UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: jassi on November 21, 2017, 06:11:34 PM
-
When Operation Grange was set up, how would they have conducted the review stage?
Presumably the team of 30 would contain a number of low-grade data inputers & the like, so who would actually review the material? Would it be the SIO alone, or working with a small team?
If several people were involved, how would they determine what was significant and worth pursuing further?
I’ve never seen a discussion on how they would tackle the problem
261
-
When Operation Grange was set up, how would they have conducted the review stage?
Presumably the team of 30 would contain a number of low-grade data inputers & the like, so who would actually review the material? Would it be the SIO alone, or working with a small team?
If several people were involved, how would they determine what was significant and worth pursuing further?
I’ve never seen a discussion on how they would tackle the problem
I guess the start point would be to have everything that is not in English translated into English then enter every last piece of data into suitable computer using your software package of choice to make data manipulation easier.
All that is no mean achievement in its own right, demanding manhours to the power of lots.
-
It says in the remit that it will be overseen through the Gold Group management structure. A Gold Commander seems to be a bit like a General. He decides what the strategy should be.
The Silver Commander decides what tactics should be used and the Bronze Commander carries out the tasks identified by the Silver Commander. The Bronze Commander(s) controls and directs the resources. Each level knows what the level above them is trying to achieve.
The 'resources' will include personnel. They will be told only what they need to know to achieve whatever task they have been given, in my opinion.
https://www.app.college.police.uk/app-content/operations/command-and-control/command-structures/
I have two names who were involved at the beginning. Foy would be higher in the structure than Redwood. ;
Commander Simon Foy Head of Homicide (now retired)
DCI Redwood
-
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DPLhwNDUMAAwEar.jpg:large)
-
Thanks, Pathfinder, that was the name I couldn't remember. So originally the Command Structure may have looked like this;
No 1 Simon Foy
No 2 Hamish Campbell
No 3 Andy Redwood.
-
Thanks, Pathfinder, that was the name I couldn't remember. So originally the Command Structure may have looked like this;
No 1 Simon Foy
No 2 Hamish Campbell
No 3 Andy Redwood.
"Every police investigation or review of a serious crime has an investigation co-ordinator, known as the Senior Investigating Officer (SIO), and a deputy, called the Investigating Officer (IO). The role of the SIO is to set an investigation strategy and to decide and obtain the resources he needs to do the work required – in this case, a review. The job of the IO is basically to carry out the agreed strategy and to direct operations.
Sir Paul Stephenson decided to appoint one Hamish Campbell as the SIO, with an additional requirement for the SIO to present his report to one Simon Foy. Andy Redwood, a Detective Chief Inspector, was appointed as the IO. Before long, Campbell and Redwood determined that they would need a staff of around 35 to 40 to carry out the review".
OG REmit etc in here: http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/57jan12/Metropolitan_04_01_2012.htm
-
"Every police investigation or review of a serious crime has an investigation co-ordinator, known as the Senior Investigating Officer (SIO), and a deputy, called the Investigating Officer (IO). The role of the SIO is to set an investigation strategy and to decide and obtain the resources he needs to do the work required – in this case, a review. The job of the IO is basically to carry out the agreed strategy and to direct operations.
Sir Paul Stephenson decided to appoint one Hamish Campbell as the SIO, with an additional requirement for the SIO to present his report to one Simon Foy. Andy Redwood, a Detective Chief Inspector, was appointed as the IO. Before long, Campbell and Redwood determined that they would need a staff of around 35 to 40 to carry out theOG REmit etc in here:
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/57jan12/Metropolitan_04_01_2012.htm
That's the key bit, I think. Campbell's job, imo, was to find and carry out investigative opportunities within the evidence they had gathered together. Because of these words "as if the abduction occurred in the UK" it can be assumed that they would only be following leads relating to an abduction.
The question is, who decided that it was an abduction and why? This is Foy's position in the hierarchy;
Name: Commander Simon Foy
Position: Head of Homicide and Serious Crime Command, Specialist Crime Directorate
Key responsibilities: Strategic responsibility for the investigation of homicides and other serious crimes in London.
He would report to;
Name: Deputy Assistant Commissioner Janet Williams
Position: Head of Intelligence and Covert Policing, Specialist Crime Directorate
Key responsibilities: SCD Operational Command of Covert Policing, Homicide, Child Abuse, Fraud, Extradition, Drugs Directorate, Kidnap, E-Crime, Human Trafficking, MIB, Operation Information Services, Trident, Shootings, Flying Squad. Gold command major high profile investigations. She is also Chair of Corporate Tasking and ACPO lead for e-crime.
She reported to;
Assistant Commissioner John Yates
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20081107214057/http://www.met.police.uk/scd/about/leadership.htm
John Yates' head rolled;
He resigned in July 2011 over criticism of a July 2009 review he carried out of the 2006 police investigation of the News of the World royal phone hacking scandal.
At present A C Mark Rowley appears to have replaced John Yates.
https://www.met.police.uk/globalassets/foi-media/who_we_are_and_what_we_do/corporate/mps_organisational_chart_october2017.pdf
-
That's the key bit, I think. Campbell's job, imo, was to find and carry out investigative opportunities within the evidence they had gathered together. Because of these words "as if the abduction occurred in the UK" it can be assumed that they would only be following leads relating to an abduction.
The question is, who decided that it was an abduction and why? This is Foy's position in the hierarchy;
Name: Commander Simon Foy
Position: Head of Homicide and Serious Crime Command, Specialist Crime Directorate
Key responsibilities: Strategic responsibility for the investigation of homicides and other serious crimes in London.
He would report to;
Name: Deputy Assistant Commissioner Janet Williams
Position: Head of Intelligence and Covert Policing, Specialist Crime Directorate
Key responsibilities: SCD Operational Command of Covert Policing, Homicide, Child Abuse, Fraud, Extradition, Drugs Directorate, Kidnap, E-Crime, Human Trafficking, MIB, Operation Information Services, Trident, Shootings, Flying Squad. Gold command major high profile investigations. She is also Chair of Corporate Tasking and ACPO lead for e-crime.
She reported to;
Assistant Commissioner John Yates
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20081107214057/http://www.met.police.uk/scd/about/leadership.htm
John Yates' head rolled;
He resigned in July 2011 over criticism of a July 2009 review he carried out of the 2006 police investigation of the News of the World royal phone hacking scandal.
At present A C Mark Rowley appears to have replaced John Yates.
https://www.met.police.uk/globalassets/foi-media/who_we_are_and_what_we_do/corporate/mps_organisational_chart_october2017.pdf
Is this something that might go as high as the Home Office ?
As they were ordering a review, they were likely to want input into the terms of reference.
Certainly sounds as if it would be a high-level decision. IMO
Interesting also that Redwood and later Wall were quite low in the decision-making process.
-
Is this something that might go as high as the Home Office ?
As they were ordering a review, they were likely to want input into the terms of reference.
Certainly sounds as if it would be a high-level decision. IMO
Interesting also that Redwood and later Wall were quite low in the decision-making process.
The Gold Command structure doesn't always include all 3 elements (GSB), but it can and it can also include very high level input;
Depending on the needs of the situation, the command structure may or may not include all elements of GSB. Similarly, it may also involve local or basic command unit police officers and staff, partner agencies and, ultimately, the government.
https://www.app.college.police.uk/app-content/operations/command-and-control/command-structures/
Operation Grange was run under this structure, so there was the possibility of governmental involvement. DCI Redwood wasn't, in my opinion, even Amaral's equivalent, that was probably Campbell.
-
That's the key bit, I think. Campbell's job, imo, was to find and carry out investigative opportunities within the evidence they had gathered together. Because of these words "as if the abduction occurred in the UK" it can be assumed that they would only be following leads relating to an abduction.
The question is, who decided that it was an abduction and why? This is Foy's position in the hierarchy;
Name: Commander Simon Foy
Position: Head of Homicide and Serious Crime Command, Specialist Crime Directorate
Key responsibilities: Strategic responsibility for the investigation of homicides and other serious crimes in London.
He would report to;
Name: Deputy Assistant Commissioner Janet Williams
Position: Head of Intelligence and Covert Policing, Specialist Crime Directorate
Key responsibilities: SCD Operational Command of Covert Policing, Homicide, Child Abuse, Fraud, Extradition, Drugs Directorate, Kidnap, E-Crime, Human Trafficking, MIB, Operation Information Services, Trident, Shootings, Flying Squad. Gold command major high profile investigations. She is also Chair of Corporate Tasking and ACPO lead for e-crime.
She reported to;
Assistant Commissioner John Yates
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20081107214057/http://www.met.police.uk/scd/about/leadership.htm
John Yates' head rolled;
He resigned in July 2011 over criticism of a July 2009 review he carried out of the 2006 police investigation of the News of the World royal phone hacking scandal.
At present A C Mark Rowley appears to have replaced John Yates.
https://www.met.police.uk/globalassets/foi-media/who_we_are_and_what_we_do/corporate/mps_organisational_chart_october2017.pdf
I have always held the view that it was an unfortunate not to mention careless typo as it does not jibe [or jive if you prefer] with other terminology used in the blurb put out by The MPS.
For instance "disappearance" and "a review of the whole of the investigations...."
-
I have always held the view that it was an unfortunate not to mention careless typo as it does not jibe [or jive if you prefer] with other terminology used in the blurb put out by The MPS.
For instance "disappearance" and "a review of the whole of the investigations...."
Colin Sutton, allegedly, was warned of the restrictive remit. If he hadn't been warned, when would he have been told? The fact that he was warned suggests he wouldn't have been told until after he accepted the job.
So how many people knew that the investigation was going to be restricted before they signed up for it?
The DCI who took it on seems an odd choice. I can find no details of his expertise or previous successes. He is now working here;
https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/competition-and-markets-authority
In the Cartels and Criminal Group as a Deputy Team Leader.
-
Colin Sutton, allegedly, was warned of the restrictive remit. If he hadn't been warned, when would he have been told? The fact that he was warned suggests he wouldn't have been told until after he accepted the job.
So how many people knew that the investigation was going to be restricted before they signed up for it?
The DCI who took it on seems an odd choice. I can find no details of his expertise or previous successes. He is now working here;
https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/competition-and-markets-authority
In the Cartels and Criminal Group as a Deputy Team Leader.
Rightly or wrongly I view Colin Sutton as just another "Major Bob" who sits on a red sofa in a TV studio occasionally and gives quotes to the media.
Anyway the killer is that in this instance The Met are only gofers for the PJ so how do they swing it?
-
Rightly or wrongly I view Colin Sutton as just another "Major Bob" who sits on a red sofa in a TV studio occasionally and gives quotes to the media.
Anyway the killer is that in this instance The Met are only gofers for the PJ so how do they swing it?
I agree with both opinions you've expressed in your post, Alice.
-
To confirm what games police can play.
"They appealed for information about a grey or silver car - Pacteau had a grey Ford Focus - seen driving around the roads between Milngavie and Drymen, north of the city, between 11am and 3pm on the Monday but they did not link it to Pacteau and repeatedly stressed he was not a suspect.
It was almost as if the police were trying to lull him into a false sense of security that he was not the focus of their investigation, even though he was the last confirmed person to have seen the missing woman alive when he walked beside her outside the nightclub."
"A sniffer dog used to seek out cadavers confirmed a body had been in Pacteau’s car and forensic tests established it had been that of Ms Buckley."
Karen Buckley: How Alexander Pacteau killed her and tried to destroy her body
Major police operation traced the killer’s movements in the days after the murder
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/karen-buckley-how-alexander-pacteau-killed-her-and-tried-to-destroy-her-body-1.2313484
-
Rightly or wrongly I view Colin Sutton as just another "Major Bob" who sits on a red sofa in a TV studio occasionally and gives quotes to the media.
Anyway the killer is that in this instance The Met are only gofers for the PJ so how do they swing it?
Leaving Sutton aside, then;
Redwood seems to have appeared out of nowhere in May 2009 when he joined the Met. I don't know where he worked before that. I don't know what he did between May 2009 and May 2011. If he's a seasoned detective I can find no record of it. The Met don't appear to have put their finest on this job. they appear to have put someone with no experience. Operation Grange seems to be his only major case.
Surely there were other DCI's who had experience and expertise?
-
Leaving Sutton aside, then;
Redwood seems to have appeared out of nowhere in May 2009 when he joined the Met. I don't know where he worked before that. I don't know what he did between May 2009 and May 2011. If he's a seasoned detective I can find no record of it. The Met don't appear to have put their finest on this job. they appear to have put someone with no experience. Operation Grange seems to be his only major case.
Surely there were other DCI's who had experience and expertise?
Although high profile, it started off as very much a cold case review. Perhaps more able and ambitious officers didn't want to take it and it fell to a less officer, winding down towards retirement.
A safe pair of hands who could be expected to do as he was told and not rock the boat, perhaps.
-
Leaving Sutton aside, then;
Redwood seems to have appeared out of nowhere in May 2009 when he joined the Met. I don't know where he worked before that. I don't know what he did between May 2009 and May 2011. If he's a seasoned detective I can find no record of it. The Met don't appear to have put their finest on this job. they appear to have put someone with no experience. Operation Grange seems to be his only major case.
Surely there were other DCI's who had experience and expertise?
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/madeleine-mccann-operation-grange-leader-andy-redwood-quit-effort-find-maddie-1478254
DCI Redwood describes it as:
"Announcing his retirement, Redwood said: "After careful consideration and a full and rewarding career in the Met the time is right for me to move on". What ever that may mean.
We have three options as I see it. 1)The brass put him in charge because he was the right bloke for the task that was to be executed without fear or favour or 2) "he'll do, he is a lifer just about to pull his pension so he will not rock the boat when we tell him the answer he is to find" or 3) he has just finished a job and has only a while to go to retirement so keephim occupied kicking off OG on someone elses budget [a managers dream]. As the Met are not in charge and the Portuguese are running their own case it would seem to me there would be a potential danger of OG saying "right ma'am nothing suspicious here" [becuase it is their script] then the PJ turn up the real goods two days later in the case of 2 above.
I don't buy it.
-
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/madeleine-mccann-operation-grange-leader-andy-redwood-quit-effort-find-maddie-1478254
DCI Redwood describes it as:
"Announcing his retirement, Redwood said: "After careful consideration and a full and rewarding career in the Met the time is right for me to move on". What ever that may mean.
We have three options as I see it. 1)The brass put him in charge because he was the right bloke for the task that was to be executed without fear or favour or 2) "he'll do, he is a lifer just about to pull his pension so he will not rock the boat when we tell him the answer he is to find" or 3) he has just finished a job and has only a while to go to retirement so keephim occupied kicking off OG on someone elses budget [a managers dream]. As the Met are not in charge and the Portuguese are running their own case it would seem to me there would be a potential danger of OG saying "right ma'am nothing suspicious here" [becuase it is their script] then the PJ turn up the real goods two days later in the case of 2 above.
I don't buy it.
My opinion is that SY are running the show...but saying little so as not to dent the Portuguese pride
-
My opinion is that SY are running the show...but saying little so as not to dent the Portuguese pride
Given that The MPS have no powers in the country where the crime ,if any, was committed perhaps you would like to explain to the forum at large just how you arrive at that startling conclusion, quoting the appropriate legislation where necessary.
-
Given that The MPS have no powers in the country where the crime ,if any, was committed perhaps you would like to explain to the forum at large just how you arrive at that startling conclusion, quoting the appropriate legislation where necessary.
Yes...they direct the investigation and the Portuguese go along with it....rubber stamp it...all my opinion of course
-
Given that The MPS have no powers in the country where the crime ,if any, was committed perhaps you would like to explain to the forum at large just how you arrive at that startling conclusion, quoting the appropriate legislation where necessary.
2nd that, also the remit tells us that the MPS have no jurisdiction.
Any defence would have a field day if it ever got to court in Portugal imo,
-
Yes...they direct the investigation and the Portuguese go along with it....rubber stamp it...all my opinion of course
Agree there, it certainly didn't seem like the Portuguese were interested in the landscaping imo.
-
2nd that, also the remit tells us that the MPS have no jurisdiction.
Any defence would have a field day if it ever got to court in Portugal imo,
No field day for the defence...all protocols complied with...hence the ilors..imo
-
Yes...they direct the investigation and the Portuguese go along with it....rubber stamp it...all my opinion of course
How does that work?
You are good at the nebulous stuff (imo) but not much good at the nuts and bolts (imo).
So give it another go that's credible.
-
How does that work?
You are good at the nebulous stuff (imo) but not much good at the nuts and bolts (imo).
So give it another go that's credible. Unless you are just wumming to start a flame war on this thread as well.
Barrier seems to understand
SY want to investigate
Portuguese can't reopen the case without new evidence....
So they come up with tractor man....and rapidly drop him in order to accommodate SY...
