UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on July 04, 2017, 02:35:16 PM
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We seem to have spent an inordinate amount of time on NB's gsw's sustained upstairs so I thought it might be an idea to cover off the gsw's NB sustained downstairs in the kitchen in more detail...
I've uploaded the pathology report and a further report that relate to the 4 gsw's to NB's head. I had it in my mind that these gsw's were inflicted whilst the perp and NB were in the same position but rereading the reports I don't think this is the case. It appears NB sustained 2 gsw's to the right side of his head and a further 2 to the back of his head? I'm not too sure about this I will need to reread the reports again and look at the anatomical locations.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=674
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=676
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=722
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=724
I was also interested in trying to determine whether the location of the 3 casings found in the kitchen tie in with what is known about NB's found position and the ejection pattern of the rifle to see if we can determine whether or not the table moved after NB sustained his gsw's. I've uploaded DC Hammersley's trial testimony which describes the location of the casings found along with a diagram.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=207
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=209
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=219
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Diagram for NB's gsws sustained to his head.
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Rereading Dr Vanezis trial testimony (pages 8, 9 and 10) it seems to me the perp inflicted the 2 gsw's to NB head above his right ear with the tracks of these wounds going from the right side of his head to the left side so the barrel/perp were positioned at NB's side. Assuming NB was then unable to move voluntarily it seems the perp moved to inflict the other 2 gsw's to the back of NB's head on the right side at the top. Dr Vanezis described the trajectories of the two gsw's to the back of the head as "downwards". So I'm guessing the 2 gsw's to the side of the head were inflicted first when NB's head was in an upright position and then his head fell forward?
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One of the gsw's to the back of NB's head might account for the missing casing if NB's head fell forward and the casing slipped down the back of his pj top. This could also lend support to Myster's theory about a hot spent casing causing the burn marks to NB's back.
I've said in the past that I don't believe the burn marks were caused on 7th Aug as I just can't envisage a scenario where JB or SC singled NB out for burning but the above could explain this?
I wonder why the barrel/perp moved? Was it to ensure shots were fired from multiple directions to ensure death or did the perp need to go off and reload?
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I thought you'd been on Hollyday for a lazy, stress-free break... not to prepare a full frontal assault for when you came back?
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One of the gsw's to the back of NB's head might account for the missing casing if NB's head fell forward and the casing slipped down the back of his pj top. This could also lend support to Myster's theory about a hot spent casing causing the burn marks to NB's back.
I've said in the past that I don't believe the burn marks were caused on 7th Aug as I just can't envisage a scenario where JB or SC singled NB out for burning but the above could explain this?
I wonder why the barrel/perp moved? Was it to ensure shots were fired from multiple directions to ensure death or did the perp need to go off and reload?
It was only a suggestion, but without comparing the size and shape of a spent shell casing with the burn marks there's no way of knowing if one might have been the cause.
Four head shots from whichever direction whether reloading was needed or not, ensured that Nevill had no tale to tell.
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I thought you'd been on Hollyday for a lazy, stress-free break... not to prepare a full frontal assault for when you came back?
I've been meaning to post about this for ages!
I think I've described the tracks of NB's head gsw's accurately. So assuming these are correct I'm not sure about the location of the casings? The CoA doc, courtesy of MF, gauges the distance of these gsw's as:
64. In respect of the eight shots into Nevill Bamber's body, the six to his head and face were fired when the rifle was within a few inches of the skin.
I've uploaded a soc photo showing NB's found position and reposted the casing layout diagram. MF told the court casings travel forward, upwards and to the right up to about 4 feet.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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It was only a suggestion, but without comparing the size and shape of a spent shell casing with the burn marks there's no way of knowing if one might have been the cause.
Four head shots from whichever direction whether reloading was needed or not, ensured that Nevill had no tale to tell.
Yes I appreciate it is just a theory but it does tick a lot of boxes and might explain the missing casing. If it tumbled down NB's back it might also account for the irregular shapes. It is the only plausible explanation imo other than the marks were unconnected with 7th Aug. I just can't see JB or SC heating up some implement to burn NB for sadistic reasons or to check for life. It doesn't make sense that he would be singled out and not the other victims.
It is claimed the silencer and barrel of the rifle, both near the muzzle, contained blood which would surely have been destroyed had they been heated up in/on the Aga to the temp required to inflict burns?
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I've been meaning to post about this for ages!
