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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Robittybob1 on March 04, 2018, 08:47:27 PM
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Is there any evidence the PJ followed up an issue first raised via the British Family liaison officers (FLO)?
Examples where I feel it didn't happen:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JIM_McGARVEY.htm
"In relation to the above I would like to mention that at approximately 20.00 on the 5th May, I arrived at the McCann apartment with other family communications officers. We were asked several times during this meeting about questions that Gerald and Kate would like to have followed up and responded to by the PJ.
I remember that during the meetings, Kate revealed that Madeleine had spoken with her in the morning of her disappearance and said that she remembered the twins had cried during the night and that she wanted to know why neither her mother or father had appeared. Kate asked herself whether this fact could have any relation with Madeleine’s disappearance.
Gerry and Kate also questioned whether there was any suggestion that pointed to the use of drugs to facilitate Madeleine's abduction."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN_MARKLEY.htm
"However, in relation to the above, I would like to add the following: At about 20.00 on Saturday 5th May 2007, I arrived at the apartment where Kate and Gerry were staying, with other officers. During the meeting Gerald and Kate had a number of questions to which they wanted follow up and responses from the PJ.
One of these questions was that they wanted the PJ to be aware of was Madeleine's revelation about Wednesday night, when she said that she was left alone during the night. She told Kate and Gerry that she remembered the twins crying and that she wanted to know why neither her mother nor her father had gone to the room to see what was happening.
They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction."
Now surely these requests were not held back by the FLO
What other issues were reported by the FLOs? Were they followed up by the PJ or were they ignored?
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Is there any evidence the PJ followed up a issue raised via the British liaison officers (BLO)?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JIM_McGARVEY.htm
"In relation to the above I would like to mention that at approximately 20.00 on the 5th May, I arrived at the McCann apartment with other family communications officers. We were asked several times during this meeting about questions that Gerald and Kate would like to have followed up and responded to by the PJ.
I remember that during the meetings, Kate revealed that Madeleine had spoken with her in the morning of her disappearance and said that she remembered the twins had cried during the night and that she wanted to know why neither her mother or father had appeared. Kate asked herself whether this fact could have any relation with Madeleine’s disappearance.
Gerry and Kate also questioned whether there was any suggestion that pointed to the use of drugs to facilitate Madeleine's abduction."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN_MARKLEY.htm
"However, in relation to the above, I would like to add the following: At about 20.00 on Saturday 5th May 2007, I arrived at the apartment where Kate and Gerry were staying, with other officers. During the meeting Gerald and Kate had a number of questions to which they wanted follow up and responses from the PJ.
One of these questions was that they wanted the PJ to be aware of was Madeleine's revelation about Wednesday night, when she said that she was left alone during the night. She told Kate and Gerry that she remembered the twins crying and that she wanted to know why neither her mother nor her father had gone to the room to see what was happening.
They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction."
Now surely these requests were not held back by the BLO
What other issues were reported by the BLO? Were they followed up or were they ignored.
They seemed to get into the files in April 2008.
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They seemed to get into the files in April 2008.
Is that in itself evidence they were being ignored? Better take some statement from them just before the case gets archived!
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Is that in itself evidence they were being ignored? Better take some statement from them just before the case gets archived!
That’s when the statements were made as far as I can see...
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Is there any evidence the PJ followed up a issue raised via the British liaison officers (BLO)?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JIM_McGARVEY.htm
"In relation to the above I would like to mention that at approximately 20.00 on the 5th May, I arrived at the McCann apartment with other family communications officers. We were asked several times during this meeting about questions that Gerald and Kate would like to have followed up and responded to by the PJ.
I remember that during the meetings, Kate revealed that Madeleine had spoken with her in the morning of her disappearance and said that she remembered the twins had cried during the night and that she wanted to know why neither her mother or father had appeared. Kate asked herself whether this fact could have any relation with Madeleine’s disappearance.
Gerry and Kate also questioned whether there was any suggestion that pointed to the use of drugs to facilitate Madeleine's abduction."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN_MARKLEY.htm
"However, in relation to the above, I would like to add the following: At about 20.00 on Saturday 5th May 2007, I arrived at the apartment where Kate and Gerry were staying, with other officers. During the meeting Gerald and Kate had a number of questions to which they wanted follow up and responses from the PJ.
One of these questions was that they wanted the PJ to be aware of was Madeleine's revelation about Wednesday night, when she said that she was left alone during the night. She told Kate and Gerry that she remembered the twins crying and that she wanted to know why neither her mother nor her father had gone to the room to see what was happening.
They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction."
Now surely these requests were not held back by the BLO
What other issues were reported by the BLO? Were they followed up or were they ignored.
The role of an FLO in the UK is twofold. They support and inform the family but they also report back to the investigation if they learn anything of interest. In the case of 'the vision' by a friend of a friend of an aunt, Markley made a statement about it and the British police seem to have been involved rather than the Portuguese police. Were the FLO's reporting to their own superiors or to the PJ?
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That’s when the statements were made as far as I can see...
But surely the British police and the PJ spoke to each other on a daily basis. [There was something about having offices side by side so they could check up on each other.]
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Madeleine McCann's parents fell out with British as well as Portuguese police, says leaked report http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/madeliene-mccann-parents-kate-gerry-british-portuguese-police-fell-out-daughter-missing-operation-a7714736.html
Quote:
"Kate and Gerry McCann ended up getting information from their own private investigators but refusing to share all of it with British detectives, according to the Home Office document obtained by Sky News.