Imo SY are running the show with the co operation of the PJ
-
No field day for the defence...all protocols complied with...hence the ilors..imo
The MPS have no jurisdiction, how therefore could (and this is hypothetical) any evidence and if its the crucial piece collected by them be legit? also not forgetting in Portugal and it seems likely all counties abroad they have no more rights than a civilian.
-
The MPS have no jurisdiction, how therefore could (and this is hypothetical) any evidence and if its the crucial piece collected by them be legit?
As long as it's collected by due protocol they simply hand the evidence to the pj
-
Although high profile, it started off as very much a cold case review. Perhaps more able and ambitious officers didn't want to take it and it fell to a less officer, winding down towards retirement.
A safe pair of hands who could be expected to do as he was told and not rock the boat, perhaps.
Hamish Campbell had a long career with the Met. He joined in 1974 and left in May 2013. He attended the same university as Redwood and gained the same degree. Campbell's was gained in 1995-1997. I don't know when Redwood got his. In January 2009 he joined the Homicide and Serious Crime Command. In May of the same year Redwood joined that department too.
In December 1999 Campbell was appointed as the investigating officer on the Jill Dando case, Operation Oxborough. At the time the investigation was growing cold after seven months. The new team got a result; Barry Bulsara was arrested and convicted.
Campbell retired in May 2013, Redwood in December 2014. It seems Nicola Wall replaced Campbell as the Senior Investigating Officer, despite being a DCI as opposed to Campbell's rank of DCS. I wonder if she has an Investigating Officer to replace Redwood or if that position has become redundant?
-
Barrier seems to understand
SY want to investigate
Portuguese can't reopen the case without new evidence....
So they come up with tractor man....and rapidly drop him in order to accommodate SY...
Imo SY are running the show with the co operation of the PJ
You never know?
As the investigation develops it is possible Scotland Yard may wish certain persons of interest to be brought in for questioning or to provide fresh witness statements.
While it would be the home police force that carried out such activities, the Met has already requested that a small team of British officers are on the ground to observe and assist in that process.
In preparation for today’s announcement, senior officers from Operation Grange made 16 visits to Portugal in order to ensure that any potential difficulties were ironed out.
If a British suspect is ever charged with abduction or murder in the case, the law allows them to be tried at the Old Bailey in London, even if the alleged crime took place overseas.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/10159992/Madeleine-McCann-How-the-British-led-investigation-will-operate-overseas.html
-
Barrier seems to understand
SY want to investigate
Portuguese can't reopen the case without new evidence....
So they come up with tractor man....and rapidly drop him in order to accommodate SY...
Imo SY are running the show with the co operation of the PJ
Yes and has far as I can see,the Portuguese duly let OG have their rope and SY are doing their utmost too use it on themselves.All imo of course,and the cost to the Portuguese?
-
You never know?
As the investigation develops it is possible Scotland Yard may wish certain persons of interest to be brought in for questioning or to provide fresh witness statements.
While it would be the home police force that carried out such activities, the Met has already requested that a small team of British officers are on the ground to observe and assist in that process.
In preparation for today’s announcement, senior officers from Operation Grange made 16 visits to Portugal in order to ensure that any potential difficulties were ironed out.
If a British suspect is ever charged with abduction or murder in the case, the law allows them to be tried at the Old Bailey in London, even if the alleged crime took place overseas.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/10159992/Madeleine-McCann-How-the-British-led-investigation-will-operate-overseas.html
Theres no Brit in the frame though is there?
-
Not that we know of at present.
-
Yes and has far as I can see,the Portuguese duly let OG have their rope and SY are doing their utmost too use it on themselves.All imo of course,and the cost to the Portuguese?
I don't understand what you mean when you say:" ... the Portuguese duly let OG have their rope and SY are doing their utmost too use it on themselves."
An explanation would be helpful.
-
My opinion is that SY are running the show...but saying little so as not to dent the Portuguese pride
The thread isn't about who is 'running the show', it's about how the Operation Grange investigative review was organised. .
-
I don't understand what you mean when you say:" ... the Portuguese duly let OG have their rope and SY are doing their utmost too use it on themselves."
An explanation would be helpful.
The digs,it was purley on the say so of OG imo,how successful were they? and what was the point of the questioning after.Og went looking for evidence where none existed imo.
-
Theres no Brit in the frame though is there?
Well there were 12 British persons of interest. Can we name any?
"We are satisfied that our review has now progressed to a position where we have identified 38 persons of interest. These individuals are from a number of European countries and we are now at an advanced stage of dialogue with each country.
Over the coming months we will be conducting assertive enquiries, with the assistance of host countries to establish more information about the individuals concerned and any potential involvement.
Twelve of the persons of interest are UK Nationals who we believe were in Portugal at the time Madeleine went missing."
http://portugalresident.com/met-police-launches-full-investigation-into-madeleine-case
-
An interesting nugget of information here;
Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood. This homicide investigator [Homicide and Serious Crime Command] has chosen for his team experienced investigators who are close to the end of their careers.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/49may11/DIARIO_DE_NOTCIAS_20_05_2011.htm
Three months after the Met form Operation Grange;
A Metropolitan Police spokesman said: "MPS officers travelled to Portugal at the beginning of August and had their first formal meeting with Portuguese authorities to discuss ways to progress the investigative review."
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/53sep11/PRESS_ASSOCIATION_08_09_2011.htm
-
An interesting nugget of information here;
Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood. This homicide investigator [Homicide and Serious Crime Command] has chosen for his team experienced investigators who are close to the end of their careers.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/49may11/DIARIO_DE_NOTCIAS_20_05_2011.htm
Three months after the Met form Operation Grange;
A Metropolitan Police spokesman said: "MPS officers travelled to Portugal at the beginning of August and had their first formal meeting with Portuguese authorities to discuss ways to progress the investigative review."
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/53sep11/PRESS_ASSOCIATION_08_09_2011.htm
See my option 3 in an earler post ?{)(**
-
See my option 3 in an earler post ?{)(**
It probably saved paying out redundancy money at a time when the Met were being asked to cut costs.
-
I wonder who said that and why? I can find no record of Redwood taking part in any other investigation than Operation Grange.
Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood, of the Met?s Homicide and Serious Crime Command, who has been dubbed Britain?s top cold case detective.
://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/53sep11/EXPRESS_09_09_2011.htm
POLICE have finally admitted Madeleine McCann was abducted four years ago........But only now have detectives put in writing that her case is one of abduction. ........The Met at first refused to release paperwork under the Freedom of Information Act on the grounds it would “adversely harm the investigation”. ..................But, after an appeal, police finally handed over details to the Daily Star Sunday last week after a wait of nearly three months.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/56dec11/STAR_18_12_2011.htm
Scotland Yard’s 37-strong team includes three detective inspectors and five detective sergeants.....There are also 19 detective constables on the case under the lead of Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood......And three of the country’s top cold case officers have been brought in.......Along with Commander Simon Foy, Mr Redwood and Detective Inspector Tim Dobson, Mr Campbell is part of a “Gold Group” monitoring the review.The group has met eight times since it began last May to discuss progress.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/57jan12/STAR_29_01_2012.htm
SCOTLAND YARD detectives are poised to interview the so-called Tapas Seven as their inquiry into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann steps up a gear. ........A Yard spokesman declined to say who would be interviewed and when. “We are not going into that level of details,” he said. “We are not at the stage of speaking to individuals yet. We are laying the groundwork.”
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/58feb12/EXPRESS_05_02_2012.htm
So as at February 2012 no interviews had been conducted, it is suggested.
-
Considering all the Portuguese documents that they would have needed to get translated before they could begin to read and evaluate the evidence, I'm surprised they were in any position to make such a statement by December 2011
-
Considering all the Portuguese documents that they would have needed to get translated before they could begin to read and evaluate the evidence, I'm surprised they were in any position to make such a statement by December 2011
I think the Star is referring to the remit which it managed to prise out of the Met. It seems it was written without anyone at all being interviewed.
-
During the first Panorama programme about the case it emerged that the PJ had been reviewing the case using a team in Porto. They had found nothing that would justify reopening it. Redwood said his team were working to provide existing or new evidence to the PJ which would lead them to reopen it. It seems that was important.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/60april12/PANORAMA_20_04_2012.htm
Interestingly;
Throughout the course of the review officers have been in close contact with the McCann family who have been assigned a Family Liaison Officer as is standard in accordance with national family liaison policy.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/60april12/MetropolitanPolice_25_04_2012.htm
On 12th May 2012 The Met released an age progression image of Madeleine and appealed for information;
“If you know where Madeleine McCann is now or you have new direct information/evidence about what has happened to her then please contact us.
“The second point of appeal today is in relation to those who were at the resort of Praia da Luz between 28 April and 3 May 2007. If you were either on holiday or in residence in the resort during this period, particularly in the vicinity of the Ocean Club, and you have not been spoken to by police either here or in Portugal then please call us
[DCI Redwood]
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/60april12/MetropolitanPolice_25_04_2012.htm
-
And three of the country’s top cold case officers have been brought in.
The three, from the Metropolitan Police’s Murder Review Group, are assisting the main Operation Grange team reviewing the Madeleine case files.
The combined salaries of the team total more than £1.3million with thousands also being spent following up leads, including at least four trips abroad.
The Met has vowed there will be no limits to the probe, which is being funded through a grant from the Home Office.
Already this year the cold case squad has seen Gary Dobson, 36, and David Norris, 35, brought to justice over the 1993 murder of black teenager Stephen Lawrence.
Along with Commander Simon Foy, Mr Redwood and Detective Inspector Tim Dobson, Mr Campbell is part of a “Gold Group” monitoring the review.The group has met eight times since it began last May to discuss progress.
A spokesman for the Met said: “A Major Investigation Team is assigned to Operation Grange. Staff numbers are open to change depending on the needs of the review.”
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/232610/Cold-case-team-in-Madeleine-McCann-hunt
In responding to a Freedom of Information request, the Met said: “A major investigation team is assigned to Operation Grange.
“This is made up of one detective chief inspector, three detective inspectors, five detective sergeants, 19 detective constables, six police support staff.
“The MIT is assisted by three murder review group officers.
“Staff numbers are open to change depending on the needs of the review.
“The MIT also continues to work on its existing outstanding homicide cases.”
17 May 2013
martinbrunt @skymartinbrunt
#mccann Scot Yard says it has identified “more than a handful” of suspects for murder of Madeleine McCann in its review of Portuguese case
http://madeleinemccann.org/blog/2014/04/20/met-police-review-jan-to-may-2013/
-
And three of the country’s top cold case officers have been brought in.
The three, from the Metropolitan Police’s Murder Review Group, are assisting the main Operation Grange team reviewing the Madeleine case files.
The combined salaries of the team total more than £1.3million with thousands also being spent following up leads, including at least four trips abroad.
The Met has vowed there will be no limits to the probe, which is being funded through a grant from the Home Office.
Already this year the cold case squad has seen Gary Dobson, 36, and David Norris, 35, brought to justice over the 1993 murder of black teenager Stephen Lawrence.
Along with Commander Simon Foy, Mr Redwood and Detective Inspector Tim Dobson, Mr Campbell is part of a “Gold Group” monitoring the review.The group has met eight times since it began last May to discuss progress.
A spokesman for the Met said: “A Major Investigation Team is assigned to Operation Grange. Staff numbers are open to change depending on the needs of the review.”
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/232610/Cold-case-team-in-Madeleine-McCann-hunt
In responding to a Freedom of Information request, the Met said: “A major investigation team is assigned to Operation Grange.
“This is made up of one detective chief inspector, three detective inspectors, five detective sergeants, 19 detective constables, six police support staff.
“The MIT is assisted by three murder review group officers.
“Staff numbers are open to change depending on the needs of the review.
“The MIT also continues to work on its existing outstanding homicide cases.”
17 May 2013
martinbrunt @skymartinbrunt
#mccann Scot Yard says it has identified “more than a handful” of suspects for murder of Madeleine McCann in its review of Portuguese case
http://madeleinemccann.org/blog/2014/04/20/met-police-review-jan-to-may-2013/
-
And three of the country’s top cold case officers have been brought in.
The three, from the Metropolitan Police’s Murder Review Group, are assisting the main Operation Grange team reviewing the Madeleine case files.
The combined salaries of the team total more than £1.3million with thousands also being spent following up leads, including at least four trips abroad.
The Met has vowed there will be no limits to the probe, which is being funded through a grant from the Home Office.
Already this year the cold case squad has seen Gary Dobson, 36, and David Norris, 35, brought to justice over the 1993 murder of black teenager Stephen Lawrence.
Along with Commander Simon Foy, Mr Redwood and Detective Inspector Tim Dobson, Mr Campbell is part of a “Gold Group” monitoring the review.The group has met eight times since it began last May to discuss progress.
A spokesman for the Met said: “A Major Investigation Team is assigned to Operation Grange. Staff numbers are open to change depending on the needs of the review.”
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/232610/Cold-case-team-in-Madeleine-McCann-hunt
In responding to a Freedom of Information request, the Met said: “A major investigation team is assigned to Operation Grange.
“This is made up of one detective chief inspector, three detective inspectors, five detective sergeants, 19 detective constables, six police support staff.
“The MIT is assisted by three murder review group officers.
“Staff numbers are open to change depending on the needs of the review.
“The MIT also continues to work on its existing outstanding homicide cases.”
17 May 2013
martinbrunt @skymartinbrunt
#mccann Scot Yard says it has identified “more than a handful” of suspects for murder of Madeleine McCann in its review of Portuguese case
http://madeleinemccann.org/blog/2014/04/20/met-police-review-jan-to-may-2013/
So by May 2013, OG are confident that they are dealing with a case of murder.
-
Lat's hope that Operation Grange manage to keep tracks on all the McCann case evidence;
The Metropolitan Police has admitted losing 13 unsolved murder files and is investigating whether they were destroyed by ‘corrupt detectives’
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3803491/Met-Police-admit-files-13-unsolved-murders-vanished-victims-families-remain-unaware-following-corrupt-detective-probe-wake-Steven-Lawrence-case.html#ixzz4zGoMBXc4
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
-
Right so we have a squad of officers a large number of whom are coming up to retirement [allegedly].
That leads to a few possiblities
1) Don't rock the boat.
2) Tread water until demob day.
3) Coming up to retirement => having been round the block a few times and less likely to be gullible.
We have a command structure and a job number to book to.
Translation of documents complete and data entered into computer.
Next move?
-
Right so we have a squad of officers a large number of whom are coming up to retirement [allegedly].
That leads to a few possiblities
1) Don't rock the boat.
2) Tread water until demob day.
3) Coming up to retirement => having been round the block a few times and less likely to be gullible.
We have a command structure and a job number to book to.
Translation of documents complete and data entered into computer.
Next move?
4 Press start button and generate hundreds of computer-generated 'persons of interest'
5 Conduct interviews and enter this data into computer.
6 GOTO 4
GOLD group meets after every 10 cycles.
-
4 Press start button and generate hundreds of computer-generated 'persons of interest'
5 Conduct interviews and enter this data into computer.
6 GOTO 4
GOLD group meets after every 10 cycles.
http://news.met.police.uk/news/update-on-the-investigation-into-the-disappearance-of-madeleine-mccann-135459
No update for two years it would seem.
-
By April 2012 Operation Grange have discovered 195 investigative opportunities. But;
t's just simply that we're unable to answer them ...in the United Kingdom [Redwood]
So despite monthly trips to Portugal OG have not managed to persuade the Portuguese to reopen their investigation.
Reading between the lines my opinion is that they can't ask the Portuguese to investigate these 195 leads because OG don't own the case. Perhaps that's why Redwood is now appealing for information, hoping it will bring in something that will change the Portuguese's minds.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/60april12/ITV1_27_04_2012.htm
Confirming my opinion;
The "195 leads" announced before yesterday by the British authorities whilst they are reviewing the archived process were not yet officially revealed to the Judiciary Police, as CM found out, because they only are avenues of investigation and not specific facts that may point to the child's whereabouts.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/60april12/CORREIO_DA_MANHA_27_04_2012.htm
-
By April 2012 Operation Grange have discovered 195 investigative opportunities. But;
t's just simply that we're unable to answer them ...in the United Kingdom [Redwood]
So despite monthly trips to Portugal OG have not managed to persuade the Portuguese to reopen their investigation.
Reading between the lines my opinion is that they can't ask the Portuguese to investigate these 195 leads because OG don't own the case. Perhaps that's why Redwood is now appealing for information, hoping it will bring in something that will change the Portuguese's minds.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/60april12/ITV1_27_04_2012.htm
Confirming my opinion;
The "195 leads" announced before yesterday by the British authorities whilst they are reviewing the archived process were not yet officially revealed to the Judiciary Police, as CM found out, because they only are avenues of investigation and not specific facts that may point to the child's whereabouts.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/60april12/CORREIO_DA_MANHA_27_04_2012.htm
As is well know with computers,, garbage in, garbage out.
