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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: G-Unit on May 23, 2017, 07:57:11 AM
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On the 4th May both parents told the police that Madeleine had said the twins were crying on the night of 2nd;
Madeleine asked the witness the reason why they had not gone to her room when the twins were crying.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm
Madeleine asked the interviewee why she had not come to look in the bedroom when the twins were crying
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm
In Gerry's 10th May statement he changes the story;
While they were taking breakfast MADELEINE addressed the mother and asked her ?why didn't you come last night when S*** and I were crying??.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
In Kate's 5th September interview, the police ask her about the incident;
Regarding the fact that Madeleine on the next morning, Thursday, during breakfast said to both of them that she had been crying and that nobody had come to her room, she presumes that this crying must have been before she and Gerry returned to the apartment.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm
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Looking at Gerry's statement "Between the 28th April, the day they arrived and the time the disappearance was discovered, he says that nothing unusual happened, only referring to an episode on the morning of the 3rd May, when Madeleine asked the witness the reason why they had not gone to her room when the twins were crying. As he did not hear anything, the witness did not go to the bedroom, however he finds his daughter's comment to be strange, maybe because it was the first time that she had made it."
From Kate's statement "Between the day of the arrival, April 28th, and the time that Madeleine's disappearance was discovered, the interviewee says that she noticed nothing unusual. She reports only one episode where, on the morning of Thursday May 3rd, Madeleine asked the interviewee why she had not come to look in the bedroom when the twins were crying. The interviewee states that she had heard nothing and had therefore not gone into the bedroom. She thought her daughter's comment strange because it was the first time she had talked about it. "
Those two paragraphs are really saying exactly the same thing. Did they have the same translator?
Kate "Thus, the interview was done in the presence of an interpreter: Natalia C.F. de A. "
Gerry "Being of British nationality he does not speak Portuguese and is assisted by the interpreter Natalia de Almeida." Same person used in Portugal. who translated them back to English?
Kate "TRANSLATIONS BY ANNA ESSE /ALBYM"
Gerry "TRANSLATION BY INES/ALBYM"
So the difference in the wording could be just the final translation?
Gerry's 10th May statement was taken by "the interpreter Alice Dias Homem de Gouveia Avakoff"
With Kate's arguido statement we are not clearly told who the interpreter: "an interpreter is present taken from a list provided by the Consulate, ADSR."
Kate "Regarding this night she says that none of the children cried, she would have noticed as she was in the room. Regarding the fact that Madeleine on the next morning, Thursday, during breakfast said to both of them that she had been crying and that nobody had come to her room, she presumes that this crying must have been before she and Gerry returned to the apartment. When she asked Madeleine about this however, the child gave no importance to the matter. On this night they also checked on the children every half hour; however she thinks that 45 minutes had gone by from the time of the last check to when they arrived, as exceptionally they went to the Tapas bar. On this day she thinks that Gerry arrived at the apartment around 23:50 and she arrived 5 minutes afterwards. She went to sleep in Madeleine's room 15/20 minutes afterwards. Before this she spent a few minutes in her bed next to Gerry's."
THIS WAS CONTRASTED WITH WHAT kATE HAD ORIGINALLY SAID "The interviewee and her husband sleep in one bedroom and the three children in the other. The twins sleep in cots, Madeleine in a normal bed, the other bed staying empty." There were some variations on that basic plan.
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Moving on, Jane and Fiona knew all about it; or did they? According to the McCann's statements on 4th May, the twins cried. According to her friends Kate told them a different story on the evening of 3rd.
Jane Tanner in her Rogatory interview on 8th April 2008;
I did have a conversation with Kate about, she’d said that she’d, Madeleine had said something strange about ‘Where were you last night when I woke up’. And, as I say, I can’t remember where in the meal she said this, but she did sort of say, oh I thought she said I thought that was a bit odd when, when Kate said, you know, Madeleine obviously she did say ‘Where were you when’, you know, I think she said ‘When S**n and I woke up’, I can’t remember whether it was when two of them woke up.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm
Fiona also mentions it on 10th May 2008
because I think Madeleine had said something 'Where were you mummy, me and S**n cried' and, you know, 'where were you'
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
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When I read that and what happens later I tend to think Madeleine had not been told that they were going of to the Tapas but left her thinking they were asleep in the apartment so when she woke up they would be there to attend to her.
So Madeleine must have looked into the bedroom and found Kate and Gerry not there so enquired "where were you?"
I have not yet seen any indication that implies someone else came to comfort the kids yet it is possible that someone did and possibly said "your mummy will be back soon" and put them back to bed.
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As a parent I would always value honesty, so I think it was important that I would be honest to the kids as well. If Kate during that day told Madeleine that if she woke up and needed mummy she could walk over to the Tapas because she was over there having her tea, I find that truly honest and something I would do too. She could have been told they will be coming to check every half hour to make sure the twins were OK too.
According to Kate the kids fell off to sleep very quickly and they were comforted by what they knew.
It is the "where were you" that is the most important bit. Because it implied Madeleine felt her parents were not telling her the whole story.
"Where were you?" is one step from "Why didn't you come?", for the first implies Madeleine knows you weren't there.
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Later, on 10th April 2008 there was a huge fuss. The McCanns accused the PJ of leaking their statements to a Spanish journalist;
Clarence had a phone call from a Spanish journalist who told him that he’d been given what appeared to be witness statements made by Gerry and me to the Portuguese police. The part of my statement in which he was interested was Madeleine’s comment to us on the morning of the day she disappeared: ‘Why didn’t you come when Sean and I cried last night?’ [Madeleine]
Kate doesn't appear to have noticed that she never used those words in her statement. Those are Gerry's words from his 10th May 2007 statement. They are also similar to the words used by Jane Tanner in her 8th April 2008 rogatory interview.
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JMO, but I can't believe that a child 3 years old would reproach her parents for leaving her and her siblings alone. First of all, at that age, she would have only been concerned about herself. Secondly, she would not be able to realise that what her parents did was not right because she would not be able to compare to what other parents do. Thirdly, she would have most likely have forgotten by the next morning what had happened.
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JMO, but I can't believe that a child 3 years old would reproach her parents for leaving her and her siblings alone. First of all, at that age, she would have only been concerned about herself. Secondly, she would not be able to realise that what her parents did was not right because she would not be able to compare to what other parents do. Thirdly, she would have most likely have forgotten by the next morning what had happened.
Kids say the darnedest things.
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JMO, but I can't believe that a child 3 years old would reproach her parents for leaving her and her siblings alone. First of all, at that age, she would have only been concerned about herself. Secondly, she would not be able to realise that what her parents did was not right because she would not be able to compare to what other parents do. Thirdly, she would have most likely have forgotten by the next morning what had happened.
It wasn't unusual, apparently, for Madeleine to alert her parents if the twins cried, but that does seem like a very complete story for a child of her age;
shortly after their arrival at the apartment. Madeleine came to his room saying that Amelie was crying and she couldn't sleep.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm
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It wasn't unusual, apparently, for Madeleine to alert her parents if the twins cried, but that does seem like a very complete story for a child of her age;
shortly after their arrival at the apartment. Madeleine came to his room saying that Amelie was crying and she couldn't sleep.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm
At home in Rothley Madeleine had her own room so having the twins in the room in 5A could have kept her awake
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Can someone point out why it would matter who of the three might have been crying?
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At home in Rothley Madeleine had her own room so having the twins in the room in 5A could have kept her awake
Until the age of about seven, my son was an atrocious sleeper. So bad that he was referred to a specialist.
Amongst other things, we were advised to put his younger sister, who slept like a log, in the same room. It did help, altho his sister then slept less soundly !!
But the combined disturbances during the night were considerably lessened. Just saying.
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Until the age of about seven, my son was an atrocious sleeper. So bad that he was referred to a specialist.
Amongst other things, we were advised to put his younger sister, who slept like a log, in the same room. It did help, altho his sister then slept less soundly !!
But the combined disturbances during the night were considerably lessened. Just saying.
I'm terrible with ticking clocks, I can't sleep if something is ticking for some reason i listen to it.
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Can someone point out why it would matter who of the three might have been crying?
The McCanns left their children home alone each evening from Sunday to Wednesday while they dined with their friends. On Thursday morning their daughter informed them that there had been crying the night before when they were absent. This didn't seem to alarm or cause concern to her parents because they left the children alone again on Thursday evening. Madeleine disappeared and they made sure they told the police on 4th May what Madeleine had said; that the twins had cried when they were out.
On 10th May Gerry gave another fuller statement and this time it was Madeleine and her brother who had cried, not the twins. So why the change in the story?
Madeleine asked the witness the reason why they had not gone to her room when the twins were crying.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm
While they were taking breakfast MADELEINE addressed the mother and asked her ?why didn't you come last night when S*** and I were crying??.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
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The McCanns left their children home alone each evening from Sunday to Wednesday while they dined with their friends. On Thursday morning their daughter informed them that there had been crying the night before when they were absent. This didn't seem to alarm or cause concern to her parents because they left the children alone again on Thursday evening. Madeleine disappeared and they made sure they told the police on 4th May what Madeleine had said; that the twins had cried when they were out.
On 10th May Gerry gave another fuller statement and this time it was Madeleine and her brother who had cried, not the twins. So why the change in the story?
Madeleine asked the witness the reason why they had not gone to her room when the twins were crying.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm
While they were taking breakfast MADELEINE addressed the mother and asked her ?why didn't you come last night when S*** and I were crying??.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Why does this matter so much to some? Everybody knows that I left my small children alone in similar circumstance. As it happens they never woke up, and they weren't abducted.
But why it should matter of who said what to whom? It hardly affects the outcome.
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Why does this matter so much to some? Everybody knows that I left my small children alone in similar circumstance. As it happens they never woke up, and they weren't abducted.
But why it should matter of who said what to whom? It hardly affects the outcome.
I agree.
Anyway - if it was all an invention - for whatever reason - then surely they would both be word perfect. ''Why didn't you come when Sean and I cried last night'' is hardly difficult to memorise.
IMO it's mistake to put too much reliance on summarised, twice translated statements being totally accurate. None of the summarised statements we have to go on have been signed by anyone to say that they are accurate translations of the previous translations. It only takes one wrongly translated word to change the whole meaning of a sentence.
IMO
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I agree.
Anyway - if it was all an invention - for whatever reason - then surely they would both be word perfect. ''Why didn't you come when Sean and I cried last night'' is hardly difficult to memorise.
IMO it's mistake to put too much reliance on summarised, twice translated statements being totally accurate. None of the summarised statements we have to go on have been signed by anyone to say that they are accurate translations of the previous translations. It only takes one wrongly translated word to change the whole meaning of a sentence.
IMO
And there is far too much of that going on at the moment.
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I agree.
Anyway - if it was all an invention - for whatever reason - then surely they would both be word perfect. ''Why didn't you come when Sean and I cried last night'' is hardly difficult to memorise.
IMO it's mistake to put too much reliance on summarised, twice translated statements being totally accurate. None of the summarised statements we have to go on have been signed by anyone to say that they are accurate translations of the previous translations. It only takes one wrongly translated word to change the whole meaning of a sentence.
IMO
In my opinion you should also be word perfect if your daughter said something before disappearing. You would not mix up 'me and S**an' or "S**n and I" with "the twins". Neither would an interpreter.
The McCanns said this incident was possibly significant because it could have been due to an abductor being in the apartment on Wednesday evening. At the same time they have played down the more obvious point; their children cried and they still left them alone to do it again. They don't seem very empathetic, do they?
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In my opinion you should also be word perfect if your daughter said something before disappearing. You would not mix up 'me and S**an' or "S**n and I" with "the twins". Neither would an interpreter.
The McCanns said this incident was possibly significant because it could have been due to an abductor being in the apartment on Wednesday evening. At the same time they have played down the more obvious point; their children cried and they still left them alone to do it again. They don't seem very empathetic, do they?
They were certainly teaching them how to manage independently.
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The independent evidence of the permanent resident who lived above the McCann's rental apartment related that the child cried for over an hour on the Tuesday night rendering her so perturbed and concerned that she phoned her friend to ask what she should do. She went out the following evening so as to avoid a repeat performance.
Madeleine questioned her mother on the Thursday morning which indicated the crying was indeed repeated on the Wednesday night.
There is also a report published in the Express that a couple entered the apartment on the Wednesday night having heard the crying which is extremely concerning. Has this middle-aged couple ever been identified?
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/400796/Mystery-couple-seen-going-into-McCanns-flat-on-night-before-sobbing-Madeleine-disappeared
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I agree.
Anyway - if it was all an invention - for whatever reason - then surely they would both be word perfect. ''Why didn't you come when Sean and I cried last night'' is hardly difficult to memorise.
IMO it's mistake to put too much reliance on summarised, twice translated statements being totally accurate. None of the summarised statements we have to go on have been signed by anyone to say that they are accurate translations of the previous translations. It only takes one wrongly translated word to change the whole meaning of a sentence.
IMO
Statements were signed so any later changes are noted. You don't have to remember what you said earlier if you're telling the truth. If it does change then you better have a good reason.
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They were certainly teaching them how to manage independently.
Is that supposed to be a joke?
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Is that supposed to be a joke?
I think they were a stickler for early childhood education. In fact this is evident in the way the kids were disciplined in one of the released home videos. Remember the one where Gerry interrogates the kids "who said Yeah, it Yes Daddy". How old are the kids?
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I think they were a stickler for early childhood education. In fact this is evident in the way the kids were disciplined in one of the released home videos. Remember the one where Gerry interrogates the kids "who said Yeah, it Yes Daddy". How old are the kids?
They were old enough to be instructed in the proper use of vocabulary. They will pick up slang soon enough when starting school.
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They were old enough to be instructed in the proper use of vocabulary. They will pick up slang soon enough when starting school.
OK and were they also teaching the kids to manage independently at night? Want a drink of water - well get your own.
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OK and were they also teaching the kids to manage independently at night? Want a drink of water - well get your own.
That remark isn't at all like you, Rob.
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That remark isn't at all like you, Rob.
My kids were brought up rough too. I think if what the McCanns did was bad then I'm worser still.
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They were old enough to be instructed in the proper use of vocabulary. They will pick up slang soon enough when starting school.
I expect by now they know lots of words, including when to use the f*** word, thanks to Mummy.
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I expect by now they know lots of words, including when to use the f*** word, thanks to Mummy.
and the Urban Dictionary definition of Tosser
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The independent evidence of the permanent resident who lived above the McCann's rental apartment related that the child cried for over an hour on the Tuesday night rendering her so perturbed and concerned that she phoned her friend to ask what she should do. She went out the following evening so as to avoid a repeat performance.
Madeleine questioned her mother on the Thursday morning which indicated the crying was indeed repeated on the Wednesday night.
There is also a report published in the Express that a couple entered the apartment on the Wednesday night having heard the crying which is extremely concerning. Has this middle-aged couple ever been identified?
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/400796/Mystery-couple-seen-going-into-McCanns-flat-on-night-before-sobbing-Madeleine-disappeared
In the other thread it was quoted as the McCanns thought the same couple may have come back the next night (Thursday night), or something like that.
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In the other thread it was quoted as the McCanns thought the same couple may have come back the next night (Thursday night), or something like that.
I had the same thought. For all we know they took pity on the child hearing her crying every night and decided to act.
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I had the same thought. For all we know they took pity on the child hearing her crying every night and decided to act.
Come on John; we dont know whose child was crying on the Tuesday night.
Citation please.
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I had the same thought. For all we know they took pity on the child hearing her crying every night and decided to act.
That is the basis of my theory, the need to do something. I don't think they went as far as planning to kidnap her.
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Come on John; we dont know whose child was crying on the Tuesday night.
Citation please.
Mrs Fenn was the witness. The McCanns wouldn't know who was crying if they weren't there 8(>((
"She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted 'Daddy, Daddy', the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
She also said that she never told the McCann's that she had heard their daughter crying previously on 1st May because she thought it would just increase their suffering."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
Tuesday Quiz Night
"A bit of banter, the quiz night, erm, so we all joined in that and lost. Erm, I don't know, generally we all sort of got back, yeah, we were usually the last there, just I think because we were eating later."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
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Come on John; we dont know whose child was crying on the Tuesday night.
Citation please.
Oh but we do, it was the McCanns. We have looked at this issue on another thread in detail so I suggest you do a bit of catching up.
Tuesday evening 1st May. Mrs Fenn at home and disturbed by a crying child in the apartment immediately below her. So distraught she considered phoning the GNR. Crying stopped when patio door opened on parents return.
Wednesday evening 2nd May. Mrs Fenn went out to visit her friend in order to avoid a repetition of the previous evenings crying.
Thursday evening 3rd May. Mrs Fenn at home when she hears a commotion outside and when she looks over her balcony to enquire what is going on is told in some choice language that a young girl has gone missing.
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Reposted:
Even Amaral in his book does not name Mrs Fenn as the person who heard a child crying - and that's because she didn't name any child in her statement.
When she said she didn't want to upset the parents, that does not necessarily mean she was sure it was Madeleine - as it could just as easily mean she didn't want to upset the parents in case it wasn't Madeleine whom she heard.
Very similar to Jane Tanner - who although she told the police what she had seen, didn't want to tell Kate at that stage - in case it wasn't Madeleine who she'd seen being carried away.
IOW neither of them wanted to add to the fear and anxiety already being experienced by Kate and Gerry at that time - in case they were wrong.
End
Does anyone know if there is anything in the files to indicate the McCanns and/or their friends opinions/comments on Mrs. Fenn's claims re Tuesday night? Were they asked about them? I can't remember reading anything - but obviously that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
AIMHO
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I find this discussion quite perplexing. Why would Kate mention it and pass it of as a matter of fact, a nothing really to worry about thing. We don't get a beginning, or end... I mean how exactly did that conversation go? I am left feeling the parents really didn't care about their children to leave them again after Maddie obviously upset by the episode that she talks about it, seems to go over their heads.
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I think we need to look very closely at the Fenn statements
Is there two to consider http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm and http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
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The real drama of the night is partially revealed in Pamela's statement. In Pamela Fenn's statement there is another hint about the GNR Police being temporarily standing down. "She also refers to an episode when Gerry was speaking to a policeman and he refused to recognised the police force, saying that more agents of authority were needed to carry out the search". Why did Gerry not want the apartment searched, and why did he just say out of the blue to Pamela Fenn that it was a little girl that was abducted. "Upon leaning over the terrace, after having seen the mother, Mrs Fenn asked the father, Gerry, what was happening to which he replied that a small girl had been abducted. When asked, she replied that she did not leave her apartment, just spoke to Gerry from her balcony, which had a view over the terrace of the floor below. She found it strange that Gerry when said that a girl had been abducted, he did not mention that it was his daughter and that he did not mention any other scenarios."
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The real drama of the night is partially revealed in Pamela's statement. In Pamela Fenn's statement there is another hint about the GNR Police being temporarily standing down. "She also refers to an episode when Gerry was speaking to a policeman and he refused to recognised the police force, saying that more agents of authority were needed to carry out the search". Why did Gerry not want the apartment searched, and why did he just say out of the blue to Pamela Fenn that it was a little girl that was abducted. "Upon leaning over the terrace, after having seen the mother, Mrs Fenn asked the father, Gerry, what was happening to which he replied that a small girl had been abducted. When asked, she replied that she did not leave her apartment, just spoke to Gerry from her balcony, which had a view over the terrace of the floor below. She found it strange that Gerry when said that a girl had been abducted, he did not mention that it was his daughter and that he did not mention any other scenarios."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
*snipped*
During the day nothing unusual happened, until almost 22.30 when, being alone again, she heard the hysterical shouts from a female person, calling out ?we have let her down? which she repeated several times, quite upset. Mrs Fenn then saw that it was the mother of little Madeleine who was shouting furiously. Upon leaning over the terrace, after having seen the mother, Mrs Fenn asked the father, Gerry, what was happening to which he replied that a small girl had been abducted. When asked, she replied that she did not leave her apartment, just spoke to Gerry from her balcony, which had a view over the terrace of the floor below. She found it strange that Gerry when said that a girl had been abducted, he did not mention that it was his daughter and that he did not mention any other scenarios. At that moment she offered Gerry help, saying that he could use her phone to contact the authorities, to which he replied that this had already been done. It was just after 22.30.
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We know that the GNR officers did not arrive at 5A until well after 2300hrs. Is it reasonable to assume that Mrs Fenn hung around on her balcony for best part of an hour & witnessed Gerry asking for more officers to be deployed in the searches?
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What I find real confusing is reading Carole TRANMER statement. You get the feeling none of it is true, she doesn't know the name of her aunt's apartment or where it is. If it wasn't that Pamela says she was visited by Carole I was thinking we have the wrong person here.
But she talks of making a photo-fit of someone leaving the McCann's gate. Does anyone know which sketch was attributed to her?
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CT'Humm... he was blonde, with a lot of hair, very short, not like mine but a little more, humm... but not like a footballer, do you know what I mean' A style close to shaven. Very short, blonde, the head was very sculptured. The shape of the head was very sculptured, more oval shaped.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'And, humm... then I believe I saw him wearing a blue-grey T-shirt, it was not dark blue, more of a pallid colour and it was, humm... a type of blue with short sleeves, humm... but I did not see anything below, I did not see the trousers or shoes or anything else, only the top part and he would have, I would say'humm, when looking from above, he was not short, I would say he was about a 1'78, about medium height. He was not thing nor was he muscular. So he was of average stature. I would say he was European but not Portuguese. He was not dark and, he was not short, but I would say that he looked Scandinavian if you will, because he was very light and could have been British or Scandinavian. Even though I was looking upwards, he had big eyes, there is nothing else. He did not have tattoos, nothing like this, humm'a person of common appearance, it was his furtiveness that called my attention, humm, no, I can't'
DC1485'Could you give him an age'
CT'Yes, I believe so, I would say that he was between, oh he was not old, 30 to 35, I don't believe that he was older than this.
DC1485'And his aspect'
CT'It was clear, he was light-skinned, he had no freckles, he was not sunburned, he was not dark, nor bronzed from the sun, he was a light colour, not white, white but you know'humm..he was not one who was exposed to the sun.
DC1485'And when he walked, did he have any particular walk or limp'
CT'No, I never really noticed his gait as I only saw him leave the gate. He did not appear incapacitated, hum' he was merely ordinary looking, I did not really look at his walk.
DC1485'You told me he did not have tattoos; was he wearing any jewellery'
CT'No, I did not see any jewellery, no, no he did not have necklaces or rings and as far as I could tell, he did not have earrings.
DC1485'And his T-shirt, you spoke to me about his T-shirt, did it have an inscription'
CT'No, it was a common shirt, without inscriptions, it was light blue in colour, or grey, it could have been grey, mmm.
DC1485'And the T-shirt, did it have buttons or was it simply something that went up to the neck'
CT'No, it went up to the neck and had sleeves, short sleeves, but not straps, of this type, just short sleeves.
DC1485'Yes, and was it loose-fitting'
CT'No it was not snug, it was not loose, it was comfortable.
DC1485'Did it fit him loosely'
CT'It was big but not by much.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'It was simply common, the type of T-shirt one wears on Saturday.
DC1485'Yes, yes.
CT'With inscriptions or anything in general, mmm.
DC'And he was well-shaven'
CT'Yes, yes. " from Carole Tranmer statement.
Blond man with a lot of hair. Was there an e-fit like this? I haven't followed it all the way through but it sort of sounded a bit like Russell O'Brien to me. Could Russell have popped into the McCann residence to see if Gerry was home?
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Do you think CT could have actually seen the gate to 5a from PF's balcony?
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
*snipped*
During the day nothing unusual happened, until almost 22.30 when, being alone again, she heard the hysterical shouts from a female person, calling out ?we have let her down? which she repeated several times, quite upset. Mrs Fenn then saw that it was the mother of little Madeleine who was shouting furiously. Upon leaning over the terrace, after having seen the mother, Mrs Fenn asked the father, Gerry, what was happening to which he replied that a small girl had been abducted. When asked, she replied that she did not leave her apartment, just spoke to Gerry from her balcony, which had a view over the terrace of the floor below. She found it strange that Gerry when said that a girl had been abducted, he did not mention that it was his daughter and that he did not mention any other scenarios. At that moment she offered Gerry help, saying that he could use her phone to contact the authorities, to which he replied that this had already been done. It was just after 22.30.
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We know that the GNR officers did not arrive at 5A until well after 2300hrs. Is it reasonable to assume that Mrs Fenn hung around on her balcony for best part of an hour & witnessed Gerry asking for more officers to be deployed in the searches?
