UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Robittybob1 on January 04, 2018, 09:07:28 PM
-
We saw on the Dispatches documentary the OC had a receptionist in the office there and non guests weren't allowed in.
OK that was after Madeleine went missing, but does anyone describe how security to the OC grounds was handled prior to Madeleine being reported missing?
With guests coming to the Tapas Bar and Restaurant were they vetted before coming on the premises? Was there a different policy during the day and the night?
43
-
We saw on the Dispatches documentary the OC had a receptionist in the office there and non guests weren't allowed in.
OK that was after Madeleine went missing, but does anyone describe how security to the OC grounds was handled prior to Madeleine being reported missing?
With guests coming to the Tapas Bar and Restaurant were they vetted before coming on the premises? Was there a different policy during the day and the night?
My experience is not a lot of use because we visited first in 2010, but at that time there was no security at all. Nobody monitoring as we walked thru the Tapas secondary reception. Nobody even in the reception to see us go thru. No one challenged us when we ordered our meal. It seemed that it was OK for members of the public to wander in.
-
My experience is not a lot of use because we visited first in 2010, but at that time there was no security at all. Nobody monitoring as we walked thru the Tapas secondary reception. Nobody even in the reception to see us go thru. No one challenged us when we ordered our meal. It seemed that it was OK for members of the public to wander in.
What was the restaurant called at the time?
And what did you eat that night or nights?
*&(+(+
-
What was the restaurant called at the time?
And what did you eat that night or nights? We only ate there once. We ate at our hotel which was up Rua Maio, called Beunovista, IIRC and also at the
*&(+(+
I didn't take note of any special name because i thought of it as The Tapas Restaurant. In fact i dont remember it having any special name at all. No-one was in the Tapas Secondary Reception and we just strolled in and out again when we left.
A meal 7 years ago? Please be realistic.
But I can remember that altho it was nothing really special, we were pleasantly suprised ... and it wasn't expensive.
Have you eaten there? What did you have?
We also ate at the Hotel ?Beunovista? where we stayed for three nights ... A nice little 4* hotol ... Just up Rua Maio from OC. On the last night we ate at Chaplins restaurant next to the church. Now thta was a cracking meal for the price and the place buzzed. Would definitely eat there again.
I can only remember one lunch and that was at the Red Lion ... very ordinary but cheap. From there I found the decrepid broken steps which I risked my life going down. At at the bottom was the little rocky beach with the tide in ... but I could still see the entrance to the tunnel that Colin Shakile and his ex Army friend are photographed emerging from.
Strangely one of them died soon after and the other was accused of being a druggie IIRC. All reference to them seems to have been wiped off the internet
That always makes things doubly interesting to me when they get wiped. I wonder why they get hidden.
The tunnel they were emerging from was later blocked off and skilfully disguised. So well disguised that even our chief professional sleuth Heriberto Janosch did not notice that there was a tunnel there until he examined before and after photos. Then fast as lightening he proved it. Well done Heri.
I wonder if that tunnel links with the other tunnels in PdL?
-
My experience is not a lot of use because we visited first in 2010, but at that time there was no security at all. Nobody monitoring as we walked thru the Tapas secondary reception. Nobody even in the reception to see us go thru. No one challenged us when we ordered our meal. It seemed that it was OK for members of the public to wander in.
No once the excitement was over they may have reverted back to the pre-Madeleine missing control over the entrance. In the photos we can see a door at the entrance to the reception, can you recall if it would have been possible to close that door at night? Was it just held open by a simple clip that could be released at any time?
What concerns me was the possibility that someone intentionally or by accident closed that door. That closed door would also prevent Madeleine finding her mum at the Tapas too. If the door had a self closing mechanism on it, it could easily have been too awkward for Madeleine to have opened at the time she tries. Was this possibility prevented by the door being locked open in any way?
-
No once the excitement was over they may have reverted back to the pre-Madeleine missing control over the entrance. In the photos we can see a door at the entrance to the reception, can you recall if it would have been possible to close that door at night? Was it just held open by a simple clip that could be released at any time?
What concerns me was the possibility that someone intentionally or by accident closed that door. That closed door would also prevent Madeleine finding her mum at the Tapas too. If the door had a self closing mechanism on it, it could easily have been too awkward for Madeleine to have opened at the time she tries. Was this possibility prevented by the door being locked open in any way?
Over seven years ago is a long time, but I am sure the door was open when we arrived and pretty sure that it was also open when we left, but I dont believe that scent the dogs followed was Madeleines, cos i dont think that she could have managed all the obstacles in the way. I think the scent was of the person who lifted Madeleine and was laid down en route from the little Tapas car park to the to the front door ... rather than the reverse.
I think the lifters stronger scent overpowered Madeleines delicate scent on the towel, or whatever was used to 'key' the dogs,
OIMO
-
Over seven years ago is a long time, but I am sure the door was open when we arrived and pretty sure that it was also open when we left, but I dont believe that scent the dogs followed was Madeleines, cos i dont think that she could have managed all the obstacles in the way. I think the scent was of the person who lifted Madeleine and was laid down en route from the little Tapas car park to the to the front door ... rather than the reverse.
I think the lifters stronger scent overpowered Madeleines delicate scent on the towel, or whatever was used to 'key' the dogs,
OIMO
Those comfort blankets can get particularly smelly.
-
Those comfort blankets can get particularly smelly.
Can they?
Do you think they took a smelly blanket with them to PT ?
-
No once the excitement was over they may have reverted back to the pre-Madeleine missing control over the entrance. In the photos we can see a door at the entrance to the reception, can you recall if it would have been possible to close that door at night? Was it just held open by a simple clip that could be released at any time?
What concerns me was the possibility that someone intentionally or by accident closed that door. That closed door would also prevent Madeleine finding her mum at the Tapas too. If the door had a self closing mechanism on it, it could easily have been too awkward for Madeleine to have opened at the time she tries. Was this possibility prevented by the door being locked open in any way?
Each family had a card which was given to them at check-in when they arrived;
secondary reception where the entered without difficulty as they had an access card that they did not ask for but they had been given during the Check-in.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
These cards are used as authorisation when entering facilities;
The bar is open exclusively to resort clients, and that control is made by means of a client card at the entrance to the bar.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HAYLEY-CRAWFORD.htm
Whether the cards were just shown to staff or whether they could be used to open a closed door I don't know.
-
I didn't take note of any special name because i thought of it as The Tapas Restaurant. In fact i dont remember it having any special name at all. No-one was in the Tapas Secondary Reception and we just strolled in and out again when we left.
A meal 7 years ago? Please be realistic.
But I can remember that altho it was nothing really special, we were pleasantly suprised ... and it wasn't expensive.
Have you eaten there? What did you have?
We also ate at the Hotel ?Beunovista? where we stayed for three nights ... A nice little 4* hotol ... Just up Rua Maio from OC. On the last night we ate at Chaplins restaurant next to the church. Now thta was a cracking meal for the price and the place buzzed. Would definitely eat there again.
I can only remember one lunch and that was at the Red Lion ... very ordinary but cheap. From there I found the decrepid broken steps which I risked my life going down. At at the bottom was the little rocky beach with the tide in ... but I could still see the entrance to the tunnel that Colin Shakile and his ex Army friend are photographed emerging from.