-
By April 2012 Operation Grange have discovered 195 investigative opportunities. But;
t's just simply that we're unable to answer them ...in the United Kingdom [Redwood]
So despite monthly trips to Portugal OG have not managed to persuade the Portuguese to reopen their investigation.
Reading between the lines my opinion is that they can't ask the Portuguese to investigate these 195 leads because OG don't own the case. Perhaps that's why Redwood is now appealing for information, hoping it will bring in something that will change the Portuguese's minds.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/60april12/ITV1_27_04_2012.htm
Confirming my opinion;
The "195 leads" announced before yesterday by the British authorities whilst they are reviewing the archived process were not yet officially revealed to the Judiciary Police, as CM found out, because they only are avenues of investigation and not specific facts that may point to the child's whereabouts.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/60april12/CORREIO_DA_MANHA_27_04_2012.htm
I have heard that HOLMES generates a lot of tick-box type documentation as well as what might be genuine leads, all of which have to be gone through because the system demands it.
-
I have heard that HOLMES generates a lot of tick-box type documentation as well as what might be genuine leads, all of which have to be gone through because the system demands it.
I haven't actually seen what it looks like, aside from a millisecond shot of a screen during a documentary.
I would have thought that genuine leads, or red flags, would be the result of cross-referencing set against a number of criteria plus human analysis.
-
I have heard that HOLMES generates a lot of tick-box type documentation as well as what might be genuine leads, all of which have to be gone through because the system demands it.
https://www.computerworld.com/article/2562481/business-intelligence/holmes-2-database-shows-u-k--police-what-s-on-file.html
"In the Moorcroft case, HOLMES 2 stored data on more than 7,000 people linked to the investigation, including their ages, previous convictions and other personal data, said Peter Jackson, acting detective chief inspector for the Greater Manchester Police. As investigators interviewed people, they would bring their notes to a trained HOLMES 2 user, who entered the data into the system.
Pieces of evidence are also described and logged, Jackson said. Closed-circuit television (CCTV) footage was also described and put into HOLMES 2. From the information in the system, investigators can make decisions about who to interview next, and that interview would eventually come back to the incident room for entry into HOLMES 2.
Specific queries are then made of the system based on names, ages and descriptions. The system can find common traits in the information, potentially raising the profile of those that police may want to focus on".
-
https://www.computerworld.com/article/2562481/business-intelligence/holmes-2-database-shows-u-k--police-what-s-on-file.html
"In the Moorcroft case, HOLMES 2 stored data on more than 7,000 people linked to the investigation, including their ages, previous convictions and other personal data, said Peter Jackson, acting detective chief inspector for the Greater Manchester Police. As investigators interviewed people, they would bring their notes to a trained HOLMES 2 user, who entered the data into the system.
Pieces of evidence are also described and logged, Jackson said. Closed-circuit television (CCTV) footage was also described and put into HOLMES 2. From the information in the system, investigators can make decisions about who to interview next, and that interview would eventually come back to the incident room for entry into HOLMES 2.
Specific queries are then made of the system based on names, ages and descriptions. The system can find common traits in the information, potentially raising the profile of those that police may want to focus on".
A rather sophisticated database then.
-
By April 2012 Operation Grange have discovered 195 investigative opportunities. But;
t's just simply that we're unable to answer them ...in the United Kingdom [Redwood]
So despite monthly trips to Portugal OG have not managed to persuade the Portuguese to reopen their investigation.
Reading between the lines my opinion is that they can't ask the Portuguese to investigate these 195 leads because OG don't own the case. Perhaps that's why Redwood is now appealing for information, hoping it will bring in something that will change the Portuguese's minds.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/60april12/ITV1_27_04_2012.htm
Confirming my opinion;
The "195 leads" announced before yesterday by the British authorities whilst they are reviewing the archived process were not yet officially revealed to the Judiciary Police, as CM found out, because they only are avenues of investigation and not specific facts that may point to the child's whereabouts.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/60april12/CORREIO_DA_MANHA_27_04_2012.htm
My bold,if you accept the nonsense of the purple clad lady,that remains the same some 5 yrs later.
-
A rather sophisticated database then.
I don't know about "sophisticated".
It would seem to require a lot of operator intervention.
-
August 2012. Still sifting;
He said the police are sifting through a "large cache" of documents. Portuguese police are refusing to reopen the inquiry.
Mr Hogan Howe said: "We are still reviewing a lot of material. It is a significant amount of money and we have quite a lot of officers tied up in this.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/64aug12/TELEGRAPH_24_08_2012.htm
-
I don't know about "sophisticated".
It would seem to require a lot of operator intervention.
I have worked with the SAP accounting system, which is basically a database. Provided the thousands of transactions were entered correctly a search would find them; for a VAT return, for example. If data entry staff didn't do their job correctly transactions might not be found, or they might be shown under the wrong heading. Garbage in, garbage out.
The other problem is that searching a database will bring up related facts. So the various people who reported that Matthew Oldfield went to do a check at 9pm can be identified. I can't think of a search which would reveal that the story changed from the check being after the Payne's arrival at the restaurant to before their arrival.
-
May 2013 and Campbell is retiring;
Detective Chief Superintendent Hamish Campbell, the head of Scotland Yard’s Homicide and Serious Crime Command, said there were a “good number” of individuals who should be questioned.
Today he urged the Portuguese authorities to investigate the new leads identified by the British review.
DCS Campbell, speaking on the eve of his retirement from the Met, said: “There are a lot of people of interest. There are people who could be properly explored further, if only to be eliminated.”
So far, Portugal’s attorney general has ruled out a new inquiry into Madeleine’s disappearance but the comments from the senior Yard detective will raise hopes of a fresh investigation.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/73may13/London_17_05_2013.htm
So OG haven't been able to get any help from Portugal at all after two years because the case hasn't been reopened there.
-
June 2013 and the CPS have a go;
London’s chief crown prosecutor Alison Saunders and her deputy Jenny Hopkins flew to Portugal in April to meet counterparts to discuss leads identified in the Met’s review.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/74june13/Standard_21_06_2013.htm
Bingo?
Detectives from the Metropolitan Police Service conducting the investigative review into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann have now moved to an investigative stage of the inquiry.
Officers, under Operation Grange, have formally requested the Crown Prosecution Service submit an International Letter of Request to the Portuguese Authorities seeking assistance in obtaining evidence relating to lines of enquiry they wish to pursue. This has been done with the full support of the UK Government.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/75july13/Metropolitan_04_07_2013.htm
Portugal will co-operate with a new British police inquiry into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, the Attorney-General's office in Lisbon said yesterday.
A spokesman for the Portuguese Attorney-General's office said that the country was a signatory to two European treaties on mutual legal assistance: "[Portugal] has an international obligation to cooperate in what concerns criminal investigations that require international cooperation, according with the conditions established by international instruments."
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/75july13/Times_13_07_2013.htm
-
Holmes uses input masks. That means that it will demand certain information is added correctly, like a telephone number having the correct amount of numbers, for example. I don't know, but I imagine that every statement would be entered using certain information like name, address, date and whatever other boxes have to be filled out according to the entry screen. The actual statement will probably be scanned in and stored as a pdf attachment to the data entered, for reference.
-
Moving on to October 2013 A C Rowley and DCI Redwood hold a press conference;
A team of 6 has been formed in Faro by the PJ to deal with an ILOR from the by the CPS.
There remain a total of 41 persons of interest, 15 of which there are UK nationals. The work on three of those 15 UK Nationals nears completion with indications that they are not of any further interest to Op Grange.
Of note, we currently have 30 ILORs (31 including Portugal) in various countries following up requests for information concerning telephones used in Praia da Luz at the material time.
We have engaged with Crimewatch to assist us in a public appeal in their October programme, and have expanded our appeal for information to Germany, Holland and Ireland.
The appeal will piece together new lines of enquiry, and DCI Redwood will be appearing alongside Mr and Mrs McCann to appeal for information.
DCI Andy Redwood said: "The information and purpose of this broader appeal is based on phone traffic analysis we have examined, which determines the footfall of people in the resort at that time. Our investigation in the UK remains ongoing. The total number of documents we have to go through is 39,148, of which we have processed 21,614 so far. Out of those, 4,920 have resulted in actions to complete of which 2,123 have been."
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/78oct13/MetPolice_04_10_2013.htm
-
Crimewatch 14th October 2013
The careful and critical analysis of the time line has been absolutely key. Primarily, we’re focussed on the area between 8:30 and 10. We know that at 8 thirty, that was the time that Mr and Mrs McCann went down to the Tapas area for their dinner and we know that around 10 pm, that was when Mrs McCann found that Madeleine was missing. [Redwood]
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/NEWS_OCT_2013.htm
What that means we aren't told. I assume that they accepted the T9 account of what they did between those times. Perhaps they then looked for anyone else who was around during that period of time. The only person mentioned is Crecheman. If they found and spoke to others they are keeping that to themselves.
Redwood also asks for lurkers to come forward which is connected to the hypothesis of a planned abduction.
A botched burglary is another hypothesis mentioned. Charity collectors need to be traced too.
Obviously the star of the show was Smithman.
The evidence OG are using seems to be from various sources. The PJ Files, Metodo 3 and Oakley in particular, possibly some from Leicestershire police also.
-
Crimewatch 14th October 2013
The careful and critical analysis of the time line has been absolutely key. Primarily, we’re focussed on the area between 8:30 and 10. We know that at 8 thirty, that was the time that Mr and Mrs McCann went down to the Tapas area for their dinner and we know that around 10 pm, that was when Mrs McCann found that Madeleine was missing. [Redwood]
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/NEWS_OCT_2013.htm
What that means we aren't told. I assume that they accepted the T9 account of what they did between those times. Perhaps they then looked for anyone else who was around during that period of time. The only person mentioned is Crecheman. If they found and spoke to others they are keeping that to themselves.
Redwood also asks for lurkers to come forward which is connected to the hypothesis of a planned abduction.
A botched burglary is another hypothesis mentioned. Charity collectors need to be traced too.
Obviously the star of the show was Smithman.
The evidence OG are using seems to be from various sources. The PJ Files, Metodo 3 and Oakley in particular, possibly some from Leicestershire police also.
So if we take this at face value, in October 2013, they were advancing on all fronts rather than spearheading?
It makes one wonder when and if the change to spearheading occurred.
-
So if we take this at face value, in October 2013, they were advancing on all fronts rather than spearheading?
It makes one wonder when and if the change to spearheading occurred.
All fronts so long as they were 'abducting' fronts lol.
-
Following the Crimewatch programme we have a significant development;
The Public Ministry has determined the reopening of the inquiry into the disappearance of the minor Madeleine McCann, in compliance with article 279, nr. 1, of the Penal Process Code, following the Judiciary Police's proposal and taking into account the presentation of new indicative elements that justify the continuation of the investigation.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/78oct13/Portuguese_Attorney_General_24_10_2013.htm
Are they related? Is the change of focus from Tannerman to Smithman significant?
-
Are they focused on Smithman? Has he had any sort of mention for the past few years to suggest that he is being actively sought?
-
Following the Crimewatch programme we have a significant development;
The Public Ministry has determined the reopening of the inquiry into the disappearance of the minor Madeleine McCann, in compliance with article 279, nr. 1, of the Penal Process Code, following the Judiciary Police's proposal and taking into account the presentation of new indicative elements that justify the continuation of the investigation.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/78oct13/Portuguese_Attorney_General_24_10_2013.htm
Are they related? Is the change of focus from Tannerman to Smithman significant?
"In this inquiry, which is held by the Republic Prosecutor's Office of Portimão, and because it is understood that the regime of judicial secrecy is necessary, the competent Judge of Criminal Instruction was requested to postpone access to the process for the period of time that is objectively indispensable to the conclusion of the investigation".
They clearly don't want anyone to know what they are doing! I wonder if that extends to The MPS?
-
Are they focused on Smithman? Has he had any sort of mention for the past few years to suggest that he is being actively sought?
Not really, but here he is. Then there's this;
The reconstitution of Madeleine McCann's disappearance, on May 3, 2007 - which was one of the steps that were never done due to unavailability of the English child's parents and friends who accompanied them at the time of the disappearance - will now be able to be carried out. The family of the girl are already available to cooperate with the Portuguese police, after the authorities demonstrated their intention to follow once again the abduction theory.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/78oct13/CORREIO_DA_MANHA_25_10_2013.htm
Is it a coincidence that OG have focussed on Smithman and now the PJ will follow the abduction theory and restart their investigation?
-
Are they focused on Smithman? Has he had any sort of mention for the past few years to suggest that he is being actively sought?
They are not commenting on the last line of inquiry so I think you have answered your own question 8(0(*
-
An MPS update 24 October 2013
At the request of The Policia Judiciara, AC Mark Rowley and DCI Andy Redwood attended a meeting with senior officers on 17 October, in Lisbon, to discuss this significant development, and for a comprehensive briefing on the new lines of enquiry which, at this point, are separate to the lines of enquiry being followed by the MPS. At the conclusion of that meeting, the group were joined by Kate and Gerry McCann who were briefed on the plans to apply to reopen the investigation.
Did the PJ ask the McCanns to travel to Portugal? It doesn't say they did. Perhaps they turned up uninvited.
-
An MPS update 24 October 2013
At the request of The Policia Judiciara, AC Mark Rowley and DCI Andy Redwood attended a meeting with senior officers on 17 October, in Lisbon, to discuss this significant development, and for a comprehensive briefing on the new lines of enquiry which, at this point, are separate to the lines of enquiry being followed by the MPS. At the conclusion of that meeting, the group were joined by Kate and Gerry McCann who were briefed on the plans to apply to reopen the investigation.
Did the PJ ask the McCanns to travel to Portugal? It doesn't say they did. Perhaps they turned up uninvited.
or as they were invited to join the meeting it is far more likely they were invited
-
or as they were invited to join the meeting it is far more likely they were invited
Where does it say invited?
-
Operation Grange, according to A C Rowley, was treated as a cold case. UK police tend to revisit cold cases where there is forensic evidence because advances in forensic science, or new additions to the National DNA Database can provide an answer.
In America they have tended to focus more on new witnesses or informants. Jim Gamble at one point mentioned changing loyalties and that is what the American Police hoped to take advantage of.
http://criminology.research.southwales.ac.uk/features/cold-case-reviews/
The McCann case was short on forensic evidence, so OG probably followed the American model. Hence the appeals, which did bring some new 'nuggets' of information, according to Rowley.
I wonder if they ever resolved the 195 questions they found early on? I can see unanswered questions in the files, but the people they interviewed wouldn't have answered my questions.
In the end they seem to have followed three theories, all abduction related; a planned abduction, a burglary gone wrong and an individual sex offender.
The problem I have is that while an abduction is possible, it's not the only possibility.
-
Operation Grange, according to A C Rowley, was treated as a cold case. UK police tend to revisit cold cases where there is forensic evidence because advances in forensic science, or new additions to the National DNA Database can provide an answer.
In America they have tended to focus more on new witnesses or informants. Jim Gamble at one point mentioned changing loyalties and that is what the American Police hoped to take advantage of.
http://criminology.research.southwales.ac.uk/features/cold-case-reviews/
The McCann case was short on forensic evidence, so OG probably followed the American model. Hence the appeals, which did bring some new 'nuggets' of information, according to Rowley.
I wonder if they ever resolved the 195 questions they found early on? I can see unanswered questions in the files, but the people they interviewed wouldn't have answered my questions.
In the end they seem to have followed three theories, all abduction related; a planned abduction, a burglary gone wrong and an individual sex offender.
The problem I have is that while an abduction is possible, it's not the only possibility.
To be fair, that is what were instructed to do at the very beginning of the review.
-
To be fair, that is what were instructed to do at the very beginning of the review.
There doesn't seem to be any thing that points to them straying from it.
-
6 years and £12 million and still no trace of an abductor. Maybe, just maybe they isn't one.
-
6 years and £12 million and still no trace of an abductor. Maybe, just maybe they isn't one.
Well, you cannae find something if it doesn't exist.
-
Well, you cannae find something if it doesn't exist.
They haven't found Maddie yet she definitely existed so same could well be said for an abductor
-
Well, you cannae find something if it doesn't exist.
You certainly can't.
I suspect that ultimately OG will bring in their spin people and and claim that they have not been able to identify an abductor, rather than admit that there was no real evidence of one in the first place.
-
You certainly can't.
I suspect that ultimately OG will bring in their spin people and and claim that they have not been able to identify an abductor, rather than admit that there was no real evidence of one in the first place.
That has been my view from the start, as it was a one remit investigation and nothing more.
