UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Off Topic and General Discussions => Off topic, general discussions and the Wide Awake Club. => Topic started by: ShiningInLuz on January 24, 2017, 01:53:11 PM
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-5667c315-a69c-4e5d-a683-e4e7771eb04d
This is a 'documentary' by the BBC about the true story of a 3-year-old girl who was abducted by two teenage girls from Primark in Newcastle city centre, not too long ago.
This is not 100% comparable with the Madeleine McCann case by any means, and the BBC has not gone down that route.
Aspects of it are directly pertinent. The store search, the mother's response, the deployment of resources in the golden hour, which in this case was literally the first 60 minutes, and police attempts to seal off an area in central Newcastle.
There are also stats on child abductions per annum in the UK, plus how many of those are abduction by a stranger.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-5667c315-a69c-4e5d-a683-e4e7771eb04d
This is a 'documentary' by the BBC about the true story of a 3-year-old girl who was abducted by two teenage girls from Primark in Newcastle city centre, not too long ago.
This is not 100% comparable with the Madeleine McCann case by any means, and the BBC has not gone down that route.
Aspects of it are directly pertinent. The store search, the mother's response, the deployment of resources in the golden hour, which in this case was literally the first 60 minutes, and police attempts to seal off an area in central Newcastle.
There are also stats on child abductions per annum in the UK, plus how many of those are abduction by a stranger.
Stranger abductions are rare
Rare things happen
Most parental abductions are where there is a custody dispute
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Stranger abductions are rare
Rare things happen
Most parental abductions are where there is a custody dispute
There has been quite a few alerts going out about children being approached by men lately, luckily the children have ran away.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-5667c315-a69c-4e5d-a683-e4e7771eb04d
This is a 'documentary' by the BBC about the true story of a 3-year-old girl who was abducted by two teenage girls from Primark in Newcastle city centre, not too long ago.
This is not 100% comparable with the Madeleine McCann case by any means, and the BBC has not gone down that route.
Aspects of it are directly pertinent. The store search, the mother's response, the deployment of resources in the golden hour, which in this case was literally the first 60 minutes, and police attempts to seal off an area in central Newcastle.
There are also stats on child abductions per annum in the UK, plus how many of those are abduction by a stranger.
Reiterated throughout the BBC clip is the absolute primacy of The Golden Hour in child abduction cases.
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All police officers are trained in the principles of the “golden hour”.
In any major criminal investigation officers think of the first hour as being a critical window in which to secure evidence, crime scenes, locate witnesses, find missing people and track down suspects while they are still relatively close by.
As time goes on it gets harder to do these things.
In an abduction case, the golden hour is even more critical - with every passing minute the risk to the abductee increases.
It is also illustrated how far an abductor can travel with the victim from the scene of the abduction before the police are even alerted.
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In retrospect, the time advantage the suspects had achieved over the police was chilling.
A full 12 minutes before even that first 101 call from the Primark manager, the teenage girls and their victim were stepping off the Metro at South Gosforth station - more than two miles away.
They walked, via side streets, to a shopping centre next to the park. It was 17:00 - just five minutes after police had received the initial alert.
In the city centre, officers were dashing to Primark. Soon they would be locking down the city centre and beginning their hunt for the teenage abductors.
Their targets though were now in an area with comparatively little CCTV.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-5667c315-a69c-4e5d-a683-e4e7771eb04d
The contrast between the policing of this crime and Madeleine's could not be more marked from attitude to result.
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All police officers are trained in the principles of the “golden hour”.
In any major criminal investigation officers think of the first hour as being a critical window in which to secure evidence, crime scenes, locate witnesses, find missing people and track down suspects while they are still relatively close by.
As time goes on it gets harder to do these things.
In an abduction case, the golden hour is even more critical - with every passing minute the risk to the abductee increases.
For Byrne, who was now in charge of the search, the clock was ticking loudly.
“First and foremost in the golden hour it's the recovery of the child - the preservation of life. That's what it's all about. But secondly it's about bringing offenders to justice.”
With the schoolgirl abductors three quarters of an hour in front, police had some serious catching up to do.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-5667c315-a69c-4e5d-a683-e4e7771eb04d
In the majority of suspected abduction cases the police are playing 'catch up'. The incident has to occur, then there is an interval before it is discovered and preliminary area searches conducted and only when these are unsuccessful is the assistance of the police called.
At that stage it would be my opinion that the priority is the missing child.
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The first few hours in a missing person's search are often referred to as 'The Golden Hours'.
http://www.itv.com/thismorning/missing-people-helplines
There was a marked difference given to the speed with which police dealt with Rose's situation and the way Madeleine's case was conducted.
Rose was missed within minutes and when the search for her was unsuccessful resulted in the police being called.
