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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Alfred R Jones on March 06, 2016, 12:08:49 PM
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This claim has been made today on this forum. Is it true? Let's examine the facts.
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Well? There is a school of thought on this forum that an abduction was staged but then, instead of doing what you'd expect ie: rushing around calling the police, tearing the place apart, screaming, shouting, searching, etc, the McCanns calmly sat down with their mates and constructed a timeline instead. The reason for this belief is that there is not a single independent witness statement that confirms frantic post-alarm activity. But is this true?
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Furthermore this school of thought would tend to suggest that the entire Tapas Group whether directly involved in a cover up or not were far more concerned about covering their own arses than the whereabouts of a little girl. This would therefore suggest that, to a man and woman, they were ALL entirely selfish, uncaring people, including the grandmother in the group. Is this an accurate view of them all?
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From Dianne Webster's statement
4078 ”Do you remember who else was around when you back to the apartment?”
Reply ”I think, well Fiona was there I think and err Rachael, I remember seeing Rachael and Gerry, I just remember Gerry sitting in the chair just absolutely, well roaring is the only word I can describe it as, just absolutely beside himself. The men, the other men I think were, had gone out looking, running around shouting Madeleine,
So is she lying, or was this after they'd all sat down calmly and scribbled out the timeline?
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More from Dianne Webster:
4078 ”So when you’ve ended up back at the apartment, you described how helpless you felt because you were confined to your apartment, is there anything that you can describe about what was going on around? I mean you’ve already described about Kate and the noises they made.”
Reply ”Well yeah the noise, the noise coming from err Kate and Gerry’s apartment, err I could hear lots of noises in the distance but this is when a lot of the other people in the area had been woken up to all the noise. I could hear err I guess it was the men you know in the distance, you could just hear them shouting Madeleine, err I don’t know how far away they were, they could have been down at the beach I have no idea because sound does travel at night and err I mean I, I just err it just seemed so unreal what was going on.
To me this sounds like there was quite a hullabaloo going on, but has Dianne Webster told the truth? If not why would she lie about something like this?
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From Joaquim Baptista's statement:
Later, between 22.00 and 22.30, when the witness was in the kitchen, he was informed by a colleague that in the meantime a client had entered the restaurant shouting and that afterwards the whole English had left in a panic. The witness’s colleague told him that this individual had said that a child had disappeared. A few minutes later the witness noticed great agitation, with many people everywhere searching for the child.
This sounds like frantic activity by the Tapas Group to me, or was the waiter mistaken?
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From Vitor Dos Santos statement:
With regard to the date of the disappearance on 3rd May 2007, he remembers that at 22.00/22.15 he received a phone call from the reception, from receptionist Helder, who told him that John Hill was extremely agitated as a child had disappeared and that the GNR had been contacted but had not arrived yet. He added (the receptionist) that he had phoned the GNR post several times and that he had been told that they would arrive when they could but that they were investigating a theft in Odiaxere. The receptionist asked the witness whether he should contact the PSP, to which the witness replied no as this area belongs to the GNR.
Given the circumstances, the witness thought it best to go to the resort to find out more about the situation.
When he arrived at the scene about 10 to 15 minutes later, he immediately went to the reception where the GNR were present, taking a statement from the girl’s father.
So according to this witness he was categorically told the police had been called "several times" - was he lying or had he been lied to?
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From Salcedas statement:
I saw the man. Who I knew later to be Madeleine’s father, running to the pool and to the children’s play area in the Tapas zone as if looking for someone. It immediately hit me that after talking to the older woman, that the little girl had not been found. I offered to alert the workers at the Milenium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching
More evidence of frantic activity directly after the alarm was raised including an agreement from one of the Tapas group (Gerry) for help to be sought. But - is the waiter telling the truth, or is he mistaken?
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Quote from: G-Unit on Today at 09:32:45 AM
Of course she denies saying it. 'Someone' she said, not 'they'; easy to mistake the two words in the excitement I guess.
I wonder why her friends forgot to mention how they ran back and forth to the Tapas begging people to phone the police? I wonder why none of those at the Tapas mentioned this flow of desperately begging people? I wonder why they ignored them? So many things to wonder about in this case.
So where is the evidence any of the Tapas friends were begging people to call the police ?
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More from Dianne Webster:
To me this sounds like there was quite a hullabaloo going on, but has Dianne Webster told the truth? If not why would she lie about something like this?
DW rog is a contradiction on everything she said in her statement. An absolute disaster. She doesn't seem very helpful.
DW "Dave did come back to the table and say can, can you just go back to the apartment, but all this is very, very, very vague and I know when I left the table I went, I did go into err Kate and Gerry’s err apartment, which was just absolute err just terrible.”
4078 ”What did you see when you got there?”
Reply ”What did I see? Well Kate and Gerry, Gerry was absolutely, absolutely distraught, absolute, you know, I mean I’ve never heard a man make the noises he made, err and Kate, Kate was just err you can’t, you just can’t put into words how they were I mean they were just, I remember I went through into the room where err where Madeleine was sleeping and err and she said you know, somebody, you know, she’s been taken because she said that the shutters and that had been open, the window open. Err the twins were still asleep in the cot and I, with all the noise going on I don’t know how they slept through it which makes me think there was, they must have been err drugged with something.”