-
I do wonder if when it is all over, we'll begin to get accounts from the foot-soldiers about how the investigation was really carried out.
-
I very much doubt that any of them will write a libellous book, so let's have a care, please.
-
I very much doubt that any of them will write a libellous book, so let's have a care, please.
I wasn't suggesting anything libelous, so why should you?
I was thinking more along the lines of how the investigation was carried out and how they functioned under foreign jurisdiction.
-
I wasn't suggesting anything libelous, so why should you?
I was thinking more along the lines of how the investigation was carried out and how they functioned under foreign jurisdiction.
I think your comment was debatable. This is why it hasn't been deleted. So please proceed with caution, and this doesn't only apply to you.
-
An MPS update 24 October 2013
At the request of The Policia Judiciara, AC Mark Rowley and DCI Andy Redwood attended a meeting with senior officers on 17 October, in Lisbon, to discuss this significant development, and for a comprehensive briefing on the new lines of enquiry which, at this point, are separate to the lines of enquiry being followed by the MPS. At the conclusion of that meeting, the group were joined by Kate and Gerry McCann who were briefed on the plans to apply to reopen the investigation.
Did the PJ ask the McCanns to travel to Portugal? It doesn't say they did. Perhaps they turned up uninvited.
So do you think it is possible that the McCanns were not invited - but they secretly contrived a way of bumping into police officers - who, for some unknown reason, then decided they had no choice but to comprehensively brief them on their plans to apply to re-open the case - and this info was only imparted to them as a result of a 'cunning' plan by the McCanns. Really?
The power of 'wishful thinking' never ceases to amaze me.
-
So do you think it is possible that the McCanns were not invited - but they secretly contrived a way of bumping into police officers - who, for some unknown reason, then decided they had no choice but to comprehensively brief them on their plans to apply to re-open the case - and this info was only imparted to them as a result of a 'cunning' plan by the McCanns. Really?
The power of 'wishful thinking' never ceases to amaze me.
more evidence that the Mccanns are not suspects
-
So do you think it is possible that the McCanns were not invited - but they secretly contrived a way of bumping into police officers - who, for some unknown reason, then decided they had no choice but to comprehensively brief them on their plans to apply to re-open the case - and this info was only imparted to them as a result of a 'cunning' plan by the McCanns. Really?
The power of 'wishful thinking' never ceases to amaze me.
Still waiting for concrete evidence of abduction.
It's been a long wait.
Is that 'wishful thinking' ?
-
There doesn't seem to be any thing that points to them straying from it.
That's the problem with starting with a hypothesis. Instead of following the evidence, you look for evidence to support your hypothesis.
-
That's the problem with starting with a hypothesis. Instead of following the evidence, you look for evidence to support your hypothesis.
Well nothing has come from forensic examinations.
Almost forgot the partial fingerprints and hairs,
..................which could have been deposited anytime.
-
That's the problem with starting with a hypothesis. Instead of following the evidence, you look for evidence to support your hypothesis.
More importantly if evidence is ignored because it doesn't fit the current theory.
Something along those lines happened in the Yorkshire Ripper case
-
More importantly if evidence is ignored because it doesn't fit the current theory.
Something along those lines happened in the Yorkshire Ripper case
Indeed, and how long was it before he was arrested, after the time he was initially interviewed ?
-
So do you think it is possible that the McCanns were not invited - but they secretly contrived a way of bumping into police officers - who, for some unknown reason, then decided they had no choice but to comprehensively brief them on their plans to apply to re-open the case - and this info was only imparted to them as a result of a 'cunning' plan by the McCanns. Really?
The power of 'wishful thinking' never ceases to amaze me.
The suggestion that they turned up on the off chance is your suggestion, not mine. I find it as daft as you clearly do. How you thought of it I can't imagine.
The update doesn't say why the McCanns were there, but it clearly states that Rowley and Redwood were there at the invitation of the PJ. It doesn't say that the McCanns were invited by the PJ.
Perhaps the McCanns were there at the invitation of Rowley and Redwood? Perhaps they were there because the PJ required their presence?
-
That's the problem with starting with a hypothesis. Instead of following the evidence, you look for evidence to support your hypothesis.
I would say they have clearly followed the evidence and arrived at abduction...thats my opinion....and no one can say with certainty that it isnt true
-
If McCanns were there at the invitation of Rowley et al, you have to wonder why they made that invitation.
While it might be normal practice to inform parents, etc of progress, inviting them to meeting in a foreign country seems a bit extreme.
Purely my own opinion, of course.
-
More importantly if evidence is ignored because it doesn't fit the current theory.
Something along those lines happened in the Yorkshire Ripper case
Then there's the Jill Dando case, which the OG SIO worked on.
-
Then there's the Jill Dando case, which the OG SIO worked on.
Precisely.
That is something certain parties would like to ignore, or deflect from.
I.M.H.O. of course.
-
Precisely.
That is something certain parties would like to ignore, or deflect from.
I.M.H.O. of course.
figures have shown supplied by alice that SY have solved 90 % of homicide cases...thats impressive....you need to look at the whole picture not just one case
-
I would say they have clearly followed the evidence and arrived at abduction...thats my opinion....and no one can say with certainty that it isnt true
There is no evidence showing that they did that either. What there is suggests they didn't, in my opinion.
David Cameron; Operation Grange was to help the parents.
Sir Paul Stephenson; he knew they were innocent once he met them.
The remit; abduction.
A C Rowley; Their mission is to find answers for the parents.
-
more evidence that the Mccanns are not suspects
Seeing as OG seem to be treating it as an abduction,its hard to see why they should be.
-
I would say they have clearly followed the evidence and arrived at abduction...thats my opinion....and no one can say with certainty that it isnt true
Nor that it is true.
-
The suggestion that they turned up on the off chance is your suggestion, not mine. I find it as daft as you clearly do. How you thought of it I can't imagine.
The update doesn't say why the McCanns were there, but it clearly states that Rowley and Redwood were there at the invitation of the PJ. It doesn't say that the McCanns were invited by the PJ.
Perhaps the McCanns were there at the invitation of Rowley and Redwood? Perhaps they were there because the PJ required their presence?
It wasn't me who suggested the possibility that they may have arrived uninvited. IMO it is a daft suggestion but I do have an idea why some sceptics would prefer that to be the case.
If the reason for SY inviting the McCanns was to update/brief them on their meeting with the Oporto team then there is absolutely no reason for the McCanns to travel to Portugal for that - as it could take place on SY's return to the UK. So that makes no sense to me.
IMO It is far more likely at the very beginning of this process that the Oporto Team would not want to make the same mistake as Amaral made - but would want to meet the McCanns in person right at the start. The only way they could do that was by inviting the McCanns to Portugal. That does make sense to me and so IMO the McCanns were invited by the PJ - probably via SY to attend.
AIMHO
-
figures have shown supplied by alice that SY have solved 90 % of homicide cases...thats impressive....you need to look at the whole picture not just one case
Once again what about where they have no jurisdiction?
-
Nor that it is true.
thats your opinion...it may well be true and imo it is true
-
As a reminder, B. Hogan Howe, in his Freudian Slip, let slip this was a murder inquiry.
Isn't Rowley, inadvertently, by saying '90%' saying the same thing ?
Mind you SY messed up the Dando case, and ignored evidence from witnesses.
-
Once again what about where they have no jurisdiction?
Good question.
-
More importantly if evidence is ignored because it doesn't fit the current theory.
Something along those lines happened in the Yorkshire Ripper case
At the back end of the summer there was an excellent tv programme imo featuring Manchester police murder squad,one particular thing sticks in the mind,a leading detective said that you do not guide the story,the evidence leads the story.
-
thats your opinion...it may well be true and imo it is true
OG imo can carry on investigating an abduction until the cows come home,gone out and come home again,unless it ends up in court,thats what it remain's an opinion.
-
At the back end of the summer there was an excellent tv programme imo featuring Manchester police murder squad,one particular thing sticks in the mind,a leading detective said that you do not guide the story,the evidence leads the story.
and thats exactly what SY have done imo......
-
and thats exactly what SY have done imo......
Cite?
-
and thats exactly what SY have done imo......
A world of difference imo,the tv series was not put on air until after convictions were secured,OG are treating the McCann case like some soap opera imo.
-
A world of difference imo,the tv series was not put on air until after convictions were secured,OG are treating the McCann case like some soap opera imo.
Or a money tree.
-
You certainly can't.
I suspect that ultimately OG will bring in their spin people and and claim that they have not been able to identify an abductor, rather than admit that there was no real evidence of one in the first place.
I've had that view for sometime,still not seen any thing that leads me to deviate from it,person/persons unknown removed Madeleine from 5a leaving no trace of her whereabouts is how it will end imo.
-
There is no evidence showing that they did that either. What there is suggests they didn't, in my opinion.
David Cameron; Operation Grange was to help the parents.
Sir Paul Stephenson; he knew they were innocent once he met them.
The remit; abduction.
A C Rowley; Their mission is to find answers for the parents.
We know that SY have information on this case that we don't have. Does it never occur to you that there is evidence amongst that info which led them to firmly believe that Madeleine was removed from 5A and that the parents were not involved? Evidence that we don't know about because we've never seen it.
People seem to forget that we only have some of the information on this case. To believe in these circumstances that amateur armchair detectives are not only on a par with experienced SY detectives (who do have all the information) - but actually believe they know better than they do is ludicrous imo.
AIMHO
-
We know that SY have information on this case that we don't have. Does it never occur to you that there is evidence amongst that info which led them to firmly believe that Madeleine was removed from 5A and that the parents were not involved? Evidence that we don't know about because we've never seen it.
People seem to forget that we only have some of the information on this case. To believe in these circumstances that amateur armchair detectives are not only on a par with experienced SY detectives (who do have all the information) - but actually believe they know better than they do is ludicrous imo.
AIMHO
Has it ever occurred to you, there wasn't an abduction ?
-
Has it ever occurred to you, there wasn't an abduction ?
*
several posters on here who support abduction have clearly stated they have considered all options and on the evidence consider abduction the most likely. The reason I beleive abduction took place is precisely because I have considered the other options and discounted them
-
*
several posters on here who support abduction have clearly stated they have considered all options and on the evidence consider abduction the most likely. The reason I beleive abduction took place is precisely because I have considered the other options and discounted them
Out of interest what other options?
-
Out of interest what other options?
are you serious?
-
*
several posters on here who support abduction have clearly stated they have considered all options and on the evidence consider abduction the most likely. The reason I beleive abduction took place is precisely because I have considered the other options and discounted them
Well as those who support abduction, support the Mccanns, that is no surprise.
Yet after all this tine SY have failed to find one.
Can't say I'm surprised.
-
are you serious?
Yes,what other options have you considered,you made the statement.
-
Well as those who support abduction, support the Mccanns, that is no surprise.
Yet after all this tine SY have failed to find one.
Can't say I'm surprised.
Now which came first ? -
Support of the McCanns because of a belief of abduction or belief in abduction because of support of the McCanns?
-
Yes,what other options have you considered,you made the statement.
Parental involvement ...woke and wandered
-
Now which came first ? -
Support of the McCanns because of a belief of abduction or belief in abduction because of support of the McCanns?
That in my opinion is a rather pertinent question.
-
It wasn't me who suggested the possibility that they may have arrived uninvited. IMO it is a daft suggestion but I do have an idea why some sceptics would prefer that to be the case.
If the reason for SY inviting the McCanns was to update/brief them on their meeting with the Oporto team then there is absolutely no reason for the McCanns to travel to Portugal for that - as it could take place on SY's return to the UK. So that makes no sense to me.
IMO It is far more likely at the very beginning of this process that the Oporto Team would not want to make the same mistake as Amaral made - but would want to meet the McCanns in person right at the start. The only way they could do that was by inviting the McCanns to Portugal. That does make sense to me and so IMO the McCanns were invited by the PJ - probably via SY to attend.
AIMHO
The text names those who were requested by the PJ to attend, and the McCann's names aren't included. The possibilities are;
a) Whoever wrote the update accidentally didn't make it clear why they were there.
b) Whoever wrote the update deliberately didn't make it clear why they were there.
You have speculated based on a), but b) is also possible, so it can be speculated about also.
-
Parental involvement ...woke and wandered
You have omitted accidental death.
-
You have omitted accidental death.
I can think of another which allows for a bit of lateral thinking,but won't reveal for obvious reasons.
-
I can think of one or two more, but they certainly wouldn't be allowed on here for more than about 10 seconds.
-
You have omitted accidental death.
No I haven't....that's included in parental involvement
-
No I haven't....that's included in parental involvement
It doesn't have to be.
-
We know that SY have information on this case that we don't have. Does it never occur to you that there is evidence amongst that info which led them to firmly believe that Madeleine was removed from 5A and that the parents were not involved? Evidence that we don't know about because we've never seen it.
People seem to forget that we only have some of the information on this case. To believe in these circumstances that amateur armchair detectives are not only on a par with experienced SY detectives (who do have all the information) - but actually believe they know better than they do is ludicrous imo.
AIMHO
A C Rowley doesn't refer to any information except that found in the PJ files, so you are merely speculating.
At the time the remit was written they were still entering the PJ information into HOLMES too. That information was dealt with first.
Q: Andy Redwood, the first senior investigating officer, said in one interview his policy was to go right
back to the beginning, accept nothing, but one thing you appear to have accepted is that this was an
abduction. It’s in your first remit statement, it refers to ‘the abduction’, which rather suggests right from
the start you had a closed mind to the possibility of parents’ involvement, an accident or Madeleine
simply walking out of the apartment.
MR: Two points to that, firstly the involvement of the parents, that was dealt with at the time by the
original investigation by the Portuguese. We had a look at all the material and we are happy that was
all dealt with and there is no reason whatsoever to reopen that or start rumours that was a line of
investigation.
-
I can think of one or two more, but they certainly wouldn't be allowed on here for more than about 10 seconds.
Even I am not that quick.
-
A C Rowley doesn't refer to any information except that found in the PJ files, so you are merely speculating.
At the time the remit was written they were still entering the PJ information into HOLMES too. That information was dealt with first.
Q: Andy Redwood, the first senior investigating officer, said in one interview his policy was to go right
back to the beginning, accept nothing, but one thing you appear to have accepted is that this was an
abduction. It’s in your first remit statement, it refers to ‘the abduction’, which rather suggests right from
the start you had a closed mind to the possibility of parents’ involvement, an accident or Madeleine
simply walking out of the apartment.
MR: Two points to that, firstly the involvement of the parents, that was dealt with at the time by the
original investigation by the Portuguese. We had a look at all the material and we are happy that was
all dealt with and there is no reason whatsoever to reopen that or start rumours that was a line of
investigation.
So everything you see as pointers to involvement...so called changed and inconsistencies in statements...the dogs...the dna.. have been looked at and not thought to be of any importance
-
So everything you see as pointers to involvement...so called changed and inconsistencies in statements...the dogs...the dna.. have been looked at and not thought to be of any importance
Has it? I know that they examined the timeline from 8.30 to 10.00. I know that Commander Foy said 'They were where they said they were' (whatever that means). What else they looked at I don't know.
-
So everything you see as pointers to involvement...so called changed and inconsistencies in statements...the dogs...the dna.. have been looked at and not thought to be of any importance
They have done new forensic tests but haven't released the results re dogs, DNA.
Q: I know you don’t want to go into detail but are there more forensic tests, is that what is going on?
MR: I’m not going to talk about detail of the type of work going on but there are critical lines of enquiry
of great interest to ourselves and our Portuguese counterparts and there are some significant
investigative avenues we are pursuing that we see as very worthwhile.
-
figures have shown supplied by alice that SY have solved 90 % of homicide cases...thats impressive....you need to look at the whole picture not just one case
Absoltely remarkable when compared to the figures put out by the ONS.
"Of the 518 cases currently recorded as homicide in the year ending March 2015, data on the case outcomes of the principal suspects at 13 November 2015 showed (Appendix Table 2.02 (1.59 Mb Excel sheet)):
court proceedings had resulted in homicide convictions in 198 cases (38%)
court proceedings were pending for 173 cases (33%)
proceedings had been discontinued or not initiated or all suspects had been acquitted in 18 cases (3%)
suspects had committed suicide in 28 cases (5%)
no suspects had been charged in connection with 99 cases (19%)
These figures are similar to those published last year for the year ending March 2014, ".
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/compendium/focusonviolentcrimeandsexualoffences/yearendingmarch2015/chapter2homicide
I suppose it depends on the datum one is using.
It looks to me like one lot are using Newlyn whilst the other lot are still using Victoria Dock Bay of Liverpool... @)(++(* [esoteric joke look it up ?{)(** ]
-
Absoltely remarkable when compared to the figures put out by the ONS.
