter, did not deliberately blacken anyone's name, told no lies about anyone. Just responsible investigative journalism, pity there isn't a bit more of it about.
Bit of a contradiction in terms really.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 10, 2016, 08:21:02 PM
Quite simply Summers and Swan relied on the known facts of the matter, did not deliberately blacken anyone's name, told no lies about anyone. Just responsible investigative journalism, pity there isn't a bit more of it about.
It requires an imaginative mind and verbose turn of phrase to write a whole book based on the known facts.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on January 10, 2016, 09:43:17 PM
Quite simply Summers and Swan relied on the known facts of the matter, did not deliberately blacken anyone's name, told no lies about anyone. Just responsible investigative journalism, pity there isn't a bit more of it about.
But what did they investigate? Anybody could have written that book. No investigation required. They brought nothng new. Private dicks in the usa working for tv companies came up with more with on the ground findings.
Just another "account of the truth" imo
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on January 10, 2016, 09:54:55 PM
It requires an imaginative mind and verbose turn of phrase to write a whole book based on the known facts.
Perhaps you bought it and read it to enable such a review? Perhaps there are those who purchased it and read it who formed an entirely different perspective. I think the value of the book may lie in the presentation of an unbiased assessment of what is known of Madeleine McCann's case for those who have little knowledge of it.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: faithlilly on January 10, 2016, 10:35:04 PM
Perhaps you bought it and read it to enable such a review? Perhaps there are those who purchased it and read it who formed an entirely different perspective. I think the value of the book may lie in the presentation of an unbiased assessment of what is known of Madeleine McCann's case for those who have little knowledge of it.
No need to buy the book. A combination of the PJ files and some hack journalism will have the same outcome. That a reader who has little knowledge of the case may come to a different perspective than myself is hardly surprising considering the selective nature of the author's musings.
Of course Summers has form for this kind of junk journalism. Tom Mangold, a fellow journalist says as much in his article for the Independent about Summers published 'conspiracy theory' articles regarding the death of Stephen Ward.
'Summers has lent his reputation to a conspiracy theory – please don't giggle – which has an MI5 contract killer hiding in the Chelsea flat all night, then waking the drowsy Ward every few hours and inciting him to take ever increasing overdoses of the sleeping tablets which eventually killed him. The alleged killer is now conveniently dead but allegedly told a gabby friend on his deathbed…
Summers's interviews on this well publicised theory, published by two reputable national newspapers last week, brim with weasel words. "The story ends with a question mark," says Summers darkly. No it doesn't.
It is junk journalism at its very worst, complete piffle, a disgrace to our trade. Believe it if you believe Lord Lucan and Elvis are living under pseudonyms in a mud hut in Uganda. We are in so many ways the first and often the last draft of history; newspaper records and their on-line spill-over really do matter. Lies and rotten journalism go viral in seconds. We really do have a clear compact with our readers, listeners and viewers to get it right.
Mangold also collaborated on a book with Summers which made the case for the escape of Her Imperial Highness the Tsarina Alexandra and her four daughters from the blood soaked cellar of 'the house of special purpose' in Ekaterinberg and their continued survival thereafter. Of course we now know that all the family did indeed perish that July night and their bodies lay just a few miles away from the site of their deaths.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on January 10, 2016, 10:39:23 PM
No need to buy the book. A combination of the PJ files and some hack journalism will have the same outcome. That a reader who has little knowledge of the case may come to a different perspective than myself is hardly surprising considering the selective nature of the author's musings.
Of course Summers has form for this kind of junk journalism. Tom Mangold, a fellow journalist says as much in his article for the Independent about Summers published 'conspiracy theory' articles regarding the death of Stephen Ward.
'Summers has lent his reputation to a conspiracy theory – please don't giggle – which has an MI5 contract killer hiding in the Chelsea flat all night, then waking the drowsy Ward every few hours and inciting him to take ever increasing overdoses of the sleeping tablets which eventually killed him. The alleged killer is now conveniently dead but allegedly told a gabby friend on his deathbed…
Summers's interviews on this well publicised theory, published by two reputable national newspapers last week, brim with weasel words. "The story ends with a question mark," says Summers darkly. No it doesn't.
It is junk journalism at its very worst, complete piffle, a disgrace to our trade. Believe it if you believe Lord Lucan and Elvis are living under pseudonyms in a mud hut in Uganda. We are in so many ways the first and often the last draft of history; newspaper records and their on-line spill-over really do matter. Lies and rotten journalism go viral in seconds. We really do have a clear compact with our readers, listeners and viewers to get it right.
