UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: adam on August 13, 2017, 11:59:51 AM
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It's no secret Nevill's call to Bamber only lasted 4 seconds. Bamber's own evidence was that Nevill said 11 words to him before putting the phone down.
The 11 words completed a sentence, rather than Nevill putting the phone down mid sentence. Suggesting it was Nevill's choice to put the phone down.
This is surprising as Nevill had made the big decision that he needed Bamber's help. Then spent up to 5 minutes ringing & waiting for Bamber to answer. So to just speak for 4 seconds & not give Bamber the chance to respond contradicts Nevill's decision.
According to many supporters & Bamber himself, Nevill also phoned Chelmsford police around half an hour after his phone call to Bamber. This call would have lasted at least 5 minutes, rather than 4 seconds.
The only answers for Nevill's 4 second call so far have been 'we weren't there' & 'it doesn't matter'.
A claim that Sheila ordered Nevill at rifle point to phone Bamber has also been made. However surely Nevill would have spent longer than 4 seconds persuading Bamber to go to WHF, in order to appease a 'crazy' Sheila holding him at rifle point.
Does anyone have any suggestions why Nevill only spoke for 4 seconds to Bamber & then put the phone down ?
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It's no secret Nevill's call to Bamber only lasted 4 seconds. Bamber's own evidence was that Nevill said 11 words to him before putting the phone down.
The 11 words completed a sentence, rather than Nevill putting the phone down mid sentence. Suggesting it was Nevill's choice to put the phone down.
This is surprising as Nevill had made the big decision that he needed Bamber's help. Then spent up to 5 minutes ringing & waiting for Bamber to answer. So to just speak for 4 seconds & not give Bamber the chance to respond contradicts Nevill's decision.
According to many supporters & Bamber himself, Nevill also phoned Chelmsford police around half an hour after his phone call to Bamber. This call would have lasted at least 5 minutes, rather than 4 seconds.
The only answers for Nevill's 4 second call so far have been 'we weren't there' & 'it doesn't matter'.
A claim that Sheila ordered Nevill at rifle point to phone Bamber has also been made. However surely Nevill would have spent longer than 4 seconds persuading Bamber to go to WHF, in order to appease a 'crazy' Sheila holding him at rifle point.
Does anyone have any suggestions why Nevill only spoke for 4 seconds to Bamber & then put the phone down ?
Nevill never phoned anyone, the entire claim was a fabrication invented by Jeremy Bamber merely to strengthen his concocted story.
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Nevill never phoned anyone, the entire claim was a fabrication invented by Jeremy Bamber merely to strengthen his concocted story.
I was wondering why Bamber said the phone call was 4 seconds.
Bamber may have felt if he went into detail of a two way conversation between him & Nevill, lasting a couple of minutes, he may make a mistake. So he just kept the call to a minimum.
It's doubtful Bamber realised just how short he had made Nevill's call. He does now.
Bamber does not remember what he said to Julie at 10am, 3am & 5am. Together with not remembering what him & Sheila spoke about in the fields. However he remembers the fostering conversation & Nevill's 11 words.
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In planning the murders, Bamber must have hesitated over this point. Should he skip the sos phone call and just allow the bodies to be discovered by a 3rd party or is it absolutely necessary that police hear his version of events first?
The phone call ended up being a cornerstone of the prosecutions case, so If he had just allowed the bodies to be discovered next day and raised the possibility of a 3rd party assassin would the outcome at trial have been different ? I bet Bamber has nightmares over his naivety in inventing that phone call from Nevill.
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In planning the murders, Bamber must have hesitated over this point. Should he skip the sos phone call and just allow the bodies to be discovered by a 3rd party or is it absolutely necessary that police hear his version of events first?
The phone call ended up being a cornerstone of the prosecutions case, so If he had just allowed the bodies to be discovered next day and raised the possibility of a 3rd party assassin would the outcome at trial have been different ? I bet Bamber has nightmares over his naivety in inventing that phone call from Nevill.
There are lots of advantages & disadvantages of Bamber inventing the phone call.
The problem Bamber had was he was a farmer who had early morning starts. He must have been due to be the first person to arrive at WHF. Someone like Barbara Wilson may arrive mid morning if she was due in that day.
Bamber discovering the bodies in the morning is worse than creating a 4am siege situation outside WHF as he can't spend several hours insinuating Sheila to the police. It doesn't round the suspects down to two but surely Julie & the relatives would have reacted in the same way.