"Of the 518 cases currently recorded as homicide in the year ending March 2015, data on the case outcomes of the principal suspects at 13 November 2015 showed (Appendix Table 2.02 (1.59 Mb Excel sheet)):
court proceedings had resulted in homicide convictions in 198 cases (38%)
court proceedings were pending for 173 cases (33%)
proceedings had been discontinued or not initiated or all suspects had been acquitted in 18 cases (3%)
suspects had committed suicide in 28 cases (5%)
no suspects had been charged in connection with 99 cases (19%)
These figures are similar to those published last year for the year ending March 2014, ".
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/compendium/focusonviolentcrimeandsexualoffences/yearendingmarch2015/chapter2homicide
I suppose it depends on the datum one is using.
It looks to me like one lot are using Newlyn whilst the other lot are still using Victoria Dock Bay of Liverpool... @)(++(* [esoteric joke look it up ?{)(** ]
These are the figures for england and wales whereas the previous quote by you was for the Met
-
We can see that the various lurkers/suspicious looking or behaving people reported to the police needed to be investigated; most of them are there in the files and the PJ made some efforts to find them..
The spate of burglaries which were allegedly taking place aren't in the files. I have only seen two mentioned. The sole sex offender isn't in the files either. The evidence underlying these two theories seems to have originated elsewhere.
-
These are the figures for england and wales whereas the previous quote by you was for the Met
I quoted two sets of figures from the Met. in my earlier posts one of which was at variance with what you said Mr Rowley said. I also quoted figures for Engalnd and Wales twice.
By inspection one can see something does not hang right.
-
I quoted two sets of figures from the Met. in my earlier posts one of which was at variance with what you said Mr Rowley said. I also quoted figures for Engalnd and Wales twice.
By inspection one can see something does not hang right.
You quoted figures for the Met showing a 90% sucees rate for homicide....you have posted nothing that contradicts that...those are the facts unless you can show otherwise...
-
You quoted figures for the Met showing a 90% sucees rate for homicide....you have posted nothing that contradicts that...those are the facts unless you can show otherwise...
You quoted the number.
Now where are the actual stats to support that figure ?
If there is no cite to support it, it is hearsay.
-
You quoted the number.
Now where are the actual stats to support that figure ?
If there is no cite to support it, it is hearsay.
This is what alice quoted.....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Police_Service#Detection_rates
"Our detection rate for murder is exceptional - solving around 95 of every 100 murders - a rate other capital cities look at with envy".
http://news.met.police.uk/news/detecting-and-preventing-murder-147405
unless shown otherwise ...those are the facts.
-
This is what alice quoted.....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Police_Service#Detection_rates
"Our detection rate for murder is exceptional - solving around 95 of every 100 murders - a rate other capital cities look at with envy".
http://news.met.police.uk/news/detecting-and-preventing-murder-147405
unless shown otherwise ...those are the facts.
I am talking about the 90% claim.
I wasn't referring to Alice.
-
I am talking about the 90% claim.
I wasn't referring to Alice.
I quote Mark Rowley...and provided a link to his quote
-
I quote Mark Rowley...and provided a link to his quote
....and where is Rowley's data to back up his claim ?
-
I quoted two sets of figures from the Met. in my earlier posts one of which was at variance with what you said Mr Rowley said. I also quoted figures for Engalnd and Wales twice.
By inspection one can see something does not hang right.
One more point...the England and Wales figures are for homicide....the Mets are for murder
-
'homicide meaning, definition, what is homicide: (an act of) murder:'
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/homicide
-
'homicide meaning, definition, what is homicide: (an act of) murder:'
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/homicide
Homicide includes manslaughter........not just murder
-
....and where is Rowley's data to back up his claim ?
You would have to ask Rowley.... I doubt he would lie
-
Where are the facts to support his statement ?
Second , I gave a cited definition for homicide from the Cambridge English Dictionary.
-
'homicide meaning, definition, what is homicide: (an act of) murder:'
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/homicide
I tended to think of homicide as all caused of death by killing as in this definition "Homicides include all killings of humans. Many homicides, such as murder and manslaughter, violate criminal laws. Others, such as a killing committed in justified self-defense, are not criminal."
So murder, manslaughter and justified self defense are all under the heading of homicide.
-
You would have to ask Rowley.... I doubt he would lie
He should be arrested if he did.
-
Where are the facts to support his statement ?
Second , I gave a cited definition for homicide from the Cambridge English Dictionary.
Homicide includes manslaughter ...not just murder
-
I tended to think of homicide as all caused of death by killing as in this definition "Homicides include all killings of humans. Many homicides, such as murder and manslaughter, violate criminal laws. Others, such as a killing committed in justified self-defense, are not criminal."
So murder, manslaughter and justified self defense are all under the heading of homicide.
Cambridge English Dictionary Rob.
More than good enough.
-
Cambridge English Dictionary Rob.
More than good enough.
If that's what it says it is wrong
Homicide is the act of killing someone....not just murder
-
Cambridge English Dictionary Rob.
More than good enough.
Sorry I didn't give my source http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/homicide-definition.html
-
I tended to think of homicide as all caused of death by killing as in this definition "Homicides include all killings of humans. Many homicides, such as murder and manslaughter, violate criminal laws. Others, such as a killing committed in justified self-defense, are not criminal."
So murder, manslaughter and justified self defense are all under the heading of homicide.
You are absolutely correct ... Stephen is wrong to limit homicide to murder
-
Sorry I didn't give my source http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/homicide-definition.html
That's an American source.
-
That's an American source.
Manslaughter is homicide and it is not murder
-
You are absolutely correct ... Stephen is wrong to limit homicide to murder
The Cambridge Dictionary is more the common usage of the term.
That's an American source.
OK they speak our language too.
-
If Stephen reads the whole of the Cambridge definition he will see that homicide includes manslaughter...culpable homicide...and self defense... justifiable homicide...
NOT just murder
-
The Cambridge Dictionary is more the common usage of the term.
OK they speak our language too.
After a fashion.
-
The Cambridge Dictionary is more the common usage of the term.
OK they speak our language too.
There are also significant differences in the employment of language either side of the Atlantic Rob.
-
There are also significant differences in the employment of language either side of the Atlantic Rob.
Stephen...you are wrong...totally wrong...homicide in the uk includes manslaughter as I have already pointed out
-
Stephen...you are wrong...totally wrong...homicide in the uk includes manslaughter as I have already pointed out
Then provide the figures with a cite.
From Rowley.
-
Then provide the figures with a cite.
From Rowley.
3. Introduction
The term ‘homicide’ covers the offences of murder, manslaughter and infanticide
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/compendium/focusonviolentcrimeandsexualoffences/yearendingmarch2015/chapter2homicide
you are wrong as i have said
-
3. Introduction
The term ‘homicide’ covers the offences of murder, manslaughter and infanticide
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/compendium/focusonviolentcrimeandsexualoffences/yearendingmarch2015/chapter2homicide
you are wrong as i have said
Now provide the cites from Rowley with the data to support 90%.
-
Now provide the cites from Rowley.
i have provided the cite from rowley...its not up to me to show how he arrived at the figure...I am quoting what he said
-
i have provided the cite from rowley...its not up to me to show how he arrived at the figure...I am quoting what he said
Then it is hearsay and nothing more.
-
After a fashion.
You would of been more correct if you said "Sort of after a fashion".
-
Then it is hearsay and nothing more.
No...its a quote from Rowley...are you suggesting that the whole of Rowleys interview is meaningless...that is quite bizarre...and it is not hearsay....Rowley stated it live on tv
-
No...its a quote from Rowley...are you suggesting that the whole of Rowleys interview is meaningless...that is quite bizarre
Without statistical back up, it is a number without backup.
Nothing more.
-
Without statistical back up, it is a number without backup.
Nothing more.
in your opinion
-
Then it is hearsay and nothing more.
IMO the use of the word or concept of hearsay is often used incorrectly.
-
IMO the use of the word or concept of hearsay is often used incorrectly.
It is not hearsay... hearsay is when one person gives THEIR account of what another person said...here Rowleys own account is on record
-
You quoted figures for the Met showing a 90% sucees rate for homicide....you have posted nothing that contradicts that...those are the facts unless you can show otherwise...
Try reading all the links I posted; preferably from alpha to omega.
-
Try reading all the links I posted; preferably from alpha to omega.
I've read the links and as I have said you have provided nothing that contradicts the 95 per cent figure for murder
It's as simple as that
Your quote of course supports Rowleys claim for the 90 % claim for serious crime...it all ties in nicely
-
Well as those who support abduction, support the Mccanns, that is no surprise.
Yet after all this tine SY have failed to find one.
Can't say I'm surprised.
What is so odd about the fact that many people who support abduction as a result of studying the case will also support the parents as a result of their conclusions? I don't see what there is to criticise about supporting folk who you genuinely believe to be innocent. Not to do so would be abnormal IMO.
-
What is so odd about the fact that many people who support abduction as a result of studying the case will also support the parents as a result of their conclusions? I don't see what there is to criticise about supporting folk who you genuinely believe to be innocent. Not to do so would be abnormal IMO.
Who are these 'many people' ?
Are these the 'many people' who have done and would do the same as the McCann's ?
Tell me Benice, what evidence is there to support abduction above any other of the scenarios ?
After all, the claim of abduction came from the mccanns, and how would they know what happened ?
They weren't in the apartment, when she disappeared , were they.
-
Who are these 'many people' ?
Are these the 'many people' who have done and would do the same as the McCann's ?
Tell me Benice, what evidence is there to support abduction above any other of the scenarios ?
After all, the claim of abduction came from the mccanns, and how would they know what happened ?
They weren't in the apartment, when she disappeared , were they.
In my experience most people think Maddie was abducted...including the two police forces investigating. The evidence supports this.
-
In my experience most people think Maddie was abducted...including the two police forces investigating. The evidence supports this.
In my experience, most people I have discussed the case with, including working police officers and 2 retired members of the force (including one from the Met), don't believe in abduction, and the more time has elapsed, are even further of that opinion.
As to evidence of abduction, still waiting for anything vaguely concrete.
Meanwhile davel, how many members of those forces believe in abduction ?
Can we have a cite for the numbers that do ?
-
In my experience, most people I have discussed the case with, including working police officers and 2 retired members of the force (including one from the Met), don't believe in abduction, and the more time has elapsed, are even further of that opinion.
As to evidence of abduction, still waiting for anything vaguely concrete.
Meanwhile davel, how many members of those forces believe in abduction ?
Can we have a cite for the numbers that do ?
Your claims cannot be verified ... neither can mine
What we do know is that both investigations do not see the McCann's as suspects....that is verified.
Imo most people criticise the McCanns for leaving the children but believe she was abducted
-
Your claims cannot be verified ... neither can mine
What we do know is that both investigations do not see the McCann's as suspects....that is verified.
Imo most people criticise the McCanns for leaving the children but believe she was abducted
The reality is davel, we do not know what, if anything, the investigations are doing.
IMO, most people think there never was an abduction, and evidently, no abductor or abductors have been found to exist.
-
The reality is davel, we do not know what, if anything, the investigations are doing.
IMO, most people think there never was an abduction, and evidently, no abductor or abductors have been found to exist.
I know what they have clearly stated...mccanns not suspects
-
In my experience, most people I have discussed the case with, including working police officers and 2 retired members of the force (including one from the Met), don't believe in abduction, and the more time has elapsed, are even further of that opinion.
As to evidence of abduction, still waiting for anything vaguely concrete.
Meanwhile davel, how many members of those forces believe in abduction ?
Can we have a cite for the numbers that do ?
It is pointless asking for Cites that cannot be produced.
-
This says a lot about the Mccanns.
I.M.H.O.
(http://scontent.fbhx2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23795437_149026815748568_2389090165211658462_n.jpg?oh=0848c1a774b1e88525ca1d240eaac00e&oe=5A954810)
I don't call that desperate, i call it disgusting. Madeleine was not a commodity.
-
This says a lot about the Mccanns.
I.M.H.O.
(http://scontent.fbhx2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23795437_149026815748568_2389090165211658462_n.jpg?oh=0848c1a774b1e88525ca1d240eaac00e&oe=5A954810)
I don't call that desperate, i call it disgusting. Madeleine was not a commodity.
Any suggestions that Gerry does not love his children is patently ridiculous imo
-
I've read the links and as I have said you have provided nothing that contradicts the 95 per cent figure for murder
It's as simple as that
Your quote of course supports Rowleys claim for the 90 % claim for serious crime...it all ties in nicely
I suggest you read it again.
What is shown quite clearly is that The Met's own figures are at variance with what Rowley said.
You pays yer money and takes yer choice as to which is correct.
-
Why should they be? SY are investigating an abduction as per the restrictive remit.
And the Portuguese...they have said the mccanns are no suspects
My understanding is SY are investigating an abduction because the parents are ruled out...they have said they have looked at the evidence against the parents...they were obviously not looking at abduction when they did that
-
I suggest you read it again.
What is shown quite clearly is that The Met's own figures are at variance with what Rowley said.
You pays yer money and takes yer choice as to which is correct.
the mets own figures which you quoted show 95% solution rate for murder.....Rowley quoted 90% for serious crime.....that is not variance it is agreement.
could you now show a cite for your alleged variance...you wont be able to
-
Rowley said they looked at the first investigation,which is what OG is about,not that they looked at the parents,their remit doesn't allow for it,if you think it does show where.
A link to the remit was posted on page 1 of this thread,at the investigative stage they were looking at an abduction,the remit was set.
-
Rowley said they looked at the first investigation,which is what OG is about,not that they looked at the parents,their remit doesn't allow for it,if you think it does show where.
A link to the remit was posted on page 1 of this thread,at the investigative stage they were looking at an abduction,the remit was set.
The remit was set after all the evidence had been looked at ,
And the parents ruled out....imo
You won't agree but it's if no importance
-
Finding an abductor would be proof...not evidence...imo
-
Finding an abductor would be proof...not evidence...imo ...they have evidence as confirmed by Redwood
Certainly nothing in the way of forensic evidence.
If they had evidence of abduction, the trail would have led somewhere.
What is obvious, is that nothing has changed since the original investigation.
Mind you, they have a plethora of rehashed files. ?{)(**
-
Certainly nothing in the way of forensic evidence.
If they had evidence of abduction, the trail would have led somewhere.
What is obvious, is that nothing has changed since the original investigation.
Mind you, they have a plethora of rehashed files. ?{)(**
you have no idea if anythging has changed
-
you have no idea if anythging has changed
The case remains unsolved.
Even with Rowley, he stated 'multiple hypotheses'.
-
It is the SIO who makes the decisions in a major crime investigation, so in this case the man in charge was Hamish Campbell, despite newspaper headlines saying it was Andy Redwood. Campbell would have been responsible for the investigative strategy;
The purpose of an investigative strategy is to:
identify the most appropriate line(s) of enquiry to pursue
determine the objective of pursuing particular lines of enquiry
identify the investigative action(s) necessary to efficiently achieve the objectives, taking into account resources, priorities, necessity and proportionality
direct and conduct investigative actions to gather the maximum amount of material which may generate further lines of enquiry
https://www.app.college.police.uk/app-content/investigations/managing-investigations/#investigative-strategies
-
John...it's fair to say that both investigations have said the McCann are not suspects...that is surely a fact
-
John...it's fair to say that both investigations have said the McCann are not suspects...that is surely a fact
The Met said Barry George killed Jill Dando and Colin Stagg killed Rachael Nikkell. Then we have Broadwater Farm and Stephen Lawrence. Nobody's perfect. They may be right, but they may be wrong too.
-
The Met said Barry George killed Jill Dando and Colin Stagg killed Rachael Nikkell. Then we have Broadwater Farm and Stephen Lawrence. Nobody's perfect. They may be right, but they may be wrong too.
They have an excellent record on murder and serious crime which would suggest they are right far more often than they are wrong. Two police forces....no real evidence...that is pretty convincing...imo
-
They have an excellent record on murder and serious crime which would suggest they are right far more often than they are wrong. Two police forces....no real evidence...that is pretty convincing...imo
The thread is about OG ,the MPS have no jurisdiction that is why its funded by the HO which in turn is why its being treated a if the abduction is treated as if it happened in the UK,that remit was drawn up before any officer was assigned.The most convincing thing there is no evidence against any one.imo
All this is found with in the remit linked to on page one.
-
A C Rowley doesn't refer to any information except that found in the PJ files, so you are merely speculating.
At the time the remit was written they were still entering the PJ information into HOLMES too. That information was dealt with first.
Q: Andy Redwood, the first senior investigating officer, said in one interview his policy was to go right
back to the beginning, accept nothing, but one thing you appear to have accepted is that this was an
abduction. It’s in your first remit statement, it refers to ‘the abduction’, which rather suggests right from
the start you had a closed mind to the possibility of parents’ involvement, an accident or Madeleine
simply walking out of the apartment.
