UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Opal on July 21, 2016, 08:47:19 PM
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Did the conversation about fostering really take place on the evening of the murders?
All we have is JB’s word that it did.
We know that the twins had received Day Foster Care once before.
We know that the twins were living with Colin Caffell at the time of the murders.
The twins were 6 years old, so at Primary School all day. Would they therefore need Day/Foster Care? JB says…June and Nevill felt Sheila wasn’t capable of looking after the twins plus June felt Colin Caffell wanted to gain complete custody to the twins therefore they wouldn’t see the twins so much. Surely if the twins were at school all week, they wouldn’t see so much of them anyway, only weekends and holidays as most grandparents do.
I believe there was an argument on the evening before the murders, but this was between NB and his son JB. Not between NB and SC
BW says NB was short with her when she rang between 9.30. & 10.00 pm.
JB was heard roaring off up Pages lane in his car by neighbours just after 9.30 pm
JB left the farm before collecting the last of the rape seed from the field. JB says he asked his father to collect it. I don’t believe he did, I think he just walked out after a row. This being the reason NB was angry or short with BW.(Page 412 Appendix 1 CAL)
In all events NB was seen by a farm worker Len Foakes around 10.15 pm collecting the rape seed from the field.
Could the argument have been about the family’s offer of work for Sheila at Osea Road ? This was suggested at a meeting at Vaulty House on 18th July 1985. (Robert Boutflour CAL Ann Eaten statement tells of a blazing row between JB and NB at this meeting ( just 3 weeks before the murders) but she can’t remember what it was about. (PAGE 137 CAL) SC’s birthday is also on 18th July. .
‘One of the last lines Sheila wrote in her diary on the 6th August 1985 read:
‘I didn’t mean to be horrible to Jeremy’. Did the argument in Whitehouse Farm that night centre around Sheila’s offer of work at Osea Road? Was this also the reason Sheila wrote in her diary that day that she didn’t mean to be horrible to JB.
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Did the conversation about fostering really take place on the evening of the murders?
All we have is JB’s word that it did.
We know that the twins had received Day Foster Care once before.
We know that the twins were living with Colin Caffell at the time of the murders.
The twins were 6 years old, so at Primary School all day. Would they therefore need Day/Foster Care? JB says…June and Nevill felt Sheila wasn’t capable of looking after the twins plus June felt Colin Caffell wanted to gain complete custody to the twins therefore they wouldn’t see the twins so much. Surely if the twins were at school all week, they wouldn’t see so much of them anyway, only weekends and holidays as most grandparents do.
I believe there was an argument on the evening before the murders, but this was between NB and his son JB. Not between NB and SC
BW says NB was short with her when she rang between 9.30. & 10.00 pm.
JB was heard roaring off up Pages lane in his car by neighbours just after 9.30 pm
JB left the farm before collecting the last of the rape seed from the field. JB says he asked his father to collect it. I don’t believe he did, I think he just walked out after a row. This being the reason NB was angry or short with BW.(Page 412 Appendix 1 CAL)
In all events NB was seen by a farm worker Len Foakes around 10.15 pm collecting the rape seed from the field.
Could the argument have been about the family’s offer of work for Sheila at Osea Road ? This was suggested at a meeting at Vaulty House on 18th July 1985. (Robert Boutflour CAL Ann Eaten statement tells of a blazing row between JB and NB at this meeting ( just 3 weeks before the murders) but she can’t remember what it was about. (PAGE 137 CAL) SC’s birthday is also on 18th July. .
‘One of the last lines Sheila wrote in her diary on the 6th August 1985 read:
‘I didn’t mean to be horrible to Jeremy’. Did the argument in Whitehouse Farm that night centre around Sheila’s offer of work at Osea Road? Was this also the reason Sheila wrote in her diary that day that she didn’t mean to be horrible to JB.
I have been saying this for years. It doesn't make sense that he would leave the last load, not unless they 'both' agreed it was late and that they could complete the job in the morning. However, that didn't happen and Nevill was left to do the work himself. Nevill obviously didn't tell June that they had argued, because she didn't mention it to Pam, but I guess he thought she had enough on her plate with Sheila.
