UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Robittybob1 on April 03, 2018, 08:06:59 PM
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You can have your theories, but you should look at all the possibilities. You claimed that you would and you seemed to be to begin with, but never the possibility that Madeleine might have been abducted by an outside person/ group.
Why can you NOT ACCEPT the possibility that some stranger might have come in and abducted Madeleine?
What convinces you?
Some good reasons please.
Lets explore the reasons.
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You can have your theories, but you should look at all the possibilities. You claimed that you would and you seemed to be to begin with, but never the possibility that Madeleine might have been abducted by an outside person/ group.
Why can you NOT ACCEPT the possibility that some stranger might have come in and abducted Madeleine?
What convinces you?
Some good reasons please.
Timeline.
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Timeline.
Who's timeline do you accept?
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Who's timeline do you accept?
None!
I have voiced my concern about the time line and the descriptive of 'checking'
There was never any physical checking- just listening at the door. there was no planned schedule either- however, as luck would have it Kate and Gerry, thanks to a moving door angle and their sharp eyes claimed they checked that very same night. coincidence?
MBM was last seen by an independent witness at ? and was found to be missing at ?
Couple of hours there to play with I would suspect.
It is these wee things that cause the niggle.
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You can have your theories, but you should look at all the possibilities. You claimed that you would and you seemed to be to begin with, but never the possibility that Madeleine might have been abducted by an outside person/ group.
Why can you NOT ACCEPT the possibility that some stranger might have come in and abducted Madeleine?
What convinces you?
Some good reasons please.
one thing is tha the final report by the PJ who have more evidence than we have stated that it was highly unlikely maddie left the apartment herself...so not just unlikely...but highly unlikely
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one thing is tha the final report by the PJ who have more evidence than we have stated that it was highly unlikely maddie left the apartment herself...so not just unlikely...but highly unlikely
Because that report does not give its reasons for saying that, I treat it as a matter of the writer's opinion.
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one thing is tha the final report by the PJ who have more evidence than we have stated that it was highly unlikely maddie left the apartment herself...so not just unlikely...but highly unlikely
Since you mention that report... what was it they suspected was likely? ah yes the parents covering up an abduction suspecting MBM had an accident tsk. You going with that one Davel?
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Since you mention that report... what was it they suspected was likely? ah yes the parents covering up an abduction suspecting MBM had an accident tsk. You going with that one Davel?
the final report didnt say that...read it again
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Because that report does not give its reasons for saying that, I treat it as a matter of the writer's opinion.
Then you are wrong...
As a remote hypothesis, the possibility of the minor leaving the apartment by her own means was explored – that would be highly unlikely physically – and after, because of an accident or by a third person intervention, she would have disappeared.
so it says the option was explored...that means discussed...so its a joint opinion by those who have all the evidence...we dont have all the evidence. You can dismiss it as meaningless but then you are dismmissing a piece of evidence which could well mean your conclusion is flawed
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Since you mention that report... what was it they suspected was likely? ah yes the parents covering up an abduction suspecting MBM had an accident tsk. You going with that one Davel?
Sorry, I have never heard that. Could we have a cite for it please
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Casal McCann esteve em Portugal e foi informado pela PJ de planos para reabrir processo
McCann was in Portugal and was informed by the PJ of plans to reopen the process.
Advogado de Kate e Gerry admite que família se constitua assistente no inquérito.
Kate and Gerry's lawyer admits that the family is an assistant to the investigation.
Snip
A reanálise do processo volta a centrar a investigação na tese de rapto, a principal linha seguida pela Scotland Yard, que também abriu uma investigação ao desaparecimento de Maddie. A equipa da PJ do Porto terá ficado convicta dessa tese perante a observação cuidada de toda a informação existente no processo.
The reanalysis of the case returns to focus the investigation on the kidnapping thesis, the main line followed by Scotland Yard, who also opened an investigation into the disappearance of Maddie. The PJ do Porto team was convinced of this thesis in view of the careful observation of all the information in the process.
https://www.publico.pt/2013/10/24/sociedade/noticia/ministerio-publico-reabre-processo-do-desaparecimento-de-maddie-1610207
I really have no idea how much importance the Policia Judiciaria paid to whether the kidnapper entered the McCann apartment via the door and then opened the window and raised the shutter from the inside or whether the kidnapper raised the shutter and opened the window from the outside.
The important issue in my opinion is that having reviewed all the available evidence, the PJ found enough to justify reopening Madeleine's case firmly "centrada na tese do rapto" ~ "centered on the rapture thesis" and that they took the trouble to invite Kate and Gerry McCann to Portugal to inform them of that in person.
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one thing is tha the final report by the PJ who have more evidence than we have stated that it was highly unlikely maddie left the apartment herself...so not just unlikely...but highly unlikely
Highly unlikely means just that. It does not mean impossible.
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Highly unlikely means just that. It does not mean impossible.
I think we all know what highly unlikely means
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I think we all know what highly unlikely means
Jolly good. In that case I look forward to the term not being used as a substitute for impossible.
