UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Myster on November 14, 2014, 11:04:05 PM
-
You're a right little rummager, our Holly... never heard those tapes before! 8((()*/
But what a load of absolute twaddle!!! ?8)@)-)
Said he rang Julie at 10pm, but never mentioned what he did tell her, i.e. - "Tonights the night!",
or anything about ringing her again at 3am to say - "Everything's going well... there's trouble at the farm!"
Yet he managed to remember what his dad said - "Please come over, your sister has gone crazy and has the gun" (note: not your rifle!)... so he wastes time trying to dial back... TWICE!!... then instead of getting his butt over there sharpish, wastes another ten minutes thumbing through a telephone directory for what should have been a 999 emergency call.
Mind you, Bamber's well practiced, having had thirty years to get it off pat!
-
You're a right little rummager, our Holly... never heard those tapes before! 8((()*/
But what a load of absolute twaddle!!! ?8)@)-)
Said he rang Julie at 10pm, but never mentioned what he did tell her, i.e. - "Tonights the night!",
or anything about ringing her again at 3am to say - "Everything's going well... there's trouble at the farm!"
Yet he managed to remember what his dad said - "Please come over, your sister has gone crazy and has the gun" (note: not your rifle!)... so he wastes time trying to dial back... TWICE!!... then instead of getting his butt over there sharpish, wastes another ten minutes thumbing through a telephone directory for what should have been a 999 emergency call.
Mind you, Bamber's well practiced, having had thirty years to get it off pat!
Lol he only had 70 seconds in the Daily Mirror clip! Surprised prisoners are allowed to air their grievances this way.
If the call happened as JB said it did then I can understand why he reacted the way he did:
- JB would think the situation was manageable, hence NB was calling JB
- The call ended abruptly before JB could ask what was required of him
- JB attempted to call back and was unable to do so as the line was engaged. He may well have thought NB was on the phone to someone else.
I can understand JB not really knowing what to do especially given NB's reluctance to involve "organisations" in his affairs and his preference to keep family matters private. As far as JB was concerned the matter was not necessarily critical. He may have thought if he rang the local station they would send a local patrol car and it would be low-key. Whereas 999 it would be all sirens and flashing lights.
-
JB initially said that he received a call from his father at 03:10 and that he immediately called the police (after looking up the number which took 10 mins). Since the (so called) finding of Jeremy's phone log, the claims are now that he called police at 03:36 (to coincide with the time on the log). Why and how could there be such a discrepancy? Memory doesn't get better with time so early recollections about timings surely carry more weight. Also any 'new' evidence would have to fit the original tale, rather than create a new one to include it?
-
JB initially said that he received a call from his father at 03:10 and that he immediately called the police (after looking up the number which took 10 mins). Since the (so called) finding of Jeremy's phone log, the claims are now that he called police at 03:36 (to coincide with the time on the log). Why and how could there be such a discrepancy? Memory doesn't get better with time so early recollections about timings surely carry more weight. Also any 'new' evidence would have to fit the original tale, rather than create a new one to include it?
I'm not really sure of the point(s) you're endeavouring to make? However firstly JB did not immediately call the police. He said he attempted to recall WHF at least twice and heard the engaged tone. We do not have JB's original WS on this forum and since a certain person banned me for life from The Jeremy Bamber forum I am unable to access it to check out his original claim over the time! No concrete audit trail exists re the phone calls that could be considered reliable eg digital/satellite technology. How did JB gauge the time of the call? Did he look at a clock immediately? And if so was the clock checked for accuracy?
If JB received a call as he claims he was unlikely to think at the time 'I had better call the speaking clock before doing anything to make a note in my diary of the time dad called. I will need this for my WS's, police interviews and trial when I am accused of murdering my entire immediate family' 8(0(*
-
I'm not really sure of the point(s) you're endeavouring to make? However firstly JB did not immediately call the police. He said he attempted to recall WHF at least twice and heard the engaged tone. We do not have JB's original WS on this forum and since a certain person banned me for life from The Jeremy Bamber forum I am unable to access it to check out his original claim over the time! No concrete audit trail exists re the phone calls that could be considered reliable eg digital/satellite technology. How did JB gauge the time of the call? Did he look at a clock immediately? And if so was the clock checked for accuracy?
If JB received a call as he claims he was unlikely to think at the time 'I had better call the speaking clock before doing anything to make a note in my diary of the time dad called. I will need this for my WS's, police interviews and trial when I am accused of murdering my entire immediate family' 8(0(*
The 'point' is that his initial story was changed re timings to fit in a call from Neville (I thought I made it clear but oh well). Jeremy gave the time of 03:10 for the initial call and at no point did he state that it took him over 20 minutes to make the call to police. At various times he claimed that he thought his dad might have been already hurt and to West, that he sounded terrified. To argue that he would wait over 20 minutes before calling police is too far fetched and also changing the times to suit a new avenue is suspicious. By the way, I didn't ban you for life, I banned you for a week! 8(0(*
I'm sure there was no need to call the speaking clock, I'm sure he had a clock and a watch and when someone calls in the early hours, you tend to look at the time! 8(0(*
-
The 'point' is that his initial story was changed re timings to fit in a call from Neville (I thought I made it clear but oh well). Jeremy gave the time of 03:10 for the initial call and at no point did he state that it took him over 20 minutes to make the call to police. At various times he claimed that he thought his dad might have been already hurt and to West, that he sounded terrified. To argue that he would wait over 20 minutes before calling police is too far fetched and also changing the times to suit a new avenue is suspicious. By the way, I didn't ban you for life, I banned you for a week! 8(0(*
I'm sure there was no need to call the speaking clock, I'm sure he had a clock and a watch and when someone calls in the early hours, you tend to look at the time! 8(0(*
JB's initial WS re the 3.10am call
The accounts that JB thought NB was already physically injured
West's WS re JB claiming NB sounded terrified (I don't disbelieve this but would like to see the doc evidence)
I have already posted that imo it is not inconceivable that JB phoned JM prior to phoning EP to discuss the matter and seek her opinion:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5559.msg198101#msg198101
Whether JB automatically looked at a clock/watch is highly subjective. You might. I might. Doesn't mean to say that JB did 8(0(*
-
(I thought I made it clear but oh well) unlike you I don't have the benefit of all the docs on Blue to hand as a certain poster banned me for a week/life for making jibes at Clappy and Mingham 8(0(* I find it interesting that you have followed me here. If the truth be known I think you are really rather fond of me 8(0(*
May I suggest you post the documentary evidence:
JB's initial WS re the 3.10am call
The accounts that JB thought NB was already physically injured
West's WS re JB claiming NB sounded terrified (I don't disbelieve this but would like to see the doc evidence)
I have already posted that imo it is not inconceivable that JB phoned JM prior to phoning EP to discuss the matter and seek her opinion:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5559.msg198101#msg198101
Whether JB automatically looked at a clock/watch is highly subjective. You might. I might. Doesn't mean to say that JB did 8(0(*
I'll look for the docs and post them later (JB's and Wests WS). As for calling Julie first, when I asked him he said he called the police first. Also, if he wasn't sure about timings, surely he'd have said so but he said 'about 03:10' and even though the word 'about' is included, it's still quite specific.
Oh and I didn't follow you here, I was 'invited' to join 8(0(* BUT I have no problem with you and I find your posts (about the case) interesting.
-
I'll look for the docs and post them later (JB's and Wests WS). As for calling Julie first, when I asked him he said he called the police first. Also, if he wasn't sure about timings, surely he'd have said so but he said 'about 03:10' and even though the word 'about' is included, it's still quite specific.
Oh and I didn't follow you here, I was 'invited' to join 8(0(* BUT I have no problem with you and I find your posts (about the case) interesting.
Look forward to reading the docs. Anything you have to support your claims that JB claims NB was already hurt would be good too 8((()*/
Interesting that you have engaged in communication with JB and asked him questions about the case. I have, as you know from my posts, engaged in communication with JB but have never asked him a single question about the case. The reason I haven't is that I just don't feel he can really tell me anything. If he's innocent what would he know that I don't? If he's guilty he's unlikely to answer truthfully.
I personally think he probably called JM first but feels embarrassed about admitting it. What would be the purpose of calling JM after EP? I think he called JM to sound her out. If not why wake her and others at a very unsociable hour? Even if he was unsure of the exact time he must have known it was late at night/early morning, a week day and others had work/lectures to attend the following day?
Well unlike you I joined here of my own free will many months prior to my ban. I didn't need a personal invitation, I took the bull by the horns 8(0(* Bet you were surprised when I popped up with a post count @)(++(* You cant keep a good dog down 8(0(*
-
(I thought I made it clear but oh well) unlike you I don't have the benefit of all the docs on Blue to hand as a certain poster banned me for a week/life for making jibes at Clappy and Mingham 8(0(* I find it interesting that you have followed me here. If the truth be known I think you are really rather fond of me 8(0(*
May I suggest you post the documentary evidence:
JB's initial WS re the 3.10am call
The accounts that JB thought NB was already physically injured
West's WS re JB claiming NB sounded terrified (I don't disbelieve this but would like to see the doc evidence)
I have already posted that imo it is not inconceivable that JB phoned JM prior to phoning EP to discuss the matter and seek her opinion:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5559.msg198101#msg198101
Whether JB automatically looked at a clock/watch is highly subjective. You might. I might. Doesn't mean to say that JB did 8(0(*
Jeremy ringing Julie to seek her opinion 8)-))).
He had already rang the police who had told him what to do. The police asked him why he phoned Julie. He said 'no comment'.
-
Jeremy ringing Julie to seek her opinion 8)-))).
He had already rang the police who had told him what to do. The police asked him why he phoned Julie. He said 'no comment'.
Yes. In her initial WS she said she had a good friendly relationship with the whole family and was better able to communicate with SC whereas JB would get stuck for words so why not? If JB was unsure of what action to take and JM was familiar with the family and SC why wouldn't he phone her to discuss? She was his girlfriend. I might have done similar with a boyfriend. There's no precedent for these sorts of events. If you found yourself in such a situation you might have done similar. It's ok with the benefit of hindsight saying what you think you would or wouldn't have done:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=282.0;attach=1010
It's all subjective Adam. There's no evidence whatsoever that NB called police or didn't. Or that JB called JM first or second. Please remember it was over a month after the tragedy that JB was grilled about the phone calls. Meanwhile he had buried 5 members of him family, numbed out on booze, cannabis and prescription drugs and bedded several women. A bit hazy I would say &%+((£ If you don't believe NB called JB then I think its extremely unlikely that you're going to change your mind by anything I might say. Likewise I doubt there's anything you can say that will make me change my mind. You need to understand how beliefs are formed.
The police were attempting to tie JB in knots. They were notorious throughout the 80's for doing this often with disastrous outcomes eg many of the high profile MoJ's of the 80's involve police misconduct during interviews.
Btw I assume the favour I asked in a pm is a no-goer?
-
Yes Julie did say she got on better with Sheila than Jeremy did.
Perhaps Neville should have called her as well. He seemed to call everyone else.
-
Look forward to reading the docs. Anything you have to support your claims that JB claims NB was already hurt would be good too 8((()*/
Interesting that you have engaged in communication with JB and asked him questions about the case. I have, as you know from my posts, engaged in communication with JB but have never asked him a single question about the case. The reason I haven't is that I just don't feel he can really tell me anything. If he's innocent what would he know that I don't? If he's guilty he's unlikely to answer truthfully.
I personally think he probably called JM first but feels embarrassed about admitting it. What would be the purpose of calling JM after EP? I think he called JM to sound her out. If not why wake her and others at a very unsociable hour? Even if he was unsure of the exact time he must have known it was late at night/early morning, a week day and others had work/lectures to attend the following day?
Well unlike you I joined here of my own free will many months prior to my ban. I didn't need a personal invitation, I took the bull by the horns 8(0(* Bet you were surprised when I popped up with a post count @)(++(* You cant keep a good dog down 8(0(*
I have no other reason for wanting to write to JB other than to ask stuff about the case but Initially I just sent an email on the email a prisoner site (mentioned on the OS). I just wished him well after watching CTSB. I didn't realise he would get my address so was a bit taken aback when I got the first letter.
I think he called JM first as well but not for the reason you do, I think he called to back-up his story that his father called him. What better than waking up the whole household - not just one witness but several! Of course he knew he would wake them all - that was the intention!
Good on you for grabbing the bulls horns (whatever turns you on) - not sure what you mean by a 'post count'? I have a good dog - he's actually lying down as I type!! @)(++(*
I haven't forgotten abut the docs!!
-
Yes Julie did say she got on better with Sheila than Jeremy did.
Perhaps Neville should have called her as well. He seemed to call everyone else.
You're not by any chance being facetious, are you? &%+((£
Now who else did NB call on that fateful night/morning? Imo JB only. I don't believe there was a call from NB to EP.
-
I have no other reason for wanting to write to JB other than to ask stuff about the case but Initially I just sent an email on the email a prisoner site (mentioned on the OS). I just wished him well after watching CTSB. I didn't realise he would get my address so was a bit taken aback when I got the first letter.