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Also Caroline, I read somewhere that both Nevill and JB were seen outside of Whitehouse Farm by a farm worker around this time.... will try and find it again..did they argue outside? JM said in her statement in September 1985 that when she gave her first statement she was worried that she had said something she shouldn't have. JM told JB this, and JB's words were .... according to JM....."don't worry about it, the trick is to tell the truth to a certain extent, that's why I only told you certain things". So, JB could have been telling the truth about an argument at the farm that night...BUT... it wasn't about SC's twins!
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Also Caroline, I read somewhere that both Nevill and JB were seen outside of Whitehouse Farm by a farm worker around this time.... will try and find it again..did they argue outside? JM said in her statement in September 1985 that when she gave her first statement she was worried that she had said something she shouldn't have. JM told JB this, and JB's words were .... according to JM....."don't worry about it, the trick is to tell the truth to a certain extent, that's why I only told you certain things". So, JB could have been telling the truth about an argument at the farm that night...BUT... it wasn't about SC's twins!
yes opal like caroline i also agree.it was between jb and nb.but jb is so cunning he spun it in the tale hoping to persuade people.that it is a good enough reason for sheila to kill the lot
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Chapter 19 CAL Page 156
8.00 pm Farm Worker Philip Wilson began collecting trailers
Jeremy returned to the farmhouse between 8 pm and 9 pm, his parents and Sheila were having supper.
Page 156 CAL Nevill must have left the kitchen soon after his son. Philip Wilson saw NB ‘about 9 pm’ in the yard near the Bullock shed he looked tired and asked him to go and collect a trailer from Gardner’s Farm Goldhanger. JB claims he saw rabbits by potato shed whilst checking the barn was running so loaded the rifle and went out to look for them. The bullock shed, the potato shed and Barn are close by each other. JB did try to alter the time in 2002 from around 9.00pm to early evening, this would then not have put both JB and NB in the yard together!
On returning to farmhouse after looking for rabbits JB removed the magazine then ejected the round that was in the breech, resting the rifle up against the wall in hallway. JB didn’t speak to family ( is this because JB and NB had words in the yard) who were all in kitchen saying this was because he was in a hurry to take a trailer to the combine….Or was it because he had just had words with his father in the yard? If JB took the trailer down to the combine at this time, it was also at this time he told Len Foakes ‘The old man will come down to collect the last lot’. According to JB he returned to the farmhouse again after taking the trailer to the combine, he asks his father to collect the last trailer full. I don’t think JB went back into the Farm that evening! This could also be the reason JB says he can’t remember if the rifle was still in the hallway, but he is heard roaring off up Pages Lane in his car. Whatever happened NB wasn't happy when BW rang around 9.30 pm, JM also states when JB rang her he sounded pissed off!
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Did the conversation about fostering really take place on the evening of the murders?
All we have is JB’s word that it did.
We know that the twins had received Day Foster Care once before.
We know that the twins were living with Colin Caffell at the time of the murders.
The twins were 6 years old, so at Primary School all day. Would they therefore need Day/Foster Care? JB says…June and Nevill felt Sheila wasn’t capable of looking after the twins plus June felt Colin Caffell wanted to gain complete custody to the twins therefore they wouldn’t see the twins so much. Surely if the twins were at school all week, they wouldn’t see so much of them anyway, only weekends and holidays as most grandparents do.
I believe there was an argument on the evening before the murders, but this was between NB and his son JB. Not between NB and SC
BW says NB was short with her when she rang between 9.30. & 10.00 pm.
JB was heard roaring off up Pages lane in his car by neighbours just after 9.30 pm
JB left the farm before collecting the last of the rape seed from the field. JB says he asked his father to collect it. I don’t believe he did, I think he just walked out after a row. This being the reason NB was angry or short with BW.(Page 412 Appendix 1 CAL)
In all events NB was seen by a farm worker Len Foakes around 10.15 pm collecting the rape seed from the field.