The report, ordered by the then Labour Home Secretary Alan Johnson in late 2009, is believed to have said: “It is clear that the McCanns and the private investigators working on their behalf have gathered a large amount of information during the course of their enquiries.
Madeleine McCann’s parents vow to do ‘whatever it takes’ to find her
“This information does not appear to have been shared fully with the Leicestershire Constabulary or the Portuguese authorities.
"It is imperative that they are encouraged and persuaded to share this information."
The report, written by the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre, adds: "Clearly, the McCanns have had a turbulent relationship with both Portuguese and UK law enforcement. They now openly acknowledge that there is a distinct lack of trust between all parties." End quote.
That was repeated in one of the Sky Documentaries on the case.
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http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2163.msg71885#msg71885 Angelo raised a thread discussing "Police officers sent packing after asking Kate McCann where her daughter was?"
"Several British police officers spent time in Praia da Luz after Madeleine's disappearance. The first to arrive was British Embassy liaison officer Glen Power on 5th May. His brief was to facilitate communication between the two police forces. Two days later a further two British police officers arrived, one being Bob Small from Leicestershire Police, whose function was to act as support officers between the McCanns and the Portuguese investigators. Other officers arrive from Scotland Yard including specialists and technicians.
According to Mr Amaral, an 'incident' occurred on 14th May when Kate McCann was asked by one of the highly experienced British liaison police officers as to where Madeleine was. The question did not go down well, the officer and his colleague were sent packing back to England having only been there a week. The two officers are later replaced by a Portuguese speaker.
Curiously, the incident has been conveniently forgotten." Ok a whole thread to digest.
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Anne Guedes "On the 5th of May there were 6 PO from the LC present in PDL : the inspectors Caroline Burrows, Eleanor Johnson, Michael Graham, Neil Holden, Jim Mc Garvey and Stephen Markley.
Cartas Rogatorias Vol V Pages 7-14"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2163.msg71923#msg71923 Carana corrects her.
Stephen was a little helpful http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2163.msg71949#msg71949
" :From a link.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/19-Sep8/NOTW-14-09-08.htm
km's diaries.
'MONDAY, MAY 14: I slept well last night after a not very good end of the day, frustration with the FLO (Portuguese police family liaison officer) asking me where would my little M be.'
Now was this just the Portuguese officer, or were UK representatives there as well ?"
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DCI comes to the rescue and it reads like it was two of the PJ who were reassigned
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2163.msg71986#msg71986
"I think you slightly altered what Amaral say's. He doesn't mention anyone "sent packing"
According to Amaral,
I had worked with Glen on several cases of violent crime or linked to organised crime; I was aware of his skills, his great capacity for work, his kindness and his modesty. Our relationship went beyond that of a simple professional connection. I was a bit worried when he told me that he wouldn't be around a few days later. He had a lot to do.
On May 14th, Kate Healy is indignant about the attitude of the liaison officer, who asks her where her daughter is. Neither she nor her husband accepts anyone doubting their word. The officer will be sent packing - and his colleague too - a week after his arrival. That attitude is, to say the least, shocking on the part of parents confronted by such a situation, that, what is more, is in a foreign country. Those two police officers, who distinguished themselves through long experience in the management of situations of kidnap and abduction, were, all the same, entirely at their disposal; they provided daily logistical and legal support, and afforded them all the help they could have needed.
Curiously, the English do not consider it expedient to disclose the incident and the PJ are not informed. Myself, I only learn of it indirectly. Finally, a solution is found quickly: the two men are replaced by a Portuguese man who speaks fluent English."
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Classic line from Eleanor http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2163.msg72181#msg72181
"What is A Lie?"
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Thread finished up debating whether Amaral could speak and read English.
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Anne Guedes "On the 5th of May there were 6 PO from the LC present in PDL : the inspectors Caroline Burrows, Eleanor Johnson, Michael Graham, Neil Holden, Jim Mc Garvey and Stephen Markley.
Cartas Rogatorias Vol V Pages 7-14"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2163.msg71923#msg71923 Carana corrects her.
Stephen was a little helpful http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2163.msg71949#msg71949
" :From a link.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/19-Sep8/NOTW-14-09-08.htm
km's diaries.
'MONDAY, MAY 14: I slept well last night after a not very good end of the day, frustration with the FLO (Portuguese police family liaison officer) asking me where would my little M be.'
Now was this just the Portuguese officer, or were UK representatives there as well ?"
A disagreement between Amaral and Kate McCann then. She says a Portuguese FLO frustrated her, he says British.
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What I was hoping to find was that witnesses that had reported to the BLO got less than satisfactory follow-up by the PJ, but I'm not sure how to find an example.
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witnesses that I know of that dealt with the British Police are George Burke Brooks, Jayne Jensen & Annie Wiltshire, Moyes.
1. George Burke Brooks:
"Regarding the content of the attached email from British Authorities, with particular focus with respect to the statement by Michael Terrence Wright, in the international letter of request which is being implemented by the Leicestershire Police, on the 6th of May, 2007, in Praia da Luz, a pizza kitchen worker, of British nationality and originally from Liverpool, commented to that witness that her father, George, had seen a man carrying a child, in the early hours of May 4th of 2007. He does not know if George contacted the authorities about this."