4078 ”What could you see of Madeleine’s bed?”
Reply ”Well the, it was neatly turn, what I remember the cover was neatly turned back. I mean her bed was right in the err corner, you went in the door and it was, you’d have to look round the door to err see it, and err it was just neatly turned back and she just wasn’t there.”
4078 ”Do you remember who else was around when you back to the apartment?”
Reply ”I think, well Fiona was there I think and err Rachael, I remember seeing Rachael and Gerry, I just remember Gerry sitting in the chair just absolutely, well roaring is the only word I can describe it as, just absolutely beside himself. The men, the other men I think were, had gone out looking, running around shouting Madeleine, and Fiona, Fiona wanted me to go back and err keep, I mean obviously everybody’s concerned for their own children as well and I think also there’d been things left at the table, like err cameras and Rachael’s jacket and things so I, I err, I think I went back to the table then to pick up err what had been left behind, I’m not sure, I think the monitor was there as well and one of the staff at the restaurant asked me what had happened and I just said one of the children has gone missing.”
4078 ”Do you have any idea what time it was by that point?”
Reply ”No err you see I can’t remember how long I sat at the table before I went up to see what was going on.”
4078 ”Okay, so you’ve been back to the Tapas and you’ve collected bits and pieces that people have left lying around. You mentioned a camera, or cameras, had there been many photos taken that evening?”
Reply ”Err there hadn’t, I don’t think there’d been any taken that evening and I think err I can’t remember who, it was either, it was either Kate or err Rachael, it might have been Kate, who’d brought their camera because they hadn’t taken any photographs err at all in the evening. I think I was the only one that ever took any photographs in the evening and that was about the second night we were there, I just took pictures of everybody sitting round the table but I didn’t get any of he surrounding areas err but because we hadn’t been really sat there that long no pictures were taken.”
Why do the McCanns take their camera if they never used it? They can't even remember bringing a camera in their statements. Was the camera taken because it was unlocked when Matt entered? Jesus wept you would have to question if their passports were in their pockets. That interview is misleading the police because only Kate and the twins were present when she first entered 5A. Not Gerry, Rachael etc.
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Quote from: G-Unit on Today at 09:32:45 AM
Of course she denies saying it. 'Someone' she said, not 'they'; easy to mistake the two words in the excitement I guess.
I wonder why her friends forgot to mention how they ran back and forth to the Tapas begging people to phone the police? I wonder why none of those at the Tapas mentioned this flow of desperately begging people? I wonder why they ignored them? So many things to wonder about in this case.
So where is the evidence any of the Tapas friends were begging people to call the police ?
It would seem that as a collective they were a bit ineffectual at making sure the police were called and effectual at "rummaging" the apartment. (GNR phone records and archiving report.)
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DW rog is a contradiction on everything she said in her statement. An absolute disaster. She doesn't seem very helpful.
DW "Dave did come back to the table and say can, can you just go back to the apartment, but all this is very, very, very vague and I know when I left the table I went, I did go into err Kate and Gerry’s err apartment, which was just absolute err just terrible.”
4078 ”What did you see when you got there?”
Reply ”What did I see? Well Kate and Gerry, Gerry was absolutely, absolutely distraught, absolute, you know, I mean I’ve never heard a man make the noises he made, err and Kate, Kate was just err you can’t, you just can’t put into words how they were I mean they were just, I remember I went through into the room where err where Madeleine was sleeping and err and she said you know, somebody, you know, she’s been taken because she said that the shutters and that had been open, the window open. Err the twins were still asleep in the cot and I, with all the noise going on I don’t know how they slept through it which makes me think there was, they must have been err drugged with something.”
4078 ”What could you see of Madeleine’s bed?”
Reply ”Well the, it was neatly turn, what I remember the cover was neatly turned back. I mean her bed was right in the err corner, you went in the door and it was, you’d have to look round the door to err see it, and err it was just neatly turned back and she just wasn’t there.”
4078 ”Do you remember who else was around when you back to the apartment?”
Reply ”I think, well Fiona was there I think and err Rachael, I remember seeing Rachael and Gerry, I just remember Gerry sitting in the chair just absolutely, well roaring is the only word I can describe it as, just absolutely beside himself. The men, the other men I think were, had gone out looking, running around shouting Madeleine, and Fiona, Fiona wanted me to go back and err keep, I mean obviously everybody’s concerned for their own children as well and I think also there’d been things left at the table, like err cameras and Rachael’s jacket and things so I, I err, I think I went back to the table then to pick up err what had been left behind, I’m not sure, I think the monitor was there as well and one of the staff at the restaurant asked me what had happened and I just said one of the children has gone missing.”
4078 ”Do you have any idea what time it was by that point?”
Reply ”No err you see I can’t remember how long I sat at the table before I went up to see what was going on.”
4078 ”Okay, so you’ve been back to the Tapas and you’ve collected bits and pieces that people have left lying around. You mentioned a camera, or cameras, had there been many photos taken that evening?”
Reply ”Err there hadn’t, I don’t think there’d been any taken that evening and I think err I can’t remember who, it was either, it was either Kate or err Rachael, it might have been Kate, who’d brought their camera because they hadn’t taken any photographs err at all in the evening. I think I was the only one that ever took any photographs in the evening and that was about the second night we were there, I just took pictures of everybody sitting round the table but I didn’t get any of he surrounding areas err but because we hadn’t been really sat there that long no pictures were taken.”