Strangely one of them died soon after and the other was accused of being a druggie IIRC. All reference to them seems to have been wiped off the internet
That always makes things doubly interesting to me when they get wiped. I wonder why they get hidden.
The tunnel they were emerging from was later blocked off and skilfully disguised. So well disguised that even our chief professional sleuth Heriberto Janosch did not notice that there was a tunnel there until he examined before and after photos. Then fast as lightening he proved it. Well done Heri.
I wonder if that tunnel links with the other tunnels in PdL?
The restaurant had morphed into the Pizzeria da Luz by not later than 8 Jun 2010 - the date of the first capture of www.pizzeriadaluz.com on the Wayback Machine. It seems to have closed prior to OG's dig in Luz, (when I first became interested in the case), so I never had a reason to eat in it.
I have a paper copy of the menu for Pizzeria da Luz, and it is a standard, simple Italian pizza joint menu. There is no mention of any of the foods eaten by those testifying re the Tapas Restaurant (steak, roubalo with couscous, sardines, and something with red cabbage). It is mainly pizza with a few Italian alternatives. In this format, the restaurant was open to the general public, from 6pm to 10.30pm.
Your hotel is the Belavista, known locally as the pink palace. It has no connection to the case, apart from the fact that Luz Tour 1 started from there.
The pub beside the steps down to the little beach is the Bull. I don't know when it became the Bull, but I've never heard of the Red Lion.
-
Can they?
Do you think they took a smelly blanket with them to PT ?
I had one as a child, my daughter had a rag doll, and the grandson had "Blanky" that he would sleep with that wasn't ever washed AFAIK. - The smell is the comfort for the child.
-
Ooops. I forgot to upload this.
Pizzeria da Luz.
-
Each family had a card which was given to them at check-in when they arrived;
secondary reception where the entered without difficulty as they had an access card that they did not ask for but they had been given during the Check-in.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
These cards are used as authorisation when entering facilities;
The bar is open exclusively to resort clients, and that control is made by means of a client card at the entrance to the bar.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HAYLEY-CRAWFORD.htm
Whether the cards were just shown to staff or whether they could be used to open a closed door I don't know.
I don't know about you but this thread is beginning to send shivers down my spine. So we have one security card per family. Well that isn't going to be so good if Madeleine is made to show her card as enters the secondary reception on her own.
The way I see the events possibly unfolding is that the restaurant manager, as he is arriving and/or later leaving, getting concerned that the security at Tapas Restaurant is not being maintained as they should if they just have the door pinned open, and unpinning the door, as it was supposed to be. (Kate's idea of telling Madeleine to come over to the Tapas if she wakes up must depend on the door at the reception being clipped open at all times.)
This is something that the Tapas 9 can check for regularly but it is also something that can't be constantly maintained.
My fear is that at the time when Madeleine tried to open the secondary reception door it was closed and needed the card to open it. She could not get in on her own.
That could explain why she crossed the road (seeking help). The tracker dogs follow a trail to the gate and then across the road to the car park. This path now makes sense to me.
Does this mean Russell when he returned to the Tapas opened the door again and pinned it back? For Kate has never mentioned that the door had to be opened when she did her check. If someone closed the door someone else has to open it again.
-
Gerry on the use of the security card. "----- That that was the first time they walked altogether along the route inside and around the resort. They left by the front door, which he locked with the key, he followed the wall around and turned right, going down the side road to the resort up to the secondary reception where the entered without difficulty as they had an access card that they did not ask for but they had been given during the Check-in.
----- After they passed through the secondary reception they went to the TAPAS restaurant,..." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
and the other "In the summer, her working hours are from 10H00 to 18H00.
The bar is open exclusively to resort clients, and that control is made by means of a client card at the entrance to the bar.
When asked, she says that she does not remember anyone having entered without being authorised." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HAYLEY-CRAWFORD.htm
I find this hard to believe. "she says that she does not remember anyone having entered without being authorised".
-
Gerry on the use of the security card. "----- That that was the first time they walked altogether along the route inside and around the resort. They left by the front door, which he locked with the key, he followed the wall around and turned right, going down the side road to the resort up to the secondary reception where the entered without difficulty as they had an access card that they did not ask for but they had been given during the Check-in.
----- After they passed through the secondary reception they went to the TAPAS restaurant,..." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
and the other "In the summer, her working hours are from 10H00 to 18H00.
The bar is open exclusively to resort clients, and that control is made by means of a client card at the entrance to the bar.
When asked, she says that she does not remember anyone having entered without being authorised." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HAYLEY-CRAWFORD.htm
I find this hard to believe. "she says that she does not remember anyone having entered without being authorised".
She's talking about the bar in to the adults only pool, near Stephen Carpenter's apartment.
-
The restaurant had morphed into the Pizzeria da Luz by not later than 8 Jun 2010 - the date of the first capture of www.pizzeriadaluz.com on the Wayback Machine. It seems to have closed prior to OG's dig in Luz, (when I first became interested in the case), so I never had a reason to eat in it.
I have a paper copy of the menu for Pizzeria da Luz, and it is a standard, simple Italian pizza joint menu. There is no mention of any of the foods eaten by those testifying re the Tapas Restaurant (steak, roubalo with couscous, sardines, and something with red cabbage). It is mainly pizza with a few Italian alternatives. In this format, the restaurant was open to the general public, from 6pm to 10.30pm.
Your hotel is the Belavista, known locally as the pink palace. It has no connection to the case, apart from the fact that Luz Tour 1 started from there.
The pub beside the steps down to the little beach is the Bull. I don't know when it became the Bull, but I've never heard of the Red Lion.
Belavista ( which I have stayed in and the food's appalling ) does have a connection to the case. One of the McCann interviews was conducted there.
-
She's talking about the bar in to the adults only pool, near Stephen Carpenter's apartment.
So were they a different set of access cards than what Gerry was talking about?
If they were a different set of access cards when would they have issued them.
-
So were they a different set of access cards than what Gerry was talking about?
If they were a different set of access cards when would they have issued them.
No. there was one card per family. It got them into places and it may have said what they were entitled to (like a free breakfast). Some private owners offered access to the facilities for people who rented their apartments directly. That may have involved a card, but for entrance only, no meals.
-
The restaurant had morphed into the Pizzeria da Luz by not later than 8 Jun 2010 - the date of the first capture of www.pizzeriadaluz.com on the Wayback Machine. It seems to have closed prior to OG's dig in Luz, (when I first became interested in the case), so I never had a reason to eat in it.
I have a paper copy of the menu for Pizzeria da Luz, and it is a standard, simple Italian pizza joint menu. There is no mention of any of the foods eaten by those testifying re the Tapas Restaurant (steak, roubalo with couscous, sardines, and something with red cabbage). It is mainly pizza with a few Italian alternatives. In this format, the restaurant was open to the general public, from 6pm to 10.30pm.
Your hotel is the Belavista, known locally as the pink palace. It has no connection to the case, apart from the fact that Luz Tour 1 started from there.
The pub beside the steps down to the little beach is the Bull. I don't know when it became the Bull, but I've never heard of the Red Lion.
