UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on August 11, 2014, 06:03:09 AM
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A Polish couple identified as Wojciech Kamil Krokowski and Anetta Malgorzata Krokowski Jarosinska, holidaying just 4 Km from Praia da Luz came under scrutiny when a parent reported a case of attempted abduction and of inappropriate photographs being taken of young children. The apartment where the couple were staying was forensically examined and mitochondrial DNA recovered from hairs samples. Curiously, one sample matched with Robert Murat while two others were identical matches to Jane Tanner.
NB These results all be they interesting do not prove a DNA connection to any individual. Many people will share identical DNA haplotypes through their maternal bloodline, these may be recent or can date back to antiquity, or could even be the result of mtDNA mutations over the course of human history.
www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5022.msg178624#msg178624
Background
Shortly after the news of Madeleine McCann's disappearance broke, a Portuguese national, then living in Germany, came forward, alleging that on 29th April he had confronted a man taking pictures of his four-year-old daughter on a beach at Sagres (25 Km west of Luz).
The concerned parent had a second encounter with the suspicious individual in a pastry shop later that afternoon and was convinced that his own daughter was about to be abducted had he not stepped in. He watched the man get into the drivers seat of a grey Renault Clio and noted that this time he was accompanied by a woman who was seated in the passenger seat. He was so concerned he photographed the vehicle using his mobile phone, noting down its registration on a piece of scrap paper but later discarded it thinking no more of the incident.
(http://i.imgur.com/wwokPQO.png?1)
Image of the Renault Clio taken at 6.08pm on 29 April 2007.
On the 4th May while waiting in a cafe in Sagres he again saw the suspicious man walking alone this time. When he got home to his mother's residence he was alerted to the events in nearby Praia da Luz the previous evening so he decided that he needed to report the incident to police. The witness told police that his daughter bears a striking resemblance to Madeleine McCann.
The parent remembered sufficient detail of the cars registration which enabled the PJ to trace it to a nearby car hire office. They then determined who was renting the vehicle and this information led them to a Polish couple who were staying at Aparthotel Sol e Mar in Burgau (4Km west of Luz). The Polish couple had by then vacated the apartment and was unoccupied which allowed the PJ to carry out a full forensic examination.
Read the full report (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NUNO_LOURENCO.htm#p1p161)
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Investigations were made in several business premises in Burgau resulting in the couple being identified by one of the bar owners who remembered them as being Polish and had a discussed football with them. The owner of the bar had recalled that they had enquired of him where they could buy some classical music and he had directed them to the FNAC shop at the Algarve shopping centre or to the Chiado commercial centre.
CCTV surveillance footage from the FNAC shop in the Chiado centre was seized and images of various couples extracted. The images were shown to the parent who made the original complaint on 4 May resulting in the Polish couple being identified.
Read the full report (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NUNO_LOURENCO.htm#p1p192)
(http://i.imgur.com/cJ6pLFB.jpg?1)
Polish couple identified from CCTV surveillance footage.
Details of the encounter was sent to Warsaw for police to trace and interview the Polish couple. Using the "PAX-LIST" (passenger list), persons in seats around the couple were shown pictures of Madeleine and all stated that they were not accompanied by any child. The couple were interviewed in their home apartment, which was searched but the missing child was not found. Read link (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NUNO_LOURENCO.htm#p1p213)
Leicestershire Constabulary reported that the female had a criminal record in respect of an alcohol and drug driving offence in 2003 and of obtaining property by deception. Read link (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NUNO_LOURENCO.htm#p2p465)
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The background to this connection is quite incredible. DNA testing showed that samples identically matched the mitochondrial DNA of Jane Tanner and Robert Murat (Processo n' 2007/000565/PT-B). The reports in question were provided by the Servicos de Genetica e Biologia Forense based in Lisbon at the request of Paulo Rebelo. When we talk about hair samples and hair haplotypes we are talking about mtDNA profiles and a system (called haplogroups) that illustrate how these profiles relate to common ancestry groups. One human cell contains two types of DNA - nuclear and mitochondrial. mtDNA is inherited from a mother to a child. Surprisingly, mtDNA analysis is more sensitive than nuclear DNA profiling. The samples found in the Solimar Apartments were identical haplotype matches to Tanner and Murat. This means that the samples were either from them or two people having the same maternal bloodline.
Mitochondrial DNA is and how it relates to profiling.
For highly degraded samples, it is sometimes impossible to get a complete profile of the 13 CODIS STRs. In these situations, mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is sometimes typed due to there being many copies of mtDNA in a cell, while there may only be 1-2 copies of the nuclear DNA. Forensic scientists amplify the HV1 and HV2 regions of the mtDNA, and then sequence each region and compare single-nucleotide differences to a reference. Because mtDNA is maternally inherited, directly linked maternal relatives can be used as match references, such as one's maternal grandmother's daughter's son. In general, a difference of two or more nucleotides is considered to be an exclusion. Heteroplasmy and poly-C differences may throw off straight sequence comparisons, so some expertise on the part of the analyst is required. mtDNA is useful in determining clear identities, such as those of missing people when a maternally linked relative can be found. mtDNA testing was used in determining that Anna Anderson was not the Russian princess she had claimed to be, Anastasia Romanov.
mtDNA can be obtained from such material as hair shafts and old bones/teeth. Control mechanism based on interaction point with data. This is determined by tooled placement in sample.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_profiling#Mitochondrial_analysis;
From the PJ files...
The Haplotype identified by the letters M e M*, present in 49 samples, (35 in the Residencia Liliana, 13 in the vehicle Volkswagen and 1 in the bathroom of the apartament in Burgau), and identical to that of Robert James Queriol Eveleight Murat (RQMU), meaning those samples were from that person or individuals of the same maternal bloodline.
The Haplotype identified by the letter S, present in 2 samples, (apartment in Burgau), and identical to that of Jane Michelle Tanner (JT), meaning those samples were from that person or individuals of the same maternal bloodline.
Section 13 www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm#oa1v2p284
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John...could you provide a link to the files where it mentions this mdna link. The first thing that occurs to me is where did they get a sample of Jane Tanners MDNA.
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John...could you provide a link to the files where it mentions this mdna link. The first thing that occurs to me is where did they get a sample of Jane Tanners MDNA.
Can't find link, seems no longer available to click on.
Have found results though!
Immediately, the question concerning the differentiating value of some haplotypes [haplotype (Greek haploos = single) is a combination of alleles at multiple loci that are transmitted together on the same chromosome] was raised, namely concerning JANE TANNER, page 4175, which was located in a residence in Burgau, which, in our understanding, would not be viable and logical, or to say the least, would be very strange. Therefore, in order to clarify this situation, a clarification was requested from that Institute, pages 4320 and following, which, in its reply, is peremptory in stating that there are haplotypes that are identical among each other, in a percentage that is still significant, pages 4325 to 4328. This means that the hair that was found inside that residence, while possessing the same haplotype as JANE TANNER, belongs to someone else.