I think he called JM first as well but not for the reason you do, I think he called to back-up his story that his father called him. What better than waking up the whole household - not just one witness but several! Of course he knew he would wake them all - that was the intention!
I haven't forgotten abut the docs!!
I've never understood the general claim that JB invented the call from NB and phoned JM to provide some sort of alibi. It doesn't prove anything as evidenced by the fact we are discussing/debating/disputing it nearly 3 decades later! I can't recall the person that answered the phone but it wasn't JM. If JB wanted several witnesses, as you claim, why not discuss the matter with him/her too before getting put through to JM? I don't believe he did discuss? In fact I am not sure what was said with the person who answered the phone? When JM changed her version of events she said JB said in his 10pm phone call "Tonights the night". She has never claimed that part of JB's plan was to call her after carrying out his murderous plan to provide an alibi of sorts. Why not? Afterthought on JB's part? JM wanted to hold back? Or JB genuinely phoned JM to seek her opinion having received the call from NB?
Back maybe tomorrow/early next week. I'll watch out for the docs.
-
I've never understood the general claim that JB invented the call from NB and phoned JM to provide some sort of alibi. It doesn't prove anything as evidenced by the fact we are discussing/debating/disputing it nearly 3 decades later! I can't recall the person that answered the phone but it wasn't JM. If JB wanted several witnesses, as you claim, why not discuss the matter with him/her too before getting put through to JM? I don't believe he did discuss? In fact I am not sure what was said with the person who answered the phone? When JM changed her version of events she said JB said in his 10pm phone call "Tonights the night". She has never claimed that part of JB's plan was to call her after carrying out his murderous plan to provide an alibi of sorts. Why not? Afterthought on JB's part? JM wanted to hold back? Or JB genuinely phoned JM to seek her opinion having received the call from NB?
Back maybe tomorrow/early next week. I'll watch out for the docs.
If you think he's innocent, you perhaps can't see the call as quite calculating but why call JM at all - just call the police or go over there. The fact that he called JM (who could be no use to him whatsoever) is (to me) suspect. I don't fully believe JM's version either and think there is a lot more that she didn't say.
I actually wasn't surprised by your post count because I didn't notice it - soz! ?{)(**
We don't share a brush, he doesn't have bad breath (he's only young) and he ain't allowed on the sofa (he wouldn't fit on the sofa) 8(0(*
-
I don't believe Jeremy called Julie as an alibi attempt. If he had thought about it beforehand he would know a call would cause more harm than good. He probably didn't think about it.
As he said to Julie, he thought he was 'watertight' and it was an 'open and shut case'. He was right. At first.
So he expected his 3am phone call to Julie would never even be discussed. Sadly it was discussed, and has since done Jeremy no favours.
The first chance he had to justify his call to Julie was in his police interview. His answer 'no comment'.
Phoning Julie at 3am does not establish an alibi in any way for the 10pm - 3.00am period. In fact, the judge suggested he called Julie before receiving Neville's call.
There are lots of reasons he called Julie at 3am. Excitement, wanting to boast & giving Julie discreet advanced warning that she will have to come to Essex later that morning. Two hours later Jeremy rang Julie to say 'I've only got one 10p. A police car is coming to pick you up.
It may have been a spur of the moment decision, he had just massacred his family so not thinking rationally.
-
I don't believe Jeremy called Julie as an alibi attempt. If he had thought about it beforehand he would know a call would cause more harm than good. He probably didn't think about it.
As he said to Julie, he thought he was 'watertight' and it was an 'open and shut case'. He was right. At first.
So he expected his 3am phone call to Julie would never even be discussed. Sadly it was discussed, and has since done Jeremy no favours.
The first chance he had to justify his call to Julie was in his police interview. His answer 'no comment'.
Phoning Julie at 3am does not establish an alibi in any way for the 10pm - 3.00am period. In fact, the judge suggested he called Julie before receiving Neville's call.
There are lots of reasons he called Julie at 3am. Excitement, wanting to boast & giving Julie discreet advanced warning that she will have to come to Essex later that morning. Two hours later Jeremy rang Julie to say 'I've only got one 10p. A police car is coming to pick you up.
It may have been a spur of the moment decision, he had just massacred his family so not thinking rationally.
He didn't think it would be discussed? There were other people in the flat who also heard the call so that would be a pretty dumb assumption on his part. Also, if he wanted to keep it quiet, he'd have told Julie not to mention it because she does mention it in her statement!
-
He didn't expect to ever be a suspect. So his actions would not be discussed.
-
He didn't expect to ever be a suspect. So his actions would not be discussed.
As the only remaining member of the family, he would be an idiot not to imagine that he MIGHT be considered. The alleged call from Neville was his alibi, just his say so that he received one might not be enough, but if he could get others to corroborate the event (even if only through hearsay) then all to the good. The phone call makes or breaks him and it's why it could only be Sheila or Jeremy. He had to have at least considered that he'd be a suspect or wouldn't have used the phone call from Nevil as an alibi
-
As the only remaining member of the family, he would be an idiot not to imagine that he MIGHT be considered. The alleged call from Neville was his alibi, just his say so that he received one might not be enough, but if he could get others to corroborate the event (even if only through hearsay) then all to the good. The phone call makes or breaks him and if why it could only be Sheila or Jeremy. He had to have at least considered that he'd be a suspect or wouldn't have used the phone call from Nevil as an alibi
You think Jeremy had planned to ring Julie when returning to WHF, as part of his plan and a strange alibi attempt. Although it in no way covers the 10pm -3am period. I believe it was more of a spur of the moment decision that he did not give much thought about.
Jeremy said 'no comment' when asked by the police a month later. Then testified that he rang Julie because he 'wanted to hear a friendly voice'. That cut no ice with the 2002 appeal judges who said it was 'remarkable' Jeremy rang Julie in these circumstances.
-
Ground 4 – timing of telephone call to Julie Mugford 289. Ground 4 relates to the first telephone call made by the appellant to Julie Mugford on the night of the killing. The prosecution contended at trial that this preceded the telephone call to the police, whilst the appellant asserted that it was made after he had telephoned the police and before he left home to go to the farmhouse.
It has to be said that whichever version is right, it was remarkable that the appellant made such a call. On his own version he had just received a dramatic plea for help from his father, he had rung the police and had been asked to go to meet officers at the farm. Yet he delayed for long enough to make a telephone call to someone many miles away, who could not possibly help in the situation. However, it clearly was even less likely that he would have telephoned before he rang the police and if the call was shortly after 3 a.m. it was wholly inconsistent with his account and only consistent with the account of Julie Mugford as to the nature of that call. Thus timing of that call, if it could be determined by the jury was of importance.
-
If you think he's innocent, you perhaps can't see the call as quite calculating but why call JM at all - just call the police or go over there. The fact that he called JM (who could be no use to him whatsoever) is (to me) suspect. I don't fully believe JM's version either and think there is a lot more that she didn't say.
I actually wasn't surprised by your post count because I didn't notice it - soz! ?{)(**
We don't share a brush, he doesn't have bad breath (he's only young) and he ain't allowed on the sofa (he wouldn't fit on the sofa) 8(0(*
As with the jury, posters attribute different weight to various aspects of the case. The phone calls have never been a biggie for me.
You say why call JM? And why not just go over there or phone the police? The fact is you could present such a scenario to a cross section of society, remove the WHF case, and ask them what they would do and I think you would be surprised by all the variations.
We're not JB. We don't have the intimate knowledge of NB and SC that JB had. I put a lot of weight on NB's low opinion of the police and possibly state run services in general. And his desire to keep family matters private. Along with JB's understanding of these facts. To my mind JB was very concerned about following NB's orders. Not that I think NB was the authoritarian type - on the contrary - but I think JB held him in high esteem and wouldn't want to call it wrong by having police cars turn up sirens sounding, lights flashing at WHF only to find it was a manageable domestic and NB ends up feeling embarrassed especially being a local magistrate.
If you didn't notice my post count then it shows you dont notice details and nuances which is unhelpful when trying to work out the WHF case &%+((£
Sensible not letting your doggy on the sofa. After all we wouldn't want you with a hairy bottom would we? 8(0(* @)(++(*
-
As with the jury, posters attribute different weight to various aspects of the case. The phone calls have never been a biggie for me.
You say why call JM? And why not just go over there or phone the police? The fact is you could present such a scenario to a cross section of society, remove the WHF case, and ask them what they would do and I think you would be surprised by all the variations.
We're not JB. We don't have the intimate knowledge of NB and SC that JB had. I put a lot of weight on NB's low opinion of the police and possibly state run services in general. And his desire to keep family matters private. Along with JB's understanding of these facts. To my mind JB was very concerned about following NB's orders. Not that I think NB was the authoritarian type - on the contrary - but I think JB held him in high esteem and wouldn't want to call it wrong by having police cars turn up sirens sounding, lights flashing at WHF only to find it was a manageable domestic and NB ends up feeling embarrassed especially being a local magistrate.
If you didn't notice my post count then it shows you dont notice details and nuances which is unhelpful when trying to work out the WHF case &%+((£
Sensible not letting your doggy on the sofa. After all we wouldn't want you with a hairy bottom would we? 8(0(* @)(++(*
Yes Jeremy claimed that Neville liked to keep family matters private. Keeping to this stance throughout the trial. Which makes it strange that Jeremy 'immediately' (well 26 minutes later) called the police, which was against his fathers wishes. Especially as Neville had obviously rang Jeremy to keep the issue 'in house'.
Hang on, isn't Jeremy now saying Neville called the police ?
-
*&(+(+ for JB's WS's
He offers up loads of info in his WS. Sounds a bit old womanish? He's just someone who provides loads of detail. Look how I ramble on in my posts? The fact he identified the three tv progs he watched I find insignificant. I might find it significant if he wasn't big on detail in other areas but that's not the case is it? Interestingly I remember when I read it the first time I thought how spooky he watched a program re miscarriages as in MoJ. Then months later Saggie posted and made ref to it in terms of miscarrying babies. See how minds interpret the same info differently? Unless we asked JB we would have no idea who is correct: miscarriages of justice or miscarrying babies.
I find it interesting/sad that he states when he left everyone was happy. If he wanted to set the scene why not lie/embellish that there was a tense atmosphere, arguing, SC was upset etc?
No mention of the movement at the window.
Also note he states they left Colin's party at midnight to take SC home. And JM states in her WS 11.45pm Obviously nothing sinister here just shows how estimated times of historical events can easily be out. Don't forget it was a month until EP started drilling down with JB.
JB - Midnight
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5576.0;attach=4541
JM - 11.45pm
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=282.0;attach=1010
3.10am is a funny time. Normally you would say approx to the nearest 15 mins on the hour? I thought he relied on others for the times of his call. I thought JM phoned her friend from Goldhager on the 7th to ascertain a time for JB/his WS? I can't get all hung up on the phone calls. I can see how they could look suspicious if you're that way inclined but when I look at the bigger picture it stacks up in my mind.
My advice form your own opinions from your own research. You sound like you've been looking for answers from JB and the little island man and gone off the rails/got confused. 8(0(*
It is often the VERY LITTLE things that get people caught!
Jeremy didn't ask JM to tell him what time Nevill called, how would she know? He gave the time as 03:10! She may have checked on the time he called her but not for a time when Nevill (allegedly) called.
I'm not confused at all, in fact quite the opposite but I could say the same about you. My advice would be to ask him about the case or you're just wasting an opportunity to learn the truth. It's not just the things that people say that are important, but the things they avoid answering! 8(0(*
-
I can't believe you just said that! What could be clearer and more urgent than - "Please come over, Sheila's gone crazy and has the gun!"
-
It is often the VERY LITTLE things that get people caught!
Jeremy didn't ask JM to tell him what time Nevill called, how would she know? He gave the time as 03:10! She may have checked on the time he called her but not for a time when Nevill (allegedly) called.
I'm not confused at all, in fact quite the opposite but I could say the same about you. My advice would be to ask him about the case or you're just wasting an opportunity to learn the truth. It's not just the things that people say that are important, but the things they avoid answering! 8(0(*
Yes it is often the little things that catch people out 8(0(* but with regards to the phone calls we do not have one single piece of reliable evidence in which to make reliable decisions about all the other pieces.
Yes JB gave the time of 3.10am but I believe this was based on JM calling her flatmate and JB working out the approx. time from that? According to AE JB gave the time of 3.00am.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?PHPSESSID=3t67cpcljgqmdeg39f9rpi99l4&action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=2189
JB has been incarcerated for almost 30 years. Can you remember all the details of what you were doing 30 years ago? If he's innocent no doubt it was all very traumatic and that doesn't tend to act as an aide memoire! He has limited access to the outside world and I honestly don't think he could help me in my understanding of the WHF case. My letters/cards have been largely unspecific. I have just let him know my interest in the case and that I believe he is the victim of a MoJ. I think he is kept busy working on his case, dealing with his campaign and legal team, book authors and others. I doubt if he even knows who I am ie remembers my letters/cards. Why would he? You seem to see yourself as someone important and that he should go out of his way to answer all your queries sweating his balls off moving his floor to ceiling wall to wall docs in his cell hunting for tiny bits of paper re 'the wallet' @)(++(*
-
I can't believe you just said that! What could be clearer and more urgent than - "Please come over, Sheila's gone crazy and has the gun!"