We were there is june/july 2010. I cant remember anything like steak or roasts being on the menu. I dont care too much for Pizzas, but do like spaghetti bolognese. Maybe that is what we had. Just asked hubby and he cant remember either. The place was a bit like 5A, pretty basic, but clean and matching furniture and OK .
You are right, the pub with steps, now repaired, down to the little beach is the Bull ... and not The Red Lion (which is the symbol of Judah)
Thanks for that SIL 8((()*/
-
Belavista ( which I have stayed in and the food's appalling ) does have a connection to the case. One of the McCann interviews was conducted there.
Also Clarence Mitchell stayed there according to the staff.
I didn't care for the dinner we had there, but the breakfasts were terrific. They cooked your breakfast to order and there was a wide choice. That hotel is like a tardis, small but with two infinity pools and a tennis Court. Also a simple outside bar. Aparently they have /or had a steady supply of customers returning each year. Like at OC they pack an awful lot into a small space
-
Has anyone got a close up of the secondary reception door?
-
Found a video which shows the door shut and there is a big slot alongside the door knob which could well be the security access card slot. https://youtu.be/drR76h4oy7Q?t=35
another shot of the door handles https://youtu.be/drR76h4oy7Q?t=233
-
Found a video which shows the door shut and there is a big slot alongside the door knob which could well be the security access card slot. https://youtu.be/drR76h4oy7Q?t=35
another shot of the door handles https://youtu.be/drR76h4oy7Q?t=233
Two points I noticed on the second video clip (bit off topic as it is in reference to the apartment window and not reception) - the new metal security screen hasn't yet been fitted
- the shutter is askew
I wonder if the screen had to be fitted there and elsewhere because people wandered around, very much as the person filming was, and some were trying to raise the shutter from outside?
-
Two points I noticed on the second video clip (bit off topic as it is in reference to the apartment window and not reception) - the new metal security screen hasn't yet been fitted
- the shutter is askew
I wonder if the screen had to be fitted there and elsewhere because people wandered around, very much as the person filming was, and some were trying to raise the shutter from outside?
Well I'm thankful for that clip.
-
Found a video which shows the door shut and there is a big slot alongside the door knob which could well be the security access card slot. https://youtu.be/drR76h4oy7Q?t=35
another shot of the door handles https://youtu.be/drR76h4oy7Q?t=233
Dogs and handlers couldn't get through the secondary reception door on 4 May 2007 when performing their tracking on Madeleine's scent. The last place Madeleine returned from on 3 May 2007 at around 17:30 proving the dogs were good at their work. The first tracking dog led them to the secondary reception entrance but it was closed.
- On the 4th of May of the current year, around 22H30, he was asked to use the dogs in conjunction with a search that attempted to retrace the steps taken by the missing minor. His role was to use the dogs' skills by allowing them to sniff a towel which had supposedly been used by the minor in question.
- That after the dogs were given this scent from the towel and near apartment 5A of block 5, the first sniffer dog headed to the door of that apartment. Immediately afterwards, he turned to block 5, using a circumvented route to block 5, and came to the road between this block and the leisure area of the resort (pools, restaurant, etc), and turned to the left, or around the referred to apartment and headed to the main road.
Having reached there, he crossed the road and next to a wall of block 6, turned right and headed to the parking zone of the resort. More specifically, the dog went next to the light post and began smelling that location.
After searching that zone, he again crossed the road and headed toward the entrance to the pool and restaurant area, and smelled the door which was closed at that hour."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PEDRO_ESTEVES.htm
-
Dogs and handlers couldn't get through the secondary reception door on 4 May 2007 when performing their tracking on Madeleine's scent. The last place Madeleine returned from on 3 May 2007 at around 17:30 proving the dogs were good at their work. The first tracking dog led them to the secondary reception entrance but it was closed.
- On the 4th of May of the current year, around 22H30, he was asked to use the dogs in conjunction with a search that attempted to retrace the steps taken by the missing minor. His role was to use the dogs' skills by allowing them to sniff a towel which had supposedly been used by the minor in question.
- That after the dogs were given this scent from the towel and near apartment 5A of block 5, the first sniffer dog headed to the door of that apartment. Immediately afterwards, he turned to block 5, using a circumvented route to block 5, and came to the road between this block and the leisure area of the resort (pools, restaurant, etc), and turned to the left, or around the referred to apartment and headed to the main road.
Having reached there, he crossed the road and next to a wall of block 6, turned right and headed to the parking zone of the resort. More specifically, the dog went next to the light post and began smelling that location.
After searching that zone, he again crossed the road and headed toward the entrance to the pool and restaurant area, and smelled the door which was closed at that hour."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PEDRO_ESTEVES.htm
OK so the door was closed at that time. That is not surprising really or is it not, they must have shut the restaurant early that night "On the 4th of May of the current year, around 22H30" .
I think you have come to a false conclusion here when you say "The last place Madeleine returned from on 3 May 2007 at around 17:30 proving the dogs were good at their work." There could be more than 1 trail that the dogs were following.
Did Madeleine return home from the high tea using that route i.e the reverse of what is described? Did she go up the alley way and then around block 5 to the front door that day? Did she cross the main road twice?
-
OK so the door was closed at that time. That is not surprising really or is it not, they must have shut the restaurant early that night "On the 4th of May of the current year, around 22H30" .
I think you have come to a false conclusion here when you say "The last place Madeleine returned from on 3 May 2007 at around 17:30 proving the dogs were good at their work." There could be more than 1 trail that the dogs were following.
Did Madeleine return home from the high tea using that route i.e the reverse of what is described? Did she go up the alley way and then around block 5 to the front door that day? Did she cross the main road twice?
Was high tea not at the Tapas? Why should she need to cross a main road?
-
Was high tea not at the Tapas? Why should she need to cross a main road?
I can think of reasons why she crossed the main road in a woke and wandered situation, but I can't see it happening after high tea, but they did walk from the creche to the Tapas for high tea and that might entail crossing the main road; depends on the route the nannies took.
-
I can think of reasons why she crossed the main road in a woke and wandered situation, but I can't see it happening after high tea, but they did walk from the creche to the Tapas for high tea and that might entail crossing the main road; depends on the route the nannies took.
That's the route to high tea from the creche. Madeleine crossed at the lamppost to the secondary reception entrance. It's all very simple.
-
That's the route to high tea from the creche. Madeleine crossed at the lamppost to the secondary reception entrance. It's all very simple.
Good theory but is it a fact?
-
We were there is june/july 2010. I cant remember anything like steak or roasts being on the menu. I dont care too much for Pizzas, but do like spaghetti bolognese. Maybe that is what we had. Just asked hubby and he cant remember either. The place was a bit like 5A, pretty basic, but clean and matching furniture and OK .
You are right, the pub with steps, now repaired, down to the little beach is the Bull ... and not The Red Lion (which is the symbol of Judah)
Thanks for that SIL 8((()*/
If pizza was not to your taste, the alternatives were limited.
3 salads. Goat's cheese. Char grilled chicken and bacon. Tuna. Salads €6.50 to €8.50.
4 mains. Marinated chicken breast with a braised butter bean, vegetable and chorizo stew. Lemon and garlic king prawns, chips and lemon mayonnaise. Gnocci with a wild mushroom and Gorgonzola sauce, fresh rocket and Parmesan shavings. And of course, spag bol. Mains all €8.50.
