UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on May 30, 2017, 01:22:26 PM
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Afaik no one has put forward any explanation for the holes in SC's nightie and the black particles surrounding them said to have been caused by a hot object and/or the graze wound to SC's abdomen noted by the pathologist. Is it possible the damage to the nightdress and graze wound were caused by the ricochet from an exited bullet?
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Afaik no one has put forward any explanation for the holes in SC's nightie and the black particles surrounding them said to have been caused by a hot object and/or the graze wound to SC's abdomen noted by the pathologist. Is it possible the damage to the nightdress and graze wound were caused by the ricochet from an exited bullet?
The small burn holes on the dress could have been caused by a hot shell case ejecting or the ejection port. Then again they could have been cause by cigarettes.
(http://www.vapercafeaustralia.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/thinking.gif)
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The small burn holes on the dress could have been caused by a hot shell case ejecting or the ejection port. Then again they could have been cause by cigarettes.
(http://www.vapercafeaustralia.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/thinking.gif)
Would a hot shell casing and the ejection port cause a graze to the abdomen? Do people who smoke routinely sustain burns to nightwear? I have no idea I've never smoked. I did once have a boyfriend who smoked and I don't recall any burns to clothes - I don't recall seeing him in nightwear 8(0(* Would a cigarette burn cause a graze to the abdomen. Of course the 2 might well be separate.
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Would a hot shell casing and the ejection port cause a graze to the abdomen? Do people who smoke routinely sustain burns to nightwear? I have no idea I've never smoked. I did once have a boyfriend who smoked and I don't recall any burns to clothes - I don't recall seeing him in nightwear 8(0(* Would a cigarette burn cause a graze to the abdomen. Of course the 2 might well be separate.
Its very unlikely that Sheila could have been wearing the nightdress when the abdomen graze happened. Because there is no corresponding damage to the dress.
What ever caused the craze cant have been hot because its a just a graze, no mention of burning.
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Its very unlikely that Sheila could have been wearing the nightdress when the abdomen graze happened. Because there is no corresponding damage to the dress.
What ever caused the craze cant have been hot because its a just a graze, no mention of burning.
Yes the damage to the nightdress is on the right and the graze wound on the left but the bullet may have skimmed across SC's person although this seems unlikely.
The only mention of the graze is in the autopsy. I can't find any other official docs covering this eg trial testimony. Dr Vanezis thought the marks to NB's backs were burns and Prof Knight disagreed. So I guess we could have the reverse situation here. I know you think the burn marks to SC's nightdress were probably caused by the casing ejection port. According to FSS the silencer only heated up to 24.5C after 25 shots. So how likely is it that the casing ejection port would cause SC's nightdress to burn? Think how hot a clothes iron gets. Do you remember DF on IA fired his .22 100 x's and said it only got warm to the touch.
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Yes the damage to the nightdress is on the right and the graze wound on the left but the bullet may have skimmed across SC's person although this seems unlikely.
The only mention of the graze is in the autopsy. I can't find any other official docs covering this eg trial testimony. Dr Vanezis thought the marks to NB's backs were burns and Prof Knight disagreed. So I guess we could have the reverse situation here. I know you think the burn marks to SC's nightdress were probably caused by the casing ejection port. According to FSS the silencer only heated up to 24.5C after 25 shots. So how likely is it that the casing ejection port would cause SC's nightdress to burn? Think how hot a clothes iron gets. Do you remember DF on IA fired his .22 100 x's and said it only got warm to the touch.
The casings get extremely hot. They are the direct source of the combustions. People often get burned by them. Its what is known in America as "Brass Burn"
https://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-249229.html (https://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-249229.html)
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The casings get extremely hot. They are the direct source of the combustions. People often get burned by them. Its what is known in America as "Brass Burn"
https://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-249229.html (https://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-249229.html)
When you refer to "The casings" which casings are you referring to? Have you got any evidence for the heat generated to .22 casings?
Myster suggested a hot casing might have been responsible for the marks on NB's neck/back.
Is there any evidence casings from a .22 get "extremely hot" and that any heat radiates out to the casing ejection port?
What do you think caused the burn marks to SC's nightdress?