I think I've described the tracks of NB's head gsw's accurately. So assuming these are correct I'm not sure about the location of the casings? The CoA doc, courtesy of MF, gauges the distance of these gsw's as:
64. In respect of the eight shots into Nevill Bamber's body, the six to his head and face were fired when the rifle was within a few inches of the skin.
I've uploaded a soc photo showing NB's found position and reposted the casing layout diagram. MF told the court casings travel forward, upwards and to the right up to about 4 feet.
Some of the text, whoever wrote it, on the middle photo is misleading. According to Vanezis, livor was consistent with the position in which Nevill was found, perched on a chair back with head in scuttle. So he couldn't have been sitting down as normal, then pushed over by the TFU when they entered the kitchen at 7:30am.
Casings as you know bounce, rebound and deflect anywhere. Those two on the kitchen floor might even have been kicked into their found position by the perp or the TFU, the third landing on the table by itself.
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Yes I appreciate it is just a theory but it does tick a lot of boxes and might explain the missing casing. If it tumbled down NB's back it might also account for the irregular shapes. It is the only plausible explanation imo other than the marks were unconnected with 7th Aug. I just can't see JB or SC heating up some implement to burn NB for sadistic reasons or to check for life. It doesn't make sense that he would be singled out and not the other victims.
It is claimed the silencer and barrel of the rifle, both near the muzzle, contained blood which would surely have been destroyed had they been heated up in/on the Aga to the temp required to inflict burns?
Would you believe it? At last we agree on something! But it was another blind alley for the campaign team and those silly sausages who funded the research.
Also the rifle end or moderator could have lost its bluing if subjected to burning coal or excessive oven heat in the AGA, which wouldn't have been missed by investigators.
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Some of the text, whoever wrote it, on the middle photo is misleading. According to Vanezis, livor was consistent with the position in which Nevill was found, perched on a chair back with head in scuttle. So he couldn't have been sitting down as normal, then pushed over by the TFU when they entered the kitchen at 7:30am.
The author of the text on the photos seems to be implying the wood panel behind the upright chair is the door officers first entered but the door is in fact much further away right in the corner. See image below.
Casings as you know bounce, rebound and deflect anywhere. Those two on the kitchen floor might even have been kicked into their found position by the perp or the TFU, the third landing on the table by itself.
Tests show a 25% deviation for all known factors including those you have mentioned above. I'm not sure I can reconcile any of the kitchen casings with NB's gsw's and position he was found?
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Would you believe it? At last we agree on something! But it was another blind alley for the campaign team and those silly sausages who funded the research.
Also the rifle end or moderator could have lost its bluing if subjected to burning coal or excessive oven heat in the AGA, which wouldn't have been missed by investigators.
Yep good point about the bluing. That's settled then casing or unrelated to 7th Aug.
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The author of the text on the photos seems to be implying the wood panel behind the upright chair is the door officers first entered but the door is in fact much further away right in the corner. See image below.
Tests show a 25% deviation for all known factors including those you have mentioned above. I'm not sure I can reconcile any of the kitchen casings with NB's gsw's and position he was found?
And the TFU didn't "supposedly" enter the kitchen by that door... they most definitely did. Might have had to squeeze through, but not enough to upturn Nevill who had been in that awkward position well away from the door for at least four hours.
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And the TFU didn't "supposedly" enter the kitchen by that door... they most definitely did. Might have had to squeeze through, but not enough to upturn Nevill who had been in that awkward position well away from the door for at least four hours.
The door is set back and it seems to me the entrance was free of any obstacles.
It has just occurred to me that we always hear about the RED paint flecks from the so-called scratch marks and yet we can see from the following image that about 1980 the Aga surround was painted white. So surely any debris that attached to the silencer would contain red and white paint?
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The CoA doc:
80. Having seen what they believed to be red paint on the moderator, members of the deceased's family returned to the farmhouse and examined the red painted mantel shelf above the Aga in the kitchen. On the underside they found what appeared to be recent damage. On 14 August 1985 the underside of the mantel shelf was examined by one of the scenes of crime officers, DI Cook. He found score marks and took a sample of the paint from the area. The paint sample was compared with the paint recovered from the knurled end of the moderator and each was found to contain the same fifteen layers of paint and varnish. On 1 October 1985 casts were taken of the marks and impressions found on the underside of the shelf. These were also consistent with having been caused by the moderator and there had been more than one contact between it and the shelf.