Moving back to the thread title, am I correct in assuming you simply walked in off the street, that both reception doors (exterior and interior) were open, that there was no staff member at reception, and that you did not need a card of any kind to enter?
Mid-2010 will tell us a limited amount about mid-2007, but such tiny pieces of information often prove invaluable.
*&(+(+
-
If pizza was not to your taste, the alternatives were limited.
3 salads. Goat's cheese. Char grilled chicken and bacon. Tuna. Salads €6.50 to €8.50.
4 mains. Marinated chicken breast with a braised butter bean, vegetable and chorizo stew. Lemon and garlic king prawns, chips and lemon mayonnaise. Gnocci with a wild mushroom and Gorgonzola sauce, fresh rocket and Parmesan shavings. And of course, spag bol. Mains all €8.50.
Moving back to the thread title, am I correct in assuming you simply walked in off the street, that both reception doors (exterior and interior) were open, that there was no staff member at reception, and that you did not need a card of any kind to enter?
Mid-2010 will tell us a limited amount about mid-2007, but such tiny pieces of information often prove invaluable.
*&(+(+
At what time of the night was the reception door closed and people off the street could no longer come in and order a pizza?
-
Good theory but is it a fact?
Yes they used the shortcut and the pathway route leads to the lamppost and then straight across the road to the secondary reception entrance.
-
Yes they used the shortcut and the pathway route leads to the lamppost and then straight across to the secondary reception entrance.
Show me some evidence please.
-
Well I'm thankful for that clip.
I found it very useful as far as recording the actual walking distance and time taken could be seen in real time.
Thirty four steps ... for athletic young people covering that could be done in seconds.
-
Show me some evidence please.
It is well known that Madeleine used the shortcut to and from the creche. Do you think it's safe to bring 3 year old kids along main roads or use a safer pathway route straight to the secondary reception?
From memory, on Tuesday, 1 May 2007, being shown by RUSSELL, he went to pick up MADELEINE at creche using a short-cut that began at the car park opposite the secondary reception and went between the buildings, which he used to fetch and carry his daughter.
Since it was he who went to collect MADELEINE, he is sure he used the short-cut.
----- The deponent and KATE returned to the OCEAN CLUB by the short-cut and at the secondary reception they asked the lady employee if there was a vacant tennis court they could reserve.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
-
One thing that has really hit home today is that if Madeleine left by the front door there is a wall between her and the car park and she has to run along past her window, 5B, 5C to where the wall ends. So when she came out of the front door she has not got an option of turning left or right, but only an option of turning to the left.
This image shows the wall is continuous between the apartments and the car park. (https://cdn.images.dailystar.co.uk/dynamic/1/photos/752000/selfie-photographs-apartment-Madeleine-McCann-disappearance-927752.jpg)
-
The first hazard she would encounter is the step just outside the front door.
This image shows how if she did turn to the right after leaving the front door she is in a blind alley. To get to the Tapas she has to turn to the left.
Further along she would be faced with the decision of going out across the car park and around the footpath or to go further on to the gap between block 5 and block 4. The dogs had tracked her along here so she was fully familiar with going between the buildings and along the back alleyway in the daytime at least.
(https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article10102477.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/PROD-Apartment-in-Praia-da-Luz-that-Madeleine-McCann-was-taken-from.jpg)
-
There appears to be a slot beside the door knob at the reception. Whether it was working I don't know.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm
RICARDO ALEXANDRE DA LUZ OLIVEIRA says "When asked, he says that in order to enter the restaurant it is necessary to present a guest card at the restaurant reception. However, and only for this year the restaurant has been open to public from outside the resort but that in any case he does not remember having seen anyone who was not a guest having had a meal there.
When asked, he says that a few days after guests' arrival he manages to recognise them, however not all of them regularly have meals there."
If the restaurant is open to the public what does that imply? Was the door at the reception kept open so members of the public could enter?
Where is this "restaurant reception" Ricardo talks about?
-
If pizza was not to your taste, the alternatives were limited.
3 salads. Goat's cheese. Char grilled chicken and bacon. Tuna. Salads €6.50 to €8.50.
4 mains. Marinated chicken breast with a braised butter bean, vegetable and chorizo stew. Lemon and garlic king prawns, chips and lemon mayonnaise. Gnocci with a wild mushroom and Gorgonzola sauce, fresh rocket and Parmesan shavings. And of course, spag bol. Mains all €8.50.
Moving back to the thread title, am I correct in assuming you simply walked in off the street, that both reception doors (exterior and interior) were open, that there was no staff member at reception, and that you did not need a card of any kind to enter?
Mid-2010 will tell us a limited amount about mid-2007, but such tiny pieces of information often prove invaluable.
*&(+(+
Absolutely correct. Nothing to stop us, nobody in the secondary reception area. The waiters didn't challenge us or raise any eyebrows. We were elderly, middleclass and well mannerd. Maybe had we looked like yobs they might have refused to serve us. Dunno, but it was mighty quiet in there.
Nobody stopped us having a brief look around the garden area and the outside door of the creche there. We also wandered briefly into the tapas Bar. What I couldn't understand was two small tented areas .... roof but no sides. Maybe they were used for refreshments on a hot day ... shade from the sun without being enclosed perhaps.
When we are on holiday we regularly walk into other 4* and 5* hotels and we have only been turned away at one. That was Reids hotel in Madeira, where we went for afternoon tea. They said that they couldn't allow us in because my hubby was wearing (are they called?) deck shoes. They were new as were all our clothes, but only M&S, not Marshall and Snelgrove. What do you think Alice ?
We had a good laugh because it is part of the Orient Express group and we had travelled to Venice on that magnificent train a couple of years previously ... and they thought that we were OK.
-
There appears to be a slot beside the door knob at the reception. Whether it was working I don't know.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm
RICARDO ALEXANDRE DA LUZ OLIVEIRA says "When asked, he says that in order to enter the restaurant it is necessary to present a guest card at the restaurant reception. However, and only for this year the restaurant has been open to public from outside the resort but that in any case he does not remember having seen anyone who was not a guest having had a meal there.
When asked, he says that a few days after guests' arrival he manages to recognise them, however not all of them regularly have meals there."
If the restaurant is open to the public what does that imply? Was the door at the reception kept open so members of the public could enter?
Where is this "restaurant reception" Ricardo talks about?
According to RICARDO ALEXANDRE DA LUZ OLIVEIRA the restaurant was open to the public .. and that was in 2007.
I think both the outer and the inner doors were open when we ate there in 2010. It is much easier to go in when the door is ajar rather than closed. I cant remember any anxiety altho I remember wondering if there would be someone within the reception area. No-one there tho.
-
Absolutely correct. Nothing to stop us, nobody in the secondary reception area. The waiters didn't challenge us or raise any eyebrows. We were elderly, middleclass and well mannerd. Maybe had we looked like yobs they might have refused to serve us. Dunno, but it was mighty quiet in there.
Nobody stopped us having a brief look around the garden area and the outside door of the creche there. We also wandered briefly into the tapas Bar. What I couldn't understand was two small tented areas .... roof but no sides. Maybe they were used for refreshments on a hot day ... shade from the sun without being enclosed perhaps.