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When you refer to "The casings" which casings are you referring to? Have you got any evidence for the heat generated to .22 casings?
Myster suggested a hot casing might have been responsible for the marks on NB's neck/back.
Is there any evidence casings from a .22 get "extremely hot" and that any heat radiates out to the casing ejection port?
What do you think caused the burn marks to SC's nightdress?
Yup... here ya go, honey... errrm, I mean Holly... https://youtu.be/1Q116cKnsTQ?t=44s (https://youtu.be/1Q116cKnsTQ?t=44s)
(Well, doggone it!... not exactly .22s, but near enough).
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Yup... here ya go, honey... errrm, I mean Holly... https://youtu.be/1Q116cKnsTQ?t=44s (https://youtu.be/1Q116cKnsTQ?t=44s)
(Well, doggone it!... not exactly .22s, but near enough).
Thanks. Yes I appreciate casings get hot but David seems to think this extends to the casing ejection port itself and that this caused the burn marks to SC's nightdress.
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Thanks. Yes I appreciate casings get hot but David seems to think this extends to the casing ejection port itself and that this caused the burn marks to SC's nightdress.
The port probably will get hot after firing many rounds over a short period. It is after all a combustion chamber from which hot gases are exhausted. But more likely that the nightdress burn was from one of the last two red-hot casings which might have landed on it before being brushed off or rolling off onto the carpet. Could even be a burn from a lit cigarette, cigar or ash which she dropped before going to bed.
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The port probably will get hot after firing many rounds over a short period. It is after all a combustion chamber from which hot gases are exhausted. But more likely that the nightdress burn was from one of the last two red-hot casings which might have landed on it before being brushed off or rolling off onto the carpet. Could even be a burn from a lit cigarette, cigar or ash which she dropped before going to bed.
I thought the ejection port was spring operated or the like. Although the slow motion vid does seem to show something exhausted.
The casings were found above SC's head so I'm not sure how they would come into contact with the mid/lower part of her nightdress.
Yes could be a cigarette but what about the black particles surrounding the holes, surely a forensic scientist could include or exclude cigarette ash?
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So it seems there were two exited bullets that ricocheted back towards the perp: DRH/5 and DRH/36. As I said the muzzle velocity of the bullets used is 1040 ft/s. I understand bullets are very hot when they leave the muzzle and can leave a powder tatoo:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1262834 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1262834)
I assume this is true with entry and graze wounds.
All gsw's at WHF were inflicted at close range.
Afaik no one has put forward any explanation for the holes in SC's nightie and the black particles surrounding them said to have been caused by a hot object and/or the graze wound to SC's abdomen noted by the pathologist. Is it possible the damage to the nightdress and graze wound were caused by the ricochet from an exited bullet?
Just had a closer look at M. Fletcher's Examination Record of the nightdress. Seems that the holes were tested for lead residue using Rhodizonate and none was found. So presumably they were not caused by a bullet...
https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bca-divisions/forensic-science/Pages/forensic-programs-crime-scene-rhodizonate.aspx (https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bca-divisions/forensic-science/Pages/forensic-programs-crime-scene-rhodizonate.aspx)
Next to hole * is smaller hole - made by hot
object - not full penetration - black particles around hole
Neg. Rhodizonate - not FD residues. No spots of oil
visible on lower half of front part(?). No evidence of rifle (18)
having been fired when breech end close to nightdress.
FD = Firearms Deposit maybe?
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Just had a closer look at M. Fletcher's Examination Record of the nightdress. Seems that the holes were tested for lead residue using Rhodizonate and none was found. So presumably they were not caused by a bullet...
https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bca-divisions/forensic-science/Pages/forensic-programs-crime-scene-rhodizonate.aspx (https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bca-divisions/forensic-science/Pages/forensic-programs-crime-scene-rhodizonate.aspx)
Next to hole * is smaller hole - made by hot
object - not full penetration - black particles around hole
Neg. Rhodizonate - not FD residues. No spots of oil
visible on lower half of front part(?). No evidence of rifle (18)
having been fired when breech end close to nightdress.
FD = Firearms Deposit maybe?
The holes were probably old, they could be simply from smoking joint.
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The holes were probably old, they could be simply from smoking joint.