Mangold also collaborated on a book with Summers which made the case for the escape of Her Imperial Highness the Tsarina Alexandra and her four daughters from the blood soaked cellar of 'the house of special purpose' in Ekaterinberg and their continued survival thereafter. Of course we now know that all the family did indeed perish that July night and their bodies lay just a few miles away from the site of their deaths.
i would be interested to hear Mangolds views on amaral's book of lies
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: mercury on January 10, 2016, 10:48:02 PM
No need to buy the book. A combination of the PJ files and some hack journalism will have the same outcome. That a reader who has little knowledge of the case may come to a different perspective than myself is hardly surprising considering the selective nature of the author's musings.
Of course Summers has form for this kind of junk journalism. Tom Mangold, a fellow journalist says as much in his article for the Independent about Summers published 'conspiracy theory' articles regarding the death of Stephen Ward.
'Summers has lent his reputation to a conspiracy theory – please don't giggle – which has an MI5 contract killer hiding in the Chelsea flat all night, then waking the drowsy Ward every few hours and inciting him to take ever increasing overdoses of the sleeping tablets which eventually killed him. The alleged killer is now conveniently dead but allegedly told a gabby friend on his deathbed…
Summers's interviews on this well publicised theory, published by two reputable national newspapers last week, brim with weasel words. "The story ends with a question mark," says Summers darkly. No it doesn't.
It is junk journalism at its very worst, complete piffle, a disgrace to our trade. Believe it if you believe Lord Lucan and Elvis are living under pseudonyms in a mud hut in Uganda. We are in so many ways the first and often the last draft of history; newspaper records and their on-line spill-over really do matter. Lies and rotten journalism go viral in seconds. We really do have a clear compact with our readers, listeners and viewers to get it right.
Mangold also collaborated on a book with Summers which made the case for the escape of Her Imperial Highness the Tsarina Alexandra and her four daughters from the blood soaked cellar of 'the house of special purpose' in Ekaterinberg and their continued survival thereafter. Of course we now know that all the family did indeed perish that July night and their bodies lay just a few miles away from the site of their deaths.
A fresh take on the "tweedledee and twedledum" epithet then
Perhaps you bought it and read it to enable such a review? Perhaps there are those who purchased it and read it who formed an entirely different perspective. I think the value of the book may lie in the presentation of an unbiased assessment of what is known of Madeleine McCann's case for those who have little knowledge of it.
Yup! as soon as it was available I downloaded it onto my Kindle and read it. I wasted my money. It was lightweight in my opinion, full of expressions like "as they were to learn later". I would not be surprised if others thought it was heavyweight. It depends on what one is used to. It was rather like a Man Alive documentary put to paper. "This is an ordinary suburban street ...............or is it"? But chacun a son gout as they say in the better parts of Hackney.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on January 10, 2016, 10:54:55 PM
Yup! as soon as it was available I downloaded it onto my Kindle and read it. I wasted my money. It was lightweight in my opinion, full of expressions like "as they were to learn later". I would not be surprised if others thought it was heavyweight. It depends on what one is used to. It was rather like a Man Alive documentary put to paper. "This is an ordinary suburban street ...............or is it"? But chacun a son gout as they say in the better parts of Hackney.
Do you think the Summers and Swan book would be more or less informative for 'newbees' than the facebook page which will 'educate' them and issue them with a diploma?
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 10, 2016, 11:03:37 PM
Do you think the Summers and Swan book would be more or less informative for 'newbees' than the facebook page which will 'educate' them and issue them with a diploma?
Both are windups to be avoided. The salient facts could be written on the back of a penny black in 6 point. imo of course.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on January 10, 2016, 11:06:52 PM
S&S gave an accurate account of the case ...imo.....problem was we knew it all already
True. IMO a book itemising and dispelling all the myths, lies, and gross distortions of the facts which have been - and still are peddled about this case would have been better.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 11, 2016, 11:01:35 AM
The parents left the child without adult attendance. The child disappeared. No trace has been found of the child since despite extensive investigation. That about covers the key points.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: stephen25000 on January 11, 2016, 11:04:51 AM
The parents left the child without adult attendance. The child disappeared. No trace has been found of the child since despite extensive investigation. That about covers the key points.
Yep, that covers it.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: jassi on January 11, 2016, 11:26:37 AM
The parents left the child without adult attendance. The child disappeared. No trace has been found of the child since despite extensive investigation. That about covers the key points.
Barely enough to warrant a powerpoint presentation, let a lone a whole book
edit - You missed one. Countless people with walk-on parts have been investigated and discarded.
Title: Re: Summers & Swan - A new book - Looking For Madeleine
Post by: Mr Gray on January 11, 2016, 12:11:26 PM