When we are on holiday we regularly walk into other 4* and 5* hotels and we have only been turned away at one. That was Reids hotel in Madeira, where we went for afternoon tea. They said that they couldn't allow us in because my hubby was wearing (are they called?) deck shoes. They were new as were all our clothes, but only M&S, not Marshall and Snelgrove. What do you think Alice ?
We had a good laugh because it is part of the Orient Express group and we had travelled to Venice on that magnificent train a couple of years previously ... and they thought that we were OK.
Many thanks Sadie. 8@??)(
-
Gerry on the use of the security card. "----- That that was the first time they walked altogether along the route inside and around the resort. They left by the front door, which he locked with the key, he followed the wall around and turned right, going down the side road to the resort up to the secondary reception where the entered without difficulty as they had an access card that they did not ask for but they had been given during the Check-in.
----- After they passed through the secondary reception they went to the TAPAS restaurant,..." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
and the other "In the summer, her working hours are from 10H00 to 18H00.
The bar is open exclusively to resort clients, and that control is made by means of a client card at the entrance to the bar.
When asked, she says that she does not remember anyone having entered without being authorised." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HAYLEY-CRAWFORD.htm
I find this hard to believe. "she says that she does not remember anyone having entered without being authorised".
Didn't one of the nannies make a report to the effect that she was concerned that the public had free access to the pool area and gardens and consequently she felt that this was a security lapse.
From Ocean Club's point of view I suppose they wanted to encourage non resident paying customers to visit the bar and restaurant.
-
Yes they used the shortcut and the pathway route leads to the lamppost and then straight across the road to the secondary reception entrance.
The difficulty with that is that both tracker dogs stopped at the lamp post and did not carry on towards the creche. The fact that the scent trail abruptly ends is sinister.
The other important point is that a barefooted child will leave a physical scent trail on the road which endures whereas a child wearing shoes will only leave a minimal trace behind which soon dissipates in the air.
-
Yes because of the big area being the car park they lost the scent. The first tracking dog crossed the road from the lamppost to the entrance. Madeleine had used that shortcut route from Tuesday 1 May 2007 onwards so it is no surprise that the dogs found her scent there.
-
Yes because of the big area being the car park they lost the scent. The first tracking dog crossed the road from the lamppost to the entrance. Madeleine had used that shortcut route from Tuesday 1 May 2007 onwards so it is no surprise that the dogs found her scent there.
My friend who has considerable experience with tracking dogs in hunting, says a good dog is able to work out direction of travel too. You could imagine this as being essential e.g. dog tracking a rabbit wants to know which direction it went. So she thought the scent would be stronger where the trail is newer so the dog notices and increasing scent trail when moving in the right direction.
If this is the case the dog is looking for the trail that appears to confirm Madeleine leaving the apartment rather than one where she is arriving at the apartment as you describe.
-
Madeleine left the apartment using the pathway route and crossed the road to the lamppost and used the shortcut route to the creche. Gerry took her there on 3 May 2007.
Subsequently an attempt was made to reconstruct the route taken by Madeleine by giving the dogs a blanket/towel used by her, but the results were not significant, given that the dogs are more trained for use in rural areas rather than urban or populated areas, the existence of more odours in the air making it impossible for the tracker dog to identify/locate the “target smell”. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
3 May 2007
After breakfast they got dressed and left the apartment by the main door. All children went walking. The veranda door was closed and locked; she doesn't know whether the main door was locked or unlocked.
After leaving the apartment they left the twins at the creche next to the Tapas; at the same time she supposes that Gerry took Madeleine to the creche next to the 24-hour reception area. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm
3 May 2007
They made their way on foot by the usual route to the creche next to the TAPAS where they left the twins, and, while KATE stayed to play tennis he took MADELEINE to her creche, through the short-cut. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
-
Madeleine left the apartment using the pathway route and crossed the road to the lamppost and used the shortcut route to the creche. Gerry took her there on 3 May 2007.
Subsequently an attempt was made to reconstruct the route taken by Madeleine by giving the dogs a blanket/towel used by her, but the results were not significant, given that the dogs are more trained for use in rural areas rather than urban or populated areas, the existence of more odours in the air making it impossible for the tracker dog to identify/locate the “target smell”. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
.... snip ....
OK I have confirmed that the quote from the legal summary included the words "towel/blanket". Now was that towel and blanket or are they not able to distinguish between a towel or the blanket?
-
OK I have confirmed that the quote from the legal summary included the words "towel/blanket". Now was that towel and blanket or are they not able to distinguish between a towel or the blanket?
They used both. The pink blanket was handed out first and the towel was given to the second team to arrive. All the dogs followed the same route on three different occasions.
The pink blanket was given to the GNR dog handler at around 2,30am;
They were given a pink/orange blanket that the child had been covered with in her bed.......His dog's speciality is patrolling (Maintenance of Public Order) although the dog also has some training in "tracking".
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLOS-LACAO.htm
Trained search and rescue dogs arrived from near Lisbon on 4th and;
He remembers that on the 4th of May of the current year, around 23H00, they attempted to tentatively identify and thus reconstruct the path taken by the missing minor. They gave the dogs a Turkish bath towel which was supposedly used by the child in question. This operation was realised by two different dogs.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm
These dogs were used again;
Yesterday (08.05.2007) around 23H45, this search action was repeated but this time the dogs were sent into blocks 5 and 4 of the ‘Ocean Club’ resort......The initial diligence carried out with first sniffer dog, after having sniffed the towel used in the previous operation
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm
-
They used both. The pink blanket was handed out first and the towel was given to the second team to arrive. All the dogs followed the same route on three different occasions.
The pink blanket was given to the GNR dog handler at around 2,30am;
They were given a pink/orange blanket that the child had been covered with in her bed.......His dog's speciality is patrolling (Maintenance of Public Order) although the dog also has some training in "tracking".
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLOS-LACAO.htm
Trained search and rescue dogs arrived from near Lisbon on 4th and;
He remembers that on the 4th of May of the current year, around 23H00, they attempted to tentatively identify and thus reconstruct the path taken by the missing minor. They gave the dogs a Turkish bath towel which was supposedly used by the child in question. This operation was realised by two different dogs.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm
These dogs were used again;
Yesterday (08.05.2007) around 23H45, this search action was repeated but this time the dogs were sent into blocks 5 and 4 of the ‘Ocean Club’ resort......The initial diligence carried out with first sniffer dog, after having sniffed the towel used in the previous operation
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm
So how do you feel when you read the final report? "Subsequently an attempt was made to reconstruct the route taken by Madeleine by giving the dogs a blanket/towel used by her, but the results were not significant, given that the dogs are more trained for use in rural areas rather than urban or populated areas, the existence of more odours in the air making it impossible for the tracker dog to identify/locate the “target smell”." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
If three teams of dogs followed the same track, to me that is significant and the fact they didn't locate the target, suggest to me that an abduction is more than possible. For the trail to stop suggest the target has been lifted up at that point.
-
Berry/Balu were near there on their balcony and heard nowt. Fenn heard her crying loudly but not a sound that night. It doesn't add up to woke and wandered screaming for her daddy.