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Jolly good. In that case I look forward to the term not being used as a substitute for impossible.
It's not quite ... but almost saying that it is impossible, doncha agree Alice ?
-snip- "the possibility of the minor leaving the apartment by her own means was explored – that would be highly unlikely physically"
And that was from the final report by the PJ
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Sorry, I have never heard that. Could we have a cite for it please
Oh I think it is well documented that the PJ didn't believe the jemmied shutters story...
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Oh I think it is well documented that the PJ didn't believe the jemmied shutters story...
Cite means show us the proof. Please
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It's not quite ... but almost saying that it is impossible, doncha agree Alice ?
-snip- "the possibility of the minor leaving the apartment by her own means was explored – that would be highly unlikely physically"
And that was from the final report by the PJ
I see no reason why a 4-year-old child in perfect health could leave an unlocked apartment by her own volition. We know from other child wanderings that children much younger than this can get out into the street if determined enough and can walk considerable distances on their own. I find it extremely sinister that any investigator could discount the possibility that Madeleine got out of the apartment on her own given the circumstances, was this simply part of the bigger plan to implicate the parents?
The unexplained movement of the doors within the apartment, the absence of any forensic evidence pertaining to an intruder and the route taken by two tracker dogs tasked with following Madeleine McCann's scent shortly after the disappearance all point the same way.
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None!
I have voiced my concern about the time line and the descriptive of 'checking'
There was never any physical checking- just listening at the door. there was no planned schedule either- however, as luck would have it Kate and Gerry, thanks to a moving door angle and their sharp eyes claimed they checked that very same night. coincidence?
MBM was last seen by an independent witness at ? and was found to be missing at ?
Couple of hours there to play with I would suspect.
It is these wee things that cause the niggle.
1) I cant remember seeing anything that confirms that there was no physical checking, just listening at the door
2) Nor can I remember that there was no planned schedule.
Perhaps you would be so kind as to show where you got this from.
With my own son, i never physically checked tho, cos the minute the bedroom door moved an inch, he was wide awake. It was almost like he was lieing there watching it.
Also, processing any noises. TV off, we crept up to bed, used the loo, but didn't flush it and silently went to bed. The minute that we were dropping off to sleep, he would yell. Every night for years!
Oh, my it was ever lucky that I was patient, cos hubby wasn't.
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I see no reason why a 4-year-old child in perfect health could leave an unlocked apartment by her own volition. We know from other child wanderings that children much younger than this can get out into the street if determined enough and can walk considerable distances on their own. I find it extremely sinister that any investigator could discount the possibility that Madeleine got out of the apartment on her own given the circumstances, was this simply part of the bigger plan to implicate the parents?
The unexplained movement of the doors within the apartment, the absence of any forensic evidence pertaining to an intruder and the route taken by two tracker dogs tasked with following Madeleine McCann's scent shortly after the disappearance all point the same way.
Was it not the parents who were telling this to the MSM and anyone else who would listen? She couldn't have got out of the apartment Kate said, because Kate said she knew what happened she was there.?
I believe this is part of the PR to dismiss this, in the beginning people believed in an abductor so sent money to help the family- who rightly /wrongly exploited this by seeking more money. No one was aware that MBM challenged her parents re leaving them alone and sean crying, no one was aware that Kate left a door unlocked. If the woke and wandered information got out in the first few hours ,like the 'abductor jemmied shutters story, I believe we would be looking at a very different public opinion and the PJ would have had a better understanding of what happened. Just my opinion.
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Was it not the parents who were telling this to the MSM and anyone else who would listen? She couldn't have got out of the apartment Kate said, because Kate said she knew what happened she was there.?
I believe this is part of the PR to dismiss this, in the beginning people believed in an abductor so sent money to help the family- who rightly /wrongly exploited this by seeking more money. No one was aware that MBM challenged her parents re leaving them alone and sean crying, no one was aware that Kate left a door unlocked. If the woke and wandered information got out in the first few hours ,like the 'abductor jemmied shutters story, I believe we would be looking at a very different public opinion and the PJ would have had a better understanding of what happened. Just my opinion.
Citation please for "She couldn't have got out of the apartment Kate said, because Kate said she knew what happened"
When and where did Kate say that pls?
This is the third cite that I have had to ask you for tonight, but as yet no sensible response.
If you dont know it, then at least have the decency to not express it ... or at least to reword it into a more acceptable form. Thank you
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Two factors... Was the front door locked with a key..... And therefore could not be opened..
How stiff was the patio door... Could maddie open it herself..
These, are two questions no one has, the, answer to here but could explain why the final report reached the conclusion it did
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Two factors... Was the front door locked with a key..... And therefore could not be opened..
How stiff was the patio door... Could maddie open it herself..
