UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: faithlilly on March 04, 2018, 12:27:37 AM
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When discussing the cadaver dog alerts in 5a we are constantly told by supporters that any alerts are worthless without forensic confirmation of death. Can I ask what kind of forensic corroboration do they believe would categorically confirm death if the missing child had lived in the apartment for six days before her disappearance ?
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A human cadaver suspected or known to have had a link to 5A.
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A confession would likely help.
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Sticking to the new doggy thread might have been less confusing ... then confusion is good is it not?
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A confession would likely help.
I think this is what the PJ were after. So how do you get a confession?
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I think this is what the PJ were after. So how do you get a confession?
I don't think that this is a possibility, unless it's death bed confession. This could take some time.
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When discussing the cadaver dog alerts in 5a we are constantly told by supporters that any alerts are worthless without forensic confirmation of death. Can I ask what kind of forensic corroboration do they believe would categorically confirm death if the missing child had lived in the apartment for six days before her disappearance ?
Sufficient bodily fluids, or flesh, from the exact spot identified by Eddie for the forensic team to be able to confirm that it came from Madeleine
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Sufficient bodily fluids, or flesh, from the exact spot identified by Eddie for the forensic team to be able to confirm that it came from Madeleine
Certainly the evidence of a crime scene would be required.
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When discussing the cadaver dog alerts in 5a we are constantly told by supporters that any alerts are worthless without forensic confirmation of death. Can I ask what kind of forensic corroboration do they believe would categorically confirm death if the missing child had lived in the apartment for six days before her disappearance ?
again this is a question that you would need to ask grime...What grime has said is that he trains the dogs to recover evidence and its logical to assume therefore that that is there role...eddie is an EVR dog...an enhanced victim recovery dog....he finds dead bodies
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A human cadaver suspected or known to have had a link to 5A.
Given that Scotland Yard can't confirm if Madeleine left 5a alive, there might be your suspected cadaver.
Not forgetting proven fact no6.
6. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6307.0
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Given that Scotland Yard can't confirm if Madeleine left 5a alive, there might be your suspected cadaver.
Not forgetting proven fact no6.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6307.0
it is not a proven fact...fact...but shows how mistaken the portuguese court is
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...but shows how mistaken the portuguese court is
How right you are given that link is to the one where the first award was to the McCanns.
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How right you are given that link is to the one where the first award was to the McCanns.
so its not aproven fact...no doubt as a sceptic you are another who mistakenly believes that the alert confirms cadaver odour
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A human cadaver suspected or known to have had a link to 5A.
Not forensics.
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A confession would likely help.
Not forensics.
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so its not aproven fact...no doubt as a sceptic you are another who mistakenly believes that the alert confirms cadaver odour
Take it up with the Portuguese court,they stated that is a proven fact,I'd sooner rely on that than your view.
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Sufficient bodily fluids, or flesh, from the exact spot identified by Eddie for the forensic team to be able to confirm that it came from Madeleine
Madeleine had lived in the apartment for six days so any number of innocent scenarios may have resulted in blood etc being deposited.
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again this is a question that you would need to ask grime...What grime has said is that he trains the dogs to recover evidence and its logical to assume therefore that that is there role...eddie is an EVR dog...an enhanced victim recovery dog....he finds dead bodies
That is precisely what the dog is not trained to do. Eddie is trained to find a scent. It is up to the police to recover evidence.
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Take it up with the Portuguese court,they stated that is a proven fact,I'd sooner rely on that than your view.
you can rely on what you like but we know from the expert its not proven...and if you think it is you are mistaken.
the portuguese courts have a strange idea of what a proven fact is...in the cipriano case they accepted bloodn in the fridge belonged to joana even though it was never tested...thats another fact
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That is precisely what the dog is not trained to do. Eddie is trained to find a scent. It is up to the police to recover evidence.
I have a quote from grime...eddie is trained to help recover forensic evidence...heis a EVR dog..
the quote..
I develop methods of detecting forensically recoverable evidence by the use of dogs and facilitate training.
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I have a quote from grime...eddie is trained to help recover forensic evidence...heis a EVR dog
‘Help recover’ by finding the scent he is trained to. It is up to the police then to harvest any available forensics.
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Not forensics.
I thought a Confession might lead to a body, which could lead to Forensics. Although I don't think that Madeleine is dead.
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‘Help recover’ by finding the scent he is trained to. It is up to the police then to harvest any available forensics.