Clear to you Myster. Not for JB. He wanted more detail as per the following clip 1 in the Daily Mirror:
"...you know I need more information what, where, how you know what do you need me to do, how can I..."
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/the-jeremy-bamber-files-exclusive-audio-191151
-
Yes Jeremy claimed that Neville liked to keep family matters private. Keeping to this stance throughout the trial. Which makes it strange that Jeremy 'immediately' (well 26 minutes later) called the police, which was against his fathers wishes. Especially as Neville had obviously rang Jeremy to keep the issue 'in house'.
Hang on, isn't Jeremy now saying Neville called the police ?
Adam as JB lost contact with NB obviously this threw a different light on things. Had NB been able to continue the conversation then JB would have followed through on NB's instructions. I think the reason JB called the local police as opposed to 999 was an attempt to keep it as low-key as possible.
I think it unlikely NB called EP but I haven't looked into this enough to say one way or the other. I guess if JB is innocent he clutches at any little thing that he feels might prove this.
-
Clear to you Myster. Not for JB. He wanted more detail as per the following clip 1 in the Daily Mirror:
"...you know I need more information what, where, how you know what do you need me to do, how can I..."
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/the-jeremy-bamber-files-exclusive-audio-191151 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/the-jeremy-bamber-files-exclusive-audio-191151)
Ominous news re. accidents, death often comes in the middle of the night, and any sensible person's reaction would be to get over there as quick as possible without dawdling. He knew there was a call box near to Pages Lane should one be required when he arrived, or he could even have wakened the Foakes up to use theirs if necessary.
-
Adam as JB lost contact with NB obviously this threw a different light on things. Had NB been able to continue the conversation then JB would have followed through on NB's instructions. I think the reason JB called the local police as opposed to 999 was an attempt to keep it as low-key as possible.
I think it unlikely NB called EP but I haven't looked into this enough to say one way or the other. I guess if JB is innocent he clutches at any little thing that he feels might prove this.
Wouldn't call Chelmsford local. But then again Jeremy apparently called Witham, who mysteriously didn't answer.
Chelmsford then called Witham, and guess what ?
-
Wouldn't call Chelmsford local. But then again Jeremy apparently called Witham, who mysteriously didn't answer.
Chelmsford then called Witham, and guess what ?
They were on their tea-break or having a pee 8(0(*
-
Ominous news re. accidents, death often comes in the middle of the night, and any sensible person's reaction would be to get over there as quick as possible without dawdling. He knew there was a call box near to Pages Lane should one be required when he arrived, or he could even have wakened the Foakes up to use theirs if necessary.
But it wasn't an accident or death was it; it was a person with a history of serious mental illness supposedly in possession of a loaded firearm.
-
JB initially said that he received a call from his father at 03:10 and that he immediately called the police (after looking up the number which took 10 mins). Since the (so called) finding of Jeremy's phone log, the claims are now that he called police at 03:36 (to coincide with the time on the log). Why and how could there be such a discrepancy? Memory doesn't get better with time so early recollections about timings surely carry more weight. Also any 'new' evidence would have to fit the original tale, rather than create a new one to include it?
Unfortunately for Jeremy he forgot to factor in the call he made to Julie at 3am. He couldn't have told Julie about a call from his father which he had not yet received. 8(0(*
So assuming his father phoned him before 3am, it then took him 35 minutes to be bothered to phone the police. No matter which way you look at it, his version just doesn't add up!
-
Unfortunately for Jeremy he forgot to factor in the call he made to Julie at 3am. He couldn't have told Julie about a call from his father which he had not yet received. 8(0(*
So assuming his father phoned him before 3am, it then took him 35 minutes to be bothered to phone the police. No matter which way you look at it, his version just doesn't add up!
This is one of the reasons I changed my mind, the times don't add up and you can't shift and change them to suit a new story. Of course people can forget things over time, but Jeremy initially gave 03:10 as the time his father called, now the OS are trying to suggest he called police at 03:36 so what was he doing for almost 26 minutes? &%+((£
-
You have been able to argue, quite forcibly I might add for some 2 years, that the phone calls were made as JB claimed. Now you are able to argue the exact opposite. How are you able to do this? Imo because they are highly subjective with absolutely no reliable evidence to prove whether they were made as JB claimed or not.
Well actually, the reason I don't believe the call occurred is because until recently, I thought (as did many others) that the (so called) missing phone log, was the log with Nevill's details. However, after scrutinising the OS, I realised that it was actually that log that was made available to the jury and the one with Jeremy's details, (read out by West in court), was supposed to be the newly discovered gem. So in actuality, there never were any missing logs or logs held back from the defense/jury. Both logs formed part of the evidence!
Then I thought about the times given by Jeremy in the initial stages of the investigation (03:10 - call from his father). However, the OS is now stating that Jeremy called police at 03:36 but only since the (so called) newly 'discovered' log. In order to fit with the notion that Nevill called the police, they have to move the time of Jeremy's call to police; which leaves them with 26 minutes to account for. There is only one truth and if Jeremy called the police at 03:36, why didn't he mention this 29 years ago and explain what he was doing for the 26 minutes in between?
-
Well actually, the reason I don't believe the call occurred is because until recently, I thought (as did many others) that the (so called) missing phone log, was the log with Nevill's details. However, after scrutinising the OS, I realised that it was actually that log that was made available to the jury and the one with Jeremy's details, (read out by West in court), was supposed to be the newly discovered gem. So in actuality, there never were any missing logs or logs held back from the defense/jury. Both logs formed part of the evidence!
Then I thought about the times given by Jeremy in the initial stages of the investigation (03:10 - call from his father). However, the OS is now stating that Jeremy called police at 03:36 but only since the (so called) newly 'discovered' log. In order to fit with the notion that Nevill called the police, they have to move the time of Jeremy's call to police; which leaves them with 26 minutes to account for. There is only one truth and if Jeremy called the police at 03:36, why didn't he mention this 29 years ago and explain what he was doing for the 26 minutes in between?
Are you able to include documentary evidence to support your assertions above please? Without it the post lacks credibility and is difficult for me to follow.
You have recently made several assertions as follows:
- West claimed JB said NB sounded terrified during the hotly disputed phone call.
- JB claimed NB sounded injured when JB received the hotly disputed phone call.
- JB was tied to WHF/farming in order to inherit as per NB's and June's wills and clauses within
I have previously asked you to post evidence to support your assertions but to date nothing.
Wherever possible I take the time and effort to support my assertions with documentary evidence or other such evidence eg photos, video clips etc otherwise, as I said, the posts lack credibility. It also aids further debate as the supporting evidence may be open to interpretation etc. I think where possible we should attempt to up our game and weed out the dross ?>)()<
-
Are you able to include documentary evidence to support your assertions above please? Without it the post lacks credibility and is difficult for me to follow.
You have recently made several assertions as follows:
- West claimed JB said NB sounded terrified during the hotly disputed phone call.
- JB claimed NB sounded injured when JB received the hotly disputed phone call.
- JB was tied to WHF/farming in order to inherit as per NB's and June's wills and clauses within
I have previously asked you to post evidence to support your assertions but to date nothing.
Wherever possible I take the time and effort to support my assertions with documentary evidence or other such evidence eg photos, video clips etc otherwise, as I said, the posts lack credibility. It also aids further debate as the supporting evidence may be open to interpretation etc. I think where possible we should attempt to up our game and weed out the dross ?>)()<
The last post I made has nothing to do with NB being injured or Jeremy stating his father sounded terrified. The evidence for my 'assertions' are documented on the OS. You already have JB's initial statement where he claims he received a call from NB about 03:10, if you read the OS about the phone logs, you will see that the (so called) missing log isn't the one written as though NB had called, it's the one with Jeremy's details. The claim is that Jeremy called police at 03:36 to coincide with the log written by West.
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/nevill-s-call-to-police
You must have seen this discussion on the blue forum, it's been going on for ages! If Jeremy didn't call the police until 03:36, what was he doing for 26 minutes? It's not an assertion, it's what's being claimed!!
I think where ever possible we should quit being snide and stop trying to score points. The reference to Jeremy claiming his father sounded terrified etc. is pretty basic stuff BUT when I have time to seek out the statements I will do, until then you'll just have to exercise a little patience.
-
Well actually, the reason I don't believe the call occurred is because until recently, I thought (as did many others) that the (so called) missing phone log, was the log with Nevill's details. However, after scrutinising the OS, I realised that it was actually that log that was made available to the jury and the one with Jeremy's details, (read out by West in court), was supposed to be the newly discovered gem. So in actuality, there never were any missing logs or logs held back from the defense/jury. Both logs formed part of the evidence!
Then I thought about the times given by Jeremy in the initial stages of the investigation (03:10 - call from his father). However, the OS is now stating that Jeremy called police at 03:36 but only since the (so called) newly 'discovered' log. In order to fit with the notion that Nevill called the police, they have to move the time of Jeremy's call to police; which leaves them with 26 minutes to account for. There is only one truth and if Jeremy called the police at 03:36, why didn't he mention this 29 years ago and explain what he was doing for the 26 minutes in between?
I have paid very little attention to the times of the phone calls. The reason for this is that imo there's not one single reliable piece of data on which to base any of the others. It is, again imo, a complete travesty of justice that any of this was allowed to go before the court.
I have extracted an excerpt from the CoA doc:
26. PC West recorded the time of the appellant's call as 3.36 a.m. At trial it was accepted that the officer had misread a digital clock. The officer's contact with Mr Bonnett was recorded as being at 3.26 a.m. and it seems clear that the appellant's call must have been at 3.26 a.m. or very shortly before.
If it was accepted at trial that PC West misread the clock how can we be sure that Mr Bonnett's recording was correct? And what is the definition of "very shortly before"?
I have paid even less attention to the 'official site' as it seems clear to me that much of the information is inaccurate eg the blood evidence as pointed out by Mark Webster:
http://www.forensic-science.co.uk/bamber.html
I don't wish to appear overly critical of the 'official site' but imo it lacks any credibility whatsoever. The 'official site' need to work with professionals to make the site credible and authentic. Otherwise I don't really see the difference between posts on Blue made by a bunch of lay people and the 'official site' &%+((£
-
The last post I made has nothing to do with NB being injured or Jeremy stating his father sounded terrified. The evidence for my 'assertions' are documented on the OS. You already have JB's initial statement where he claims he received a call from NB about 03:10, if you read the OS about the phone logs, you will see that the (so called) missing log isn't the one written as though NB had called, it's the one with Jeremy's details. The claim is that Jeremy called police at 03:36 to coincide with the log written by West.
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/nevill-s-call-to-police
You must have seen this discussion on the blue forum, it's been going on for ages! If Jeremy didn't call the police until 03:36, what was he doing for 26 minutes? It's not an assertion, it's what's being claimed!!
I think where ever possible we should quit being snide and stop trying to score points. The reference to Jeremy claiming his father sounded terrified etc. is pretty basic stuff BUT when I have time to seek out the statements I will do, until then you'll just have to exercise a little patience.
I have posted on this thread AE's statement where she states JB claimed NB called at 3.00am. If this is correct what was JB doing for 36 minutes? &%+((£ Is this the reason JB only had a bacon sarnie ie he cooked himself a full English before calling the police &%+((£
Joanne Woad claimed he called JM at 2.00am:
309. Joanne Woad first made a statement on 16 September. In that statement she said that she thought the time was about 2 a.m. On 3 October, she made a further statement in which she explained why she had said about 2 a.m. She said:
"In my original statement I stated that this call was at 2 a.m. To be more precise I can add that when I awoke I remember looking at my digital radio/alarm clock at the foot of my bed and reading the hour figure as "2". I do not remember noting the minute reading and therefore the time could have been anywhere between 2 a.m. and 2.59 a.m."
My brain is hurting very, very much 8)><(
I'm going to see a hairy man on a sparsely populated island to see if he can help with my enquiries @)(++(*
-
I have posted on this thread AE's statement where she states JB claimed NB called at 3.00am. If this is correct what was JB doing for 36 minutes? &%+((£ Is this the reason JB only had a bacon sarnie ie he cooked himself a full English before calling the police &%+((£
Joanne Woad claimed he called JM at 2.00am:
309. Joanne Woad first made a statement on 16 September. In that statement she said that she thought the time was about 2 a.m. On 3 October, she made a further statement in which she explained why she had said about 2 a.m. She said:
"In my original statement I stated that this call was at 2 a.m. To be more precise I can add that when I awoke I remember looking at my digital radio/alarm clock at the foot of my bed and reading the hour figure as "2". I do not remember noting the minute reading and therefore the time could have been anywhere between 2 a.m. and 2.59 a.m."