Actually, the first two GNR officers arrived at main reception at 11pm where Gerry and the resort manager were waiting for them.
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Do you think CT could have actually seen the gate to 5a from PF's balcony?
Without any trouble. The Fenn balcony looked straight down onto the steps leading up to 5a.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@37.0886395,-8.7306178,39a,35y,290.16h,22.14t/data=!3m1!1e3
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Without any trouble. The Fenn balcony looked straight down onto the steps leading up to 5a.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@37.0886395,-8.7306178,39a,35y,290.16h,22.14t/data=!3m1!1e3
I think you'd struggle to, from a seated position on the Fenn balcony, to easily see below the small roof.
How does this following description of the man leaving the gate equate with the gate at the side of 5a? Isn't CT really describing a man leaving the gate to 5B or 5C, both located on the alleyway & of which she'd have had an uninterrupted view?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm
"CT' Well, below, if you look right down, there is a street which leads to the supermarket which is at the end of a small' I call it an alley' a long passageway in front of all of the verandas that look towards the pool. There is a hedge which lines the small gates which gave access to the ground-floor apartments and it was through one of these small gates that I saw this person leave.
DC1485'Very good.
CT' And it was here from where he left. After this, he looked to this side and left quickly and disappeared in that direction. That brought him along the street leading up to the supermarket, or up until the top of the hill ahead. I do not know which direction he took (inaudible).
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I think you'd struggle to, from a seated position on the Fenn balcony, to easily see below the small roof.
How does this following description of the man leaving the gate equate with the gate at the side of 5a? Isn't CT really describing a man leaving the gate to 5B or 5C, both located on the alleyway & of which she'd have had an uninterrupted view?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm
"CT' Well, below, if you look right down, there is a street which leads to the supermarket which is at the end of a small' I call it an alley' a long passageway in front of all of the verandas that look towards the pool. There is a hedge which lines the small gates which gave access to the ground-floor apartments and it was through one of these small gates that I saw this person leave.
DC1485'Very good.
CT' And it was here from where he left. After this, he looked to this side and left quickly and disappeared in that direction. That brought him along the street leading up to the supermarket, or up until the top of the hill ahead. I do not know which direction he took (inaudible).
I think you have a good point for CT doesn't seem to know where she is in relation to the apartment as a whole, so how does she know that the man is leaving the McCann apartment.
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I think you have a good point for CT doesn't seem to know where she is in relation to the apartment as a whole, so how does she know that the man is leaving the McCann apartment.
The point is - CT saw which direction he went after leaving the gate but did not see whether he went up or down the "supermarket street". If the man had departed by the side gate of 5a she would have seen him go either up or down the hill (or cross the road) but she didn't.
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I think you have a good point for CT doesn't seem to know where she is in relation to the apartment as a whole, so how does she know that the man is leaving the McCann apartment.
Read it again, Rob. He wasn't, and she didn't say he was.
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Read it again, Rob. He wasn't, and she didn't say he was.
But my point is it sounded like Russell O'Brien so if it was Russell leaving his apartment or Matt's apartment that is no big issue. CT seems so poor with directions I wouldn't spend too much time on it.
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But my point is it sounded like Russell O'Brien so if it was Russell leaving his apartment or Matt's apartment that is no big issue. CT seems so poor with directions I wouldn't spend too much time on it.
I agree that's who she saw leaving their own apartment. Jane and Rachael played tennis and when they returned around 2.30 pm Matthew and Russell went to the beach to sail. The women and children followed later when the kids woke up from their naps.
The only question is why there was only one of them and why he was seen at or after 3.30 pm by CT.
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I agree that's who she saw leaving their own apartment. Jane and Rachael played tennis and when they returned around 2.30 pm Matthew and Russell went to the beach to sail. The women and children followed later when the kids woke up from their naps.
The only question is why there was only one of them and why he was seen at or after 3.30 pm by CT.
The other could have left via their front doors therefore out of sight from the Fenn's veranda.
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The other could have left via their front doors therefore out of sight from the Fenn's veranda.
Possible, but a bit weird.
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Possible, but a bit weird.
It is weird that they didn't leave together but the only way you can lock up these apartments is if someone leaves from the front door. They must lock the patio door from the inside and lock the front door as they leave (double lock it if you want).
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It is weird that they didn't leave together but the only way you can lock up these apartments is if someone leaves from the front door. They must lock the patio door from the inside and lock the front door as they leave (double lock it if you want).
Rachael and Jane were in the apartments so no need to lock up.
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Rachael and Jane were in the apartments so no need to lock up.
I really have not studied the situation and anything I say would be a stab in the dark.
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The incident happened on Thursday.
DC1485'Yes. You should continue and explain how everything happened.
CT'Yes, I will describe it; I will describe everything, everything that I can.
CT'We were all seated on the terrace, hummm'talking, and I was inclined to look below and this is when I saw someone leave the apartment of the first floor, closing the gate very gently as they were leaving, opening and closing the gate with much caution and in silence. It appeared to me very strange. They looked to one side and the other, shut the gate and walked very quickly downwards. It was at this point that I turned to my aunt and my husband and exclaimed 'That was really very strange',
Carole Tranmer doesn't define what apartment she is talking about "the apartment of the first floor". How do we know she is talking about the McCann's apartment or which other one?
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Where she describes the direction as downwards that does make it sound like the McCann gate rather than the other apartments that had their gates opening into the lane.
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I'm going through CT statement again and I notice this "DC1485'Okay Carole. I have read your statement from the 8th of May, 2007, more or less one week after you saw the individual. It would be easier if you read the statement yourself and tell me if there is anything you want to add.
Do you think it is odd that her original statement is not in the file?
Do you think it is odd that her E-fit of the person seen is not in the file?
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I'm going through CT statement again and I notice this "DC1485'Okay Carole. I have read your statement from the 8th of May, 2007, more or less one week after you saw the individual. It would be easier if you read the statement yourself and tell me if there is anything you want to add.
Do you think it is odd that her original statement is not in the file?
Do you think it is odd that her E-fit of the person seen is not in the file?
It probably all is in the files. Just not those we read on line.
Selective publication?
Yes, odd ....
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CT'Humm... he was blonde, with a lot of hair, very short, not like mine but a little more, humm... but not like a footballer, do you know what I mean' A style close to shaven. Very short, blonde, the head was very sculptured. The shape of the head was very sculptured, more oval shaped.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'And, humm... then I believe I saw him wearing a blue-grey T-shirt, it was not dark blue, more of a pallid colour and it was, humm... a type of blue with short sleeves, humm... but I did not see anything below, I did not see the trousers or shoes or anything else, only the top part and he would have, I would say'humm, when looking from above, he was not short, I would say he was about a 1'78, about medium height. He was not thing nor was he muscular. So he was of average stature. I would say he was European but not Portuguese. He was not dark and, he was not short, but I would say that he looked Scandinavian if you will, because he was very light and could have been British or Scandinavian. Even though I was looking upwards, he had big eyes, there is nothing else. He did not have tattoos, nothing like this, humm'a person of common appearance, it was his furtiveness that called my attention, humm, no, I can't'
DC1485'Could you give him an age'
CT'Yes, I believe so, I would say that he was between, oh he was not old, 30 to 35, I don't believe that he was older than this.
DC1485'And his aspect'
CT'It was clear, he was light-skinned, he had no freckles, he was not sunburned, he was not dark, nor bronzed from the sun, he was a light colour, not white, white but you know'humm..he was not one who was exposed to the sun.
DC1485'And when he walked, did he have any particular walk or limp'
CT'No, I never really noticed his gait as I only saw him leave the gate. He did not appear incapacitated, hum' he was merely ordinary looking, I did not really look at his walk.
DC1485'You told me he did not have tattoos; was he wearing any jewellery'
CT'No, I did not see any jewellery, no, no he did not have necklaces or rings and as far as I could tell, he did not have earrings.
DC1485'And his T-shirt, you spoke to me about his T-shirt, did it have an inscription'
CT'No, it was a common shirt, without inscriptions, it was light blue in colour, or grey, it could have been grey, mmm.
DC1485'And the T-shirt, did it have buttons or was it simply something that went up to the neck'
CT'No, it went up to the neck and had sleeves, short sleeves, but not straps, of this type, just short sleeves.
DC1485'Yes, and was it loose-fitting'
CT'No it was not snug, it was not loose, it was comfortable.
DC1485'Did it fit him loosely'
CT'It was big but not by much.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'It was simply common, the type of T-shirt one wears on Saturday.
DC1485'Yes, yes.
CT'With inscriptions or anything in general, mmm.
DC'And he was well-shaven'
CT'Yes, yes. " from Carole Tranmer statement.
Blond man with a lot of hair. Was there an e-fit like this? I haven't followed it all the way through but it sort of sounded a bit like Russell O'Brien to me. Could Russell have popped into the McCann residence to see if Gerry was home?
Nah, 1.78 meters = 5' 10"
Have you seen the height of Russell?
Is Russells hair blond or white, BTW?
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I find the detective asking the questions completely befuddled by the situation
"DC1485'This was on Sunday, right'
CT'No, this was on Thursday.
DC1485'This on Thursday, I understand.
CT'This all happened on Thursday.
DC1485'Yes. "
How could he think it was Sunday and moments later accept it was Thursday?
"CT'We left around 6:30. It was already dusk because at that time of the year, it gets dark quickly in Portugal. We drove to our hotel and arrived at 8:30, eight or 8:30.
DC1485'It was a two hour trip then'
CT'It was about that, mmm, yes, it was a considerable distance."
So the incident happened before 6:30 at least.
"there is a big open terrace'where we would usually go. It is completely open."
OK nothing blocking the view.
"DC1485'Very good. When you look outside, as you mentioned a while ago, when you spoke of the view at which you were turned when you enter the terrace, tell me, what do you see below that area'
CT' Well, below, if you look right down, there is a street which leads to the supermarket which is at the end of a small' I call it an alley' a long passageway in front of all of the verandas that look towards the pool. There is a hedge which lines the small gates which gave access to the ground-floor apartments and it was through one of these small gates that I saw this person leave. "
Still only described as one of those gates.
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Well it sounds more like the person left from Matt's gate. The first one along the lane.
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Have you tried to read Carole's statement, it seems such a confusion it isn't funny. She was looking down on to the man at the gate. I wonder how accurate anyone would be at estimating a man's height from that vantage point.
They weren't sure if it was May or April, whether they were on the 2nd floor or the 3rd, and whether the man walked this way or that, and even though she had previously drawn and identikit picture it wasn't the one attached to the file. Previous statement isn't in the file yet it seemed to be present at the rogatory interview. If there is any proof needed that the case was not being handled correctly this was it.
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One of the things I have learned from this case is that every media story should be read with a lorry-load of salt. There was a huge fuss in April 2008. A Spanish TV station, Telecinco, said the PJ had leaked the T9 statements and they had them. They broadcast details of what they contained. The McCanns were in Brussels at the time promoting the Amber Alert system.
Clarence had a phone call from a Spanish journalist who told him that he’d been given what appeared to be witness statements made by Gerry and me to the Portuguese police. The part of my statement in which he was interested was Madeleine’s comment to us on the morning of the day she disappeared: ‘Why didn’t you come when Sean and I cried last night?’ I don’t think I need to remind anyone how I have been tortured by this question since the moment Madeleine was taken from us. My reason for having shared it with the police was plain: it was potentially highly significant. [madeleine]
The UK press ran the story;
Madeleine McCann complained to mother Kate about being left crying alone
Mr Mitchell demanded an internal police inquiry in Portugal into how the leak occurred: "We would be very interested to know what the Portuguese justice minister would say about how this has emerged from the police files on the day that it has, in the way that it has.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/1584584/Madeleine-McCann-complained-to-mother-Kate-about-being-left-crying-alone.html
On this occasion the PJ retaliated;
"The PJ want to make it clear that is entirely false that the contents of this report included material from the the Tinquiry which is covered by (the law of) secrecy of justice,"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7347187.stm
Did the TV station have the McCann's statements from the PJ? I think not, because Kate's statement didn't say what she and the TV report said it did. Kate's statement said;
Madeleine asked the interviewee why she had not come to look in the bedroom when the twins were crying.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm
For those who like to suggest that the statements were heard or translated incorrectly, Kate said the same thing to the liaison officers from Leicester on 5th;
Madeleine's revelation about Wednesday night, when she said that she was left alone during the night. She told Kate and Gerry that she remembered the twins crying and that she wanted to know why neither her mother nor her father had gone to the room to see what was happening.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN_MARKLEY.htm
Kate revealed that Madeleine had spoken with her in the morning of her disappearance and said that she remembered the twins had cried during the night and that she wanted to know why neither her mother or father had appeared.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JIM_McGARVEY.htm
No, you're right. Both of Kate's statements mention the crying episode, but don't specify Sean. It's actually Gerry's 10 May one that does.
The day MADELEINE disappeared, Thursday, 3 May 2007, they all woke up at the same time between 07H30 and 08H00. While they were taking breakfast MADELEINE addressed the mother and asked her ?why didn't you come last night when S*** and I were crying??. That he thought this comment very strange given that MADELEINE had never had this kind of talk [had never spoken like this] and, the night before, they had maintained the same system of checking on the children, not having detected anything abnormal. When he questioned her about the comment, she left [withdrew herself] without any explanation.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
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No, you're right. Both of Kate's statements mention the crying episode, but don't specify Amelie. It's actually Gerry's 10 May one that does.
The day MADELEINE disappeared, Thursday, 3 May 2007, they all woke up at the same time between 07H30 and 08H00. While they were taking breakfast MADELEINE addressed the mother and asked her ?why didn't you come last night when S*** and I were crying??. That he thought this comment very strange given that MADELEINE had never had this kind of talk [had never spoken like this] and, the night before, they had maintained the same system of checking on the children, not having detected anything abnormal. When he questioned her about the comment, she left [withdrew herself] without any explanation.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
I suppose it could be that Madeleine actually said ''....when Sean and Amelie were crying'' - and they misheard that as Sean and Me were crying. Just a thought.
However IMO that is exactly the kind of discrepancy that SY would have no difficulty in clarifying by being able to speak directly to the McCanns and the FLO's about it.
AIMO
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(snip)
One of the things I have learned from this case is that every media story should be read with a lorry-load of salt. There was a huge fuss in April 2008. A Spanish TV station, Telecinco, said the PJ had leaked the T9 statements and they had them. They broadcast details of what they contained. The McCanns were in Brussels at the time promoting the Amber Alert system.
I agree about being sceptical about media reports, particularly in the tabloids. There was sometimes a detail that was accurate, or more often than not half-true and wildy distorted. The PT tabloid blitz on "chosen" extracts from Kate's diary, for example. The so-called DNA evidence...
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I suppose it could be that Madeleine actually said ''....when Sean and Amelie were crying'' - and they misheard that as Sean and Me were crying. Just a thought.
However IMO that is exactly the kind of discrepancy that SY would have no difficulty in clarifying by being able to speak directly to the McCanns and the FLO's about it.
AIMO
If they misheard it on 3rd why did Gerry come up with a new version on 10th? There's a big difference between 'the twins' 'Sean and Amelie' and 'Sean and I'.
The point is that Kate's statements didn't say what Telecinco (and Kate) said they did, therefore they didn't have the statement she gave to the PJ. Therefore the information they had came from elsewhere.
There was a huge fuss in April 2008. A Spanish TV station, Telecinco, said the PJ had leaked the T9 statements and they had them. They broadcast details of what they contained. The McCanns were in Brussels at the time promoting the Amber Alert system.
Clarence had a phone call from a Spanish journalist who told him that he’d been given what appeared to be witness statements made by Gerry and me to the Portuguese police. The part of my statement in which he was interested was Madeleine’s comment to us on the morning of the day she disappeared: ‘Why didn’t you come when Sean and I cried last night?’ I don’t think I need to remind anyone how I have been tortured by this question since the moment Madeleine was taken from us. My reason for having shared it with the police was plain: it was potentially highly significant. [madeleine]
The UK press ran the story;
Madeleine McCann complained to mother Kate about being left crying alone
Mr Mitchell demanded an internal police inquiry in Portugal into how the leak occurred: "We would be very interested to know what the Portuguese justice minister would say about how this has emerged from the police files on the day that it has, in the way that it has.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/1584584/Madeleine-McCann-complained-to-mother-Kate-about-being-left-crying-alone.html
On this occasion the PJ retaliated;
"The PJ want to make it clear that is entirely false that the contents of this report included material from the the Tinquiry which is covered by (the law of) secrecy of justice,"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7347187.stm
Did the TV station have the McCann's statements from the PJ? I think not, because Kate's statement didn't say what she and the TV report said it did. Kate's statement said;
Madeleine asked the interviewee why she had not come to look in the bedroom when the twins were crying.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm
For those who like to suggest that the statements were heard or translated incorrectly, Kate said the same thing to the liaison officers from Leicester on 5th;
Madeleine's revelation about Wednesday night, when she said that she was left alone during the night. She told Kate and Gerry that she remembered the twins crying and that she wanted to know why neither her mother nor her father had gone to the room to see what was happening.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN_MARKLEY.htm
Kate revealed that Madeleine had spoken with her in the morning of her disappearance and said that she remembered the twins had cried during the night and that she wanted to know why neither her mother or father had appeared.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JIM_McGARVEY.htm
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If they misheard it on 3rd why did Gerry come up with a new version on 10th? There's a big difference between 'the twins' 'Sean and Amelie' and 'Sean and I'.
The point is that Kate's statements didn't say what Telecinco (and Kate) said they did, therefore they didn't have the statement she gave to the PJ. Therefore the information they had came from elsewhere.
Gerry's statement?
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readers need to sort the wheat from the chaffe in newspaper reports...in the latest from Clarence re the ECHR.....hes quoted as saying the claim was submitted in July and aknowledged in August which is detail that I dont think would have been included had he had not actually made the quote
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If they misheard it on 3rd why did Gerry come up with a new version on 10th? There's a big difference between 'the twins' 'Sean and Amelie' and 'Sean and I'.
The point is that Kate's statements didn't say what Telecinco (and Kate) said they did, therefore they didn't have the statement she gave to the PJ. Therefore the information they had came from elsewhere.
you give the impression taht if you can actually come up with enough discrepancies it actually means something...it doesnt imo. The fact is that this is the first case where the public have been able to read so many statements. is it not a fact that Murat's statement is full of inconsistencies. it is almost certainly quite normal....particuarly the way the stateemnts were taken aand translated. Kate says in her book she wished to correct some things in her earlier statements that had been taken down wrongly but the interpreter seemed very offended
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you give the impression taht if you can actually come up with enough discrepancies it actually means something...it doesnt imo. The fact is that this is the first case where the public have been able to read so many statements. is it not a fact that Murat's statement is full of inconsistencies. it is almost certainly quite normal....particuarly the way the stateemnts were taken aand translated. Kate says in her book she wished to correct some things in her earlier statements that had been taken down wrongly but the interpreter seemed very offended
She only gave one statement before the September interviews and she had ample opportunity to correct any misunderstandings before she signed it. Further if she did have doubts about the interpreter she had lawyers available who could have raised her concerns with the PJ. She didn't which speaks volumes.
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She only gave one statement before the September interviews and she had ample opportunity to correct any misunderstandings before she signed it. Further if she did have doubts about the interpreter she had lawyers available who could have raised her concerns with the PJ. She didn't which speaks volumes.
She could not correct any errors before she signed it because it was written in portuguese..The whole taking of stateemnts was a complete farce in most poeples opinion...an original transcript in English should have been available for obvious reasons
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She only gave one statement before the September interviews and she had ample opportunity to correct any misunderstandings before she signed it. Further if she did have doubts about the interpreter she had lawyers available who could have raised her concerns with the PJ. She didn't which speaks volumes.
From her 6 Sept statement (pre-arguida)
Regarding the fact that Madeleine on the next morning, Thursday, during breakfast said to both of them that she had been crying and that nobody had come to her room, she presumes that this crying must have been before she and Gerry returned to the apartment. When she asked Madeleine about this however, the child gave no importance to the matter.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm
From the perspective of providing potentially significant information (quite possibly about a doubt as to whether or not someone had been in the flat in the previous evening), isn't the fact that Madeleine had mentioned a crying incident the most important point, as opposed to which of the twins, or both of them, Madeleine mentioned as having cried?
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you give the impression taht if you can actually come up with enough discrepancies it actually means something...it doesnt imo. The fact is that this is the first case where the public have been able to read so many statements. is it not a fact that Murat's statement is full of inconsistencies. it is almost certainly quite normal....particuarly the way the stateemnts were taken aand translated. Kate says in her book she wished to correct some things in her earlier statements that had been taken down wrongly but the interpreter seemed very offended
Telecinco said they had Kate's police statement but they didn't. If they had it they would have read it out as it appears in the files. They read out something else. Therefore they did not have Kate's police statement. Therefore the PJ didn't leak.
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From her 6 Sept statement (pre-arguida)
Regarding the fact that Madeleine on the next morning, Thursday, during breakfast said to both of them that she had been crying and that nobody had come to her room, she presumes that this crying must have been before she and Gerry returned to the apartment. When she asked Madeleine about this however, the child gave no importance to the matter.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm
From the perspective of providing potentially significant information (quite possibly about a doubt as to whether or not someone had been in the flat in the previous evening), isn't the fact that Madeleine had mentioned a crying incident the most important point, as opposed to which of the twins, or both of them, Madeleine mentioned as having cried?
The most important issue was the fact that something had disturbed the children the previous evening not essentially who was crying. The 'why' being more important than the 'who', in my opinion.
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From her 6 Sept statement (pre-arguida)
Regarding the fact that Madeleine on the next morning, Thursday, during breakfast said to both of them that she had been crying and that nobody had come to her room, she presumes that this crying must have been before she and Gerry returned to the apartment. When she asked Madeleine about this however, the child gave no importance to the matter.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm
From the perspective of providing potentially significant information (quite possibly about a doubt as to whether or not someone had been in the flat in the previous evening), isn't the fact that Madeleine had mentioned a crying incident the most important point, as opposed to which of the twins, or both of them, Madeleine mentioned as having cried?
So was what the journalist read out taken from any of Kate's statements? No, it was not.
Crime reporter Nacho Abad, read out in Spanish an excerpt of the statement he said Kate had
given Portuguese police.
He said: “While we were having breakfast, Maddie said, ’Mummy, why didn’t you come when
we were crying last night?’
“Gerry and I spoke for a couple of minutes and agreed to keep a closer watch over the
children.”
https://shakedowntitle.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/the-sun-article-april-10-2008.pdf
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Telecinco said they had Kate's police statement but they didn't. If they had it they would have read it out as it appears in the files. They read out something else. Therefore they did not have Kate's police statement. Therefore the PJ didn't leak.
I can't find what Telecinco actually said. I agree with you that Kate's statements don't specify Sean. They may have had both, and Gerry's statement does mention Sean.
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She could not correct any errors before she signed it because it was written in portuguese..The whole taking of stateemnts was a complete farce in most poeples opinion...an original transcript in English should have been available for obvious reasons
Are you really trying to tell us that the interpreter wouldn't have read it back to her before she signed it ? Really?
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So was what the journalist read out taken from any of Kate's statements? No, it was not.
Crime reporter Nacho Abad, read out in Spanish an excerpt of the statement he said Kate had
given Portuguese police.
He said: “While we were having breakfast, Maddie said, ’Mummy, why didn’t you come when
we were crying last night?’
“Gerry and I spoke for a couple of minutes and agreed to keep a closer watch over the
children.”
https://shakedowntitle.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/the-sun-article-april-10-2008.pdf
That is not how the reported statements appear on paper. Could it have been an unofficially audio-recorded interview that got leaked? Or did Nacho Abad embroider?
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From her 6 Sept statement (pre-arguida)
Regarding the fact that Madeleine on the next morning, Thursday, during breakfast said to both of them that she had been crying and that nobody had come to her room, she presumes that this crying must have been before she and Gerry returned to the apartment. When she asked Madeleine about this however, the child gave no importance to the matter.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm
From the perspective of providing potentially significant information (quite possibly about a doubt as to whether or not someone had been in the flat in the previous evening), isn't the fact that Madeleine had mentioned a crying incident the most important point, as opposed to which of the twins, or both of them, Madeleine mentioned as having cried?
IMO the most significant aspect of Madeleine's treaty to her parents is that they didn't use it as a wake up call but left their children alone, again, that night. There is absolutely no reason to assume that Madeleine didn't cry solely because she woke up and found herself alone in a strange apartment. All this ' an intruder must have woken her' nonsensense is just that, nonsense. If a child wakes up scared and alone it will cry and, in all likelihood, wake up her siblings sleeping in the same room.
