Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: mercury on July 13, 2015, 11:37:00 PM
Title: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: mercury on July 13, 2015, 11:37:00 PM
What do you make of this statement? what could it mean?
Stephen Carpenter who was at the Tapas Bar the same night as the Tapas group said he and his wife left there between 9.30 and 9.45 and on their way home, he remembers his wife saying she heard someone calling Madeleine
Some have said this means she was abducted
What could it mean?
Someone looking for her ?
My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling "Madeleine, Madeleine", this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment. She does not remember where the sound came from or whether it was in an urgent tone, not paying any more attention to it and only remembered the following day when we heard about Madeleine's disappearance".
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: mercury on July 15, 2015, 09:15:04 PM
No ideas? Oh well.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 15, 2015, 09:43:18 PM
Gerry said the Carpenters left shortly after their friends arrived so that connects to possibly Gerry, Jane or Jes Wilkins. It could be possibly Matt calling her on his check at 9:30. He did find her missing but my theory explains who took her out before his check.
Between approximately a quarter past nine and half past nine we left the Tapas bar to go home.
Gerry said the Carpenters left shortly after their friends arrived so that connects to possibly Gerry, Jane or Jes Wilkins. It could be possibly Matt calling her on his check at 9:30. He did find her missing but my theory explains who took her out before his check.
Between approximately a quarter past nine and half past nine we left the Tapas bar to go home.
Thanks. I doubt Jez Wilkins would be calling Madeleine for any reason. It seems a checker did so, Jane wasn't one, so that leaves GM or MO. Then again SCs wife could have been mistaken, or maybe not.
It does though sound like someone was calling out because they couldnt find her!
Curious element
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 15, 2015, 10:10:21 PM
Thanks. I doubt Jez Wilkins would be calling Madeleine for any reason. It seems a checker did so, Jane wasn't one, so that leaves GM or MO. Then again SCs wife could have been mistaken, or maybe not.
It does though sound like someone was calling out because they couldnt find her!
Curious element
Yes that is the obvious explanation. A checker was looking for her so Gerry or Matt. They will be questioned by SY if not already.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: Anna on July 15, 2015, 10:10:21 PM
Gerry said the Carpenters left shortly after their friends arrived so that connects to possibly Gerry, Jane or Jes Wilkins. It could be possibly Matt calling her on his check at 9:30. He did find her missing but my theory explains who took her out before his check.
Between approximately a quarter past nine and half past nine we left the Tapas bar to go home.
I have read that, Gerry was speaking to the carpenters until all his friends had arrived at about 9pm. Where does it say when the carpenters actually left? I cant find it, Pathfinder. I would be grateful for your directions or a link. thanks in advance
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 15, 2015, 10:13:12 PM
I have read that, Gerry was speaking to the carpenters until all his friends had arrived at about 9pm. Where does it say when the carpenters actually left? I cant find it, Pathfinder. I would be grateful for your directions or a link. thanks in advance
7:30
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: Anna on July 15, 2015, 10:18:28 PM
Yes that is the obvious explanation. A checker was looking for her so Gerry or Matt. They will be questioned by SY if not already.
We dont know as SY are silent, bar for the release of info re MO being requestioned last year, or maybe the year before that, cant remember, but was all over the radio news at least, never saw it on tv
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 15, 2015, 11:31:53 PM
We dont know as SY are silent, bar for the release of info re MO being requestioned last year, or maybe the year before that, cant remember, but was all over the radio news at least, never saw it on tv
Matt was requestioned? I wouldn't be surprised with his 9:50 Kate left to check time. This new timeline seems to connect to his time.
The first was at 5.26pm, at the precise time when Madeleine was leaving the resort’s crèche.
A text message was exchanged at 9.25pm when two of the McCanns’ holiday pals left their dinner in a tapas bar to check on the group’s children who were asleep in the nearby apartments.
The two suspects were in contact again at 9.38pm when one of the McCanns’ pals Jane Tanner left the restaurant to check on her children.
They were in touch again at 9.51pm as Madeleine’s GP mum walked to her apartment to find her then three-year-old daughter missing.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: pegasus on July 15, 2015, 11:51:56 PM
Here are the actual words "... one couple we played tennis with, and we chatted to them, and then some friends started arriving, and they left shortly after that ..." (Panorama 7m30s)
So the C family left Tapas near the beginning of the T9 meal.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: sadie on July 16, 2015, 01:20:33 AM
Matt was requestioned? I wouldn't be surprised with his 9:50 Kate left to check time. This new timeline seems to connect to his time.