Why do the McCanns take their camera if they never used it? They can't even remember bringing a camera in their statements. Was the camera taken because it was unlocked when Matt entered? Jesus wept you would have to question if their passports were in their pockets. That interview is misleading the police because only Kate and the twins were present when she first entered 5A. Not Gerry, Rachael etc.
All Dianne remembers is that someone had left a camera. It could have been anyone, although presumably not her, unless she'd forgotten having taken one with her.
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**snip
Jane said the first she knew was when she looked out of her window and saw the table at the tapas bar was empty. She opened the door and there was commotion.
She said: "I saw all our friends outside shouting. I opened the door and one, Rachael, shouted at me, 'Madeleine’ s gone!' As soon as she said that the image of that man carrying the child came into my head and I felt physically sick. A feeling of complete horror washed over me."
Minutes later Jane saw Kate. Close to tears, Jane admitted she could not bear to tell her about the man. She said: "At that time it seemed everyone thought Madeleine was hiding.
I knew that if I told her about the man it would shatter that. I was also hoping desperately that I’d been wrong.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id18.html
The commotion was enough to bring Jane Tanner out to discover why it was being made, so imo that makes it clear that there was activity and that it was frantic.
I don't know how or why any sentient human being could imagine it would be otherwise ... it was a child who was missing, not a puppy.
On being told Madeleine was missing the horror of what she had seen swept over Jane Tanner. I think that would be a defining moment in anyone's life.
Whether she went into shock or panicked as a result I neither know or care but at that stage of proceedings I doubt she or anyone else in the party was in a fit state to rationalise what was happening.
The importance of getting it all written down while it was still fresh in their minds was a very important thing to do, I really don't see why they should be excoriated for that, the PJ certainly wanted it done.
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I think you've assembled the available evidence to make a convincing case that the reaction (to discovery of Madeleine's disappearance) was entirely what one might expect and predict in all circumstances, Alfred.
Certainly not the reactions of a group of conniving and scheming conspirators desperate to cover up something sinister of their own making .....
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From Dianne Webster's statement
4078 ”Do you remember who else was around when you back to the apartment?”
Reply ”I think, well Fiona was there I think and err Rachael, I remember seeing Rachael and Gerry, I just remember Gerry sitting in the chair just absolutely, well roaring is the only word I can describe it as, just absolutely beside himself. The men, the other men I think were, had gone out looking, running around shouting Madeleine,
So is she lying, or was this after they'd all sat down calmly and scribbled out the timeline?
Is a total contradiction on her May statement. When she got to the apartment only minutes after the alarm Kate was alone and she went outside to try and lift the shutters. The second time she visited the apartment Gerry and Fiona were present.
"The question being asked about the people that were inside the apartment of McCANN at that time, the witness said that the McCANN couple were present (although on the first occasion she had no recollection of having seen GERRY), and FIONA, not remembering any other people that were there."
"In that apartment she found that KATE was completely in panic, in "state of shock ".
- Because she was asked, she states that she entered the apartment by the sliding glass door of the patio at the back, which gives access to the lounge. Then she went to the children's bedroom, noting that there she found KATE and the twin siblings of MADELEINE
- She added that she did not remember too much detail about the scenario that she found in that bedroom, other that what she said above. However, she states that KATE had repeatedly commented that, on arriving at the bedroom, she had found the
window of the room, with its shutter, both open. Yet, she [DW] did not notice, while at the entrance to the room, if the window was or was not open.
- However, she wants to stress that immediately afterwards, she went outside the apartment in order to ascertain whether she would be able to raise the shutters by hand from the outside, and found it was impossible for her. Consequently she infers that at the time of her arrival at the apartment the window would have been closed."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm
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All Dianne remembers is that someone had left a camera. It could have been anyone, although presumably not her, unless she'd forgotten having taken one with her.
Adds that that night, and after the occurrence of the facts under investigation, have been in the the apartment on two separate occasions. At the time described above she remained about 10 minutes in the apartment. After this time she returned to the restaurant to get her handbag as well as the camera of the couple McCANN and "baby monitor" of her daughter, and was soon back again in the apartment.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm
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Adds that that night, and after the occurrence of the facts under investigation, have been in the the apartment on two separate occasions. At the time described above she remained about 10 minutes in the apartment. After this time she returned to the restaurant to get her handbag as well as the camera of the couple McCANN and "baby monitor" of her daughter, and was soon back again in the apartment.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm
Hasn't it dawned on you that comparing the verbatim statements of the rogatory interviews (taken several months after the event) with the statements of Portuguese police, translated innumerable times, and taken in reported, not verbatim, form, is perhaps not the best basis on which to assess (alleged) 'contradictions' (in statements)?
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Back it up? Anyone can say the statement is incorrectly translated but that proves nothing unless you can back it up with evidence.
The camera is seen on the table in crime scene pics.
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Is a total contradiction on her May statement. When she got to the apartment only minutes after the alarm Kate was alone and she went outside to try and lift the shutters. The second time she visited the apartment Gerry and Fiona were present.
"The question being asked about the people that were inside the apartment of McCANN at that time, the witness said that the McCANN couple were present (although on the first occasion she had no recollection of having seen GERRY), and FIONA, not remembering any other people that were there."