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IMO the most significant aspect of Madeleine's treaty to her parents is that they didn't use it as a wake up call but left their children alone, again, that night. There is absolutely no reason to assume that Madeleine didn't cry solely because she woke up and found herself alone in a strange apartment. All this ' an intruder must have woken her' nonsensense is just that, nonsense. If a child wakes up scared and alone it will cry and, in all likelihood, wake up her siblings sleeping in the same room.
That's possible, but it could also have been a vague dream from when Madeleine crawled into the parental bed when Amelie had woken up on another occasion earlier in the week. Who hasn't woken up to young children waking up and crying? Most of the time it's insignificant, but it could take on a potential significance when one child has disappeared.
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That is not how the reported statements appear on paper. Could it have been an unofficially audio-recorded interview that got leaked? Or did Nacho Abad embroider?
You seem reluctant to accept the simplest explanation, which is that the journalist was not in possession of Kate McCann's police statement. He may have thought he was, but he wasn't.
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I have always found this particular story compelling for several reasons not least the corroboration which Kate McCann voluntarily brought to Mrs Fenns own recollection the previous evening. Is it really all a terrible coincidence that Madeleine disappeared the very next night?
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The most important issue was the fact that something had disturbed the children the previous evening not essentially who was crying. The 'why' being more important than the 'who', in my opinion.
LOL Rachael was next door to the McCann children on WED night and never heard a sound and those walls were thin. There's no evidence to back up those claims. Fenn heard the crying on TUE night.
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Are you really trying to tell us that the interpreter wouldn't have read it back to her before she signed it ? Really?
I'm sure the interpreter did read something back....but we don't know how accurate that was....we have no idea at all
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I have always found this particular story compelling for several reasons not least the corroboration which Kate McCann voluntarily brought to Mrs Fenns own recollection the previous evening. Is it really all a terrible coincidence that Madeleine disappeared the very next night?
Mrs Fenn heard a child crying on Tues night the 1st May. The very next night (Wednesday the 2nd May) Rachel stayed in next door to 5a and heard nothing. Madeleine spoke to her parents on the morning of Thursday 3rd May and disappeared that night.
AFAIK it is only Amaral who claims in his book that Madeleine spoke to her parents on the 2nd May. He was completely wrong, but no doubt many people believe as you do as a result of his 'error'.
AIMHO
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I have always found this particular story compelling for several reasons not least the corroboration which Kate McCann voluntarily brought to Mrs Fenns own recollection the previous evening. Is it really all a terrible coincidence that Madeleine disappeared the very next night?
Coming at it from another direction it forms part of Kate's explanation for her unresponsive twins. The unresponsive twins are an independently verified fact. The reported conversation with Madeleine isn't.
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Coming at it from another direction it forms part of Kate's explanation for her unresponsive twins. The unresponsive twins are an independently verified fact. The reported conversation with Madeleine isn't.
I think the use of the word "unresponsive" is a bit OTT. The twins remained sleeping throughout. But there is no one that judged them to be unresponsive.
"Part of Kate's explanation for her unresponsive twins" was there one? Can you remind us of Kate's explanation please?
"Medically speaking, when a person is called unresponsive, it means they're at least unconscious, and possibly dead or dying." https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/unresponsive
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Coming at it from another direction it forms part of Kate's explanation for her unresponsive twins. The unresponsive twins are an independently verified fact. The reported conversation with Madeleine isn't.
there is no verification taht the twins were unresponsive....more opinion as fact...someone who is sedated is not unresponsive...thats fact not opinion
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there is no verification taht the twins were unresponsive....more opinion as fact...someone who is sedated is not unresponsive...thats fact not opinion
Sedation could lead to an unresponsive state, e.g. overdosed. There are several witnesses saying the twins remained asleep, but asleep and unresponsive are different states IMO. Asleep and unresponsive are technically not the same. G-unit used the wrong term IMO.
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Kate says at one point that she didn't switch on the light when trying to see Madeleine in her bed. The reason was in case the kids woke up. The twins didn't wake when the light was switched on, when the shutters were lowered and raised, when the room was searched or when taken outside in the cold. I would describe that as failing to respond to stimuli that should have woken them. The medical definition of unresponsive was never put to the test as no-one tried to elicit a response from them.
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Kate says at one point that she didn't switch on the light when trying to see Madeleine in her bed. The reason was in case the kids woke up. The twins didn't wake when the light was switched on, when the shutters were lowered and raised, when the room was searched or when taken outside in the cold. I would describe that as failing to respond to stimuli that should have woken them. The medical definition of unresponsive was never put to the test as no-one tried to elicit a response from them.
Weren't Kate and Fiona both involved with anaesthesiology? So in my day of anaesthesiology we would note when there was a response or when there was too little response, so I would imagine they had trained to look for responses that may have gone unnoticed by others. I'm sure Kate and Fiona would have denied this "the medical definition of unresponsive was never put to the test as no-one tried to elicit a response from them". Kate is mentioned checking the twins, in other words she was looking for subtle responses that did not involve waking them up. Kids have often astounded me when they fall asleep and continue to sleep surrounded by noise. You can remain asleep even with the light on.
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Expresso seems to have translated Nacho's extracts. Seems he got hold of Fiona's rog re the Mummy bit.
I haven't looked for the second bit, which translates roughly as "Gerry and I talked a few minutes and decided to watch the kids better at night". It could be papraphrased from Jane's rog.
Na semana passada, a Telecinco avançou com a notícia de que Madeleine teria chorado na véspera do rapto, e confrontado a mãe, Kate McCann, pelo facto de não ter vindo ao seu encontro: "Mamã, porque não vieste quando estávamos a chorar ontem à noite?", terá dito Madeleine, episódio que Kate terá alegadamente relatado à polícia e que constará nos inquéritos. No mesmo depoimento, estará escrito que "Gerry e eu falámos alguns minutos e decidimos vigiar melhor as crianças à noite", mas a Polícia Judiciária insiste em negar a fuga de informação.
http://expresso.sapo.pt/dossies/dossiest_actualidade/dos_madeleine_mccan/jornalista-espanhol-contraria-declaracoes-da-pj-no-caso-maddie=f294306
Reply
'I thought that was Wednesday night. You see, I mean, I only knew about that because on Thursday night Kate had said, erm, as we were chatting at the table 'Oh', you know, 'I wonder', you know, 'what', 'what she cried about' or, you know, she'd asked Madeleine, erm, because I think Madeleine had said something 'Where were you mummy, me and Sean cried' and, you know, 'where were you' and that had obviously worried Kate and she couldn't get anything more out of Madeleine, Madeleine had sort of moved on and, you know, didn't say anything more than that and wouldn't say, you know, whether she'd heard anything or been woken up or whether she had just woken up herself'
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
And, as I say, I can’t remember where in the meal she said this, but she did sort of say, oh I thought she said I thought that was a bit odd when, when Kate said, you know, Madeleine obviously she did say ‘Where were you when’, you know, I think she said ‘When Sean and I woke up’, I can’t remember whether it was when two of them woke up. So I think Kate was more worried that night, you know, whether leaving them was the, the right thing, or so to speak, so. So you were saying then about the frequency of the checks. I was just wondering if that was another reason, you know, why maybe the checks were more often”.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm
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Expresso seems to have translated Nacho's extracts. Seems he got hold of Fiona's rog re the Mummy bit.
I haven't looked for the second bit, which translates roughly as "Gerry and I talked a few minutes and decided to watch the kids better at night". It could be papraphrased from Jane's rog.
Na semana passada, a Telecinco avançou com a notícia de que Madeleine teria chorado na véspera do rapto, e confrontado a mãe, Kate McCann, pelo facto de não ter vindo ao seu encontro: "Mamã, porque não vieste quando estávamos a chorar ontem à noite?", terá dito Madeleine, episódio que Kate terá alegadamente relatado à polícia e que constará nos inquéritos. No mesmo depoimento, estará escrito que "Gerry e eu falámos alguns minutos e decidimos vigiar melhor as crianças à noite", mas a Polícia Judiciária insiste em negar a fuga de informação.
http://expresso.sapo.pt/dossies/dossiest_actualidade/dos_madeleine_mccan/jornalista-espanhol-contraria-declaracoes-da-pj-no-caso-maddie=f294306
Reply
'I thought that was Wednesday night. You see, I mean, I only knew about that because on Thursday night Kate had said, erm, as we were chatting at the table 'Oh', you know, 'I wonder', you know, 'what', 'what she cried about' or, you know, she'd asked Madeleine, erm, because I think Madeleine had said something 'Where were you mummy, me and Sean cried' and, you know, 'where were you' and that had obviously worried Kate and she couldn't get anything more out of Madeleine, Madeleine had sort of moved on and, you know, didn't say anything more than that and wouldn't say, you know, whether she'd heard anything or been woken up or whether she had just woken up herself'
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
And, as I say, I can’t remember where in the meal she said this, but she did sort of say, oh I thought she said I thought that was a bit odd when, when Kate said, you know, Madeleine obviously she did say ‘Where were you when’, you know, I think she said ‘When Sean and I woke up’, I can’t remember whether it was when two of them woke up. So I think Kate was more worried that night, you know, whether leaving them was the, the right thing, or so to speak, so. So you were saying then about the frequency of the checks. I was just wondering if that was another reason, you know, why maybe the checks were more often”.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm
I think you need to be aware of the dates which make it impossible for Telecinco to have hold of any rog interviews (not from the PJ, anyway);
Jane Tanner's rog interview was 8th May 2008, Fiona Payne's was 10th May.
The interview recordings were sent to Portugal on 16th May 2008
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FRANCES_KENNAH.htm
the Portuguese translations of these rog interviews were delivered to Rebelo on 4th June 2008.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RESPONSE-ROGATORY.htm
The Telecinco programme was on 10th May 2008.
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I think you need to be aware of the dates which make it impossible for Telecinco to have hold of any rog interviews (not from the PJ, anyway);
Jane Tanner's rog interview was 8th May 2008, Fiona Payne's was 10th May.
The interview recordings were sent to Portugal on 16th May 2008
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FRANCES_KENNAH.htm
the Portuguese translations of these rog interviews were delivered to Rebelo on 4th June 2008.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RESPONSE-ROGATORY.htm
The Telecinco programme was on 10th May 2008.
I think you mean April, don't you?
Fiona PAYNE
Number of Pages 55
Place of Interview:
Force Headquarters Enderby
Signature of Interviewing
Date of Interview:10/04/08
Officer producing exhibit
Jane Tanner - Record Of Tape Recorded Interview I
L E I C E S T E R S H I R E C O N S T A B U L A R Y
Form MG15(T)
RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW Police Exhibit No
Person Interviewed: Jane TANNER Number of Pages 12
Place of Interview: Force Headquarters, Enderby Signature of Interviewing
Date of Interview: 08.04.08 Officer producing exhibit
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I'm aware that the whole lot of rogs were officially sent as a batch at a later date.
However, that doesn't mean that the PJ couldn't have been given a copy of the CDs (or have made one themselves) of those interviewed while they were present. Fiona's seems a little tight, leakwise, but Jane's isn't.
Interviews of the Tapas Seven are due to start on Tuesday and the friends will be asked a series of questions drawn up by the Portuguese police team.
By Vanessa Allen for the Daily Mail and David Wilkes for the Daily Mail and Daily Mail Reporter
Updated: 10:09 GMT, 7 April 2008
(...)
The three-strong team from Portugal is expected to return to the Algarve on Friday but Leicestershire officers will continue to interview other witnesses, including the couple's spokesman Mr Mitchell.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1008821/Portuguese-detectives-set-quiz-Tapas-Seven-London-Madeleine-s-disappearance.html#ixzz52vVddVWi
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
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I'm aware that the whole lot of rogs were officially sent as a batch at a later date.
However, that doesn't mean that the PJ couldn't have been given a copy of the CDs (or have made one themselves) of those interviewed while they were present. Fiona's seems a little tight, leakwise, but Jane's isn't.
Interviews of the Tapas Seven are due to start on Tuesday and the friends will be asked a series of questions drawn up by the Portuguese police team.
By Vanessa Allen for the Daily Mail and David Wilkes for the Daily Mail and Daily Mail Reporter
Updated: 10:09 GMT, 7 April 2008
(...)
The three-strong team from Portugal is expected to return to the Algarve on Friday but Leicestershire officers will continue to interview other witnesses, including the couple's spokesman Mr Mitchell.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1008821/Portuguese-detectives-set-quiz-Tapas-Seven-London-Madeleine-s-disappearance.html#ixzz52vVddVWi
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Sorry, it was April of course. I don't know what happened there. Jane was interviewed on 8th and Fiona on 10th. The Telecinco broadcast was on 10th. The Portuguese officers were still in Rngland then, the first to return to Portugal was Rebelo on 11th. So very unlikely that Telecinco had any rog interviews.
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Sorry, it was April of course. I don't know what happened there. Jane was interviewed on 8th and Fiona on 10th. The Telecinco broadcast was on 10th. The Portuguese officers were still in Rngland then, the first to return to Portugal was Rebelo on 11th. So very unlikely that Telecinco had any rog interviews.
They wouldn't have had any transcripts, but they could have had a copy of the CDs. If that's the case, it wouldn't take much to upload it to a file-sharing site (if any were around in those days), or for someone to type out some of the "juicy" bits and pass it along by e-mail.
I very much doubt that LP leaked - to find again, but they even held an internal inquiry at some point, although I think (not certain) that that was prior to the rogs.
I also very much doubt that Rebelo leaked, either. Apart from the crying incident, I don't recall any other leaks under him, or at least none that couldn't have been leaked before he took over.
I also very much doubt that Kate and Gerry (or anyone associated with them) would have planted it to have a moan at the PJ, just when they were trying to draw media attention to Brussels.
In the Expresso article I linked to earlier, Nacho had apparently said that he had documents (plural) and that he would soon be revealing more. As far as I know, that didn't materialise - my guess would be that Rebelo put his foot down.
I'm now tending to think that Jane's is the most likely source for the "mummy" statement, due to the date), but I still haven't found a source for the "Gerry and I talked about it for a few minutes" one.
An alternative is that the source is Kate after all, recorded in an "informal" interview prior to arguida time and kept to leak on a rainy day.
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Whichever way it's spun, I'm sure that Telecinco didn't have Kate McCann's police statement. She NEVER said what they said she said;
"Whilst having breakfast Maddie said," Mum, why didn't you come yesterday when we were crying at night? (...) Gerry and I talked a couple of minutes and decided to monitor the children more at night. "
http://3as.madeleinemccann.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8689&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15
So who gave them this information? There's enough truth in it to be sure that it came from someone close to the case.
Wh gained from the Telecinco broadcast? Not the PJ, because they were criticised once again. Although the McCanns complained bitterly, it publicised their visit to Brussels, and added to the smearing of the PJ.
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Whichever way it's spun, I'm sure that Telecinco didn't have Kate McCann's police statement. She NEVER said what they said she said;
"Whilst having breakfast Maddie said," Mum, why didn't you come yesterday when we were crying at night? (...) Gerry and I talked a couple of minutes and decided to monitor the children more at night. "
http://3as.madeleinemccann.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8689&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15
So who gave them this information? There's enough truth in it to be sure that it came from someone close to the case.
Wh gained from the Telecinco broadcast? Not the PJ, because they were criticised once again. Although the McCanns complained bitterly, it publicised their visit to Brussels, and added to the smearing of the PJ.
Lots of money had been flying around over any juicy leaks (cf the McCann / media documentary).
I've considered the possibility of a planted story, but that just seems so unlikely to me - particularly anything that would set the media ablaze with such a negative story, fuelling the perception of uncaring parents.
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Please remember when voicing an opinion to say so. Thank you.
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The only incident in the files was a previous night when Madeleine came in to their room while they were in bed, because Amelie had woken up.
There's no way of knowing whether Madeleine had had a dream or not when she said that Sean had been crying.
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The only incident in the files was a previous night when Madeleine came in to their room while they were in bed, because Amelie had woken up.
There's no way of knowing whether Madeleine had had a dream or not when she said that Sean had been crying.
If there had been a 'previous night' surely the McCanns would have assumed that was what Madeleine was talking about straight away ? Why would they even looked for another scenario ?
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If there had been a 'previous night' surely the McCanns would have assumed that was what Madeleine was talking about straight away ? Why would they even looked for another scenario ?
They probably would have thought that that was what she meant... but then she disappeared, so I suppose it would be logical to think of any normally mundane detail that could be potentially significant.
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If Kate told the story to her friends on 3rd as they reported in their rog interviews she should have told them that the twins had cried because that's what she told the PJ on 4th and the FLO's on 5th. I find it strange that you would tell your friends one story and the police another.
on the morning of Thursday May 3rd, Madeleine asked the interviewee why she had not come to look in the bedroom when the twins were crying.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm
on the morning of the 3rd May, when Madeleine asked the witness the reason why they had not gone to her room when the twins were crying.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm
they wanted the PJ to be aware of was Madeleine's revelation about Wednesday night, when she said that she was left alone during the night. She told Kate and Gerry that she remembered the twins crying and that she wanted to know why neither her mother nor her father had gone to the room to see what was happening.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN_MARKLEY.htm
While they were taking breakfast MADELEINE addressed the mother and asked her ?why didn't you come last night when S*** and I were crying??.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
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If Kate told the story to her friends on 3rd as they reported in their rog interviews she should have told them that the twins had cried because that's what she told the PJ on 4th and the FLO's on 5th. I find it strange that you would tell your friends one story and the police another.
on the morning of Thursday May 3rd, Madeleine asked the interviewee why she had not come to look in the bedroom when the twins were crying.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm
on the morning of the 3rd May, when Madeleine asked the witness the reason why they had not gone to her room when the twins were crying.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm
they wanted the PJ to be aware of was Madeleine's revelation about Wednesday night, when she said that she was left alone during the night. She told Kate and Gerry that she remembered the twins crying and that she wanted to know why neither her mother nor her father had gone to the room to see what was happening.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN_MARKLEY.htm
While they were taking breakfast MADELEINE addressed the mother and asked her ?why didn't you come last night when S*** and I were crying??.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
One potential explanation is that the translator got it wrong. It was the same initial one I suspect got muddled over the key issue.
Re the FLOs, it's not clear whether that bit of their statement came from their own notes of conversations with Kate, or whether they were going off a copy of the 4 May police statement, which stated "twins".
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They probably would have thought that that was what she meant... but then she disappeared, so I suppose it would be logical to think of any normally mundane detail that could be potentially significant.
They had an explanation for the comment. Why search for another ?
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They had an explanation for the comment. Why search for another ?
Didn't they wonder if someone could have got in the flat on the Wednesday evening in between checks?
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One potential explanation is that the translator got it wrong. It was the same initial one I suspect got muddled over the key issue.
Re the FLOs, it's not clear whether that bit of their statement came from their own notes of conversations with Kate, or whether they were going off a copy of the 4 May police statement, which stated "twins".
The interpreter got it wrong, not the McCanns? Well naturally someone else is always to blame, aren't they?
Why on earth would the FLO's have a copy of the McCann's statements in April 2008? They are reporting a conversation they had with the McCanns. Inspector McGarvey;
I would like to mention that at approximately 20.00 on the 5th May, I arrived at the McCann apartment with other family communications officers. We were asked several times during this meeting about questions that Gerald and Kate would like to have followed up and responded to by the PJ.
I remember that during the meetings, Kate revealed that Madeleine had spoken with her in the morning of her disappearance and said that she remembered the twins had cried during the night and that she wanted to know why neither her mother or father had appeared. Kate asked herself whether this fact could have any relation with Madeleine’s disappearance.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JIM_McGARVEY.htm
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The interpreter got it wrong, not the McCanns? Well naturally someone else is always to blame, aren't they?
Why on earth would the FLO's have a copy of the McCann's statements in April 2008? They are reporting a conversation they had with the McCanns. Inspector McGarvey;
I would like to mention that at approximately 20.00 on the 5th May, I arrived at the McCann apartment with other family communications officers. We were asked several times during this meeting about questions that Gerald and Kate would like to have followed up and responded to by the PJ.
I remember that during the meetings, Kate revealed that Madeleine had spoken with her in the morning of her disappearance and said that she remembered the twins had cried during the night and that she wanted to know why neither her mother or father had appeared. Kate asked herself whether this fact could have any relation with Madeleine’s disappearance.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JIM_McGARVEY.htm
He "remembers" - ok, maybe he did. Or he remembers something about crying and checked the statement, if he'd been given a copy (which isn't certain).
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He "remembers" - ok, maybe he did. Or he remembers something about crying and checked the statement, if he'd been given a copy (which isn't certain).
It would seem so unlikely for Kate to mention this and want the FLO to follow this up if it wasn't true, to extent regardless of who woke up. If Kate was guilty would she have asked for this? I can't see the reasons myself.
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For police to look elsewhere and not at them obviously.
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For police to look elsewhere and not at them obviously.
I struggle to read that into it.
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The McCanns thought it was strange that their children were crying. They couldn't remember them crying so it must have happened when we were out at dinner so was somebody else there? Being an unlocked apartment - Get it?
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The McCanns thought it was strange that their children were crying. They couldn't remember them crying so it must have happened when we were out at dinner so was somebody else there? Being an unlocked apartment - Get it?
As in the following possible thought: "Why didn't you come rather than that stranger who came and put us to bed"
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He "remembers" - ok, maybe he did. Or he remembers something about crying and checked the statement, if he'd been given a copy (which isn't certain).
It was a PJ investigation. The British police had no jurisdiction. There's no reason whatsoever for the PJ to give the British police copies of the McCann's statements.
The British FLO's weren't asked what the McCanns said to them; Stuart Prior had made sure of that by changing the questions the PJ wanted them to be asked. Despite that two of them managed to get this information included.
It has been useful as it demonstrates that the interpreter got the correct wording in the McCann's statements. They said 'twins' not 'Sean and I' or 'we' when they repeated what Madeleine said.
It also demonstrates that Telecinco weren't quoting from Kate McCann's police statement in their 'scoop' broadcast on 10th April 2008. As does the assertion that she and Gerry decided to keep a closer watch on 3rd, because she never ever said that in her statements or elsewhere.
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It was a PJ investigation. The British police had no jurisdiction. There's no reason whatsoever for the PJ to give the British police copies of the McCann's statements.
The British FLO's weren't asked what the McCanns said to them; Stuart Prior had made sure of that by changing the questions the PJ wanted them to be asked. Despite that two of them managed to get this information included.
It has been useful as it demonstrates that the interpreter got the correct wording in the McCann's statements. They said 'twins' not 'Sean and I' or 'we' when they repeated what Madeleine said.
It also demonstrates that Telecinco weren't quoting from Kate McCann's police statement in their 'scoop' broadcast on 10th April 2008. As does the assertion that she and Gerry decided to keep a closer watch on 3rd, because she never ever said that in her statements or elsewhere.
Telecino journalists didn't have to have sight of official statements; all they had to do was trust the source and then release whatever.
In my opinion there were quite a few inaccurate press releases surrounding Madeleine's case, so what would one more matter?
However this is a particularly malevolent one in my opinion and one only has to ask 'cui bono?' to get to the root of it.
It brought Rebelo home from Britain to plug the leak. It embarrassed Kate and Gerry as they started a campaign to benefit all future missing children.
So someone must have been well satisfied with "RESULT!!!" although none of these. Surprised you continue in denial on that.
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Telecino journalists didn't have to have sight of official statements; all they had to do was trust the source and then release whatever.
In my opinion there were quite a few inaccurate press releases surrounding Madeleine's case, so what would one more matter?
However this is a particularly malevolent one in my opinion and one only has to ask 'cui bono?' to get to the root of it.
It brought Rebelo home from Britain to plug the leak. It embarrassed Kate and Gerry as they started a campaign to benefit all future missing children.
So someone must have been well satisfied with "RESULT!!!" although none of these. Surprised you continue in denial on that.
Telecinco said it had obtained leaked copies of the couple's statements to Portuguese police
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/spanish-tv-station-claims-it-obtained-302312
It's clear that they did not have copies of those statements, no matter what their source told them.
Rebelo wasn't called back to 'plug a leak' AFAIK. He was, no doubt, able to show that the statements quoted by Telecinco bore no resemblance to the statements made by the McCanns. Hence the unprecedented denial by the PJ;
"The PJ want to make it clear that is entirely false that the contents of this report included material from the inquiry which is covered by (the law of) secrecy of justice,"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7347187.stm
I don't think there was any benefit here for the PJ. Everyone already knew the McCanns had left their children alone every evening, so the revelation that they were supposed to have cried didn't add much.