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The background to this connection is quite incredible. DNA testing showed that samples identically matched the mitochondrial DNA of Jane Tanner and Robert Murat (Processo n' 2007/000565/PT-B). The reports in question were provided by the Servicos de Genetica e Biologia Forense based in Lisbon at the request of Paulo Rebelo. When we talk about hair samples and hair haplotypes we are talking about mtDNA profiles and a system (called haplogroups) that illustrate how these profiles relate to common ancestry groups. One human cell contains two types of DNA - nuclear and mitochondrial. mtDNA is inherited from a mother to a child. Surprisingly, mtDNA analysis is more sensitive than nuclear DNA profiling. The samples found in the Solimar Apartments were identical haplotype matches to Tanner and Murat. This means that the samples were either from them or two people having the same maternal bloodline.
Mitochondrial DNA is and how it relates to profiling.
For highly degraded samples, it is sometimes impossible to get a complete profile of the 13 CODIS STRs. In these situations, mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is sometimes typed due to there being many copies of mtDNA in a cell, while there may only be 1-2 copies of the nuclear DNA. Forensic scientists amplify the HV1 and HV2 regions of the mtDNA, and then sequence each region and compare single-nucleotide differences to a reference. Because mtDNA is maternally inherited, directly linked maternal relatives can be used as match references, such as one's maternal grandmother's daughter's son. In general, a difference of two or more nucleotides is considered to be an exclusion. Heteroplasmy and poly-C differences may throw off straight sequence comparisons, so some expertise on the part of the analyst is required. mtDNA is useful in determining clear identities, such as those of missing people when a maternally linked relative can be found. mtDNA testing was used in determining that Anna Anderson was not the Russian princess she had claimed to be, Anastasia Romanov.
mtDNA can be obtained from such material as hair shafts and old bones/teeth. Control mechanism based on interaction point with data. This is determined by tooled placement in sample.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_profiling#Mitochondrial_analysis;
From the PJ files...
The Haplotype identified by the letters M e M*, present in 49 samples, (35 in the Residencia Liliana, 13 in the vehicle Volkswagen and 1 in the bathroom of the apartament in Burgau), and identical to that of Robert James Queriol Eveleight Murat (RQMU), meaning those samples were from that person or individuals of the same maternal bloodline.
The Haplotype identified by the letter S, present in 2 samples, (apartment in Burgau), and identical to that of Jane Michelle Tanner (JT), meaning those samples were from that person or individuals of the same maternal bloodline.
John....
Some people had the same haplotypes. Big deal.
Kate, the children, and one of the Portuguese cops in that apartment shared the same haplotype LOL
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Malinka's old sofa had some hair on it too, & he had a phone...... >@@(*&)
'The alleged similarity between hairs found on the discarded sofa and in Apartment 5A is only theoretical. Since no DNA had been obtained in 2007 from S.M. the only comparison that could be done in the Lisbon lab was to extract and analyse the MtDNA from the hairs and place them in the relevant Haplotype groups.
Haplotype X - apart. Ocean Club e sofa of 1-seat in the garage in Portimao
Haplotype Y - apart. Ocean Club e sofa of 1-seat in the garage in Portimao
Haplotype Z - Residencia Liliana e sofa of 1-seat in the garage in Portimao
But since there are only a certain number of haplotypes it is of absolute no relevance if the same haplotype is found in two different spots.
There was also a similarity of hairs in a completely unrelated apartment in Burgau and Apartment 5A. And if my hair was tested I am sure my haplotype would fit one of the hairs found in 5A as well.'
http://unterdenteppichgekehrt.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/going-through-motions.html?spref=tw
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Malinka's old sofa had some hair on it too, & he had a phone...... >@@(*&)
'The alleged similarity between hairs found on the discarded sofa and in Apartment 5A is only theoretical. Since no DNA had been obtained in 2007 from S.M. the only comparison that could be done in the Lisbon lab was to extract and analyse the MtDNA from the hairs and place them in the relevant Haplotype groups.
Haplotype X - apart. Ocean Club e sofa of 1-seat in the garage in Portimao
Haplotype Y - apart. Ocean Club e sofa of 1-seat in the garage in Portimao
Haplotype Z - Residencia Liliana e sofa of 1-seat in the garage in Portimao
But since there are only a certain number of haplotypes it is of absolute no relevance if the same haplotype is found in two different spots.
There was also a similarity of hairs in a completely unrelated apartment in Burgau and Apartment 5A. And if my hair was tested I am sure my haplotype would fit one of the hairs found in 5A as well.'
http://unterdenteppichgekehrt.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/going-through-motions.html?spref=tw
I haven't found anything to substantiate where the sofas (1 x 2-seater and 2 armchairs, seemingly) tested in a PJ garage came from, let alone who they may have belonged to, nor who may have left hairs on them.
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It was reported in CdM originally, so, who knows?!
'One of the other arguidos is Sergey Malinka, a Russian that had already been constituted as an arguido [sic, he wasn't constituted as an arguido but was considered as a possible suspect to the PJ investigation at the time and cleared of all suspicions later on] by the PJ in 2007. [Malinka] Who had a sofa - that he tried to dispose of and which was later retrieved by the PJ and was subject to forensic analyses - where hairs whose DNA “was similar to hairs previously found in the 5A apartment (to Maddie's hairs) and to those that were retrieved from Robert Murat's bed”.
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2014/07/phone-calls-and-hairs-frame-suspects.html
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It was reported in CdM originally, so, who knows?!
'One of the other arguidos is Sergey Malinka, a Russian that had already been constituted as an arguido [sic, he wasn't constituted as an arguido but was considered as a possible suspect to the PJ investigation at the time and cleared of all suspicions later on] by the PJ in 2007. [Malinka] Who had a sofa - that he tried to dispose of and which was later retrieved by the PJ and was subject to forensic analyses - where hairs whose DNA “was similar to hairs previously found in the 5A apartment (to Maddie's hairs) and to those that were retrieved from Robert Murat's bed”.
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2014/07/phone-calls-and-hairs-frame-suspects.html
CdaM... Hmmm.
None of the X, Y, Z haplotypes could have been Madeleine's.
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Malinka's old sofa had some hair on it too, & he had a phone...... >@@(*&)
'The alleged similarity between hairs found on the discarded sofa and in Apartment 5A is only theoretical. Since no DNA had been obtained in 2007 from S.M. the only comparison that could be done in the Lisbon lab was to extract and analyse the MtDNA from the hairs and place them in the relevant Haplotype groups.
Haplotype X - apart. Ocean Club e sofa of 1-seat in the garage in Portimao
Haplotype Y - apart. Ocean Club e sofa of 1-seat in the garage in Portimao
Haplotype Z - Residencia Liliana e sofa of 1-seat in the garage in Portimao
But since there are only a certain number of haplotypes it is of absolute no relevance if the same haplotype is found in two different spots.