Paint samples taken from the Aga surround matched the red paint on the moderator. All 15 layers! Where's the white paint then? 15 layers? If the scratches were so deep as to remove 15 layers then the white paint underneath the red should have been apparent? A half decent painter and decorator would at least rub down if not use a blow torch.
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If the silencer scratched the Aga/mantle surround during the "violent struggle" then surely these flakes of red paint which when forensically analysed contained several layers would give the appearance of steps with previous coats of paint visible eg the white underneath the red? Why would only red paint be visible?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1026.0;attach=2057
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/feb/21/jeremy-bamber-murder-conviction-doubt
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The CoA doc:
80. Having seen what they believed to be red paint on the moderator, members of the deceased's family returned to the farmhouse and examined the red painted mantel shelf above the Aga in the kitchen. On the underside they found what appeared to be recent damage. On 14 August 1985 the underside of the mantel shelf was examined by one of the scenes of crime officers, DI Cook. He found score marks and took a sample of the paint from the area. The paint sample was compared with the paint recovered from the knurled end of the moderator and each was found to contain the same fifteen layers of paint and varnish. On 1 October 1985 casts were taken of the marks and impressions found on the underside of the shelf. These were also consistent with having been caused by the moderator and there had been more than one contact between it and the shelf.
Paint samples taken from the Aga surround matched the red paint on the moderator. All 15 layers! Where's the white paint then? 15 layers? If the scratches were so deep as to remove 15 layers then the white paint underneath the red should have been apparent? A half decent painter and decorator would at least rub down if not use a blow torch.
Well, they don't mention the colours of the 15 layers, just that here were 15 layers. If one under the red was white, it wouldn't be visible but encased inside the 15 layers. From the look of the kitchen, I don't think they read House and Home and they probably just painted it themselves.
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Well, they don't mention the colours of the 15 layers, just that here were 15 layers. If one under the red was white, it wouldn't be visible but encased inside the 15 layers. From the look of the kitchen, I don't think they read House and Home and they probably just painted it themselves.
But if painted wood is scratched to the extent claimed, length and depth, resulting in 25 flakes attaching to the silencer some measuring 0.6mm then I struggle to see each flake 'encased'. I'm thinking ragged edges with visible evidence of other colours from the 14/15 layers particularly the white underlaying the red. I'll carry out an experiment.
I scratched the underside of a window sil yesterday, my own I hasten to add, with a fairly blunt pen knife and visible paint chips/flakes dropped onto the carpet. So as far as I can see Peter Sutherst's claims are correct ie had the scratches occurred on 7th Aug then paint chips/flakes would be visible on the carpet in SoC photos.
Peter Sutherst seems like everyone's favourite Grandad in appearance and manner. ?{)(**
Who was responsible for internal maintenance? I'm assuming it was the Henry Smith charity?
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But if painted wood is scratched to the extent claimed, length and depth, resulting in 25 flakes attaching to the silencer some measuring 0.6mm then I struggle to see each flake 'encased'. I'm thinking ragged edges with visible evidence of other colours from the 14/15 layers particularly the white underlaying the red. I'll carry out an experiment.
I scratched the underside of a window sil yesterday, my own I hasten to add, with a fairly blunt pen knife and visible paint chips/flakes dropped onto the carpet. So as far as I can see Peter Sutherst's claims are correct ie had the scratches occurred on 7th Aug then paint chips/flakes would be visible on the carpet in SoC photos.
Peter Sutherst seems like everyone's favourite Grandad in appearance and manner. ?{)(**
Who was responsible for internal maintenance? I'm assuming it was the Henry Smith charity?
Not necessarily, if the chips were flicked from the moderator end to a place where no crime scene photos were taken.
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Who was responsible for internal maintenance? I'm assuming it was the Henry Smith charity?
I reckon the family painted the surround and other woodwork themselves to whatever colour they fancied.
Hence the reason for so many layers (15?) without burning any off - original varnish, cream, then pillar-box red.
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I reckon the family painted the surround and other woodwork to whatever colour they fancied.
I can go with that. It looks as if paint has been painted over paint over paint. What other colours were revealed would depend on the depth of the scratch inflicted. It only looks like a surface scratch to me.
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Not necessarily, if the chips were flicked from the moderator end to a place where no crime scene photos were taken.
I doubt paint chips would be capable of flying beyond the SoC photos which exist for that entire area.