They can only harvest it if the evidence exists.....Eddies value is in the evidence that he helps find...there is no value in the scent alone...no inference can be
drawn from it according to Harrison. There is absolutely no way of knowing what eddie is alerting to without any evidence being recovered
Eddie is claimed to be some sort of superdog...grime has provided us with a cv of sorts...its a very light cv...apart from the discovery of Atraccta Harron eddie does not seem to have been much help in any other case . 37 deployments over 5 years...thats seven per year. im not trying to knock eddie just getting some measure of his real achievements...Amaral claimed in his book eddie had helped solve 200 cases...that ismore than a little misleading to his supporters
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Not forensics.
A body would have to be forensically identified.
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EDdie is used to help recover evidence...the alerts themselves are not evidence
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I thought a Confession might lead to a body, which could lead to Forensics. Although I don't think that Madeleine is dead.
Supporters claim that forensics are needed to confirm that Eddie’s alert was to a cadaver. I asked what kind of forensics would there be in 5a that couldn’t be explained by the missing child living there for 6 days. I have yet to have an answer.
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Supporters claim that forensics are needed to confirm that Eddie’s alert was to a cadaver. I asked what kind of forensics would there be in 5a that couldn’t be explained by the missing child living there for 6 days. I have yet to have an answer.
it isnt supporters who claim this...its fact stated by Grime
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EDdie is used to help recover evidence...the alerts themselves are not evidence
The alerts are indicative and unfortunately, if building a case against the McCanns, as the missing child had lived in 5a for six days, any forensics gathered would be of little use.
It is rather like the PJ’s alleged incompetence, it works both for and against the McCanns, depending on your persuasion.
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it isnt supporters who claim this...its fact stated by Grime
Indeed. So what forensics would categorically prove that a death had occurred in the apartment rather than the child had simply lived there for six days ?
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Indeed. So what forensics would categorically prove that a death had occurred in the apartment rather than the child had simply lived there for six days ?
again that is a question you would need to ask the expert...Grime
the fact you wish to avoid is that what you have stated is untrue...there is no confirmation of cadaver odour
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Supporters claim that forensics are needed to confirm that Eddie’s alert was to a cadaver. I asked what kind of forensics would there be in 5a that couldn’t be explained by the missing child living there for 6 days. I have yet to have an answer.
Nothing that I care to mention. But since there was nothing, then it all seems bit pointless.
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Indeed. So what forensics would categorically prove that a death had occurred in the apartment rather than the child had simply lived there for six days ?
Had she been dismembered there could chunks of flesh, evidence of massive haemorrhage, cleaning of surfaces, blood stained clothing in the washing machine, photos of the cadaver.
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Had she been dismembered there could chunks of flesh, evidence of massive haemorrhage, cleaning of surfaces, blood stained clothing in the washing machine, photos of the cadaver.
cerebro spinal fluid would be an indication of a possible head injury
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Had she been dismembered there could chunks of flesh, evidence of massive haemorrhage, cleaning of surfaces, blood stained clothing in the washing machine, photos of the cadaver.
Hell's bells, don't mention dismembering. some on here seem to have have difficulty simply coping with the concept of Madeleine being dead.
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again that is a question you would need to ask the expert...Grime
the fact you wish to avoid is that what you have stated is untrue...there is no confirmation of cadaver odour
‘Suggestive of cadaver odour contaminant ‘. I think Grime has spoken.
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Hell's bells, don't mention dismembering. some on here seem to have have difficulty simply coping with the concept of Madeleine being dead.
Like if she passed peacefully in her sleep there wouldn't be much evidence.
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cerebro spinal fluid would be an indication of a possible head injury
Not necessarily.
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Like if she passed peacefully in her sleep there wouldn't be much evidence.
And little likelihood of dismembering a corpse.
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And little likelihood of dismembering a corpse.
Depends on your mood at the time!
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When discussing the cadaver dog alerts in 5a we are constantly told by supporters that any alerts are worthless without forensic confirmation of death. Can I ask what kind of forensic corroboration do they believe would categorically confirm death if the missing child had lived in the apartment for six days before her disappearance ?
Blood belonging to Madeleine.
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Not necessarily.
What else? OK Lumbar puncture?
Blood belonging to Madeleine.
No that could just be a bloody nose, kids get them all the time.
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Blood belonging to Madeleine.
Madeleine could have innocently shed blood.
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‘Suggestive of cadaver odour contaminant ‘. I think Grime has spoken.
He can make as many suggestions as he likes but there was no forensic confirmation, no evidence which corroborates the alerts.
Madeleine could have innocently shed blood.
But then you'd expect the parents to know about that?