The first was at 5.26pm, at the precise time when Madeleine was leaving the resort’s crèche.
A text message was exchanged at 9.25pm when two of the McCanns’ holiday pals left their dinner in a tapas bar to check on the group’s children who were asleep in the nearby apartments.
The two suspects were in contact again at 9.38pm when one of the McCanns’ pals Jane Tanner left the restaurant to check on her children.
They were in touch again at 9.51pm as Madeleine’s GP mum walked to her apartment to find her then three-year-old daughter missing.
9.51? Another myth being formed? In order to promote your theory?
Almost everyone states 10 pm.
Please try not to obfuscate Pfinder. We are trying to find a little missing girl.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 16, 2015, 01:25:56 AM
9.51? Another myth being formed? In order to promote your theory?
Almost everyone states 10 pm.
Please try not to obfuscate Pfinder. We are trying to find a little missing girl.
I find truth you find myths. Matt said 9:50. It's in his statement and he had a watch. Smithman can be any of them now. Another revelation moment for SY.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: sadie on July 16, 2015, 01:47:44 AM
I find truth you find myths. Matt said 9:50. It's in his statement and he had a watch. Smithman can be any of them now. Another revelation moment for SY.
@)(++(* Another revelation moment for SY. @)(++(* Just pause a minute and think what conclusions you are jumping to.
You make me laugh Pfinder
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 02:17:32 AM
But Sadie do you think it is possible that Mrs C may have heard someone shouting the child's name while the mother was still at the restaurant?
More likely imo is that the abductor was fearful that he or his assistant had overdosed Madeleine, and he was trying to make sure that she did not die. There are pointers that this abduction was pre planned, so Madeleines name would be known to the abductor.
OR
That Stephen Carpenters statement about his wife being third party, meant that Chinese Whispers had interfered with fact again
OR
Caroline heard the calling after they arrived home, but misrememberd.
One of the first two is most likely IMO
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: Benice on July 16, 2015, 02:25:28 AM
But Sadie do you think it is possible that Mrs C may have heard someone shouting the child's name while the mother was still at the restaurant?
It was only a vague recollection so not that reliable. However, I suppose it is feasible that if the McCann family had been watched for several days and become aware of Madeleine's name - that Mrs C could have heard the abducter calling her name. Who knows?
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 03:30:23 AM
Assuming Mrs C heard it just before arrriving back at their apartment. The person shouting the girl's name was within earshot of that apartment - searching outside.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: G-Unit on July 16, 2015, 07:20:57 AM
Assuming Mrs C heard it just before arrriving back at their apartment. The person shouting the girl's name was within earshot of that apartment - searching outside.
Interestingly there were at least three people within earshot; Mrs Carpenter, Raj Balu and Neil Berry (and maybe their partners/wives). I know that Berry and Balu made early statements but they're not in the files. There's no statement from Mrs Carpenter in the files either. Raj Balu mentions overhearing a 'conversation' when he was on Berry's balcony, but not anyone calling out.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 16, 2015, 12:36:18 PM
Stating the very obvious... On Gerry's check he noticed the door open...NOT THE JEMMIED WINDOW, Gerry looked at his daughter and thought how beautuful she was and how lucky he was. Within a few minutes (according to JT seeing the fleeing abductor)someone jemmied a window-stole maddie then ran out the window again? without making a sound? AND again NO JEMMIED WINDOW just an open door?
Window and shutters red herring!
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: Brietta on July 16, 2015, 12:40:28 PM
Stating the very obvious... On Gerry's check he noticed the door open...NOT THE JEMMIED WINDOW, Gerry looked at his daughter and thought how beautuful she was and how lucky he was. Within a few minutes (according to JT seeing the fleeing abductor)someone jemmied a window-stole maddie then ran out the window again? without making a sound? AND again NO JEMMIED WINDOW just an open door?
Window and shutters red herring!
Oh absolutely ... one would have thought when 'staging' an abduction ... the least that could have been done was to get the story straight so that everyone was singing from the same hymn sheet.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: Carana on July 16, 2015, 12:49:41 PM
Assuming Mrs C heard it just before arrriving back at their apartment. The person shouting the girl's name was within earshot of that apartment - searching outside.
Steve C was recounting something that his wife "vaguely remembered".