2. Annie Wiltshire and Jayne Jensen:
"British witnesses: 'We saw two blond men on balcony next to Madeleine apartment'
By FIONA BARTON, DAN NEWLING and VANESSA ALLEN
Last updated at 15:55 31 December 2007
"In an exclusive interview, Jayne Jensen and Annie Wiltshire told how they saw two blond men in their 30s, standing on the balcony of an empty apartment only a couple of doors away from the McCanns' flat in Praia da Luz."
"Although the two sisters contacted Portuguese police within hours of Madeleine's disappearance, their evidence was ignored for six months.
The women met police three times within 24 hours, tried to find out who the strangers were themselves and made several follow-up phone calls to the authorities.
But it was not until six weeks ago that a formal statement was finally taken.
The two women, both divorcees from Maidstone, Kent, spent 11 hours with British police officers providing details of their evidence and later met private detectives from Metodo 3, the agency employed by the McCanns to find their daughter.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-504950/British-witnesses-We-saw-blond-men-balcony-Madeleine-apartment.html#ixzz58rp4wZQa
3. Paul and Susan Moyes:
"British holidaymakers Paul and Susan Moyes told the Sun Online how officers asked them about a mystery man and woman while questioning them about what they remembered from the night Maddie went missing on May 3, 2007.
The retired accountant said: "The Met police came here about two years ago and both times they came into our house.
"The first time they interviewed us in separate rooms and took our DNA and that visit lasted more than an hour.
"The second visit was about three months later and lasted more than an hour and that was to pursue a lead and to make sure we were convinced on our timeline.
"The lead was that a couple had climbed over the fence and the back garden wall and they asked if that was us. It wasn't.""
Conclusion:
Did any of these people get timely visits from the PJ?
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witnesses that I know of that dealt with the British Police are George Burke Brooks, Jayne Jensen & Annie Wiltshire, Moyes.
"Regarding the content of the attached email from British Authorities, with particular focus with respect to the statement by Michael Terrence Wright, in the international letter of request which is being implemented by the Leicestershire Police, on the 6th of May, 2007, in Praia da Luz, a pizza kitchen worker, of British nationality and originally from Liverpool, commented to that witness that her father, George, had seen a man carrying a child, in the early hours of May 4th of 2007. He does not know if George contacted the authorities about this."
British witnesses: 'We saw two blond men on balcony next to Madeleine apartment'
By FIONA BARTON, DAN NEWLING and VANESSA ALLEN
Last updated at 15:55 31 December 2007
"In an exclusive interview, Jayne Jensen and Annie Wiltshire told how they saw two blond men in their 30s, standing on the balcony of an empty apartment only a couple of doors away from the McCanns' flat in Praia da Luz."
"Although the two sisters contacted Portuguese police within hours of Madeleine's disappearance, their evidence was ignored for six months.
The women met police three times within 24 hours, tried to find out who the strangers were themselves and made several follow-up phone calls to the authorities.
But it was not until six weeks ago that a formal statement was finally taken.
The two women, both divorcees from Maidstone, Kent, spent 11 hours with British police officers providing details of their evidence and later met private detectives from Metodo 3, the agency employed by the McCanns to find their daughter.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-504950/British-witnesses-We-saw-blond-men-balcony-Madeleine-apartment.html#ixzz58rp4wZQa
British holidaymakers Paul and Susan Moyes told the Sun Online how officers asked them about a mystery man and woman while questioning them about what they remembered from the night Maddie went missing on May 3, 2007.
The retired accountant said: "The Met police came here about two years ago and both times they came into our house.
"The first time they interviewed us in separate rooms and took our DNA and that visit lasted more than an hour.
"The second visit was about three months later and lasted more than an hour and that was to pursue a lead and to make sure we were convinced on our timeline.
"The lead was that a couple had climbed over the fence and the back garden wall and they asked if that was us. It wasn't.""
Did any of these people get timely visits from the PJ?
There is no evidence as far as I know that George Burke, Jane Jensen and Annie Wiltshire ever spoke to the British Police.
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Anne Guedes "On the 5th of May there were 6 PO from the LC present in PDL : the inspectors Caroline Burrows, Eleanor Johnson, Michael Graham, Neil Holden, Jim Mc Garvey and Stephen Markley.
Cartas Rogatorias Vol V Pages 7-14"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2163.msg71923#msg71923 Carana corrects her.
Stephen was a little helpful http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2163.msg71949#msg71949
" :From a link.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/19-Sep8/NOTW-14-09-08.htm
km's diaries.
'MONDAY, MAY 14: I slept well last night after a not very good end of the day, frustration with the FLO (Portuguese police family liaison officer) asking me where would my little M be.'
Now was this just the Portuguese officer, or were UK representatives there as well ?"
I didn't "correct" her... I was asking for her to substantiate her claim.
This was prior to the release of the UK police post-mortem, which still doesn't quite clarify the matter.
http://library.college.police.uk/docs/npia/Strategic-debrief-operation-task-2009.pdf
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There is no evidence as far as I know that George Burke, Jane Jensen and Annie Wiltshire ever spoke to the British Police.
I haven't either... but then there could have been a last-minute flutter over what should be included in the open files from the UK side or not, particularly in view of the fact that they, via a lawyer, appear to have gone ballistic at the idea that their informal sharing of confidential info could have ended up in a PT tabloid.
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I haven't either... but then there could have been a last-minute flutter over what should be included in the open files from the UK side or not, particularly in view of the fact that they, via a lawyer, appear to have gone ballistic at the idea that their informal sharing of confidential info could have ended up in a PT tabloid.
