I attended the Luz June 2014 dig of the mound by OG. I would estimate it to be under a 10 minute walk from here. So I did it 3 or 4 times.A question has been raised as to whether the OG effort was 2 dogs, or 4 dogs as apparently was quoted in the media. Here is my take on this point.
So I have seen Tito and Muzzy in active service.
When the handlers wanted the dogs to investigate an area of land, the dogs did not act like laser-guided missiles. They did things like running outside the area the handler wanted searched. They covered the same area not just once, but multiple times. The handlers used calls and hand actions to direct and re-direct the dogs.
If anyone requests a cite that I was there, or that this was the behaviour I observed, I am going to ROFL.
Equally, if anyone is pedantic enough to point out this was not a house search or a cars-in-garage search, I am going to ROFL.
It is my understanding that when Sergey Murat was made an arguido, his mother's car was searched by the dogs. His own car from 2007 had been torched long before 2014. There is no point in me asking how that search was conducted, because I very much doubt that Sergey or his mother would have been permitted to attend.
I cannot even get confirmation that the car was indeed searched, as the family refuse to discuss the case.
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I attended the Luz June 2014 dig of the mound by OG. I would estimate it to be under a 10 minute walk from here. So I did it 3 or 4 times.And once again these dogs found nothing
So I have seen Tito and Muzzy in active service.
When the handlers wanted the dogs to investigate an area of land, the dogs did not act like laser-guided missiles. They did things like running outside the area the handler wanted searched. They covered the same area not just once, but multiple times. The handlers used calls and hand actions to direct and re-direct the dogs.
If anyone requests a cite that I was there, or that this was the behaviour I observed, I am going to ROFL.
Equally, if anyone is pedantic enough to point out this was not a house search or a cars-in-garage search, I am going to ROFL.
It is my understanding that when Sergey Murat was made an arguido, his mother's car was searched by the dogs. His own car from 2007 had been torched long before 2014. There is no point in me asking how that search was conducted, because I very much doubt that Sergey or his mother would have been permitted to attend.
I cannot even get confirmation that the car was indeed searched, as the family refuse to discuss the case.
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A question has been raised as to whether the OG effort was 2 dogs, or 4 dogs as apparently was quoted in the media. Here is my take on this point.http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6311.msg283391#msg283391
Sorry, I cannot give the forum a definitive answer one way or the other.
Prior to the digs, I had little interest in the case, although I had read both Kate's book and Gonçalo's book.
It was my disbelief and anger that SY were digging up central Luz that got me started. So at the time, I would rate my expertise on the case, on a scale of 0-10, as perhaps a 1.
I never thought to take pictures or video, which I definitely would now.
So I mainly wondered in amazement at the circus display. We had GNR, PJ and SY. We had dogs and horses. We had guns. We had helicopters, aeroplanes and at least one drone. We had media video and photography. Teams from the UK and teams from Lisbon. OG turned up with brand new shovels and pickaxes and learned these are useless for digging in the Algarve. There was ground-penetrating radar and the ubiquitous two-stroke strimmer for clearing vegetation prior to fingertip searches. There was a large combined control centre on the top of the mound. There was another GNR control centre on 25 April street.
We lived for about 8 months on the urbanisation one can see beside the mound, the Paraíso (same name as the restaurant on the beach). So I am familiar with the locale, and had walked across it many times. At the time of the dig I knew enough of the area to walk around the entire perimeter.
On 25 April Street was an Italian restaurant that my family and I have eaten in, called Amici (friends). At one of these meals we were told a story which would become relevant in the dig. I was having white fish in lemon sauce. As the water served it, he said my potatoes were grown on an allotment on the land around mound. Amici had agreed to exchange water required to grow the vegetables in exchange for a portion of the produce.
This suggests that one or more of Andy Redwood's 'anomalies' was simply due to a vegetable patch.
Since I was simply treating the dig as an amusement, as a circus, I didn't take detailed notes on anything.
I cannot remember seeing more than two dogs at any one time. Of course, that does not preclude more than two being deployed simultaneously. Nor does it preclude the dogs being deployed in shifts, to give them time off.
A question has been raised as to whether the OG effort was 2 dogs, or 4 dogs as apparently was quoted in the media. Here is my take on this point.
Sorry, I cannot give the forum a definitive answer one way or the other.
Prior to the digs, I had little interest in the case, although I had read both Kate's book and Gonçalo's book.