These, are two questions no one has, the, answer to here but could explain why the final report reached the conclusion it did
It was established that the frontdoor key was left on the kitchen worktop while the parents dined at the tapas restaurant which contradicted Gerry McCann's initial claim that he entered the apartment using the front door. Did either parent ever claim to have security locked the front door using the key or was it left so that it could still be opened from the inside without the key?
As for the patio door, there are no reports on record stating that it was stiff or hard to open.
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It was established that the frontdoor key had been left on the kitchen worktop which proved Gerry McCann's initial claim that he entered the apartment using the front door to be false. Was the front door double locked using the key or could it have been opened from the inside.
As for the patio door, there are no reports on record stating that it was stiff or hard to open.
you havent answerred either point...could you tell me with a cite if the front door was locked with a key or not..
could you tell me if Maddie was physically able to open the patio door...with a cite...
the final PJ report said it was highly unlikely that physically maddie could have left the apartment herself...which suggests to me she could not open the doors
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you havent answerred either point...could you tell me with a cite if the front door was locked with a key or not..
could you tell me if Maddie was physically able to open the patio door...with a cite...
the final PJ report said it was highly unlikely that physically maddie could have left the apartment herself...which suggests to me she could not open the doors
There is no evidence to suggest a four-year-old couldn't open the patio door. Had the door been hard to open we would have heard about it as a matter of course. Same with the front door, neither parent has ever claimed to have locked it with the key as far as I recall. So that leaves a patio door easily slid open and a front door which also may have been just as easily opened. Hardly what one would call a secure environment for three toddlers.
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There is no evidence to suggest a four-year-old couldn't open the patio door. Had the door been hard to open we would have heard about it as a matter of course.
You are making an assumption... You don't know if the door was difficult to open... Or how difficult it was to open
The PJ must have had, a, reason to say what they did... They obviously we're not convinced by the sniffer dogs
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You are making an assumption... You don't know if the door was difficult to open... Or how difficult it was to open
The PJ must have had, a, reason to say what they did... They obviously we're not convinced by the sniffer dogs
I think the PJ were given a bum steer by Tanner. At least Redwood implied as much.
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I think the PJ were given a bum steer by Tanner. At least Redwood implied as much.
Tanner told what she saw and it seems she was correct
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Tanner told what she saw and it seems she was correct
Seems she saw a tourist carrying his daughter...shock horror!! 😱
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Seems she saw a tourist carrying his daughter...shock horror!! 😱
Was she to know that at the time?
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Seems she saw a tourist carrying his daughter...shock horror!! 😱
it makes you wonder...or not... why the PJ didnt manage to identify him
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it makes you wonder...or not... why the PJ didnt manage to identify him
The important part imo is that the PJ were correct to discount this sighting as unreliable.
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The important part imo is that the PJ were correct to discount this sighting as unreliable.
What part of it was unreliable, in your opinion?
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I think the PJ were given a bum steer by Tanner. At least Redwood implied as much.
I think they were being directed by many of those involved.
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I think they were being directed by many of those involved.
So SY must be acting independently
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So SY must be acting independently
Why?
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So SY must be acting independently
Seeing as they have no jurisdiction in Portugal what would be the point of that.
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What part of it was unreliable, in your opinion?
The meaning of the Tanner sighting is not determined. From the start Jane did not know what it was she saw, she knows it was a man carrying a child from left to the right. Did the father carrying his daughter walk in the same direction? I thought that would have been the single most important determination.
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The meaning of the Tanner sighting is not determined. From the start Jane did not know what it was she saw, she knows it was a man carrying a child from left to the right. Did the father carrying his daughter walk in the same direction? I thought that would have been the single most important determination.
Maybe it was a subtle way of OG indicating that they didn't believe a word she said.
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Maybe it was a subtle way of OG indicating that they didn't believe a word she said.
I don't think the police play silly b....rs like that.
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Maybe it was a subtle way of OG indicating that they didn't believe a word she said.
Jane just made a simple observation she was walking in that direction toward the corner, so she was in a better position to see the man walking than was Jez or Gerry.
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It was established that the frontdoor key was left on the kitchen worktop while the parents dined at the tapas restaurant which contradicted Gerry McCann's initial claim that he entered the apartment using the front door. Did either parent ever claim to have security locked the front door using the key or was it left so that it could still be opened from the inside without the key?
As for the patio door, there are no reports on record stating that it was stiff or hard to open.
What might be too stiff for a small 3 -4 y.o. might be simplicity itself for an adult.
At 80 and having been quite serriously ill, I am now unable to open many things that all of you can. I cant open screw tops and also cannot open 2 litre bottle of milk much of the time. I even find peeling oranges virtually too much.
Madeleine was little, her push on the patio door was delivered tpp low down .... and unless an extremely smooth running door, would tend to jam it rather than facilitate the sliding action.
Kate and Gerry are the only ones who would have any idea if Madeleine could open the front door. I have my doubts ... they believe she couldn't
..... and where were Madeleines finger prints ?
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snip ...
..... and where were Madeleines finger prints ?
I didn't find any evidence that they checked the front door for finger prints.