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I can go with that. It looks as if paint has been painted over paint over paint. What other colours were revealed would depend on the depth of the scratch inflicted. It only looks like a surface scratch to me.
Chipped in two places, and with surface scratches matching the knurling of the moderator end cap...
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I reckon the family painted the surround and other woodwork themselves to whatever colour they fancied.
Hence the reason for so many layers (15?) without burning any off - original varnish, cream, then pillar-box red.
Always best to remove existing paint first for a better finish 8(>((
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I doubt paint chips would be capable of flying beyond the SoC photos which exist for that entire area.
But do any photos exist, other than the usual ones we've seen on the net, of e.g. underneath the table or obscure areas on the other side of the room?
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I can go with that. It looks as if paint has been painted over paint over paint. What other colours were revealed would depend on the depth of the scratch inflicted. It only looks like a surface scratch to me.
A cast taken by DI Cook for forensic examination revealed 15 layers. The same 15 layers found on the silencer 8(0(*
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Always best to remove existing paint first for a better finish 8(>((
Only if you've got OCD. I used to be that particular, but not any more.
Old paint of 1985 vintage contained lead apparently, and burning off isn't recommended, so I've read.
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Only if you've got OCD. I used to be that particular, but not any more.
Old paint of 1985 vintage contained lead apparently, and burning off isn't recommended, so I've read.
My dad always insisted on rubbing down or removing with a blow torch. I think that's maybe where I get my OCD from. A radish would be cut into a flower with petals before being served!
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But do any photos exist, other than the usual ones we've seen on the net, of e.g. underneath the table or obscure areas on the other side of the room?
Yes, you can see in the following vid Peter Sutherst inspects SoC photos under the full length of the Aga.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/feb/21/jeremy-bamber-murder-conviction-doubt
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Yes, you can see in the following vid Peter Sutherst inspects SoC photos under the full length of the Aga.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/feb/21/jeremy-bamber-murder-conviction-doubt
Actually I meant to post this youtube vid which shows Peter Sutherst looking at the carpet under the Aga:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/video/2011/jan/30/jeremy-bamber-new-evidence-video
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Always best to remove existing paint first for a better finish 8(>((
I don't think many farmers living in old property are that particular, especially so the Bambers judging by the state of kitchen stairs S2.
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My dad always insisted on rubbing down or removing with a blow torch. I think that's maybe where I get my OCD from. A radish would be cut into a flower with petals before being served!
Done that a few times too, on doors, window frames and skirtings with many layers of old paint similar to the AGA surround... but what dreary boring job it was. Never again.
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I don't think many farmers living in old property are that particular, especially so the Bambers judging by the state of kitchen stairs S2.
Some farmers I know have show house like homes and others a bit hit n miss! S2 8)><(
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Done that a few times too, on doors, window frames and skirtings with many layers of old paint similar to the AGA surround... but what dreary boring job it was. Never again.
Focus on the finished product. If a thing is worth doing it's worth doing well!
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Yes, you can see in the following vid Peter Sutherst inspects SoC photos under the full length of the Aga.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/feb/21/jeremy-bamber-murder-conviction-doubt (https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/feb/21/jeremy-bamber-murder-conviction-doubt)
I meant photos of the floor on the other side of the room near the hall and dairy doorways. A fleck could have stuck to the moderator then flicked off it, well away from the AGA carpet if the rifle was pulled away quickly from the surround.
One of the TFU was assigned to cover the kitchen stair S2, so if he took position near it to open the door, then any paint fleck on the AGA carpet might have stuck to his boot sole and dropped off elsewhere. Or even on Jeremy Bamber's, if he hung up the blue jerkin on the pulley-maid to hide those pesky scratches.
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I meant photos of the floor on the other side of the room near the hall and dairy doorways. A fleck could have stuck to the moderator then flicked off it, well away from the AGA carpet if the rifle was pulled away quickly from the surround.
One of the TFU was assigned to cover the kitchen stair S2, so if he took position near it to open the door, then any paint fleck on the AGA carpet might have stuck to his boot sole and dropped off elsewhere. Or even on Jeremy Bamber's, if he hung up the blue jerkin on the pulley-maid to hide those pesky scratches.
Yes maybe but given the length of the scratches and the fact we are told forensic analysis of the silencer showed 25 flakes I would expect to at lease find one flake underneath the Aga but I'm no expert in these matters.