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Not necessarily.
why else would CBS be present
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‘Suggestive of cadaver odour contaminant ‘. I think Grime has spoken.
he has spoken but you dont seem to understand what he said...he used the word suggestive not confirms...he doesnt say how suggestive....
the FACT is Grime has not said the alerts confirm the presence of cadaver as you seem to think
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he has spoken but you dont seem to understand what he said...he used the word suggestive not confirms...he doesnt say how suggestive....
the FACT is Grime has not said the alerts confirm the presence of cadaver as you seem to think
As Madeleine had lived in 5a for six days it is quite possible that any forensics harvested would not categorically prove a cadaver had been there. This was the problem the PJ had.
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As Madeleine had lived in 5a for six days it is quite possible that any forensics harvested would not categorically prove a cadaver had been there. This was the problem the PJ had.
So no confirmation of cadaver as you have claimed
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As Madeleine had lived in 5a for six days it is quite possible that any forensics harvested would not categorically prove a cadaver had been there. This was the problem the PJ had.
IMO Grime should have asked for scent pads to be placed in the wardrobe area where Eddie alerted to absorb any odours for testing. The wardrobe should also have been dismantled & preserved for future scientific advances. Eddie should also have been given the opportunity to inspect the area behind & under the wardrobe.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4581006/ an interesting read.
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So no confirmation of cadaver as you have claimed
Cite please?
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Cite please?
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How can I provide a cite for something that has not happened... Grime has not confirmed it... And he's the expert... faith seems to think he has... He obviously hasnt
faith has provided her cite... And it confirmed nothing
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When discussing the cadaver dog alerts in 5a we are constantly told by supporters that any alerts are worthless without forensic confirmation of death. Can I ask what kind of forensic corroboration do they believe would categorically confirm death if the missing child had lived in the apartment for six days before her disappearance ?
Not sure what you mean, Faith, particularly by the last part. You're not from the "death-on-Sunday" or "cloned" brigade, are you?
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Not sure what you mean, Faith, particularly by the last part. You're not from the "death-on-Sunday" or "cloned" brigade, are you?
Perish the thought Carana. The point I am making is that even if forensic evidence such as blood was found in the apartment a simple explanation for that is available ie Madeleine lived there for a short time. In short forensics have very little value either way in this case.
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How can I provide a cite for something that has not happened... Grime has not confirmed it... And he's the expert... faith seems to think he has... He obviously hasnt
faith has provided her cite... And it confirmed nothing
It was the "as you have claimed" bit that I wanted a cite for. You accused someone of making a claim and didn't give a cite for it.
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I am simply pointing out, as I have already done, that forensic evidence would not prove whether or not a cadaver had lain in the apartment. That was part of the PJ’s problem and could indeed have worked in the McCanns favour.
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I am simply pointing out, as I have already done, that forensic evidence would not prove whether or not a cadaver had lain in the apartment. That was part of the PJ’s problem and could indeed have worked in the McCanns favour.
It doesn't alter the fact that the, alerts are not evidence of death in the apartment unless corroborated...
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I am simply pointing out, as I have already done, that forensic evidence would not prove whether or not a cadaver had lain in the apartment. That was part of the PJ’s problem and could indeed have worked in the McCanns favour.
So are you admitting GA jumped the gun with his claims simply because he had no evidence to back it up? OK the SC can say he was entitled to his opinion, but it always sounded like he was presenting it as a fact not an opinion.
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Perish the thought Carana. The point I am making is that even if forensic evidence such as blood was found in the apartment a simple explanation for that is available ie Madeleine lived there for a short time. In short forensics have very little value either way in this case.
Ok. (Sigh of relief LOL).
Hmmm. No, I don't think that forensics would necessarily have had no value - it would depend on what was found and where, IMO.
My perspective is whether she could have died in that flat (whoever was responsible). For all anyone knows, it could have been a panicked burglar, for example.
Even if a speck of blood with a 100% match to M's profile had been found somewhere (which it wasn't), that could be of interest... or perhaps not, depending on where it was, and how much.
A blood spatter (which doesn't correspond to reality, despite a site's link with those words) all over the walls and / or ceiling or blobs in some inexcplicable places would be a different matter.
If there had been any suspicious decomposing biological material of any type, with a full DNA profile, then that would be a different matter as well, obviously, and would merit careful forensic analysis.
As it happens, there wasn't.
That leaves unexplained dog alerts. Without any clarification as to Eddie's "training parameters", no one knows what he actually reacted to. Personally, I find the term "cadaver" to potentially be misleading as "human decomposition" might have been a more accurate term.
The flat had been let out up until the week prior to the dogs' inspection and their (ETA occupants) statements aren't in the files.