... or a Tom Thumb cigarillo at Christmas... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnC92aZRjC8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnC92aZRjC8)
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... or a Tom Thumb cigarillo at Christmas... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnC92aZRjC8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnC92aZRjC8)
@)(++(*
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Just had a closer look at M. Fletcher's Examination Record of the nightdress. Seems that the holes were tested for lead residue using Rhodizonate and none was found. So presumably they were not caused by a bullet...
https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bca-divisions/forensic-science/Pages/forensic-programs-crime-scene-rhodizonate.aspx (https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bca-divisions/forensic-science/Pages/forensic-programs-crime-scene-rhodizonate.aspx)
Next to hole * is smaller hole - made by hot
object - not full penetration - black particles around hole
Neg. Rhodizonate - not FD residues. No spots of oil
visible on lower half of front part(?). No evidence of rifle (18)
having been fired when breech end close to nightdress.
FD = Firearms Deposit maybe?
I think FD is firearm discharge?
Where MF states "No evidence of rifle having been fired when breech end close to nightdress" whether JB murdered SC or she took her own life we know from the blood staining to SC's nightdress, trajectory of gsw's and wound tracks that the rifle was fired over her body twice. MF is the 'expert' that told the court his relevant experience included using an air rifle as a small boy &%+((£
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The holes were probably old, they could be simply from smoking joint.
If the holes were old how does one account for the black particles surrounding them? Surely washing would remove and even sleeping would dislodge/remove?
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If the holes were old how does one account for the black particles surrounding them? Surely washing would remove and even sleeping would dislodge/remove?
Old as in pre murders. Washing wouldn't necessarily remove scorched areas.
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Old as in pre murders. Washing wouldn't necessarily remove scorched areas.
MF said the nightdress contained black particles around the holes. I would have thought any particles from cigarettes, tobacco or cannabis, would be lost after any signficiant movement eg washing the nightdress, sleeping under a duvet.
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Thanks. Yes I appreciate casings get hot but David seems to think this extends to the casing ejection port itself and that this caused the burn marks to SC's nightdress.
The location of the burn holes are roughly where the ejection port was in crime scene photos. So I think its a good possibility.
I'm not too concerned about them TBH.
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MF said the nightdress contained black particles around the holes. I would have thought any particles from cigarettes, tobacco or cannabis, would be lost after any signficiant movement eg washing the nightdress, sleeping under a duvet.
Rather than being caused by a cigarette or cigar, I think it's possible the hole(s) and black particles were made by remnants of burning propellant which escaped from one of the two casings if either landed on her nightie, before being brushed off or falling off her body when the rifle was staged to simulate suicide. Or if not caused by propellant, they were hole(s) and black singe marks from a red-hot casing itself.
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The location of the burn holes are roughly where the ejection port was in crime scene photos. So I think its a good possibility.
I'm not too concerned about them TBH.
Neither am I but it's interesting the graze to the abdomen and nightdress appear to have fallen under the radar. Might be completely unrelated might not be.
Now imagine if witnesses observed JB with a graze to his abdomen covered by a dressing and some item of clothing had been found (maybe his fave cream jumper) with burn marks and black particles attached! Blimey we would never hear the end of it!
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Neither am I but it's interesting the graze to the abdomen and nightdress appear to have fallen under the radar. Might be completely unrelated might not be.
Now imagine if witnesses observed JB with a graze to his abdomen covered by a dressing and some item of clothing had been found (maybe his fave cream jumper) with burn marks and black particles attached! Blimey we would never hear the end of it!
The holes and the graze were on opposite sides.
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Rather than being caused by a cigarette or cigar, I think it's possible the hole(s) and black particles were made by remnants of burning propellant which escaped from one of the two casings if either landed on her nightie, before being brushed off or falling off her body when the rifle was staged to simulate suicide. Or if not caused by propellant, they were hole(s) and black singe marks from a red-hot casing itself.
But we know from the blood stains to SC's nightdress, trajectories and wound tracks that regardless of who pulled the trigger the rifle was fired over SC's body with the muzzle in loose contact with her neck meaning the casings were likely to land just above her head where they were found? I don't really see how the ejected casings would come into contact with the lower of the middle part of SC's nightdress and then end up above her head?