Rather than embarrassing the McCanns it gave them the chance to publicise their visit to Brussels and denigrate the PJ (again) at the same time imo.
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Telecinco said it had obtained leaked copies of the couple's statements to Portuguese police
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/spanish-tv-station-claims-it-obtained-302312
It's clear that they did not have copies of those statements, no matter what their source told them.
Rebelo wasn't called back to 'plug a leak' AFAIK. He was, no doubt, able to show that the statements quoted by Telecinco bore no resemblance to the statements made by the McCanns. Hence the unprecedented denial by the PJ;
"The PJ want to make it clear that is entirely false that the contents of this report included material from the inquiry which is covered by (the law of) secrecy of justice,"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7347187.stm
I don't think there was any benefit here for the PJ. Everyone already knew the McCanns had left their children alone every evening, so the revelation that they were supposed to have cried didn't add much.
Rather than embarrassing the McCanns it gave them the chance to publicise their visit to Brussels and denigrate the PJ (again) at the same time imo.
You mean there was no one with a vested interest in hitting the Rebelo investigation and Kate and Gerry where it would hurt, with only one highly damaging leak of Madeleine's accurate sentence direct from police sources?
Three with one stone! I think it was a master stroke!
On the other hand ... there is always the possibility the Telecino journalist was psychic ... 8(0(*
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You mean there was no one with a vested interest in hitting the Rebelo investigation and Kate and Gerry where it would hurt, with only one highly damaging leak of Madeleine's accurate sentence direct from police sources?
Three with one stone! I think it was a master stroke!
On the other hand ... there is always the possibility the Telecino journalist was psychic ... 8(0(*
Madeleine's inaccurate sentence you mean. Along with the inaccurate sentences of the McCanns. The Telecinco journalist was sold a pup.....perhaps he was listening to a psychic; they do seem to be attracted to this case along with some other people with out of the ordinary ideas.
Rebelo knew full well that Telecinco didn't have the statements and said so. The McCanns chose to suggest the inaccurate report was true and used it as a stick to beat the PJ with (again).
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Madeleine's inaccurate sentence you mean. Along with the inaccurate sentences of the McCanns. The Telecinco journalist was sold a pup.....perhaps he was listening to a psychic; they do seem to be attracted to this case along with some other people with out of the ordinary ideas.
Rebelo knew full well that Telecinco didn't have the statements and said so. The McCanns chose to suggest the inaccurate report was true and used it as a stick to beat the PJ with (again).
have we given up with the insistence of...IMO...I do hope so when its patently obvious
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I wonder why the McCanns fund it so strange that Madeleine mentioned on 3rd that the twins had cried on Wednesday evening? On Tuesday night she did exactly the same thing when her sister cried, so it wasn't something she had never done before.
he finds his daughter's comment to be strange
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm
That he thought this comment very strange given that MADELEINE had never had this kind of talk [had never spoken like this]
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
She thought her daughter's comment strange because it was the first time she had talked about it.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm
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As long as there's a flat playing field and all that. The evidence of the creche records suggests that the McCanns took their children to the beach on Monday, not Tuesday as they stated. The evidence of Mrs Fenn suggests that there was crying on Tuesday night, not Wednesday. Perhaps the McCanns misremembered which day Madeleine reported the crying incident? After all, it wasn't seen as important at the time.
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As long as there's a flat playing field and all that. The evidence of the creche records suggests that the McCanns took their children to the beach on Monday, not Tuesday as they stated. The evidence of Mrs Fenn suggests that there was crying on Tuesday night, not Wednesday. Perhaps the McCanns misremembered which day Madeleine reported the crying incident? After all, it wasn't seen as important at the time.
When Madeleine was found to be missing ... her parents considered it was very important indeed and ensured the Policia Judiciaria were informed of it. In my opinion it is disingenuous to view and criticise statements as if the witnesses enjoyed the benefit of hindsight.
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When Madeleine was found to be missing ... her parents considered it was very important indeed and ensured the Policia Judiciaria were informed of it. In my opinion it is disingenuous to view and criticise statements as if the witnesses enjoyed the benefit of hindsight.
Is that all statements or just those made by the McCanns and their friends? Perhaps you missed the doubts being expressed about the Smith statements to which I was responding?
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As long as there's a flat playing field and all that. The evidence of the creche records suggests that the McCanns took their children to the beach on Monday, not Tuesday as they stated. The evidence of Mrs Fenn suggests that there was crying on Tuesday night, not Wednesday. Perhaps the McCanns misremembered which day Madeleine reported the crying incident? After all, it wasn't seen as important at the time.
I don't think so as it was on the the evening of the same day that Madeleine spoke to her parents that Kate mentioned it to Fiona and JT at dinner. That was Thursday - the night she disappeared. So I don't think all three of them would get that wrong.
IMO
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I don't think so as it was on the the evening of the same day that Madeleine spoke to her parents that Kate mentioned it to Fiona and JT at dinner. That was Thursday - the night she disappeared. So I don't think all three of them would get that wrong.
IMO
So three Smiths can get things wrong but not a McCann, a Payne and a Tanner? The proximity in time of something is no measure of it's accuracy. Gerry thought he used his front door key to enter the apartment remember! Dave remembered very little, missing Russell's movements and the giggles about Jane relieving him completely;
During the evening, Gerry, Jane and Matthew went, alternately, to their children's bedrooms to check if they were sleeping. He thinks they physically went into the apartments. He no longer remembers in what order they went see their children.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE.htm
Kate missed Matt's 9 pm check out, ascribing it to Russell;
At the same time, one of the group of friends, Russell, went to see his children, without checking on the interviewee's children.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm
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I don't think so as it was on the the evening of the same day that Madeleine spoke to her parents that Kate mentioned it to Fiona and JT at dinner. That was Thursday - the night she disappeared. So I don't think all three of them would get that wrong.
IMO
At the table when Kate was worried about the children i.e. the unlocked patio door and then her daughter disappeared. Telling others straight away at the table about the crying but they still left the door unlocked. Is this a bad B-movie horror script or are they the most useless or unluckiest people in the world ? Or is there another explanation ?
"Questioned about an episode where she related that one of the twins, Sean, and MBM (both children of GM and KH), had cried in the night (the one prior to the events) she said she knew of that situation but only from the beginning of dinner on 3 May when KH commented at the table that MBM had, that morning, asked the reason why her parents had not come to the bedroom when she and her brother had cried (the previous night). Asked, she says that none of the adults were aware of that situation on the night that it supposedly occurred."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER-10MAY.htm
It came up at that, that conversation, which I think was on the, on the, on the Thursday night, about, erm, you know, whether I would feel happy leaving, leaving a door unlocked, but that was the only time I'd heard Kate sort of almost saying, question whether they should do it or not'.
1485
'Did she say that she actually left it unlocked then''
Reply
'Yeah, she must have done, because I knew that it wasn't locked. And I was a bit'.
1485
'And did she'.
Reply
'I mean, I was a bit surprised, I mean, Kate, you were asking about what they're like as parents, and they're certainly not, erm, paranoid parents, what I would call paranoid parents, you know, but they're very, very careful parents. Erm, you know, I've got friends who are very laid back and, you know, I wouldn't be surprised, erm, for them to feel happy doing that sort of thing. But it did surprise me a bit with Kate, because I think, you know, she is, between her and Gerry, they are very different, she is very cautious, Gerry, erm, you know, is probably more sort of happy to, tut, relax and go with the flow and that sort of thing, Kate is very, very much more cautious. So, you know, I think, as I said earlier, I think that was something she wasn't quite happy with'.
1485
'Did she say that she had confronted Gerry over that matter''
Reply
'No. No, I mean, I think they'd discussed it and, you know, she, she had, huh, it sounds like it happens a lot, when I say, you know, about deciding to go on holiday, but, you know, he's very much 'Oh it'll be fine', you know, and she was like, you know, yeah, most of the time he's probably right, you know, she worries a bit too much and he worries less. But, you know, I don't think there was an issue between them about it but, as I say, Kate was, it was just something that I'm sure was on her mind that night'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
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At the table when Kate was worried about the children i.e. the unlocked patio door and then her daughter disappeared. Telling others straight away at the table about the crying but they still left the door unlocked. Is this a bad B-movie horror script or are they the most useless or unluckiest people in the world ? Or is there another explanation ?
"Questioned about an episode where she related that one of the twins, Sean, and MBM (both children of GM and KH), had cried in the night (the one prior to the events) she said she knew of that situation but only from the beginning of dinner on 3 May when KH commented at the table that MBM had, that morning, asked the reason why her parents had not come to the bedroom when she and her brother had cried (the previous night). Asked, she says that none of the adults were aware of that situation on the night that it supposedly occurred."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER-10MAY.htm
It came up at that, that conversation, which I think was on the, on the, on the Thursday night, about, erm, you know, whether I would feel happy leaving, leaving a door unlocked, but that was the only time I'd heard Kate sort of almost saying, question whether they should do it or not'.
1485
'Did she say that she actually left it unlocked then''
Reply
'Yeah, she must have done, because I knew that it wasn't locked. And I was a bit'.
1485
'And did she'.
Reply
'I mean, I was a bit surprised, I mean, Kate, you were asking about what they're like as parents, and they're certainly not, erm, paranoid parents, what I would call paranoid parents, you know, but they're very, very careful parents. Erm, you know, I've got friends who are very laid back and, you know, I wouldn't be surprised, erm, for them to feel happy doing that sort of thing. But it did surprise me a bit with Kate, because I think, you know, she is, between her and Gerry, they are very different, she is very cautious, Gerry, erm, you know, is probably more sort of happy to, tut, relax and go with the flow and that sort of thing, Kate is very, very much more cautious. So, you know, I think, as I said earlier, I think that was something she wasn't quite happy with'.
1485
'Did she say that she had confronted Gerry over that matter''
Reply
'No. No, I mean, I think they'd discussed it and, you know, she, she had, huh, it sounds like it happens a lot, when I say, you know, about deciding to go on holiday, but, you know, he's very much 'Oh it'll be fine', you know, and she was like, you know, yeah, most of the time he's probably right, you know, she worries a bit too much and he worries less. But, you know, I don't think there was an issue between them about it but, as I say, Kate was, it was just something that I'm sure was on her mind that night'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
.
It's impossible to work out how often or why the patio doors were left unlocked. Was it every evening from Sunday onwards, as Russell suggests, or from Wednesday evening as Gerry suggests. Was it done to allow friends to check on the children, to avoid waking them or to let Madeleine get out? Was the decision taken by both parents or imposed on Kate by Gerry? Did Kate really think it was appropriate for Madeleine to leave the apartment to find them? A very badly told story imo.
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The mother mentions in passing? but is concerned as well? does nothing- strange. I mean she doesn't even say what spurred Madeleine to broach the subject. The child was obviously affected by it to mention it. What did the parents explain happened as to why the were not present- knowing their child was affected by this incident why did they not take them out to dinner with them? So many things to think about regarding this one little brief paragraph, which the parents offer nothing regarding a fuller explanation. I find this particularly interesting.
The devil is always in the detail...
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Anyone who knows anything about children will know that if they had woken one night, alone and in the dark, and non one had come when they cried it would be the devil's own job to get them to sleep again the next night.
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Anyone who knows anything about children will know that if they had woken one night, alone and in the dark, and non one had come when they cried it would be the devil's own job to get them to sleep again the next night.
exactly faith! My very point. This is where we tie in the reason for leaving doors unlocked. Did Maddie tell anyone else about this? by all accounts she was a very astute articulate little girl. What else did she talk to her parents about I wonder.
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Anyone who knows anything about children will know that if they had woken one night, alone and in the dark, and non one had come when they cried it would be the devil's own job to get them to sleep again the next night.
Except at the mysterious 37.0909° N, 8.7591° W
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Except at the mysterious 37.0909° N, 8.7591° W
Goes without saying Alice !
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exactly faith! My very point. This is where we tie in the reason for leaving doors unlocked. Did Maddie tell anyone else about this? by all accounts she was a very astute articulate little girl. What else did she talk to her parents about I wonder.
You tell me since you brought it up, " What else did she talk to her parents about?"
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"Why didn't you come/where were you when the twins/Sean and I cried?"
Answer; "Because we weren't in"
"
Simple.
Kate; It was a passing comment. [But a question requires an answer and a comment doesn't.]
Kate; "Where were you when I cried?"
Kate; "It just seemed a bit odd" [Why?]
Kate; "She doesn't usually wake up". [This is about Wednesday evening and Madeleine had woken up the previous evening]
Kate; "She must have fallen back asleep very quickly" [Well, it could have taken 25-45 or more minutes]
Kate; "And then she moved on" (shrugs) "she moved on"
Gerry; "We asked her about it and she just dropped...she was completely fine" [So Madeleine asked a question and was answered with a question. What question?]
Gerry; "And then we thought was it when they were bathing getting 'em, you know, first putting 'em down in that period when they're really tired". [We don't know, but Kate and Gerry should, they were there.]
Both then emphasise that they would never have thought of that comment again if Madeleine hadn't been abducted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnpM6_Jpd-g
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Kate; "The thing is, Sandra, it was a passing remark. Madeleine just said 'where were you when Sean and I cried?'"
[Just? Said? The word is 'asked' and it was a question, not a remark]
Kate; "And we thought" [Answering a question is the usual response, not thinking. Kate knew the answer; she wasn't there to hear them crying.]
Kate; "Was that kind of maybe when they were getting a bath?" [Kate knows the answer t that, she bathed them]
Kate; "Or maybe sometimes at that time of night when they're a bit tired they cry a little bit" [Why would Madeleine ask the question if it was when Kate was with her?]
Kate; "So I thought well we were checking so regularly" [Every 30 minutes with a longer gap when they went into the bar]
Kate; "That I thought 'Well, if she's woken up obviously she's fallen back asleep very quickly" [How long is very quickly, and why isn't Sean part of the discussion here?]
Kate then tells us that never in a million years would you think she woke up because someone tried to take her out of the bedroom. I agree, you wouldn't think that, you would think that your children had woken up and cried and you weren't there to see to them.
Kate "I said to her 'What do you mean Madeleine, when was this?' [What did she mean? It's clear enough to me what she meant. A time check by a 3 year old is asking a lot imo]
Kate; "And she dropped it, she started playing with something it was just a passing remark"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqQ1-rUuTxM
It was a question that was answered with another question, not a passing remark. There was enough information there for most parents to understand that their children had been awake and crying despite their regular checks. The McCann's response? Nothing. No change. Carry on as before. Maybe the children did cry, but they quickly fell asleep again, so that's OK.
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"Why didn't you come/where were you when the twins/Sean and I cried?"
Answer; "Because we weren't in"
"
Simple.
Kate; It was a passing comment. [But a question requires an answer and a comment doesn't.]
Kate; "Where were you when I cried?"
Kate; "It just seemed a bit odd" [Why?]
Kate; "She doesn't usually wake up". [This is about Wednesday evening and Madeleine had woken up the previous evening]
Kate; "She must have fallen back asleep very quickly" [Well, it could have taken 25-45 or more minutes]
Kate; "And then she moved on" (shrugs) "she moved on"
Gerry; "We asked her about it and she just dropped...she was completely fine" [So Madeleine asked a question and was answered with a question. What question?]
Gerry; "And then we thought was it when they were bathing getting 'em, you know, first putting 'em down in that period when they're really tired". [We don't know, but Kate and Gerry should, they were there.]
Both then emphasise that they would never have thought of that comment again if Madeleine hadn't been abducted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnpM6_Jpd-g
Sorry to say this, but what a catty analysis.
Every comment pulled down by you. Jeez!
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Sorry to say this, but what a catty analysis.
Every comment pulled down by you. Jeez!
The problem lies with the story, not my analysis of it. The McCanns suggested that their children cried because an abductor tried to take one of them, woke them and ran away. As a result the abductor returned on Thursday night armed with some means of silencing the children. That's why the twins didn't wake up during the night of 3rd-4th, they suggest.
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You tell me since you brought it up, " What else did she talk to her parents about?"
Well I am sure I don't know. She may have expressed concern about other things that bother children, her parents may or may not want to share those conversations. One thing is for sure, the parents didn't pay any attention to her concerns if her parents attitude and behaviour are anything to go by.
There is no begining or end to that conversation offered which gives me cause for feeling really sad about what they did to that child. Ignored her and carried on regardless doing what THEY wanted to do on THEIR holiday.
It seriously upset me when Kate told that, especially when she did that tutting, squinty face thing on camera.
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The problem lies with the story, not my analysis of it. The McCanns suggested that their children cried because an abductor tried to take one of them, woke them and ran away. As a result the abductor returned on Thursday night armed with some means of silencing the children. That's why the twins didn't wake up during the night of 3rd-4th, they suggest.
Maddie’s Irish Family Speaks Out
September 24, 2007
By Paddy Clancy
MISSING British toddler Madeleine McCann’s Donegal-born grandmother, Eileen McCann, has stoutly defended the child’s parents after they were named as formal suspects in the disappearance.
Eileen added in an interview with Donegal’s Highland Radio that she was convinced whoever took three-year-old Madeleine from the family’s holiday apartment in Portugal had drugged her beforehand.
“If she was taken by somebody she did not know when she was sleeping she would have screamed the place down. I really believe they gave her a drug. There is no way they carried her out of there without her wakening,” Eileen said.
http://www.irishabroad.com/Modules/CMS/Articles/DSSPrintArticle.aspx?ArticleID=1832
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Maddie’s Irish Family Speaks Out
September 24, 2007
By Paddy Clancy
MISSING British toddler Madeleine McCann’s Donegal-born grandmother, Eileen McCann, has stoutly defended the child’s parents after they were named as formal suspects in the disappearance.
Eileen added in an interview with Donegal’s Highland Radio that she was convinced whoever took three-year-old Madeleine from the family’s holiday apartment in Portugal had drugged her beforehand.
“If she was taken by somebody she did not know when she was sleeping she would have screamed the place down. I really believe they gave her a drug. There is no way they carried her out of there without her wakening,” Eileen said.
http://www.irishabroad.com/Modules/CMS/Articles/DSSPrintArticle.aspx?ArticleID=1832
So someone else was 'wandering in and out of the apartment unnoticed? all three children drugged? seems a reasonable suggestion as they were all light sleepers ALL Except this ONE night. The ONE night where chaos descended into that bedroom. parents howling ...and the twins slept through it all. And Maddie was quiet when 'snatched' from her bed? hmm Well what does one make of this?
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Well I am sure I don't know. She may have expressed concern about other things that bother children, her parents may or may not want to share those conversations. One thing is for sure, the parents didn't pay any attention to her concerns if her parents attitude and behaviour are anything to go by.
There is no begining or end to that conversation offered which gives me cause for feeling really sad about what they did to that child. Ignored her and carried on regardless doing what THEY wanted to do on THEIR holiday.
It seriously upset me when Kate told that, especially when she did that tutting, squinty face thing on camera.
It's called curling your lip;
to pull your top lip upwards at one side in a way that shows that you are annoyed, bored, or do not respect someone.
Raise a corner of one's upper lip to show contempt; sneer
Why the story should trigger one of the above emotional reactions I don't know.
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It's called curling your lip;
to pull your top lip upwards at one side in a way that shows that you are annoyed, bored, or do not respect someone.
Raise a corner of one's upper lip to show contempt; sneer
Why the story should trigger one of the above emotional reactions I don't know.
That is exactly why I was so astonished, she tried to brush it off,didn't really want to be pulled into the depth of her claim. One would think she would wring her hands and claim to be stupid for not listening to her daughter but.... well No.. not a bit of that. just a shrug and tut and an almost a teenage 'what ev er ' response.
From a mother of a child who she thought was abducted by paedophiles- It is so sick really! IMO.
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So someone else was 'wandering in and out of the apartment unnoticed? all three children drugged? seems a reasonable suggestion as they were all light sleepers ALL Except this ONE night. The ONE night where chaos descended into that bedroom. parents howling ...and the twins slept through it all. And Maddie was quiet when 'snatched' from her bed? hmm Well what does one make of this?
I never knew that the twins were ever light sleepers. Where did you get this from? Cite please.
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That is exactly why I was so astonished, she tried to brush it off,didn't really want to be pulled into the depth of her claim. One would think she would wring her hands and claim to be stupid for not listening to her daughter but.... well No.. not a bit of that. just a shrug and tut and an almost a teenage 'what ev er ' response.
From a mother of a child who she thought was abducted by paedophiles- It is so sick really! IMO.
She has expressed regret for not getting the full story from Madeleine, but she has no evidence that there was anything more her daughter could tell her. The 'abduction dummy run' is something she's imagined, not something that really happened.
The facts she is telling us are; her kids cried and she wasn't there. Even though this was brought to her attention she left them again.
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I never knew that the twins were ever light sleepers. Where did you get this from? Cite please.
Oh just read what the parents claimed. They did not do physical checks or use a particular door as they didn't want to wake the children.
None of my children woke up when I opened their door to check them. One can only assume the doors to the apartment were very loud, well loud enough to wake people out of a sleep!
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Oh just read what the parents claimed. They did not do physical checks or use a particular door as they didn't want to wake the children.
None of my children woke up when I opened their door to check them. One can only assume the doors to the apartment were very loud, well loud enough to wake people out of a sleep!
All children are different. Some sleep deeply, others do not. I never closed the doors on my childrens bedrooms and because my son was such a light sleeper, I never even approached the door when we went to bed. We crept around with bare feet and never even flushed the lavatory at our bedtime.
Our daughter, on the other hand slept like a log until she was older.
So you dont have a cite that the twins were light sleepers? In the interest of accuracy, do you think you should amend your post ?
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All children are different. Some sleep deeply, others do not. I never closed the doors on my childrens bedrooms and because my son was such a light sleeper, I never even approached the door when we went to bed. We crept around with bare feet and never even flushed the lavatory at our bedtime.
Our daughter, on the other hand slept like a log until she was older.
So you dont have a cite that the twins were light sleepers? In the interest of accuracy, do you think you should amend your post ?
Gerry claimed that he and his wife left the patio doors open so they wouldn't wake the children by opening the main door. Are you saying he took an unnecessary risk with his children's safety when there was no need ?
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Gerry claimed that he and his wife left the patio doors open so they wouldn't wake the children by opening the main door. Are you saying he took an unnecessary risk with his children's safety when there was no need ?
Maybe he really want to prove to himself the front door was locked (single locked at least).
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Gerry claimed that he and his wife left the patio doors open so they wouldn't wake the children by opening the main door. Are you saying he took an unnecessary risk with his children's safety when there was no need ?
I am not talking children plural.
I am not atlking Madeleine who we have been told was a light sleeper at one time
I am talking twins as Mistaken claimed. She claimed that the TWINS were light sleepers.
Had Madeleine wakened as the front door was opened and disturbed the twins then all three might have been awake.
I am asking Mistaken for a cite to prove that the twins were light sleepers.
So far no cite has been given.
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I am not talking children plural.
I am not atlking Madeleine who we have been told was a light sleeper at one time
I am talking twins as Mistaken claimed. She claimed that the TWINS were light sleepers.
Had Madeleine wakened as the front door was opened and disturbed the twins then all three might have been awake.
I am asking Mistaken for a cite to prove that the twins were light sleepers.
So far no cite has been given.
Gerry said he did not want to wake 'them'. I think we can therefore presume that at least one of the twins was a light sleeper.
From 'Madeleine Was Here'
'G: Part of the reason we ended up coming through the back was the noise coming through the front door. We didn’t want to disturb them. Sigh. Stupid, now, isn’t it.'
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Gerry said he did not want to wake 'them'. I think we can therefore presume that at least one of the twins was a light sleeper.
From 'Madeleine Was Here'
'G: Part of the reason we ended up coming through the back was the noise coming through the front door. We didn’t want to disturb them. Sigh. Stupid, now, isn’t it.'
Wasn't Kate peering to see if Madeleine was there in the dark because she didn't want to wake the children by switching the light on?
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Wasn't Kate peering to see if Madeleine was there in the dark because she didn't want to wake the children by switching the light on?
She was.
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She was.
OK. So the children's parents are saying they could have been woken by someone using the front door or by someone switching the bedroom light on.
Judging by what Kate says in her book they weren't convinced that Madeleine was telling the truth;
Could Madeleine and Sean have woken up while we were at dinner? If so, it was worrying, obviously, but it didn’t seem very probable......Children usually need some soothing back to sleep once they’ve woken, especially if two of them are awake and upset at the same time, and it seemed highly unlikely they’d have gone through all these
stages without one of them overlapping with one of our checks. It wasn’t impossible, but it seemed implausible.