Could the argument have been about the family’s offer of work for Sheila at Osea Road ? This was suggested at a meeting at Vaulty House on 18th July 1985. (Robert Boutflour CAL Ann Eaten statement tells of a blazing row between JB and NB at this meeting ( just 3 weeks before the murders) but she can’t remember what it was about. (PAGE 137 CAL) SC’s birthday is also on 18th July. .
‘One of the last lines Sheila wrote in her diary on the 6th August 1985 read:
‘I didn’t mean to be horrible to Jeremy’. Did the argument in Whitehouse Farm that night centre around Sheila’s offer of work at Osea Road? Was this also the reason Sheila wrote in her diary that day that she didn’t mean to be horrible to JB.
Yes I think it's highly likely fostering was mentioned on the basis that a few weeks before the tragedy June discussed with CC's mother (Mrs Doris Brencher):
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7211.msg330226#msg330226
I think the situation concerning the long-term welfare of the twins had reached a crisis point:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7211.msg330196#msg330196
I think perhaps this thread needs separating into two: welfare of the twins and JB's last movements at WHF prior to his claim of leaving for Goldhanger.
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From the attachments you posted on June's conversation with CC's mother regarding the future welfare of the twins, it appears that June was worried that the twins would be fostered, and she was against this. CC's mother seems to have put June's mind at rest over this.
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Yes I think it's highly likely fostering was mentioned on the basis that a few weeks before the tragedy June discussed with CC's mother (Mrs Doris Brencher):
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7211.msg330226#msg330226
I think the situation concerning the long-term welfare of the twins had reached a crisis point:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7211.msg330196#msg330196
I think perhaps this thread needs separating into two: welfare of the twins and JB's last movements at WHF prior to his claim of leaving for Goldhanger.
yes a few weeks before.but i doubt very much it happened that night.
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From the attachments you posted on June's conversation with CC's mother regarding the future welfare of the twins, it appears that June was worried that the twins would be fostered, and she was against this. CC's mother seems to have put June's mind at rest over this.
Yes it does appear June was worried that the twins would be fostered and I think it stands to reason she would be against this. It also seems clear to me from CC's letter intended for NB and CC's WS confirming his discussion with Dr F that sadly SC was no longer able to care for the twins. This was unlikely to change as Dr F confirmed SC's mental illness would only worsen with time. Effectively this is what June was saying to CC's mother ie through Sheila's illness the twins may be placed in foster care.
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yes a few weeks before.but i doubt very much it happened that night.
Why do you think this?
It seems clear to me a long-term solution was required over child custody. When SC and CC seperated and subsequnetly divorced CC was happy for SC to take on the role of main carer with CC having access to the twins as and when he wanted. During SC's first stay at St Andrews psychiatric hospital in 1983 I believe CC, NB and June shared caring for the twins. When SC returned home she once again took on the role of main carer. However following SC's second stay at St Andrew the following was brought to CC's attention from the twin's teachers/headmistress and CC's mother:
- The twins 5 yoa at the time were having to get themselves up, dressed and fed in the morning and then wake SC to take them to school.
- The twins performance at school was suffering due to their home life.
- The twins were becoming distressed by SC being oblivious to them.
CC would not have allowed SC to become the main carer again. If CC's letter is accurate I would go as far as saying SC should not have been allowed unsupervised access. June, and perhaps to a lesser extent NB, would not have wanted CC becoming the main carer due to CC's lifestyle eg unemployed potter, living in rented (council?) accommodation with a girlfriend and no particular interest in religion.
It seems to me as far as NB and June were concerned their main objective of SC's fateful last visit to WHF was to sort out the twins future long-term. I think NB and June thought if they could get SC back to Essex they could help look after the twins with the help of foster day care as and when required.
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Why do you think this?
It seems clear to me a long-term solution was required over child custody. When SC and CC seperated and subsequnetly divorced CC was happy for SC to take on the role of main carer with CC having access to the twins as and when he wanted. During SC's first stay at St Andrews psychiatric hospital in 1983 I believe CC, NB and June shared caring for the twins. When SC returned home she once again took on the role of main carer. However following SC's second stay at St Andrew the following was brought to CC's attention from the twin's teachers/headmistress and CC's mother:
- The twins 5 yoa at the time were having to get themselves up, dressed and fed in the morning and then wake SC to take them to school.