Acting on the information given in the emergency call from the store manager the police immediately moved into missing child mode and subsequently determined the child had been removed from the store, when they checked the CCTV.
Madeleine was missed at 10pm.
The last time she had been seen was after 9pm.
The police did not have the benefit of CCTV to enable them see her being removed from the scene. What they had were witness statements.
- the raised shutter and open window
- a man walking from the direction of the apartment carrying a barefoot pyjama clad child
Why did Madeleine McCann not deserve being given the benefit of the doubt ... and the case coordinator has written a book in which he has told us she was not.
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“Hello, I'm one of the managers at Primark in Northumberland Street in the middle of Newcastle,” the caller began.
“We've got a lost child in store, three years old, but it's over 20 minutes now, and we've had the staff scouring the place and we just can't find her.”
The caller, Thomas Clay, was calm but a little concerned.
Staff at the busy store are used to dealing with lost children.
It can happen several times a day, and the children always turn up within a few minutes, hiding under the clothes displays or wandering around the store.
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I tried to remain calm for him, I suggested that he contact the British Embassy and I remember him telling me that he had spoken to the local police but they were not taking the situation seriously. I remember Gerry saying that they did not treat the matter with urgency and only stated that Madeleine must have left on her own and that she would be back later.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PATRICIA_CAMERON.htm
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McCafferty was typing away as Clay spoke, creating the police log.
“The little girl's mother says the last time she saw her she was standing with two schoolgirls that the mother estimates to be approximately 13 years old. But we haven't seen the schoolgirls either.”
That was enough to change a serious though routine call into a top line emergency because it mirrored an historic child abduction case.
It is nothing like the way in which Madeleine's case was approached. The police knew Madeleine had not been seen since after 9pm ... yet at 11.30 " ... the local police were not taking the situation seriously".
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The golden hour is summed up very well by OxfordBloo as follows ...
"...the golden hour is metaphorical. It means the earlier observation and investigations are carried out comprehensively, the more likely a solution is to be found."
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6160.90
Should the police in Rose's case have packed up and gone home at ABDUCTION+63mins saying words to the effect that's it guys, might as well pack it in, we're three minutes over the golden hour ... no chance of finding them now!
That is not how the golden hour works ... it is what is the action taken once the alarm is raised. The police in Rose's case were called almost immediately, but were still left playing catch up and were very lucky to retrieve her unharmed.
Madeleine McCann did not enjoy that alacrity once her disappearance was reported.
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It is not unusual for children who are taken from their beds not to be discovered missing for many hours. Madeleine's case doesn't come close to many of the time gaps.
Even in Rose's case where the gap was minimal between Rose being abducted, missed by her mother, searched for unsuccessfully and reported to the police ... the police were playing catch up with the perpetrators ... they were always one step behind, and that had the potential for disaster.
The way in which they played the hand they were dealt ensured Rose's safe return to her mother.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-5667c315-a69c-4e5d-a683-e4e7771eb04d
All police officers are trained in the principles of the “golden hour”.
In any major criminal investigation officers think of the first hour as being a critical window in which to secure evidence, crime scenes, locate witnesses, find missing people and track down suspects while they are still relatively close by.
As time goes on it gets harder to do these things.
In an abduction case, the golden hour is even more critical - with every passing minute the risk to the abductee increases.
For Byrne, who was now in charge of the search, the clock was ticking loudly.
“First and foremost in the golden hour it's the recovery of the child - the preservation of life. That's what it's all about. But secondly it's about bringing offenders to justice.”
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British police are taught to act fast and use the ‘golden hour’
Stewart Tendler, Crime Correspondent
Last updated at 12:00AM, May 9 2007
They call it the “golden hour” principle, and British detectives learn it from the day they don plain clothes as a CID officer.
Detectives are taught that the first few hours are crucial, because there are fresh clues, alert potential witnesses and the trail is still hot.
Forensic science evidence, such as fingerprints, DNA material and CCTV film, is still available and the first lesson of the national murder manual issued by chief constables spells out that cases are solved by “effective early action”.
Roy Ramm, a former commander in the Metropolitan Police, said that, in reality, it means: “Quick reactions. Believe a serious crime has happened – even if the little girl turns up later wandering around with a toy.
“Treat the scene as a crime scene and get an incident room going. Use the goodwill of the public to help you,” he said.
British officers treat a missing child, especially a very young one, with priority. One veteran investigator said a case like the disappearance of Madeleine presents options that she might have been taken for ransom, by someone who wants a child or knows childless parents who are prepared to pay, or by a paedophile.
In Britain police would use the child rescue alert, based on the Amber Alert system pioneered in the United States and established after the murder of Sarah Payne, to use the eyes and ears of the public.
Local radio, television and radio would be asked to broadcast a description of the child and any suspicious vehicle.
One officer said that, unless there was reason to hold back because there was a strong lead, police would go public quickly. “You would get a description out, what the child was last seen wearing and a sketch of any suspect,” he said.