-
Berry/Balu were near there on their balcony and heard nowt. Fenn heard her crying loudly but not a sound that night. It doesn't add up to woke and wandered screaming for her daddy.
Only you have determined that she was screaming. I just think of her being determined to go and find her mummy.
-
Since I have ascertained that there was a possibility that the reception door was shut I was curious if there was any evidence that the Tapas friends were aware of this. I was thinking if the door was open they would look on inside as well as the outside. If they knew it was closed and needed a security card to open it, they would tend to look in areas on the outside of the Ocean Club reception area.
This from Russell's rogatory "When Kate raised the alarm she didn’t get to the table as the area was all enclosed, she was at the start of the path she shouted across to us. We ran out through the reception we were all in a panic some people went into the flat I stayed outside, I then conducted a quick search of the immediate area with Matt, Dave and possibly Gerry. We searched a cul-de-sac area which I would describe as being a passage way at the front of the block on the car park side. We went on to search the gardens and patios. Then we went downhill towards the centre. On the second search we went to the shopping centre and then towards the tennis courts. We searched around the back of the tennis courts."
We searched a cul-de-sac area which I would describe as being a passage way at the front of the block on the car park side. - outside of the Ocean Club reception area
We went on to search the gardens and patios. - outside of the Ocean Club reception area
Then we went downhill towards the centre. - outside of the Ocean Club reception area
On the second search we went to the shopping centre - outside of the Ocean Club reception area
and then towards the tennis courts. - outside of the Ocean Club reception area
We searched around the back of the tennis courts. - outside of the Ocean Club reception area.
-
if the door was wide open you would think it was just as likely Madeleine was lost within the Tapas area itself. Had she gone to the play ground or the kids pool? Had she slipped and fallen into the main pool? was she sleeping on a deck chair on the far side of the pool area? Why would the only look on the outside areas of the reception door?
-
if the door was wide open you would think it was just as likely Madeleine was lost within the Tapas area itself. Had she gone to the play ground or the kids pool? Had she slipped and fallen into the main pool? was she sleeping on a deck chair on the far side of the pool area? Why would the only look on the outside areas of the reception door?
In my opinion the very first areas to be searched for a missing child would be paddling or swimming pools and I would be astounded if all searchers and staff using Mark Warner missing child protocols didn't take that into consideration.
-
In my opinion the very first areas to be searched for a missing child would be paddling or swimming pools and I would be astounded if all searchers and staff using Mark Warner missing child protocols didn't take that into consideration.
I am sure the Mark Warner staff had every area covered but I'm principally looking at the Tapas 9 and where they looked immediately afterwards.
I too was astounded the the Tapas friends didn't check the pool.
-
I am sure the Mark Warner staff had every area covered but I'm principally looking at the Tapas 9 and where they looked immediately afterwards.
I too was astounded the the Tapas friends didn't check the pool.
Given the pools proximity to the apartment surely it would have been one of the first places to be checked in case the missing child had fallen in.
-
Since I have ascertained that there was a possibility that the reception door was shut I was curious if there was any evidence that the Tapas friends were aware of this. I was thinking if the door was open they would look on inside as well as the outside. If they knew it was closed and needed a security card to open it, they would tend to look in areas on the outside of the Ocean Club reception area.
This from Russell's rogatory "When Kate raised the alarm she didn’t get to the table as the area was all enclosed, she was at the start of the path she shouted across to us. We ran out through the reception we were all in a panic some people went into the flat I stayed outside, I then conducted a quick search of the immediate area with Matt, Dave and possibly Gerry. We searched a cul-de-sac area which I would describe as being a passage way at the front of the block on the car park side. We went on to search the gardens and patios. Then we went downhill towards the centre. On the second search we went to the shopping centre and then towards the tennis courts. We searched around the back of the tennis courts."
We searched a cul-de-sac area which I would describe as being a passage way at the front of the block on the car park side. - outside of the Ocean Club reception area
We went on to search the gardens and patios. - outside of the Ocean Club reception area
Then we went downhill towards the centre. - outside of the Ocean Club reception area
On the second search we went to the shopping centre - outside of the Ocean Club reception area
and then towards the tennis courts. - outside of the Ocean Club reception area
We searched around the back of the tennis courts. - outside of the Ocean Club reception area.
Are all the, "- outside the Ocean Club reception area" from Russells Rog? ... or are they your words, Rob?
Cos, I dont think we can be sure which parking area Russell means
1) The parking at the front of block 5 ? ... or
2) Opposite the Tapas reception area?
The fact that more than one person searched the Tapas area, points to the fact that the Tapas Reception building entrance had its doors open.
IMO, No point in searching where Madeleine could NOT have gained entrance, was there ?
-
I am sure the Mark Warner staff had every area covered but I'm principally looking at the Tapas 9 and where they looked immediately afterwards.
I too was astounded the the Tapas friends didn't check the pool.
IMO Some of them did. Cant remember which.
-
I have the impression (from photos) that the area including the pools were illuminated at night. Is this correct?
-
I am sure the Mark Warner staff had every area covered but I'm principally looking at the Tapas 9 and where they looked immediately afterwards.
I too was astounded the the Tapas friends didn't check the pool.
I did a sweep of the err the pool err and the area you know immediately around err the Ocean Club. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
He refers to the movements of two men from said group, David Payne and Matthew, who appeared to be searching the gardens the areas near the bar. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm
GNR Officer J. M. B. R. refers to a situation when he was searching outside, near the pool, that someone from the OC whom he cannot identify, passed him a mobile phone, as a British Consulate employee who spoke in Portuguese, wanted to talk to the authorities. Upon speaking to him, he told him that the investigation and subsequent actions were under the responsibility of the PJ.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOSE_ROQUE.htm
-
So how do you feel when you read the final report? "Subsequently an attempt was made to reconstruct the route taken by Madeleine by giving the dogs a blanket/towel used by her, but the results were not significant, given that the dogs are more trained for use in rural areas rather than urban or populated areas, the existence of more odours in the air making it impossible for the tracker dog to identify/locate the “target smell”." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
If three teams of dogs followed the same track, to me that is significant and the fact they didn't locate the target, suggest to me that an abduction is more than possible. For the trail to stop suggest the target has been lifted up at that point.
That quote related to the third attempt, on 8th.
-
That quote related to the third attempt, on 8th.
I find it truly remarkable that tracking can be done so long after the event.
-
Given the pools proximity to the apartment surely it would have been one of the first places to be checked in case the missing child had fallen in.
You would think so but does anyone specifically say they checked it in the first 10 minutes after the alarm is raised?
-
Are all the, "- outside the Ocean Club reception area" from Russells Rog? ... or are they your words, Rob?
Cos, I dont think we can be sure which parking area Russell means
1) The parking at the front of block 5 ? ... or
2) Opposite the Tapas reception area?
The fact that more than one person searched the Tapas area, points to the fact that the Tapas Reception building entrance had its doors open.
IMO, No point in searching where Madeleine could NOT have gained entrance, was there ?
Sorry for not making it quite clear but Russell's quote finished at the speech marks, and those repeat line lines was me emphasising the areas checked were all outside of the gate.