[madeleine]
Only after Madeleine's disappearance did it become not only probable and plausible, it became an important detail to share with the PJ and the FLO's. The unlikelihood that two children would go back to sleep after crying is forgotten. Kate is now prepared to believe they did so after being disturbed by an intruder 'either in or trying to get into the children's bedroom'! An intruder in the bedroom wakes the children but they nod off again without needing any soothing? Sorry, but that's too much to expect anyone to believe in my opinion.
At least she has the honesty in her book to admit that Madeleine asked a question which they didn't answer;
It was more a case of her question just hanging there quietly, unanswered [madeleine].
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Gerry said he did not want to wake 'them'. I think we can therefore presume that at least one of the twins was a light sleeper.
From 'Madeleine Was Here'
'G: Part of the reason we ended up coming through the back was the noise coming through the front door. We didn’t want to disturb them. Sigh. Stupid, now, isn’t it.'
Wake the light sleeper Madeleine and they would all be awakened. Hence Gerry saying that he did not want to wake them.#
IMO
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OK. So the children's parents are saying they could have been woken by someone using the front door or by someone switching the bedroom light on.
Judging by what Kate says in her book they weren't convinced that Madeleine was telling the truth;
Could Madeleine and Sean have woken up while we were at dinner? If so, it was worrying, obviously, but it didn’t seem very probable......Children usually need some soothing back to sleep once they’ve woken, especially if two of them are awake and upset at the same time, and it seemed highly unlikely they’d have gone through all these
stages without one of them overlapping with one of our checks. It wasn’t impossible, but it seemed implausible.
[madeleine]
Only after Madeleine's disappearance did it become not only probable and plausible, it became an important detail to share with the PJ and the FLO's. The unlikelihood that two children would go back to sleep after crying is forgotten. Kate is now prepared to believe they did so after being disturbed by an intruder 'either in or trying to get into the children's bedroom'! An intruder in the bedroom wakes the children but they nod off again without needing any soothing? Sorry, but that's too much to expect anyone to believe in my opinion.
At least she has the honesty in her book to admit that Madeleine asked a question which they didn't answer;
It was more a case of her question just hanging there quietly, unanswered [madeleine].
That is in your opinion.is it?
'cos in my opinion you are wrong.
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Wake the light sleeper Madeleine and they would all be awakened. Hence Gerry saying that he did not want to wake them.#
I made it plain in my previous post. Seems you either did not bother to read it, or you are just steam rollering over it .... and pretending I didn't say it?
IMO
You have no idea what Gerry meant, it is simply your opinion, and it is you who are doing the steam rollering by pretending that you do.
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You have no idea what Gerry meant, it is simply your opinion, and it is you who are doing the steam rollering by pretending that you do.
I have made it quite clear that it is my opinion.
Hows about you making it clear that your thought "that one of the twins was a light sleeper" is ONLY your opinion too.
How about adhering to forum rules?
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I have made it quite clear that it is my opinion.
Hows about you making it clear that your thought "that one of the twins was a light sleeper" is ONLY your opinion too.
How about adhering to forum rules?
Where Faithlilly now says "I think we can therefore presume that at least one of the twins was a light sleeper." The words "I think" is equivalent to IMO in my books. So are you happy?
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Wake the light sleeper Madeleine and they would all be awakened. Hence Kate saying that she did not want to wake "them."
I made it plain in my earlier post. Seems you either did not bother to read it, or you, too, are just steam rollering over it .... and pretending I didn't say it?
IMO
Who, apart from you, has described Madeleine as a light sleeper? Who, apart from you, has said she would wake the twins if she woke up?
I read your post but unless you have some evidence to support what you say, it's just an unsupported opinion.
Sean and Amelie had always been perfect sleepers, and Madeleine had outgrown the restlessness of her babyhood......[madeleine]
So, all three could be expected to sleep so long as no lights were turned on and no doors were opened and closed. That's not, in my opinion, a description of 'perfect' sleepers, whatever that means. Like all children, they woke up occasionally; Aunt Janet says that's why the parents checked on them. She says they didn't let the children cry and she still, a year after the event, didn't seem convinced by Madeleine's story about the crying.
The children would occasionally awake during the night, particularly when they wanted to eat or be changed. Kate and Gerry would get up and take care of them it was for this reason they wanted to check on them when they were out....... As parents, Kate and Gerry did not let their children cry......They checked on their children constantly; the children always came first so that their routine was not disturbed.........Relative to the allegation that Madeleine made regarding Sean's crying, I do not have any idea what possessed Madeleine to make such an affirmation and also would state that Madeleine had a very fertile imagination.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANNET-KENNEDY.htm
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That is in your opinion.is it?
'cos in my opinion you are wrong.
My opinion is based on the evidence. Kate described the crying as improbable, unlikely and implausible. That's because she didn't think they'd cry and then go back to sleep without being soothed. Then Madeleine disappeared and she reported it to the PJ and the FLO's. She must have changed her mind, mustn't she if she's now reporting it as if it happened? She now seems prepared to accept that they did cry and go back to sleep on their own?
In my opinion children can cry a little and nod back off in the space of 30 minutes, but if they were woken because there was an intruder in the bedroom going back to sleep really would be improbable, unlikely and implausible.
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Who, apart from you, has described Madeleine as a light sleeper? Who, apart from you, has said she would wake the twins if she woke up?
I read your post but unless you have some evidence to support what you say, it's just an unsupported opinion.
Sean and Amelie had always been perfect sleepers, and Madeleine had outgrown the restlessness of her babyhood......[madeleine]
So, all three could be expected to sleep so long as no lights were turned on and no doors were opened and closed. That's not, in my opinion, a description of 'perfect' sleepers, whatever that means. Like all children, they woke up occasionally; Aunt Janet says that's why the parents checked on them. She says they didn't let the children cry and she still, a year after the event, didn't seem convinced by Madeleine's story about the crying.
The children would occasionally awake during the night, particularly when they wanted to eat or be changed. Kate and Gerry would get up and take care of them it was for this reason they wanted to check on them when they were out....... As parents, Kate and Gerry did not let their children cry......They checked on their children constantly; the children always came first so that their routine was not disturbed.........Relative to the allegation that Madeleine made regarding Sean's crying, I do not have any idea what possessed Madeleine to make such an affirmation and also would state that Madeleine had a very fertile imagination.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANNET-KENNEDY.htm
Janet knew the kids back in Rothley where they had separate rooms I presume (for Kate still talks about Madeleine's bedroom. Gerry mentions that the twins may have woken Madeleine.
"---- When asked about the time he went to check the children on the night of Madeleine's disappearance, he states remembering that he did it, according to his watch, around 21:04. He remembers that once inside the apartment he thought strange only the fact of the door to the children's room being slightly more open than how the defendant had left it when he and Kate left for dinner. However, he puts the hypothesis of [proposes; suggests] it having been Madeleine opening that door after having woken and having got up, possibly to go to her parents' room. On this occasion the three children were lying in their beds and asleep, he is sure of that. "
also "--- The third check was made by Kate at around 22:00. He does not know how long it was before Kate returned, but he does remember that shortly before she returned he was thinking of going to see what was going on, as it seemed a long time and he thought that one of children might have woken up."
Kate: "With the exception of what has been described above, during the holidays, she does not remember if any of the children was awake during the night. However, in England Madeleine sometimes woke up during the night, around 2 ' 2:30 AM and went to her parents. During holidays it was normal for the children to be awake by 7:30/8:00, in England, at home, they would normally wake between 7 and 7:30 AM."
Gerry McCann 10th May "----- He followed the normal route up to the rear door, which being open he only had to move [slide] it, that being the way in which he entered [was entering] the lounge, he noted that the children's bedroom door was not ajar as he had left it but half-way open, which he thought strange, having then put together the thought of MADELEINE having got up to go to sleep in his bedroom so as to avoid the noise produced [created] by her siblings."
So at the time Gerry thought it likely.
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My opinion is based on the evidence. Kate described the crying as improbable, unlikely and implausible. That's because she didn't think they'd cry and then go back to sleep without being soothed. Then Madeleine disappeared and she reported it to the PJ and the FLO's. She must have changed her mind, mustn't she if she's now reporting it as if it happened? She now seems prepared to accept that they did cry and go back to sleep on their own?
In my opinion children can cry a little and nod back off in the space of 30 minutes, but if they were woken because there was an intruder in the bedroom going back to sleep really would be improbable, unlikely and implausible.
Can you give a cite for this statement "She now seems prepared to accept that they did cry and go back to sleep on their own?" please, for I think it may be different in the Kate is thinking someone else provided the comfort to them to get them back to sleep.
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Janet knew the kids back in Rothley where they had separate rooms I presume (for Kate still talks about Madeleine's bedroom. Gerry mentions that the twins may have woken Madeleine.
"---- When asked about the time he went to check the children on the night of Madeleine's disappearance, he states remembering that he did it, according to his watch, around 21:04. He remembers that once inside the apartment he thought strange only the fact of the door to the children's room being slightly more open than how the defendant had left it when he and Kate left for dinner. However, he puts the hypothesis of [proposes; suggests] it having been Madeleine opening that door after having woken and having got up, possibly to go to her parents' room. On this occasion the three children were lying in their beds and asleep, he is sure of that. "
also "--- The third check was made by Kate at around 22:00. He does not know how long it was before Kate returned, but he does remember that shortly before she returned he was thinking of going to see what was going on, as it seemed a long time and he thought that one of children might have woken up."
Kate: "With the exception of what has been described above, during the holidays, she does not remember if any of the children was awake during the night. However, in England Madeleine sometimes woke up during the night, around 2 ' 2:30 AM and went to her parents. During holidays it was normal for the children to be awake by 7:30/8:00, in England, at home, they would normally wake between 7 and 7:30 AM."
Gerry McCann 10th May "----- He followed the normal route up to the rear door, which being open he only had to move [slide] it, that being the way in which he entered [was entering] the lounge, he noted that the children's bedroom door was not ajar as he had left it but half-way open, which he thought strange, having then put together the thought of MADELEINE having got up to go to sleep in his bedroom so as to avoid the noise produced [created] by her siblings."
So at the time Gerry thought it likely.
It seems strange to me that he thought of that explanation because Madeleine, according to her parents, practically never woke before the small hours.
Both parents seemed to agree that it was OK to leave the children and go out because of the unlikelihood of them waking;
If Madeleine ever woke during the night it was always in the small hours, practically never earlier than two or three in the morning [madeleine]
Gerry never did work out why the door had moved. It's unlikely that it was Madeleine; she was sleeping just as he'd left her. Having established that it wasn't her, he seems to have decided to ignore the problem. He never takes it a step further as in 'if it wasn't Madeleine who moved the door who did?'. He moved on and left the apartment. Extraordinary in my opinion.
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It seems strange to me that he thought of that explanation because Madeleine, according to her parents, practically never woke before the small hours.
Both parents seemed to agree that it was OK to leave the children and go out because of the unlikelihood of them waking;
If Madeleine ever woke during the night it was always in the small hours, practically never earlier than two or three in the morning [madeleine]
Gerry never did work out why the door had moved. It's unlikely that it was Madeleine; she was sleeping just as he'd left her. Having established that it wasn't her, he seems to have decided to ignore the problem. He never takes it a step further as in 'if it wasn't Madeleine who moved the door who did?'. He moved on and left the apartment. Extraordinary in my opinion.
Interesting, that. Perhaps keen to get back to his socialising, though he then wastes time talking to Jez, when he doesn't need to.
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It seems strange to me that he thought of that explanation because Madeleine, according to her parents, practically never woke before the small hours.
Both parents seemed to agree that it was OK to leave the children and go out because of the unlikelihood of them waking;
If Madeleine ever woke during the night it was always in the small hours, practically never earlier than two or three in the morning [madeleine]
Gerry never did work out why the door had moved. It's unlikely that it was Madeleine; she was sleeping just as he'd left her. Having established that it wasn't her, he seems to have decided to ignore the problem. He never takes it a step further as in 'if it wasn't Madeleine who moved the door who did?'. He moved on and left the apartment. Extraordinary in my opinion.
With respect G once again hindsight is being brought into play here imo.
IMO Gerry had no reason to be unduly alarmed about the slightly different position of the door at that time - as there were innocent reasons.
His children were all safe and fast asleep - and, without the benefit of hindsight, there was no reason for him to suddenly become highly suspicious or to realise that the position of the door was something he should be concerned about in the way you seem to be suggesting IMO. It was not until he too had the benefit of hindsight that he realised the different position of the door could have been for sinister reasons.
All in my opinion.
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With respect G once again hindsight is being brought into play here imo.
IMO Gerry had no reason to be unduly alarmed about the slightly different position of the door at that time - as there were innocent reasons.
His children were all safe and fast asleep - and, without the benefit of hindsight, there was no reason for him to suddenly become highly suspicious or to realise that the position of the door was something he should be concerned about in the way you seem to be suggesting IMO. It was not until he too had the benefit of hindsight that he realised the different position of the door could have been for sinister reasons.
All in my opinion.
You quote 'innocent reasons' for the door moving from 'ajar' to 'half-way open'. Gerry gave one reason, which seemed unlikely because a) It was not usual for Madeleine to wake until the early hours and b) he found no evidence that she had. What other 'innocent reasons' did he give?
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With respect G once again hindsight is being brought into play here imo.
IMO Gerry had no reason to be unduly alarmed about the slightly different position of the door at that time - as there were innocent reasons.
His children were all safe and fast asleep - and, without the benefit of hindsight, there was no reason for him to suddenly become highly suspicious or to realise that the position of the door was something he should be concerned about in the way you seem to be suggesting IMO. It was not until he too had the benefit of hindsight that he realised the different position of the door could have been for sinister reasons.
All in my opinion.
What were those 'innocent reasons' Benice ?
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It seems strange to me that he thought of that explanation because Madeleine, according to her parents, practically never woke before the small hours.
Both parents seemed to agree that it was OK to leave the children and go out because of the unlikelihood of them waking;
If Madeleine ever woke during the night it was always in the small hours, practically never earlier than two or three in the morning [madeleine]
Gerry never did work out why the door had moved. It's unlikely that it was Madeleine; she was sleeping just as he'd left her. Having established that it wasn't her, he seems to have decided to ignore the problem. He never takes it a step further as in 'if it wasn't Madeleine who moved the door who did?'. He moved on and left the apartment. Extraordinary in my opinion.
Indeed, during Madeleine Was Here, Gerry says that at no point other than that night did he stick his head in, as the door was like that (ie wide open) for him & he knew (how) he'd left it.
So significant was that wide open door, (which, when opened again later gave Matt an unimpeded view) that he stuck his head in for the first time that week.
He saw Maddie sleeping, where he had left her, so he knew it wasn't her that opened the door.
But as you say, he did nothing but pull the door too again,
https://youtu.be/na4aBr5PTYY?t=290
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What were those 'innocent reasons' Benice ?
It seems to me that as everything was fine at the time and he had no reason to be alarmed, he didn't dwell too long or think deeply about the the position of the door.
If he had decided to think more about it then - putting myself in his shoes, I would have wondered whether Kate may have been the last one to close the door, or that I might have been mistaken about the position of the door I'd left it in, or that maybe a draught moved the door a little, when I'd opened the patio door. The one thing I wouldn't consider was whether an intruder had moved it.
Pure speculation on my part of course, but imo those are all viable innocent reasons that would have been likely to go through the mind of any normal person, who had no inkling of the terrible events that were going to happen
As it happens I don't think he did get as far as puzzling more deeply over the door position, because he was satisfied that everything was fine with the children, and so he had no need to.
All in my opinion, no-one is obliged to agree with me.
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My opinion is based on the evidence. Kate described the crying as improbable, unlikely and implausible. That's because she didn't think they'd cry and then go back to sleep without being soothed. Then Madeleine disappeared and she reported it to the PJ and the FLO's. She must have changed her mind, mustn't she if she's now reporting it as if it happened? She now seems prepared to accept that they did cry and go back to sleep on their own?
In my opinion children can cry a little and nod back off in the space of 30 minutes, but if they were woken because there was an intruder in the bedroom going back to sleep really would be improbable, unlikely and implausible.
G-unit Can you give a cite for this statement "She now seems prepared to accept that they did cry and go back to sleep on their own?"
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It seems to me that as everything was fine at the time and he had no reason to be alarmed, he didn't dwell too long or think deeply about the the position of the door.
If he had decided to think more about it then - putting myself in his shoes, I would have wondered whether Kate may have been the last one to close the door, or that I might have been mistaken about the position of the door I'd left it in, or that maybe a draught moved the door a little, when I'd opened the patio door. The one thing I wouldn't consider was whether an intruder had moved it.
Pure speculation on my part of course, but imo those are all viable innocent reasons that would have been likely to go through the mind of any normal person, who had no inkling of the terrible events that were going to happen
As it happens I don't think he did get as far as puzzling more deeply over the door position, because he was satisfied that everything was fine with the children, and so he had no need to.
All in my opinion, no-one is obliged to agree with me.
Three people Kate, Gerry and Oldfield all mention the door being open wider than they expected it to be. Don't you think that if it really wasn't anything to 'puzzle over' that's rather strange ?
Further as we know now from OG the disappearance probably didn't happen before 9.45 so how did the door become ' open wider' on Gerry's check and Gerry having closed it over then opens again wide enough for Oldfield to see the twins in their cots at 9.30 ?
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Three people Kate, Gerry and Oldfield all mention the door being open wider than they expected it to be. Don't you think that if it really wasn't anything to 'puzzle over' that's rather strange ?
Further as we know now from OG the disappearance probably didn't happen before 9.45 so how did the door become ' open wider' on Gerry's check and Gerry having closed it over then opens again wide enough for Oldfield to see the twins in their cots at 9.30 ?
It is always possible Madeleine in particular was getting up and moving about. That can't be eliminated from the equation IMO.
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So significant was that wide open door, (which, when opened again later gave Matt an unimpeded view) that he stuck his head in for the first time that week.
Only it didn't allow Matt to see Madeleine.
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Three people Kate, Gerry and Oldfield all mention the door being open wider than they expected it to be. Don't you think that if it really wasn't anything to 'puzzle over' that's rather strange ?
Further as we know now from OG the disappearance probably didn't happen before 9.45 so how did the door become ' open wider' on Gerry's check and Gerry having closed it over then opens again wide enough for Oldfield to see the twins in their cots at 9.30 ?
No I don't think it is strange. IMO Kate's first thought would be that Matt had left it in that position and Matt would think the door position was how Kate and Gerry had left it - because no-one had any reason to think an intruder could have been involved at that time. It was only with hindsight - after Madeleine disappeared that the position of the door, not only as Kate had found it, but also how Gerry and Matt had found it - became an issue.
AIMHO
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G-unit Can you give a cite for this statement "She now seems prepared to accept that they did cry and go back to sleep on their own?"
It's a logical conclusion, not a quote.
Kate said Madeleine's story was unlikely, implausible and improbable.
Why?
Because she didn't think the children would cry and then go back to sleep without being soothed.
She and Gerry then report Madeleine's story to the police the following day, and to the FLO's the day after that.
Why?
Because they decided there may be a 'sinister reason' for the occurrence. As Kate says;
it is my belief there was somebody either in or trying to get into the children’s bedroom that night, and that is what disturbed them. [madeleine]
It's clear to me that she is saying that she, with hindsight, now believes Madeleine's story.
If she believes it now, then she must have decided it's no longer unlikely, implausible and improbable.
The original reason for her doubts, of course, remains unaltered. The children did go back to sleep without being soothed. Kate now appears to have demolished her original reason for doubting the story.
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It seems to me that as everything was fine at the time and he had no reason to be alarmed, he didn't dwell too long or think deeply about the the position of the door.
If he had decided to think more about it then - putting myself in his shoes, I would have wondered whether Kate may have been the last one to close the door, or that I might have been mistaken about the position of the door I'd left it in, or that maybe a draught moved the door a little, when I'd opened the patio door. The one thing I wouldn't consider was whether an intruder had moved it.
Pure speculation on my part of course, but imo those are all viable innocent reasons that would have been likely to go through the mind of any normal person, who had no inkling of the terrible events that were going to happen
As it happens I don't think he did get as far as puzzling more deeply over the door position, because he was satisfied that everything was fine with the children, and so he had no need to.
All in my opinion, no-one is obliged to agree with me.
I agree that it's possible to think of innocent reasons why the door wasn't as he thought he left it. As Gerry doesn't mention any of those reasons, however, we can't assume that he thought of them.
I had a similar experience once. Checking my children on my way to bed I was puzzled and alarmed by the loft hatch, which was in their room, being half open. It wasn't like that when I put them to bed. I was eight and a half months pregnant and my husband was away. I slept in their room that night, directly under the hatch so that on the remote chance that anyone came through it, I would be there.
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I agree that it's possible to think of innocent reasons why the door wasn't as he thought he left it. As Gerry doesn't mention any of those reasons, however, we can't assume that he thought of them.
I had a similar experience once. Checking my children on my way to bed I was puzzled and alarmed by the loft hatch, which was in their room, being half open. It wasn't like that when I put them to bed. I was eight and a half months pregnant and my husband was away. I slept in their room that night, directly under the hatch so that on the remote chance that anyone came through it, I would be there.
It’s the concept of it being strange that a door in an apartment in which there was a ambulatory nearly 4yo that baffles me.
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It’s the concept of it being strange that a door in an apartment in which there was a ambulatory nearly 4yo that baffles me.
It is the concept of everyone remebering the attitude of the door, as they left it, with such clarity that baffles me.
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Door was pulled too at bedtime by Kate & Gerry, together, as shown in crimewatch.
Door open wider at 9pm, Gerry makes a visual check purely because of this, he returns the door to it's original position, Maddie is still lying as they left her, (so she hadn't got up & moved the door herself).
Door wide open again on Matts visit, room so light he can see the twins breathing.
Door pulled further too again when Kate checks, wind slams the door shut just at that precise moment she goes to close it, (how extraordinary!), so, she only makes a visual check because of this wind, & now it's so dark in there that she can't even see if the empty bed is occupied or not.
Wind blows the curtains open. All is revealed.
That's about the size of it, & it's difficult to believe.
Good job that door kept moving & the wind blew or neither parent would have visually checked at all, & poor Maddie might not have been discovered missing until the morning.
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Door was pulled too at bedtime by Kate & Gerry, together, as shown in crimewatch.
Door open wider at 9pm, Gerry makes a visual check purely because of this, he returns the door to it's original position, Maddie is still lying as they left her, (so she hadn't got up & moved the door herself).
Door wide open again on Matts visit, room so light he can see the twins breathing.
Door pulled further too again when Kate checks, wind slams the door shut just at that precise moment she goes to close it, (how extraordinary!), so, she only makes a visual check because of this wind, & now it's so dark in there that she can't even see if the empty bed is occupied or not.
Wind blows the curtains open. All is revealed.
That's about the size of it, & it's difficult to believe.
Good job that door kept moving & the wind blew or neither parent would have visually checked at all, & poor Maddie might not have been discovered missing until the morning.
You make it sound like it was good thing the discovery was found at night. What would have been the problem if it was discovered at 8:00 AM next morning? There wouldn't be all the disturbance of the crime scene and the case may have been solved.
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I agree that it's possible to think of innocent reasons why the door wasn't as he thought he left it. As Gerry doesn't mention any of those reasons, however, we can't assume that he thought of them.
I had a similar experience once. Checking my children on my way to bed I was puzzled and alarmed by the loft hatch, which was in their room, being half open. It wasn't like that when I put them to bed. I was eight and a half months pregnant and my husband was away. I slept in their room that night, directly under the hatch so that on the remote chance that anyone came through it, I would be there.
And did you discover what moved the cover?
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It's a logical conclusion, not a quote.
Kate said Madeleine's story was unlikely, implausible and improbable.
Why?
Because she didn't think the children would cry and then go back to sleep without being soothed.
She and Gerry then report Madeleine's story to the police the following day, and to the FLO's the day after that.
Why?
Because they decided there may be a 'sinister reason' for the occurrence. As Kate says;
it is my belief there was somebody either in or trying to get into the children’s bedroom that night, and that is what disturbed them. [madeleine]
It's clear to me that she is saying that she, with hindsight, now believes Madeleine's story.
If she believes it now, then she must have decided it's no longer unlikely, implausible and improbable.
The original reason for her doubts, of course, remains unaltered. The children did go back to sleep without being soothed. Kate now appears to have demolished her original reason for doubting the story.