By the next morning detectives would be examining the sex offenders register to see which known paedophiles were living in the area. They would also consult force intelligence files and a national database, which holds details of cases, suspects and patterns of behaviour for paedophile crimes going back to the 1950s.
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British police are taught to act fast and use the ‘golden hour’
Stewart Tendler, Crime Correspondent
Last updated at 12:00AM, May 9 2007
They call it the “golden hour” principle, and British detectives learn it from the day they don plain clothes as a CID officer.
Detectives are taught that the first few hours are crucial, because there are fresh clues, alert potential witnesses and the trail is still hot.
Forensic science evidence, such as fingerprints, DNA material and CCTV film, is still available and the first lesson of the national murder manual issued by chief constables spells out that cases are solved by “effective early action”.
Roy Ramm, a former commander in the Metropolitan Police, said that, in reality, it means: “Quick reactions. Believe a serious crime has happened – even if the little girl turns up later wandering around with a toy.
“Treat the scene as a crime scene and get an incident room going. Use the goodwill of the public to help you,” he said.
British officers treat a missing child, especially a very young one, with priority. One veteran investigator said a case like the disappearance of Madeleine presents options that she might have been taken for ransom, by someone who wants a child or knows childless parents who are prepared to pay, or by a paedophile.
In Britain police would use the child rescue alert, based on the Amber Alert system pioneered in the United States and established after the murder of Sarah Payne, to use the eyes and ears of the public.
Local radio, television and radio would be asked to broadcast a description of the child and any suspicious vehicle.
One officer said that, unless there was reason to hold back because there was a strong lead, police would go public quickly. “You would get a description out, what the child was last seen wearing and a sketch of any suspect,” he said.
By the next morning detectives would be examining the sex offenders register to see which known paedophiles were living in the area. They would also consult force intelligence files and a national database, which holds details of cases, suspects and patterns of behaviour for paedophile crimes going back to the 1950s.
Is there a relevance to the McCann case? It appears to me that this is from someone with no knowledge of the case and no knowledge of the locale.
It strikes me as pure wishful thinking on Mr Tendler's part with not even lip service paid to the reality of May 2007.
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Is there a relevance to the McCann case? It appears to me that this is from someone with no knowledge of the case and no knowledge of the locale.
It strikes me as pure wishful thinking on Mr Tendler's part with not even lip service paid to the reality of May 2007.
Its relevance to the Mccann case is blindingly obvious...strange you cant see it
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Is there a relevance to the McCann case? It appears to me that this is from someone with no knowledge of the case and no knowledge of the locale.
It strikes me as pure wishful thinking on Mr Tendler's part with not even lip service paid to the reality of May 2007.
I posted it because of the sentences I highlighted. There seemed to be some lack of understanding about what constitutes the "Golden Hour" in police investigations and I hope my post would make that more clear, or do you think the principle shouldn't have applied in the McCann case?
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I posted it because of the sentences I highlighted. There seemed to be some lack of understanding about what constitutes the "Golden Hour" in police investigations and I hope my post would make that more clear, or do you think the principle shouldn't have applied in the McCann case?
I think in some people's eyes, the golden hour is that variable length of time which ends just before the PT police arrive.
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I think in some people's eyes, the golden hour is that variable length of time which ends just before the PT police arrive.
I think you are mistaken.
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I posted it because of the sentences I highlighted. There seemed to be some lack of understanding about what constitutes the "Golden Hour" in police investigations and I hope my post would make that more clear.
The "golden hour" is a concept best left to writers like Mr Tendler who have no idea what they are talking about, but can spin it into good copy anyway.
The Newcastle incident had many aspects relevant to Madeleine's case. The BBC link shows that after a search (a la Mark Warner), the Primark manager put in a non-urgent call to police, using 101 rather than 999 or 112. It was only because the call-taker remembered the Bulger case that it got ramped up to high priority.
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The "golden hour" is a concept best left to writers like Mr Tendler who have no idea what they are talking about, but can spin it into good copy anyway.
The Newcastle incident had many aspects relevant to Madeleine's case. The BBC link shows that after a search (a la Mark Warner), the Primark manager put in a non-urgent call to police, using 101 rather than 999 or 112. It was only because the call-taker remembered the Bulger case that it got ramped up to high priority.
Would you kindly provide a quote from the article giving Mr Tendler's definition of the Golden Hour?
From the article I read, he wrote:
"Detectives are taught that the first few hours are crucial" - I don't think there is anything speculative about that, I would say that was fact, unless you can explain why the first few hours of any investigation are not crucial?
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The "golden hour" is a concept best left to writers like Mr Tendler who have no idea what they are talking about, but can spin it into good copy anyway.