Possibiities: a) Steve was confused himself about his wife's recollection b) heard someone calling out for Madeleine at that earlier time c) heard someone calling out some other name or simply calling out and thought it might have been been related to her d) heard one or more people calling out for Madeleine, but actually later in the evening and recollections got jumbled
C or D seem more likely to me.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 12:56:35 PM
--- (sorry wrong thread)
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 16, 2015, 12:58:42 PM
Oh absolutely ... one would have thought when 'staging' an abduction ... the least that could have been done was to get the story straight so that everyone was singing from the same hymn sheet.
Indeed! their arrogance is on display from day 1.
Perhaps you can explain why JT claims seeing the 'abductor' a few minutes after Gerry is leaving his daughter sleeping with door/shutters and window SHUT. THEN the windows open/shutters jemmied child missing. a few minutes with Gerry/ Jez/ Jane ALL IN THE VACINITY...
Anyone?
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 01:02:09 PM
Steve C was recounting something that his wife "vaguely remembered".
Possibiities: a) Steve was confused himself about his wife's recollection b) heard someone calling out for Madeleine at that earlier time c) heard someone calling out some other name or simply calling out and thought it might have been been related to her d) heard one or more people calling out for Madeleine, but actually later in the evening and recollections got jumbled
C or D seem more likely to me.
A and C are unlikely IMO. B seems unlikely because if true would mean someone was searching outdoors long before the alarm. So D is probably the most likely - she heard one of the very first searchers in the area east of 5A just after the alarm.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: Carana on July 16, 2015, 01:07:27 PM
Yes, that's what I think as well. Where (roughly) were they staying? If not too far away, it would seem likely that various people were calling out for Madeleine and if there's no particular reason to listen to extraneous noise or are sleepy, recollections can easily get jumbled up.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 01:20:11 PM
Yes, that's what I think as well. Where (roughly) were they staying? If not too far away, it would seem likely that various people were calling out for Madeleine and if there's no particular reason to listen to extraneous noise or are sleepy, recollections can easily get jumbled up.
Fiji Palms. Third building east from Block 5.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: sadie on July 16, 2015, 06:39:59 PM
Perhaps you can explain why JT claims seeing the 'abductor' a few minutes after Gerry is leaving his daughter sleeping with door/shutters and window SHUT. THEN the windows open/shutters jemmied child missing. a few minutes with Gerry/ Jez/ Jane ALL IN THE VACINITY...
Anyone?
Window out of sight, out of earshot , around the corner from Gerry and Jez.
Impossible to see or to hear.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: Carana on July 16, 2015, 06:52:07 PM
Route home from restuarant is out through the little reception building, cross road, through the carpark south of block 6, then across to the other side of the big grass area.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: sadie on July 17, 2015, 12:26:27 AM
Route home from restuarant is out through the little reception building, cross road, through the carpark south of block 6, then across to the other side of the big grass area.
Are you absolutely certain of that Pegasus, because when I read about their route home, I was unable to make sense of the description.
I actually think that you are probably right, but am not sure enough to state that in black and white.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: misty on July 17, 2015, 12:52:22 AM
Their apartment was immediately adjacent to the back garden of Casa Liliana.
Aha ... the conversation with Robert Murat through the hedge leading to Mr Carpenter accompanying him and introducing him to Gerry McCann (have I got that right?).
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: sadie on July 17, 2015, 01:07:50 AM
It's easiest if you do a satellite image on Google Earth, working across from the Tapas pool, heading right & over the grassy area with the solitary palm tree, then over the top of Casa Liliana.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: pegasus on July 17, 2015, 02:05:44 AM
It's easiest if you do a satellite image on Google Earth, working across from the Tapas pool, heading right & over the grassy area with the solitary palm tree, then over the top of Casa Liliana.
How many minutes walk do you think?
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: misty on July 17, 2015, 02:19:11 AM
If they left Tapas "shortly after" the T7 started arriving at Tapas, they would be home about 9.15? 9.30?
Anytime from 8.35 to 9.10 I would say. It would depend on how many of the group had arrived when the Carpenters left and which couples they were familiar with.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: pegasus on July 17, 2015, 02:57:10 AM
If Mrs C's vague recollection on way home of hearing someone calling "Madeleine Madeleine" is correct, it is difficult to make it as late as 21.50 or 22.00.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: misty on July 17, 2015, 03:29:34 AM
If Mrs C's vague recollection on way home of hearing someone calling "Madeleine Madeleine" is correct, it is difficult to make it as late as 21.50 or 22.00.