"In that apartment she found that KATE was completely in panic, in "state of shock ".
- Because she was asked, she states that she entered the apartment by the sliding glass door of the patio at the back, which gives access to the lounge. Then she went to the children's bedroom, noting that there she found KATE and the twin siblings of MADELEINE
- She added that she did not remember too much detail about the scenario that she found in that bedroom, other that what she said above. However, she states that KATE had repeatedly commented that, on arriving at the bedroom, she had found the
window of the room, with its shutter, both open. Yet, she [DW] did not notice, while at the entrance to the room, if the window was or was not open.
- However, she wants to stress that immediately afterwards, she went outside the apartment in order to ascertain whether she would be able to raise the shutters by hand from the outside, and found it was impossible for her. Consequently she infers that at the time of her arrival at the apartment the window would have been closed."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm
So, is it your view that there was no frantic activity in the aftermath of the alarm being raised?
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So, is it your view that there was no frantic activity in the aftermath of the alarm being raised?
I believe there was frantic activity. The men were out searching, Dianne was still at the table and the women first went to check on the children. Jane was in her apartment. When Dianne left the table and went to 5A only Kate and the twins were present.
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This claim has been made today on this forum. Is it true? Let's examine the facts.
Who made the claim and could you kindly quote the post? Thanks. Because from what I have read briefly yesterday the issue was about whether the group were frantically begging people at the tapas area to call the police.....containing the insinuation no one would helpin this regard???? Not that there was no frantic activity full stop. My very deepest apologies if I am wrong in my understandng
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Hasn't it dawned on you that comparing the verbatim statements of the rogatory interviews (taken several months after the event) with the statements of Portuguese police, translated innumerable times, and taken in reported, not verbatim, form, is perhaps not the best basis on which to assess (alleged) 'contradictions' (in statements)?
Steady on old chap...I think the number you are looking for is two and two by necessity
Ask question in portuguese
Translated into english (=one)
Answer given and translated back into portuguese (=two)
innumerable
ɪˈnjuːm(ə)rəb(ə)l/
adjective
too many to be counted (often used hyperbolically).
"innumerable flags of all colours"
synonyms: countless, numerous, very many, manifold, multitudinous, multifarious, untold, incalculable, numberless, unnumbered, beyond number; a great number of, incalculable numbers of, endless numbers of, a multitude of, a multiplicity of, a raft of, more than one can count, too many to be counted; informalumpteen, masses of, oodles of, no end of, loads of, stacks of, heaps of, bags of, zillions of; informala slew of, a whole bunch of, gazillions of, bazillions of; informallank; literarymyriad, legion, divers; rareinnumerous, unnumberable
"she served on innumerable committees"
Eta
But for all intents and purposes, seeing as it was the same translator in any given interview, the real answer is one
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Steady on old chap...I think the number you are looking for is two and two by necessity
Ask question in portuguese
Translated into english (=one)
Answer given and translated back into portuguese (=two)
innumerable
ɪˈnjuːm(ə)rəb(ə)l/
adjective
too many to be counted (often used hyperbolically).
"innumerable flags of all colours"
synonyms: countless, numerous, very many, manifold, multitudinous, multifarious, untold, incalculable, numberless, unnumbered, beyond number; a great number of, incalculable numbers of, endless numbers of, a multitude of, a multiplicity of, a raft of, more than one can count, too many to be counted; informalumpteen, masses of, oodles of, no end of, loads of, stacks of, heaps of, bags of, zillions of; informala slew of, a whole bunch of, gazillions of, bazillions of; informallank; literarymyriad, legion, divers; rareinnumerous, unnumberable
"she served on innumerable committees"
I concede the hyperbole.
But I think my point remains valid ....
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Steady on old chap...I think the number you are looking for is two and two by necessity
Ask question in portuguese
Translated into english (=one)
Answer given and translated back into portuguese (=two)
innumerable
ɪˈnjuːm(ə)rəb(ə)l/
adjective
too many to be counted (often used hyperbolically).
"innumerable flags of all colours"
synonyms: countless, numerous, very many, manifold, multitudinous, multifarious, untold, incalculable, numberless, unnumbered, beyond number; a great number of, incalculable numbers of, endless numbers of, a multitude of, a multiplicity of, a raft of, more than one can count, too many to be counted; informalumpteen, masses of, oodles of, no end of, loads of, stacks of, heaps of, bags of, zillions of; informala slew of, a whole bunch of, gazillions of, bazillions of; informallank; literarymyriad, legion, divers; rareinnumerous, unnumberable
"she served on innumerable committees"
Eta
But for all intents and purposes, seeing as it was the same translator in any given interview, the real answer is one
Hmmm. There are some statements in the files that were originally in English (not available in the files), were translated into Portuguese (which are in the files), then retranslated by the volunteers back into English.
In those cases, there is ample room for confusion.
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It remains speculation/conjecture/whatever you want to call it. Not fact.Unless either of you have innumerable concrete examples of inconsistencies in statements proven to be a result of poor translation.
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It remains speculation/conjecture/whatever you want to call it. Not fact.Unless either of you have innumerable concrete examples of inconsistencies in statements proven to be a result of poor translation.
this is was taken from Gerrys statement..