My brain is hurting very, very much 8)><(
I'm going to see a hairy man on a sparsely populated island to see if he can help with my enquiries @)(++(*
Bon Voyage!
-
The claim is that he called the police at 03:36 to correspond with the log written by West.
-
You're correct.
Is he still saying he got Neville's call at 3.10am ? What was he doing for 26 minutes ?
-
You're correct.
Is he still saying he got Neville's call at 3.10am ? What was he doing for 26 minutes ?
Ann Eaton's WS states he received NB's call at 3.00am. 36 mins would give him enough time for a full English before calling the police? Hence he only had a bacon sarnie when he returned to Goldhanger with EP?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=2189
-
Ann Eaton's WS states he received NB's call at 3.00am. 36 mins would give him enough time for a full English before calling the police? Hence he only had a bacon sarnie when he returned to Goldhanger with EP?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=2189
So he 'immediately' called the police after a full English.
What do you think happened after the phone call went dead ?
-
So he 'immediately' called the police after a full English.
What do you think happened after the phone call went dead ?
How do we know he called EP immediately? You appear to believe JB on this occasion? I reckon he would feel pretty peckish after cycling to WHF and back in a wetsuit. Needs must. Psychopaths want instant gratification. 8(0(*
NB run upstairs. Perhaps June was sitting up in bed and he heard her scream as SC entered? It would be useful to understand the order of wounds to June and her position in bed when she received the first shots. We might then be able to determine whether or not she was awake? Either way I think some noise from the main bedroom caused NB to leave the phone on the worktop and run upstairs.
-
How do we know he called EP immediately? You appear to believe JB on this occasion? I reckon he would feel pretty peckish after cycling to WHF and back in a wetsuit. Needs must. Psychopaths want instant gratification. 8(0(*
NB run upstairs. Perhaps June was sitting up in bed and he heard her scream as SC entered? It would be useful to understand the order of wounds to June and her position in bed when she received the first shots. We might then be able to determine whether or not she was awake? Either way I think some noise from the main bedroom caused NB to leave the phone on the worktop and run upstairs.
His WS says he 'immediately' called the police after getting Neville's call.
Professor MacDonnell, who Jeremy hired after conviction said June was shot with her head on the pillow. So undoubtedly asleep, along with the twins.
-
I don't believe Jeremy made breakfast when returning to his cottage at 3am. Which was why several hours later at breakfast time he told the police he was 'starving'.
His 3am return to his cottage, it was time to clean up, get smartly dressed in several layers of clothes for those nice police men & get his one 10p. Then phone Julie to tell her 'everything is going well' before phoning Chelmsford police station.
-
His WS says he 'immediately' called the police after getting Neville's call.
Professor MacDonnell, who Jeremy hired after conviction said June was shot with her head on the pillow. So undoubtedly asleep, along with the twins.
Yes I know that his WS says 'immediately' but in later WS's he makes it clear he had no involvement with the shooting of his family yet you don't believe him? So why believe he immediately called EP and didn't cook a full English?
I think Dr V states at some point June appeared to be in an upright position but I guess this could mean when she left her bed? I will have to read it again. According to RB's WS June was a light sleeper.
-
I don't believe Jeremy made breakfast when returning to his cottage at 3am. Which was why several hours later at breakfast time he told the police he was 'starving'.
His 3am return to his cottage, it was time to clean up, get smartly dressed in several layers of clothes for those nice police men & get his one 10p. Then phone Julie to tell her 'everything is going well' before phoning Chelmsford police station.
Yes but it was several hours later he would be hungry again and he only had a bacon sarnie a sort of brunch.
Did I read he was given the 10p? Or like a girl guide he was always prepared? 8(0(*
-
How do we know he called EP immediately? You appear to believe JB on this occasion? I reckon he would feel pretty peckish after cycling to WHF and back in a wetsuit. Needs must. Psychopaths want instant gratification. 8(0(*
NB run upstairs. Perhaps June was sitting up in bed and he heard her scream as SC entered? It would be useful to understand the order of wounds to June and her position in bed when she received the first shots. We might then be able to determine whether or not she was awake? Either way I think some noise from the main bedroom caused NB to leave the phone on the worktop and run upstairs.
According to what the OS would have us believe, it took 26 minutes to call the police. So many different versions of one event but only one truth 8(0(*
-
Maldon or Tiptree police stations are both closer. Wonder why he called Witham police station first?
-
Maldon or Tiptree police stations are both closer. Wonder why he called Witham police station first?
It may have been because Witham is a much larger police station than the other two.
-
Maldon or Tiptree police stations are both closer. Wonder why he called Witham police station first?
Hello simong nice to see you.
I wonder if it had anything to do with NB being a magistrate on the Witham bench and I assume being familiar with officers from that station? Perhaps JB felt that if anything needed 'smoothing over' it could be done more easily with officers from Witham?
-
According to what the OS would have us believe, it took 26 minutes to call the police. So many different versions of one event but only one truth 8(0(*
Indeedy, one truth 8(0(*
-
Maldon or Tiptree police stations are both closer. Wonder why he called Witham police station first?
I didn't know that.
It does seem that Jeremy was trying to delay entry for as long as possible. I suppose the longer he can prove he's not at WHF, the more he distances himself from what happened inside.
His plan worked, the raid team entering WHF hours later.
The pathologist testified at court that it was impossible to determine the time of deaths.
-
According to what the OS would have us believe, it took 26 minutes to call the police. So many different versions of one event but only one truth 8(0(*
A poster on Blue who engages with Jeremy said he manages the OS. Wonder if he really has got a loyal band of followers that contribute towards the OS.
-
I am happy to bet my house against a pot noodle Neville made no phone calls that night .... he was awoken by being shot by his own son!
(The insult is Bamber's story; not by Adam for bringing it up for debate!)
-
Bang on, Tim.
Bamber says he left a loaded gun on the settle, Sheila just happens to have a psychotic episode on the very same night...bullshit.
Would Nevile allow a loaded gun to be left laying around with two 6 yr old boys in the house?....nope!
Neville didnt make any phone call Bamber.... Fact!
We only have the word of a convicted killer as to what went on in WHF that night, and i dont believe a word of it.
God.. This case bores me to death at times.
Its all been discussed, over and over and over again YAWN
-
Maldon or Tiptree police stations are both closer. Wonder why he called Witham police station first?
He says he called Witham first. Although there is no evidence of this, as no one answered. Chelmsford were then called, who were miles away.
-
I didn't know that.
It does seem that Jeremy was trying to delay entry for as long as possible. I suppose the longer he can prove he's not at WHF, the more he distances himself from what happened inside.
His plan worked, the raid team entering WHF hours later.
The pathologist testified at court that it was impossible to determine the time of deaths.
Eh? When I suggested JB had a Full English before calling police you were ADAMant that he called EP "immediately" and rejected my idea out of hand. Now you seem to be saying he deployed delaying tactics to delay entry?
Why was the pathologist, Dr V, not called to soc with victims in situ? Dr V later criticised EP on a number of points.
Was it possible for Dr Craig, who attended the soc with victims in situ, to determine time of death?
-
He says he called Witham first. Although there is no evidence of this, as no one answered. Chelmsford were then called, who were miles away.
Why don't you write and ask him?
Caroline has engaged in communication with JB and he appears to have been quite amenable to answering her queries.
-
A poster on Blue who engages with Jeremy said he manages the OS. Wonder if he really has got a loyal band of followers that contribute towards the OS.
I've no idea who any of these people are. Or whether they post on Blue. From what I've read on Blue it appears JB does the following?
I wonder who the OS is aimed at and how much traffic it attracts? I think our hobby is a little esoteric Adam. If you did a survey across a representative sample of the great British public I reckon it would show a very low awareness of JB let alone his case.
-
Bang on, Tim.
Bamber says he left a loaded gun on the settle, Sheila just happens to have a psychotic episode on the very same night...bullshit.
Would Nevile allow a loaded gun to be left laying around with two 6 yr old boys in the house?....nope!
Neville didnt make any phone call Bamber.... Fact!
We only have the word of a convicted killer as to what went on in WHF that night, and i dont believe a word of it.
God.. This case bores me to death at times.
Its all been discussed, over and over and over again YAWN
As far as I can see JB has never claimed he left a loaded gun out? He claims he removed the round from the breach and put it in the magazine. He then left the magazine on the settle and the unloaded rifle was left leaning up against a wall (both in the hall). Even if one of the adults didn't return the rifle and magazine to the gun cupboard it would need someone to attach the magazine to the rifle in order to fire a shot.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5632.msg200222#msg200222
If JB was attempting to 'set the scene' surely he would make a big play on SC's frame of mind. As far as I can see he doesn't. His initial comments from his early WS's:
"No one appeared distressed and everyone appeared happy".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5631.0;attach=4566
"Whilst I was there Sheila did not say anything, make any objections or agreements. She just appeared vacant".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5632.0;attach=4570
-
Maldon or Tiptree police stations are both closer. Wonder why he called Witham police station first?
Time/Miles as per AA route planner to Tolleshunt D'Arcy:
Minutes Miles
Chelmsford 0.39 21.1
Maldon 0.20 7.2
Tiptree 0.10 3.8
Witham 0.27 11.1
So it appears he made contact with the stations furthest away! Suspicious indeed &%+((£ I assume all stations are linked up communication wise and whichever station was contacted the nearest patrol car would attend?
-
Time/Miles as per AA route planner to Tolleshunt D'Arcy:
Minutes Miles
Chelmsford 0.39 21.1
Maldon 0.20 7.2
Tiptree 0.10 3.8
Witham 0.27 11.1
So it appears he made contact with the stations furthest away! Suspicious indeed &%+((£ I assume all stations are linked up communication wise and whichever station was contacted the nearest patrol car would attend?
Thank you.
-
@ April. I do understand your point but he got no answer from his phonecall to Witham either. I would have been less suspicious if he had called Tiptree first. I doubt he would have got an answer from there either as its a tiny satellite station. I think most people upon receiving a call in the middle of the night from their father, saying their sister, who Jeremy 'claimed was a nutter' was going crazy with a gun would ring 999. Calling Witham and Chelmsford seems very odd behaviour to me.
@Andrea, I would assume that the use of guns on the farm would be a regular occurrence and Nevill probably would have assumed the gun had been made safe and stored correctly. JB Leaving the gun exposed and loaded seems highly irresponsible at best.
@Adam, I don't really understand pathology but am very confused as to why no time of death could be established. Do you have any ideas?
@Holly, Thanks for posting up the the mileage and driving times. It is great to see you still here and i hope that you are still be treated with the respect your opinions deserve.
-
Thank you.
You're welcome.
I have no idea how these things work but would it make any difference which station was called or 999? As far as I'm aware police cars are out and about on calls, going to or coming from incidences and general patrols? I would have thought the communication was such that the location of a patrol car can be identified by some central communication centre for the whole of Essex and the nearest car would be sent regardless of which station it was attached to? It would seem a waste of resource in terms of manpower/hours and money to send a car from say Chelmsford when one could be sent from say Witham?
In terms of policing WHF will fall under a polcing area and surely a patrol car would be sent from that area unless a patrol car from a neighbouring area happened to be in the vicinity regardless of which station is called. Sometimes farms/farmhouses have strange boundaries. I have farmer friends where the farm in terms of postal district and dialling code falls under one county but in terms of policing it falls under a different county.
I think the reason JB didn't call 999 was he wanted to keep it low-key as he read it as a manageable domestic and was aware of NB's low regard for the local police, position as a magistrate and preference for family privacy particularly with regard to SC's mental illness. JB probably thought if he called a local station they would send a car that would cruise past. Knock on the door and confirm everything was ok. 999 would be lights flashing, sirens and a loud hailer. He may have thought 999 had the potential to make SC worse. On one occasion SC thought she was being followed by the CIA. If you read JB's WS's he refers to NB fielding late night calls from SC where she claimed to be the Virgin Mary, Joan of Arc and leader of the CND. JB was aware that SC became out of sorts late at night/early morning and NB managed these occasions. The fact that NB supposedly phoned JB saying SC is going crazy and has one of my guns would have been a level up but not that unusual based on her history. Also she had no previous history of serious violence.
I've just checked the postcode for WHF and it appears it falls under Maldon police station but that closes at 6pm. I'm sure it has all changed over the last 30 years.
Station for WHF postcode CM9 8AA
http://www.essex.police.uk/my_neighbourhood/maldon_district/great_totham/great_totham-3.aspx
Essex stations and opening times
https://www.essex.police.uk/contact_us/my_police_station.aspx
-
@ April. I do understand your point but he got no answer from his phonecall to Witham either. I would have been less suspicious if he had called Tiptree first. I doubt he would have got an answer from there either as its a tiny satellite station. I think most people upon receiving a call in the middle of the night from their father, saying their sister, who Jeremy 'claimed was a nutter' was going crazy with a gun would ring 999. Calling Witham and Chelmsford seems very odd behaviour to me.
@Andrea, I would assume that the use of guns on the farm would be a regular occurrence and Nevill probably would have assumed the gun had been made safe and stored correctly. JB Leaving the gun exposed and loaded seems highly irresponsible at best.