I'm looking for evidence, and there's none. There are a few reasons why that may be;
no statements were taken
the British police lost them
the British police filed them in HOLMES2 and didn't tell the PJ
the British police withheld them
the British police gave them to the PJ and they lost them
Take your pick, they're all possible imo.
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I'm looking for evidence, and there's none. There are a few reasons why that may be;
no statements were taken
the British police lost them
the British police filed them in HOLMES2 and didn't tell the PJ
the British police withheld them
the British police gave them to the PJ and they lost them
Take your pick, they're all possible imo.
How about that documents filed under information provided by the UK wasn't included on the CD?
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Would I be correct in assuming that anything on Holmes would have been unavailable to PJ once LP withdrew its presence in Portugal ?
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How about that documents filed under information provided by the UK wasn't included on the CD?
As I said, many possibilities but no evidence. Therefore we can't assume, speculate or guess what the truth is.
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As I said, many possibilities but no evidence. Therefore we can't assume, speculate or guess what the truth is.
I agree, but the possibilities that you listed only concerned the UK side, not any potential situations concerning what ended up on the CD.
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Would I be correct in assuming that anything on Holmes would have been unavailable to PJ once LP withdrew its presence in Portugal ?
Probably!
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That’s when the statements were made as far as I can see...
Are you saying that in the sense that that is when you think they made first contact with the PJ? As if they were poor witnesses and they held onto the vital clues for a year before saying anything?
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The role of an FLO in the UK is twofold. They support and inform the family but they also report back to the investigation if they learn anything of interest. In the case of 'the vision' by a friend of a friend of an aunt, Markley made a statement about it and the British police seem to have been involved rather than the Portuguese police. Were the FLO's reporting to their own superiors or to the PJ?
Is that in the file about the vision?
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I'm looking for evidence, and there's none. There are a few reasons why that may be;
no statements were taken
the British police lost them
the British police filed them in HOLMES2 and didn't tell the PJ
the British police withheld them
the British police gave them to the PJ and they lost them
Take your pick, they're all possible imo.
All those ideas give us great confidence this case will be solved.
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As I said, many possibilities but no evidence. Therefore we can't assume, speculate or guess what the truth is.
Well we have the McCanns themselves giving the FLO information that doesn't appear to get passed on or was it just ignored?
The Jensen Wiltshire sisters actually complain about it.
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Well we have the McCanns themselves giving the FLO information that doesn't appear to get passed on or was it just ignored?
The Jensen Wiltshire sisters actually complain about it.
Undoubtedly a lot of information passed to the various police officers was never documented for one reason or another, that is why I keep pointing out that Amaral and his detectives were privy to a lot more stuff than ever appeared in the files.
There tends to be a lot of secrecy between police forces too so I would also suggest that the PJ never shared every detail they came across with Leicestershire Police and vice versa.
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Is that in the file about the vision?
Yes. The statement by Markley is in English and hasn't been translated to Portuguese. His statement says that the British police checked out 'Kate's boat', not the PJ. Markley approached Glen Pounder to check this boat out, and he mentions that Glen told him the name of the British police officer who is 'now dealing with it'.
It seems to me that only when the matter had been dealt with by the British police was the evidence handed to the PJ for filing. That suggests that the FLO's role was not necessarily to report to the PJ.
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Yes. The statement by Markley is in English and hasn't been translated to Portuguese. His statement says that the British police checked out 'Kate's boat', not the PJ. Markley approached Glen Pounder to check this boat out, and he mentions that Glen told him the name of the British police officer who is 'now dealing with it'.
It seems to me that only when the matter had been dealt with by the British police was the evidence handed to the PJ for filing. That suggests that the FLO's role was not necessarily to report to the PJ.
There was no sign of a follow up by the PJ. I had covered this incident in a recent thread.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9175.msg447546#msg447546
has a comment from G-unit quoting Kate McCann Her Aunt was very religious so it's possible that the Lagos incident was related to prayer;
"There were a couple of ‘visionary’ experiences in particular I took very seriously. One of them had come through prayer which, at the time, gave it even greater credibility in my eyes. I begged the police to look into these. They were very sceptical, to put it mildly." [madeleine]
From that Kate didn't expect much of a response. But that was subsequent to the George Brooks report of the couple carrying a child early on the 4th. Whether the PJ linked the two and dismissed the lot I don't know.
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There is no evidence as far as I know that George Burke, Jane Jensen and Annie Wiltshire ever spoke to the British Police.
Where would this evidence come from? I think I'm picking up hints that they spoke to the UK police as well as the PJ. It is basically memories now but I'll have to go back and see if I can isolate it.
It seems certain that the UK police looked into the boat identified after the vision. It seems certain that Kate and Gerry raised the issue of sedatives being used on the children with the UK police on the 5th May.
Annie and Jayne make a lot of noise in the press. They complain about being ignored.
The Moyes don't really make it clear who they spoke to.
George Brooks - uncertainty all round.
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The fact that George Brooks page start off with notes from the UK police tells me he talked to the UK police.
"Apenso5_vol_1_Page3
Leicestershire Constabulary Continuation Witness Statement
Continuation Statement - 4th May
Continuation Statement: Information from the Family
There is a male who owns a pizza hut in the resort called George originally from Liverpool. He states that on Friday morning at 5.55 AM on Friday 4th May 2007 he saw a couple acting suspiciously carrying a child near to the marina.
