UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧

Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: ferryman on October 09, 2016, 06:47:41 PM

Title: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: ferryman on October 09, 2016, 06:47:41 PM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/12061882/Body-parts-left-over-from-operations-should-be-used-to-help-train-police-dogs.html

Sic:

But no such facility exists in Europe and scientists would need to secure a change in the law before one could be opened in the UK.

29
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: Lace on October 09, 2016, 07:49:44 PM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/12061882/Body-parts-left-over-from-operations-should-be-used-to-help-train-police-dogs.html

Sic:

But no such facility exists in Europe and scientists would need to secure a change in the law before one could be opened in the UK.

I thought Martin Grime said his dog couldn't tell the difference between human and pig,  so what's the point?
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: ferryman on October 09, 2016, 07:56:59 PM
I thought Martin Grime said his dog couldn't tell the difference between human and pig,  so what's the point?

I suspect there is (at least perceived to be) some advantage in heightened acuity of a dog's senses if you train on human body-parts.

The interesting thing is that Grime (apparently!) took Eddie across to America to be trained in ways outlawed as illegal in England (at a fairly advanced age for a cadaver dog).
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: Lace on October 09, 2016, 08:06:46 PM
I suspect there is (at least perceived to be) some advantage in heightened acuity of a dog's senses if you train on human body-parts.

The interesting thing is that Grime (apparently!) took Eddie across to America to be trained in ways outlawed as illegal in England (at a fairly advanced age for a cadaver dog).

I think it was a waste of time for Eddie as he had been trained on pig.   If a dog is trained on human alone then maybe it would be worthwhile.
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: mercury on October 09, 2016, 08:44:59 PM
I thought Martin Grime said his dog couldn't tell the difference between human and pig,  so what's the point?
Dogs are not used to find pigs...thats the point
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: mercury on October 10, 2016, 12:24:56 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/12061882/Body-parts-left-over-from-operations-should-be-used-to-help-train-police-dogs.html

Sic:

But no such facility exists in Europe and scientists would need to secure a change in the law before one could be opened in the UK.


Great news, thanks FM
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: John on October 10, 2016, 03:55:36 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/12061882/Body-parts-left-over-from-operations-should-be-used-to-help-train-police-dogs.html

Sic:

But no such facility exists in Europe and scientists would need to secure a change in the law before one could be opened in the UK.

It's about time the UK had such a training facility. We are so far behind the techniques used in north America it's become somewhat of a joke in forensic circles.

Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 10, 2016, 07:38:17 AM
It's about time the UK had such a training facility. We are so far behind the techniques used in north America it's become somewhat of a joke in forensic circles.

so far behind that the FBI invited Grime to the US


are portugal considered a joke too as they had no knowleddge at all of the EVRD dogs
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: John on October 10, 2016, 11:27:48 AM
so far behind that the FBI invited Grime to the US


are portugal considered a joke too as they had no knowleddge at all of the EVRD dogs

That's why Grime more recently relocated to the US, so that he could get the best possible training for his new dogs and be afforded many more opportunities for them to put that training into practise.  Then again maybe that was an illusion too?
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 11, 2016, 08:30:56 AM
Please refrain form libel and encouraging libel.
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: Lace on October 11, 2016, 09:00:38 AM
The fact is,  asking for a body farm in the Uk,  suggests to me that the cadaver dogs are not as successful as is made out.


http://www.espoma.com/product/blood-meal/

Blood meal contains the blood of animals that has been scraped off the slaughter house floor,  one on the animals blood is PIGS.   
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 11, 2016, 09:38:40 AM
The fact is,  asking for a body farm in the Uk,  suggests to me that the cadaver dogs are not as successful as is made out.


http://www.espoma.com/product/blood-meal/

Blood meal contains the blood of animals that has been scraped off the slaughter house floor,  one on the animals blood is PIGS.

A question, we know Eddie was trained on decomposing pig, do we know if his blood detection trains was on pig or human blood?
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: Lace on October 11, 2016, 09:43:13 AM
A question, we know Eddie was trained on decomposing pig, do we know if his blood detection trains was on pig or human blood?

Eddie was trained using pig carcass,   and so in my opinion Eddie would alert to  any part of that carcass,  as if it was a human carcass.
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: stephen25000 on October 11, 2016, 09:46:31 AM
Eddie was trained using pig carcass,   and so in my opinion Eddie would alert to  any part of that carcass,  as if it was a human carcass.

So what pig based material was identified ?

Hardly a ham fisted question to answer ?
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: Lace on October 11, 2016, 10:18:44 AM
So what pig based material was identified ?