There was also a similarity of hairs in a completely unrelated apartment in Burgau and Apartment 5A. And if my hair was tested I am sure my haplotype would fit one of the hairs found in 5A as well.'
http://unterdenteppichgekehrt.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/going-through-motions.html?spref=tw
You are right. This was all explained quite simply, a long time ago. There are a limited number of haplotypes, so it doesn't mean very much at all if there is no DNA.
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I'd already posted what I'd found here:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4679.msg171318#msg171318
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John...could you provide a link to the files where it mentions this mdna link. The first thing that occurs to me is where did they get a sample of Jane Tanners MDNA.
If I may >> Section 13 www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm#oa1v2p284
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If I may >> Section 13 www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm#oa1v2p284
Yes... and:
"[Rough translation]
In response to your letter I advise that a mitochondrial DNA profile is not an exclusive or objective identification of a single [determined] person. Consulting the regional control sequences in the EMPOP database we find 8 results that are identical (zero differences) to the Haplotype S sample, from a total population [universe] of 3830 samples in the 'West Eurasia' population group, known as the populations of Europe."
And that would just be a consultation of whatever was in the database at the time.
As far as I'm aware, Kate and the kids are not related to the PT cop there that night... but they apparently share the same mtDNA haplotype.
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getting back on topic it seems that the mDNA does not prove any connection
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IMO the result of this test was misinterpreted .. Depending on the area where they were born many humans share similar DNA characteristics. This wouldn't mean they are distant relatives.
It really depends on what type of test was used here but unlike the paternity tests the possible relatives tests are a bit more complicated.
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is this another example of the PJ not understanding forensic evidence
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As I've pointed out before:
Translated by Albym, I believe:
[Rough translation]
In response to your letter I advise that a mitochondrial DNA profile is not an exclusive or objective identification of a single [determined] person. Consulting the regional control sequences in the EMPOP database we find 8 results that are identical (zero differences) to the Haplotype S sample, from a total population [universe] of 3830 samples in the 'West Eurasia' population group, known as the populations of Europe.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm
And as I (and others) have tried to point out before, the most practical use of mtDNA in forensics is to exclude someone, i.e., if your haplogroup is not the same, then you aren't the person in question. However, if you do happen to share the same one, then it is more complicated as it would depend on the likelihood of you, someone sharing your maternal lineage, or someone unrelated being the person in question.
An analogy: an mtDNA analysis of a fine blonde hair at a crime scene in Norway is arguably less significant that finding one at a crime scene on a remote island inhabited solely by people with thick black hair with no reference samples of fine blonde hair in the database of the indigenous population ... and one Norwegian tourist who happened to share the most common haplotype in his native land. Even then, it wouldn't necessarily mean that the Norwegian was actually physically present at the crime scene as hairs can cling to clothes or anything else. ETA: and even if the Norwegian had been at the crime scene, he could have been there prior to the crime. On its own, it would mean zilch.
From a reference publication used by the INML:
Sequence databases are our best source of information regarding the power of mtDNA for identity testing. Given that it is expected that maternal relatives will match each other (barring mutation or "substitution"), it is clear that mtDNA is not a unique identifier. Moreover, mtDNA lineages extend back into time to various depths of antiquity, with the result that one's mtDNA lineage generally encompasses many more individuals than would be included in one's known relatives. In addition to the potential for matching other individuals of the same lineage, matches will also occur to other mtDNA lineages that have mutated independently to consist of the same mtDNA sequence.
p.9
II Interpretation of mtDNA data in the forensic context
A. Match significance
When one applies mtDNA sequence typing as a forensic test, it is clear that the purpose is to answer to related questions: (a) through sequence comparison, could an individual be excluded as a possible source of a questioned same?, and (b) if not, what does this inclusion suggest regarding the chance that the individual is, in fact, the source of the questioned sample? If the answer to the first question is yes, the exclusion is an outcome of obvious significance (for which MtDNA testing has a clear and proven utility). However, if an individual is included as a potential source, one is immediately face with the second question. Unless the discriminatory potential of a test can be objectively evaluated, an inclusion could mean anything.
p.11
http://www.bioforensics.com/conference08/mtDNA_YSTR/Holland_and_Parsons_1999.pdf
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is this another example of the PJ not understanding forensic evidence
Hmm. In this instance, I find that the standard wording used by the INML wasn't clear. The "maternal lineage" could go back hundreds of thousands of years, or the haplogroup could have mutated from another one, which is hardly useful in most criminal investigations.
On the other hand, I can easily imagine that standard phrase being presented with a bow on it as "proof".
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Perhaps of even more interest than the mtDNA of the hairs found at the Sol e Mar apartments (of the identical haplotype to Jane Tanner and Robert Murat) is the whole fascinating story of how the Polish man became a suspect in the first place.
Nuno Lourenco's CLAIM was that he saw the man - let's give him his real name: WOJCIECH KROKOWSKI - slyly taking photos of his children and others on Sagres beach at around 4pm on Sunday 29 April. He then describes a second attempt by Krokowski to kidnap his child outside a pastry shop at about 6pm the same day. Even reading his account of these two ALLEGED incident gives rise for doubt, but even more so the fact that he didn't report this to police for another SIX days.
He did so (he says) under these circumstances:
* He saw Krokowski AGAIN at a car rentals on Friday 4 May
* His wife told him the same day to report it to the police because Krokowski might have abducted Madeleine McCann, and
* He only reported his disturbing encounter with Krokowski when Krokowski and his partner during Saturday 5 May, when they were already airborne from Faro en route to Berlin and Warsaw.
But what is also remarkable was how Lourenco's description of Krokowski was a virtual carbon copy of Jane Tanner's description, given the day before to police, of 'Tannerman':
1. FACE
Tannerman: Dark-skinned individual, couldn’t see his face
Sagres (Polish) man: Caucasian with Latin colouring…’of medium complexion’
2. AGE
Tannerman: Aged 35-40
Sagres (Polish) man: Between 35-40 years of age
3. HEIGHT
Tannerman: About 1.7m tall (5’ 7”)
Sagres (Polish) man: Around 170 to 175 cm in height (5’ 7” - 5’ 9”)
4. HAIR
Tannerman: Very dark, thick hair, longer at the back
Sagres (Polish) man: Curly, dark brown hair that ran down to the back of his neck, and in a pony tail
5. JACKET
Tannerman: Wearing a dark ‘duffy’ sic type jacket (but not that thick), a sort of anorak, of the same material as his trousers
Sagres (Polish) man: He wore a cream-coloured cloth coat/jacket, of the same material as his trousers
6. TROUSERS
Tannerman: He was wearing linen type ‘chino style’ cloth trousers, beige to golden in colour, like ‘corticite’, of the same material as his jacket
Sagres (Polish) man: He wore cloth trousers, of the same material as his jacket
7. SHOES
Tannerman: His shoes were dark in colour, classic type
Sagres (Polish) man: His shoes, he thinks, were dark brown…and of the type that need to be shined or polished [i.e. leather]. In his book, Dr Goncalo Amaral says they were ‘shoes of a classic type’
8. BUILD
Tannerman: Slim physical appearance
Sagres (Polish) man: (no comment made)
9. NOT A TOURIST
Tannerman: By the way he was dressed, he gave her the impression that he was not a tourist, because he was very "warmly dressed".