Concerning the child's personality, she was extrovert, very active, talkative, smart and related to other children with great ease. But she would never go with a stranger.
and this from kate's..
Concerning the child's personality, she was extrovert, very active, talkative, smart and related to other children with great ease. But she would never go with a stranger.
seeing as neither would use the phrase...relate to other children with great ease...obviously the same translator giving their own interpretation of what was said
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It remains speculation/conjecture/whatever you want to call it. Not fact.Unless either of you have innumerable concrete examples of inconsistencies in statements proven to be a result of poor translation.
There was thread devoted to it at one time.
As I recall the thread came up empty handed wrt examples.
6&%5%
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There was thread devoted to it at one time.
As I recall the thread came up empty handed wrt examples.
6&%5%
how can we question the translation of gerry's statement when we have never seen it...think about it
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There was thread devoted to it at one time.
As I recall the thread came up empty handed wrt examples.
6&%5%
Very funny. I've tried to point out verifiable or likely translation errors (ambiguities), irrespective of who was arguing.
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There was thread devoted to it at one time.
As I recall the thread came up empty handed wrt examples.
6&%5%
Not surprised there
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Very funny. I've tried to point out verifiable or likely translation errors (ambiguities), irrespective of who was arguing.
Which are the verifiable errors related to inconsistencies/discrepancies? "Likely" is as relevant as...well...anything that is likely...in the realm of speculation...eta it really is not helpful to add to the chaos with more speculation IMO that creates more chaos and confusion and Im sure you wuldnt want that
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this is was taken from Gerrys statement..
Concerning the child's personality, she was extrovert, very active, talkative, smart and related to other children with great ease. But she would never go with a stranger.
and this from kate's..
Concerning the child's personality, she was extrovert, very active, talkative, smart and related to other children with great ease. But she would never go with a stranger.
seeing as neither would use the phrase...relate to other children with great ease...obviously the same translator giving their own interpretation of what was said
A) who said the mccanns would never use that phrase, nothng wring with it, it means sociable and no problems with other kids
B) you arent keeping up...the discussion is about discrepancies
C) nothing wrong with a translator putting down their interpretation, thats what they are employed to do
D) it is obvious to me the translator was putting the crux down as the wirds are exactly the same, but thats all that matters
anythng else?
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this is was taken from Gerrys statement..
Concerning the child's personality, she was extrovert, very active, talkative, smart and related to other children with great ease. But she would never go with a stranger.
and this from kate's..
Concerning the child's personality, she was extrovert, very active, talkative, smart and related to other children with great ease. But she would never go with a stranger.
seeing as neither would use the phrase...relate to other children with great ease...obviously the same translator giving their own interpretation of what was said
In that instance, I think that the meaning is clear. "Related to other children with great ease" in the original English was quite likely to have been "got on really well with other children".
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Which are the verifiable errors related to inconsistencies/discrepancies? "Likely" is as relevant as...well...anything that is likely...in the realm of speculation...eta it really is not helpful to add to the chaos with more speculation IMO that creates more chaos and confusion and Im sure you wuldnt want that
Erm... If you remember, some time ago there was an argument about whether the clothes had been taken out in one location before being taken out in the gym. I pointed out that there was an ambiguity as to whether Amaral had actually stated that, as the original Portuguese was phrased in the conditional which could have meant that they were supposed to have been taken out in the first location, but may not have been.
For example.
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Erm... If you remember, some time ago there was an argument about whether the clothes had been taken out in one location before being taken out in the gym. I pointed out that there was an ambiguity as to whether Amaral had actually stated that, as the original Portuguese was phrased in the conditional which could have meant that they were supposed to have been taken out in the first location, but may not have been.
For example.
so? even if you had it right which i doubt, that has nothng to do with problematic witness statements but more to do with ferrymans conspiracy theories about mr grime
Ps pls provide the cite where amaral said that
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From Joaquim Baptista's statement:
Later, between 22.00 and 22.30, when the witness was in the kitchen, he was informed by a colleague that in the meantime a client had entered the restaurant shouting and that afterwards the whole English had left in a panic. The witness’s colleague told him that this individual had said that a child had disappeared. A few minutes later the witness noticed great agitation, with many people everywhere searching for the child.
This sounds like frantic activity by the Tapas Group to me, or was the waiter mistaken?
Many people? There were four/five of the group who searched. Fiona didn't go back into the Tapas, nor did Russell and Matthew, David and Gerry reportedly did. Not many of them, then. I think the waiter saw the beginnings of the MW child search procedure.
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More from Dianne Webster:
To me this sounds like there was quite a hullabaloo going on, but has Dianne Webster told the truth? If not why would she lie about something like this?
That would be the MW searchers she heard.
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From Vitor Dos Santos statement:
With regard to the date of the disappearance on 3rd May 2007, he remembers that at 22.00/22.15 he received a phone call from the reception, from receptionist Helder, who told him that John Hill was extremely agitated as a child had disappeared and that the GNR had been contacted but had not arrived yet. He added (the receptionist) that he had phoned the GNR post several times and that he had been told that they would arrive when they could but that they were investigating a theft in Odiaxere. The receptionist asked the witness whether he should contact the PSP, to which the witness replied no as this area belongs to the GNR.
Given the circumstances, the witness thought it best to go to the resort to find out more about the situation.