Yes. I agree. It's a waste of time speculating without having access to her statement. Problem is, SC makes reference in his rogatory to seeing around 10 members of the group at the table & people leaving to go & check the children. If we accept that he witnessed at least the 9pm check, then he probably didn't leave until 9.05 - but before Gerry left to carry out his check.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: pegasus on July 17, 2015, 03:37:51 AM
Yes. I agree. It's a waste of time speculating without having access to her statement. Problem is, SC makes reference in his rogatory to seeing around 10 members of the group at the table & people leaving to go & check the children. If we accept that he witnessed at least the 9pm check, then he probably didn't leave until 9.05 - but before Gerry left to carry out his check.
He gives various estimates of time for example "Between approximately a quarter past nine and half past nine we left the Tapas bar to go home" Which would be after GM check and chat finished ?
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: G-Unit on July 17, 2015, 07:19:49 AM
He gives various estimates of time for example "Between approximately a quarter past nine and half past nine we left the Tapas bar to go home" Which would be after GM check and chat finished ?
Carpenter mentions cars parked in the road, but they were approx. 6 metres from the tapas entrance. According to head chef Pelega he arrived at the Tapas at 21,10H and he parked next to a blue car, but he doesn't specify exactly where. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ARLINDO-PELEGA.htm http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: pegasus on July 17, 2015, 01:37:08 PM
Let's assume Mrs C, just before she got home from tapas, did hear the very first searching. The only way to make that work is:
M returns to tapas G leaves tapas J leaves tapas G returns to tapas J returns to tapas M and R leave tapas M returns to tapas J leaves tapas R returns to tapas C family leave tapas ??? K leaves tapas K returns to tapas G K R M R D F leave tapas G K R M R D F arrive at 5A garden gate Searches begin Mrs C hears searcher calling girl's name ??? C family arrive home ???
IMO it's impossible to make it work if the C family left tapas any earlier than that.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: Anna on July 17, 2015, 01:50:06 PM
Let's assume Mrs C, just before she got home from tapas, did hear the very first searching. The only way to make that work is:
M returns to tapas G leaves tapas J leaves tapas G returns to tapas J returns to tapas M and R leave tapas M returns to tapas J leaves tapas R returns to tapas C family leave tapas ??? K leaves tapas K returns to tapas G K R M R D F leave tapas G K R M R D F arrive at 5A garden gate Searches begin Mrs C hears searcher calling girl's name ??? C family arrive home ???
IMO it's impossible to make it work if the C family left tapas any earlier than that.
SC said that people were getting up and going out intermittingly. Which means he saw G and JT leaving at least. They went to bed immediately after arriving at their accommodation at 10.30 pm? I think they left after 9.30. They aren't alone in getting times wrong. They booked dinner for 7PM. so a long time in tapas.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: G-Unit on July 17, 2015, 01:51:00 PM
Let's assume Mrs C, just before she got home from tapas, did hear the very first searching. The only way to make that work is:
M returns to tapas G leaves tapas J leaves tapas G returns to tapas J returns to tapas M and R leave tapas M returns to tapas J leaves tapas R returns to tapas C family leave tapas ??? K leaves tapas K returns to tapas G K R M R D F leave tapas G K R M R D F arrive at 5A garden gate Searches begin Mrs C hears searcher calling girl's name ??? C family arrive home ???
IMO it's impossible to make it work if the C family left tapas any earlier than that.
Unless, of course the chef was correct;
A few minutes later, when it was around 21H20, he heard some clamour, which made him leave toward the restaurant, a few meters away, and was then informed that a child had disappeared. Given the importance of this, believed that he should be in the surroundings. At that moment, he did not leave the area of the restaurant, and did not have the opportunity to check if the vehicle mentioned before was situated in the same location; . Later, at around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples; http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ARLINDO-PELEGA.htm
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: Anna on July 17, 2015, 02:15:57 PM
A few minutes later, when it was around 21H20, he heard some clamour, which made him leave toward the restaurant, a few meters away, and was then informed that a child had disappeared. Given the importance of this, believed that he should be in the surroundings. At that moment, he did not leave the area of the restaurant, and did not have the opportunity to check if the vehicle mentioned before was situated in the same location; . Later, at around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples; http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ARLINDO-PELEGA.htm
They all got times mixed up, G. It was a panicky time for all.