Sagres man: (no comment made, but Dr Goncalo Amaral writes in his book (Chapter 3): “The stranger did not look like a tourist”.
Were the police meant, in the initial stages of the investigation, to believe that Krokowski had abducted Madeleine?
It certainly looks like it. Goncal Amaral dropped everything and alerted Interpol and the German police so fast that the plane was surrounded at Berlin Airport and Krokowski and the other passengers questioned.
Had someone planned to use Krokowski as a fake abductor?
And it's certainly of interest that Krokowski stayed at the Sol e Mar apartments, Burgau, built by Robert Murat's father, and that most of the evidence about his movements came from staff at the Burgau beach bar, owned by Robert Murat's aunt and uncle, Ralph and Sally Eveleigh.
The Sol e Mar apartments, it may be recalled, were tagged on the internet with these words: sexo, sex, adulto, adult, lonely, romance, girls, boys
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I think a translation mistake may be at the root of this confusion over haplotypes (at least for English speakers). I understand "podendo" to mean "may" and it was left out in English.
Taking one at random:
- The Haplotype identified by the letter B1, present in one sample, and identical to that of Maria Irene Trovao Ferro (IF), meaning that sample was from her or an individual of the same maternal bloodline.
- O haplótipo identificado pela letra B1, presente numa amostra, é idêntico ao de Maria Irene Trovao Ferro, PODENDO esta amostra pertenecer à própria ou a individuos da mesma linhagem materna.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/oa/OA2_1/o_apenso_1_Vol_2_p296.jpg
If my understanding is correct, it should have read "... this sample MAY belong to her or to inviduals of the same maternal bloodline."
It also makes sense of the correspondence explaining that there were 8 bloodlines with an identical haplotype to JT in the database and also that a Portuguese cop shares the same one as Kate and the children.
The broader confusion seems to be the misconception that a forensic mtDNA profile is as comprehensive as a medical one. It's not. It seems to be the equivalent of a dialling code and about as much use - a dialling code may be helpful to exclude someone who couldn't have "called" from wherever at a certain time, but it isn't enough to be able to state that a particular person phoned from a particular number. At most, it's a "maybe" unless there are a host of other factors to exclude it belonging to anyone else.
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Madeleine McCann detectives examine former suspect's pictures after Sunday People probe
(http://i.imgur.com/Bf313qt.jpg?1)
24 October 2015
Wojciech Krokowski's flat was searched after the three-year-old vanished but he was ruled out and has now given us snaps he took around the time she went missing.
(http://i4.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article6699135.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/PAY-Wojciech-Krokowski-pictured-in-Warsaw.jpg)
Keen photographer: Wojciech Krokowski in Warsaw
Officers are scouring dozens of images from the camera of businessman Wojciech Krokowski, from Poland.
They are focusing on those he took while in Praia da Luz at the time Madeleine went missing – on May 3, 2007.
Krokowski’s flat was searched after the three-year-old vanished. Portuguese cops later ruled him out.
The images British detectives are looking at is in a batch of hundreds handed over to us by the Pole during an interview.
Among them is a picture of Mr Krokowski, 52, taken in Portugal in May 2007.
It bears a resemblance to the image of a man walking with a sleeping child – an artist’s impression of the kidnap which was released in September 2007.
The picture was publicised widely in the hope it would jog memories about Madeleine.
But British police agreed the picture was not Mr Krokowski.
Mr Krokowski told our investigators he liked taking pictures of children while he was on trips abroad.
He said he was amazed he had not been contacted since police reopened the case in 2011. The Pole insisted: “ I am ready to speak to them any time they want.”
Mr Krokowski said he wanted to remove a shadow that has been hanging over him since he became the subject of an international manhunt over Madeleine.
It is the latest twist in the long-running saga in which British police have vowed to leave no stone unturned to solve the mystery of what happened to Madeleine.
The extensive Scotland Yard review, which began in 2011, has so far cost more than £10million, with an extra £2million set for next year.
Mr Krokowski and his wife Anetta, 50, stayed in the Solimar apartments in Burgau just two miles from Praia da Luz between Saturday April 28 April and Saturday May 5 in 2007.
(http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article6699129.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/E-fits-of-potential-suspects-which-have-built-up-since-Madeleine-McCann-went-missing.jpg)
Impression: Drawing of a child kidnap
Madeleine was snatched from her apartment while her doctor parents Kate, now 47, and Gerry, 46, dined nearby with friends.
We tracked Mr Krokowski to his office in the Polish capital. He admitted he enjoys taking pictures of children on holiday but that it was for artistic purposes. In his first-ever newspaper interview he said: “I take photos of old people, young people, landscapes and I have a lot of pictures from places like Thailand, Greece, Portugal, France, with kids on them.
“But I never thought about kids as a sexual object. Nothing like this, never, never never. I am a simple man with normal sexual orientations.”
(http://i3.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article6699137.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/Wojcieh-Krokowski-fights-clear-his-name-in-the-Maddie-McCann-disappearance.jpg)
Relaxed: Mr Krokowski on holiday
Mr Krokowski revealed that although Polish police officers quizzed the couple and searched their apartment and the home of his father, they never confiscated his camera or inspected his pictures.
Goncalo Amaral, the controversial detective who led the original Portuguese investigation before he was replaced, has said he regretted that the Polish police probe into the couple was not taken further and that they did not seize Mr Krokowski’s camera and look at his holiday pics at that time.
But Mr Krokowski, who describes himself as an “obsessive photographer” told us he still had every single picture he took the day Madeleine vanished and handed them over so we could pass them to Operation Grange.
Our man met Mr Krokowski at the offices of his interior design business in a suburb of central Warsaw near the banks of the river Vistula. Smart and professional, Mr Krokowski was in a meeting when we first called but cut the session short in order to speak to us when we explained who we were.
Over a couple of hours together he spoke at length about his involvement in the case and how he was eager to clear his name once and for all.
He revealed the accusations had cast a shadow over him and his wife for eight years and that he had no idea he was being thought of as a suspect until police knocked on his door.
(http://i2.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article6699134.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/PAY-Solimar-Apartments-on-Rua-Da-Nora-in-Burgau-Portugal-where-Wojciech-Krokowski-holidayed-with-his-wife.jpg)
Holiday home: Solimar Apartments on Rua Da Nora in Burgau, Portugal, where Wojciech Krokowski stayed with his wife
The couple were made a top priority by Portuguese detectives in the immediate aftermath of Madeleine’s disappearance. They issued a CCTV picture of the Polish couple at a shopping mall in Portugal which went round the world.
The move came after a tourist claimed a man fitting Mr Krokowski’s appearance and driving a rental car was taking pictures of his children in the resort of Sagres just a 20-minute drive from Praia da Luz.