When he arrived at the scene about 10 to 15 minutes later, he immediately went to the reception where the GNR were present, taking a statement from the girl’s father.
So according to this witness he was categorically told the police had been called "several times" - was he lying or had he been lied to?
1. He did not get a call from Helder at all that night.
2. If Helder contacted him without using the main phone line at the time quoted John Hill hadn't arrived at the Ocean Club yet.
3. the first call to the police was at 10.41pm.
4. The GNR arrived at around 11pm.
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A) who said the mccanns would never use that phrase, nothng wring with it, it means sociable and no problems with other kids
B) you arent keeping up...the discussion is about discrepancies
C) nothing wrong with a translator putting down their interpretation, thats what they are employed to do
D) it is obvious to me the translator was putting the crux down as the wirds are exactly the same, but thats all that matters
anythng else?
yes...as you have admitted...these are the word of the intepterer and not the mccanns...and you bizarrely claim it is the interpreters job to put her own interpretation on the statements
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1. He did not get a call from Helder at all that night.
2. If Helder contacted him without using the main phone line at the time quoted John Hill hadn't arrived at the Ocean Club yet.
3. the first call to the police was at 10.41pm.
4. The GNR arrived at around 11pm.
So he's lying then?
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Many people? There were four/five of the group who searched. Fiona didn't go back into the Tapas, nor did Russell and Matthew, David and Gerry reportedly did. Not many of them, then. I think the waiter saw the beginnings of the MW child search procedure.
So there was no frantic activity by the Tapas group that night?
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That would be the MW searchers she heard.
but definitely not the Tapas group?
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There was no frantic activity by the Tapas Group after the alarm was raised. There was frantic activity by Matthew, Russell and David, according to their statements.
Fiona initially went round the block then stayed in the apartment with Kate.
Gerry was seen searching the Tapas area by a waiter. By 10.15-10.20 he was back in the apartment according to Dianne. He was there at 10.30 according to Mrs Fenn.
John Hill arrived at 10.30pm. After a while he went to the main reception to check that the police had been called. Fifteen minutes later he went to the apartment (about five minutes to 11 then). Gerry was there.
Rachael said that on arrival at the apartment after the alarm was raised Kate, Gerry, Fiona and David went in. She, Matthew and Russell stayed at the bottom of the steps. Russell and Matthew searched the garden, then she and Matthew went to check on Grace. Then he went to reception to call the police and Russell and David went off to search the roads. Around 10.30pm she and Gerry checked the upper floors of the block.
On the night of the disappearance he always saw the McCanns together in the apartment they were occupying at the time, with the exception of an episode when Gerry went to the main 24 hour reception with the purpose of speaking to a GNR officer, he is not sure at what time this occurred, but it was certainly before 24.00.
The GNR arrived at 11pm and Gerry stayed in the apartment after that.
It seems that any frantic activity was limited to Matthew, Russell and David, with Gerry taking part from 10.05 to 10.15 and possibly from 10.35 to 10.55.
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So there we have it. There was no frantic activity by the Tapas Group after the alarm was raised. With the exception of 4 of them (and possibly Gerry) they were all calm, laid back, cool as cucumbers.
Glad we got that sorted out then!
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So there we have it. There was no frantic activity by the Tapas Group after the alarm was raised. With the exception of 4 of them (and possibly Gerry) they were all calm, laid back, cool as cucumbers.
Glad we got that sorted out then!
Wouldn't you be frantic if a child belonging to one of your friends disappeared while you were all on holiday together and you had children too who could be at risk?
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Wouldn't you be frantic if a child belonging to one of your friends disappeared while you were all on holiday together and you had children too who could be at risk?
Alfie was thinking all of them must be involved which is unlikely so there would be blind panic which was useful for the perps. Only one was seen with a child after they split up so possibly none knew what had been planned in advance.
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Wouldn't you be frantic if a child belonging to one of your friends disappeared while you were all on holiday together and you had children too who could be at risk?
YEs I would, so what do you reckon? Are the Tapas Group all unnatural or involved in the cover up?
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So there we have it. There was no frantic activity by the Tapas Group after the alarm was raised. With the exception of 4 of them (and possibly Gerry) they were all calm, laid back, cool as cucumbers.
Glad we got that sorted out then!
They may all have been frantic but not all of them were active. Three of them were active from 10.05 onwards. Kate McCann says the four men split into pairs and searched. None of the men confirmed this. Gerry McCann may have been active on and off, but was frequently in the apartment.
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Many people? There were four/five of the group who searched. Fiona didn't go back into the Tapas, nor did Russell and Matthew, David and Gerry reportedly did. Not many of them, then. I think the waiter saw the beginnings of the MW child search procedure.
He served Russell and shortly thereafter, he was alerted to strange movements in the restaurant perimeters. He refers to the movements of two men from said group, David Payne and Matthew, who appeared to be searching the gardens the areas near the bar. The witness went to the esplanade zone and saw that the table that had previously been occupied by nine adults was now occupied only by the older woman, called Dianne Webster. It was also at this time that he saw that Russell's food was only half eaten and that the others had all finished their dinner.
David Payne and Matthew were nervously searching the area.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm
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Who made the claim and could you kindly quote the post? Thanks. Because from what I have read briefly yesterday the issue was about whether the group were frantically begging people at the tapas area to call the police.....containing the insinuation no one would helpin this regard???? Not that there was no frantic activity full stop. My very deepest apologies if I am wrong in my understandng
So has Alfie started this thread on a false premise?