22.15 approx (29) Alexandre da Luz Oliveira
He served Russell and shortly thereafter, he was alerted to strange movements in the restaurant perimeters. He refers to the movements of two men from said group—David Payne and Matthew, who appeared to be searching the gardens the areas near the bar. The witness went to the esplanade zone and saw that the table that had previously been occupied by nine adults was now occupied only by the older woman, called Dianne Webster. It was also at this time that he saw that Russell’s food was only half eaten and that the others had all finished their dinner. David Payne and Matthew were nervously searching the area. The witness went to them, he does not remember which one, and asked what was happening. One of them responded to the witness in English stating “GIRL IS MISSING”—that a child had gone missing. After a few moments, around 5 or 10 minutes, he heard screaming from the apartment zone and saw a woman on the balcony of 5A. He did not understand what she was saying. As it was night, and given the distance from the Tapas bar to the apartment, he was not able to determine if there was someone else next to the woman on the balcony. At that moment his colleague, Joe, met up with him and asked the witness to call the police, and that a child has gone missing and could not be found. Immediately afterwards, Joe left toward the street. He does not know who gave this information to Joe but the witness (or his colleague who believes the witness did so)called the reception asking them to inform the police.About 22.15? http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic9.html I believe this would have been Joe who ran out into the street and called Helder from the other restaurant asking him to phone the policeat http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic9-130.html
22.20-22.30 (33) Jeronimo Tomas Rodrigues Salcedas Referring to the day of 3rd May when Madeleine disappeared, the witness says that he was working. At that time, at about 22.20 – 22.30 he noticed that there was only one person sitting at the group’s table, the oldest of them and he asked her jokingly whether they had left her alone. http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic9-140.html
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: pegasus on July 17, 2015, 02:17:33 PM
A few minutes later, when it was around 21H20, he heard some clamour, which made him leave toward the restaurant, a few meters away, and was then informed that a child had disappeared. Given the importance of this, believed that he should be in the surroundings. At that moment, he did not leave the area of the restaurant, and did not have the opportunity to check if the vehicle mentioned before was situated in the same location; . Later, at around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples; http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ARLINDO-PELEGA.htm
Yes, but then how can we compress the timeline, with all the checks, so it ends at 21:20? What time was the meal booked to start, on the reservation sheet?
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: Anna on July 17, 2015, 02:29:07 PM
Yes, but then how can we compress the timeline, with all the checks, so it ends at 21:20? What time was the meal booked to start, on the reservation sheet?
IIRC. Some of the group arrived late and as would be expected, the rest of the group waited until everyone was seated, before ordering or starting their meal. Do you think that they could have eaten a 3/4 course meal and done all the checking between courses much before 9.45/50pm when Russell returned from sorting out his child?
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: G-Unit on July 17, 2015, 02:50:38 PM
Yes, but then how can we compress the timeline, with all the checks, so it ends at 21:20? What time was the meal booked to start, on the reservation sheet?
20.30pm was the booking time. Perhaps that's why the PJ wanted the reconstitution?
Property manager B. J. J. W. heard about the news being investigated on the evening of 3rd May at about 21.30 - 21.40 from P.B., a Dutchman and owner of the Atlantico restaurant, who passed by the witness near the Baptista supermarket, in P da L and who asked for his help in searching for Madeleine. He then went to the place where the events occurred which was at about 21.45 - 21.50. At this time various local people and MW staff were present. When questioned he said that the police had not yet arrived and that about 5 minutes had passed.
Dinner finished at around 21H45 and some minutes passed where waiter R. A.E D. L. O. looked towards the table but saw no one - his colleague told him that all the guests of that table left rapidly and abruptly. He remembers having heard shouts in the direction of the McCann apartment;
Between 21.30 and 22: Fitness instructor/Waiter J. R. S. went over to the table and joked with (Diane Webster): "They've left you alone?" She responded more of less with these words: "No, they went to see if the little girl was there." I responded that I hoped they would find her somewhere in the apartment. At saying this, I saw the man. Who I knew later to be Madeleine's father, running to the pool and to the children's play area in the Tapas zone as if looking for someone. It immediately hit me that after talking to the older woman, that the little girl had not been found. I offered to alert the workers at the Millennium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: pegasus on July 17, 2015, 02:50:43 PM
The usual timeline suggests the starters were ordered when the last 3 adults arrive from 5G at about 21:05? That is 35 minutes late (reservation was for 20:30). What time did first couple arrive at Tapas? Is it possible we can move the whole meal earlier? Like maybe all present and starters ordered at about 20:45, and meal ends abruptly at about 21:40?
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: pegasus on July 17, 2015, 03:00:11 PM
How would it be possible for someone to be searching long before the last check began?