Thanks for that reply, even though you have called it a logical conclusion there still remains an unexplained element to it for you say "Kate said Madeleine's story was unlikely, implausible and improbable. "
No doubt you have got sources for these descriptions.
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You make it sound like it was good think the discovery was found at night. What would have been the problem if it was discovered at 8:00 AM next morning? There wouldn't be all the disturbance of the crime scene and the case may have been solved.
Someones alibi.
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Someones alibi.
New thread start to explore the What if of that, http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8999.0.
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And did you discover what moved the cover?
My husband's theory was the wind did it.
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Thanks for that reply, even though you have called it a logical conclusion there still remains an unexplained element to it for you say "Kate said Madeleine's story was unlikely, implausible and improbable. "
No doubt you have got sources for these descriptions.
'madeleine' by Kate McCann.
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'madeleine' by Kate McCann.
Was this you earliest quote using those words? "My opinion is based on the evidence. Kate described the crying as improbable, unlikely and implausible. That's because she didn't think they'd cry and then go back to sleep without being soothed. Then Madeleine disappeared and she reported it to the PJ and the FLO's. She must have changed her mind, mustn't she if she's now reporting it as if it happened? She now seems prepared to accept that they did cry and go back to sleep on their own?
In my opinion children can cry a little and nod back off in the space of 30 minutes, but if they were woken because there was an intruder in the bedroom going back to sleep really would be improbable, unlikely and implausible."
When I read quote it is your opinion not Kate's that it is "improbable, unlikely and implausible".
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Was this you earliest quote using those words? "My opinion is based on the evidence. Kate described the crying as improbable, unlikely and implausible. That's because she didn't think they'd cry and then go back to sleep without being soothed. Then Madeleine disappeared and she reported it to the PJ and the FLO's. She must have changed her mind, mustn't she if she's now reporting it as if it happened? She now seems prepared to accept that they did cry and go back to sleep on their own?
In my opinion children can cry a little and nod back off in the space of 30 minutes, but if they were woken because there was an intruder in the bedroom going back to sleep really would be improbable, unlikely and implausible."
When I read quote it is your opinion not Kate's that it is "improbable, unlikely and implausible".
You could try reading the book one day;
If
so, it was worrying, obviously, but it didn’t seem very
probable. As I’ve said, not only did they rarely stir at
all at night, but if they did it was hardly ever, and I
mean ever, before the early hours. If they had done
so on this occasion, it would mean they’d woken up,
cried for a while, calmed themselves down and fallen
asleep again – all within the space of half an hour. Or
forty-five minutes, if it had been after our last check.
Children usually need some soothing back to sleep
once they’ve woken, especially if two of them are
awake and upset at the same time, and it seemed
highly unlikely they’d have gone through all these
stages without one of them overlapping with one of
our checks. It wasn’t impossible, but it seemed
implausible.
[madeleine]
-
You could try reading the book one day;
If
so, it was worrying, obviously, but it didn’t seem very
probable. As I’ve said, not only did they rarely stir at
all at night, but if they did it was hardly ever, and I
mean ever, before the early hours. If they had done
so on this occasion, it would mean they’d woken up,
cried for a while, calmed themselves down and fallen
asleep again – all within the space of half an hour. Or
forty-five minutes, if it had been after our last check.
Children usually need some soothing back to sleep
once they’ve woken, especially if two of them are
awake and upset at the same time, and it seemed
highly unlikely they’d have gone through all these
stages without one of them overlapping with one of
our checks. It wasn’t impossible, but it seemed
implausible.
[madeleine]
The sentence "In my opinion children can cry a little and nod back off in the space of 30 minutes, but if they were woken because there was an intruder in the bedroom going back to sleep really would be improbable, unlikely and implausible." is your own opinion and understanding is it not?
Correct me if I'm wrong but you didn't produce that quote from Madeleine AFAIK.
Now that is what I believe is at odds with what Kate is saying. OK she does end up using the 3 words (improbable, unlikely and implausible) but in a completely different context. She is talking about the kids being on their own but you have said "if they were woken because there was an intruder in the bedroom" so they are not alone in your scenario. Different contexts IMO.
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It is the concept of everyone remebering the attitude of the door, as they left it, with such clarity that baffles me.
We used to position the angle of the childrens doors opening virtually exactly each night. We both knew the angle that was best for not too much and not too little light and we stuck to it.
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We used to position the angle of the childrens doors opening virtually exactly each night. We both knew the angle that was best for not too much and not too little light and we stuck to it.
Do you think you ever gave yourself a false alarm due to you forgetting to set the angle?
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The sentence "In my opinion children can cry a little and nod back off in the space of 30 minutes, but if they were woken because there was an intruder in the bedroom going back to sleep really would be improbable, unlikely and implausible." is your own opinion and understanding is it not?
Correct me if I'm wrong but you didn't produce that quote from Madeleine AFAIK.
Now that is what I believe is at odds with what Kate is saying. OK she does end up using the 3 words (improbable, unlikely and implausible) but in a completely different context. She is talking about the kids being on their own but you have said "if they were woken because there was an intruder in the bedroom" so they are not alone in your scenario. Different contexts IMO.
I have re-read my argument here and it is correct. I know what you mean you might think the children would be additionally upset if the intruder was threatening toward the children, but for some reason I felt the intruder was someone who gave the kids the comfort that they would have got from their parents had they been there.
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The sentence "In my opinion children can cry a little and nod back off in the space of 30 minutes, but if they were woken because there was an intruder in the bedroom going back to sleep really would be improbable, unlikely and implausible." is your own opinion and understanding is it not?
Correct me if I'm wrong but you didn't produce that quote from Madeleine AFAIK.
Now that is what I believe is at odds with what Kate is saying. OK she does end up using the 3 words (improbable, unlikely and implausible) but in a completely different context. She is talking about the kids being on their own but you have said "if they were woken because there was an intruder in the bedroom" so they are not alone in your scenario. Different contexts IMO.
Kate McCann tells us she believes an abductor either entered the children's bedroom or tried to on Wednesday evening.
She believes it happened because her daughter told her two children cried on Wednesday when the parents were out.
When her daughter first told her about it she didn't really believe her though. She didn't believe that her children would go back to sleep without being soothed.
So why did she go from finding it highly unlikely to believing it happened? What changed? Nothing changed is the answer. If it was unlikely before it's still unlikely for the very same reasons.
it didn’t seem very probable. As I’ve said, not only did they rarely stir at all at night, but if they did it was hardly ever, and I mean ever, before the early hours. If they had done so on this occasion, it would mean they’d woken up, cried for a while, calmed themselves down and fallen asleep again – all within the space of half an hour. Or
forty-five minutes, if it had been after our last check. Children usually need some soothing back to sleep once they’ve woken, especially if two of them are awake and upset at the same time, and it seemed highly unlikely they’d have gone through all these stages without one of them overlapping with one of our checks. It wasn’t impossible, but it seemed implausible. [madeleine]
As I said, in my opinion children can nod off again after crying a little bit, but not if they woke up to find an intruder standing over them! That is definitely highly unlikely.
it is my belief there was somebody either in or trying to get into the children’s bedroom that night, and that is what disturbed them. [madeleine]
-
Kate McCann tells us she believes an abductor either entered the children's bedroom or tried to on Wednesday evening.
She believes it happened because her daughter told her two children cried on Wednesday when the parents were out.
When her daughter first told her about it she didn't really believe her though. She didn't believe that her children would go back to sleep without being soothed.
So why did she go from finding it highly unlikely to believing it happened? What changed? Nothing changed is the answer. If it was unlikely before it's still unlikely for the very same reasons.
it didn’t seem very probable. As I’ve said, not only did they rarely stir at all at night, but if they did it was hardly ever, and I mean ever, before the early hours. If they had done so on this occasion, it would mean they’d woken up, cried for a while, calmed themselves down and fallen asleep again – all within the space of half an hour. Or
forty-five minutes, if it had been after our last check. Children usually need some soothing back to sleep once they’ve woken, especially if two of them are awake and upset at the same time, and it seemed highly unlikely they’d have gone through all these stages without one of them overlapping with one of our checks. It wasn’t impossible, but it seemed implausible. [madeleine]
As I said, in my opinion children can nod off again after crying a little bit, but not if they woke up to find an intruder standing over them! That is definitely highly unlikely.
it is my belief there was somebody either in or trying to get into the children’s bedroom that night, and that is what disturbed them. [madeleine]
Have you considered a caring couple passing by heard the kids crying and went in through the patio doors and put the kids back to bed (comforted them). That was what was reported wasn't it? A couple went into the apartment that night to comfort the kids. Do you recall that report? The strange thing was that someone saw that but we never get to know who.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/400796/Mystery-couple-seen-going-into-McCanns-flat-on-night-before-sobbing-Madeleine-disappeared
Surely what Kate thinks and that report are linked.
-
Have you considered a caring couple passing by heard the kids crying and went in through the patio doors and put the kids back to bed (comforted them). That was what was reported wasn't it? A couple went into the apartment that night to comfort the kids. Do you recall that report? The strange thing was that someone saw that but we never get to know who.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/400796/Mystery-couple-seen-going-into-McCanns-flat-on-night-before-sobbing-Madeleine-disappeared
Surely what Kate thinks and that report are linked.
The night before Madeleine disappeared, Rachel was in the next door apartment all evening. If a couple could hear the kids crying from as far away as down in the street which ran up the side of the apartment block, then surely she would have heard them from right next door?
Re the article: Mrs Fenn didn't hear anyone crying on the 2nd May. It was on 1st May - and then she only heard ONE child crying.
IMO this couple don't exist.
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Have you considered a caring couple passing by heard the kids crying and went in through the patio doors and put the kids back to bed (comforted them). That was what was reported wasn't it? A couple went into the apartment that night to comfort the kids. Do you recall that report? The strange thing was that someone saw that but we never get to know who.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/400796/Mystery-couple-seen-going-into-McCanns-flat-on-night-before-sobbing-Madeleine-disappeared
Surely what Kate thinks and that report are linked.
You may be prepared to believe such rubbish, but not me. The idea that two witnesses saw a couple going into 5A but told no-one until tracked down by SY years later is most unlikely. So is the idea that SY then leaked this information.
-
I believe this couple abducted Maddie.
They witnessed her being dumped in the creche & then left to fend for herself every night & decided they could do a better job of looking after her.
-
You may be prepared to believe such rubbish, but not me. The idea that two witnesses saw a couple going into 5A but told no-one until tracked down by SY years later is most unlikely. So is the idea that SY then leaked this information.
You would have no idea what information the PJ are sitting on. Didn't it say the reporter went into the apartment of the people who saw the middle aged couple going into the apartment on Wednesday night. There is nothing about that, that is impossible IMO.
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I believe this couple abducted Maddie.
They witnessed her being dumped in the creche & then left to fend for herself every night & decided they could do a better job of looking after her.
This is a possibility.
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I believe this couple abducted Maddie.
They witnessed her being dumped in the creche & then left to fend for herself every night & decided they could do a better job of looking after her.
But why only her? Were the twins not exactly in the same position and in need of rescue?
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You would have no idea what information the PJ are sitting on. Didn't it say the reporter went into the apartment of the people who saw the middle aged couple going into the apartment on Wednesday night. There is nothing about that, that is impossible IMO.
We know the categories of information which the PJ didn't release. If the information is in the Crimestoppers file, then LP should have highlighted it and interviewed the witnesses.
You are asking me (bolded bit) what the article said? If it said what you are suggesting, give a cite, don't ask me.
I take it you do believe SY leaked.
-
We know the categories of information which the PJ didn't release. If the information is in the Crimestoppers file, then LP should have highlighted it and interviewed the witnesses.
You are asking me (bolded bit) what the article said? If it said what you are suggesting, give a cite, don't ask me.
I take it you do believe SY leaked.
I thought it would be pointless citing from the article for you have already called it rubbish
"The Sunday Express has visited the couple’s holiday apartment, which looks over the tapas bar. From its balcony you can see directly into the garden of apartment 5a.
The woman said: “We have one of the best views of the whole block. We are sure of the timings. If we had seen anyone we would have remembered."
This was on Wednesday and she was missing on Thursday. There maybe no connection or is there? But Kate would not have known about this but put two and two together and come up with the idea of someone comforting her kids off to sleep, from what Madeleine had said the next morning.
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The night before Madeleine disappeared, Rachel was in the next door apartment all evening. If a couple could hear the kids crying from as far away as down in the street which ran up the side of the apartment block, then surely she would have heard them from right next door?
Re the article: Mrs Fenn didn't hear anyone crying on the 2nd May. It was on 1st May - and then she only heard ONE child crying.
IMO this couple don't exist.
They might have messed up on the day Pamela Fenn heard the crying. Rachael was sick on the Wednesday so could have dosed off at the crucial time. There are several possibilities of which we can't be certain.
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You may be prepared to believe such rubbish, but not me. The idea that two witnesses saw a couple going into 5A but told no-one until tracked down by SY years later is most unlikely. So is the idea that SY then leaked this information.
From reading the article they are referring to the Moyes. The Express say Pamela Fenn heard crying on 2 May so they still make glaring errors.
The woman said in her statement: “I stood on the balcony at about 9.15 with a whisky.
“I saw people eating at the tapas bar and children in the play area. We went to bed at 10pm-ish. We were woken up by our bell ringing at 11.30pm. It was a friend of the McCanns, saying that a little girl had been abducted. The friend asked if we had a computer so they could get the media involved in the search.
“Two police were on the corner of our block, one lady said that off-duty police had come and were searching. We did see single men on mobiles while we were out who could have been police.”
The couple took part in the search for Madeleine and then returned to their apartment.
The woman’s statement continues: “We walked back up towards our apartment, a group had gathered on the corner. The McCanns were in bits, he was crying on the shoulder of a friend. She was screaming: ‘The f*****g b......s have taken her’. Finally, at around 4am, we said: ‘Is it OK if we go to bed?’ We directed this comment towards a man in a white shirt and jeans, who seemed to be authoritative.”
At the couple’s home here, two Yard officers questioned them separately for three hours and got them to sign lengthy statements. They further interviewed them this year to double check their information.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/400796/Mystery-couple-seen-going-into-McCanns-flat-on-night-before-sobbing-Madeleine-disappeared
WED 2 May was the night Gerry said David Payne had checked on the children.
On Wednesday night, 2 May 2007, as well as he and his wife, he thinks that David Payne also went to his apartment to confirm that his children were well, not having reported to him any abnormal situation with the children.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
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I thought it would be pointless citing from the article for you have already called it rubbish
"The Sunday Express has visited the couple’s holiday apartment, which looks over the tapas bar. From its balcony you can see directly into the garden of apartment 5a.
The woman said: “We have one of the best views of the whole block. We are sure of the timings. If we had seen anyone we would have remembered."
This was on Wednesday and she was missing on Thursday. There maybe no connection or is there? But Kate would not have known about this but put two and two together and come up with the idea of someone comforting her kids off to sleep, from what Madeleine had said the next morning.
The apartment they are referring to belongs to the Moyes, above Mrs Fenn's apartment. The aren't the couple who allegedly went into 5A, nor are they the witnesses who said they saw the couple going into 5A. They were never interviewed during the first investigation, but have been keen to talk about it since;
https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/radio-stoke-speak-to-susan-moyes/
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The apartment they are referring to belongs to the Moyes, above Mrs Fenn's apartment. The aren't the couple who allegedly went into 5A, nor are they the witnesses who said they saw the couple going into 5A. They were never interviewed during the first investigation, but have been keen to talk about it since;
https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/radio-stoke-speak-to-susan-moyes/
I wonder who the 'she' was who came to Mrs Moyes door ?
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I wonder who the 'she' was who came to Mrs Moyes door ?
No idea. Unlikely to have been Kate or Fiona, which would leave Rachel or Jane.
Unless it was one of the men in the group with a female OC employee.
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No idea. Unlikely to have been Kate or Fiona, which would leave Rachel or Jane.
Unless it was one of the men in the group with a female OC employee.
Would she then have said a couple came to my door ? Do Jane or Rachel say in any of their statements that they informed others of Madeleine's disappearance by going door to door ?
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Would she then have said a couple came to my door ? Do Jane or Rachel say in any of their statements that they informed others of Madeleine's disappearance by going door to door ?
No idea. It seems feasible that various members of the group plus members of OC staff went knocking.
Jes / Bridget:
They went to bed about 2300hrs but were waken about 0100hrs by a knock at the door. On answering the door they spoke with the resort manager and a person they knew was a member of the group but they only knew him as Matthew. It was then they found out that Madeleine was missing.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY_BRIGET.htm
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If Matt's doing the round of the neighbours, it's not likely that Rachael would be as well, as that would leave their child alone
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I wonder who the 'she' was who came to Mrs Moyes door ?
And why she knocked at 11.30 pm?
At some point before the PJ left, a retired British couple in a nearby apartment lent him their computer and he sent an email to Sky News alerting them to the abduction of our daughter, using an address listed on their website. [madeleine]
I think that should say 'at some point before the PJ arrived' shouldn't it? What a difference one word can make.
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And why she knocked at 11.30 pm?
At some point before the PJ left, a retired British couple in a nearby apartment lent him their computer and he sent an email to Sky News alerting them to the abduction of our daughter, using an address listed on their website. [madeleine]
I think that should say 'at some point before the PJ arrived' shouldn't it? What a difference one word can make.
It sounds like they are talking about different people.
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It sounds like they are talking about different people.
No. In one of the articles the Moyes say they were asked for a computer.
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Have you considered a caring couple passing by heard the kids crying and went in through the patio doors and put the kids back to bed (comforted them). That was what was reported wasn't it? A couple went into the apartment that night to comfort the kids. Do you recall that report? The strange thing was that someone saw that but we never get to know who.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/400796/Mystery-couple-seen-going-into-McCanns-flat-on-night-before-sobbing-Madeleine-disappeared
Surely what Kate thinks and that report are linked.
Soz, Rob, but I think that is unlikely. Most people have heard children crying and generally they do not interfere. Neither do most law abiding people go into other peoples homes uninvited.
IMO, the only place that any sound could possibly be heard from would be on the street outside the lounge .... and only then if the window was open. It is doubtful that anyone would be able to know for sure which flat any sound came from ... The Mccanns, Mrs Fenns, or even the Moyes.
I honestly dont think anyone would pay attention and certainly not interfere. IMHO
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Soz, Rob, but I think that is unlikely. Most people have heard children crying and generally they do not interfere. Neither do most law abiding people go into other peoples homes uninvited.
IMO, the only place that any sound could possibly be heard from would be on the street outside the lounge .... and only then if the window was open. It is doubtful that anyone would be able to know for sure which flat any sound came from ... The Mccanns, Mrs Fenns, or even the Moyes.
I honestly dont think anyone would pay attention and certainly not interfere. IMHO
Maybe the couple walked through the car park and clearly identified the crying as coming from the bedroom of 5a. All they had to do then was walk around the corner and up the steps to the patio to check out what was wrong. The one element which is missing however is a report to staff.
If you found children alone and distraught wouldn't you report it to the management?
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Maybe the couple walked through the car park and clearly identified the crying as coming from the bedroom of 5a. All they had to do then was walk around the corner and up the steps to the patio to check out what was wrong. The one element which is missing however is a report to staff.
If you found children alone and distraught wouldn't you report it to the management?
The only thing is John, the sound had to transmit via a closed window with shutters and (thin) curtain, then cross quite a distance from the route 'car park entrance to the centre of the building where the walled pathway started. The closest distance on that walk is about 40 feet and that for a muted sound that has come out of a closed brick building seems rather a long way for it to travel IMO.
I find it difficult to believe anyone would just let themselves in. Report it to the management, yes maybe. IMO
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There is a good chance they did report it to management. It was reported years ago that Silvia Batista contacted the McCanns on the Thursday and offered them free baby sitting service and even that was turned down. I don't think there is any direct reports of this interview with Silvia on the internet but last year there were still traces of discussion about the interview. Do you recall that? It was a matter of the right combination of her name into Google to get a result.
Here is a direct quote from the article and the paper or news organisation involved with the interview.
"The Technical Services Director of the Ocean Club resort, Silvia Batista, affirmed that the SAME NIGHT on which Madeleine disappeared, she IN PERSON offered child-minding services "because the hotel is responsible for its clients' children, but THEY REJECTED that" Madeleine was seen for the last time on the 3rd of May when she was sleeping next to her siblings in a rented room in a hotel in Praia da Luz, in the south of Portugal.
The parents of the little girl are being questioned for having left her alone in that room in order to go to eat with some friends.
According to the director of the hotel, "every month registries of robberies in the area are kept, and we therefore advise the service of a child-minder", but EVEN KNOWING THIS, Maddie's parents DID NOT ACCEPT it.
Batista confirmed in an interview with the website Globo.com that the hotel has been working from the start with the Police to find the little girl. The director added that the room used by the McCann family was closed the first two months, then was opened for 15 days, but was then closed once again.
Also, the director of the resort pointed out that in the area there are "many inquisitive people, but they do not disrupt the routine of the place.
"We did not bear the blame for the disappearance of the little girl, it couldn't be said whose fault it was, but certainly not ours", assured the director and indicated that "THE PARENTS OF THE GIRL THAT NIGHT WERE VERY UNCONCERNED", and there was no reason they should not have requested the service of a child-minder."
This whole quote is from https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t12869p400-the-possible-dry-run-by-the-alleged-abductor-that-possibly-caused-the-alleged-crying-incident
If I put the phrase "she IN PERSON offered child-minding services "because the hotel is responsible for its clients' children, but THEY REJECTED that"" into Goole I got 11 sites which discussed the exact same phrase. but none apparently from "globo.com"
On the cached version of the McCann files "Child minding services rejected by McCanns on 03 May 2007 (link)
Infobae.com translation:
The search for a new personality in the desperate search of the small British four-year-old is complicating even more the McCanns' situation.
The Technical Services Director of the Ocean Club resort, Silvia Batista, affirmed that the same night on which Madeleine disappeared, she in person offered child-minding services "because the hotel is responsible for its clients' children, but they rejected that". Madeleine was seen for the last time on the 3rd of May when she was sleeping next to her siblings in a rented room in a hotel in Praia da Luz, in the south of Portugal. The parents of the little girl are being questioned for having left her alone in that room in order to go to eat with some friends.
According to the director of the hotel, "every month registries of robberies in the area are kept, and we therefore advise the service of a child-minder", but even knowing this, Maddie's parents did not accept it. Batista confirmed in an interview with the website Globo.com that the hotel has been working from the start with the Police to find the little girl. The director added that the room used by the McCann family was closed the first two months, then was opened for 15 days, but was then closed once again. Also, the director of the resort pointed out that in the area there are "many inquisitive people, but they do not disrupt the routine of the place.
"We did not bear the blame for the disappearance of the little girl, it couldn't be said whose fault it was, but certainly not ours", assured the director and indicated that "the parents of the girl that night were very unconcerned", and there was no reason they should not have requested the service of a child-minder."
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:TQiKt6ZMI3YJ:www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id53.htm+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=nz
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The only thing is John, the sound had to transmit via a closed window with shutters and (thin) curtain, then cross quite a distance from the route 'car park entrance to the centre of the building where the walled pathway started. The closest distance on that walk is about 40 feet and that for a muted sound that has come out of a closed brick building seems rather a long way for it to travel IMO.
I find it difficult to believe anyone would just let themselves in. Report it to the management, yes maybe. IMO
This concerned couple could have done their own listening check.
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There was a comment I noticed in J Wilkins statement about the night of the 2nd, that may be relevant:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS.htm
On Wednesday, 2nd May, I could see it was raining and the tennis lesson was postponed. It was re-scheduled for 2:30 pm. I found this out at a later date and missed the lesson. I arrived about five (5) minutes before the end and realized this fact. I saw the usual people at the tennis lesson. I then went back to my apartment.
That evening myself and my partner attended the 'Tapas' restaurant which is part of the hotel complex at the swimming pool. We sat down to eat at 7:30 pm. After about forty five (45) minutes Jerry appeared as did one of his friends. I believe it was Russell. They sat at the next table. We naturally engaged in conversation about everyday things. We spoke about childcare. That night my family were using the creche's facility. We found out that the group of families were occupying ground floor flats near the swimming pool and they were leaving the children by themselves in order for them to go to the restaurant in the evenings. They would then go regularly to check the children who would be asleep.