The Newcastle incident had many aspects relevant to Madeleine's case. The BBC link shows that after a search (a la Mark Warner), the Primark manager put in a non-urgent call to police, using 101 rather than 999 or 112. It was only because the call-taker remembered the Bulger case that it got ramped up to high priority.
He talks of a "few" hours
That means you are speculating as to how long he meant
You don't know
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Would you kindly provide a quote from the article giving Mr Tendler's definition of the Golden Hour?
From the article I read, he wrote:
"Detectives are taught that the first few hours are crucial" - I don't think there is anything speculative about that, I would say that was fact, unless you can explain why the first few hours of any investigation are not crucial?
You are correct. Mr Tendler switches from the Golden Hour singular, to the first few hours, plural.
Or in other words it could mean more or less whatever Mr Tendler wishes it to mean, depending on his interpretation of 'few'.
Therefore it is not the most reliable of sources.
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You are correct. Mr Tendler switches from the Golden Hour singular, to the first few hours, plural.
Or in other words it could mean more or less whatever Mr Tendler wishes it to mean, depending on his interpretation of 'few'.
Therefore it is not the most reliable of sources.
As was pointed out some time ago the golden hour is a term to describe the first few hours and does not refer to an hour
It seems you don't understand the article as you were originally making precise calculations on Tendlers words until your error was pointed out
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You are correct. Mr Tendler switches from the Golden Hour singular, to the first few hours, plural.
Or in other words it could mean more or less whatever Mr Tendler wishes it to mean, depending on his interpretation of 'few'.
Therefore it is not the most reliable of sources.
Sigh.
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Let's try this again.
44.1.9 The golden hour
The ‘golden hour’ is not restricted to 60 minutes. It is the initial period following the incident
occurring when the best opportunities exist to take decisive action.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/433252/Chapter_44_v9.pdf
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Let's try this again.
44.1.9 The golden hour
The ‘golden hour’ is not restricted to 60 minutes. It is the initial period following the incident
occurring when the best opportunities exist to take decisive action.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/433252/Chapter_44_v9.pdf
No, let's not try this again.
This is pure gobbledegook, roughly meaning that the so-called golden hour is a movable feast meaning whatever one wishes to take it to mean.
Or alternatively, it is meaningless. Just a matter of opinion, nothing more.
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Here is more from the Home Office Enforcement Instructions and Guidance under the heading of the Golden Hour
Tactical considerations
There are a number of areas to be considered during the ‘golden hour’, these include:
Victims –identify, support and sensitively preserve evidence.
Scenes –identify, preserve, assess and log
Suspects –identify, arrest and preserve evidence
Witnesses –identify, support and prioritise. Note first account and description of any suspects
Log –decisions, reasons, resources, conditions, circumstances
Clear lines of responsibility –identify, inform, brief, coordinate and review
Family/community - identify, inform, establish needs/expectations/concerns, primary support,
sensitivity
Physical evidence –preservation, CCTV, escape routes, public transport routes, ambulances
Prevent contamination –victims, suspects, scenes, exhibits
Intelligence –identify, prioritise, maximise, exploit consider community and open source
intelligence
Enforcement Instructions and Guidance
Community concerns –establish through lay advice, anticipate possible developments, risks to
public confidence, rumours and so on
Media strategy –use the Immigration & Borders Secretariat in the early stages of any incidents.
Adopt principles of basic media strategy.
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No, let's not try this again.
This is pure gobbledegook, roughly meaning that the so-called golden hour is a movable feast meaning whatever one wishes to take it to mean.
Or alternatively, it is meaningless. Just a matter of opinion, nothing more.
The definition is from the gov. Uk website
Hardly gobbledygook
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Here is more from the Home Office Enforcement Instructions and Guidance under the heading of the Golden Hour
Tactical considerations
There are a number of areas to be considered during the ‘golden hour’, these include:
Victims –identify, support and sensitively preserve evidence.
Scenes –identify, preserve, assess and log
Suspects –identify, arrest and preserve evidence
Witnesses –identify, support and prioritise. Note first account and description of any suspects
Log –decisions, reasons, resources, conditions, circumstances
Clear lines of responsibility –identify, inform, brief, coordinate and review
Family/community - identify, inform, establish needs/expectations/concerns, primary support,
sensitivity
Physical evidence –preservation, CCTV, escape routes, public transport routes, ambulances
Prevent contamination –victims, suspects, scenes, exhibits
Intelligence –identify, prioritise, maximise, exploit consider community and open source
intelligence
Enforcement Instructions and Guidance
Community concerns –establish through lay advice, anticipate possible developments, risks to
public confidence, rumours and so on
Media strategy –use the Immigration & Borders Secretariat in the early stages of any incidents.
Adopt principles of basic media strategy.
Which one should I select? There are so many.
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Please keep posts relative to the Newcastle case and the 'Golden Hour'. TY