He could have gone straight to work on the farm & waited several hours for someone else to hopefully raise an alarm. But then people would ask why he didn't go to WHF or look for Nevill. Espescially if no one noticed a quiet WHF for a long time.
As it happened he invented the 4 second phone call which he says Nevill terminated & then left the phone off the hook so he couldn't ring back. Nevill around 30 minutes later spending at least 5 minutes ringing Chelmsford police, according to Bamber.
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One thing I can't fault Bamber for doing, was trying to call Nevill back after Nevill put the phone down.
However Nevill felt he had left enough information in these 4 seconds & Bamber would be ringing the WHF door bell soon.
So Nevill left the phone off the hook so Bamber couldn't ring back.
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It's no secret Nevill's call to Bamber only lasted 4 seconds. Bamber's own evidence was that Nevill said 11 words to him before putting the phone down.
The 11 words completed a sentence, rather than Nevill putting the phone down mid sentence. Suggesting it was Nevill's choice to put the phone down.
This is surprising as Nevill had made the big decision that he needed Bamber's help. Then spent up to 5 minutes ringing & waiting for Bamber to answer. So to just speak for 4 seconds & not give Bamber the chance to respond contradicts Nevill's decision.
According to many supporters & Bamber himself, Nevill also phoned Chelmsford police around half an hour after his phone call to Bamber. This call would have lasted at least 5 minutes, rather than 4 seconds.
The only answers for Nevill's 4 second call so far have been 'we weren't there' & 'it doesn't matter'.
A claim that Sheila ordered Nevill at rifle point to phone Bamber has also been made. However surely Nevill would have spent longer than 4 seconds persuading Bamber to go to WHF, in order to appease a 'crazy' Sheila holding him at rifle point.
Does anyone have any suggestions why Nevill only spoke for 4 seconds to Bamber & then put the phone down ?
"Sheilas gone crazy she's got a gun". I make that 8 words and I can say it in around 2 - 3 seconds.
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"Sheilas gone crazy she's got a gun". I make that 8 words and I can say it in around 2 - 3 seconds.
I thought Nevill also said 'please come over'.
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I thought Nevill also said 'please come over'.
Looks like I can't count! I meant to say "Sheilas gone crazy she has got a gun" = 8 words.
No, not according to to early testimony:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5723.msg202984#msg202984
If NB phoned and said "Please come over" then JB's actions thereafter are less convincing. He received a clear instruction to go over and there was no need for any faffing and dithering. However if NB said "Sheilas gone crazy she has got a gun" then this imo explains JB faffing and dithering ie trying to make further contact with NB to establish what he wanted doing etc.
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Nevill just spending 2-3 seconds saying 'Sheila's gone crazy & she's got the gun', then putting the phone down & leaving it off the hook ?
That is surely the most implausible phone call ever.
Saying 'please come over' is at least asking Bamber to do something. Bamber choosing not to do it.
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Nevill just spending 2-3 seconds saying 'Sheila's gone crazy & she's got the gun', then putting the phone down & leaving it off the hook ?
That is surely the most implausible phone call ever.
Saying 'please come over' is at least asking Bamber to do something. Bamber choosing not to do it.
All the physical evidence at soc supports "Sheilas gone crazy shes got a gun":
- NB managed to call JB and say "Sheilas gone crazy she has got a gun" before he heard the sound of gunshot and left handset on kitchen worktop to run upstairs.
- June's head was resting on her pillow when she was first shot as per blood stains and Prof MacDonell's report.
- Between NB hearing the sound of first gunshot and sustaining his first gsw, June sustained 5 entry gunshot wounds and possibly a 6th graze wound.
- NB was then shot twice in the face as he approached the bedroom from the landing. He retreated and was then shot in the back of the shoulder with a further gsw grazing his elbow/chest
All the physical evidence at soc by way of blood stains or lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks support this.
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Looks like I can't count! I meant to say "Sheilas gone crazy she has got a gun" = 8 words.
No, not according to to early testimony:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5723.msg202984#msg202984 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5723.msg202984#msg202984)
If NB phoned and said "Please come over" then JB's actions thereafter are less convincing. He received a clear instruction to go over and there was no need for any faffing and dithering. However if NB said "Sheilas gone crazy she has got a gun" then this imo explains JB faffing and dithering ie trying to make further contact with NB to establish what he wanted doing etc.