MR: Two points to that, firstly the involvement of the parents, that was dealt with at the time by the
original investigation by the Portuguese. We had a look at all the material and we are happy that was
all dealt with and there is no reason whatsoever to reopen that or start rumours that was a line of
investigation.
As I said previously - unlike SY we simply don't have ''ALL the material'' to look at and therefore can have no idea what other information may exist within the more than 40,000 documents in their possession - i.e. info that we have never had access to but which could have affected their decisions.
Neither do we have the multitude of options available to SY which they use to aid their investigations. Just one 'for instance' being their ability to speak to people directly if necessary. A major advantage that we don't have imo.
Armchair detectives who think their expertise is on a par with the experienced detectives of OG - or who actually think they know more about this case than SY - and that SY have 'got it all wrong' are being totally unrealistic imo.
The idea that some huge conspiracy by people in 'high places' is afoot to 'protect the parents from justice' is even more unrealistic IMO.
If there was any 'secret' political reason for the parents to be protected - then common sense dictates there would have been no review in the first place and the whole thing would have been allowed to quietly slip into obscurity 10 years ago - with no further action forthcoming from the McCanns.
AIMHO
-
Yet davel, no one else has been found to be involved in Madeleine's disappearance, in over 10 years, and with truly unparalleled publicity, worldwide, for this case.
-
As I said previously - unlike SY we simply don't have ''ALL the material'' to look at and therefore can have no idea what other information may exist within the more than 40,000 documents in their possession - i.e. info that we have never had access to but which could have affected their decisions.
Neither do we have the multitude of options available to SY which they use to aid their investigations. Just one 'for instance' being their ability to speak to people directly if necessary. A major advantage that we don't have imo.
Armchair detectives who think their expertise is on a par with the experienced detectives of OG - or who actually think they know more about this case than SY - and that SY have 'got it all wrong' are being totally unrealistic imo.
The idea that some huge conspiracy by people in 'high places' is afoot to 'protect the parents from justice' is even more unrealistic IMO.
If there was any 'secret' political reason for the parents to be protected - then common sense dictates there would have been no review in the first place and the whole thing would have been allowed to quietly slip into obscurity 10 years ago - with no further action forthcoming from the McCanns.
AIMHO
There is evidence that OG went into this case with the intention of investigating an abduction. I don't understand why it's unrealistic to accept that The Met may have got it wrong. There's no evidence that they're infallible.
There's no need for conspiracies and cover-ups either. I've seen lots of people saying it's ludicrous to suggest that the parents could be involved. I've never seen one person give a coherent reason why they hold that view. It seems to rest purely on opinion.
Those opinions, however, have dominated how the parents have been perceived and have been repeated so often they're seen as accepted facts, just as the parents having been cleared became an accepted fact.
It seems perfectly possible to me that those making the decisions about Operation Grange truly believed that the parents weren't involved. Whether they were right or not remains to be seen; or not, as the case may be.
-
How feasible is it to keep returning to work which has been carried out to carry it out all over again?
Kate and Gerry McCann had to keep agitating on Madeleine's behalf and eventually were successful in having a scoping exercise into her disappearance commissioned with CEOP investigating.
The purpose of the scoping exercise was to ascertain if there was sufficient justification to take Madeleine's case forward to a review of all the evidence.
There was.
In my opinion any suggestion that Operation Grange was created to perform in the one dimensional vacuum of "ABDUCTION" without prior scrutiny of evidence is in my opinion nothing short of risible.
In my opinion the criticism they have received and continue to receive in the course of their employment as professional investigators in the case of a missing child is nothing short of deplorable particularly as the genesis of Operation Grange lay in the ashes of previous failed and stalled investigations.
There is a dropping crime rate in the Algarve ... which may in no small measure be as a result of lessons learned from Madeleine McCann's case.
-
How feasible is it to keep returning to work which has been carried out to carry it out all over again?
Kate and Gerry McCann had to keep agitating on Madeleine's behalf and eventually were successful in having a scoping exercise into her disappearance commissioned with CEOP investigating.
The purpose of the scoping exercise was to ascertain if there was sufficient justification to take Madeleine's case forward to a review of all the evidence.
There was.
In my opinion any suggestion that Operation Grange was created to perform in the one dimensional vacuum of "ABDUCTION" without prior scrutiny of evidence is in my opinion nothing short of risible.
In my opinion the criticism they have received and continue to receive in the course of their employment as professional investigators in the case of a missing child is nothing short of deplorable particularly as the genesis of Operation Grange lay in the ashes of previous failed and stalled investigations.
There is a dropping crime rate in the Algarve ... which may in no small measure be as a result of lessons learned from Madeleine McCann's case.
The remit document clearly states "the investigative review is intended to collate,record and analyse what has gone on before" it further adds "it is to examine the case and seek to determine (as if the abduction took place in the uk)" ergo it was already determined before collating,recording and analysing the remit was set.
A link to the remit is on page 1 of this thread.
-
The Supreme Court is the highest judicial authority in Portugal and they aren't convinced so that is good enough for me. As far as they are concerned the McCanns have not established their non culpability in matters arising from Maddie's disappearance. Hopefully the PJ will get their act together and finish investigating everything that went on post disappearance, something that SY have been prevented from doing.
-
The remit document clearly states "the investigative review is intended to collate,record and analyse what has gone on before" it further adds "it is to examine the case and seek to determine (as if the abduction took place in the uk)" ergo it was already determined before collating,recording and analysing the remit was set.
A link to the remit is on page 1 of this thread.
Thank you, I have read the 'remit' which in my opinion was as a result of the findings of the scoping exercise ... which determined whether or not a review was justified.
In my opinion part of the scoping exercise must have involved looking at the theories and possibilities ... why ask or expect as I intimated in my previous post that each step of a recent investigation is repeated and repeated and repeated.
At some stage decisions have to be taken and directions taken from what has been learned from the previous step and built upon. It is all a progression ... not a fly in aspic.
-
The Supreme Court is the highest judicial authority in Portugal and they aren't convinced so that is good enough for me. As far as they are concerned the McCanns have not established their non culpability in matters arising from Maddie's disappearance. Hopefully the PJ will get their act together and finish investigating everything that went on post disappearance, something that SY have been prevented from doing.
Would you like to tell us exactly what the SC said......I dont remember them using the word convinced. As I understand they said the McCanns had not proved their innocence...well...they dont have to and its just about impossible to do so, something the ECHR may look at. Despite what you say ...the portuguese investigation dont seem to share the view of the SC.
Your claim that SY have been prevented from investigating the mccanns is opinion not fact and imo ...risible
-
Thank you, I have read the 'remit' which in my opinion was as a result of the findings of the scoping exercise ... which determined whether or not a review was justified.
In my opinion part of the scoping exercise must have involved looking at the theories and possibilities ... why ask or expect as I intimated in my previous post that each step of a recent investigation is repeated and repeated and repeated.
At some stage decisions have to be taken and directions taken from what has been learned from the previous step and built upon. It is all a progression ... not a fly in aspic.
But what are we to read into what Rowley said about the non investigation of the parents by OG,step by step but mind the very first step.
-
Would you like to tell us exactly what the SC said......I dont remember them using the word convinced. As I understand they said the McCanns had not proved their innocence...well...they dont have to and its just about impossible to do so, something the ECHR may look at. Despite what you say ...the portuguese investigation do not consider the McCanns suspects so they dont seem to share the view of the SC.
Your claim that SY have been prevented from investigating the mccanns is opinion not fact and imo ...risible
Didn't a former commander claim publicly not so long ago that Met investigators were not given a free hand as to who could be investigated thus why he declined to head Op Grange? Frankly that doesn't surprise me in the least if it is accurate.
-
Didn't a former commander claim publicly not so long ago that Met investigators were not given a free hand as to who could be investigated thus why he declined to head Op Grange? Frankly that doesn't surprise me in the least if it is accurate.
first he didnt decline...he was never offered the job ....secondly I believe the instruction was rather vague...second hand and cannot be verified.... On what basis was this claim made ...solid facts or just a rumour...we dont know. It seems that when it comes to criticising the mccanns any piece of second hand claim will do...in their defense...basically nothing is accepted
-
But what are we to read into what Rowley said about the non investigation of the parents by OG,step by step but mind the very first step.
Scoping exercise? Surely a bit remiss if the role of Madeleine's parents didn't come into consideration somewhere there and in the intervening period in the five years before Operation Grange came into play including no doubt the statement from the thirteen hour questioning session Kate endured before being constituted arguida - which no-one else but the Rebelo investigation had seen?
In answer to the interviewer's question: "Did you formally interview the McCann’s under caution, or ever consider them as suspects?"
The AC Mark Rowley replied:
"So when we started, we started five or so years into this and there is already a lot of ground been covered, we don’t cover the same ground, what we do is pull all the material we had at the start, all the Portuguese material, private detective material, with all the work that had been done, what that evidence supports, what rules these lines of enquiry out, what keeps them open and you progress forward.
It would be no different if there were a cold case in London, a missing person from 1990, we would go back to square one look at all the material and if the material was convincing it ruled out that line of enquiry we would look somewhere else.
So you reflect on the original material, you challenge it, don’t take it at face value. You don’t restart an investigation pretending it doesn’t exist and do all the same enquiries again that is not constructive."
Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley
It seems that once the wheel has been invented it is considered less than productive to start drawing up blueprints to invent it again ... I certainly think so.
-
Thank you, I have read the 'remit' which in my opinion was as a result of the findings of the scoping exercise ... which determined whether or not a review was justified.
In my opinion part of the scoping exercise must have involved looking at the theories and possibilities ... why ask or expect as I intimated in my previous post that each step of a recent investigation is repeated and repeated and repeated.
At some stage decisions have to be taken and directions taken from what has been learned from the previous step and built upon. It is all a progression ... not a fly in aspic.
You reckon someone did a proper scoping exercise? &%%6
Someone perhaps used the expression because it sounds impressive to the uninitiated but I doubt the genuine article was ever produced. imnsho of course
-
You reckon someone did a proper scoping exercise? &%%6
Someone perhaps used the expression because it sounds impressive to the uninitiated but I doubt the genuine article was ever produced. imnsho of course
Just because SY say they did a scoping exercise doesnt make it true...but if Mrs Fenn says she heard a child crying for 90 mins then its fact.
-
Just because SY say they did a scoping exercise doesnt make it true...but if Mrs Fenn says she heard a child crying for 90 mins then its fact.
That davel applies to abduction.
Merely because you believe one happened, doesn't make it true.
-
When the review by Operation Grange began in May 2011 the strategy was examine, in this order;
1. The Portuguese evidence.
2. The Leicestershire Police evidence.
3. The Private Investigator's evidence.
Three months after they began, the Daily Star asked what their remit was under an F.O.I. request. The Met refused. Following an appeal it was finally handed over after six months.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/56dec11/STAR_18_12_2011.htm
The question is, when was it written? Clearly before the review was finished.
.......only now have detectives put in writing that her case is one of abduction.
The Met at first refused to release paperwork under the Freedom of Information Act on the grounds it would “adversely harm the investigation”.
But, after an appeal, police finally handed over details to the Daily Star Sunday last week after a wait of nearly three months.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/56dec11/STAR_18_12_2011.htm
-
When the review by Operation Grange began in May 2011 the strategy was examine, in this order;
1. The Portuguese evidence.
2. The Leicestershire Police evidence.
3. The Private Investigator's evidence.
Three months after they began, the Daily Star asked what their remit was under an F.O.I. request. The Met refused. Following an appeal it was finally handed over after six months.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/56dec11/STAR_18_12_2011.htm
The question is, when was it written? Clearly before the review was finished.
.......only now have detectives put in writing that her case is one of abduction.
The Met at first refused to release paperwork under the Freedom of Information Act on the grounds it would “adversely harm the investigation”.
But, after an appeal, police finally handed over details to the Daily Star Sunday last week after a wait of nearly three months.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/56dec11/STAR_18_12_2011.htm
When was the review written....an interesting question. I remember this being discussed before......
-
The Supreme Court is the highest judicial authority in Portugal and they aren't convinced so that is good enough for me. As far as they are concerned the McCanns have not established their non culpability in matters arising from Maddie's disappearance. Hopefully the PJ will get their act together and finish investigating everything that went on post disappearance, something that SY have been prevented from doing.
Did Leicestershire Police not express a similar point of view? or has that point of view been subsequently rescinded by Leicestershire Police?
-
Did Leicestershire Police not express a similar point of view? or has that point of view been subsequently rescinded by Leicestershire Police?
It's all about context Alice...I believe the McCann's were arguidos at the time
-
It's all about context Alice
Oh right and what context would that be ?
Please do explain.
-
Oh right and what context would that be ?
Please do explain.
The McCann's were arguidos at the time
-
Anna, a wonderful friend, and I regularly used to communicate by email. She certainly NEVER thought that the Mccanns were involved in any way.
However, she may have thought that no-one would ever crack the case without a confession. And thta might turn out to be true if enough evidence cannot be collected to convict.
-
Anna, a wonderful friend, and I regularly used to communicate by email. She certainly NEVER thought that the Mccanns were involved in any way.
However, she may have thought that no-one would ever crack the case without a confession. And thta might turn out to be true if enough evidence cannot be collected to convict.
There may be several ways in which the case could be solved...it isn't just limited to a confession
-
first he didnt decline...he was never offered the job ....secondly I believe the instruction was rather vague...second hand and cannot be verified.... On what basis was this claim made ...solid facts or just a rumour...we dont know. It seems that when it comes to criticising the mccanns any piece of second hand claim will do...in their defense...basically nothing is accepted
He certainly made it very clear that governmental interference in the case continues.
-
He certainly made it very clear that governmental interference in the case continues.
I don't see that he did....can you back up that statement with any evidence...he didn't mention govt interference
-
He certainly made it very clear that governmental interference in the case continues.
He who pays the piper...............
-
The McCann's were arguidos at the time
So?
-
There is evidence that OG went into this case with the intention of investigating an abduction. I don't understand why it's unrealistic to accept that The Met may have got it wrong. There's no evidence that they're infallible.
There's no need for conspiracies and cover-ups either. I've seen lots of people saying it's ludicrous to suggest that the parents could be involved. I've never seen one person give a coherent reason why they hold that view. It seems to rest purely on opinion.
Those opinions, however, have dominated how the parents have been perceived and have been repeated so often they're seen as accepted facts, just as the parents having been cleared became an accepted fact.
It seems perfectly possible to me that those making the decisions about Operation Grange truly believed that the parents weren't involved. Whether they were right or not remains to be seen; or not, as the case may be.
I was really surprised to read that's what you think G. AFAIAC there is no singular reason why folk believe the McCanns were not involved - and the multitude of reasons why they don't believe they were involved have been an integral part of the discussions on here from day one imo.
It is the sum total of all those reasons which led me to believe that Madeleine was removed from 5A by a stranger.
As far as SY is concerned, it seems to me that they have been subjected to the same treatment by some sceptics that everyone else who publicly supports abduction is automatically subjected to. i.e. They have to be denigrated, criticised, belittled, mocked, insulted (take your pick) at all costs.
I agree that SY are not infallible. However the idea that highly professional detectives dedicated to bringing criminals to justice are so stupid, gullible and incompetent that they would remove the McCanns and their friends from their enquiries -if they had the slightest suspicion that any of them were involved - is as ludicrous as it gets IMO.
AIMHO
-
Would you like to tell us exactly what the SC said......I dont remember them using the word convinced. As I understand they said the McCanns had not proved their innocence...well...they dont have to and its just about impossible to do so, something the ECHR may look at. Despite what you say ...the portuguese investigation dont seem to share the view of the SC.
Your claim that SY have been prevented from investigating the mccanns is opinion not fact and imo ...risible
The SC had no choice but to clarify the position over innocence given the comments emanating from team McCann. This all goes back to the initial investigation of course and the earlier comments by the Prosecutor to the Attorney General in which it was pointed out that the parents had failed to avail of the opportunity to demonstrate their innocence. It is their conduct which is risible imo.
As for SY being prevented from undertaking a full and transparent investigation I suggest you take that up with Rowley. There are several issues which stink to high heaven and those must be fully investigated.
-
I was really surprised to read that's what you think G. AFAIAC there is no singular reason why folk believe the McCanns were not involved - and the multitude of reasons why they don't believe they were involved have been an integral part of the discussions on here from day one imo.
It is the sum total of all those reasons which led me to believe that Madeleine was removed from 5A by a stranger.
As far as SY is concerned, it seems to me that they have been subjected to the same treatment by some sceptics that everyone else who publicly supports abduction is automatically subjected to. i.e. They have to be denigrated, criticised, belittled, mocked, insulted (take your pick) at all costs.