Quote from Sadie:
"The fact that more than one person searched the Tapas area, points to the fact that the Tapas Reception building entrance had its doors open.
IMO, No point in searching where Madeleine could NOT have gained entrance, was there ?"
Sadie, I was wondering if you have got that bit correct? It seems to me you should be saying "the door was shut rather than open". No point in searching where Madeleine could NOT have gained entrance, was there ? only makes sense if the door was shut. But Kate's concept of Madeleine finding them at the Tapas was dependent on the reception door being open at all times. Kate's logic fails big time if someone shut the reception door!
-
I did a sweep of the err the pool err and the area you know immediately around err the Ocean Club. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
He refers to the movements of two men from said group, David Payne and Matthew, who appeared to be searching the gardens the areas near the bar. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm
GNR Officer J. M. B. R. refers to a situation when he was searching outside, near the pool, that someone from the OC whom he cannot identify, passed him a mobile phone, as a British Consulate employee who spoke in Portuguese, wanted to talk to the authorities. Upon speaking to him, he told him that the investigation and subsequent actions were under the responsibility of the PJ.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOSE_ROQUE.htm
Look; if the GNR have arrived that is nearly one hour later. We are not really discussing what happened one hour later, but what happened in the first 10 minutes or so before Matt went to call the police.
But the other quotes are really important and I thank you for locating those two.
-
David and Matt were seen searching the tapas area e.g. gardens, pools, play area, tennis courts in their first searches after the alarm. After checking David told Dianne to leave the table where she was sitting on her own. Dianne left and went to apartment 5A where she found Kate alone with the twins.
-
David and Matt were seen searching the tapas area e.g. gardens, pools, play area, tennis courts in their first searches after the alarm. After checking David told Dianne to leave the table where she was sitting on her own. Dianne left and went to apartment 5A where she found Kate alone with the twins.
I'll check out what you have said. Some of it doesn't gel with my understanding.
-
I started, you wanted to check that your own two are alright so I, some say I ran up to our apartment and checked they were alright. Dianne had err had said, Fiona had asked Dianne to stay at the table, at the Tapas just in case err you know Madeleine wandered by or you know and thought that was the best place and I say at some stage I went back and asked Dianne to just, could you go and stay with the children. I did a sweep of the err the pool err and the area you know immediately around err the Ocean Club.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
Err so I, I stayed at the table in case Madeleine had wandered off and she might come looking round the restaurant. Err this is when it gets all a bit confusing because I’ve no idea how long I, I stayed there. I don’t, I don’t think it was that long and I know that at one point, again, this wasn’t in my original statement, Dave did come back to the table and say can, can you just go back to the apartment.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
-
I started, you wanted to check that your own two are alright so I, some say I ran up to our apartment and checked they were alright. Dianne had err had said, Fiona had asked Dianne to stay at the table, at the Tapas just in case err you know Madeleine wandered by or you know and thought that was the best place and I say at some stage I went back and asked Dianne to just, could you go and stay with the children. I did a sweep of the err the pool err and the area you know immediately around err the Ocean Club.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
Err so I, I stayed at the table in case Madeleine had wandered off and she might come looking round the restaurant. Err this is when it gets all a bit confusing because I’ve no idea how long I, I stayed there. I don’t, I don’t think it was that long and I know that at one point, again, this wasn’t in my original statement, Dave did come back to the table and say can, can you just go back to the apartment.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
Thanks for that clarification. I still find it a bit confusing for Dianne herself goes to 5A and then goes back for her stuff and then later goes to the Payne's apartment. So if that was the sequence it clearly was quite a bit later that David does the check around the Tapas areas.
-
David is searching that area when Dianne was still at the table. She left the table only about 5 minutes after Kate raised the alarm so he checked that area first in his searches for Madeleine.
-
David is searching that area when Dianne was still at the table. She left the table only about 5 minutes after Kate raised the alarm so he checked that area first in his searches for Madeleine.
Gerry searched the tapas area too, didn't he?
-
David is searching that area when Dianne was still at the table. She left the table only about 5 minutes after Kate raised the alarm so he checked that area first in his searches for Madeleine.
Is that what Russell said earlier? Russell Matt Dave and Gerry search all those outside areas first http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8957.msg439649#msg439649
So they can't be in two places at once.
-
Sorry for not making it quite clear but Russell's quote finished at the speech marks, and those repeat line lines was me emphasising the areas checked were all outside of the gate.
Quote from Sadie:
"The fact that more than one person searched the Tapas area, points to the fact that the Tapas Reception building entrance had its doors open.
IMO, No point in searching where Madeleine could NOT have gained entrance, was there ?"
Sadie, I was wondering if you have got that bit correct? It seems to me you should be saying "the door was shut rather than open". No point in searching where Madeleine could NOT have gained entrance, was there ? only makes sense if the door was shut. But Kate's concept of Madeleine finding them at the Tapas was dependent on the reception door being open at all times. Kate's logic fails big time if someone shut the reception door!
Several people searched Rob, so that points to the fact that the group were aware that the reception doors were open.
Had they been closed, Madeleine could not have entered ... so no point in searching there.
-
Gerry searched the tapas area too, didn't he?
He never said that in any of his interviews. He said he went to main reception. One tapas staff claimed to see him but he could be mistaken as David and Matt were also seen searching there. Russell said he was searching the apartment gardens.
--- When asked why instead of scouring the land next to the complex they stayed inside the apartment, he replies that it did not happen that way.
While the guests and employees of the resort were searching, he went to the main Reception to check whether they had called the Police, and told Kate to wait inside the apartment. After going to the Reception he went back to the apartment where he stayed in the living room and in their bedroom.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm
-
Several people searched Rob, so that points to the fact that the group were aware that the reception doors were open.
Had they been closed, Madeleine could not have entered ... so no point in searching there.
That could be right but the timing of the searches suggests to me they know the door was shut for a while. The thing then is someone knows they shut the door and another person must know they had opened it before Kate's check.
Russell returns just prior to Kate's check so maybe he was aware that the door was closed. Kate does not seem to be aware of this.
Was this door ever closed late in the evening during the week before.
Why weren't the GNR dog search teams not issued with an access card?
I think we need to look in Russell's statement to see if he opened the door. Every family was issued with an access card. Did they bring the access card with them while they went to the Tapas?
Gerry makes it clear these cards were issued. Why don't the others mention it?
-
If the Tapas 9 thought Tannerman had abducted Madeleine you would think all the searches would have been around the back of block 6 and down towards Robert Murat's place. But Jane had not told them about her sighting at that stage, so why not, what was slowing that down?
If my theory is correct, that the reception door was closed (locked from the outside) for a period the Tapas friends seem to, by their search pattern, confirm some sort of belief that Madeleine possibly woke and wandered in the areas that they searched first. OK the search area increased beyond that a little later once she was found in the top priority areas. But as we all do when looking for anything lost there is a reason to look in certain places first.
-
Several people searched Rob, so that points to the fact that the group were aware that the reception doors were open.
Had they been closed, Madeleine could not have entered ... so no point in searching there.
Sadie if you think they were open at all times and the never altered, that must be somewhat faulty logic for what would be preventing even the wind blowing them shut at sometime during that evening?
Gerry uses his card to gain access to the Tapas area.