Also you transcribed MF's scribble:
"Neg. Rhodizonate - not FD residues. No spots of oil"
This seems to rule out the black particles originating from firearm discharge residue (FD)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodizonic_acid
The above test seems to be based on detecting lead within FD but if the Eley bullets didn't contain lead...!? Although they must contain lead in some part as the box comes with a health warning about washing hands. I get confused with the different parts: primer, propellant, casing and bullet. I think the bullet might be made of lead but as this is coated with paraffin wax it probably prevents users hands becoming contaminated by lead. Also when I loaded them into a mag I intuitively seemed to handle them by the brass casing.
David I think you've posted in the past that the Eley bullets used at WHF didn't contain lead in the primer/propellant? If so maybe MF's little tests is proof of this?
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The holes and the graze were on opposite sides.
Yes that's right.
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Yes that's right.
So are associated how?
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https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13622-gunshot-residue-test-fingers-lead-free-bullets/
"But the Griess test can give false positives when chemicals in varnish or cleaning chemicals are present. While the sodium rhodizonate test offers an alternative, “if someone used lead-free ammunition, it’s going to test negative".
Seems to me the bullets used at WHF were probably lead-free.
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But we know from the blood stains to SC's nightdress, trajectories and wound tracks that regardless of who pulled the trigger the rifle was fired over SC's body with the muzzle in loose contact with her neck meaning the casings were likely to land just above her head where they were found? I don't really see how the ejected casings would come into contact with the lower of the middle part of SC's nightdress and then end up above her head?
Also you transcribed MF's scribble:
"Neg. Rhodizonate - not FD residues. No spots of oil"
This seems to rule out the black particles originating from firearm discharge residue (FD)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodizonic_acid (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodizonic_acid)
The above test seems to be based on detecting lead within FD but if the Eley bullets didn't contain lead...!? Although they must contain lead in some part as the box comes with a health warning about washing hands. I get confused with the different parts: primer, propellant, casing and bullet. I think the bullet might be made of lead but as this is coated with paraffin wax it probably prevents users hands becoming contaminated by lead. Also when I loaded them into a mag I intuitively seemed to handle them by the brass casing.
David I think you've posted in the past that the Eley bullets used at WHF didn't contain lead in the primer/propellant? If so maybe MF's little tests is proof of this?
A hot casing could have been cushioned on impact with the material on the side of the bed and then rebounded to land on the nightie, if say the rifle was held horizontal or near horizontal for the second neck shot. This might have been the one that was found between her right arm and the chair, if it was swept off in haste by the perp when the rifle was being placed on her body.
Most, if not all .22 bullets are made of 100% lead, i.e. the projectile part which does the damage. M. Fletcher tested for lead around the hole(s) with Rhodizonate to see if a bullet had been the cause of them, not a hot brass casing or its burning contents.
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A hot casing could have been cushioned on impact with the material on the side of the bed and then rebounded to land on the nightie, if say the rifle was held horizontal or near horizontal for the second neck shot. This might have been the one that was found between her right arm and the chair, if it was swept off in haste by the perp when the rifle was being placed on her body.
But how did the 2 casings pertaining to SC's GSW's end up above her head where they would be expected?
Most, if not all .22 bullets are made of 100% lead, i.e. the projectile part which does the damage. M. Fletcher tested for lead around the hole(s) with Rhodizonate to see if a bullet had been the cause of them, not a hot brass casing or its burning contents.
It seems to me MF carried out the rhodizonate test on the black particles:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8235.0;attach=9116
and the test showed negative as the primer/propellant are lead-free.
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But how did the 2 casings pertaining to SC's GSW's end up above her head where they would be expected?
It seems to me MF carried out the rhodizonate test on the black particles:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8235.0;attach=9116 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8235.0;attach=9116)
and the test showed negative as the primer/propellant are lead-free.
Only DRH/2 finished up above her head, didn't it? And as I said, DRH/1 might have been swept off her body by the perp before the rifle was staged.
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Neither am I but it's interesting the graze to the abdomen and nightdress appear to have fallen under the radar. Might be completely unrelated might not be.