Is it possible Mrs C heard some other parent calling for own child of same first name?
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: G-Unit on July 17, 2015, 04:01:31 PM
The usual timeline suggests the starters were ordered when the last 3 adults arrive from 5G at about 21:05? That is 35 minutes late (reservation was for 20:30). What time did first couple arrive at Tapas? Is it possible we can move the whole meal earlier? Like maybe all present and starters ordered at about 20:45, and meal ends abruptly at about 21:40?
Everyone agrees that the last ones to arrive were the Paynes. In their first statements Fiona and Dianne say they got there at 8.45pm.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: pegasus on July 17, 2015, 04:18:02 PM
Interesting, if that time is accurate, then the first check was also at 8.45pm (not 9.00pm).
Well he(Matt) says they got to the tapas at 8.45 and it was 5 mins to nine that he went to check on the Paynes and decided to carry on and check the children even it was only 15 mins ago that they had left.
David P said that they left between 8.45 and 9 pm.
Some more Time muddles really, but I think Matt's account fits best, since the table was booked for 8.30-9pm
D Payne
00:46:42 1485 "And what time do you think that was?” Reply "Err we were, we were just before nine, you know just before nine o’ clock err we yeah we went between quarter to and nine o’ clock.” 1485 "And then you sat down, after the comments of course that you…” Reply "Yes, yeah.”
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic39.html M oldfield
because we can see the Tapas from our patio doors, we can see when anybody else goes down there, because the original table was booked for eight thirty, erm, we were a bit later that night and it was about quarter to and we saw Gerry and Kate down there and so we locked up, went round and joined them at the table. Now I don’t recall seeing Jane and Russell there, but I’m told that Jane was there at the time as well. But we got there and sort of chatted and then Russell arrived. And we were all there, apart from Dave and Fiona and Fiona’s mother, Dianne, at sort of five to nine,
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic42.html
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: Anna on July 17, 2015, 06:31:10 PM
So the Carpenters possibly saw, Matt get up and go out at 8.55pm and the Paynes arrive at about 9 pm Gerry go out at around 9.05pm And JT go out at 9.13 and Gerry return at 9.15 then JT returns…………
,,,.A bit like a Buffet bar/waiting room in Paddington station, really, except for the food served was without cellophane wrappers.
We don’t know however if the Carpenters were still there when the men went out at 9.30pm which would have given us a closer time to when they did leave( SC just said “ people leaving intermittently”) Since they didn’t mention seeing any of the group outside and SC spent some time checking before crossing the road. I would have thought that it was after Matt returned.
Russ‘s child was crying………………Could she have been calling “Mummy” or “Daddy” and this is what was heard? A bit far away to hear that though. And that would more likely be before Russ got to the apartment. unless she carried on crying for a while.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: G-Unit on July 17, 2015, 07:30:16 PM
The receptionist, Helder;
He knows about the situation that happened at the Ocean Club concerning the disappearance of a little given that on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: pegasus on July 17, 2015, 07:59:06 PM
He knows about the situation that happened at the Ocean Club concerning the disappearance of a little given that on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
IMO this call is from employee JH mobile to reception. He had just been called into PDL and phoned from near tapas IMO. Call is in reception landline records timed by PT network clock just before 10:40pm (shortly before the first reception to GNR call which it prompted).
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: mercury on July 17, 2015, 09:51:37 PM
How would it be possible for someone to be searching long before the last check began?
Is it possible Mrs C heard some other parent calling for own child of same first name?
There are no female children in the OC records whose first name begins with an M. It is possible there was a same named child staying there as as part of an apartment privately owned or a guest of friends. Guess we cannot really know if the recollection was true, mistaken, or relating to another night.It just seemed curious to me that they left by 9.30pm at the latest, whch "seems" about right seeing as their reservation was very early on that evening and within the few minutes it took them to get home Mrs C heard someone.One for the back burner.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: pegasus on July 17, 2015, 10:56:50 PM
"At approximately half past eight, Gerry and Kate and their group of approximately ten people were already seated at their table, which was so close to ours that it was possible to converse with them, we spoke of tennis amongst other things" http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm
All T9 adults seated at about 8.30pm? Clearly some peoples' time estimates that evening were inaccurate. But which?
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: pegasus on July 17, 2015, 11:10:04 PM
"I vaguely remember that Gerry and Kate and other people from the group would leave the table in intervals ... I think it was to check on the children, but I do not remember with what frequency or how many times the people left the table to check on the children"
So this witness certainly did see some people leave the table. If he literally saw K leaving to do a check, that means he and his family left tapas just after K left to do her check?