The tourist claimed he feared the man wanted to kidnap his daughter, who he said bore a striking resemblance to Madeleine. But by the time the report was made, the Krokowskis had left for their Warsaw home. They pair were approached by police within half an hour after returning.
Their rental apartment in Portugal was also searched by forensic science experts but no charges were brought.
Mr Krokowski said he has taken a close interest in the case and was surprised he had not been contacted since the early days of the investigation.
He said: “I have followed this issue and know the British police are re-investigating.
“They have not been in touch with me yet but of course I am ready to speak to them any time they want to.
“Me and my wife came back to Poland via Berlin.
“We came back on the Saturday evening and took the train to Warsaw on Sunday morning.
“Half an hour after we got back the Polish police visited me at home and said they were there because of Madeleine.
“I said, ‘Welcome, please look around, go through my flat.’
“I flew back by plane and train, it would have been impossible to take someone with me.
“They seemed satisfied with that and I was never contacted again.
“But still on the internet I find the reports from the Portuguese police about us as ‘suspects’ and everything we were supposed to have done at this time.
“I am never comfortable when I read this and see I am a suspect. It’s not so good.
“I thought it was strange that I was a suspect. I am a normal man.
“I like children. I dream of having them but my wife has had some problems with alcohol and petty crimes over the years so we never had them.
“But I am a great ‘father’ to my friend’s children so it was a great pity for me that some parents lost their daughter.”
Speaking about the photos from his holiday in 2007, Mr Krokowski said he was happy to hand them over.
He added: “We are not the type of people to lie on the beach so we travelled a lot in that area between Sagres and Burgau and I have plenty of photos from our time there but the police never asked for them.
(http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article6699133.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/CCTV-footage-of-Wojciech-Krokowski.jpg)
Shopping: CCTV footage of Wojciech Krokowski and his wife in the week Maddie went missing
“I thought once maybe I should show those photos. They are not just landscapes, there are lots of people. Maybe something in there could be helpful.
“I collect all my photographs, I still have them from that trip, of course you can have them if they could help in anyway.”
The Sunday People can also reveal Operation Grange has been looking at possible leads in northern and central Europe.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-detectives-examine-former-6699750
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Doesn't it appear unbelievable that, once again, the PJ failed to carry out the most obvious part of the investigation
into Krokowski?
He was reported because he was taking lots of photos of children. So what did the PJ do? They searched his holiday apt & hire car and asked the Polish police to conduct a search of his home.
All the while, the contents of his camera, which may or may not have been innocent, seem to have lain unchecked for 8 years. Is this because the McCanns never actually went to Sagres beach, contrary to what so many sceptics claim, and therefore this witness is probably totally irrelevant to the inquiry?
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Doesn't it appear unbelievable that, once again, the PJ failed to carry out the most obvious part of the investigation
into Krokowski?
He was reported because he was taking lots of photos of children. So what did the PJ do? They searched his holiday apt & hire car and asked the Polish police to conduct a search of his home.
All the while, the contents of his camera, which may or may not have been innocent, seem to have lain unchecked for 8 years. Is this because the McCanns never actually went to Sagres beach, contrary to what so many sceptics claim, and therefore this witness is probably totally irrelevant to the inquiry?
And doesn't it appear unbelievable that in four year and with an over ten million pounds budget SY don't seem to have got round to it either ?
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And doesn't it appear unbelievable that in four year and with an over ten million pounds budget SY don't seem to have got round to it either ?
Whose job was it, Faith, when this guy was a numero uno suspect to the PJ in the very early days? Who was in charge?
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SAT 5 MAY 2007
POLISH LEAD IN SAGRES
Hundreds of statements continue to be gathered in Vila da Luz. All the people of the area are interviewed: resort employees, tourists, play leaders from the crèches, residents. Most of them will be of no use to us, but none must be neglected.
From information from Sagres, we learn that an individual has been surprised on Mareta beach taking photos of several children and in particular of a little girl aged 4, blonde with blue eyes, who looks like Madeleine. It was the little girl's father who noticed him. This 40 year-old man, wearing glasses, tells the investigators that the photographer tried to kidnap his daughter in the afternoon of April 26th in Sagres.
He allegedly then fled in a hired car with a woman in the passenger seat. The stranger did not look like a tourist; brown hair down to his collar, wearing cream-coloured trousers and jacket and shoes of a classic style. This report reminds us of the individual encountered by Jane Tanner in the streets of Vila da Luz on the evening of Madeleine's disappearance.
Thanks to the father's composure, he managed to take a photograph of the vehicle. It's not very clear and does not allow us to make out the number plate, but we succeed, nonetheless, in finding the car. The car hire firm provides us with the identity of the driver. He is a forty-year-old Polish man, who is traveling with his wife. They arrived in Portugal on April 28th, from Berlin. At Faro airport, they hired a car and put up in an apartment in Budens, near Praia da Luz. Unfortunately, on May 5th, at 7am, they had already left, taking with them their camera and all the photos from their holiday. We ask the German police, through Interpol, to monitor them as soon as they arrive in Berlin. All the passengers are questioned, but no one has seen a child looking like Madeleine. In Berlin, the couple take the train to return to Poland. Thus, the Polish trail comes to an end. We would like to have seen their photos...but that proved impossible.
A lead is only valuable in as far as it is followed to the end, which was not the case with this one. We will realise that we shouldn't have ruled it out so quickly, and that it is still a topic of interest. (GA)
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Good ole Sunday People, revealing SY leads...perhaps they should reveal more since they are in the know?
I thought Tannerman came forward to say it was him Mr Innocent with his daughter comming from the créche?
Hmmm velly intellething
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SAT 5 MAY 2007
POLISH LEAD IN SAGRES
Hundreds of statements continue to be gathered in Vila da Luz. All the people of the area are interviewed: resort employees, tourists, play leaders from the crèches, residents. Most of them will be of no use to us, but none must be neglected.
From information from Sagres, we learn that an individual has been surprised on Mareta beach taking photos of several children and in particular of a little girl aged 4, blonde with blue eyes, who looks like Madeleine. It was the little girl's father who noticed him. This 40 year-old man, wearing glasses, tells the investigators that the photographer tried to kidnap his daughter in the afternoon of April 26th in Sagres.
He allegedly then fled in a hired car with a woman in the passenger seat. The stranger did not look like a tourist; brown hair down to his collar, wearing cream-coloured trousers and jacket and shoes of a classic style. This report reminds us of the individual encountered by Jane Tanner in the streets of Vila da Luz on the evening of Madeleine's disappearance.
Thanks to the father's composure, he managed to take a photograph of the vehicle. It's not very clear and does not allow us to make out the number plate, but we succeed, nonetheless, in finding the car. The car hire firm provides us with the identity of the driver. He is a forty-year-old Polish man, who is traveling with his wife. They arrived in Portugal on April 28th, from Berlin. At Faro airport, they hired a car and put up in an apartment in Budens, near Praia da Luz. Unfortunately, on May 5th, at 7am, they had already left, taking with them their camera and all the photos from their holiday. We ask the German police, through Interpol, to monitor them as soon as they arrive in Berlin. All the passengers are questioned, but no one has seen a child looking like Madeleine. In Berlin, the couple take the train to return to Poland. Thus, the Polish trail comes to an end. We would like to have seen their photos...but that proved impossible.