The next night the security door was closed at 10:30 or before.
Presumably it was someone's task to make sure the door was shut by a certain time to stop new guests turning up late, well at the very least someone had to close it when the Tapas restaurant had finished for the night. No staff member mentions the task of locking up for the night.
-
I am looking through all the Tapas 7 statements for references to the access cards issued on their arrival.
Matt says: "For this reason, he does not know the nature of that criteria, all the more since, similar to the others, he only found out which flat he had been allotted when he arrived at the resort - the time at which they were each given the keys to their corresponding flats, one key per couple (that being a metal key, not an access card)."
No other mention of the access card. The word "security was not associated with the door at the secondary reception.
-
Sadie if you think they were open at all times and the never altered, that must be somewhat faulty logic for what would be preventing even the wind blowing them shut at sometime during that evening?
-snip-
it is perfectly feasible that some sort of stay might have been on the wall or floor to hold the door open.
I can't remember if that was the case, but the door didn't move in any breeze whilst we were there. I must admit that I cant remember any breeze tho. ... it was 7 years ago when we visited !
-
it is perfectly feasible that some sort of stay might have been on the wall or floor to hold the door open.
I can't remember if that was the case, but the door didn't move in any breeze whilst we were there. I must admit that I cant remember any breeze tho. ... it was 7 years ago when we visited !
In the video we see Gerry going through the Tapas Reception with the door held open. https://youtu.be/dXtBWNCFt7U?t=460
-
In the video we see Gerry going through the Tapas Reception with the door held open. https://youtu.be/dXtBWNCFt7U?t=460
I cant see what ever is holding it tho'. Can you?
-
I cant see what ever is holding it tho'. Can you?
I thought it might jog your memory.
-
I thought it might jog your memory.
Soz, but it didn't.
-
My friend who has considerable experience with tracking dogs in hunting, says a good dog is able to work out direction of travel too. You could imagine this as being essential e.g. dog tracking a rabbit wants to know which direction it went. So she thought the scent would be stronger where the trail is newer so the dog notices and increasing scent trail when moving in the right direction.
If this is the case the dog is looking for the trail that appears to confirm Madeleine leaving the apartment rather than one where she is arriving at the apartment as you describe.
On the Thursday Kate and the kids entered the apartment via the patio door. So Pathfinder's concept the dogs were tracking Madeleine returning home appears at odds.
Gerry McCann 10th May,2007.
"The dinner ended at 17h30 the time at which the employee supervision ended and the parents took over watching the children in the play area until 18h30. Following this they returned to the apartment, the deponent opened the main door with his key and, then, the rear door through which KATE and the children entered."
-
"Beginning to follow the track using Rex, from the door of apartment 5 A (the place where the girl had been sleeping) he would always head in the direction of Block 4, leaving block 5 the dog would turn to the left, pass by a metal access door to a path existing between the apartments blocks to the leisure area (restaurant, pool and playground). " from GNR Report
Subject: Report of Searches Related to the Disappearance of Madeleine McCann
It seems that the access gate between block 4 and 5 remains open at all times.
-
The translation from Portuguese to English hasn't helped in the understanding of this statement:
". States that the entire department finishes work at 18H00, but at that time of the facts were not to be found in the immediate areas. She further adds that during the previous days, she did not notice anything relevant which called her attention, nor any one strange. She also states that the proper characteristics of the Tourist Complex make her constantly come across various people, who are related to, or not related to, the complex, without any control of access;..."
is this what she says?
"She constantly comes across various people without any control of access." People without access cards?
"She constantly comes across various people without access cards."
-
Looking various issues regarding access and I came across this fact
198 to 199 External diligence at Ocean Club
TRANSLATIONS BY INES
01-Processos I, pages 198-199
"Some of the residences, belonging to the establishment, were not checked because they were unoccupied and there was no key available to access them. These were individual residences, that did not have Ocean Club maintenance contracts;"
-
The translation from Portuguese to English hasn't helped in the understanding of this statement:
". States that the entire department finishes work at 18H00, but at that time of the facts were not to be found in the immediate areas. She further adds that during the previous days, she did not notice anything relevant which called her attention, nor any one strange. She also states that the proper characteristics of the Tourist Complex make her constantly come across various people, who are related to, or not related to, the complex, without any control of access;..."
is this what she says?
"She constantly comes across various people without any control of access." People without access cards?
"She constantly comes across various people without access cards."
I had a look, Robert. I think she's referring to the fact that because of the nature of the resort, there is no monitoring of people moving around (associated with the resort or not). As in the opposite of a fully gated self-contained resort.
-
Looking various issues regarding access and I came across this fact
198 to 199 External diligence at Ocean Club
TRANSLATIONS BY INES
01-Processos I, pages 198-199
"Some of the residences, belonging to the establishment, were not checked because they were unoccupied and there was no key available to access them. These were individual residences, that did not have Ocean Club maintenance contracts;"
Yes, if the owners didn't live there or were simply away and didn't have a maintenance conrtract, there was no available key. The GNR would have needed a search warrant and presumably forced entry.
-
Yes, if the owners didn't live there or were simply away and didn't have a maintenance conrtract, there was no available key. The GNR would have needed a search warrant and presumably forced entry.
So apartment 5C may not have been examined even though there were people at the premises that day. That should have been enough to get as search warrant.
-
So apartment 5C may not have been examined even though there were people at the premises that day. That should have been enough to get as search warrant.
I'm not sure if the GNR could have applied for search warrants themselves, or whether it would have had to have been the PJ.
But, yes, the apparent sighting of two guys (?) at the flat has often intrigued me. It could be quite innocent, obviously, but As has the the flat with the rotting food (that can happen - it's happened to me), but I don't know if anyone every got to the bottom of that.
There were also a few others lurking in the files, from memory, that they wanted to check around Luz but didn't (or didn't for a long time) as they couldn't locate the owners.
-
I'm not sure if the GNR could have applied for search warrants themselves, or whether it would have had to have been the PJ.
But, yes, the apparent sighting of two guys (?) at the flat has often intrigued me. It could be quite innocent, obviously, but As has the the flat with the rotting food (that can happen - it's happened to me), but I don't know if anyone every got to the bottom of that.
There were also a few others lurking in the files, from memory, that they wanted to check around Luz but didn't (or didn't for a long time) as they couldn't locate the owners.
Those two men have never come forward AFAIK. Even if they were innocent tourists - with the worldwide publicity this case attracted, one cannot help but wonder why.
IMO
-
Those two men have never come forward AFAIK. Even if they were innocent tourists - with the worldwide publicity this case attracted, one cannot help but wonder why.
IMO
Unless there is another part of the file that has not been released.
-
Looking at this statement http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm
"When asked, he says that the meals served are not restricted to guests of the resort and that guests can invite people from outside of the resort. In any case the witness says that it is not usual for people from outside of the resort to dine there." For these people to enter the area without an access card the security door at the mini-reception would have to remain open till all the guests have arrived.
-
A reminder to all posters that appropriate language should be used when commenting. Far too many posts still require moderator intervention so please consider carefully what you post. It is always useful to deploy the preview option before making your comments public.
I do not want to stifle debate but if individual members continue to flaunt our rules I will intercede.
Duty Admin