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: mercury on July 17, 2015, 11:12:23 PM
"At approximately half past eight, Gerry and Kate and their group of approximately ten people were already seated at their table, which was so close to ours that it was possible to converse with them, we spoke of tennis amongst other things" http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm
All T9 adults seated at about 8.30pm? Clearly some peoples' time estimates that evening were inaccurate. But which?
Who knows. Probably the Tapas group. IMO. becAuse Carpenter says they all arrived together more or less, he wouldnt talk of 10 people all there at 8.30 if there was only a few of them
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: mercury on July 17, 2015, 11:17:34 PM
"I vaguely remember that Gerry and Kate and other people from the group would leave the table in intervals ... I think it was to check on the children, but I do not remember with what frequency or how many times the people left the table to check on the children"
So this witness certainly did see some people leave the table. If he literally saw K leaving to do a check, that means he and his family left tapas just after K left to do her check?
No one knows, dont you just wish cctv was there?
BTW how did Carpenter know they were leaving go check on kids rather than go toilet or get or out for a fag?
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: pegasus on July 17, 2015, 11:37:53 PM
DCF: And you were accompanied, you replied that you were with your children and your wife. Where did you go afterwards, it says here...before going back to your apartment, can you describe the route you took'
SC: Directly to the apartment.
DCF: Did you see anyone outside the Tapas Bar or outside the apartments'
SC: If I saw anyone outside the Tapas bar or, hummm.. on the way home presumably'
DCF: Yes, is there anyone you remember that night, did you see anyone in the area'
SC: No.
DCF: At what time did you go to bed'
SC: Almost immediately, we put the children to bed because it was already quite late for them, humm... about half past ten, yes, about half past ten (inaudible).
If you connect CC hearing someone calling for Madeleine, the Carpenters witnessing both Gerry & Kate leaving the table & the time the Carpenters went to bed very soon after returning to their own apartment, I think SC's estimate of 9.15pm as the time of leaving the Tapas Bar is the inconsistency.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: misty on July 17, 2015, 11:41:07 PM
BTW how did Carpenter know they were leaving go check on kids rather than go toilet or get or out for a fag?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm *snipped* SC: Yes, I remember that people would absent themselves intermittently at different times, but I did not know why.
DCF: no.
SC: But as we discovered later, it was to check on the children.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: mercury on July 17, 2015, 11:54:49 PM
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm *snipped* SC: Yes, I remember that people would absent themselves intermittently at different times, but I did not know why.
DCF: no.
SC: But as we discovered later, it was to check on the children.
I was going to say, yes,, he said that, in the same way silvia batista said she learnt later, that robert murat was robert murat, but only because TOLD by others but didnt know at the time, but then I remembered the Mccanns telling someone they left the kids alone and were checking them, but on thinking back that was not the carpenters.but others...just wondering again WHY parents who TELL ANYONE they didnt know they left their kids alone!! and then have the absolute GALL to complain ONCE they told restaraunt staff that they left their kids alone and who may have relayed that to seeing as they told at least two lots of people thats exactly what they did.
Why was Kate Mccann incensed when she found some note in the PJ files ghat was a receptipnists note saying her kids were alone if they told people they wer of theif ownfree will????
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: pegasus on July 17, 2015, 11:59:51 PM
The easiest solution is to have the C family leave tapas about same time as K's check. Then Mrs C may on way home hear the searching.
But that is contradicted by "... one couple we played tennis with, and we chatted to them, and then some friends started arriving, and they left shortly after that ..." (GM in Panorama video 7m30s see page 1 of this thread)
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: misty on July 18, 2015, 12:25:07 AM
The easiest solution is to have the C family leave tapas about same time as K's check. Then Mrs C may on way home hear the searching.
But that is contradicted by "... one couple we played tennis with, and we chatted to them, and then some friends started arriving, and they left shortly after that ..." (GM in Panorama video 7m30s see page 1 of this thread)
I would lend more credence to the recollection of the person leaving the table than the person remaining at the table amidst his group of friends.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: Anna on July 18, 2015, 01:16:35 PM
He knows about the situation that happened at the Ocean Club concerning the disappearance of a little given that on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
The times are all a muddle. I may also have slipped slightly from the topic, but it was necessary to answer the question regarding times.