I found out that Jerry was a cardiologist in a Hospital. At this time his wife was putting the children to bed. We received a call from the creche informing that our son was awake. My partner left first and I followed shortly afterwards. The amount of time I spent with Jerry was about fifteen (15) to twenty (20) minutes we remained in the restaurant. By the time we left, Jerry was with about seven other people. I picked up my daughter from the creche and then returned to the apartment.
====
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There is a good chance they did report it to management. It was reported years ago that Silvia Batista contacted the McCanns on the Thursday and offered them free baby sitting service and even that was turned down. I don't think there is any direct reports of this interview with Silvia on the internet but last year there were still traces of discussion about the interview. Do you recall that? It was a matter of the right combination of her name into Google to get a result.
Snip
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:TQiKt6ZMI3YJ:www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id53.htm+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=nz
We have discussed this before Rob. This is a description by Silvia of what she did on 3rd May. I think if she had met or spoken to the McCanns on that day - she would have said so in her statement.
Quote
On the 03/05/2007 she started working by 09H30, having entered the Ocean Club through the area of the Club, having walked through the swimming pool area and later having checked the other swimming pools.
At about 13:00 she went to Lagos, with her husband, Mr. Joao Carlos Silva Batista and came back at about 14H30 .
At about18H00 she left the resort and only came back when the circumstances outlined above occurred.
During the day 03/05/2007 she did not detect anything unusual or different.
No strange situation was reported to her.
After the events and in conversation with other employees and heads of the Ocean Club, nothing was reported or commented concerning odd situations, such as the presence of strangers close to the resort.
She states that the Ocean Club Resort has no system of video surveillance.
Ratifies and will sign. ..........................
Unquote
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There was a comment I noticed in J Wilkins statement about the night of the 2nd, that may be relevant:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS.htm
On Wednesday, 2nd May, I could see it was raining and the tennis lesson was postponed. It was re-scheduled for 2:30 pm. I found this out at a later date and missed the lesson. I arrived about five (5) minutes before the end and realized this fact. I saw the usual people at the tennis lesson. I then went back to my apartment.
That evening myself and my partner attended the 'Tapas' restaurant which is part of the hotel complex at the swimming pool. We sat down to eat at 7:30 pm. After about forty five (45) minutes Jerry appeared as did one of his friends. I believe it was Russell. They sat at the next table. We naturally engaged in conversation about everyday things. We spoke about childcare. That night my family were using the creche's facility. We found out that the group of families were occupying ground floor flats near the swimming pool and they were leaving the children by themselves in order for them to go to the restaurant in the evenings. They would then go regularly to check the children who would be asleep.
I found out that Jerry was a cardiologist in a Hospital. At this time his wife was putting the children to bed. We received a call from the creche informing that our son was awake. My partner left first and I followed shortly afterwards. The amount of time I spent with Jerry was about fifteen (15) to twenty (20) minutes we remained in the restaurant. By the time we left, Jerry was with about seven other people. I picked up my daughter from the creche and then returned to the apartment.
====
No-one was late for dinner on 2nd, it seems. All present when Jes left at 8.30-35. Kate doesn't mention Gerry leaving for dinner first that evening;
After that it was the usual routine: tea with the children, playtime, bathtime, milk, stories, kids’ bedtime, get ready,Tapas at 8.30pm [madeleine]
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Benice
"Quote
On the 03/05/2007 she started working by 09H30, having entered the Ocean Club through the area of the Club, having walked through the swimming pool area and later having checked the other swimming pools.
At about 13:00 she went to Lagos, with her husband, Mr. Joao Carlos Silva Batista and came back at about 14H30 ."
Let's look at what she did then. "On the 03/05/2007 she started working by 09H30, having entered the Ocean Club through the area of the Club, having walked through the swimming pool area and later having checked the other swimming pools." OK that might take 15 minutes, so that is 09H45 and what does she do between then and 13H00? There seems to be plenty of unaccounted for time on Thursday IMO to fit in a phone call to the McCanns IMO.
In the article it says "affirmed that the SAME NIGHT on which Madeleine disappeared" What does "same night" does that include the afternoon or the evening?
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No-one was late for dinner on 2nd, it seems. All present when Jes left at 8.30-35. Kate doesn't mention Gerry leaving for dinner first that evening;
After that it was the usual routine: tea with the children, playtime, bathtime, milk, stories, kids’ bedtime, get ready,Tapas at 8.30pm [madeleine]
If gerry is with 7 other people that makes 8 - so one is missing (not all present). Kate said she was at Tapas at 8:30 and that fits in with Jez's timeline of leaving around 8:30.
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Maybe the couple walked through the car park and clearly identified the crying as coming from the bedroom of 5a. All they had to do then was walk around the corner and up the steps to the patio to check out what was wrong. The one element which is missing however is a report to staff.
If you found children alone and distraught wouldn't you report it to the management?
Would this couple have known that the children were alone ?
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Benice
"Quote
On the 03/05/2007 she started working by 09H30, having entered the Ocean Club through the area of the Club, having walked through the swimming pool area and later having checked the other swimming pools.
At about 13:00 she went to Lagos, with her husband, Mr. Joao Carlos Silva Batista and came back at about 14H30 ."
Let's look at what she did then. "On the 03/05/2007 she started working by 09H30, having entered the Ocean Club through the area of the Club, having walked through the swimming pool area and later having checked the other swimming pools." OK that might take 15 minutes, so that is 09H45 and what does she do between then and 13H00? There seems to be plenty of unaccounted for time on Thursday IMO to fit in a phone call to the McCanns IMO.
I find it impossible to believe that if Sylvia had had any contact at all with the McCanns on the 3rd May she could have either (a) forgotten about it or (b) decided not to mention it in her statement. IMO - After what happened she would have reported any contact which had occurred with them on that particular day (no matter how small) - as a matter of priority. It would be unnatural not to do so IMO.
AIMHO
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Would this couple have known that the children were alone ?
It is possible that they saw the McCanns at the Tapas restaurant isn't it?
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It is possible that they saw the McCanns at the Tapas restaurant isn't it?
It is, but still needn't mean that the children were alone. McCanns could have employed a babysitter, who was desperately trying to calm them down.
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It is, but still needn't mean that the children were alone. McCanns could have employed a babysitter, who was desperately trying to calm them down.
Knock on the door and see if there is an answer.
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If gerry is with 7 other people that makes 8 - so one is missing (not all present). Kate said she was at Tapas at 8:30 and that fits in with Jez's timeline of leaving around 8:30.
Rachael says she didn't go to dinner on Wednesday evening.
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Knock on the door and see if there is an answer.
Hindsight. If I had been the people involved, my response would have been " I hope those bloody kids shut up soon"
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Rachael says she didn't go to dinner on Wednesday evening.
Was it all present except for Rachael then? OK that is fine by me.
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Was it all present except for Rachael then? OK that is fine by me.
Unclear. JW does not mention KMcC arriving. KMcC does not mention GMcC leaving first.
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Soz, Rob, but I think that is unlikely. Most people have heard children crying and generally they do not interfere. Neither do most law abiding people go into other peoples homes uninvited.
IMO, the only place that any sound could possibly be heard from would be on the street outside the lounge .... and only then if the window was open. It is doubtful that anyone would be able to know for sure which flat any sound came from ... The Mccanns, Mrs Fenns, or even the Moyes.
I honestly dont think anyone would pay attention and certainly not interfere. IMHO
I'm sure I've posted on this topic on one of the Fenn threads and will add a link if and when I find it again.
From personal experience, the source of sound can be very deceptive in an apartment block. On one occasion, I was woken up by what was clearly a domestic row that was escalating. I was on the verge of calling the police, but then I decided that that would be useless unless I could pinpoint where the source was actually coming from. I got up and went up and down, following my sense of where it appeared to be coming from, and eventually gave up. I later discovered that it came from nearby, but not in any of the places that I'd checked by listening at doors.
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I'm sure I've posted on this topic on one of the Fenn threads and will add a link if and when I find it again.
From personal experience, the source of sound can be very deceptive in an apartment block. On one occasion, I was woken up by what was clearly a domestic row that was escalating. I was on the verge of calling the police, but then I decided that that would be useless unless I could pinpoint where the source was actually coming from. I got up and went up and down, following my sense of where it appeared to be coming from, and eventually gave up. I later discovered that it came from nearby, but not in any of the places that I'd checked by listening at doors.
Yes I would agree with that Carana. I too have had that experience thinking a noise was coming from one place when It wasn't.
It doesn't change the fact that Kate says Maddie had brought this to her attention, and the children did wake up through the night on occasion. It wouldn't be wrong for Mrs Fenn to identify the McCann children bcauase she claimed it stopped when the parents came home as she heard the patio door being opened /closed. That makes a distinct sound and it came from below , was there more than one apartment below Mrs Fenn who had children?
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Yes I would agree with that Carana. I too have had that experience thinking a noise was coming from one place when It wasn't.
It doesn't change the fact that Kate says Maddie had brought this to her attention, and the children did wake up through the night on occasion. It wouldn't be wrong for Mrs Fenn to identify the McCann children bcauase she claimed it stopped when the parents came home as she heard the patio door being opened /closed. That makes a distinct sound and it came from below , was there more than one apartment below Mrs Fenn who had children?
Yes, but whose patio doors did she hear opening and closing? The closing of a patio door is a sound same as crying is a sound. If the direction of the crying cant be definitely recognised, neither can the direction of the patio door sound be recognised.
So back to square one. Which child was crying? Had it been Madeleine crying loudly then IMO all three would havebeen crying. Same with the twins, if one crying loudly all three would have been IMO.
It seems more likely that one of the other children in the block, a solitary child, was crying.
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How is it more likely? Maddy had a star chart for her non-sleeping habits so of course it make sense that she awoke and couldn't find her parents so started crying and shouting for her Daddy as witness Pamela Fenn said!
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JIVQbNAcORw/VdZzMLBezNI/AAAAAAAAAUA/wa8NwGzRDzY/w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu/Madeleine%2Bsleeping%2Bchart.jpg)
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Unclear. JW does not mention KMcC arriving. KMcC does not mention GMcC leaving first.
Do they have to? It is only Wednesday night!
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Yes, but whose patio doors did she hear opening and closing? The closing of a patio door is a sound same as crying is a sound. If the direction of the crying cant be definitely recognised, neither can the direction of the patio door sound be recognised.
So back to square one. Which child was crying? Had it been Madeleine crying loudly then IMO all three would havebeen crying. Same with the twins, if one crying loudly all three would have been IMO.
It seems more likely that one of the other children in the block, a solitary child, was crying.
The twins slept through the commotion on the night of the 3rd and you appear to believe that that was natural. Couldn't that also have happened again on the 1st and if not do you mind explaining why not ?
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The twins slept through the commotion on the night of the 3rd and you appear to believe that that was natural. Couldn't that also have happened again on the 1st and if not do you mind explaining why not ?
Even I think it could be natural for when my kids were young I was at times surprised how the kids slept through noise.
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How is it more likely? Maddy had a star chart for her non-sleeping habits so of course it make sense that she awoke and couldn't find her parents so started crying and shouting for her Daddy as witness Pamela Fenn said!
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JIVQbNAcORw/VdZzMLBezNI/AAAAAAAAAUA/wa8NwGzRDzY/w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu/Madeleine%2Bsleeping%2Bchart.jpg)
A child with a history of getting out of her bed just happens to disappear?
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Even I think it could be natural for when my kids were young I was at times surprised how the kids slept through noise.
Just imaging the chaos and the noises which must have erupted in that apartment immediately following the alert that Madeleine had gone and the twins slept through it all even when lifted out of their cots.
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Here is an actual test of how to wake kids "Shocking...most kids sleep through regular smoke alarms" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDzTOk8ZZB4 I've never tested this myself but I know when my job depended on answering a phone. I was awake even part way through the first ring.
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Just imaging the chaos and the noises which must have erupted in that apartment immediately following the alert that Madeleine had gone and the twins slept through it all even when lifted out of their cots.
The people who were there and who knew the children found it strange. That is a fact which no amount of denial by posters who weren't there and who didn't know the children can change.
I placed the palms of my hands on their backs to check for chest movement, basically, for some sign of life. [madeleine]
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Here is an actual test of how to wake kids "Shocking...most kids sleep through regular smoke alarms" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDzTOk8ZZB4 I've never tested this myself but I know when my job depended on answering a phone. I was awake even part way through the first ring.
When questioned if the twins woke while the apartment was being searched, he replies negatively. When they were taken to another apartment he does not know if they woke as he did not take them. When asked, he says that this was not normal, and can find no reason for it happening. He still thought at this moment that the twins might have been drugged by the possible abductor, even if he only mentioned this to the Police several days later. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm
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When questioned if the twins woke while the apartment was being searched, he replies negatively. When they were taken to another apartment he does not know if they woke as he did not take them. When asked, he says that this was not normal, and can find no reason for it happening. He still thought at this moment that the twins might have been drugged by the possible abductor, even if he only mentioned this to the Police several days later. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm
They are mere opinions on Gerry's part. It is documented that the McCanns asked about the use of sedatives, in plenty of time to run toxicology tests. Were his requests not passed on?
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They are mere opinions on Gerry's part. It is documented that the McCanns asked about the use of sedatives, in plenty of time to run toxicology tests. Were his requests not passed on?
Would you care to support your assertion with a cite?
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Would you care to support your assertion with a cite?
It is in the Liaison officer statements. It has been cited many times.
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"In relation to the above I would like to mention that at approximately 20.00 on the 5th May, I arrived at the McCann apartment with other family communications officers. We were asked several times during this meeting about questions that Gerald and Kate would like to have followed up and responded to by the PJ.
I remember that during the meetings, Kate revealed that Madeleine had spoken with her in the morning of her disappearance and said that she remembered the twins had cried during the night and that she wanted to know why neither her mother or father had appeared. Kate asked herself whether this fact could have any relation with Madeleine’s disappearance.
Gerry and Kate also questioned whether there was any suggestion that pointed to the use of drugs to facilitate Madeleine's abduction." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JIM_McGARVEY.htm
Does that satisfy you?
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"OFFICIAL INQUIRY FILES and DOCUMENTS
STEPHEN MARKLEY LIAISON 25 APRIL 08
Sitemap
This information belongs to the Ministério Público in Portimão, Portugal.
It was released to the public on 4 August 2008 in accordance with Portuguese Law
LEICESTERSHIRE POLICE FORCE
09 to 10 Witness statement of Stephen Markley (Police Inspector) 2008.04.25
TRANSLATIONS BY INES
05-Cartas Rogatorias Vol V Pages 9 - 10
cr5_9
cr5_10
Statement by: Stephen Markley
Occupation: Police Officer
This statement (composed of 2 pages and signed by me) is true and in accordance with my understanding.
Date: 25th April 2008
Signature____________________________________________________
I am police officer Markley of the Leicestershire Police currently working in the criminal unit.
In 2007 and in relation to the Portuguese investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, I was detached to Portugal in the role of family communication officer.
According to the Portuguese PJ Letter of Request, I was asked to respond to the following question:
Was there anything done or said by Kate or Gerry McCann in your presence or during your various meetings that could raise any suspicion that they had any knowledge about what could have happened to Madeleine, beyond the circumstances described to the Portuguese investigators?
My reply to the question was: No.
However, in relation to the above, I would like to add the following: At about 20.00 on Saturday 5th May 2007, I arrived at the apartment where Kate and Gerry were staying, with other officers. During the meeting Gerald and Kate had a number of questions to which they wanted follow up and responses from the PJ.
"One of these questions was that they wanted the PJ to be aware of was Madeleine's revelation about Wednesday night, when she said that she was left alone during the night. She told Kate and Gerry that she remembered the twins crying and that she wanted to know why neither her mother nor her father had gone to the room to see what was happening.
They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction.
This statement was made by me and is truthful in accordance with my understanding." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN_MARKLEY.htm
So that is two Liaison officers who confirmed this.
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When questioned if the twins woke while the apartment was being searched, he replies negatively. When they were taken to another apartment he does not know if they woke as he did not take them. When asked, he says that this was not normal, and can find no reason for it happening. He still thought at this moment that the twins might have been drugged by the possible abductor, even if he only mentioned this to the Police several days later. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm
At a certain time, after the arrival of the PJ elements, the parents removed the twins
from the beds in which they were still sleeping and took them to the first floor flat.
At the request of Kate she (the witness) to remove their puppets drink and a blanket that she took to the first floor flat.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm
Kate says 'we' carried the twins, but seems to have given one to Fiona and still have one left. Is that the Royal 'we' she is using?
we carried a sleepy Sean and Amelie into their sitting room. But I needed to keep them close to me. I lowered myself down on to the couch with Fiona. She took a twin from me and we both sat there hugging my children [madeleine]
Kate gives the impression she was in the Payne's apartment, but not according to Emma Knight;
Quite a bit later that night I remember the police asking everyone to leave the apartment. I received a call from John informing me that he had arranged for another apartment for the McCanns. I went to reception and helped Lyndsey to move the two cots to the new apartment
The McCanns went to the new apartment and I remember seeing Kate and Mrs Payne seated on the sofa, each holding one of the twins.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
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"In relation to the above I would like to mention that at approximately 20.00 on the 5th May, I arrived at the McCann apartment with other family communications officers. We were asked several times during this meeting about questions that Gerald and Kate would like to have followed up and responded to by the PJ.
I remember that during the meetings, Kate revealed that Madeleine had spoken with her in the morning of her disappearance and said that she remembered the twins had cried during the night and that she wanted to know why neither her mother or father had appeared. Kate asked herself whether this fact could have any relation with Madeleine’s disappearance.
Gerry and Kate also questioned whether there was any suggestion that pointed to the use of drugs to facilitate Madeleine's abduction." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JIM_McGARVEY.htm
Does that satisfy you?
Another contradiction but maybe it's a translation error.
But
"She reports only one episode where, on the morning of Thursday May 3rd, Madeleine asked the interviewee why she had not come to look in the bedroom when the twins were crying."
The interviewee states that she had heard nothing and had therefore not gone into the bedroom. She thought her daughter's comment strange because it was the first time she had talked about it. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm
Kate slept in that bedroom that night. Why was this not declared on 4 May?
Here's the known version by Gerry on 10 May:
The day MADELEINE disappeared, Thursday, 3 May 2007, they all woke up at the same time between 07H30 and 08H00. While they were taking breakfast MADELEINE addressed the mother and asked her ?why didn't you come last night when Sean and I were crying??. That he thought this comment very strange given that MADELEINE had never had this kind of talk [had never spoken like this] and, the night before, they had maintained the same system of checking on the children, not having detected anything abnormal. When he questioned her about the comment, she left [withdrew herself] without any explanation.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
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Another contradiction but maybe it's a translation error.
But
"She reports only one episode where, on the morning of Thursday May 3rd, Madeleine asked the interviewee why she had not come to look in the bedroom when the twins were crying."
The interviewee states that she had heard nothing and had therefore not gone into the bedroom. She thought her daughter's comment strange because it was the first time she had talked about it. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm
Kate slept in that bedroom that night. Why was this not declared on 4 May?
Here's the known version by Gerry on 10 May:
The day MADELEINE disappeared, Thursday, 3 May 2007, they all woke up at the same time between 07H30 and 08H00. While they were taking breakfast MADELEINE addressed the mother and asked her ?why didn't you come last night when Sean and I were crying??. That he thought this comment very strange given that MADELEINE had never had this kind of talk [had never spoken like this] and, the night before, they had maintained the same system of checking on the children, not having detected anything abnormal. When he questioned her about the comment, she left [withdrew herself] without any explanation.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Quite likely a misunderstanding.
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The twins slept through the commotion on the night of the 3rd and you appear to believe that that was natural. Couldn't that also have happened again on the 1st and if not do you mind explaining why not ?
Every child is different
BUT, if you look back on my posts, you will see that I have alawys wondered if something was put in their evening meal at the tapas restaurant. A double dose for Madeleine and a half dose for each of the twins. Madeleine was so tired that night that she had to be carried home !
.... and they were all too tired to go out for their usual pre bed-play on the swings and climbing frames etc with their friends.
I personally think from the 'evidence' that they were all drugged/sedated at tea time, but I am only speculating and know that i could be incorrect
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"OFFICIAL INQUIRY FILES and DOCUMENTS
STEPHEN MARKLEY LIAISON 25 APRIL 08
Sitemap
This information belongs to the Ministério Público in Portimão, Portugal.
It was released to the public on 4 August 2008 in accordance with Portuguese Law
LEICESTERSHIRE POLICE FORCE
09 to 10 Witness statement of Stephen Markley (Police Inspector) 2008.04.25
TRANSLATIONS BY INES
05-Cartas Rogatorias Vol V Pages 9 - 10
cr5_9
cr5_10
Statement by: Stephen Markley
Occupation: Police Officer
This statement (composed of 2 pages and signed by me) is true and in accordance with my understanding.
Date: 25th April 2008
Signature____________________________________________________
I am police officer Markley of the Leicestershire Police currently working in the criminal unit.
In 2007 and in relation to the Portuguese investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, I was detached to Portugal in the role of family communication officer.
According to the Portuguese PJ Letter of Request, I was asked to respond to the following question:
Was there anything done or said by Kate or Gerry McCann in your presence or during your various meetings that could raise any suspicion that they had any knowledge about what could have happened to Madeleine, beyond the circumstances described to the Portuguese investigators?
My reply to the question was: No.
However, in relation to the above, I would like to add the following: At about 20.00 on Saturday 5th May 2007, I arrived at the apartment where Kate and Gerry were staying, with other officers. During the meeting Gerald and Kate had a number of questions to which they wanted follow up and responses from the PJ.
"One of these questions was that they wanted the PJ to be aware of was Madeleine's revelation about Wednesday night, when she said that she was left alone during the night. She told Kate and Gerry that she remembered the twins crying and that she wanted to know why neither her mother nor her father had gone to the room to see what was happening.
They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction.
This statement was made by me and is truthful in accordance with my understanding." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN_MARKLEY.htm
So that is two Liaison officers who confirmed this.
I see nothing there which might lead the police to consider testing the twins.
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Every child is different
BUT, if you look back on my posts, you will see that I have alawys wondered if something was put in their evening meal at the tapas restaurant. A double dose for Madeleine and a half dose for each of the twins. Madeleine was so tired that night that she had to be carried home !
.... and they were all too tired to go out for their usual pre bed-play on the swings and climbing frames etc with their friends.
I personally think from the 'evidence' that they were all drugged/sedated at tea time, but I am only speculating and know that i could be incorrect
I do remember you saying that previously Sadie. Do the posts survive? You are not suggesting the cooks or the nannies are involved are you? So who do you think would have done this to the McCanns. That night they were the only ones from the Tapas 9 who were at tea with their kids in the Tapas, as the others were at the restaurant on the beach front.
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Quite likely a misunderstanding.
/
So many 'misunderstandings' connected to the McCanns. Are you suggesting that two people said 'Sean and I' and the interpreter heard 'twins'? Are you suggesting that when she read it back to them she said 'twins' and they heard 'Sean and I'? Really? 8(>((
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/
So many 'misunderstandings' connected to the McCanns. Are you suggesting that two people said 'Sean and I' and the interpreter heard 'twins'? Are you suggesting that when she read it back to them she said 'twins' and they heard 'Sean and I'? Really? 8(>((
Not at all. I think the misunderstanding occurred between Kate, Gerry and the liaison officers.
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Every child is different
BUT, if you look back on my posts, you will see that I have alawys wondered if something was put in their evening meal at the tapas restaurant. A double dose for Madeleine and a half dose for each of the twins. Madeleine was so tired that night that she had to be carried home !
.... and they were all too tired to go out for their usual pre bed-play on the swings and climbing frames etc with their friends.
I personally think from the 'evidence' that they were all drugged/sedated at tea time, but I am only speculating and know that i could be incorrect
But Kate said nothing about the twins being 'extra tired' or indeed tired at all. How do you explain that ? Further the first time Kate even suggested that Madeleine was 'extra tired' that night was in 2011 in her book. Before then Madeleine, according to the McCanns, was wide awake.
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I see nothing there which might lead the police to consider testing the twins.
Didn't we have a previous quote where Gerry was concerned that the twins were sedated? Now this one about Gerry asking "if there was any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction".
Surely it would be second nature for a detective to see the opportunity of gathering evidence by testing the twins ASAP.
It is not up to Gerry to tell the PJ how to go about their business.
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But Kate said nothing about the twins being 'extra tired' or indeed tired at all. How do you explain that ? Further the first time Kate even suggested that Madeleine was 'extra tired' that night was in 2011 in her book. Before then Madeleine, according to the McCanns, was wide awake.
When David came around Kate said the kids were too tired (from memory).