- The twins performance at school was suffering due to their home life.
- The twins were becoming distressed by SC being oblivious to them.
CC would not have allowed SC to become the main carer again. If CC's letter is accurate I would go as far as saying SC should not have been allowed unsupervised access. June, and perhaps to a lesser extent NB, would not have wanted CC becoming the main carer due to CC's lifestyle eg unemployed potter, living in rented (council?) accommodation with a girlfriend and no particular interest in religion.
It seems to me as far as NB and June were concerned their main objective of SC's fateful last visit to WHF was to sort out the twins future long-term. I think NB and June thought if they could get SC back to Essex they could help look after the twins with the help of foster day care as and when required.
holly jb very cunningly tyed that story in .because without it no one would believe it
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holly jb very cunningly tyed that story in .because without it no one would believe it
Nothing to do with JB. The info is all from CC. It's contained in a letter CC wrote intending to send to NB and CC's witness stat.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Nothing to do with JB. The info is all from CC. It's contained in a letter CC wrote intending to send to NB and CC's witness stat.
holly iam not saying fostering wasnt diccused .iam saying no such argument took place that night.as jb would have us belive
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holly iam not saying fostering wasnt diccused .iam saying no such argument took place that night.as jb would have us belive
JB is the only person who can relay what he claims he heard. Sadly no one is around to confirm or refute his claims.
It seems clear to me NB and June would want to have a serious chat with SC over the long-term future for herself and the twins. It also seems clear from CC's letter and WS the situation was unsettled hence CC wanted NB to encourage SC to allow CC to become the main carer. I doubt this would meet with June's approval.
I don't see why a conversation about foster care seems so outlandish? SC and the twins had experienced day foster care in the past. When SC and JB were babies June employed a full-time nanny and au pairs on an ad hoc basis. Even if such a conversation took place there's no real reason/evidence it was a tipping point for SC. Did JB say an argument developed over foster care? I thought he said NB, June and himself were putting forward various suggestions, including foster care, and SC remained vacant? CC also confirmed SC was vacant on the drive from London to WHF and apparently never said a word throughout the journey.
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Firstly, I think it's disgraceful that Sheila and the twins weren't given any help from Social Services or the medical team she was under..... but so many youngsters have suffered this way! What I can't believe either is Sheila's friends, also JB, CC, and BW spoke of Sheila's vacant behaviour and attitude etc Yet the Doctor's didn't see it, unbelievable! Obviously the family had desperately needed help!
Regarding CC's letter, I believe I'm right in saying this letter was never sent to NB. Therefore the family were not aware of CC's comments at the time of the murders. I agree CC did write it, and rightly so, perhaps after his mother had told him of her phone call with JB and JB's concern that the twins could be fostered, CC decided to take matters into his own hands regarding the twins welfare, but the twins began living with him full time soon after owing to SC's breakdown, so the letter wasn't sent. So why then would the family be discussing fostering of the twins on the night of the murders, as the problem was already solved regarding the twins. I'm sure JB would also be happy with this as the twins were remaining within the family. It's more likely that the discussion was about NB and JB's suggestion that SC worked part time at Osea Road, ( this was bought up at a meeting of director's on July 18th ) in fact SC told a friend about this offer before the holiday at WHF.
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Firstly, I think it's disgraceful that Sheila and the twins weren't given any help from Social Services or the medical team she was under..... but so many youngsters have suffered this way! What I can't believe either is Sheila's friends, also JB, CC, and BW spoke of Sheila's vacant behaviour and attitude etc Yet the Doctor's didn't see it, unbelievable! Obviously the family had desperately needed help!