NB did say "Please come over...".... in this mythical call!
https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic (https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic)
Hope you're not going to reply with - "I don't believe a word of what Jeremy says after 32 years incarceration"!
Also verified by the JB's subsequent call to the cops...
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NB did say "Please come over...".... in this mythical call!
https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic (https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic)
Hope you're not going to reply with - "I don't believe a word of what Jeremy says after 32 years incarceration"!
Also verified by the JB's subsequent call to the cops...
Initial testimony should trump anything thereafter:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5723.msg202984#msg202984
Based on my correspondence with JB his case knowledge is p*** poor. Whether he's just thick or his mind has been scrambled over the years by possible PTSD, his long incarceration and some of his more cranky supporters I don't know.
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Initial testimony should trump anything thereafter:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5723.msg202984#msg202984
Based on my correspondence with JB his case knowledge is p*** poor. Whether he's just thick or his mind has been scrambled over the years by possible PTSD, his long incarceration and some of his more cranky supporters I don't know.
As you said, there is a chance Nevill only spent 2-3 seconds saying 'Sheila's gone crazy and she's got the gun'. Then put the phone down & left it off the hook.
Strangest phone call I've ever heard about.
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As you said, there is a chance Nevill only spent 2-3 seconds saying 'Sheila's gone crazy and she's got the gun'. Then put the phone down & left it off the hook.
Strangest phone call I've ever heard about.
Strange as in unusual yes. Unusual in that most households in the UK don't feature:
- a mentally unwell daughter
- firearms and ammunition readily available
- remote farmhouse
- a father who was secretive about his daughter's mental illness; a magistrate with low regard for the local police who may not have kept his firearms as recommended or stated by the law and terms of licence; and may have been growing opium poppies illegally on land he was responsible for.
Set against the background the call is not strange and the physical evidence found at soc supports the phone call.
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All the physical evidence at soc supports "Sheilas gone crazy shes got a gun":
- NB managed to call JB and say "Sheilas gone crazy she has got a gun" before he heard the sound of gunshot and left handset on kitchen worktop to run upstairs.
- June's head was resting on her pillow when she was first shot as per blood stains and Prof MacDonell's report.
- Between NB hearing the sound of first gunshot and sustaining his first gsw, June sustained 5 entry gunshot wounds and possibly a 6th graze wound.
- NB was then shot twice in the face as he approached the bedroom from the landing. He retreated and was then shot in the back of the shoulder with a further gsw grazing his elbow/chest
All the physical evidence at soc by way of blood stains or lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks support this.
As usual you ignore the very obvious bullet casings which were found on the master bedroom floor proving that both Nevill and June were shot there and not on the stairs. There is no evidence Nevil phoned anyone so claiming he heard a shot while doing so is merely your own speculation.
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As usual you ignore the very obvious bullet casings which were found on the master bedroom floor proving that both Nevill and June were shot there and not on the stairs. There is no evidence Nevil phoned anyone so claiming he heard a shot while doing so is merely your own speculation.
It has always been patently obvious why Jeremy Bamber left the phone off the hook after making his escape from the farmhouse. On arriving back at Bourtree Cottage all he had to do was answer the call he had himself made minutes earlier knowing that the telephone system registers units after the call has been answered and not the length of time it has been ringing. In doing so he had attempted to give himself an alibi while providing evidence that someone did in fact telephone Bourtree Cottage.
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It has always been patently obvious why Jeremy Bamber left the phone off the hook after making his escape from the farmhouse. On arriving back at Bourtree Cottage all he had to do was answer the call he had himself made minutes earlier knowing that the telephone system registers units after the call has been answered and not the length of time it has been ringing. In doing so he had attempted to give himself an alibi while providing evidence that someone did in fact telephone Bourtree Cottage.
I don't understand how this would provide JB with an alibi? There's no direct evidence anyone made a call from WHF to Bourtree cottage. Unfortunately the sort of telephone billing we all know today didn't exist then.
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I don't understand how this would provide JB with an alibi? There's no direct evidence anyone made a call from WHF to Bourtree cottage. Unfortunately the sort of telephone billing we all know today didn't exist then.
BT could tell that a call had been made regardless of the billing. Thing is, the call made from WHF was never cancelled, the exchange ended the call automatically. Thus why JB couldn't phone out initially after answering the call he instigated earlier from the farm.
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Which casings do you believe pertain to June's gsw's and which ones to NB?