@Adam, I don't really understand pathology but am very confused as to why no time of death could be established. Do you have any ideas?
@Holly, Thanks for posting up the the mileage and driving times. It is great to see you still here and i hope that you are still be treated with the respect your opinions deserve.
I agree, it is odd.
-
@ April. I do understand your point but he got no answer from his phonecall to Witham either. I would have been less suspicious if he had called Tiptree first. I doubt he would have got an answer from there either as its a tiny satellite station. I think most people upon receiving a call in the middle of the night from their father, saying their sister, who Jeremy 'claimed was a nutter' was going crazy with a gun would ring 999. Calling Witham and Chelmsford seems very odd behaviour to me.
@Andrea, I would assume that the use of guns on the farm would be a regular occurrence and Nevill probably would have assumed the gun had been made safe and stored correctly. JB Leaving the gun exposed and loaded seems highly irresponsible at best.
@Adam, I don't really understand pathology but am very confused as to why no time of death could be established. Do you have any ideas?
@Holly, Thanks for posting up the the mileage and driving times. It is great to see you still here and i hope that you are still be treated with the respect your opinions deserve.
Hello Simong. Thank you for your kind words. I think posters on the JB board appreciate a token pro JB poster 8)--))
In answer to your Q re why Witham it appears from PC West's trial testimony that this was the station that covered WHF. The car sent was attached to Witham. I guess this is the reason JB called Witham initially? JB was unable to get through on the public number but the control room at Chelmsford had a means of contacting Witham. Maybe I am missing the point but all this seems pretty straightforward to me. Mind you I have had a few drinks hic *&*%£ Even if JB called 999 I still think it would effectively have been the same process and car. He just wasted a few minutes looking up a number as opposed to dialling 999.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=170.0;attach=317
-
Hello Simong. Thank you for your kind words. I think posters on the JB board appreciate a token pro JB poster 8)--))
In answer to your Q re why Witham it appears from PC West's trial testimony that this was the station that covered WHF. The car sent was attached to Witham. I guess this is the reason JB called Witham initially? JB was unable to get through on the public number but the control room at Chelmsford had a means of contacting Witham. Maybe I am missing the point but all this seems pretty straightforward to me. Mind you I have had a few drinks hic *&*%£ Even if JB called 999 I still think it would effectively have been the same process and car. He just wasted a few minutes looking up a number as opposed to dialling 999.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=170.0;attach=317
How would Jeremy know that unless he'd done his homework?
-
@ April. I do understand your point but he got no answer from his phonecall to Witham either. I would have been less suspicious if he had called Tiptree first. I doubt he would have got an answer from there either as its a tiny satellite station. I think most people upon receiving a call in the middle of the night from their father, saying their sister, who Jeremy 'claimed was a nutter' was going crazy with a gun would ring 999. Calling Witham and Chelmsford seems very odd behaviour to me.
@Andrea, I would assume that the use of guns on the farm would be a regular occurrence and Nevill probably would have assumed the gun had been made safe and stored correctly. JB Leaving the gun exposed and loaded seems highly irresponsible at best.
@Adam, I don't really understand pathology but am very confused as to why no time of death could be established. Do you have any ideas?
@Holly, Thanks for posting up the the mileage and driving times. It is great to see you still here and i hope that you are still be treated with the respect your opinions deserve.
Simong, I don't know how acquainted with the area you are, but Tiptree is a village -albeit the largest in the country, I believe- and Maldon wouldn't have had a ready supply of cars waiting to be called out. Without the possibility of calling up any cars in the area, Witham and Chelmsford usually had cars at their disposal. This MAY be a reason why he didn't call Tollesbury, which, I believe, at the time WOULD have been the nearest police station to WHF - which I think is marginally closer to Tollesbury than D'Arcy but in 1985 may not have had more by way of police vehicle that than a suped up hairdryer or a push bike. Chelmsford, of course, is police HQ for the area.
-
How would Jeremy know that unless he'd done his homework?
In an earlier post you agreed with Simong that JB phoning Witham was odd. Had you done your homework you would have read PC West's trial testimony and realised that Witham was the station that covered WHF. How can this be regarded as "odd"?
If you read AE's WS's she makes reference to the police on a couple of occasions where they were discussed at OCP meetings in connection with children messing around on bales of hay and security at OCP. Witham police are made ref to. JB was present at these meetings. NB was a magistrate on the Witham bench. He also had recent problems by way of a threat which the police were involved in. Farmers are usually familiar with their local station as they are more vulnerable to crime in terms of isolated location and having more to nick both internally and externally by way of family heirlooms, guns and farm equip. Against this backdrop it would seem inconceivable that JB was unaware that Witham covered WHF.
-
Did NB ask JB to "Please come over..."?
JB's initial WS states NB called and said:
"Sheila's gone crazy, she has got the gun". Nothing more; nothing less.
In his trial testimony PC West quotes sentences which are similar but have subtle differences as follows:
"Please come over at once". Your sister has gone crazy".
"Please come over. Your sister has gone crazy".
"Please come over. Your sister has gone crazy and has the gun".
Did NB use these words? Did JB relay these words to the police? Or are they words that PC West used by writing them down but in fact were never said by NB or JB?
I have always thought the word "Please" seems odd in such a situation.
I know from management trng I've done in the past it is notoriously difficult to get people to use the exact words of others and record them accurately. PC West had no reason not to use the exact words used but a whole range of things could have prevented him from doing so eg tiredness, distracted, poor listening skills, memory and recall especially if he didn't write the message down straight away.
PC West's trial testimony appears to me to be full of inconsistencies and with the rather WET Mr Rivlin cross examining him it goes nowhere fast!!!
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=170.msg1779#msg1779
-
Did NB ask JB to "Please come over..."?
JB's initial WS states NB called and said:
"Sheila's gone crazy, she has got the gun". Nothing more; nothing less.
In his trial testimony PC West quotes sentences which are similar but have subtle differences as follows:
"Please come over at once". Your sister has gone crazy".
"Please come over. Your sister has gone crazy".
"Please come over. Your sister has gone crazy and has the gun".
Did NB use these words? Did JB relay these words to the police? Or are they words that PC West used by writing them down but in fact were never said by NB or JB?
I have always thought the word "Please" seems odd in such a situation.
I know from management trng I've done in the past it is notoriously difficult to get people to use the exact words of others and record them accurately. PC West had no reason not to use the exact words used but a whole range of things could have prevented him from doing so eg tiredness, distracted, poor listening skills, memory and recall especially if he didn't write the message down straight away.
PC West's trial testimony appears to me to be full of inconsistencies and with the rather WET Mr Rivlin cross examining him it goes nowhere fast!!!
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=170.msg1779#msg1779
If West wrote it down, Jeremy must have said it - there was no reason for him to just add the sentence.
-
In an earlier post you agreed with Simong that JB phoning Witham was odd. Had you done your homework you would have read PC West's trial testimony and realised that Witham was the station that covered WHF. How can this be regarded as "odd"?
If you read AE's WS's she makes reference to the police on a couple of occasions where they were discussed at OCP meetings in connection with children messing around on bales of hay and security at OCP. Witham police are made ref to. JB was present at these meetings. NB was a magistrate on the Witham bench. He also had recent problems by way of a threat which the police were involved in. Farmers are usually familiar with their local station as they are more vulnerable to crime in terms of isolated location and having more to nick both internally and externally by way of family heirlooms, guns and farm equip. Against this backdrop it would seem inconceivable that JB was unaware that Witham covered WHF.
I have read West's trail testimony, many times - what I think is 'odd; is that he didn't call 999
-
I have read West's trail testimony, many times - what I think is 'odd; is that he didn't call 999
If you have read West's trial testimony many times I am surprised you thought it 'odd' that JB phoned Witham since it is clear from his testimony that Witham covers WHF. And I am even more surprised that you haven't asked JB. Or perhaps you have but unlike the wallet don't feel you can divulge.
I skim read West's trial testimony when I joined Blue and read if fully for the first time this w.e. To my mind the phone calls are too subjective and nothing can be proved either way. Posters can speculate until the cows come home but as far as I can see it doesn't advance anything. If you compare it by today's standards of irrefutable audit trails showing incoming and outgoing calls timed to the second and all calls to police stations recorded it's just a nonsense. Especially given that all those involved in providing times/WS's were not asked to remember in any serious detail until over a month later!
The definition of 'odd' is different to what is usual or expected; strange 8(0(* What are you using as your precedent when you say you think it is 'odd' that JB didn't call 999?
-
If you have read West's trial testimony many times I am surprised you thought it 'odd' that JB phoned Witham since it is clear from his testimony that Witham covers WHF. And I am even more surprised that you haven't asked JB. Or perhaps you have but unlike the wallet don't feel you can divulge.
I skim read West's trial testimony when I joined Blue and read if fully for the first time this w.e. To my mind the phone calls are too subjective and nothing can be proved either way. Posters can speculate until the cows come home but as far as I can see it doesn't advance anything. If you compare it by today's standards of irrefutable audit trails showing incoming and outgoing calls timed to the second and all calls to police stations recorded it's just a nonsense. Especially given that all those involved in providing times/WS's were not asked to remember in any serious detail until over a month later!
The definition of 'odd' is different to what is usual or expected; strange 8(0(* What are you using as your precedent when you say you think it is 'odd' that JB didn't call 999?
I'm NOT talking about calling Witham, I said it's odd that he didn't dial 999! The fact that 'crazy' and 'gun' was mentioned in a call supposedly received at 3am - doesn't need a 'precedent' it's common sense. You asked for a source that mentions JB stating his father sounded 'frightened' both West and Myall mention this - here is Myall's statement (page 2).
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
I'm NOT talking about calling Witham, I said it's odd that he didn't dial 999! The fact that 'crazy' and 'gun' was mentioned in a call supposedly received at 3am - doesn't need a 'precedent' it's common sense. You asked for a source that mentions JB stating his father sounded 'frightened' both West and Myall mention this - here is Myall's statement (page 2).
You also said you thought it "odd" that JB called Witham which I am surprised about given that you claim to have read West's WS many times and hence would understand that Witham covered WHF. If JB is guilty what would be the advantage to him of calling Witham and eventually Chelmsford over 999? As far as I can see nothing? In any event as far as I am aware when a member of the public calls the police about an incident regardless of whether they call the local station or 999 the police determine the level of seriousness and appropriate response based on effectively a Q&A session with the caller. This can be evidenced by West's WS. You must have seen crime/emergency services dramas and witnessed similar?
JB claims:
- He was woken by his phone ringing at approx 3.10am
- It was NB and he said "Sheilas gone crazy she has got the gun" (nothing about coming over)
- The line went dead
- JB called back twice using the redial button on his phone. Both occasions he got the engaged tone (seems to contradict with tel eng testimony at trial)
- He then called Witham no response
- He then called Chelmsford and spoke with West who got in touch with Witham and a car was sent
Other info that may have had a bearing on JB's decision making:
- SC had a long history of mental illness
- SC had no previous history of serious violence and aggression
- NB managed SC's moods/condition with some success eg when she phoned him late at night claiming to be Virgin Mary, Joan of Arc, leader of CND and when he was called to her London flat by Freddie.
- Did NB want JB to go over and assist in recovering the gun from her?
- NB had a low opinion of the police
- NB liked to keep family matters within the immediate family
- NB was a local magistrate: privacy as above and familiar with local police
- Did NB want JB to call the police knowing it would be time consuming to give all the personal details and background. Meanwhile NB could try and calm/reason with SC
- What sort of navigation system did patrol cars have if any? If a map only perhaps WHF was difficult to find and NB thought JB could assist with directions
- If the police were called would it make the situation worse as with the electricity man? What could the police do if SC was being totally unreasonable in possession of a loaded firearm? Dont think taser guns were around then? In the end they might have had to shoot to maim?
The phone calls are subjective and based on the whims of human behaviour both in terms of NB and JB's response and how others interpret them. In the absence of digitally recorded call times and taped recordings its all hopelessly unreliable. I dont think anything can be read into the phone calls in isolation its all part of a bigger picture.
I think you will find JB uses the word "distressed" to describe NB and not "frightened" as claimed by West and Myalls.
The only thing that stands out for me is the fact that at trial the tel eng said if WHF was off the hook JB would not be able to call out at Goldhanger for 1 - 2 minutes. And yet he said he redialled NB immediately by hitting his redial button and got the engaged tone?
-
You also said you thought it "odd" that JB called Witham which I am surprised about given that you claim to have read West's WS many times and hence would understand that Witham covered WHF. If JB is guilty what would be the advantage to him of calling Witham and eventually Chelmsford over 999? As far as I can see nothing? In any event as far as I am aware when a member of the public calls the police about an incident regardless of whether they call the local station or 999 the police determine the level of seriousness and appropriate response based on effectively a Q&A session with the caller. This can be evidenced by West's WS. You must have seen crime/emergency services dramas and witnessed similar?