Hardly a ham fisted question to answer ?

They didn't test the soil in the garden did they?
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 11, 2016, 11:30:09 AM
Teaching old drug dogs new tricks

"Sgt. Sean Whitcomb said the Seattle Police Department is already taking steps to desensitize its dogs to marijuana through rewards and constant training.
"Got to keep those sniffers in shape," Whitcomb said".



http://komonews.com/news/local/legal-pot-means-big-changes-for-states-drug-sniffing-dogs-11-22-2015
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 11, 2016, 11:42:04 AM
Cadaver dogs alert to blood and pig cadavers. You have proven you haven't got a clue about cadaver dogs and should stop spreading your myths. If you have evidence of a dead pig then provide it.

"Training a cadaver dog requires regular contact with human blood, decaying flesh and bones."

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/21/magazine/how-to-train-a-cadaver-dog.html?_r=0

In my role as advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States.
These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced decomposing pig cadavers into training assessments 100 % of the animals alerted to the medium. (The products were obtained from whole piglet cadaver not processed food for human consumption).
The result from scientific experiments and research to date is suggestive that the scent of human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train' the dog to distinguish between the two. That is not to say that this may not be possible in the future.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: Lace on October 11, 2016, 12:07:18 PM
So ?

Was any pig residue detected ?

Yes or No ?

We will never know.
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: ferryman on October 11, 2016, 12:16:30 PM
Being trained according to acpo guidelines does not exclude havng extra training....so....are you accusing grime of LYING? a smple yeah or ney will do

The second FOI answer I received does not say that a record of this alleged training was received and lost.

It says a report (sic) was not received.

Do you seriously think SYP would have no record of this training?

Even if Grime decided to keep the copy handed to him on completion (assuming it ever happened) a second copy could easily have been faxed to SYP who, as Grime's employer, would assuredly want a record of the training for their own purposes.
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: ferryman on October 11, 2016, 12:23:05 PM
But no such facility exists in Europe and scientists would need to secure a change in the law before one could be opened in the UK.


It implies that methods used on US body-farms are illegal in England.

Would we (in England) send a dog to be trained in ways outlawed as illegal here?

I suggest not.
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: jassi on October 11, 2016, 12:29:36 PM
Why not?  It sounds as if it's not the training that's illegal, but the establishment of a body farm.
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: ferryman on October 11, 2016, 12:32:06 PM
One concern I do have about this body-farm in England, and one thing I would hate to see, is 'competition' between body parts that could be used for medical purposes to save, or improve, lives and body-parts shipped off to a body-farm to train dogs.

I see the medical imperatives (of using human body parts) as having, or at least deserving, a higher priority than training dogs.
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: ferryman on October 11, 2016, 12:33:59 PM
Why not?  It sounds as if it's not the training that's illegal, but the establishment of a body farm.

Yes.

Training that's currently illegal in England (hence proscribed by law) would not have sanction in the form of training the same way in another country.
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: John on October 11, 2016, 01:01:41 PM
But no such facility exists in Europe and scientists would need to secure a change in the law before one could be opened in the UK.


It implies that methods used on US body-farms are illegal in England.

Would we (in England) send a dog to be trained in ways outlawed as illegal here?

I suggest not.

I see no difficulty.  Just because body farms are currently not legal in the UK does not prohibit police or anyone else from sending their dogs to other countries where they are licensed and legal.

It's like so many things in the UK, the Law has not kept pace with modern science. As far as a body farm is concerned the powers that be have probably shied away from the issue for fear of invoking a negative response from the general public. Dogs can be trained by other methods, granted not as efficiently, but it seems to be adequate for police purposes in this part of the world.  If advanced training is required they can always fly off to other destinations.

Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: Brietta on October 12, 2016, 09:34:09 AM
We should be discussing ...  A Body-farm in England?

I don't know what the advantages are of having a body farm where dogs are trained solely on human cadavers.  I've read a few articles about American facilities and still can't work out what the specific advantages are.

VOCs appear to be much the same in pigs and humans ... and the dog doesn't differentiate one from the other and goes for that combination as opposed to whether or not it is pig or human.