Keela would only react to the physical presence of blood, according to Grime, but he makes no such assertion concerning Eddie. Is it, or is it not, possible that Eddie reacted to the lingering smell of, e.g., a bloodied bandaid left for a week in the flat, but removed prior to the inspection? If there was no physical trace left, then Keela wouldn't react.
If the block had a plumbing crawl-space, where would it be located? Was that ever checked out?
Lots of questions, but no answers for the moment.
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Topic please...TY
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So are you admitting GA jumped the gun with his claims simply because he had no evidence to back it up? OK the SC can say he was entitled to his opinion, but it always sounded like he was presenting it as a fact not an opinion.
Can statements be analysed so accurately they themselves become forensic evidence, like forensic voice analysis, or forensic word analysis?
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Can statements be analysed so accurately they themselves become forensic evidence, like forensic voice analysis, or forensic word analysis?
Peter Hyatt does a similar technique. I suppose it could be sufficient to get a guilty person to confess at times. At least it isn't being nasty. I take my hat off to anyone who can do that consistently.
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Thu 22 Feb 2007
Forensic lab errors in hundreds of crime cases
Over a five-year period, the Forensic Science Service (FSS) failed to detect tiny samples of DNA in 2,500 cases involving murders, rapes and serious assaults. Senior officers believe that in many of those cases DNA samples could have been found and matched to suspects, had the FSS used different techniques that were being used by other privately run laboratories.
They are furious at the failings and have demanded an explanation from the FSS.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2007/feb/22/topstories3.ukcrime
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Peter Hyatt does a similar technique. I suppose it could be sufficient to get a guilty person to confess at times. At least it isn't being nasty. I take my hat off to anyone who can do that consistently.
I don't know enough about his academic and professional record to comment on that.
I've come across numerous "experts" or pundits who actually aren't experts, and a few with qualifications and / or some experience, but clearly hadn't followed the case. Many appear to have jumped on the latest lucrative bandwagon, so hard to tell.
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Thu 22 Feb 2007
Forensic lab errors in hundreds of crime cases
Over a five-year period, the Forensic Science Service (FSS) failed to detect tiny samples of DNA in 2,500 cases involving murders, rapes and serious assaults. Senior officers believe that in many of those cases DNA samples could have been found and matched to suspects, had the FSS used different techniques that were being used by other privately run laboratories.
They are furious at the failings and have demanded an explanation from the FSS.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2007/feb/22/topstories3.ukcrime
Kathy Lee, a spokeswoman for the FSS, said scientists estimated that of the 2,500 cases that needed retesting, around 200 were likely to provide a positive match with a suspect. But she admitted this was just a guess. She said the errors had occurred because the rapid advances in technology meant DNA could now be found on tiny residues. "This happened when LCN was in its infancy," she said.
Yes, and LCN was suspended for a time. If Kate's account is accurate, why the PJ considered LCN to be the "gold standard" is beyond me.
The boot bits were reexamined by the INML (which didn't have LCN capacity). The only oddity was that a male profile was found that the FSS hadn't. Contamination upon shipping back?
Whoever that male profile belonged to, it wasn't Gerry...
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Kathy Lee, a spokeswoman for the FSS, said scientists estimated that of the 2,500 cases that needed retesting, around 200 were likely to provide a positive match with a suspect. But she admitted this was just a guess. She said the errors had occurred because the rapid advances in technology meant DNA could now be found on tiny residues. "This happened when LCN was in its infancy," she said.
Yes, and LCN was suspended for a time. If Kate's account is accurate, why the PJ considered LCN to be the "gold standard" is beyond me.
The boot bits were reexamined by the INML (which didn't have LCN capacity). The only oddity was that a male profile was found that the FSS hadn't. Contamination upon shipping back?
Whoever that male profile belonged to, it wasn't Gerry...
I seem to remember that Edgar bemoaned the fact that LCN wasn’t used on the forensics from 5a. He seemed to believe it was the gold standard too.
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If all this is so hot why are there a lot of miscarriages of justice attributable to inaccurate forensics and erroneous testimony from "expert" witnesses?
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I seem to remember that Edgar bemoaned the fact that LCN wasn’t used on the forensics from 5a. He seemed to believe it was the gold standard too.
Did he? I don't recall that. Where did you read that?
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Did he? I don't recall that. Where did you read that?
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/dna-test-could-find-kidnapper-28507607.html
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https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/dna-test-could-find-kidnapper-28507607.html
Ok, thanks for that. No quote from him directly related to 5A. What was he actually asked?
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Ok, thanks for that. No quote from him directly related to 5A. What was he actually asked?
This seems pretty direct “Dave said: “It’s an amazingly powerful tool, so it’s a real shame we will never get to use it with Maddie”.
He certainly seemed to believe it was the gold standard too though not that it had already been used.