A lead is only valuable in as far as it is followed to the end, which was not the case with this one. We will realise that we shouldn't have ruled it out so quickly, and that it is still a topic of interest. (GA)
Thanks for that, P/F.
No explanation from GA as to why it was impossible to view the photos the witness apparently still has in his possession.
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Thanks for that, P/F.
No explanation from GA as to why it was impossible to view the photos the witness apparently still has in his possession.
The German police were supposed to get their photos but they didn't.
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Whose job was it, Faith, when this guy was a numero uno suspect to the PJ in the very early days? Who was in charge?
So if Amaral failed to follow up a very important lead why are SY not questioning him now ?
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So if Amaral failed to follow up a very important lead why are SY not questioning him now ?
Better still, why not question him when they read all the report! at the beginning? He would have been my first port of call to clear up any misunderstanding.
Could Tannerman have passed the child onto Smith man?
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The German police were supposed to get their photos but they didn't.
From today's article:-
*snipped*
"Mr Krokowski revealed that although Polish police officers quizzed the couple and searched their apartment and the home of his father, they never confiscated his camera or inspected his pictures."
Again, P/F - an inadequate excuse from Amaral, who clearly was not on the ball at all.
"
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From today's article:-
*snipped*
"Mr Krokowski revealed that although Polish police officers quizzed the couple and searched their apartment and the home of his father, they never confiscated his camera or inspected his pictures."
Again, P/F - an inadequate excuse from Amaral, who clearly was not on the ball at all.
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Who was in possesion of this ball? Looks like it was the Polish police who messed up this one dilligance. Amaral, has no control over the Polish police or their justice system. Just saying...
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Who was in possesion of this ball? Looks like it was the Polish police who messed up this one dilligance. Amaral, has no control over the Polish police or their justice system. Just saying...
I was thinking something similar. Also the Polish police where looking for evidence of a live child being brought into the country, hence the searching of the houses. Photographs may not have been of any interest to them.
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Since the witness complained about this chap taking photos of his daughter, I would have thought that it was correct procedure to check this out. There could have been many reasons for him seeking a photo of a child who was blonde and blue eyed, or just children in general..Who knows?
As MTI has already pointed out there are reasons why he might have held his camera at waist height. Also with a top viewfinder this is where you would hold it, anyway.
My apologies if the statements below have already been posted on here.
Leicestershire Constabulary
From: Officer Waddington
To: DI Holden
Major Crime Intelligence Unit
Date: 8th May 2007
Subject: Polish Enquiries - Interpol Ref
Attached are a series of emails between Poland and SOCA regarding enquiries there.
In summary the identified Polish residents are:
A****** K********* J******** (female)
W******* K***** K****** (male)
Address: Warsaw
A***** is known to the police for an alcohol and drug driving offence in 2003 and obtaining property by deception. This means that there is a photograph and set of fingerprints attached from 2003.
They booked two seats over the internet on 25/03/2007 for flights from Berlin. They took seats 18 D or E, or 18C and D. Dates of travel however, have not been provided by investigators.
The reason for using Berlin airport is that there are no direct budget flights from Faro to Poland and this is a regular route by Polish travellers.
The couple were spoken to and deny any knowledge of Madeleine. Both their address and that of their parents was visited and there was no sign of any young child.
In addition the Polish authorities interviewed the passengers that were sitting next to them on the flight home. They confirm there was no child with them.
I have emailed a copy of this memo and the original emails to the Portuguese incident room.
Submitted for your information.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NUNO_LOURENCO.htm
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My apologies for putting my type into Misty's post I don't know how that happened.
Yes Jassi interesting they were looking for a live child-playing that game of she can't be dead if she is- we can't get any money in the fund? or how that would affect their rep.
You didn't scroll down far enough to The Quote Word.
I hope I have misunderstood your post. Otherwise it would be libellous.
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Who was in possesion of this ball? Looks like it was the Polish police who messed up this one dilligance. Amaral, has no control over the Polish police or their justice system. Just saying...
The Polish couple had left Portugal. They had the camera. Did Amaral neglect to ask Interpol to locate the camera?
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Why would they need the camera at that stage?
Wasn't it only the McCanns that wanted people's holiday pictures?
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The Polish couple had left Portugal. They had the camera. Did Amaral neglect to ask Interpol to locate the camera?
I doubt Interpol do that sort of thing.
Interpol
"The organization thus functions as an administrative liaison among the law enforcement agencies of the member countries, providing communications and database assistance, assisted via the central headquarters in Lyon, France."
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The Polish couple had left Portugal. They had the camera. Did Amaral neglect to ask Interpol to locate the camera?
You are on a road to nowhere on this one Misty,
181 to 191-Faxes and further information from Interpol regarding Polish couple
In the context of the investigation into the disappearance of the little British girl, Madeleine McCann, in Praia da Luz, during the night of May 3rd 2007, it is of vital concern for the investigation that the relevant authorities make enquiries about the citizens of Polish nationality, of whom the known details are, W.K., holder of Polish driving licence no. 6307...and xxxxxx K., partner of W.K., to find out if they have criminal records. They arrived at Faro airport on April 28th 2007 on flight Al32744 from Berlin and they left Faro, today, on Air Berlin flight AB2745. We also request information about the final destination of these two passengers.
The reason for the request is that those people were observed in Sagres having an unusual interest in a child very similar physically to the missing girl. They had stayed in an apartment in Burgau, a few kilometres away from the place of the disappearance. W.K. holds credit card number 5185 .... .... ....
*****************************************************************************************
This and the rest is all in the link Anna stated. Amaral is not responsible for not getting the camera, and the 'suspect, has no issue of stating he takes photographs of people and landscapes as he is a designer. He has also stated he had no issue of handing over his camera. Does this make him innocent or guilty I don't know. But you can hardly blame this one on Amaral.
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You are on a road to nowhere on this one Misty,
181 to 191-Faxes and further information from Interpol regarding Polish couple
In the context of the investigation into the disappearance of the little British girl, Madeleine McCann, in Praia da Luz, during the night of May 3rd 2007, it is of vital concern for the investigation that the relevant authorities make enquiries about the citizens of Polish nationality, of whom the known details are, W.K., holder of Polish driving licence no. 6307...and xxxxxx K., partner of W.K., to find out if they have criminal records. They arrived at Faro airport on April 28th 2007 on flight Al32744 from Berlin and they left Faro, today, on Air Berlin flight AB2745. We also request information about the final destination of these two passengers.
The reason for the request is that those people were observed in Sagres having an unusual interest in a child very similar physically to the missing girl. They had stayed in an apartment in Burgau, a few kilometres away from the place of the disappearance. W.K. holds credit card number 5185 .... .... ....