It was my disbelief and anger that SY were digging up central Luz that got me started. So at the time, I would rate my expertise on the case, on a scale of 0-10, as perhaps a 1.
I never thought to take pictures or video, which I definitely would now.
So I mainly wondered in amazement at the circus display. We had GNR, PJ and SY. We had dogs and horses. We had guns. We had helicopters, aeroplanes and at least one drone. We had media video and photography. Teams from the UK and teams from Lisbon. OG turned up with brand new shovels and pickaxes and learned these are useless for digging in the Algarve. There was ground-penetrating radar and the ubiquitous two-stroke strimmer for clearing vegetation prior to fingertip searches. There was a large combined control centre on the top of the mound. There was another GNR control centre on 25 April street.
We lived for about 8 months on the urbanisation one can see beside the mound, the Paraíso (same name as the restaurant on the beach). So I am familiar with the locale, and had walked across it many times. At the time of the dig I knew enough of the area to walk around the entire perimeter.
On 25 April Street was an Italian restaurant that my family and I have eaten in, called Amici (friends). At one of these meals we were told a story which would become relevant in the dig. I was having white fish in lemon sauce. As the water served it, he said my potatoes were grown on an allotment on the land around mound. Amici had agreed to exchange water required to grow the vegetables in exchange for a portion of the produce.
This suggests that one or more of Andy Redwood's 'anomalies' was simply due to a vegetable patch.
Since I was simply treating the dig as an amusement, as a circus, I didn't take detailed notes on anything.
I cannot remember seeing more than two dogs at any one time. Of course, that does not preclude more than two being deployed simultaneously. Nor does it preclude the dogs being deployed in shifts, to give them time off.
And once again these dogs found nothing'That doesn't sound correct' IYO is of no relevance.
That's why they had to be repeatedly called back
Because there was nothing to alert too
What you are implying is that if there were something the dogs may not react to it
May miss it unless brought back multiple times
That doesn't sound correct
'That doesn't sound correct' IYO is of no relevance.
I have seen the videos. I have witnessed the dogs deployed in real life.
In real life, the handlers used more than one pass on a regular basis.
If you don't like this, provide something more reliable than your opinion.
A question has been raised as to whether the OG effort was 2 dogs, or 4 dogs as apparently was quoted in the media. Here is my take on this point.
Sorry, I cannot give the forum a definitive answer one way or the other.
Prior to the digs, I had little interest in the case, although I had read both Kate's book and Gonçalo's book.
It was my disbelief and anger that SY were digging up central Luz that got me started. So at the time, I would rate my expertise on the case, on a scale of 0-10, as perhaps a 1.
I never thought to take pictures or video, which I definitely would now.
So I mainly wondered in amazement at the circus display. We had GNR, PJ and SY. We had dogs and horses. We had guns. We had helicopters, aeroplanes and at least one drone. We had media video and photography. Teams from the UK and teams from Lisbon. OG turned up with brand new shovels and pickaxes and learned these are useless for digging in the Algarve. There was ground-penetrating radar and the ubiquitous two-stroke strimmer for clearing vegetation prior to fingertip searches. There was a large combined control centre on the top of the mound. There was another GNR control centre on 25 April street.
We lived for about 8 months on the urbanisation one can see beside the mound, the Paraíso (same name as the restaurant on the beach). So I am familiar with the locale, and had walked across it many times. At the time of the dig I knew enough of the area to walk around the entire perimeter.
On 25 April Street was an Italian restaurant that my family and I have eaten in, called Amici (friends). At one of these meals we were told a story which would become relevant in the dig. I was having white fish in lemon sauce. As the water served it, he said my potatoes were grown on an allotment on the land around mound. Amici had agreed to exchange water required to grow the vegetables in exchange for a portion of the produce.
This suggests that one or more of Andy Redwood's 'anomalies' was simply due to a vegetable patch.
Since I was simply treating the dig as an amusement, as a circus, I didn't take detailed notes on anything.
I cannot remember seeing more than two dogs at any one time. Of course, that does not preclude more than two being deployed simultaneously. Nor does it preclude the dogs being deployed in shifts, to give them time off.
The word in Portuguese is divertido - a diversion in the sense of amusement.
Perhaps with your local knowledge you may have treated the dig with amusement. I cannot say I share your sense of humour.
I watched the footage of the dig and read the reports and hoped that nothing would indicate that Madeleine was dead.