He can be contacted on the following number: ***
The pizza hut is near to a place called Amy Dukes.
The police have not yet spoken to this male."
If not him directly but it is recorded as a statement "He states that on Friday morning at 5.55 AM on Friday 4th May 2007 he saw a couple acting suspiciously carrying a child near to the marina.
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Where would this evidence come from? I think I'm picking up hints that they spoke to the UK police as well as the PJ. It is basically memories now but I'll have to go back and see if I can isolate it.
It seems certain that the UK police looked into the boat identified after the vision. It seems certain that Kate and Gerry raised the issue of sedatives being used on the children with the UK police on the 5th May.
Annie and Jayne make a lot of noise in the press. They complain about being ignored.
The Moyes don't really make it clear who they spoke to.
George Brooks - uncertainty all round.
People say all sorts of things, it doesn't mean they're telling the truth. Evidence supporting their stories is needed.
There is evidence that Burke and the sisters spoke to the media. The official files contain nothing to confirm their claims that they spoke to the police.
You are now misquoting what the McCanns said to the FLO's.
They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN_MARKLEY.htm
Gerry and Kate also questioned whether there was any suggestion that pointed to the use of drugs to facilitate Madeleine's abduction.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JIM_McGARVEY.htm
As you can see they didn't mention 'sedatives' or 'children' so your statement above is misleading because it's incorrect.
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People say all sorts of things, it doesn't mean they're telling the truth. Evidence supporting their stories is needed.
There is evidence that Burke and the sisters spoke to the media. The official files contain nothing to confirm their claims that they spoke to the police.
You are now misquoting what the McCanns said to the FLO's.
They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN_MARKLEY.htm
Gerry and Kate also questioned whether there was any suggestion that pointed to the use of drugs to facilitate Madeleine's abduction.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JIM_McGARVEY.htm
As you can see they didn't mention 'sedatives' or 'children' so your statement above is misleading because it's incorrect.
So how were the PJ going to answer that question? "They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction." Was it just to reply "no we have no evidence"? Or was it an request to go and look for some? In which case testing the siblings for sedatives would seem very logical in the account of them sleeping so soundly. So yes I was putting my spin on the meaning of the question.
"No we have no evidence but neither do you, so you will be helpless when we accuse you of sedating the children before you went out for the night. And when you did your own testing it was at a time the drugs would have been eliminated."
If there is anything that rattles me it is the accusations of Amaral against the McCanns on this issue.
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Is it normal to ask police if they have evidence of something? I would have thought not.
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So how were the PJ going to answer that question? "They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction." Was it just to reply "no we have no evidence"? Or was it an request to go and look for some? In which case testing the siblings for sedatives would seem very logical in the account of them sleeping so soundly. So yes I was putting my spin on the meaning of the question.
"No we have no evidence but neither do you, so you will be helpless when we accuse you of sedating the children before you went out for the night. And when you did your own testing it was at a time the drugs would have been eliminated."
If there is anything that rattles me it is the accusations of Amaral against the McCanns on this issue.
In my opinion you are allowing your opinions to influence your evaluation of the evidence. The files have only this;
Strangely, Kate also made several requests, three months after the disappearance of Madeleine, that the police should take blood, hair and nail tests of Madeleine's twin siblings, because, as she said, she remembered that on the day of Madeleine's disappearance, in spite of all the commotion and noise made by the authorities and other persons who were looking for Madeleine in apartment 5A of the OC, the twins never woke up, having been transported to another apartment, they remained asleep, due to which she now presumes that they were under the effect of some sedative drug that a presumed abductor had administered to the three children in order to be able to abduct Madeleine, a situation which Kate refers to being possible according to what she read in a criminal investigation manual given to her by the British authorities, that would have been the procedure of the abductor in the real case involving abduction, rape and murder of the girl.
Paiva, 3rd Sept 2007
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SERVICE_INFORMATION.htm
That's the only evidence of the sedation story being mentioned. Although Kate, Fiona and Dianne all testified to the unusual sleepiness of the twins later, not one of them mentioned it at the time.
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Is it normal to ask police if they have evidence of something? I would have thought not.
Perhaps that's why the liaison officers mentioned it in their statements.
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Is it normal to ask police if they have evidence of something? I would have thought not.
IMO the PJ don't like being told what to do so it was a question hopefully to prompt action. But it didn't seem to make any difference.
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In my opinion you are allowing your opinions to influence your evaluation of the evidence. The files have only this;
Strangely, Kate also made several requests, three months after the disappearance of Madeleine, that the police should take blood, hair and nail tests of Madeleine's twin siblings, because, as she said, she remembered that on the day of Madeleine's disappearance, in spite of all the commotion and noise made by the authorities and other persons who were looking for Madeleine in apartment 5A of the OC, the twins never woke up, having been transported to another apartment, they remained asleep, due to which she now presumes that they were under the effect of some sedative drug that a presumed abductor had administered to the three children in order to be able to abduct Madeleine, a situation which Kate refers to being possible according to what she read in a criminal investigation manual given to her by the British authorities, that would have been the procedure of the abductor in the real case involving abduction, rape and murder of the girl.
Paiva, 3rd Sept 2007
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SERVICE_INFORMATION.htm
That's the only evidence of the sedation story being mentioned. Although Kate, Fiona and Dianne all testified to the unusual sleepiness of the twins later, not one of them mentioned it at the time.