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This seems pretty direct “Dave said: “It’s an amazingly powerful tool, so it’s a real shame we will never get to use it with Maddie”.
He certainly seemed to believe it was the gold standard too though not that it had already been used.
As it's not clear what the question asked actually was, I find it hard to work out what he may have been referring to.
And LCN was used for some samples, so I really have no idea what the specific topic was about.
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As it's not clear what the question asked actually was, I find it hard to work out what he may have been referring to.
And LCN was used for some samples, so I really have no idea what the specific topic was about.
You asked for evidence that Edgar thought LCN was the gold strand adr of forensic techniques, I gave it, what are you finding so difficult to understand Carana ?
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This seems pretty direct “Dave said: “It’s an amazingly powerful tool, so it’s a real shame we will never get to use it with Maddie”.
He certainly seemed to believe it was the gold standard too though not that it had already been used.
LCN is not the gold standard it's a technique of last resort when nothing else is possible... And it was developed by the FSS and other labs are now copying their tecnique
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You asked for evidence that Edgar thought LCN was the gold strand adr of forensic techniques, I gave it, what are you finding so difficult to understand Carana ?
An "amazingly powerful tool" doesn't necesarily equate to the "gold standard", when there is no specific indication as to what he was referring to in particular.
LCN could, indeed, be helpful, but the process involved required a total absence of contamination, and even then may have shown irrelevant results, then subject to interpretation.
A bit of a waffly article, IMO.
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An "amazingly powerful tool" doesn't necesarily equate to the "gold standard", when there is no specific indication as to what he was referring to in particular.
LCN could, indeed, be helpful, but the process involved required a total absence of contamination, and even then may have shown irrelevant results, then subject to interpretation.
A bit of a waffly article, IMO.
Perhaps the LCN results was in the section of the files that Edgar wasn’t privy to. That would certainly explain this article.
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Perhaps the LCN results was in the section of the files that Edgar wasn’t privy to. That would certainly explain this article.
In an article in 2009?
Without the context of the "interview", assuming there was one, I have no idea what was being discussed beyond the broad topic of LCN.
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In an article in 2009?
Without the context of the "interview", assuming there was one, I have no idea what was being discussed beyond the broad topic of LCN.
Edgar was employed by the McCanns in 2009.
As to the interview there are direct quotes from Edgar. Not sure what else would convince you that the interview actually happened ?
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Edgar was employed by the McCanns in 2009.
As to the interview there are direct quotes from Edgar. Not sure what else would convince you that the interview actually happened ?
The interview probably did take place. What was actually discussed might be a different matter. Hard to tell from reading it.
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The interview probably did take place. What was actually discussed might be a different matter. Hard to tell from reading it.
Not hard at all.
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Not hard at all.
OK, so what specifically from 5a was he suggesting may have been useful?
His one supposedly direct quote:
Dave said: “It’s an amazingly powerful tool, so it’s a real shame we will never get to use it with Maddie.”
Hmmm. But LCN had been used, although not in any of the initial samples.
Even LCN wouldn't have been much use on lost hairs; it wouldn't have made any difference to the initial misidentification of semen for saliva; there were no blood spatters identified... so I'm not sure what he's referring to.
Possibly the bed clothing and CC, but as it's not clear what he was asked, I've no idea.
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OK, so what specifically from 5a was he suggesting may have been useful?
His one supposedly direct quote:
Dave said: “It’s an amazingly powerful tool, so it’s a real shame we will never get to use it with Maddie.”
Hmmm. But LCN had been used, although not in any of the initial samples.
Even LCN wouldn't have been much use on lost hairs; it wouldn't have made any difference to the initial misidentification of semen for saliva; there were no blood spatters identified... so I'm not sure what he's referring to.
Possibly the bed clothing and CC, but as it's not clear what he was asked, I've no idea.
You are absolutely correct, LCN didn’t appear to move the case one inch forward. Seems strange that if Edgar had full access to the files he didn’t know that.
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You are absolutely correct, LCN didn’t appear to move the case one inch forward. Seems strange that if Edgar had full access to the files he didn’t know that.
No, but as I said earlier:
Possibly the bed clothing and CC, but as it's not clear what he was asked, I've no idea.
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I personally don't rate Dave Edgar's views as being factual.
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I personally don't rate Dave Edgar's views as being factual.
No idea about his views, as I don't know what they are. There isn't much context in that article to try to guess what he may have been referring to in any specific sense.
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No idea about his views, as I don't know what they are. There isn't much context in that article to try to guess what he may have been referring to in any specific sense.
In various documentaries I've heard him speak and I find myself cringing.