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"The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
The perfect family before the disaster.
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"The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
The perfect family before the disaster.
Gerry's off playing stupid tennis games, while Kate has dutifully got the three kids ready for bed! The perfect family!
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Gerry's off playing stupid tennis games, while Kate has dutifully got the three kids ready for bed! The perfect family!
Didn't realise you did irony. Nice one 8((()*/
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Didn't realise you did irony. Nice one 8((()*/
I do everything but not ironing.
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Every child is different
BUT, if you look back on my posts, you will see that I have alawys wondered if something was put in their evening meal at the tapas restaurant. A double dose for Madeleine and a half dose for each of the twins. Madeleine was so tired that night that she had to be carried home !
.... and they were all too tired to go out for their usual pre bed-play on the swings and climbing frames etc with their friends.
I personally think from the 'evidence' that they were all drugged/sedated at tea time, but I am only speculating and know that i could be incorrect
Rachael got it wrong in her rog interview;
'Erm Kate and the twins and Madeleine weren't there, I think they'd, I dont think they were there anyway and I know that they'd left shortly, shortly, I think it was shortly before we arrived, cos I know they'd been there, I think when the boys had arrived to play tennis and Kate had taken the kids off to get them ready for bed, so I don't think they were there when we got there, erm no'
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD-11-MAY07.htm
Matthew isn't at all sure;
on the Thursday when we came back up from tennis I'm not sure that Kate and the children err were there outside the tennis court when we arrived.......so I can't specifically recall whether I saw Madeleine at that point......I think they went back and they were gone by the time I got to the tennis courts.'
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
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This reluctance to admit to seeing Madeleine on Thursday - very telling - IMO
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Didn't we have a previous quote where Gerry was concerned that the twins were sedated? Now this one about Gerry asking "if there was any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction".
Surely it would be second nature for a detective to see the opportunity of gathering evidence by testing the twins ASAP.
It is not up to Gerry to tell the PJ how to go about their business.
There was no suggestion that the twins might have been sedated, so I can see no reason why the police would have thought it necessary to have them tested. Why didn't Kate repeat what she alleges she said to the GNR on 3rd?
I reported my fears that all three children could have been sedated [madeleine]
If she had said that to the PJ or the FLO's she might have got the response she says she wanted.
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This reluctance to admit to seeing Madeleine on Thursday - very telling - IMO
If they weren't there they weren't there, that's all.
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If they weren't there they weren't there, that's all.
A year after the event Matthew seemed unsure what he had seen. Seven days after the event he wasn't;
About 18h00 he, ROB and DP went to a social men's tennis match, held in the above resort area, where they remained until about 19h00. He clarifies that when they arrived at that meeting GM was already there, with KM and her children watching the match, the rest of the women and children joining them [KM and children] later.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-10MAY.htm
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There was no suggestion that the twins might have been sedated, so I can see no reason why the police would have thought it necessary to have them tested. Why didn't Kate repeat what she alleges she said to the GNR on 3rd?
I reported my fears that all three children could have been sedated [madeleine]
If she had said that to the PJ or the FLO's she might have got the response she says she wanted.
The quote Pathfinder gave was from Gery's arguido statement.
I'll repeat it here: "--- When questioned if the twins woke while the apartment was being searched, he replies negatively. When they were taken to another apartment he does not know if they woke as he did not take them. When asked, he says that this was not normal, and can find no reason for it happening. He still thought at this moment that the twins might have been drugged by the possible abductor, even if he only mentioned this to the Police several days later. When questioned, he says he never gave his children anything to help them sleep, nor did Kate. When asked why he did not ask the twins what happened to their sister, he says that when the events took place they still did not speak fluently, which is now a normal developmental difficulty. At this point he did not ask them because he thought that they would not have the correct perception of what had happened, in addition to thinking that they would have been sleeping."
OK we can't say for certain the words Gerry used but in there is a clear expression as far as he is concerned the authorities were aware of his concerns.
The liaison officers confirmed that. Whether that concern was passed on by the liaison officers we don't know.
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I do remember you saying that previously Sadie. Do the posts survive? You are not suggesting the cooks or the nannies are involved are you? So who do you think would have done this to the McCanns. That night they were the only ones from the Tapas 9 who were at tea with their kids in the Tapas, as the others were at the restaurant on the beach front.
I just relate my thoughts as i see them. They may be right or they may be wrong, but Madeleine had to be carried back to 5A after tea .... and the children were too tired to go out to play that evening. That must have been the highlight of the day for them, playing together on the outdoor play equipment with their friends in their pj's .... but they were too tired.
I haven't made any suggestions as to who might have tainted their food/drinks ... but there certainly is a question mark in my mind as to who Madeleines lifter might have been .... and the sensible person to do that was someone who she trusted and liked, in case she woke up.
I wonder who was on duty at the tapas restaurant that afternoon? Who prepared the food and drinks and who served it ? Any third party hanging around, passing thru?
I want to make it clear that these are only my thoughts, and I know that I might be wrong, but there are back up pointers which tend to support my thoughts.
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The quote Pathfinder gave was from Gery's arguido statement.
I'll repeat it here: "--- When questioned if the twins woke while the apartment was being searched, he replies negatively. When they were taken to another apartment he does not know if they woke as he did not take them. When asked, he says that this was not normal, and can find no reason for it happening. He still thought at this moment that the twins might have been drugged by the possible abductor, even if he only mentioned this to the Police several days later. When questioned, he says he never gave his children anything to help them sleep, nor did Kate. When asked why he did not ask the twins what happened to their sister, he says that when the events took place they still did not speak fluently, which is now a normal developmental difficulty. At this point he did not ask them because he thought that they would not have the correct perception of what had happened, in addition to thinking that they would have been sleeping."
OK we can't say for certain the words Gerry used but in there is a clear expression as far as he is concerned the authorities were aware of his concerns.
The liaison officers confirmed that. Whether that concern was passed on by the liaison officers we don't know.
The liaison officers never mentioned the twins because according to them the McCanns didn't. Unless, of course, the McCanns did. Had the PJ had their way the liaison officers would have been asked in detail what the McCanns told them, but their questions were rejected by Stuart Prior and replaced with just one more general question.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/CR2/cr2_120.jpg)
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But Kate said nothing about the twins being 'extra tired' or indeed tired at all. How do you explain that ? Further the first time Kate even suggested that Madeleine was 'extra tired' that night was in 2011 in her book. Before then Madeleine, according to the McCanns, was wide awake.
The little children were too tired to go out and play that evening. It is in the statements somewhere. I feel sure that you have seen it.
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Gerry's off playing stupid tennis games, while Kate has dutifully got the three kids ready for bed! The perfect family!
That's the way in most families, isn't it? The woman does all the chores and the man enjoys himself
No way is tennis stupid; it is a great game. Pity thta kate couldn't have joined in tho.
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I just relate my thoughts as i see them. They may be right or they may be wrong, but Madeleine had to be carried back to 5A after tea .... and the children were too tired to go out to play that evening. That must have been the highlight of the day for them, playing together on the outdoor play equipment with their friends in their pj's .... but they were too tired.
I haven't made any suggestions as to who might have tainted their food/drinks ... but there certainly is a question mark in my mind as to who Madeleines lifter might have been .... and the sensible person to do that was someone who she trusted and liked, in case she woke up.
I wonder who was on duty at the tapas restaurant that afternoon? Who prepared the food and drinks and who served it ? Any third party hanging around, passing thru?
I want to make it clear that these are only my thoughts, and I know that I might be wrong, but there are back up pointers which tend to support my thoughts.
Those are not stupid ideas, in fact if we were to consider a kidnapping that would be one very well thought out method, like a sleeping pill slipped into the chicken nugget!
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That's the way in most families, isn't it? The woman does all the chores and the man enjoys himself
No way is tennis stupid; it is a great game. Pity thta kate couldn't have joined in tho.
I enjoy watching it. At least Gerry had some consideration for Kate's maternal tasks, he sent David around to help with the bathing of the kids didn't he?
Well in hindsight that can't have been the reason for Gerry had already helped with that.
Post below: "They arrived at the apartment around 5:40PM, earlier than usual, because Madeleine was tired, their other friends were at the beach and Gerry had an all-male tennis game at 6:00PM. At the flat they both bathed the children, and close to 6:00PM Gerry went to the tennis courts, soon after the children had finished their bath."
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But Kate said nothing about the twins being 'extra tired' or indeed tired at all. How do you explain that ? Further the first time Kate even suggested that Madeleine was 'extra tired' that night was in 2011 in her book. Before then Madeleine, according to the McCanns, was wide awake.
I am afraid you have got it wrong ... yet again ... Madeleine's tiredness was mentioned long before Kate wrote about it in her book. As was noted that the children were not taken to the play area because of ... tiredness.
Why do you think Kate and Gerry were of the opinion that "Madeleine was wide awake" ... do you have a cite?
Snip
... she replied that she wasn't, but was rather tired. She asked Kate to carry her back to the apartment. Kate agreed, and Gerry led the twins back to the apartment. Tiredness was due to the intense daily activities, not to any sickness.
They arrived at the apartment around 5:40PM, earlier than usual, because Madeleine was tired, their other friends were at the beach and Gerry had an all-male tennis game at 6:00PM. At the flat they both bathed the children, and close to 6:00PM Gerry went to the tennis courts, soon after the children had finished their bath.
...
After the children's bath, already alone, she put pyjamas and nappies on the twins, gave them each a glass of milk and biscuits. Before bathing the children and because it was early, they had thought of taking them to the recreation area, but then decided against this because of tiredness.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm
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The little children were too tired to go out and play that evening. It is in the statements somewhere. I feel sure that you have seen it.
Sadie do you actually know how a sedated child would act ?
Kate said that the children were sitting reading books while she took her shower. Do you really think that if the children had been dosed with some kind of sedative they would be doing that over an hour after the sedative had been given ?
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I am afraid you have got it wrong ... yet again ... Madeleine's tiredness was mentioned long before Kate wrote about it in her book. As was noted that the children were not taken to the play area because of ... tiredness.
Why do you think Kate and Gerry were of the opinion that "Madeleine was wide awake" ... do you have a cite?
Snip
... she replied that she wasn't, but was rather tired. She asked Kate to carry her back to the apartment. Kate agreed, and Gerry led the twins back to the apartment. Tiredness was due to the intense daily activities, not to any sickness.
They arrived at the apartment around 5:40PM, earlier than usual, because Madeleine was tired, their other friends were at the beach and Gerry had an all-male tennis game at 6:00PM. At the flat they both bathed the children, and close to 6:00PM Gerry went to the tennis courts, soon after the children had finished their bath.
...
After the children's bath, already alone, she put pyjamas and nappies on the twins, gave them each a glass of milk and biscuits. Before bathing the children and because it was early, they had thought of taking them to the recreation area, but then decided against this because of tiredness.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm
Perhaps you missed this part Brietta 'Tiredness was due to the intense daily activities, not to any sickness'. Being an anaesthetist I think Kate would have known the difference between natural tiredness and tiredness brought on by sedation even if you don't.
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Perhaps you missed this part Brietta 'Tiredness was due to the intense daily activities, not to any sickness'. Being an anaesthetist I think Kate would have known the difference between natural tiredness and tiredness brought on by sedation even if you don't.
At that stage, why should she even have a thought of them being drugged or sedated ? They were away on holiday FGS
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Perhaps you missed this part Brietta 'Tiredness was due to the intense daily activities, not to any sickness'. Being an anaesthetist I think Kate would have known the difference between natural tiredness and tiredness brought on by sedation even if you don't.
You are making a lot of presumptions here.
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Perhaps you missed this part Brietta 'Tiredness was due to the intense daily activities, not to any sickness'. Being an anaesthetist I think Kate would have known the difference between natural tiredness and tiredness brought on by sedation even if you don't.
I missed nothing in my response to your post ... in particular the 'error' you made in asserting the children's tiredness was not mentioned until 2011 for which you have failed to provide the cite I requested.
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At that stage, why should she even have a thought of them being drugged or sedated ? They were away on holiday FGS
If the children had been sedated at tea by the time they got to the apartment they would certainly have been unnaturally sleepy and certainly too sleepy to have milk and read books. Can you suggest to me Sadie what sedative could be put in a child's food or drink that would be so slow acting that the full effect would only be felt after at least two hours ?
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If the children had been sedated at tea by the time they got to the apartment they would certainly be unnaturally sleepy and certainly too sleepy to have milk and read books. Can you suggest to me Sadie what sedative could be put in a child's food or drink that would be so slow acting that the full effect would only be felt after at least two hours ?
Years ago I did have a look at the list of possible sedatives it was over 50 drugs long. It would be an enormous task to answer a question like that.
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Years ago I did have a look at the list of possible sedatives it was over 50 drugs long. It would be an enormous task to answer a question like that.
A trained Anaesthetist would know. As the measure would have to be accurate to prevent overdose or reaction to a drug. the person would need know the weight ,build of a child to give accurate measure.
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A trained Anaesthetist would know. As the measure would have to be accurate to prevent overdose or reaction to a drug. the person would need know the weight ,build of a child to give accurate measure.
Sedating children is a job for a specialist, not an amateur. When medics do it they keep a very close eye on the child because it's risky.
Having said that, there are some medicines which people use to send their kids to sleep on flights without a second thought, it seems.
Who would have thought that for many people, this simple decision to sedate my daughter with an antihistamine was a dangerous abuse of my parental power? But many mothers, like me, believe it’s common sense.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2305529/Why-I-drug-children-airplanes-We-know-hell-bawling-toddlers-flights-But-mums-controversial-solution-.html#ixzz54Yew4RyG
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A trained Anaesthetist would know. As the measure would have to be accurate to prevent overdose or reaction to a drug. the person would need know the weight ,build of a child to give accurate measure.
We would have to be talking about off label use of these drugs. The types of drugs an anaesthetist would use in the UK would not be available to Kate in Portugal, and there would be no training given in off label use so I think the assertion "a trained Anaesthetist would know" is wrong.
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We would have to be talking about off label use of these drugs. The types of drugs an anaesthetist would use in the UK would not be available to Kate in Portugal, and there would be no training given in off label use so I think the assertion "a trained Anaesthetist would know" is wrong.
Ketamine is safe to use as an anaesthetic for children & is used for recreational purposes (presumably not illegal in Portugal). It can be used intra-muscular as well as IV.
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Ketamine is safe to use as an anaesthetic for children & is used for recreational purposes (presumably not illegal in Portugal). It can be used intra-muscular as well as IV.
What would make you think it isn't illegal to use Ketamine as a recreational drug in Portugal?
Wikipedia on the recreational use of Ketmine:
"Recreational use[edit]
Ketamine poured onto glass and left to dry.
Recreational use of ketamine was documented in the early 1970s in underground literature (e.g. The Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers[164]). It was used in psychiatric and other academic research through the 1970s, culminating in 1978 with the publishing of psychonaut John Lilly's The Scientist, and Marcia Moore and Howard Alltounian's Journeys into the Bright World, which documented the unusual phenomenology of ketamine intoxication.[165] The incidence of non-medical ketamine use increased through the end of the century, especially in the context of raves and other parties.[166][167][168][169][142] Its emergence as a club drug differs from other club drugs (e.g., MDMA), however, due to its anesthetic properties (e.g., slurred speech, immobilization) at higher doses;[142] in addition, reports of ketamine being sold as "ecstasy" are common.[170] In the 1993 book E for Ecstasy[171] (about the uses of the street drug Ecstasy in the UK), the writer, activist, and Ecstasy advocate Nicholas Saunders highlighted test results showing that certain consignments of the drug also contained ketamine. Consignments of Ecstasy known as "Strawberry" contained what Saunders described as a "potentially dangerous combination of ketamine, ephedrine, and selegiline", as did a consignment of "Sitting Duck" Ecstasy tablets.[172]
The use of ketamine as part of a "post-clubbing experience" has also been documented.[173] Ketamine's rise in the dance culture was most rapid in Hong Kong by the end of the 1990s.[142]
Ketamine use as a recreational drug has been implicated in deaths globally, with more than 90 deaths in England and Wales in the years of 2005–2013.[174] They include accidental poisonings, drownings, traffic accidents, and suicides.[174] The majority of deaths were among young people.[175] This has led to increased regulation (e.g., upgrading ketamine from a Class C to a Class B banned substance in the U.K.).[176]
Unlike the other well-known dissociatives phencyclidine (PCP) and dextromethorphan (DXM), ketamine is very short-acting. It takes effect within about 10 minutes,[177] while its hallucinogenic effects last 60 minutes when insufflated or injected and up to two hours when ingested orally.[178]
At anesthetic doses – under-dosaged from a medical point of view – ketamine produces a dissociative state, characterised by a sense of detachment from one's physical body and the external world which is known as depersonalization and derealization.[179] At sufficiently high doses, users may experience what is called the "K-hole", a state of extreme dissociation with visual and auditory hallucinations.[180] John C. Lilly, Marcia Moore and D. M. Turner (amongst others) have written extensively about their own entheogenic use of, and psychonautic experiences with ketamine.[181] Both Moore and Turner died prematurely (due to hypothermia and drowning respectively) during presumed unsupervised ketamine use.[182]
Because of its ability to cause confusion and amnesia, ketamine can leave users vulnerable to date rape.[177][138]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketamine#Recreational_use
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A reminder to all posters that appropriate language should be used when commenting. Far too many posts still require moderator intervention so please consider carefully what you post. It is always useful to deploy the preview option before making your comments public.
I do not want to stifle debate but if individual members continue to flaunt our rules I will intercede.
Duty Admin
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What would make you think it isn't illegal to use Ketamine as a recreational drug in Portugal?
Wikipedia on the recreational use of Ketmine:
"Recreational use[edit]
Ketamine poured onto glass and left to dry.
Recreational use of ketamine was documented in the early 1970s in underground literature (e.g. The Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers[164]). It was used in psychiatric and other academic research through the 1970s, culminating in 1978 with the publishing of psychonaut John Lilly's The Scientist, and Marcia Moore and Howard Alltounian's Journeys into the Bright World, which documented the unusual phenomenology of ketamine intoxication.[165] The incidence of non-medical ketamine use increased through the end of the century, especially in the context of raves and other parties.[166][167][168][169][142] Its emergence as a club drug differs from other club drugs (e.g., MDMA), however, due to its anesthetic properties (e.g., slurred speech, immobilization) at higher doses;[142] in addition, reports of ketamine being sold as "ecstasy" are common.[170] In the 1993 book E for Ecstasy[171] (about the uses of the street drug Ecstasy in the UK), the writer, activist, and Ecstasy advocate Nicholas Saunders highlighted test results showing that certain consignments of the drug also contained ketamine. Consignments of Ecstasy known as "Strawberry" contained what Saunders described as a "potentially dangerous combination of ketamine, ephedrine, and selegiline", as did a consignment of "Sitting Duck" Ecstasy tablets.[172]
The use of ketamine as part of a "post-clubbing experience" has also been documented.[173] Ketamine's rise in the dance culture was most rapid in Hong Kong by the end of the 1990s.[142]
Ketamine use as a recreational drug has been implicated in deaths globally, with more than 90 deaths in England and Wales in the years of 2005–2013.[174] They include accidental poisonings, drownings, traffic accidents, and suicides.[174] The majority of deaths were among young people.[175] This has led to increased regulation (e.g., upgrading ketamine from a Class C to a Class B banned substance in the U.K.).[176]
Unlike the other well-known dissociatives phencyclidine (PCP) and dextromethorphan (DXM), ketamine is very short-acting. It takes effect within about 10 minutes,[177] while its hallucinogenic effects last 60 minutes when insufflated or injected and up to two hours when ingested orally.[178]
At anesthetic doses – under-dosaged from a medical point of view – ketamine produces a dissociative state, characterised by a sense of detachment from one's physical body and the external world which is known as depersonalization and derealization.[179] At sufficiently high doses, users may experience what is called the "K-hole", a state of extreme dissociation with visual and auditory hallucinations.[180] John C. Lilly, Marcia Moore and D. M. Turner (amongst others) have written extensively about their own entheogenic use of, and psychonautic experiences with ketamine.[181] Both Moore and Turner died prematurely (due to hypothermia and drowning respectively) during presumed unsupervised ketamine use.[182]
Because of its ability to cause confusion and amnesia, ketamine can leave users vulnerable to date rape.[177][138]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketamine#Recreational_use
If Ketamine is available in Portugal legitimately it may very well be used as a recreational drug ... which would place it amongst other recreational drugs the use of which in most cases has been decriminalised for drug users.
Portugal: When Heroin Was King
By Danna Harman
Snip
And, following this logic, Portugal proceeded to take the revolutionary step of decriminalizing all illicit drugs, from marijuana thru heroin — becoming the first such country in the world to do so.
“What was unique was that, for the first time ever, there was a focus on the rights of drug users,” says Caitlin Hughes, from the Australian National Drug and Alcohol Research Centre, who has long studied Portugal’s drug policies. “That, and a willingness to take a risk even if it was unclear that it would work.”
This month, the country quietly marked the decade anniversary of those groundbreaking drug laws, and turned its attention to assessing what has, and has not been accomplished.
**
“To begin with, it’s decriminalization, not legalization,” says Goulao, now president of the Ministry of Health’s Institute of Drugs and Drugs Addiction, or as he is widely known, Portugal’s drug czar.
Drugs are and remain illegal in Portugal, he explains, sitting down in his sunny Lisbon office, taking out his drug of choice — a cigarette — and lighting up. This means, that, in theory at least, anyone using drugs, including tourists, can and will be picked up by police.
It is what happens next that is unique. Instead of being sent to a criminal court, offenders are given three days to present themselves before one of the Health Ministry’s special panels, compromised of psychologists, doctors, social workers and judges.
The panel evaluates each case and makes recommendations. Anyone found with more than the quantity deemed “reasonable” for ten days of personal use (for example, one gram of heroine, 10 of opium, 25 of cannabis etc) is sent into the criminal justice system, where they can be and are prosecuted and punished for trafficking.
Among the others, a differentiation is made — between “addicts” and “casual users.” Those deemed to be casual users get off with a warning or maybe a fine, usually between 50-60 euros, while “addicts,” are directed to one of the country’s 79 treatment centers where they can, if they want, get all forms of help, from counseling to methadone replacement treatment.
In 2008, the last year for which figures are available, more than 40,000 people went though these treatment programs. The bill is footed by the Ministry of Health to the tune of about €50 million a year, with an additional €20 million provided through a charity funded by Portugal’s national lotteries.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/danna-harman/when-heroin-was-king-ten-_b_897474.html
The above is taken from an informative article giving the resulting effect of the revolution on one aspect of Portuguese life.
It certainly gives one food for thought relevant to two aspects of drug usage in Portugal when Madeleine went missing ... - the fact the police did not immediately give consideration to the sleepiness of the twins
- the failure by the police to recognise the properties of Calpol and to assume it was a killer sedative
In my opinion the implementation of their ability to exercise their role as demanded by the State must have been seriously impaired by their lack of working knowledge on drugs or the inability to source it.
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It's important to differentiate between a sedative & an anaesthetic & the way they are administered. Ketamine is used in paediatrics & can be administered by inter-muscular means. It was legal in the UK until 2005 when it was given Class C drug status.
For those who dismiss the use of chloroform, perhaps the drug choice of ravers is a safer alternative for potential use in drugging a child,
Feel free to discuss the issue further here or have a whinge elsewhere. Your choice.
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It's important to differentiate between a sedative & an anaesthetic & the way they are administered. Ketamine is used in paediatrics & can be administered by inter-muscular means. It was legal in the UK until 2005 when it was given Class C drug status.
For those who dismiss the use of chloroform, perhaps the drug choice of ravers is a safer alternative for potential use in drugging a child,
Feel free to discuss the issue further here or have a whinge elsewhere. Your choice.
You continue to surprise me Misty! "chloroform, perhaps the drug choice of ravers" I had no idea that that was the case. There is not much on the internet connecting the two.
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You continue to surprise me Misty! "chloroform, perhaps the drug choice of ravers" I had no idea that that was the case. There is not much on the internet connecting the two.
To clarify
comma after chloroform, Ketamine used to be a drug choice for ravers.
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To clarify
comma after chloroform, Ketamine used to be a drug choice for ravers.
So the sentence is "For those who dismiss the use of chloroform, Ketamine, perhaps the drug choice of ravers, is a safer alternative for potential use in drugging a child,...."
Still a surprising statement for anyone to make. You seem to be saying that from a point of personal knowledge. I never took you as a raver but time moves on. "Safer alternative for potential use in drugging a child", how did you figure that out?