That is not evidence that is an argument.
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IMO the PJ don't like being told what to do so it was a question hopefully to prompt action. But it didn't seem to make any difference.
I don't imagine any police force appreciates being told what to do
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I don't imagine any police force appreciates being told what to do
It is often the best way to get it right.
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In my opinion you are allowing your opinions to influence your evaluation of the evidence. The files have only this;
Strangely, Kate also made several requests, three months after the disappearance of Madeleine, that the police should take blood, hair and nail tests of Madeleine's twin siblings, because, as she said, she remembered that on the day of Madeleine's disappearance, in spite of all the commotion and noise made by the authorities and other persons who were looking for Madeleine in apartment 5A of the OC, the twins never woke up, having been transported to another apartment, they remained asleep, due to which she now presumes that they were under the effect of some sedative drug that a presumed abductor had administered to the three children in order to be able to abduct Madeleine, a situation which Kate refers to being possible according to what she read in a criminal investigation manual given to her by the British authorities, that would have been the procedure of the abductor in the real case involving abduction, rape and murder of the girl.
Paiva, 3rd Sept 2007
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SERVICE_INFORMATION.htm
That's the only evidence of the sedation story being mentioned. Although Kate, Fiona and Dianne all testified to the unusual sleepiness of the twins later, not one of them mentioned it at the time.
Are you saying that the statements of the 2 FLO officers don't count?
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Are you saying that the statements of the 2 FLO officers don't count?
I think the question is, “What happened after K&G made their statements to the FLOs?”
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I think the question is, “What happened after K&G made their statements to the FLOs?”
And that is a question not answered by the file. There needs to be an inquiry into the roles of the FLO. Did they just not pass on the requests made by the McCanns? Did the PJ just ignore anything the FLO passed onto them?
You would think unless there was documented evidence of this transfer it will just be denied. Words won't be enough.
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And that is a question not answered by the file. There needs to be an inquiry into the roles of the FLO. Did they just not pass on the requests made by the McCanns? Did the PJ just ignore anything the FLO passed onto them?
You would think unless there was documented evidence of this transfer it will just be denied. Words won't be enough.
Exactly right. The evidence may be with Leicestershire police, but they have no intention of sharing. The SIO had no intention of allowing his FLO's to answer certain PJ questions. He asked for the questions to be changed and they were;
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/CR2/cr2_120.jpg)
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Very indicative of a good working relationship. Hide most of the other evidence of communication but publish the one which shows your own questions blocked out by a single question that can be answered "no".
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Very indicative of a good working relationship.
According to your post #31 'It seems certain that Kate and Gerry raised the issue of sedatives being used on the children with the UK police on the 5th May'. Why were you certain that was true?
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According to your post #31 'It seems certain that Kate and Gerry raised the issue of sedatives being used on the children with the UK police on the 5th May'. Why were you certain that was true?
I'd be only guessing, but let's say Kate and Gerry agreed that the way the twins slept that night was a little unusual.
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I'd be only guessing, but let's say Kate and Gerry agreed that the way the twins slept that night was a little unusual.
You don't appear to have understood the question. You said it seemed certain that the McCanns 'raised the issue of sedatives being used on the children with the UK police on the 5th May'.
What made you certain that they did that?
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You don't appear to have understood the question. You said it seemed certain that the McCanns 'raised the issue of sedatives being used on the children with the UK police on the 5th May'.
What made you certain that they did that?
The first two FLO that arrive both report this
e.g. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN_MARKLEY.htm "However, in relation to the above, I would like to add the following: At about 20.00 on Saturday 5th May 2007, I arrived at the apartment where Kate and Gerry were staying, with other officers. During the meeting Gerald and Kate had a number of questions to which they wanted follow up and responses from the PJ.
One of these questions was that they wanted the PJ to be aware of was Madeleine's revelation about Wednesday night, when she said that she was left alone during the night. She told Kate and Gerry that she remembered the twins crying and that she wanted to know why neither her mother nor her father had gone to the room to see what was happening.
They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JIM_McGARVEY.htm was the other.
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The first two FLO that arrive both report this
e.g. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN_MARKLEY.htm "However, in relation to the above, I would like to add the following: At about 20.00 on Saturday 5th May 2007, I arrived at the apartment where Kate and Gerry were staying, with other officers. During the meeting Gerald and Kate had a number of questions to which they wanted follow up and responses from the PJ.
One of these questions was that they wanted the PJ to be aware of was Madeleine's revelation about Wednesday night, when she said that she was left alone during the night. She told Kate and Gerry that she remembered the twins crying and that she wanted to know why neither her mother nor her father had gone to the room to see what was happening.
They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JIM_McGARVEY.htm was the other.
In my opinion your interpretation of what was said is misleading.
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In my opinion your interpretation of what was said is misleading.
I don't know why you say that as that was basically a cut and paste direct from the file.
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I don't know why you say that as that was basically a cut and paste direct from the file.
All you are pasting is what K&M told the FLOs. Nothing in the files until a year later as far as I can see.
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All you are pasting is what K&M told the FLOs. Nothing in the files until a year later as far as I can see.
But that goes to show the PJ are slow to follow-up on issues raised by the FLOs.
Can anyone see an example of an issue that was raised by the FLOs that was followed up immediately?
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But that goes to show the PJ are slow to follow-up on issues raised by the FLOs.