The word in Portuguese is divertido - a diversion in the sense of amusement.
Since I knew in advance why it was extremely unlikely they were likely to find anything there, why should I have been expected to treat it as anything other than a farce?
It is on the main road from the west into Luz.
It has a road running through it that happens to be an integral part of the one-way system. It happens to be 2-way, but it is important in getting out of the 1-way system on Rua Calhete. That is the Bull, Kelly's, Fernando's and the Dolphin, all of them popular.
I knew that it is nigh-well impossible to dig any grave in Luz by hand. Some small holes are dug by hand. It takes hours and it is extremely noisy.
The plot is beside two large complexes and numerous smaller housing units. It is not out in the sticks or away from people. Digging was a no-no.
The OG dig fell at the first hurdle, because of complete ignorance of Luz.
Most locals' views that I know of were incandescent. Many of these were aired at the time.
I had not suffered 7 years of unrelenting s***e on this, as many here had.
I simply knew enough to know that OG were making utter fools of themselves.
You have conceded you were ignorant of local knowledge. Kindly do not tell me, or by inference those locals with a detailed knowledge of Luz, how I/we should have felt, based upon your ignorance of the locality.
(http://s2.glbimg.com/ri3bQRX1NMYUd737k1BmoKcD3i8=/s.glbimg.com/jo/g1/f/original/2014/06/07/2014-06-07t092101z_80784456.jpg)How do they manage to grow potatoes commercially on the mound which you say is impervious to the use of manual digging implements?
Amaral didn't even understand Mark Harrison's report.
And the Smiths long ago recanted of the belief that the man they saw might be Gerry.
So what particular thing did you see that was so fascinating? You said you didn't see them search inside the house, so all you saw was the dog going in. We saw Eddie searching the apartments and the cars.
Grime has told us what reliability by the alerts are as regards evidence
Zero
The alerts point to where to look for evidence
None was found
When have you witnessed or observed any searches conducted by dogs ?Have you
Other than relating to this case.
When have you witnessed or observed any searches conducted by dogs ?
Other than relating to this case.
Why not quote the entirety of what Grime said as regards the indications, rather than your selective quotes ?Grime stated clearly the alerts have NO EVIDENTIAL RELIABILITY
Grime stated clearly the alerts have NO EVIDENTIAL RELIABILITY
That's it
Nothing selective
The whole quote please.
Not just your extract.
I'm quoting the relevant part
If you wish to post something else it's up to you
@ShiningThat referred to the mini-digs to the east of Luz, from memory. If it refers to the central site, please flag it up. I have been over a fair portion of the central site and never seen anything that looked like a grave.
I thought locals said animals had been previously buried in the location OG searched?
Did the dogs work in tandem - i.e. both checking the designated zones?Sorry, I cannot say.
You are merely quoting your opinionI am describing what I saw.
Mine is supported by logic
These dogs are very sensitive yet they will pass a source of cadaver scent and not alert
Not once but several times according to you
That is not logical
There is the difference; while you were being amused my thoughts and I know the thoughts of others were with the family existing on tenterhooks that the remains of their beloved child might be dug up.Therein lies the difference indeed.
I have no reason to believe it was a commercial plot, as that would have secured a supply of water and would also have access to high-power digging engines.(http://s2.glbimg.com/ri3bQRX1NMYUd737k1BmoKcD3i8=/s.glbimg.com/jo/g1/f/original/2014/06/07/2014-06-07t092101z_80784456.jpg)How do they manage to grow potatoes commercially on the mound which you say is impervious to the use of manual digging implements?
With a pneumatic drill, silly ....There's a policeman on the left with what is clearly a spade. There's a policewoman on the right with what is clearly a spade. There is not a sign of a pneumatic drill in sight.
ETA: Sharp spot
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I saw this article on another forum today whilst looking for something else. It dates back to 2010 & the technology may well have been more widely used by 2013/14. It was reported that a helicopter seen over Luz at the time was from the military.The military helicopter flight was in June 2014. It was immediately before the dig started. Any ILOR would have been months previous.
The technology would explain why specific areas were flagged as being of further interest to SY.
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/tech-sees-dead-people/story?id=10389441
New Tech Sees Dead People
By ERIC BLAND April 17, 2010
A spooky sounding technology is finding old, unmarked graves. Using hyperspectral imaging, scientists from McGill University have found unmarked animal graves with special cameras that measure changes in the light coming from soil and plants.