I agree that SY are not infallible. However the idea that highly professional detectives dedicated to bringing criminals to justice are so stupid, gullible and incompetent that they would remove the McCanns and their friends from their enquiries -if they had the slightest suspicion that any of them were involved - is as ludicrous as it gets IMO.
AIMHO
IMO theories of abduction depend on a belief in the evidence of the parents. IMO people who question that evidence based on the discrepancies it contain are more likely to think something else happened other than the accepted narrative.
-
The SC had no choice but to clarify the position over innocence given the comments emanating from team McCann. This all goes back to the initial investigation of course and the earlier comments by the Prosecutor to the Attorney General in which it was pointed out that the parents had failed to avail of the opportunity to demonstrate their innocence. It is their conduct which is risible imo.
As for SY being prevented from undertaking a full and transparent investigation I suggest you take that up with Rowley. There are several issues which stink to high heaven and those must be fully investigated.
As I have asked many times before - but to no avail:-
Can you explain how a recon would have demonstrated the McCanns innocence. Their 'innocence' of what exactly?
-
IMO theories of abduction depend on a belief in the evidence of the parents. IMO people who question that evidence based on the discrepancies it contain are more likely to think something else happened other than the accepted narrative.
Anyone who thinks any UK police officer simply asked the McCanns if they had dunnit and when they said 'No we didn't' - they said ''OK we believe you'' you is living in cloud cuckoo land IMO.
There are many discrepancies which experienced policemen would consider to be perfectly normal when asking many people to recall the same events.
It is only armchair detective with no experience of how fallible witnesses memories are who think that discrepancies automatically mean someone must be lying IMO.
It is also a fact IMO that any potential suspicious discrepancies - especially those which appear in summarised statements, could easily be cleared up by talking directly to the witnesses involved. Unlike our police officers - we can't do that.
AIMHO
-
Anyone who thinks any UK police officer simply asked the McCanns if they had dunnit and when they said 'No we didn't' - they said ''OK we believe you'' you is living in cloud cuckoo land IMO.
There are many discrepancies which experienced policemen would consider to be perfectly normal when asking many people to recall the same events.
It is only armchair detective with no experience of how fallible witnesses memories are who think that discrepancies automatically mean someone must be lying IMO.
It is also a fact IMO that any potential suspicious discrepancies - especially those which appear in summarised statements, could easily be cleared up by talking directly to the witnesses involved. Unlike our police officers - we can't do that.
AIMHO
Who mentioned the police?
-
As I have asked many times before - but to no avail:-
Can you explain how a recon would have demonstrated the McCanns innocence. Their 'innocence' of what exactly?
It would have revealed who lied.
-
Who mentioned the police?
I did in the post you were replying to.
I therefore assumed the Police were included in your following response.
''IMO theories of abduction depend on a belief in the evidence of the parents.''
If your reply did not include the police in that belief - then fair enough - my mistake.
-
It would have revealed who lied.
In what way? Please elaborate.
Absolutely nothing of any value could have been revealed from a recon unless it could be guaranteed that a virtually 100% exact replication by 10 people of all their movements over several hours during a day 12 months prior was achievable. As no-one could remember enough about the times they did things to achieve the accuracy vitally required to prove anything - then it would be doomed from the start.
IMO it would be tantamount to expect every member of a football team to be able to return to the field and exactly replicate from memory every move they made during a match they played yonks ago.
Pure nonsense.
AIMHO
-
In what way? Please elaborate.
Absolutely nothing of any value could have been revealed from a recon unless it could be guaranteed that a virtually 100% exact replication by 10 people of all their movements over several hours during a day 12 months prior was achievable. As no-one could remember enough about the times they did things to achieve the accuracy vitally required to prove anything - then it would be doomed from the start.
IMO it would be tantamount to expect every member of a football team to be able to return to the field and exactly replicate from memory every move they made during a match they played yonks ago.
Pure nonsense.
AIMHO
The 'passing Jez and Gerry' scenario wouldn't be hard to replicate.
-
I was really surprised to read that's what you think G. AFAIAC there is no singular reason why folk believe the McCanns were not involved - and the multitude of reasons why they don't believe they were involved have been an integral part of the discussions on here from day one imo.
It is the sum total of all those reasons which led me to believe that Madeleine was removed from 5A by a stranger.
As far as SY is concerned, it seems to me that they have been subjected to the same treatment by some sceptics that everyone else who publicly supports abduction is automatically subjected to. i.e. They have to be denigrated, criticised, belittled, mocked, insulted (take your pick) at all costs.
I agree that SY are not infallible. However the idea that highly professional detectives dedicated to bringing criminals to justice are so stupid, gullible and incompetent that they would remove the McCanns and their friends from their enquiries -if they had the slightest suspicion that any of them were involved - is as ludicrous as it gets IMO.
AIMHO
I wasn't actually referring to anonymous posters on here, but to those in the public eye.
Some people seem to have been convinced of the parent's innocence merely by meeting them;
Sir Paul Stephenson
Jim Gamble
Brian Kennedy
Others were convinced by seeing their reactions;
The T7
Alex Woolfall
Alan Pike
Ian Horrocks made a better attempt (but not much)
there is no family history that would point in any way to this.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8185.0
-
It would have revealed who lied.
It would also have revealed whether or not it tied up with the whizzy little "timeway" diagram the PJ did on Analysts Notebook.
IMO thereby hangs a tale.
-
Operation Grange concentrated on the period between 8.30 pm and 10 pm. Which of the three documented 'sitting down and ordering' times did they choose to use, I wonder?
-
Operation Grange concentrated on the period between 8.30 pm and 10 pm. Which of the three documented 'sitting down and ordering' times did they choose to use, I wonder?
If as Mr Rowley stated OG relied on info collected, collated and generated by the first investigation they will have copies of all the whizzy and not so whizzy stuff spewed out by PJ's Analyst's Notebook...... *%87.... 8(>((
All in my 'umblest opinion Master Copperfield.
-
If as Mr Rowley stated OG relied on info collected, collated and generated by the first investigation they will have copies of all the whizzy and not so whizzy stuff spewed out by PJ's Analyst's Notebook...... *%87.... 8(>((
All in my 'umblest opinion Master Copperfield.
Is there a link to that?
-
I wasn't actually referring to anonymous posters on here, but to those in the public eye.
Some people seem to have been convinced of the parent's innocence merely by meeting them;
Sir Paul Stephenson
Jim Gamble
Brian Kennedy
Others were convinced by seeing their reactions;
The T7
Alex Woolfall
Alan Pike
Ian Horrocks made a better attempt (but not much)
there is no family history that would point in any way to this.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8185.0
IMO people who have actually met and spent time with the McCanns have a huge advantage over people who have never met them - especially when it comes to assessing the credibility of their actions/reactions and general behaviour.
IMO the opinions and conclusions of those people trained to observe - i.e. trauma counsellors like Alan Pike and the FLOs are far more reliable than the opinions of people who have never met them. Those people had the advantage of regularly witnessing the McCanns in private and out of the public eye.
Once again I refer to the Shannon Matthews case, where it was the FLO who first became suspicious of her mother because of her behaviour when in the privacy of her own home.
I very much doubt than anyone who believes in their innocence has come to that conclusion with no prior knowledge about the case - but purely on the strength of a meeting with them. That's simply not credible IMO.
AIMHO
-
Is there a link to that?
Yes. Oddly Brietta or Misty posted it.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/OUSTROS_APENSOS_11_VOLUMES.htm
The interesting bit from my perspective is the difference between Analyst's Notebook and HOLMES.
And also the belly laugh generated when it plops out the PJ were using state of the art software and not licked pencils and post it notes....ooops who started that myth which lost nothing in the telling?
-
IMO people who have actually met and spent time with the McCanns have a huge advantage over people who have never met them - especially when it comes to assessing the credibility of their actions/reactions and general behaviour.
IMO the opinions and conclusions of those people trained to observe - i.e. trauma counsellors like Alan Pike and the FLOs are far more reliable than the opinions of people who have never met them. Those people had the advantage of regularly witnessing the McCanns in private and out of the public eye.
Once again I refer to the Shannon Matthews case, where it was the FLO who first became suspicious of her mother because of her behaviour when in the privacy of her own home.
I very much doubt than anyone who believes in their innocence has come to that conclusion with no prior knowledge about the case - but purely on the strength of a meeting with them. That's simply not credible IMO.
AIMHO
I've never been sure how you can tell the difference between trauma displayed at the death of a child and trauma displayed at their disappearance.
-
I've never been sure how you can tell the difference between trauma displayed at the death of a child and trauma displayed at their disappearance.
There is a difference IMO Faith. The trauma displayed may be identical to begin with but would change as time went on.
Losing a child to death is traumatic but because it is 'final' and unchangeable - then there would be a degree of 'acceptance' - which is not possible for those dealing with the belief that their child has been abducted- as there is a continuous never-ending feeling of despair, fear and grief. There is no closure for the latter tragedy.
IMO experienced trained counsellors would be able to differentiate between the trauma suffered by those parents whose child has died, and those parents who believe their child has been taken, but may still be alive - as time went on.
AIMHO
(Must go out now.)
-
Jez couldn't place his chat with Gerry to a smaller window than 8.45-9.15pm. Two checks could have been made by Gerry, one around 9.00 ( it would certainly explain why Diane Webster said in her second statement that she didn't cross paths with Matthew on the way to the tapas and didn't think Gerry was there when she arrived) and 9.30, explaining Matthew's rather vague check. Perhaps that check didn't happen at all and it was Gerry who checked instead and it was then he found Madeleine ?
-
There is a difference IMO Faith. The trauma displayed may be identical to begin with but would change as time went on.
Losing a child to death is traumatic but because it is 'final' and unchangeable - then there would be a degree of 'acceptance' - which is not possible for those dealing with the belief that their child has been abducted- as there is a continuous never-ending feeling of despair, fear and grief. There is no closure for the latter tragedy.
IMO experienced trained counsellors would be able to differentiate between the trauma suffered by those parents whose child has died, and those parents who believe their child has been taken, but may still be alive - as time went on.
AIMHO
(Must go out now.)
We have seen how 'normal' the McCanns can behave even when going through the most tragic of circumstances. Do you not think the ability to fit their behaviour to the circumstances could have been utilise elsewhere ?
-
We have seen how 'normal' the McCanns can behave even when going through the most tragic of circumstances. Do you not think the ability to fit their behaviour to the circumstances could have been utilise elsewhere ?
So how 'normal' were they? What is normal, keeping a straight face? not crying? can you see inside their heads? Witnesses saw how distraught they were after finding Madeleine missing, that wasn't play acting IMO
-
IMO people who have actually met and spent time with the McCanns have a huge advantage over people who have never met them - especially when it comes to assessing the credibility of their actions/reactions and general behaviour.
IMO the opinions and conclusions of those people trained to observe - i.e. trauma counsellors like Alan Pike and the FLOs are far more reliable than the opinions of people who have never met them. Those people had the advantage of regularly witnessing the McCanns in private and out of the public eye.
Once again I refer to the Shannon Matthews case, where it was the FLO who first became suspicious of her mother because of her behaviour when in the privacy of her own home.
I very much doubt than anyone who believes in their innocence has come to that conclusion with no prior knowledge about the case - but purely on the strength of a meeting with them. That's simply not credible IMO.
AIMHO
Sir Paul Stephenson and Brian Kennedy decided they were innocent on the basis of one meeting with them. Jim Gamble appears to base his opinion on having met them and observed them with the twins.
Alan Pike's job was to help them to carry on, and the advice he gave them was suitable for bereavement or abduction because the effect on those left behind is very similar.
The McCanns dispensed with the services of the UK FLO's quite quickly. We don't know why, but Amaral says they asked uncomfortable questions.
Mostly people are offering their opinions. Whether their opinions are correct remains to be seen.
-
One thing I find strange - When Kate told her friends that they'd left the door unlocked, why her friends didn't immediately say " Are you crazy, how can you think that is safe?" Instead they just accepted it without comment and goy on with their meal.
-
One thing I find strange - When Kate told her friends that they'd left the door unlocked, why her friends didn't immediately say " Are you crazy, how can you think that is safe?" Instead they just accepted it without comment and goy on with their meal.
That is the official story.
-
Some flights still being made out to Portugal it seems,no mention of Belgium.
https://www.met.police.uk/globalassets/foi-media/disclosure_2017/august_2017/information-rights-unit---return-flights-to-portugal-made-by-mps-officers-working-on-operation-grange-in-2017
Freedom of Information Request Reference No:
I note you seek access to the following information:
Please disclose the total number of return flights to Portugal made by officers working on Operation Grange in 2017.
Please disclose the total cost of the flights.
DECISION
I have today decided to disclose the located information to you in full.
To date there have been 2 return flights to Portugal this year.
In March three officers flew to Portugal at a total cost of £750 - whilst in May 2 officers flew to Portugal, costs being £500.
I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your interest in the Metropolitan Police Service.
Information Rights Unit
-
March; Decisions of the Supreme Court in the news.
-
Some flights still being made out to Portugal it seems,no mention of Belgium.
https://www.met.police.uk/globalassets/foi-media/disclosure_2017/august_2017/information-rights-unit---return-flights-to-portugal-made-by-mps-officers-working-on-operation-grange-in-2017
I fail to see why any more than one officer should travel to Portugal given that they have no police powers the moment they leave British airspace? Two is unjustified IMO, three is taking the piss.
-
Some flights still being made out to Portugal it seems,no mention of Belgium.
https://www.met.police.uk/globalassets/foi-media/disclosure_2017/august_2017/information-rights-unit---return-flights-to-portugal-made-by-mps-officers-working-on-operation-grange-in-2017
There are 4 locations in Portugal that might explain this. I don't think the SC decision has any connection, as they could have waited in Blighty for that. My 4 potential locations do not include Luz, because as John has pointed out, once in Portugal, OG are restricted to being ordinary citizens.
Here's the 4.
Porto - for the Porto investigation.
Coimbra - for the forensics
Lisbon - for Pedro do Carmo
Faro - for the final countdown.
Pure speculation on my part, but I'm going for Lisbon in March and Faro in May.
Pedro do Carmo appeared on more than one 10th anniversary special. It makes sense that he was briefed on OG progress (and Porto progress) and lines of enquiry before appearing on these TV specials. So I am speculating on a March meeting in Lisbon with 3 officers, 2 from the OG team, and 1 at Pedro's rank.
The May journey does not link well with the 10th anniversary. So I am speculating on a trip to Faro, to meet the PJ, for a discussion about the alleged last line of enquiry.
-
I fail to see why any more than one officer should travel to Portugal given that they have no police powers the moment they leave British airspace? Two is unjustified IMO, three is taking the piss.
Of course we don't know who these officers were, they could have been high ranking ones, rather than 3 plods having a jolly.
-
There are 4 locations in Portugal that might explain this. I don't think the SC decision has any connection, as they could have waited in Blighty for that. My 4 potential locations do not include Luz, because as John has pointed out, once in Portugal, OG are restricted to being ordinary citizens.
Here's the 4.
Porto - for the Porto investigation.
Coimbra - for the forensics
Lisbon - for Pedro do Carmo
Faro - for the final countdown.
Pure speculation on my part, but I'm going for Lisbon in March and Faro in May.
Pedro do Carmo appeared on more than one 10th anniversary special. It makes sense that he was briefed on OG progress (and Porto progress) and lines of enquiry before appearing on these TV specials. So I am speculating on a March meeting in Lisbon with 3 officers, 2 from the OG team, and 1 at Pedro's rank.
The May journey does not link well with the 10th anniversary. So I am speculating on a trip to Faro, to meet the PJ, for a discussion about the alleged last line of enquiry.
The Supreme Court judgement changed everything in my opinion. It destroyed the McCann's claim that they were cleared when the first investigation was archived. It was so important that A C Rowley had to try to justify Operation Grange's stance. His efforts would have been wasted if Pedro hadn't said what he said. I think that's what the March visit was for.
-
There are 4 locations in Portugal that might explain this. I don't think the SC decision has any connection, as they could have waited in Blighty for that. My 4 potential locations do not include Luz, because as John has pointed out, once in Portugal, OG are restricted to being ordinary citizens.
Here's the 4.
Porto - for the Porto investigation.
Coimbra - for the forensics
Lisbon - for Pedro do Carmo
Faro - for the final countdown.
Pure speculation on my part, but I'm going for Lisbon in March and Faro in May.
Pedro do Carmo appeared on more than one 10th anniversary special. It makes sense that he was briefed on OG progress (and Porto progress) and lines of enquiry before appearing on these TV specials. So I am speculating on a March meeting in Lisbon with 3 officers, 2 from the OG team, and 1 at Pedro's rank.
The May journey does not link well with the 10th anniversary. So I am speculating on a trip to Faro, to meet the PJ, for a discussion about the alleged last line of enquiry.