Can anyone see an example of an issue that was raised by the FLOs that was followed up immediately?
There was nothing in those statements which required action by the PJ and there's no evidence that the FLO's raised any issues which the PJ failed to act on.
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There was nothing in those statements which required action by the PJ and there's no evidence that the FLO's raised any issues which the PJ failed to act on.
How can an argument like that be cited, you can't just dismiss the question with an opinion like that. I will be looking for further examples of where issues were raised through the FLOs and assess whether they appear to be actioned timely.
Can anyone see an example of an issue that was raised by the FLOs that was followed up immediately?
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How can an argument like that be cited, you can't just dismiss the question with an opinion like that. I will be looking for further examples of where issues were raised through the FLOs and assess whether they appear to be actioned timely.
Can anyone see an example of an issue that was raised by the FLOs that was followed up immediately?
Here are the names of those who claimed to be Liaison Officers;
Inspector Jim McGarvey
Detective Constable Stephen Markley
Inspector Caroline Burrows
Detective Constable Eleanor Johnson
Inspector Michael Graham
Inspector Neil Holden
Good Luck!
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Here are the names of those who claimed to be Liaison Officers;
Inspector Jim McGarvey
Detective Constable Stephen Markley
Inspector Caroline Burrows
Detective Constable Eleanor Johnson
Inspector Michael Graham
Inspector Neil Holden
Good Luck!
Gosh, that is a lot!
Usually a single FLO of relatively low rank is appointed to a family
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How can an argument like that be cited, you can't just dismiss the question with an opinion like that. I will be looking for further examples of where issues were raised through the FLOs and assess whether they appear to be actioned timely.
Can anyone see an example of an issue that was raised by the FLOs that was followed up immediately?
Rob, you are on a sticky wicket here. The FLOs made statements in April 2008 that they had been told by K&G of their concerns. There are no record that the PJ were told of these concerns before that date unless anyone has any references.
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Gosh, that is a lot!
Usually a single FLO of relatively low rank is appointed to a family
Not only that, but trained FLO's are a scarce resource in most forces. That's why I put the word 'claimed' in there. Were they were trained as FLO's or simply sent out with that label attached?
According to Amaral DCS Bob Small arrived at the police station on 7th May and Amaral was under the impression that he was there to liaise too. Kate says he was there to liaise between the McCanns and the British police.
As our main liaison with the British police, Bob was not privy to the investigation details [madeleine]
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Rob, you are on a sticky wicket here. The FLOs made statements in April 2008 that they had been told by K&G of their concerns. There are no record that the PJ were told of these concerns before that date unless anyone has any references.
OK are we then running with this chain of events.
1. The FLO arrive on the 5th and in a meeting with the McCanns - the McCanns raise the issues of drugs being possibly used.
2. The FLO sit on this question for the next year until they are asked by the PJ to give a statement.
3. The PJ were not aware of the family's concern till this was translated back into Portuguese at some unknown date
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Here are the names of those who claimed to be Liaison Officers;
Inspector Jim McGarvey
Detective Constable Stephen Markley
Inspector Caroline Burrows
Detective Constable Eleanor Johnson
Inspector Michael Graham
Inspector Neil Holden
Good Luck!
DCS Bob Small is not on that list.
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DCS Bob Small is not on that list.
I listed those who claimed to be Liaison Officers. Small made no statement and therefore claimed nothing.
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I listed those who claimed to be Liaison Officers. Small made no statement and therefore claimed nothing.
Under the rules of this game was he even there in PdL if there is no statement to that effect!
As Slartibartfast reminded me:
"Rob, you are on a sticky wicket here. The FLOs made statements in April 2008 that they had been told by K&G of their concerns. There are no record that the PJ were told of these concerns before that date unless anyone has any references."
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Under the rules of this game was he even there in PdL if there is no statement to that effect!
As Slartibartfast reminded me:
"Rob, you are on a sticky wicket here. The FLOs made statements in April 2008 that they had been told by K&G of their concerns. There are no record that the PJ were told of these concerns before that date unless anyone has any references."
Well Amaral, Kate McCann say he was in their books. Jane Tanner tells in her rog interview of skulking around with him trying to identify Murat.
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Well Amaral, Kate McCann say he was in their books. Jane Tanner tells in her rog interview of skulking around with him trying to identify Murat.
I remember now - that organiser - this story is getting worse by the minute.
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Gosh, that is a lot!
Usually a single FLO of relatively low rank is appointed to a family
What were the guidelines for overseas deployments?
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What were the guidelines for overseas deployments?
No idea, but don't see why it should be any different for FAMILY liaison than in this country.
I recognise that direct liaison between forces, excluding the family, would be necessary.
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No idea, but don't see why it should be any different for FAMILY liaison than in this country.
I recognise that direct liaison between forces, excluding the family, would be necessary.
Looking at the UK police response;
Three UK police officers arrived on 5th May, but who was the third?
At about 20.00 on Saturday 5th May 2007, I arrived at the apartment where Kate and Gerry were staying, with other officers.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN_MARKLEY.htm
at approximately 20.00 on the 5th May, I arrived at the McCann apartment with other family communications ofhttp://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JIM_McGARVEY.htmficers.
we were reassured to see some UK police that day in the shape of three family liaison officers (FLOs) from the Leicestershire force [madeleine]
According to Amaral's book, Bob Small went to see them on 7th May with a colleague. Was Small the third man? Amaral got the impression that he hadn't contacted the family at that point. [TTOTL]
The next to arrive from the UK seem to have been the CEOP people plus another one;
they did permit forensic psychologists from CEOP, the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre, and an analyst from the National Policing Improvements Agency to come to Praia da Luz the following week. [madeleine]
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Looking at the UK police response;
Three UK police officers arrived on 5th May, but who was the third?