*****************************************************************************************
This and the rest is all in the link Anna stated. Amaral is not responsible for not getting the camera, and the 'suspect, has no issue of stating he takes photographs of people and landscapes as he is a designer. He has also stated he had no issue of handing over his camera. Does this make him innocent or guilty I don't know. But you can hardly blame this one on Amaral.
So who asked the Polish police to search the home? No ILOR?
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So who asked the Polish police to search the home? No ILOR?
Perhaps the Polish police did it on their own authority to ensure that the missing child was being concealed there.
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Perhaps the Polish police did it on their own authority to ensure that the missing child was being concealed there.
Really? How did the Polish police know where to look in the first place, and wouldn't they have required a warrant?
Certain people in Portugal seem to think Amaral is finally being vindicated for his annoyance at the camera not being confiscated.....
https://t.co/kVKBXRAEjy
Apparently there is a big article in Nova Gente, so I will try to find that.
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Really? How did the Polish police know where to look in the first place, and wouldn't they have required a warrant?
Certain people in Portugal seem to think Amaral is finally being vindicated for his annoyance at the camera not being confiscated.....
https://t.co/kVKBXRAEjy
Apparently there is a big article in Nova Gente, so I will try to find that.
They looked at the address where the couple lived and would presumably only need a warrant if the couple refused to allow the search.
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From today's article:-
*snipped*
"Mr Krokowski revealed that although Polish police officers quizzed the couple and searched their apartment and the home of his father, they never confiscated his camera or inspected his pictures."
Again, P/F - an inadequate excuse from Amaral, who clearly was not on the ball at all.
"
Amaral wanted to see the photos. Like he wanted background info on the McCanns and their friends which he didn't receive. Just blame him for everything if it makes you feel better. Anyway SY clearly don't have him as a prime suspect and he looks nothing like Smithman who had no car carrying the lookalike away.
In the book "Maddie Truth of the Lie" you mention a Polish lead and you say that it is a loose end…
GA: Nobody cares about that. We should have gone there or made a rogatory letter. They (Polish police) misunderstood the goal. They went looking for the child and we asked for an intervention to control them first. The issue was the photographs. The man never let go of the camera. We wanted to know what photographs were on the camera and if maybe there was one of Maddie.
Despite your theory that the girl died on that evening, wouldn't there be a possibility that this couple "dispatched" the child within a few hours?
GA: That is already speculation. We inspected the apartment where they were staying. Blood was even found inside the apartment and it was not Maddie's. We cannot forget that when we intervene, they are not in Portugal anymore.
Could you have gone further with this couple?
GA: We could. And if they were here in Portugal we could have done even more. But then the route of the investigation takes us elsewhere.
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Did Amaral ever send an ILOR about anything?
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The Polish couple had left Portugal. They had the camera. Did Amaral neglect to ask Interpol to locate the camera?
I have been under the impression that Mr Amaral had requested the contents of the camera since that was the whole point of the witness statement.
There are more ways to be involved in an abduction than actually carrying off and being in possession of the child.
The fuss being made reminds one of the hotel CCTV footage being scrubbed in Praia da Luz for which Mr Amaral claimed full responsibility for his officers' failure to follow his instructions.
As far as Scotland Yard and the Policia Judicairia not following through on the photographer ... who is kidding on that one?? Should he have had illicit photographic material encrypted at any time prior to or after Madeleine's disappearance ... what are the chances of him hanging onto it?
It is patently obvious whatever steps which could and should have been taken at the time were ignored ... and I think the man himself gives the major clue as to why he didn't bother ...
**Snip
Could you have gone further with this couple?
GA: We could. And if they were here in Portugal we could have done even more. But then the route of the investigation takes us elsewhere.
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So who asked the Polish police to search the home? No ILOR?
I have pondered this question on a number of occasions, and this is where I have reached, whether correct or not.
ILORs seem to be required in this case mainly because a prosecution would take place in Portugal under Portuguese laws. Therefore every request from OG has to be ILORed in order to make sure that it can be proved the request has been scrutinised, and as such the resulting evidence can be used in a prosecution.
It does not seem to work quite the same way in terms of requests coming from Portugal and going to other countries.
The other countries need to show they have acted legally, no more and no less. So an ILOR would be required only where something unreasonable was being requested under the receiving countries law e.g. get DNA from person X whether they wish to provide it or not.
In terms of the house search, it looks like the Polish bloke was happy that his house was searched, therefore not even a search warrant was required, let alone an ILOR.
As to the photos, unless the reporting is particularly skewed, we know the woman had previous convictions, but there is nothing to suggest the man did.
He does not appear to have been known as a paedophile. He does not appear to have been known in connection with child trafficking.
He got off the plane in Berlin(?) If he was involved in paedophile or child snatching activities, would he still have the evidence at that time? And if he did, would he have had it when he got back to Poland?
At this point in time, it looks like a bit of finger-pointing at 'incompetent Polish police', a variation of 'incompetent Portuguese police', but perhaps I am being cynical.
Finally, does anyone believe for a second that he held on to incriminating evidence for over 8 years? Or that when the Mirror turned up he handed over self-incriminating evidence to them, to pass it to OG?
Now OG has one more strand of donkey work - to prove that dozens or hundreds of photos taken supposedly in the region between Burgau and Sagres have nothing to do with Madeleine.
I don't know how major police operations prioritise 'leads', but whatever the lowest priority is, my money is on that.
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Did Amaral ever send an ILOR about anything?
It wasn't up to Gonçalo Amaral to send any ILORs since that is the responsibility of the Ministério Público.
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It wasn't up to Gonçalo Amaral to send any ILORs since that is the responsibility of the Ministério Público.
My understanding is that a request is prepared by the PJ (they know what information they're seeking), then it gets passed to the prosecutor for approval and sending it to the foreign authority. If you examine the Rebelo team's rog requests, they are on PJ-headed paper with the prosecutor's name at the bottom.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RESPONSE-ROGATORY.htm
Looking through them, someone (TdeA?) in Amaral's team did actually get close to preparing one, but the prosecutor didn't seem too impressed with it - and I can't find any follow-up addendum.
10-Processo 10 Page 2609
10VOLUME_Xa_Page_2609
MoPo assessment regarding deficiency of rogatory request Conclusion dated 4 September 2007.
The preceding information relating to the request for having rogatory letters drawn up is manifestly insufficient and it does not state the identity of the people in the group of McCann friends whose clothing should be authorised for inspection by the dogs, nor does it identify the PJ officers who intend to conduct [collaborate in the doing of] the work, hence I have already contacted the Investigation Coordinator who is going to arrange for the submission of an addendum.
Therefore the file awaits for 8 days if, in the meantime, nothing [else] is advised or added.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RESPONSE-ROGATORY.htm#p10p2609
What on earth they thought they'd achieve by sending the dogs to sniff out the T7's clothes four months after the events is beyond my comprehension skills. As it doesn't appear to have been taken any further, I assume that the idea was quietly dropped.