Coimbra for the forensics imo, one of the visits,its the only thing that can keep the investigation alive,again imo.
-
Operation Grange is overseen by a Gold Group. Such groups can include representatives from various other agencies. Operation Task, for example, was led by the ACC of LC and included representatives from the CPS, FCO and the Home Office. Policing representatives were from ACPO, CEOP, MPS, MPIA and the SIO.
The debrief of Operation Task, carried out in 2009, says the group developed a strategy. One of their aims was to "secure and preserve evidence which may assist in the investigation of her abduction"
http://library.college.police.uk/docs/npia/Strategic-debrief-operation-task-2009.pdf (Page 9)
So Operation Task appear to have decided what crime had been committed. I'm not sure what 'securing' evidence means, but it seems they were interested in a specific type of evidence. That which "may assist in the investigation of her abduction"
Given the above, it's hardly surprising that Operation Grange appear to have restricted their investigation to abduction; that opinion was formed as long ago as 2007 in the UK, it seems.
-
Just found an interesting question and answer in parliament,it regards the investigation of murder of british nationals,but it surely equally applies in this case with Op Task stating there is no jurisdiction for brit police abroad,it also begs the question when did PJ ask for assistance,is it the reason for their reopening after I believe OG was set up.
It is important to recognise that UK police officers can assist in a foreign state’s investigation of crimes committed overseas only with the express invitation of the host Government,
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2017-01-17/debates/5656F638-DB1A-4510-8706-40C0878B47DB/MurderOfUKNationalsAbroad
-
How does the Home office separate OG wages from ordinary policing,DCI Wall is busy doing other things.
Obviously OG is on the back burner for DCI Wall.
Detective Chief Inspector Nicola Wall, from the Homicide and Major Crime Command, is leading the investigation.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5218079/Woman-feared-murdered-Christmas-Eve.html#ixzz52aYn5Yfh
-
How does the Home office separate OG wages from ordinary policing,DCI Wall is busy doing other things.
Obviously OG is on the back burner for DCI Wall.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5218079/Woman-feared-murdered-Christmas-Eve.html#ixzz52aYn5Yfh
She may well be involved in several investigations....
-
How does the Home office separate OG wages from ordinary policing,DCI Wall is busy doing other things.
Obviously OG is on the back burner for DCI Wall.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5218079/Woman-feared-murdered-Christmas-Eve.html#ixzz52aYn5Yfh
It's quite common for professionals such as accountants and solicitors to carry out work for more than one client in a day. In order to bill the clients fairly a diary of time spent is kept. It is then charged to the clients at the rate agreed for that particular person.
In a firms internal accounts wages are often split in a similar manner between projects. DCI Wall's time will be recorded then allocated to whatever cases she's worked on during that period of time.
-
It's quite common for professionals such as accountants and solicitors to carry out work for more than one client in a day. In order to bill the clients fairly a diary of time spent is kept. It is then charged to the clients at the rate agreed for that particular person.
In a firms internal accounts wages are often split in a similar manner between projects. DCI Wall's time will be recorded then allocated to whatever cases she's worked on during that period of time.
Always looking for a booking code...
-
Always looking for a booking code...
Exactly. 8((()*/ Staff were brought in as required during the life of Operation Grange so a record of time spent must have been kept. The actual costs should then have been compared with the projected costs and necessary adjustments carried forward.
-
It's quite common for professionals such as accountants and solicitors to carry out work for more than one client in a day. In order to bill the clients fairly a diary of time spent is kept. It is then charged to the clients at the rate agreed for that particular person.
In a firms internal accounts wages are often split in a similar manner between projects. DCI Wall's time will be recorded then allocated to whatever cases she's worked on during that period of time.
we agree.. I just couldnt be bothered to post something that was so obvious
-
we agree.. I just couldnt be bothered to post something that was so obvious
I have given an example of the correct way to track actual costs. Whether Operation Grange use that we don't know. We do know, from the debrief, that Operation Task didn't keep track of it's costs.
-
I have given an example of the correct way to track actual costs. Whether Operation Grange use that we don't know. We do know, from the debrief, that Operation Task didn't keep track of it's costs.
Did Task come out of the normal budget while grange is a seperate budget
-
Always looking for a booking code...
No job number no work!
-
Did Task come out of the normal budget while grange is a seperate budget
I think they got half a million after the event, but they didn't really know the true costs.
-
It's quite common for professionals such as accountants and solicitors to carry out work for more than one client in a day. In order to bill the clients fairly a diary of time spent is kept. It is then charged to the clients at the rate agreed for that particular person.
In a firms internal accounts wages are often split in a similar manner between projects. DCI Wall's time will be recorded then allocated to whatever cases she's worked on during that period of time.
In 2015 this was said.
A team of four officers will continue to work solely on the Grange investigation, funded by the Home Office. The enquiry has not reached a conclusion, there are still focused lines of investigation to be pursued.
This is clearly not the case any more,its either reached its conclusion or its on the back burner,so how does the expenditure work?
-
In 2015 this was said.This is clearly not the case any more,its either reached its conclusion or its on the back burner,so how does the expenditure work?
Four bodies funded from another budget available for routine duties.
Every manager's dream.... 8(>((
-
DCI Wall is tied up elsewhere it seems! See murdered North London barmaid
"Detective Chief Inspector Nicola Wall, from the Homicide and Major Crime Command, is leading the investigation."
http://news.met.police.uk/news/murder-investigation-launched-in-kilburn-244404
-
DCI Wall is tied up elsewhere it seems! See murdered North London barmaid
"Detective Chief Inspector Nicola Wall, from the Homicide and Major Crime Command, is leading the investigation."
http://news.met.police.uk/news/murder-investigation-launched-in-kilburn-244404
'DCI Nicola Wall said:'
She can speak?!
-
'DCI Nicola Wall said:'
She can speak?!
It would seem so.
Maybe she never had too much to say about OG for whatever reason.
-
It would seem so.
Maybe she never had too much to say about OG for whatever reason.
All communication seems to have been pushed upward to Rowley, who outranks her considerably.
-
All communication seems to have been pushed upward to Rowley, who outranks her considerably.
There should be a shedful of manhours in this latest murder case..................well you can see which way this line of thought is going.... @)(++(*
-
There should be a shedful of manhours in this latest murder case..................well you can see which way this line of thought is going.... @)(++(*
Yeah, and we should look at costs of this investigation more or less than 12 mill? They also have to deal with those acid attacks- horrific
-
Wonder who will do the talking for Operation Grange come March,thats if it continues.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/reuters/article-5251307/Britains-counter-terrorism-police-chief-Rowley-retire.html
LONDON, Jan 9 (Reuters) - Britain's top counter-terrorism police officer Mark Rowley will retire in March, the Metropolitan Police Service said on Tuesday, after a 31-year career in which he led efforts to curb a rise in militant attacks.
-
If this last lead fizzles out, or can't be taken any further, I expect the active investigation will come to an end. At least if anything potentially new and relevant turns up (whether directly related to Madeleine or to any of the reported sexual assaults, past or unfortunately perhaps future), they'll have a database to check against.
-
Don't somehow see a breakthrough this side of his retirement,he wouldn't announce it otherwise imo.
-
If this last lead fizzles out, or can't be taken any further, I expect the active investigation will come to an end. At least if anything potentially new and relevant turns up (whether directly related to Madeleine or to any of the reported sexual assaults, past or unfortunately perhaps future), they'll have a database to check against.
Given The Met have no authority in Portugal* I often wonder just where and what these leads are?
*much as the jingoistic Lord Palmerston disciples amongst us might wish that were to the contrary.
-
Given The Met have no authority in Portugal* I often wonder just where and what these leads are?
*much as the jingoistic Lord Palmerston disciples amongst us might wish that were to the contrary.
Civis brittanicus sum.....you did that in GCE history no doubt
-
Civis brittanicus sum.....you did that in GCE history no doubt
No old son and I haven't a bleedin' clue wot you is bangin' on abaht. I made reference to Lord Palmerston for the good of my health.
The correct quotation, however, appears to be:
“Civis Romanus sum” (“I am a Roman citizen”), “so also a British subject, in whatever land he may be, shall feel confident that the watchful eye and the strong arm of England will protect him against injustice and wrong.”
It is somewhat ironic that David Pacifico was a Portuguese Jew born in Gibraltar..... @)(++(*
-
Given The Met have no authority in Portugal* I often wonder just where and what these leads are?
*much as the jingoistic Lord Palmerston disciples amongst us might wish that were to the contrary.
LOL
No, I know they have no authority to directly conduct their own investigation in Portugal, but there are the ILOR and mutual assistance channels.
If ever enough evidence of what happened and who was responsible emerges, it would normally be up to the PT side to lay charges and lead a prosecution, although there are exceptions in some situations.
I'm sure we have an app a thread for that.
-
No old son and I haven't a bleedin' clue wot you is bangin' on abaht. I made reference to Lord Palmerston for the good of my health.
The correct quotation, however, appears to be:
“Civis Romanus sum” (“I am a Roman citizen”), “so also a British subject, in whatever land he may be, shall feel confident that the watchful eye and the strong arm of England will protect him against injustice and wrong.”
It is somewhat ironic that David Pacifico was a Portuguese Jew born in Gibraltar..... @)(++(*
It was a long time ago but I seem to remember Palmerston changed the Roman saying to brittanicus
-
LOL
No, I know they have no authority to directly conduct their own investigation in Portugal, but there are the ILOR and mutual assistance channels.
If ever enough evidence of what happened and who was responsible emerges, it would normally be up to the PT side to lay charges and lead a prosecution, although there are exceptions in some situations.
I'm sure we have an app a thread for that.
The Portuguese, Rowley told us, want the i's dotted and the t's crossed. It seems that OG will need to present a very strong case before the Portuguese will take any action.
-
The Portuguese, Rowley told us, want the i's dotted and the t's crossed. It seems that OG will need to present a very strong case before the Portuguese will take any action.
And quite rightly so.
-
And quite rightly so.
Hopefully it's normal practice for the Met to dot all the i's and cross all the t's.
-
The Portuguese, Rowley told us, want the i's dotted and the t's crossed. It seems that OG will need to present a very strong case before the Portuguese will take any action.
After the fiasco of the informal information sharing of confidential intelligence that that naughty fan somehow wafted straight into the path of a CdM hack who just happened to be outside the window, I somewhat doubt that the UK is terribly keen on taking the risk that that could happen again, either.
-
It was a long time ago but I seem to remember Palmerston changed the Roman saying to brittanicus
There would not appear to be evidence to suggest that assertion. If however you were around at the time as you seem suggest then........................
-
After the fiasco of the informal information sharing on confidential intelligence that that naughty fan somehow wafted straight into the path of a CdM hack who just happened to be outside the window, I somewhat doubt that the UK is terribly keen on taking the risk that that could happen again, either.
There have been plenty of stories about OG, just as there were during the first Portuguese investigation. Should we assume therefore that OG have actually been leaking? Perhaps it was the McCanns doing it? Why would they do that when it could have damaged Operation Grange's investigation?
Scotland Yard detectives investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann want to interview three burglars who were in the area when she went missing, it has been reported.
British officers formally asked Portugal for more help with their inquiry in a move which appears to suggest that fresh suspects or promising new lines have been identified, but police refused to give any details about the nature of the assistance being sought.
However, a spokesman for Kate and Gerry McCann, Madeleine’s parents, told the Daily Mirror he believed it was likely the burglars were the targets.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/10567828/Madeleine-McCann-Scotland-Yard-wants-to-interview-three-burglars.html
One of the recommendations in the debrief of Operation Task was to be careful when sharing information with families because 'information given in confidence' can be 'inadvertently made public by them'. It looks like OG didn't read that. (page 34)
-
There have been plenty of stories about OG, just as there were during the first Portuguese investigation. Should we assume therefore that OG have actually been leaking? Perhaps it was the McCanns doing it? Why would they do that when it could have damaged Operation Grange's investigation?
Scotland Yard detectives investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann want to interview three burglars who were in the area when she went missing, it has been reported.
British officers formally asked Portugal for more help with their inquiry in a move which appears to suggest that fresh suspects or promising new lines have been identified, but police refused to give any details about the nature of the assistance being sought.
However, a spokesman for Kate and Gerry McCann, Madeleine’s parents, told the Daily Mirror he believed it was likely the burglars were the targets.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/10567828/Madeleine-McCann-Scotland-Yard-wants-to-interview-three-burglars.html
One of the recommendations in the debrief of Operation Task was to be careful when sharing information with families because 'information given in confidence' can be 'inadvertently made public by them'. It looks like OG didn't read that. (page 34)
When you read an article claiming OG is doing this or doing that the first thing you have to ask yourself is who does this claim benefit ? The recent headlines claiming the McCanns or their friends hadn't been requestioned is a case in point. Who did that benefit ? OG who were being made to look incompetent or the McCanns who may well benefit in the future from OG looking incompetent ?
-
When you read an article claiming OG is doing this or doing that the first thing you have to ask yourself is who does this claim benefit ? The recent headlines claiming the McCanns or their friends hadn't been requestioned is a case in point. Who did that benefit ? OG who were being made to look incompetent or the McCanns who may well benefit in the future from OG looking incompetent ?
I would agree that this generally the case (IMO), but it was Rowley who volunteered this information, so no leak.
-
When you read an article claiming OG is doing this or doing that the first thing you have to ask yourself is who does this claim benefit ? The recent headlines claiming the McCanns or their friends hadn't been requestioned is a case in point. Who did that benefit ? OG who were being made to look incompetent or the McCanns who may well benefit in the future from OG looking incompetent ?
Who decided that Operation Grange looked incompetent? Or is that just your opinion?
Who decided that The McCanns may well benefit in future? Or is that just your opinion?
-
one of the slight positives in... in all of this is that there is so much rumour about what did and didn't happen, it's actually very difficult, if you're reading the newspapers, watching TV, to know what is true and what's not.
-
one of the slight positives in... in all of this is that there is so much rumour about what did and didn't happen, it's actually very difficult, if you're reading the newspapers, watching TV, to know what is true and what's not.
There is also the very sad realisation that there is a young woman (if still alive) or murdered 3 yearold laying rotting,and no one in the family ever acknowledge any responsibility for what they allowed to happen to their daughter. This forum is geared towards the pain and suffering of the parents etc. No one 'supporting' the parents, who may or may not be involved with her disappearance, ever want to talk about this. It is too upsetting. Trying to get to the truth will be upsetting but in all this the person who is/was the most genuinely upset would have been the true victim and that would be Madeleine Beth McCann.
OG should have treated her non return to her homeland as if she was 'missing' from school/nursery/home here in the UK. Rather that play lip service to the McCann PR about abduction. 12 million to find out no abduction took place as described by the family.
The NHS needs that Money.
-
It's all a game but a very expensive one. They must want to nail these perps so badly!
(http://i68.tinypic.com/aobcl2.jpg)
"We have got some critical lines of enquiry and we are working with the Portuguese on that, we are both interested in. Disclosing any more information on that will not help the investigation." MR
-
It's all a game but a very expensive one. They must want to nail these perps so badly!
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DTNJgx5XUAAy2Li.jpg)
Can you re size this pic pathy?
-
Done thanks.
-
one of the slight positives in... in all of this is that there is so much rumour about what did and didn't happen, it's actually very difficult, if you're reading the newspapers, watching TV, to know what is true and what's not.
So you and five others think that these rumours and difficulties are positives, do you?
Why?
-
one of the slight positives in... in all of this is that there is so much rumour about what did and didn't happen, it's actually very difficult, if you're reading the newspapers, watching TV, to know what is true and what's not.
It’s very confusing.
-
There is also the very sad realisation that there is a young woman (if still alive) or murdered 3 yearold laying rotting,and no one in the family ever acknowledge any responsibility for what they allowed to happen to their daughter. This forum is geared towards the pain and suffering of the parents etc. No one 'supporting' the parents, who may or may not be involved with her disappearance, ever want to talk about this. It is too upsetting. Trying to get to the truth will be upsetting but in all this the person who is/was the most genuinely upset would have been the true victim and that would be Madeleine Beth McCann.
OG should have treated her non return to her homeland as if she was 'missing' from school/nursery/home here in the UK. Rather that play lip service to the McCann PR about abduction. 12 million to find out no abduction took place as described by the family.
The NHS needs that Money.
What makes you think that contingency funds for a police investigation could have been routed to the NHS instead? I wouldn't worry, according to the Brexit bus, the NHS will soon be getting £350m a week...
-
one of the slight positives in... in all of this is that there is so much rumour about what did and didn't happen, it's actually very difficult, if you're reading the newspapers, watching TV, to know what is true and what's not.
A bit of context might be helpful, Spammy...
-
A bit of context might be helpful, Spammy...
Ok?
I made that comment in the context that this is a discussion forum, of which I am a member.