Now imagine if witnesses observed JB with a graze to his abdomen covered by a dressing and some item of clothing had been found (maybe his fave cream jumper) with burn marks and black particles attached! Blimey we would never hear the end of it!
Oh yeah. Good point!
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Oh yeah. Good point!
David you have posted about the bullets being lead-free. What do you think about the rhodizonate test on the black particles showing neg indicating lead-free? Could this be another 'forensic evidence breakthrough' moment?! 8)-)))
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Only DRH/2 finished up above her head, didn't it? And as I said, DRH/1 might have been swept off her body by the perp before the rifle was staged.
Well around her upper body. Certainly nowhere near the burn marks. I guess we will never know for sure since the nightdress was destroyed!
It does seem strange that the defence didn't explore both the abdomen wound and the nightdress.
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David you have posted about the bullets being lead-free. What do you think about the rhodizonate test on the black particles showing neg indicating lead-free? Could this be another 'forensic evidence breakthrough' moment?! 8)-)))
It seems a breakthrough moment in this respect was made back in 2001 but the Judges would not allow it into evidence at the appeal. See the 1st attachment. The experiment carried out confirms the forensic stuff I posted a while ago.
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It seems a breakthrough moment in this respect was made back in 2001 but the Judges would not allow it into evidence at the appeal. See the 1st attachment. The experiment carried out confirms the forensic stuff I posted a while ago.
Thanks. So there are many plausible reasons for lack of GSR detected on SC's person and not the one reason put forward by the prosecution ie that SC wasn't responsible.
So the black particles found on SC's nightdress may well have been GSR but tested negative using the Rhodizonate test as the .22 bullets used at WHF were lead-free.
Sounds compelling to me. Some will argue the black particles deposited on SC's nightdress as a victim rather than the perp. Regardless it still supports the idea the .22 bullets were lead-free hence tests for GSR and lead were coming up neg.
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Thanks. So there are many plausible reasons for lack of GSR detected on SC's person and not the one reason put forward by the prosecution ie that SC wasn't responsible.
So the black particles found on SC's nightdress may well have been GSR but tested negative using the Rhodizonate test as the .22 bullets used at WHF were lead-free.
Sounds compelling to me. Some will argue the black particles deposited on SC's nightdress as a victim rather than the perp. Regardless it still supports the idea the .22 bullets were lead-free hence tests for GSR and lead were coming up neg.
Why does it suggest they were lead free? These things are easily checked Holly - no need to make assumptions. I think the holes were old and have nothing to do with the murders.
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Why does it suggest they were lead free? These things are easily checked Holly - no need to make assumptions. I think the holes were old and have nothing to do with the murders.
Yes I agree these things are easily checked however it doesn't appear in this case it happened. Only a complete breakdown of the constituent parts from the manufacturer (Eley) can determine whether the primer and propellant contained lead or not. No doubt Eley's records will be able to conclude this one way or another.
What makes you think the holes were old?
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Yes I agree these things are easily checked however it doesn't appear in this case it happened. Only a complete breakdown of the constituent parts from the manufacturer (Eley) can determine whether the primer and propellant contained lead or not. No doubt Eley's records will be able to conclude this one way or another.
What makes you think the holes were old?
Because she smoked cannabis.Some of my friends used to smoke cannabis and now and again, bits of the resin used to fall out of the joint and onto their clothes - making little holes which were scorched around the edges.
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Because she smoked cannabis.Some of my friends used to smoke cannabis and now and again, bits of the resin used to fall out of the joint and onto their clothes - making little holes which were scorched around the edges.
There seems to be a range of opinions about the holes:
Caroline - joint
David - ejection port
Me - bullet ricochet
Myster - casing
According to MF black particles were also found. Surely a forensic scientist would know a cig/joint burn? He also says it wasn't full penetration. Not sure if that's for one hole or both!
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Afaik no one has put forward any explanation for the holes in SC's nightie and the black particles surrounding them said to have been caused by a hot object and/or the graze wound to SC's abdomen noted by the pathologist. Is it possible the damage to the nightdress and graze wound were caused by the ricochet from an exited bullet?
An interesting subject Holly.
Thinking outside the box for a moment, how about if the hole, burns and the graze across her abdomen were made by a hot poker held threateningly against her in order to get her to comply? The same hot poker which might have been jabbed into Nevill.