Vol IX p. 2478
CADAVER AND HUMAN BLOOD DETECTING DOGS SEARCH ASSET PROFILES

In my role as advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced decomposing pig cadavers into training assessments 100 % of the animals alerted to the medium. (The products were obtained from whole piglet cadaver not processed food for human consumption). The result from scientific experiments and research to date is suggestive that the scent of
human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train' the dog to distinguish between the two. That is not to say that this may not be possible in the future.
Martin Grime

With the presumption that Martin Grime carried out the experiment in reverse ensuring that a British trained dog also alerted to human scent (and I think we know that to be the case) ... what exactly is the advantage of a British body farm?
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: Eleanor on October 12, 2016, 09:39:28 AM

Where would they put a Body Farm in Britain?  The smell would be awful.
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: Alfie on October 12, 2016, 10:11:24 AM
Where would they put a Body Farm in Britain?  The smell would be awful.
Next to a wind farm, with the turbines pointing towards Rothley*. 

*NB - that was a joke, not a serious suggestion.
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: Brietta on October 12, 2016, 10:13:35 AM
Where would they put a Body Farm in Britain?  The smell would be awful.

(http://www.eonline.com/eol_images/Entire_Site/20080401/285.petersen.csi.040108.jpg)

Having learned much of what I know about forensic techniques from the same source most other 'experts' consult ... I think there is a huge advantage to be gained from studying how bodies decompose in particular circumstances and which insects are the agents of the clear up and when particular species are attracted to remains.

FORENSIC ENTOMOLOGY OR THE USE OF INSECTS IN DEATH INVESTIGATIONS
http://www.sfu.museum/forensics/eng/pg_media-media_pg/entomologie-entomology/

None of which is necessary for a dog to know.  The dogs' locus being in establishing where the body is leading to its recovery.  It uses it's nose for that and if pig smells like human and vice versa I wonder why we need a body farm.

Forensic scientists are already conversant with these techniques for establishing time of death etc as anyone who has had a cursory glance at a heaving mass of maggots in a laboratory tank can work out, whether school, college or university.

Is there anything extra to be gained from a body farm?  I really don't know as no-one seems to be making a case for or against.
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: Eleanor on October 12, 2016, 10:48:34 AM
(http://www.eonline.com/eol_images/Entire_Site/20080401/285.petersen.csi.040108.jpg)

Having learned much of what I know about forensic techniques from the same source most other 'experts' consult ... I think there is a huge advantage to be gained from studying how bodies decompose in particular circumstances and which insects are the agents of the clear up and when particular species are attracted to remains.

FORENSIC ENTOMOLOGY OR THE USE OF INSECTS IN DEATH INVESTIGATIONS
http://www.sfu.museum/forensics/eng/pg_media-media_pg/entomologie-entomology/

None of which is necessary for a dog to know.  The dogs' locus being in establishing where the body is leading to its recovery.  It uses it's nose for that and if pig smells like human and vice versa I wonder why we need a body farm.

Forensic scientists are already conversant with these techniques for establishing time of death etc as anyone who has had a cursory glance at a heaving mass of maggots in a laboratory tank can work out, whether school, college or university.

Is there anything extra to be gained from a body farm?  I really don't know as no-one seems to be making a case for or against.

All dogs can find a body if there is one. Even my half arsed, blind Pug, which is why most dead bodies are found by passing dog walkers.

As for the rest, an American Cadaver Dog Handler in the Casey Anthony Trial said in Court that a Cadaver Dog will alert to the next best decomposing body fluid if there is no Cadaver or Cadaver Scent.
Presumably her dog was trained at The Body Farm.

So no real point to a Body Farm in UK as other aspects of time span and maggots, etcetera, can be done under other circumstances.
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: Angelo222 on October 12, 2016, 10:53:48 AM
Next to a wind farm, with the turbines pointing towards Rothley*. 

*NB - that was a joke, not a serious suggestion.

I'm surprised at you Alf to even consider such a thing.
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: Eleanor on October 12, 2016, 11:01:03 AM
I'm surprised at you Alf to even consider such a thing.

Levity, levity, let's have a bit more levity.
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: Alfie on October 12, 2016, 11:05:30 AM
I'm surprised at you Alf to even consider such a thing.
Just trying to win popularity amongst the "sceptics".... 8(8-))
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: ferryman on October 12, 2016, 04:24:00 PM
Levity, levity, let's have a bit more levity.

Levity, maybe.

Put please, please, please, pretty please, not Levy (Durat) ....
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 12, 2016, 05:40:56 PM
Levity, levity, let's have a bit more levity.

Couldn't agree more.
Title: Re: A Body-farm in England?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 12, 2016, 06:51:58 PM
Couldn't agree more.

All right then; a body farm for testing Occam's Razors .
http://www.warriorcrafts.com/the_gruesome_act_of_sword_testing.html

[It is intended to be silly not serious !]