Vitor Manuel dos Santos With regard to the date of the disappearance on 3rd May 2007, he remembers that at 22.00/22.15 he received a phone call from the reception, from receptionist Helder, who told him that John Hill was extremely agitated as a child had disappeared and that the GNR had been contacted but had not arrived yet. He added (the receptionist) that he had phoned the GNR post several times and that he had been told that they would arrive when they could but that they were investigating a theft in Odiaxere. The receptionist asked the witness whether he should contact the PSP, to which the witness replied no as this area belongs to the GNR.
Given the circumstances, the witness thought it best to go to the resort to find out more about the situation.
When he arrived at the scene about 10 to 15 minutes later, he immediately went to the reception where the GNR were present, taking a statement from the girl’s father.
According to VS- 22.00 -22.15 he was called by JHelder ….The timing above is wrong by at least 35 mins ?
J helder told him that he had called the police several times before calling him which means that it was after 22.50 that J Helder called him ? JHelder told him of a theft in odiaxere holding up the police?
According to J helder-
Helder Jorge Samaio Luis
Occupation: Receptionist Ocean Club
Has worked at the Ocean Club for almost a year and a half and works as a Receptionist at the main Ocean Club Reception. He doesn’t work fixed hours but he always works on the 16.00 to 24.00 shift.
All his work takes place at the main reception.
He knows about the situation that happened at the Ocean Club concerning the disappearance of a little given that on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared.
That he immediately contacted the GNR in Lagos, shortly after this the child’s father and John Hill arrived at the reception and he phoned the GNR again.
He then contacted the head of reception Vítor Santos and informed him of the situation.
He remained at the OC reception until 24.00 when he was replaced by a colleague Mr Eliseu.
He then left the OC and went home.
According to John Hill and several others - He J hill arrived at OC around 22.33
According to GNR- The patrol had a call while in Odiaxere and left immediately for OC
The GNR statements said the patrol was in Odiaxere The receptionist statement never mentioned Odiaxere
So where did VS come up with the story of a theft? Maybe the GNR? Why was his timing out by so much?
J Hill arrived at OC around 22.33 VS was called by the receptionist when Gerry and J hill were in reception or around or just after according to Helder.. Directly after Hill and Gerry arrived, Helder called the police again….that would have been the last call recorded around 22.50 then he called VS
So the first call was after J Hill arrived at 22.33 -(22.40) and the second after J hill arrived in reception 22.50 He then called VS
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: slartibartfast on July 19, 2015, 12:29:16 PM
The times are all a muddle. I may also have slipped slightly from the topic, but it was necessary to answer the question regarding times.
I tend to agree with that for all timings.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: pegasus on July 19, 2015, 01:16:24 PM
If we ignore guesses of times by witnesses, and look only at the order things happened, IMO it is clear from SC's statement that he saw some of the T9 getting up from table to do checks (and maybe some visits to the toilet block in the same direction), before he and his family left the restaurant.
So SC and family IMO left restaurant after some checks, but probably not as late as KM check IMO.
BTW do any of the T9 statements actually mention that the C family in restaurant had their young kids eating with them? Isn't that something the group would remember?
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: Anna on July 19, 2015, 01:46:59 PM
If we ignore guesses of times by witnesses, and look only at the order things happened, IMO it is clear from SC's statement that he saw some of the T9 getting up from table to do checks (and maybe some visits to the toilet block in the same direction), before he and his family left the restaurant.
So SC and family IMO left restaurant after some checks, but probably not as late as KM check IMO.
BTW do any of the T9 statements actually mention that the C family in restaurant had their young kids eating with them? Isn't that something the group would remember?
The children of SC are not on the Tapas booking form and there were other children there as well. If it was a regular occurrence for children to be there, I doubt that anyone would take notice. The couple ? sitting on their balcony did not see anyone leave, but they didn't see Jez or Gerry either. They were watching children playing and saw the dining room. IIRC.
SC statement is a bit confusing also, with all the other information he gave.
Title: Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
Post by: pegasus on July 19, 2015, 02:20:36 PM
The children of SC are not on the Tapas booking form and there were other children there as well. If it was a regular occurrence for children to be there, I doubt that anyone would take notice. The couple ? sitting on their balcony did not see anyone leave, but they didn't see Jez or Gerry either. They were watching children playing and saw the dining room. IIRC.
SC statement is a bit confusing also, with all the other information he gave.
Also two couples were dining outside on the balcony of apartment 606 (the east-end first-floor apartment of block 6). This balcony has a view of the tapas reception entrance. And the C family walked directly next to this balcony on their way home.