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There was no frantic activity by the Tapas Group after the alarm was raised. There was frantic activity by Matthew, Russell and David, according to their statements.
Fiona initially went round the block then stayed in the apartment with Kate.
Gerry was seen searching the Tapas area by a waiter. By
10.15-10.20 he was back in the apartment according to Dianne. He was there at 10.30 according to Mrs Fenn.
John Hill arrived at 10.30pm. After a while he went to the main reception to check that the police had been called. Fifteen minutes later he went to the apartment (about five minutes to 11 then). Gerry was there.
Rachael said that on arrival at the apartment after the alarm was raised Kate, Gerry, Fiona and David went in. She, Matthew and Russell stayed at the bottom of the steps. Russell and Matthew searched the garden, then she and Matthew went to check on Grace. Then he went to reception to call the police and Russell and David went off to search the roads. Around 10.30pm she and Gerry checked the upper floors of the block.
On the night of the disappearance he always saw the McCanns together in the apartment they were occupying at the time, with the exception of an episode when Gerry went to the main 24 hour reception with the purpose of speaking to a GNR officer, he is not sure at what time this occurred, but it was certainly before 24.00.
The GNR arrived at 11pm and Gerry stayed in the apartment after that.
It seems that any frantic activity was limited to Matthew, Russell and David, with Gerry taking part from 10.05 to
10.15 and possibly from 10.35 to 10.55.
Good post G-Unit 8((()*/
The truth seems to be that there was initial frantic activity by the male members of the tapas group while the womenfolk primarily made sure their own children were safe and secure.
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If you read the rogs by David, Russ and Matt you will find Gerry is not mentioned after the initial split up. He has disappeared...
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So has Alfie started this thread on a false premise?
We've already had leading "sceptic" confirm to us that there was no frantic activity that night - what false premise would that be then?
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Good post G-Unit 8((()*/
The truth seems to be that there was initial frantic activity by the male members of the tapas group while the womenfolk primarily made sure their own children were safe and secure.
Gosh, how suspicious when you put it like that!
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If you read the rogs by David, Russ and Matt you will find Gerry is not mentioned after the initial split up. He has disappeared...
No you don't.
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We've already had leading "sceptic" confirm to us that there was no frantic activity that night - what false premise would that be then?
The "There was no frantic activity by the Tapas Group after the alarm was raised" one.
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The "There was no frantic activity by the Tapas Group after the alarm was raised" one.
well was there or wasn't there?
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If you read the rogs by David, Russ and Matt you will find Gerry is not mentioned after the initial split up. He has disappeared...
So has my reply!! which basically said:
IIRC according to your theory - it's at this stage that he rushes off to do the deed, in the full knowledge that the police won't be arriving until 11.00p.m. How he knew that in advance - has yet to be explained. Also waiting to be explained is where and when he changed his clothes from blue jeans, polar top and tennis shoes - to dark coat/top, gold trousers and ordinary shoes - and where and when he changed back into his original clothes/shoes. Any ideas?
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So has my reply!! which basically said:
IIRC according to your theory - it's at this stage that he rushes off to do the deed, in the full knowledge that the police won't be arriving until 11.00p.m. How he knew that in advance - has yet to be explained. Also waiting to be explained is where and when he changed his clothes from blue jeans, polar top and tennis shoes - to dark coat/top, gold trousers and ordinary shoes - and where and when he changed back into his original clothes/shoes. Any ideas?
I can only find one reference to clothing by an independent witness;
Asked about the way the members of the group were dressed up in that night, she only remembers that Fiona was wearing a green blouse, that Gerry was wearing a dark shirt and the husband of Fiona wearing clear pants, beige she thinks.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm
Here are some beige trousers I think.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_22.jpg)
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I can only find one reference to clothing by an independent witness;
Asked about the way the members of the group were dressed up in that night, she only remembers that Fiona was wearing a green blouse, that Gerry was wearing a dark shirt and the husband of Fiona wearing clear pants, beige she thinks.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm
Here are some beige trousers I think.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_22.jpg)
What has the fact that the witness thought Dr. Payne was wearing beige trousers got to do with Gerry? I don't get it.
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What has the fact that the witness thought Dr. Payne was wearing beige trousers got to do with Gerry? I don't get it.
Nothing. It was Gerry's dark shirt I put in bold; no polar fleece in evidence. He also had a pair of beige trousers on the bed.
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Nothing. It was Gerry's dark shirt I put in bold; no polar fleece in evidence. He also had a pair of beige trousers on the bed.
I thought it had long ago been sorted that that was Kate's beige cardigan on the bed?
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Nothing. It was Gerry's dark shirt I put in bold; no polar fleece in evidence. He also had a pair of beige trousers on the bed.
Ahh I see it all now - it was your reference to Gerry's beige trousers on the bed which threw me.
IIRC the polar top Gerry said he was wearing was brown. (from memory so I could be wrong on that). But if that is correct then brown comes in varying shades from light to very dark. I don't see anything 'sinister' in what the witness thought he was wearing. If she had said he was wearing a white shirt or a patterned shirt - it would be a different matter.