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There seems to be a range of opinions about the holes:
Caroline - joint
David - ejection port
Me - bullet ricochet
Myster - casing
According to MF black particles were also found. Surely a forensic scientist would know a cig/joint burn? He also says it wasn't full penetration. Not sure if that's for one hole or both!
Casing and/or remnants of burning primer/propellant. The primer which ignites the propellant is commonly Lead Styphnate, which unsurprisingly, does contain lead! Eley invented a special method of introducing this primer into the brass casing without the usual high-speed spinning process, which you can read about in the first article below. It focuses on Tenex, but probably applies across the whole range of Eley .22 cartridges. Lead Styphnate might eventually be replaced by less toxic compounds if they haven't already done so in Eley ammunition.
https://www.nioa.com.au/uploads/prontoAPI/attachments/Eley_Review_-_Sporting_Shooter_Magazine.pdf (https://www.nioa.com.au/uploads/prontoAPI/attachments/Eley_Review_-_Sporting_Shooter_Magazine.pdf)
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=dHbHS5GhCN4C&pg=PA55&lpg=PA55&dq=lead+styphnate+eley&source=bl&ots=x2Rvlv_gS2&sig=4xkSNPUUVyfakcTp7xMsaeUw1Gk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj4r_aOg6zUAhVsI8AKHegzC1EQ6AEIJTAA#v=onepage&q=lead%20styphnate%20eley&f=false (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=dHbHS5GhCN4C&pg=PA55&lpg=PA55&dq=lead+styphnate+eley&source=bl&ots=x2Rvlv_gS2&sig=4xkSNPUUVyfakcTp7xMsaeUw1Gk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj4r_aOg6zUAhVsI8AKHegzC1EQ6AEIJTAA#v=onepage&q=lead%20styphnate%20eley&f=false)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_styphnate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_styphnate)
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Casing and/or remnants of burning primer/propellant. The primer which ignites the propellant is commonly Lead Styphnate, which unsurprisingly, does contain lead! Eley invented a special method of introducing this primer into the brass casing without the usual high-speed spinning process, which you can read about in the first article below. It focuses on Tenex, but probably applies across the whole range of Eley .22 cartridges. Lead Styphnate might eventually be replaced by less toxic compounds if they haven't already done so in Eley ammunition.
https://www.nioa.com.au/uploads/prontoAPI/attachments/Eley_Review_-_Sporting_Shooter_Magazine.pdf (https://www.nioa.com.au/uploads/prontoAPI/attachments/Eley_Review_-_Sporting_Shooter_Magazine.pdf)
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=dHbHS5GhCN4C&pg=PA55&lpg=PA55&dq=lead+styphnate+eley&source=bl&ots=x2Rvlv_gS2&sig=4xkSNPUUVyfakcTp7xMsaeUw1Gk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj4r_aOg6zUAhVsI8AKHegzC1EQ6AEIJTAA#v=onepage&q=lead%20styphnate%20eley&f=false (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=dHbHS5GhCN4C&pg=PA55&lpg=PA55&dq=lead+styphnate+eley&source=bl&ots=x2Rvlv_gS2&sig=4xkSNPUUVyfakcTp7xMsaeUw1Gk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj4r_aOg6zUAhVsI8AKHegzC1EQ6AEIJTAA#v=onepage&q=lead%20styphnate%20eley&f=false)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_styphnate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_styphnate)
Yes I've posted about the above previously:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6965.msg310327#msg310327
Impossible to conclude anything without access to information from Eley about the materials and processes used in the manufacturing of the bullets used at WHF.
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An interesting subject Holly.
Thinking outside the box for a moment, how about if the hole, burns and the graze across her abdomen were made by a hot poker held threateningly against her in order to get her to comply? The same hot poker which might have been jabbed into Nevill.
But would a hot poker account for the black particles found around the holes on SC's nightdress? Afaik NB's pyjamas/wounds didn't present with any black particles? Also the graze to SC's abdomen had a dressing on.
Prof Knight disagreed with Dr Vanezis over the marks to NB's neck/back. He was unable to say what the marks were but didn't think they were burns.
Too many loose ends for my liking.