As identified by forensics. I have no reason to dispute them.
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BT could tell that a call had been made regardless of the billing.
The GPO could only say the line was open.
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The GPO could only say the line was open.
Because the handset was off the cradle. And it was BT and not the GPO in Aug 1985.
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BT could tell that a call had been made regardless of the billing. Thing is, the call made from WHF was never cancelled, the exchange ended the call automatically. Thus why JB couldn't phone out initially after answering the call he instigated earlier from the farm.
People forget that back in 1985 the exchange registered call units which were metered just like your electricity bill is today. If you needed to make a long distance call you dialled 100 and the operator put you through.
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As identified by forensics. I have no reason to dispute them.
Did "forensics" draw up the diagram? I thought the author was unknown?
"Forensics" haven't identified which casings pertain to each of June and NB? "Forensics" have lumped together DRH 3, 4, 7, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12 and 43 under the heading "Ralph and June first episode" with a question mark by DRH 13 and 14 "June second episode". "Forensics" have associated exited/spent bullets 5, 9, 35 and 35 all with June. The pathologist identified 7 entry gsw's and 3 exit gsw's on June. He also identified a bruise/graze to June's chest possibly caused by a bullet ricochet but it appears inconclusive whether this was a bullet ricochet from an entry/exit wound or an 8th gsw effectively a graze only wound unrelated to any entry/exit wounds. If you stand by the diagram then this means all 4 spent bullets pertain to June's gsw's and is a problem for the guilty camp in terms of the spent bullet relating to NB's graze wound to his elbow/chest and a total of 8 casings need allocating to June.
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Because the handset was off the cradle. And it was BT and not the GPO in Aug 1985.
I'm not sure if the op was able to distinguish between whether a call had been made and the handset off the cradle or the cradle had smiply been lifted from the handset and left on the kitchen top. Yes it was BT in Aug 1985 but police records pertaining to the case refer to GPO.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=177.0;attach=423
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I'm not sure if the op was able to distinguish between whether a call had been made and the handset off the cradle or the cradle had smiply been lifted from the handset and left on the kitchen top. Yes it was BT in Aug 1985 but police records pertaining to the case refer to GPO.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=177.0;attach=423
Just consider for a moment that Nevill did telephone Jeremy and four seconds into the call he was distracted by some urgency, do you really think for a moment that he would have cancelled the call and then left the handset off the cradle effectively preventing any incoming calls from being received?
Personally, I can see no logic to that particular scenario and that is why Jeremy Bamber's hastily concocted story is so woefully inadequate. Had Nevill actually telephoned Jeremy and been distracted he would have left the telephone handset on the kitchen counter without cancelling the call. In such an event then Jeremy would have heard much more than the few seconds he claimed to have heard.
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Just consider for a moment that Nevill did telephone Jeremy and four seconds into the call he was distracted by some urgency, do you really think for a moment that he would have cancelled the call and then left the handset off the cradle effectively preventing any incoming calls from being received?
Personally, I can see no logic to that particular scenario and that is why Jeremy Bamber's hastily concocted story is so woefully inadequate. Had Nevill actually telephoned Jeremy and been distracted he would have left the telephone handset on the kitchen counter without cancelling the call. In such an event then Jeremy would have heard much more than the few seconds he claimed to have heard.
That is a possibility.
There is a very slim chance that after waiting up to 5 minutes for Bamber to answer, Nevill got distracted at the exact same time Bamber did answer the phone. The distraction was sufficient for Nevill to stop talking after 8/11 words & 2 - 4 seconds.
Nevill would have then put the phone down on the surface board which leaves the line open. Or put the phone back on the hook.
He wouldn't put the phone back on the hook and then take it straight off again.Bamber said he wanted more information & tried to call back.
As mentioned, Nevill had completed a 8/11 word sentence so it is likely he was not distracted.
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Just consider for a moment that Nevill did telephone Jeremy and four seconds into the call he was distracted by some urgency, do you really think for a moment that he would have cancelled the call and then left the handset off the cradle effectively preventing any incoming calls from being received?
Personally, I can see no logic to that particular scenario and that is why Jeremy Bamber's hastily concocted story is so woefully inadequate. Had Nevill actually telephoned Jeremy and been distracted he would have left the telephone handset on the kitchen counter without cancelling the call. In such an event then Jeremy would have heard much more than the few seconds he claimed to have heard.
As far as I know there's no evidence a call was made from WHF let alone cancelled.