Regarding CC's letter, I believe I'm right in saying this letter was never sent to NB. Therefore the family were not aware of CC's comments at the time of the murders. I agree CC did write it, and rightly so, perhaps after his mother had told him of her phone call with JB and JB's concern that the twins could be fostered, CC decided to take matters into his own hands regarding the twins welfare, but the twins began living with him full time soon after owing to SC's breakdown, so the letter wasn't sent. So why then would the family be discussing fostering of the twins on the night of the murders, as the problem was already solved regarding the twins. I'm sure JB would also be happy with this as the twins were remaining within the family. It's more likely that the discussion was about NB and JB's suggestion that SC worked part time at Osea Road, ( this was bought up at a meeting of director's on July 18th ) in fact SC told a friend about this offer before the holiday at WHF.
Opal, I feel certain that we're all in agreement that Sheila was badly let down by the system. There seems to have been a breakdown in communication between the private and NHS sectors -not uncommon- and Sheila's own support system wasn't immediately local to her OR, perhaps more importantly, to each other. None seem to have witnessed her behaviour for more than brief periods/sporadically.
I think we may take it as read that the Bambers, as middle class, committed Christians, would have fought tooth and nail to prevent their erstwhile son in law, an out of work, Bohemian atheist, from having any more than contact with their grandchildren than they considered to be strictly necessary.
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I'm sure you're right April that JB and NB wanted the very best for their grandchildren, but just because CC was an out of work bohemian atheist at the time doesn't alter the fact he was their father and the children were living with him at the time of the murders, plus, according to their school doing much better. If a custody battle had taken place over the children their opinion's on where they wanted to live would have been given to the courts through Social Services.
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I'm sure you're right April that JB and NB wanted the very best for their grandchildren, but just because CC was an out of work bohemian atheist at the time doesn't alter the fact he was their father and the children were living with him at the time of the murders, plus, according to their school doing much better. If a custody battle had taken place over the children their opinion's on where they wanted to live would have been given to the courts through Social Services.
Regardless of CC's lifestyle the fact remains he was an excellent father to the twins.
Had a legal battle been fought I think it unlikely a family judge would rule in anyone's favour other than CC's. It seems obvious that his parents were supportive too eg assisting with the twins and SC and 'normal' which is not how I would describe the Bamber family. SC and the Bambers must have realised this.
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Firstly, I think it's disgraceful that Sheila and the twins weren't given any help from Social Services or the medical team she was under..... but so many youngsters have suffered this way! What I can't believe either is Sheila's friends, also JB, CC, and BW spoke of Sheila's vacant behaviour and attitude etc Yet the Doctor's didn't see it, unbelievable! Obviously the family had desperately needed help!
Regarding CC's letter, I believe I'm right in saying this letter was never sent to NB. Therefore the family were not aware of CC's comments at the time of the murders. I agree CC did write it, and rightly so, perhaps after his mother had told him of her phone call with JB and JB's concern that the twins could be fostered, CC decided to take matters into his own hands regarding the twins welfare, but the twins began living with him full time soon after owing to SC's breakdown, so the letter wasn't sent. So why then would the family be discussing fostering of the twins on the night of the murders, as the problem was already solved regarding the twins. I'm sure JB would also be happy with this as the twins were remaining within the family. It's more likely that the discussion was about NB and JB's suggestion that SC worked part time at Osea Road, ( this was bought up at a meeting of director's on July 18th ) in fact SC told a friend about this offer before the holiday at WHF.
Yes it is disgraceful. It is clear from CC's letter the twins were at risk physically and mentally.
I'm not sure the situation was resolved. No formal arrangments existed via any court order. SC was no doubt expecting the twins would return to her full-time at some point. What sort of conversations did CC and SC have regarding the twins after SC left St Andrews hospital Mar/Apr '85?
Did SC want to return to Essex? She left for boarding school at 10 yoa and thereafter spent very little time in Essex. She had been living in London from 17 yoa what was there to attract her back to Essex, especially if the twins were to remain in London with CC?
"I saw Sheila again in the middle of June [1985] at her flat. Whilst I was there she broke down in my arms crying. This was the first time I had ever seen Sheila show any emotion. She was very upset and miserable about her life and she wanted her children to live with her again. She stayed with me for a few hours and was obviously unhappy and distressed".