JB claims:
- He was woken by his phone ringing at approx 3.10am
- It was NB and he said "Sheilas gone crazy she has got the gun" (nothing about coming over)
- The line went dead
- JB called back twice using the redial button on his phone. Both occasions he got the engaged tone (seems to contradict with tel eng testimony at trial)
- He then called Witham no response
- He then called Chelmsford and spoke with West who got in touch with Witham and a car was sent
Other info that may have had a bearing on JB's decision making:
- SC had a long history of mental illness
- SC had no previous history of serious violence and aggression
- NB managed SC's moods/condition with some success eg when she phoned him late at night claiming to be Virgin Mary, Joan of Arc, leader of CND and when he was called to her London flat by Freddie.
- Did NB want JB to go over and assist in recovering the gun from her?
- NB had a low opinion of the police
- NB liked to keep family matters within the immediate family
- NB was a local magistrate: privacy as above and familiar with local police
- Did NB want JB to call the police knowing it would be time consuming to give all the personal details and background. Meanwhile NB could try and calm/reason with SC
- What sort of navigation system did patrol cars have if any? If a map only perhaps WHF was difficult to find and NB thought JB could assist with directions
- If the police were called would it make the situation worse as with the electricity man? What could the police do if SC was being totally unreasonable in possession of a loaded firearm? Dont think taser guns were around then? In the end they might have had to shoot to maim?
The phone calls are subjective and based on the whims of human behaviour both in terms of NB and JB's response and how others interpret them. In the absence of digitally recorded call times and taped recordings its all hopelessly unreliable. I dont think anything can be read into the phone calls in isolation its all part of a bigger picture.
I think you will find JB uses the word "distressed" to describe NB and not "frightened" as claimed by West and Myalls.
The only thing that stands out for me is the fact that at trial the tel eng said if WHF was off the hook JB would not be able to call out at Goldhanger for 1 - 2 minutes. And yet he said he redialled NB immediately by hitting his redial button and got the engaged tone?
Odd because he called a local cop shop and not 999!! @)(++(*. If you have an emergency would you WASTE precious time by b....ring about looking up the number of the local cop shop or just dial 999? It's not which station he called that's the issue, it's the fact that he 'said' it took around 10 mins to look up a number after a call in which his father sounded 'frightened' and he could have just called 999. That's the point. Whatever word you think he used probably depends on who you believe - West had no reason to lie.
The concern over the phone call is based on 'common sense'. However, people can argue that a call received in the early hours of the morning from someone frightened (or distressed) seeking help because his schizophrenic daughter had gone crazy and had a gun - just didn't warrant a 999 call and that a meander through the phone book for a local cop shop number is quite understandable. However, I think most people will think differently.
-
I have already said on many occasions that had I received a call from my dad in similar circumstances I would have been in the car and at the farm within minutes police or no police. Another thing, if Jerry's 'story' is true, why didn't he show the first police on the scene how to get into the house via the unsecured window?
Hmm... that story of his doesn't really add up to much does it? (http://images.zaazu.com/img/sad-animated-animation-boy-smiley-emoticon-000346-medium.gif)
-
I have already said on many occasions that had I received a call from my dad in similar circumstances I would have been in the car and at the farm within minutes police or no police. Another thing, if Jerry's 'story' is true, why didn't he show the first police on the scene how to get into the house via the unsecured window?
Hmm... that story of his doesn't really add up to much does it? (http://images.zaazu.com/img/sad-animated-animation-boy-smiley-emoticon-000346-medium.gif)
A phone call like that, at that hour would make a very uneasy mind, if you cared enough, you would want to know what was going on and I agree that you woud either head on over there, dial 999 or both. Perusing the phone book for 10 mins is just odd.
-
A phone call like that, at that hour would make a very uneasy mind, if you cared enough, you would want to know what was going on and I agree that you woud either head on over there, dial 999 or both. Perusing the phone book for 10 mins is just odd.
Clearly Jerry wanted the police to be there before he arrived. His behaviour outside was very odd, any normal son in such a situation would be banging on doors and windows and trying to attract attention. But then again, this wasn't a normal situation and Jerry knew it.
-
Clearly Jerry wanted the police to be there before he arrived. His behaviour outside was very odd, any normal son in such a situation would be banging on doors and windows and trying to attract attention. But then again, this wasn't a normal situation and Jerry knew it.
I have always argued that he didn't want the police to storm the house in case they realised the victims had been dead longer than Jeremy indicated - but perhaps he did want them to go in. If guilty, he knew how long they had been dead, if it had been within the last hour, it probably wouldn't have made much difference to how they treated the crime (4 murders and a suicide). As it happened, it worked out even more in his favour as time went on. I agree about the window and if it had been me, they would have had to restrain me from trying to get in.
-
I have always argued that he didn't want the police to storm the house in case they realised the victims had been dead longer than Jeremy indicated - but perhaps he did to go in. If guilty, he knew how long they had been dead, if it had been within the last hour, it probably wouldn't have made much difference to how they treated the crime (4 murders and a suicide). As it happened, it worked out even more in his favour as time went on. I agree about the window and if it had been me, they would have had to restrain me from trying to get in.
Absolutely, me too! By not doing any of the obvious things Jerry drew attention to himself and Stan Jones just wasn't having it. That's why he shadowed him to Goldhanger and was taking it all in.
-
Clearly Jerry wanted the police to be there before he arrived. His behaviour outside was very odd, any normal son in such a situation would be banging on doors and windows and trying to attract attention. But then again, this wasn't a normal situation and Jerry knew it.
He was extremely lucky that they didn't catch a car coming back from a shout in Tollesbury. Had that happened he wouldn't have seen it in his rear view mirror because it would have been coming from the opposite direction and would have been there is less than 5 minutes.
-
Clearly Jerry wanted the police to be there before he arrived. His behaviour outside was very odd, any normal son in such a situation would be banging on doors and windows and trying to attract attention. But then again, this wasn't a normal situation and Jerry knew it.
That's a good point. He would be banging on the doors, windows, shouting through the letter box. Anything to divert Sheila's attention from his family that she may be about to shoot. He would be encouraging the police to do the same.
He may have tried to get in the window he knew he could get in. And asked the police to follow him in through. Perhaps he wanted to keep the windows his special secret.
Instead he casually walked around WHF & then sat in a police car.
-
That's a good point. He would be banging on the doors, windows, shouting through the letter box. Anything to divert Sheila's attention from his family that she may be about to shoot. He would be encouraging the police to do the same.
He may have tried to get in the window he knew he could get in. And asked the police to follow him in through. Perhaps he wanted to keep the windows his special secret.
Instead he casually walked around WHF & then sat in a police car.
Clearly he didn't want the police to know he could get into the house by an unsecured window.
-
I am happy to bet my house against a pot noodle Neville made no phone calls that night .... he was awoken by being shot by his own son!
(The insult is Bamber's story; not by Adam for bringing it up for debate!)
Ridiculous modification John! Stop doing that!
-
Odd because he called a local cop shop and not 999!! @)(++(*. If you have an emergency would you WASTE precious time by b....ring about looking up the number of the local cop shop or just dial 999? It's not which station he called that's the issue, it's the fact that he 'said' it took around 10 mins to look up a number after a call in which his father sounded 'frightened' and he could have just called 999. That's the point. Whatever word you think he used probably depends on who you believe - West had no reason to lie.
The concern over the phone call is based on 'common sense'. However, people can argue that a call received in the early hours of the morning from someone frightened (or distressed) seeking help because his schizophrenic daughter had gone crazy and had a gun - just didn't warrant a 999 call and that a meander through the phone book for a local cop shop number is quite understandable. However, I think most people will think differently.
You and Adam said it was odd JB called Witham as opposed to other closer stations eg Tiptree. However it is clear Witham covers WHF hence JB called Witham. In any event it should be common sense that it doesn't matter which station is called Lands End, John o' Groats, 999 the communication is such that the nearest patrol car is sent regardless.
In JB's mind it was not necessarily an emergency which I can understand if you consider the background and NB's message.
I think when asked how long it took to look up the number he said 10 minutes at the outside. That doesn't mean to say it took 10 mins. Guys tend to over estimate the length of things 8(0(*
The exact words used are VERY IMPORTANT. They convey different meanings. I believe JB said NB sounded distressed - as you would expect if SC appeared how she did when Freddie Emani witnessed her banging her fists on the wall and according to him ranting and raving - FE said when NB walked through the door SC was a changed person so maybe NB hadn't witnessed her in the sort of state she was in and found it distressing. I've already said West had no reason to lie but I know from personal experience at work that people have difficulty in relaying oral communication word for word and the message often gets distorted in translation. It is clear from West's trial testimony that he got muddled at points. You will have heard of Chinese whispers!
I see nothing sinister in JB's actions/choices based on the complete background and individuals involved. The phone calls are entirely subjective and prove absolutely nothing.
I don't understand the advantage to JB in creating a delay? If he murdered his entire family, he then had to cycle back to Goldhanger in his wetsuit, get rid of any incriminating evidence, wash the bike down, wash and change he would surely want to speed things up as he couldn't be sure that the police wouldn't storm WHF and if times of death had been taken he could have been caught out! Surely he would want to speed everything up? Or perhaps I'm missing the point &%+((£
-
You and Adam said it was odd JB called Witham as opposed to other closer stations eg Tiptree. However it is clear Witham covers WHF hence JB called Witham. In any event it should be common sense that it doesn't matter which station is called Lands End, John o' Groats, 999 the communication is such that the nearest patrol car is sent regardless.
In JB's mind it was not necessarily an emergency which I can understand if you consider the background and NB's message.
I think when asked how long it took to look up the number he said 10 minutes at the outside. That doesn't mean to say it took 10 mins. Guys tend to over estimate the length of things 8(0(*
The exact words used are VERY IMPORTANT. They convey different meanings. I believe JB said NB sounded distressed - as you would expect if SC appeared how she did when Freddie Emani witnessed her banging her fists on the wall and according to him ranting and raving - FE said when NB walked through the door SC was a changed person so maybe NB hadn't witnessed her in the sort of state she was in and found it distressing. I've already said West had no reason to lie but I know from personal experience at work that people have difficulty in relaying oral communication word for word and the message often gets distorted in translation. It is clear from West's trial testimony that he got muddled at points. You will have heard of Chinese whispers!
I see nothing sinister in JB's actions/choices based on the complete background and individuals involved. The phone calls are entirely subjective and prove absolutely nothing.
I don't understand the advantage to JB in creating a delay? If he murdered his entire family, he then had to cycle back to Goldhanger in his wetsuit, get rid of any incriminating evidence, wash the bike down, wash and change he would surely want to speed things up as he couldn't be sure that the police wouldn't storm WHF and if times of death had been taken he could have been caught out! Surely he would want to speed everything up? Or perhaps I'm missing the point &%+((£
Where did I mention a wetsuit or a bicycle? &%+((£
It still stands that if you get a call at 3am (ish), someone is pretty desperate if they are asking for help and if it made no difference which station he called, it makes even MORE sense for him to have called 999. He possibly thought he needed to explain the delay between HIM calling his phone from WHF and making his way back home. At such a point he didn't know that the call couldn't be checked. There is no excuse for him NOT to have called 999 - it's just common sense.
-
Adam, Caroline and John
Re your posts above. Bews made the decision not to knock on the door or even go close to the building. Obviously Bews et al and JB were not as brave as you guys know you would have been in such a situation. You must be ex Marines or maybe SAS to present as such brave and noble men and women 8)--)) Quite unassuming too. Kudos to you all 8((()*/ 8@??)(
Bews @ 3.28 in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EDp_tqUysI
"I already had it in the back of my mind I was going to call out the firearms unit cause I wasn't going to knock on the front door and risk it being answered by a mad women with a gun.
I also didn't want to go close to the building because if you're seen then obviously you can become a target yourself".
-
Absolutely, me too! By not doing any of the obvious things Jerry drew attention to himself and Stan Jones just wasn't having it. That's why he shadowed him to Goldhanger and was taking it all in.
Based on AE's WS that's not strictly true John. DS Jones had his doubts days later:
"If you accused him and later found out you were wrong. Imagine how you would feel?"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3171.0;attach=3540
-
Where did I mention a wetsuit or a bicycle? &%+((£
It still stands that if you get a call at 3am (ish), someone is pretty desperate if they are asking for help and if it made no difference which station he called, it makes even MORE sense for him to have called 999. He possibly thought he needed to explain the delay between HIM calling his phone from WHF and making his way back home. At such a point he didn't know that the call couldn't be checked. There is no excuse for him NOT to have called 999 - it's just common sense.
We will have to agree to disagree.
Is that you in the shorts? Nice beaches in your neck of the woods ?{)(**
-
Adam, Caroline and John
Re your posts above. Bews made the decision not to knock on the door or even go close to the building. Obviously Bews et al and JB were not as brave as you guys know you would have been in such a situation. You must be ex Marines or maybe SAS to present as such brave and noble men and women 8)--)) Quite unassuming too. Kudos to you all 8((()*/ 8@??)(
Bews @ 3.28 in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EDp_tqUysI
"I already had it in the back of my mind I was going to call out the firearms unit cause I wasn't going to knock on the front door and risk it being answered by a mad women with a gun.