Hyperspectral imaging collects and processes light from across the electromagnetic spectrum, including visible light as well as ultraviolet and infrared light. The research could help police solve missing persons cases or reveal new mass graves from hundreds, if not thousands, of years ago.
"As soon as there is some decay you can see a difference," said Andre Costopoulos, a professor at McGill University developing new techniques to find old graves.
"We suspect that some of these graves are over 40 years old, and are excited to try to find much older grave sites," some of which could be hundreds of years old, said Costopoulos.
The McGill project began in an unlikely place: an African animal safari park in Quebec called Parc Safari. Parc Safari officials wanted to exhume a buried elephant and reassemble the bones for an park exhibit. But the park official didn't know where the dead elephant was buried.
Hyperspectral Camera-Equipped Aircraft Detected Animal Graves
Costopoulos was enlisted to find the missing elephant. Over three seasons Costopoulos' team found seven animal graves at depths of two to three feet deep (including the elephant). They knew more animal graves existed at the site.
Meanwhile, Margaret Kalacska, another professor at McGill University, was studying the effects of soil on plant growth by measuring the amount of chlorophyll in plant leaves using hyperspectral imaging. Kalacska and Costopoulos decided to combine their expertise to find the remaining animals at the pet cemetery.
The McGill scientists borrowed a plane from the Canadian National Research Council and equipped it with two cameras. One camera recorded light in the visible spectrum and into the infrared range. The other camera recorded light in the infrared and longer light ranges.
When the hyperspectral camera-equipped aircraft flew over the animal graveyard, the scientists found all seven known graves, plus 25 new graves, some of which were buried up up to eight feet deep.
New Technology Saves Time
"One flyby of the aircraft gave us four to fives times more information than we gathered in three seasons of digging," said Costopoulos.
For the first five years or so a decaying body inhibits plant growth. "Initially it's a pretty toxic environment," for plants, said Kalacska, who, along with Pablo Arroyo and Tim Moore, manages the technological side of the research. Plants that grow over such recent graves don't reflect as much light in the visible and near infrared region, which scientists can detect using their cameras.
After five years, however, the plants growing over buried body suddenly reflect light instead of absorbing light. In fact, on-grave plants reflect more than twice the green light of off-grave plants. For a human eye detecting such tiny changes would be "very hard," said Kalacska, but the difference is obvious to the hyperspectral camera.
The increase in reflected light comes from an increase in chlorophyll, the pigment that plants use to convert light from the sun. After five years a decomposing body becomes fertilizer, supplying the growing plants with much needed nutrients like nitrogen and phosphorus. Bigger plants with bigger, healthier leaves reflect more light.
Dead Bodies Release Chemicals That Stain Soil Above
A decomposing body can fertilize a plant for years. Some graves found by the hyperspectral camera at Parc Safari could be 50 years old. Larger mass graves could provide enough nutrients to encourage noticeable plant growth for hundreds of years, suspects Costopoulos.
The McGill University team is currently testing their plant-based hyperspectral images at sites in Canada and Costa Rica. The team also hopes to test their technique at a suspected mass grave site in the barren Canadian north.
Without extensive plant cover, the McGill University team will rely on longer wavelengths to find changes in soil chemistry. Besides fertilizing plants, a dead body releases chemicals that stain the soil above it, which the hyperspectral camera can detect.
The research could aid local police and international human rights investigators, say the McGill scientists and Ian Hanson, a scientist at the University of Bournemouth in Britain. Equipping planes with hyperspectal imaging equipment would allow local police to fly over huge areas searching for newly missing persons.
Researchers Hope to Use Technology to Find Mass Graves in Bosnia, Rwanda
The team also hopes to use hyperspectral imaging to find mass graves in places like Bosnia and Rwanda. Working with the McGill law department, Costopoulos and Kalacska are laying the legal groundwork to use hyperspectral imaging for convicting mass murderers of crimes against humanity.
Ian Hanson, a scientist at the University of Bournemouth in Britain, is "very impressed," with the McGill research. Hanson uses infrared cameras to help local police find missing persons and also investigates international human rights abuses and mass graves in Bosnia and elsewhere.
"This has a wide range of applications," for local police and international human rights investigators. "If the perpetrators know that what they do will leave long term traces that can be detected, that might have a deterrent effect on them," said Hanson.