...snip ...
Could that be the one sent packing!
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TTOTL:
Chapter 6: The arrival of the English Police
THE ARRIVAL OF THE ENGLISH POLICE
After Madeleine's disappearance, the first English police officer whom we welcome to the Portimão Department of Criminal Investigation, on May 5th, is Glen Power, liaison officer to Portugal. The brief of this police official attached to his country's embassy is to facilitate communication between police forces. This is one of a number of pivots on which international police collaboration relies.
I have known Glen Power for a long time. Martin Cox, who had held the job in Portugal for some years, came to the Algarve with Glen when the latter replaced him. I had worked with Glen on several cases of violent crime or linked to organised crime; I was aware of his skills, his great capacity for work, his kindness and his modesty. Our relationship went beyond that of a simple professional connection. I was a bit worried when he told me that he wouldn't be around a few days later. He had a lot to do. He wanted to reassure me by telling me that the language of investigation was universal and that his colleagues would have no difficulty in integrating into the ongoing investigation. No doubt, but personalities are important, as is the information committed to memory, knowledge of the details, the cross-checks that allow us to be responsive to the slightest indications. It's for that reason that, in general, the make-up of the team remains the same from start to finish of an investigation.
Two days later, English colleagues begin to arrive. The main idea was for the English police to place at our disposal two specialists in family supervision and support to be the link between the Portuguese investigators and the McCanns. The National Directorate of the PJ had authorised the arrival of these police officers in the context of international collaboration. Bob Small, an officer from the Leicestershire police, and one of his colleagues meet us to take stock of the situation and evaluate the needs of the investigation before making contact with the couple.
We insist on knowing what our English counterparts have come to Portugal to do. I assign one of my investigators to follow the English superintendent like a shadow and to keep me informed about his actions. I want to be informed of everything he learns, the names of the people he meets and the places he goes to.
Then the two police officers arrive who are assigned to psychological support and communication with the family. Little by little, the number of English police officers grows exponentially. We place at their disposal a room next to our crisis unit, Task Portugal. These are specialists from various police services, including Scotland Yard. Special surveillance teams as well as information and telecommunications technicians turn up with their laptops and various high-tech equipment. Others will come to join us, notably profilers: they will develop a profile of the alleged abductor from which a number of possible scenarios will be constructed. The analysts trace timelines and patterns of connections based on the witness statements gathered. They produce giant summary boards that cover the walls of the offices. They attend all our meetings and collaborate in decision-making. They are the intermediary through which requests for information are sent to Great Britain, and it is they who receive the responses and enquiries.
On May 14th, Kate Healy is indignant about the attitude of the liaison officer, who asks her where her daughter is. Neither she nor her husband accepts anyone doubting their word. The officer will be sent packing - and his colleague too - a week after his arrival. That attitude is, to say the least, shocking on the part of parents confronted by such a situation, that, what is more, is in a foreign country. Those two police officers, who distinguished themselves through long experience in the management of situations of kidnap and abduction, were, all the same, entirely at their disposal; they provided daily logistical and legal support, and afforded them all the help they could have needed.
Curiously, the English do not consider it expedient to disclose the incident and the PJ are not informed. Myself, I only learn of it indirectly. Finally, a solution is found quickly: the two men are replaced by a Portuguese man who speaks fluent English.
During this time, the Leicestershire police continue to receive a considerable number of enquiries that they have trouble sorting and analysing. On May 15th, inspector Ricardo Paiva is sent as reinforcement to the English, who, he says, welcome him warmly and feed him on tea and cakes. Most of the bits of information received from all over the world are of no interest; so, there is no reason for follow-up. People allegedly recognise Madeleine or claim to know exactly where she is, seers, clairvoyants send very confused messages to the police, some well-intentioned, others less so... Rapidly, the sophisticated computer system for managing calls is overloaded. So much effort and so much money spent financing the appeals in the press for witnesses leaves us wondering; we are not convinced of the pertinence of this method that consists of requesting help from the population to resolve a case.
On Tuesday June 12th, Bob Small and Chris Eyre, head of the Leicestershire area police, go to Faro for a meeting, which Guilhermino Encarnacão, Luis Neves and myself also attend. We have to make a point about cooperation between police forces and set out the latest requirements. Everything seems to go well. We are aware of the incident between Kate and the liaison officers, but it is not brought up. We have the impression that the politically correct hypothesis of abduction is still favoured, but that other possibilities are not being ruled out.
As time went by, we noticed that a certain number of the police officers sent to Portugal were poorly informed about the progress of the investigation. One of them who - like the majority - was coming to Portugal for the first time, was wearing a green and yellow rubber wrist band, bought for £2, which he played with nervously. The inscription read, "Look for Madeleine." Some of his colleagues told him that he would soon get rid of it. As a matter of fact, he took it off as soon as he got properly into the investigation and he had learned about the evidence placing doubt on the theory of abduction."
http://goncaloamaraltruthofthelie.blogspot.co.nz/2009/07/chapter-6.html
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Could that be the one sent packing!
Not if it was Small, as I suspect it was.