I also didn't want to go close to the building because if you're seen then obviously you can become a target yourself".
Obviously Jeremy's supporters will fire fight and justify any unusual behaviour.
At the time Neville had (only) asked Jeremy to 'come quickly'. Not walk around the outside and then sit in a car for several hours.
Thought the police would have to physically restrain him from banging on the door etc. Or he could have begged the police to get in through the loose window.
-
Obviously Jeremy's supporters will fire fight and justify any unusual behaviour.
At the time Neville had (only) asked Jeremy to 'come quickly'. Not walk around the outside and then sit in a car for several hours.
Thought the police would have to physically restrain him from banging on the door etc. Or he could have begged the police to get in through the loose window.
When the police get involved Adam they assume all responsibility and full control. It becomes a police operational matter.
Bews @ 3.48
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EDp_tqUysI
"So what I asked JB if he'd mind doing is come with me and Steve Myall one of the PC's on a tour of the perimeter in the farm yard to have a look and see what we could get from the house".
-
Obviously Jeremy's supporters will fire fight and justify any unusual behaviour.
At the time Neville had (only) asked Jeremy to 'come quickly'. Not walk around the outside and then sit in a car for several hours.
Thought the police would have to physically restrain him from banging on the door etc. Or he could have begged the police to get in through the loose window.
Based on JB's initial WS dated 7th Aug '85 he claims NB stated the following in the tel call:
"Sheila's gone crazy she has got a gun" (Nothing more nothing less)
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5631.0;attach=4566
Perhaps when you say "come quickly" you had something else in mind? &%+((£ If so are you able to provide a source?
-
Based on JB's initial WS dated 7th Aug '85 he claims NB stated the following in the tel call:
"Sheila's gone crazy she has got a gun" (Nothing more nothing less)
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5631.0;attach=4566
Perhaps when you say "come quickly" you had something else in mind? &%+((£ If so are you able to provide a source?
Seems strange that Neville didn't say anything else.
Perhaps 'Jeremy, it's dad, please come over quickly, Sheila's gone crazy and she's got the gun'.
Just saying seven words to a half asleep Jeremy - 'Sheila's gone crazy, she's got the gun' is very abrupt. Sheila had not gone crazy anyway, otherwise Neville would have time to phone anyone.
Wilkes's book says Jeremy told PC West that Neville had said 'please come over'.
-
We will have to agree to disagree.
Is that you in the shorts? Nice beaches in your neck of the woods ?{)(**
We certainly will 8((()*/
Ha, ha! Nice try, I'm only 5' 1" and 151lb - 8**8:/:
-
Adam, Caroline and John
Re your posts above. Bews made the decision not to knock on the door or even go close to the building. Obviously Bews et al and JB were not as brave as you guys know you would have been in such a situation. You must be ex Marines or maybe SAS to present as such brave and noble men and women 8)--)) Quite unassuming too. Kudos to you all 8((()*/ 8@??)(
Bews @ 3.28 in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EDp_tqUysI
"I already had it in the back of my mind I was going to call out the firearms unit cause I wasn't going to knock on the front door and risk it being answered by a mad women with a gun.
I also didn't want to go close to the building because if you're seen then obviously you can become a target yourself".
I would try to enter the house of a complete stranger - only my own family It wasn't Bews's family, he didn't know what he was dealing with. However, given that you think Jeremy didn't think it warranted a 999 call, he wouldn't have been too concerned, so why didn't he attempt to enter or even suggest that he should?
-
Based on AE's WS that's not strictly true John. DS Jones had his doubts days later:
"If you accused him and later found out you were wrong. Imagine how you would feel?"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3171.0;attach=3540
But according to Jonse's own WS, he did have suspicions from day 1.
-
Seems strange that Neville didn't say anything else.
Perhaps 'Jeremy, it's dad, please come over quickly, Sheila's gone crazy and she's got the gun'.
Just saying seven words to a half asleep Jeremy - 'Sheila's gone crazy, she's got the gun' is very abrupt. Sheila had not gone crazy anyway, otherwise Neville would have time to phone anyone.
Wilkes's book says Jeremy told PC West that Neville had said 'please come over'.
Perhaps you've just hit the nail on the head! If we assume SC was going crazy and she had the gun what options would NB have:
- Ignore SC and leave her to her own devices
- Attempt to recover the gun from her
- Phone the police
- Phone a.n other
- Phone JB
Sadly I am old enough (just) to remember the old dial phones. If we assume NB made the said call on the kitchen cream dial phone just calling 999 is likely to have taken longer than a four digit number (local to local 4 numbers in '85) to JB. If he called 999 he would need to give:
- his full name
- full postal address
- brief outline of the situation
If he called JB
- "Sheilas gone crazy shes got the gun"
Adam I think you have just solved the riddle of the phone call 8@??)( 8((()*/
-
We certainly will 8((()*/
Ha, ha! Nice try, I'm only 5' 1" and 151lb - 8**8:/:
What's with the 8**8:/: I thought when we discussed on Blue you said bi-curiosity hadn't crossed your mind? &%+((£
-
I would try to enter the house of a complete stranger - only my own family It wasn't Bews's family, he didn't know what he was dealing with. However, given that you think Jeremy didn't think it warranted a 999 call, he wouldn't have been too concerned, so why didn't he attempt to enter or even suggest that he should?
Hmm why would you try to enter the house of a complete stranger? &%+((£
-
But according to Jonse's own WS, he did have suspicions from day 1.
Yes that's true he was conflicted/unsure. I have posted about this previously. Apparently in the early days DS Jones was according to Dr V, the pathologist, the only dissenter. However the important point is that as far as Dr V was concerned there was nothing impressive in what DS Jones said nor anything of evidential value:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3827.msg144292#msg144292
You have recently posted on Blue about police practices in the 80's ie going on hunches and fabricating evidence:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6155.msg272871.html#msg272871
8(0(*
-
What's with the 8**8:/: I thought when we discussed on Blue you said bi-curiosity hadn't crossed your mind? &%+((£
Ha, ha!! Wow! That's a bit of a leap Holly - it wasn't an invitation! I think you only change the subject to play down the significance of what's been said - so back to he topic. It's totally unrealistic not to have expected him to have called 999. When I thought Bamber might be innocent, I also played down the significance of the calls but was never happy doing so, because there is no excuse unless he knew the local number off by heart - which he didn't.
-
Yes that's true he was conflicted/unsure. I have posted about this previously. Apparently in the early days DS Jones was according to Dr V, the pathologist, the only dissenter. However the important point is that as far as Dr V was concerned there was nothing impressive in what DS Jones said nor anything of evidential value:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3827.msg144292#msg144292
You have recently posted on Blue about police practices in the 80's ie going on hunches and fabricating evidence:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6155.msg272871.html#msg272871
8(0(*
I certainly did and I still think that some of the evidence was planted - I haven't changed my mind about that.
-
I certainly did and I still think that some of the evidence was planted - I haven't changed my mind about that.
Yet 8(0(*
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2931.msg103751.html#msg103751
-
Ha, ha!! Wow! That's a bit of a leap Holly - it wasn't an invitation!I think you only change the subject to play down the significance of what's been said - so back to he topic. It's totally unrealistic not to have expected him to have called 999. When I thought Bamber might be innocent, I also played down the significance of the calls but was never happy doing so, because there is no excuse unless he knew the local number off by heart - which he didn't.
Good, no one likes rejection. I could never get those shorts out of my mind 8)><(
Not at all, I thought we had agreed to disagree on the phone calls...
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5638.msg202074#msg202074
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5638.msg202105#msg202105
-
Yet 8(0(*
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2931.msg103751.html#msg103751
No yet about it - I won't be changing my mind on that!
-
Thanks for the Myall statements, Caroline. I shall bookmark this thread as Myall's is a statement I seem to have to keep coming back to.
-
If West wrote it down, Jeremy must have said it - there was no reason for him to just add the sentence.
Why must? Ever heard of poor listening skills? A feature of which can be jumping to conclusions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_to_conclusions
-
@ Caroline
If JB phoned Goldhanger from WHF allowed his answering machine to pick up then ended the call WHF end I think you will find the line would not have remained open WHF end for the operator to listen in? Just lifting the handset from the cradle does not create an open line?
-
@ Caroline
If JB phoned Goldhanger from WHF allowed his answering machine to pick up then ended the call WHF end I think you will find the line would not have remained open WHF end for the operator to listen in? Just lifting the handset from the cradle does not create an open line?
And that's another dreadful habit...looking on blue. Guilty as charged!! When I read that the 27 club all died because of suicide, I wanted to scoop my eyes out with a spork, jump out of my bedroom window, and set fire to myself.
Fasten your seatbelts, it's going to be a bumpy night!! 8(>((
-
@ Caroline
If JB phoned Goldhanger from WHF allowed his answering machine to pick up then ended the call WHF end I think you will find the line would not have remained open WHF end for the operator to listen in? Just lifting the handset from the cradle does not create an open line?
I think you should go back to the drawing board on that one because it does. Leaving the phone off the hook would cause the engaged tone if someone tried to call (which is what happened), the operator can break into the line to see if a conversation is going on OR if the line is engaged because it's off the hook.
-
I think you should go back to the drawing board on that one because it does. Leaving the phone off the hook would cause the engaged tone if someone tried to call (which is what happened), the operator can break into the line to see if a conversation is going on OR if the line is engaged because it's off the hook.
I am not talking about what tone a caller would receive if they called WHF and it was off the hook. I am talking about the operator distinguishing between a call made from WHF and terminated from WHF ie depressing the cradle and leaving the phone off the hook and a call made from WHF where the call was answered but no depression of the cradle occurred and the handset was simply left off the hook at WHF 8(0(*
JB sure must have done his homework on all of this 8(0(*
-
I am not talking about what tone a caller would receive if they called WHF and it was off the hook. I am talking about the operator distinguishing between a call made from WHF and terminated from WHF ie depressing the cradle and leaving the phone off the hook and a call made from WHF where the call was answered but no depression of the cradle occurred and the handset was simply left off the hook at WHF 8(0(*
JB sure must have done his homework on all of this 8(0(*
If he called GH from WHF, depressed the button and just left the handset on the counter, it would be off the hook but the call to WHF would be terminated. The operator could still break into the line. Even if it had been answered from the other end and left connected, the operator could still listen in. I'm not sure what point your're trying to make. Why would he need to do his homework? That's how phones worked then, he was surely familiar with the procedure. 8(0(*
-
If he called GH from WHF, depressed the button and just left the handset on the counter, it would be off the hook but the call to WHF would be terminated. The operator could still break into the line. Even if it had been answered from the other end and left connected, the operator could still listen in. I'm not sure what point your're trying to make. Why would he need to do his homework? That's how phones worked then, he was surely familiar with the procedure. 8(0(*
The scenarios and the mechanical processes are entirely different:
a) NB phoning GH from WHF. JB receiving call from WHF. NB leaving handset on worktop thus not ending call.
b) JB phoning answering machine at GH. Answer machine kicks in effectively being answered. JB depressing cradle at WHF and effectively terminating the call. This was the scenario you gave:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6179.msg274576.html#msg274576
Why would JB be familiar with the capability of the operator in the 1980's? I certainly would not have been.
Last week you doubted JB would be offay with the fact that Witham police station covered WHF and now, this week, you think he should be offay with operator capability. Lol.
Are you able to provide your sources?
-
The scenarios and the mechanical processes are entirely different:
a) NB phoning GH from WHF. JB receiving call from WHF. NB leaving handset on worktop thus not ending call.
b) JB phoning answering machine at GH. Answer machine kicks in effectively being answered. JB depressing cradle at WHF and effectively terminating the call. This was the scenario you gave:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6179.msg274576.html#msg274576
Why would JB be familiar with the capability of the operator in the 1980's? I certainly would not have been.
Last week you doubted JB would be offay with the fact that Witham police station covered WHF and now, this week, you think he should be offay with operator capability. Lol.
Are you able to provide your sources?
It was the scenario HE gave and there is no way an operator would be able to tell the difference between your scenario's or they would have given evidence in that respect. I didn't say he would be familiar with operator capability, just just how the phones work - it's not that difficult or compliacted LOL. You clearly don't know how the phone syatem worked back then. Ask an old BT engineer - I did! 8((()*/
-
It was the scenario HE gave and there is no way an operator would be able to tell the difference between your scenario's or they would have given evidence in that respect. I didn't say he would be familiar with operator capability, just just how the phones work - it's not that difficult or compliacted LOL. You clearly don't know how the phone syatem worked back then.Ask an old BT engineer - I did! 8((()*/
The scenario who gave?
The engineer at trial was asked what the effect would be on the GH line if NB had called GH from WHF with JB picking up and NB leaving the handset off the cradle ie not terminating the call.