Are those definitely trousers on the bed? It could be my eyes - but is that a newspaper on top of them - and what is that other article lying beside them? Just curious.
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(snip)... wearing a dark shirt....(snip)
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm
"camisa" can mean shirt or jacket.
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Gerry wore a fleece on 4th, with blue jeans. Not very dark;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avf4jHNuzPU
He had beige trousers;
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mccann+pics+may+2007&rlz=1C1DSGL_enGB457GB457&biw=1030&bih=546&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj4-4Sjk6_LAhVDxRQKHSc3CT4QsAQIKA#imgrc=cxYGwN7jsPsazM%3A
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Would those be the beige trousers the dogs didn't alert to?
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Would those be the beige trousers the dogs didn't alert to?
You would think they would be positively reeking with cadaverscent - if they had just been in close contact with a dead body.
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You would think they would be positively reeking with cadaverscent - if they had just been in close contact with a dead body.
As would all of Gerry's clothes, assuming he kept his clothes folded and hanging up together.
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You would think they would be positively reeking with cadaverscent - if they had just been in close contact with a dead body.
On what do you base that statement ?
You do realize there are several variables to deal with as regards 'reeking' ?
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As would all of Gerry's clothes, assuming he kept his clothes folded and hanging up together.
Really ?
You're making assumptions. &%+((£
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Really ?
You're making assumptions. &%+((£
What assumptions am I making?
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On what do you base that statement ?
You do realize there are several variables to deal with as regards 'reeking' ?
we can base that statrment on grime's statement that cross contamination is immediate...quite simple
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How is it possible that Gerry's clothes did not all reek of cadaver scent, seeing as how he has been pictured wearing the actual clothes he allegedly wore the night he went on a little occultation outing?
Someone explain, like Stephen, who is more of an expert on this than me.
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How is it possible that Gerry's clothes did not all reek of cadaver scent, seeing as how he has been pictured wearing the actual clothes he allegedly wore the night he went on a little occultation outing?
Someone explain, like Stephen, who is more of an expert on this than me.
Well for a start, how long after a death did contact take place with a body, i.e. the extent of decomposition ?
Did contact take place just with the surface of the body and/or with products of decomposition from within ?
etc.
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Well for a start, how long after a death did contact take place with a body, i.e. the extent of decomposition ?
Did contact take place just with the surface of the body and/or with products of decomposition from within ?
etc.
Erm, I thought you were firmly of the view that the doggies alerted to the corpse of Madeleine McCann in Apt 5a? Have I got that wrong? If so, then fine nothing more to add. If I am right however, do say and we can proceed from there....
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Well for a start, how long after a death did contact take place with a body, i.e. the extent of decomposition ?
Did contact take place just with the surface of the body and/or with products of decomposition from within ?
etc.
If the dogs alerted in the apartment then decomposition had begun before maddie was removed
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If the dogs alerted in the apartment then decomposition had begun before maddie was removed
Doesn't decomposition commence immediately after death?
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Doesn't decomposition commence immediately after death?
I think most understand what I mean
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If the dogs alerted in the apartment then decomposition had begun before maddie was removed
The best available study says minimum 85 minutes
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The best available study says minimum 85 minutes
So in order for the dogs to have alerted correctly Madeleine must have been dead lets say 90 minutes. 90 minutes prior to 10pm = dead before the McCanns left the apartment. So when Smithman moved her body his clothes would have been covered in cadaver scent, clothes which we are told are visible on Gerry in the days after the disappearance. So, why did the dogs not alert to them, or any of Gerry's other clothes which would almost certainly have come into contact with them?
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So in order for the dogs to have alerted correctly Madeleine must have been dead lets say 90 minutes. 90 minutes prior to 10pm = dead before the McCanns left the apartment. So when Smithman moved her body his clothes would have been covered in cadaver scent, clothes which we are told are visible on Gerry in the days after the disappearance. So, why did the dogs not alert to them, or any of Gerry's other clothes which would almost certainly have come into contact with them?
the calculation is to add at least 85 onto 21:05 = 22:30 at the earliest
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So in order for the dogs to have alerted correctly Madeleine must have been dead lets say 90 minutes. 90 minutes prior to 10pm = dead before the McCanns left the apartment. So when Smithman moved her body his clothes would have been covered in cadaver scent, clothes which we are told are visible on Gerry in the days after the disappearance. So, why did the dogs not alert to them, or any of Gerry's other clothes which would almost certainly have come into contact with them?
Have you got any images of Gerry wearing a black jacket like the one seen on the sofa? I didn't see Eddie sniff one.
(http://i0.wp.com/radaronline.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/madeleine-mccann-4.jpg?fit=960%2C9999)
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Have you got any images of Gerry wearing a black jacket like the one seen on the sofa? I didn't see Eddie sniff one.
(http://i0.wp.com/radaronline.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/madeleine-mccann-4.jpg?fit=960%2C9999)
If that black jacket(?) had just been in close contact with a dead body - then that settee would have been strongly contaminated with cadaverscent imo. But IIRC Eddie showed no interest whatsoever in it.
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Have you got any images of Gerry wearing a black jacket like the one seen on the sofa? I didn't see Eddie sniff one.
(http://i0.wp.com/radaronline.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/madeleine-mccann-4.jpg?fit=960%2C9999)
nope. Next question?