ETA: I can't find any ILOR concerning the Polish situation, and if one had been sent with that level of vagueness, I'm not surprised that the Polish authorities were confused as to what they were being asked to do.
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It's very simple. Eddie should not alert to any clothes with no blood on them. If he does then the police are going to find out why.
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It's very simple. Eddie should not alert to any clothes with no blood on them. If he does then the police are going to find out why.
Eddie only alerted to cuddle-cat after it had been hidden in the cupboard; not while he could see it, sniff it, and pick it up.
Why?
And to deny that that happened is to call Martin Grime a liar ...
And before lady moderator boxes my ears for being off-topic, it wasn't me wot started it ....
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Eddie only alerted to cuddle-cat after it had been hidden in the cupboard; not while he could see it, sniff it, and pick it up.
Why?
And to deny that that happened is to call Martin Grime a liar ...
And before lady moderator boxes my ears for being off-topic, it wasn't me wot started it ....
To bring it back to topic, I still can't find any ILORs from Amaral concerning the Polish situation.
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To bring it back to topic, I still can't find any ILORs from Amaral concerning the Polish situation.
Could it have come from Leicestershire police?
I believe the Polish police were invited, to search their residence.
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Could it have come from Leicestershire police?
I believe the Polish police were invited, to search their residence.
Various police forces seem to have cooperated in the immediate aftermath as an emergency situation, possibly with a very brief court order to search premises.
However, I don't see how confiscating personal belongings such as cameras, laptops or anything else could happen without a duly substantiated ILOR, and I can't find any trace of Amaral's team having done so.
Early on, the UK police did conduct a creditworthiness check on the T9, which Amaral apparently wanted, but who managed to misunderstand the result as meaning that they didn't have bank cards for some reason. His "misunderstanding" was duly leaked to the PT tabloids and still gets repeated today.
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Various police forces seem to have cooperated in the immediate aftermath as an emergency situation, possibly with a very brief court order to search premises.
However, I don't see how confiscating personal belongings such as cameras, laptops or anything else could happen without a duly substantiated ILOR, and I can't find any trace of Amaral's team having done so.
Early on, the UK police did conduct a creditworthiness check on the T9, which Amaral apparently wanted, but who managed to misunderstand the result as meaning that they didn't have bank cards for some reason. His "misunderstanding" was duly leaked to the PT tabloids and still gets repeated today.
Thanks Carana.
I guess we will never know what was going on behind the scenes.
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This couple owned a successful interiors business, yet chose to spend 30 + hours on planes and trains for a 1 week holiday in a fairly grim 1 bedroom apartment without a pool/garden. Apart from the Tannerman e-fit and Lourenco statement, their apartment had haplotypes of both Robert Murat and Jane Tanner. (Jane Tanner's daughter spent the last afternoon playing with Madeleine, so there could have easily been transference, but I doubt the hairs were tested against hers). Interesting that this man is finally in the press after all this time and that they were never properly scrutinised.
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This couple owned a successful interiors business, yet chose to spend 30 + hours on planes and trains for a 1 week holiday in a fairly grim 1 bedroom apartment without a pool/garden. Apart from the Tannerman e-fit and Lourenco statement, their apartment had haplotypes of both Robert Murat and Jane Tanner. (Jane Tanner's daughter spent the last afternoon playing with Madeleine, so there could have easily been transference, but I doubt the hairs were tested against hers). Interesting that this man is finally in the press after all this time and that they were never properly scrutinised.
The hapolyte of hundreds and thousands ??? Get yur FACTS right KMC!
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This couple owned a successful interiors business, yet chose to spend 30 + hours on planes and trains for a 1 week holiday in a fairly grim 1 bedroom apartment without a pool/garden. Apart from the Tannerman e-fit and Lourenco statement, their apartment had haplotypes of both Robert Murat and Jane Tanner. (Jane Tanner's daughter spent the last afternoon playing with Madeleine, so there could have easily been transference, but I doubt the hairs were tested against hers). Interesting that this man is finally in the press after all this time and that they were never properly scrutinised.
I believe that he said. they didn't like beach holidays. It will be interesting to see what comes of this. If anything at all.
It is sad that they had no children of their own and his wife could see him taking photos of other people's children. On the other hand, maybe she didn't want children........Who knows?
Maybe the holiday was meant just for a keen photographer and his interests.
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I believe that he said. they didn't like beach holidays. It will be interesting to see what comes of this. If anything at all.
It is sad that they had no children of their own and his wife could see him taking photos of other people's children. On the other hand, maybe she didn't want children........Who knows?
Maybe the holiday was meant just for a keen photographer and his interests.
I don't like beach holidays either. I do enjoy walking along a beach but I wouldn't want to spend any length of time sitting on one
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I believe that he said. they didn't like beach holidays. It will be interesting to see what comes of this. If anything at all.
It is sad that they had no children of their own and his wife could see him taking photos of other people's children. On the other hand, maybe she didn't want children........Who knows?
Maybe the holiday was meant just for a keen photographer and his interests.
Hmmm, you may want to clarify what you meant by the last sentence. I don't think you meant what it seems to imply.
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Hmmm, you may want to clarify what you meant by the last sentence. I don't think you meant what it seems to imply.
It means exactly what it says. He was a photographer who had interests.... in photographing people of all ages as he stated in his press article.
Please don't read things unsaid in my posts.
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Hmmm, you may want to clarify what you meant by the last sentence. I don't think you meant what it seems to imply.
Nice to see a Mod being ultra sensitive to what seems to be the implication behind the poster's words - perhaps you'd like to take a look at Faithlilly's avatar while you're at it?
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Nice to see a Mod being ultra sensitive to what seems to be the implication behind the poster's words - perhaps you'd like to take a look at Faithlilly's avatar while you're at it?
Don't you like literary quotes Alfie ?
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Don't you like literary quotes Alfie ?
Apparently, according to this forum's Admin, your avatar is simply a general observation about doctors and nothing at all libellous can be inferred from the fact that it appears alongside your many thousands of posts about the Drs McCann, so that's alright then, innit?
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It means exactly what it says. He was a photographer who had interests.... in photographing people of all ages as he stated in his press article.
Please don't read things unsaid in my posts.
People have had serious libel problems with "unsaid" things, it was just an observation.
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People have had serious libel problems with "unsaid" things, it was just an observation.
@)(++(*
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Apparently, according to this forum's Admin, your avatar is simply a general observation about doctors and nothing at all libellous can be inferred from the fact that it appears alongside your many thousands of posts about the Drs McCann, so that's alright then, innit?
Yep !
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Yep !
When I read your avatar I always assume it refers to "Dr" Amaral anyway so all good! 8((()*/
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When I read your avatar I always assume it refers to "Dr" Amaral anyway so all good! 8((()*/
Certainly is 8((()*/
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Certainly is 8((()*/
Is that an admission that your quote refers to "Dr" Amaral? How shocking!