68. There was no evidence of telephone billing information of the sort which would be available these days. There was, however, expert evidence called as to the effect of a telephone call having been made from White House Farm to Goldhanger which was then abandoned by the caller with the receiver being left off the cradle, as claimed by the appellant. If such a sequence had occurred, the telephone link would have remained open either until the handset at White House Farm was replaced or until the handset at Goldhanger had been replaced and left in position for a period which could vary from 1 to 2 minutes, when an automatic interruption of the link would take place. Until one or other of these events, the appellant would have been unable to make any call from the Goldhanger telephone.
What you are suggesting in your post as follows is entirely different:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6179.msg274576.html#msg274576
I'll leave the old BT engineers in your capable hands thanks 8((()*/
-
The scenario who gave?
The engineer at trial was asked what the effect would be on the GH line if NB had called GH from WHF with JB picking up and NB leaving the handset off the cradle ie not terminating the call.
68. There was no evidence of telephone billing information of the sort which would be available these days. There was, however, expert evidence called as to the effect of a telephone call having been made from White House Farm to Goldhanger which was then abandoned by the caller with the receiver being left off the cradle, as claimed by the appellant. If such a sequence had occurred, the telephone link would have remained open either until the handset at White House Farm was replaced or until the handset at Goldhanger had been replaced and left in position for a period which could vary from 1 to 2 minutes, when an automatic interruption of the link would take place. Until one or other of these events, the appellant would have been unable to make any call from the Goldhanger telephone.
What you are suggesting in your post as follows is entirely different:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6179.msg274576.html#msg274576
I'll leave the old BT engineers in your capable hands thanks 8((()*/
And? if after calling GH, Jeremy depressed the button, the call would be ended. The expert witness wasn't saying what did happen, he's just explaining what would have happened in either case. I'm saying Jeremy hung up the call (depressed the button). You can't say he didn't - we don't know but it's my theory and I'm entitled to it!
There is only one way to find out how the old phone system worked and that's to ask an old BT engineer - you continue speculating though - if that works for you ?>)()<
-
And? if after calling GH, Jeremy depressed the button, the call would be ended. The expert witness wasn't saying what did happen, he's just explaining what would have happened in either case. I'm saying Jeremy hung up the call (depressed the button). You can't say he didn't - we don't know but it's my theory and I'm entitled to it!
There is only one way to find out how the old phone system worked and that's to ask an old BT engineer - you continue speculating though - if that works for you ?>)()<
I don't know how I can make it clearer; the expert testimony at trial was based on NB abandoning the call ie not terminating the call as in depressing the cradle. Your sceario involves JB terminating the call at WHF ie depressing the cradle. If I was that bothered, and I'm not, I'm sure I could find a young BT engineer with good historical knowledge. I'll leave you to your old BT engineers. You seem to have a thing for old BT engineers. Would this be pre-privatisation when they came complete with the prerequisite beard and union card at the ready?
-
I don't know how I can make it clearer; the expert testimony at trial was based on NB abandoning the call ie not terminating the call as in depressing the cradle. Your sceario involves JB terminating the call at WHF ie depressing the cradle. If I was that bothered, and I'm not, I'm sure I could find a young BT engineer with good historical knowledge. I'll leave you to your old BT engineers. You seem to have a thing for old BT engineers. Would this be pre-privatisation when they came complete with the prerequisite beard and union card at the ready?
Perhaps you need to make clear what you mean by 'abandoning'? Hung up? Depressed the button? Sat on it? It all amounts to the same! If all you want is information, then an old BT engineer (who actually worked on the system) is your best bet! Not sure about beards or union cards - I tend not to stereotype 8(0(*
-
Didn't Jerry say the phone went dead ie click followed by silence.
-
Didn't Jerry say the phone went dead ie click followed by silence.
Yep, which means he could have called from WHF himself, because such a scenario would simply involve him hanging up the phone (after calling GH) and placing the receiver on the worktop.
-
Caroline/John are you able to supply your source re the "click" please? First I've heard of a "click".
-
Perhaps you need to make clear what you mean by 'abandoning'? Hung up? Depressed the button? Sat on it? It all amounts to the same! If all you want is information, then an old BT engineer (who actually worked on the system) is your best bet! Not sure about beards or union cards - I tend not to stereotype 8(0(*
Well I know you have a penchant for hairy men from sparsely populated islands so just thought a bearded, pipe smoking, sandal wearing, BT engineer from the 80's pre privatisation with lefty views might be your type 8(0(*
I've used the same terminology as in the CoA doc. Its not my fault you're a thick Numpty Northerner 8(0(*
-
Well I know you have a penchant for hairy men from sparsely populated islands so just thought a bearded, pipe smoking, sandal wearing, BT engineer from the 80's pre privatisation with lefty views might be your type 8(0(*
I've used the same terminology as in the CoA doc. Its not my fault you're a thick Numpty Northerner 8(0(*
If only you knew as much as you think you do or were as funny as you believe. Thick am I? Least I understand how the phones worked back then @)(++(* How do you abandon a call without hanging up and how does the phone know if the button was depressed or the handset replaced and then immediately removed and placed on the work top? And how would an operator be able to tell the difference? I'll give you a clue - they're the same thing, with the same result! 8(0(* Oh and are you one of southerners who can't pronounce the 'T' in thick and just ends up being 'fick' *&*%£
-
If only you knew as much as you think you do or were as funny as you believe. Thick am I? Least I understand how the phones worked back then @)(++(* How do you abandon a call without hanging up and how does the phone know if the button was depressed or the handset replaced and then immediately removed and placed on the work top? And how would an operator be able to tell the difference? I'll give you a clue - they're the same thing, with the same result! 8(0(* Oh and are you one of southerners who can't pronounce the 'T' in thick and just ends up being 'fick' *&*%£
Unlike some I freely admit there are many aspects of the case that I know very little about:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5594.msg199301#msg199301
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5638.msg200342#msg200342
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5733.msg203456#msg203456
I don't need to demonstrate my competence. Its a forum full of armchair sleuths.
SOH is very subjective ('one man's meat is another man's poision) but its widely accepted on both forums that you are devoid of one so if you don't find some of my comments amusing I don't think I'll be losing sleep over it *&*%£
Its not about you understanding how the phones worked back then its about what the jury were told at trial.
Abandon a call without terminating it
A calls B. B answers. A and B engage in dialogue. A leaves phone on kitchen work top without ending the call (perhaps intending to resume dialogue with B after some distraction).
Terminating a call
A calls B. B answers. A and B engage in dialogue. A or some other person A's end, ends call by depressing cradle.
Lets get this straight there never was and there never will be any conclusive evidence showing whether JB is guilty as charged or the victim of a MoJ based on any aspect of the phone calls.
You have made positive comments re my posts on more than one occasion:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5638.msg199690#msg199690
How many time I have made positive comments re yours *&*%£
I pay very little attention to anything you say as I find you insincere and very capricious as indicated above and your change of stances like musical chairs: guilty, innocent, guilty:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2931.msg103751.html#msg103751
-
Unlike some I freely admit there are many aspects of the case that I know very little about:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5594.msg199301#msg199301
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5638.msg200342#msg200342
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5733.msg203456#msg203456
I don't need to demonstrate my competence. Its a forum full of armchair sleuths.
SOH is very subjective ('one man's meat is another man's poision) but its widely accepted on both forums that you are devoid of one so if you don't find some of my comments amusing I don't think I'll be losing sleep over it *&*%£
Its not about you understanding how the phones worked back then its about what the jury were told at trial.
Abandon a call without terminating it
A calls B. B answers. A and B engage in dialogue. A leaves phone on kitchen work top without ending the call (perhaps intending to resume dialogue with B after some distraction).
Terminating a call
A calls B. B answers. A and B engage in dialogue. A or some other person A's end, ends call by depressing cradle.
Lets get this straight there never was and there never will be any conclusive evidence showing whether JB is guilty as charged or the victim of a MoJ based on any aspect of the phone calls.
You have made positive comments re my posts on more than one occasion:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5638.msg199690#msg199690
How many time I have made positive comments re yours *&*%£
I pay very little attention to anything you say as I find you insincere and very capricious as indicated above and your change of stances like musical chairs: guilty, innocent, guilty:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2931.msg103751.html#msg103751
If you're not interested in what I say - then stop directing questions my way. Your posts seem to belie your 'not interested' claim. If indeed you are not interested, this should be the last time you reply (hopefully) @)(++(*
I'll change my mind as many times as I see fit and if it winds you up, all to the good 8((()*/
You obviously have your wires crossed because we weren't discussing what the jury were told re: phone calls, we were talking about whether the call could be traced. What the jury were told or not told, has no bearing on what 'actually happened' as the witness was speaking 'in general terms'. Jeremy said the phone went dead but to an operator breaking into the line, it would make no difference if the call was abandoned or terminated.
You do 'sometimes' write some good posts when you're not attempting to 'try' and put one over on someone else. Then you just come over as spiteful and attention seeking.
As for your comment on competence - I think you brought that subject up first, so kindly remember your response when questioning other people's in future!
-
Jeremy said the phone went dead ie someone terminated the call from WHF. He said this of course to avoid having to answer questions about background noise such as voices or shouting.
Fact is, the entire 'Nevill phoned Jeremy' story was a fabrication simply intended to give substance to the 'Sheila did it' fairytale. Had Nevill actually phoned Jeremy, he (Jeremy) would have heard Sheila in the background otherwise Nevill would have given him much more information or would not have terminated the call in the way it was alleged. Are we expected to believe a deranged Sheila was giving Nevill hand signals? All too daft for words!
-
Jeremy said the phone went dead ie someone terminated the call from WHF. He said this of course to avoid having to answer questions about background noise such as voices or shouting.
Fact is, the entire 'Nevill phoned Jeremy' story was a fabrication simply intended to give substance to the 'Sheila did it' fairytale. Had Nevill actually phoned Jeremy, he (Jeremy) would have heard Sheila in the background otherwise Nevill would have given him much more information or would not have terminated the call in the way it was alleged. Are we expected to believe a deranged Sheila was giving Nevill hand signals? All too daft for words!
I agree, the call was designed to create the impression that Jeremy was elsewhere when the family were killed. If he was answering a call from his father when it was all kicking off, he couldn't have been involved.
-
Jeremy said the phone went dead ie someone terminated the call from WHF. He said this of course to avoid having to answer questions about background noise such as voices or shouting.
Fact is, the entire 'Nevill phoned Jeremy' story was a fabrication simply intended to give substance to the 'Sheila did it' fairytale. Had Nevill actually phoned Jeremy, he (Jeremy) would have heard Sheila in the background otherwise Nevill would have given him much more information or would not have terminated the call in the way it was alleged. Are we expected to believe a deranged Sheila was giving Nevill hand signals? All too daft for words!
As with much of this case the communication is unclear and ambiguous surrounding the phone call. JB refers to the call as "dead" in his WS:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5631.0;attach=4566
The CoA doc refers to the call as "abandoned":
68. There was no evidence of telephone billing information of the sort which would be available these days. There was, however, expert evidence called as to the effect of a telephone call having been made from White House Farm to Goldhanger which was then abandoned by the caller with the receiver being left off the cradle, as claimed by the appellant. If such a sequence had occurred, the telephone link would have remained open either until the handset at White House Farm was replaced or until the handset at Goldhanger had been replaced and left in position for a period which could vary from 1 to 2 minutes, when an automatic interruption of the link would take place. Until one or other of these events, the appellant would have been unable to make any call from the Goldhanger telephone.
I am even more inclined to see the phone call as being legit now it seems unlikely NB said "Please come over". If someone is woken at circa 3am to be greeted by the phone ringing and a brief message like "Sheila's gone crazy shes got a gun" and then the call goes dead or is abandoned I'm not sure we can expect the recipient to be in a position to impart further information? How do you know NB was in a position to impart further info if the situation had become critical with shots being fired elsewhere? If June screamed out NB's natural reaction would surely be to drop the phone and go to her aid? Often airlines etc make mayday calls with limited info being imparted before the plane falls off the radar and crashes. Its what happens when someone makes a distress/SOS call.
As far as I can see the only fact that relates to the call is the fact that there are no facts to prove or disprove it was made.
-
Sheila had 'gone' 'crazy'.
It was too late for Neville and June. Sheila was not just agitated. She was past that now & there was no point trying to reason with her.
She was holding a gun which is used for shooting rabbits. And had once gone on a shooting trip. I think.
As Sheila had 'gone' 'crazy' with the 'gun', there was only one person who could save the day. Stand up Mr Jeremy Bamber.
Neville ran to the bedroom phone. Which wasn't there. So ran to the study phone, before changing his mind again and deciding to use the kitchen phone. Which was actually the bedroom phone plugged in downstairs. Still with me ?
Sadly Jeremy was tired after sitting on his tractor all day. So rather than save everyone, just managed a stroll around WHF with those nice police men he had (eventually) telephoned. But he did draw them a map.
Julie was summoned over to drool at her hero. After breakfast of course. Jeremy was starving.
-
I thought Jeremy would have got on his tractor and driven through the front door. Rugged Roger Moore was doing those sorts of things in the 80's & he was in his 50's.