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Scotland Yards investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has failed absymally to turn up any significant new evidence. Over £11 million has been spent in the search for the missing youngster and still nobody has been arrested in connection with any crime. SY are no doubt severely embarrassed by their inability to bring anything new to the case.
Is it about time Operation Grange was shut down?
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Scotland Yards investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has failed absymally to turn up any significant new evidence. Over £11 million has been spent in the search for the missing youngster and still nobody has been arrested in connection with any crime. SY are no doubt severely embarrassed by their inability to bring anything new to the case.
Is it about time Operation Grange was shut down?
They should make public their findings IMO.
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They should make public their findings IMO.
I agree it would certainly help but are they limited by the Portuguese secrecy
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I agree it would certainly help but are they limited by the Portuguese secrecy
That never stopped Redwood.
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Scotland Yards investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has failed absymally to turn up any significant new evidence. Over £11 million has been spent in the search for the missing youngster and still nobody has been arrested in connection with any crime. SY are no doubt severely embarrassed by their inability to bring anything new to the case.
Is it about time Operation Grange was shut down?
Effectively it is isn't it?
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Scotland Yards investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has failed absymally to turn up any significant new evidence. Over £11 million has been spent in the search for the missing youngster and still nobody has been arrested in connection with any crime. SY are no doubt severely embarrassed by their inability to bring anything new to the case.
Is it about time Operation Grange was shut down?
Is there an active investigation? the latest monies didn't even have a figure,it could any thing up to £150,000 I believe the Mail said,meaning it could be pretty low.
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Is there an active investigation? the latest monies didn't even have a figure,it could any thing up to £150,000 I believe the Mail said,meaning it could be pretty low.
Didn't Abraham Lincoln say that you can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time?
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OG will not make any part of the investigation public. Whether the Portuguese do is another matter.
I myself think we’ll have a conclusion.
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Is there an active investigation? the latest monies didn't even have a figure,it could any thing up to £150,000 I believe the Mail said,meaning it could be pretty low.
In this day and age 150 grand don't buy many bodies with their associated overheads for very long.
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Scotland Yards investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has failed absymally to turn up any significant new evidence. Over £11 million has been spent in the search for the missing youngster and still nobody has been arrested in connection with any crime. SY are no doubt severely embarrassed by their inability to bring anything new to the case.
Is it about time Operation Grange was shut down?
I'm still not sure how you guys are all in the know about what Operation Grange have and haven't uncovered. Do you get regular private briefings with them or what?
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In this day and age 150 grand don't buy many bodies with their associated overheads for very long.
The strange thing with that was the sudden increase from £80+ grand up to £154,000.
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Scotland Yards investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has failed absymally to turn up any significant new evidence. Over £11 million has been spent in the search for the missing youngster and still nobody has been arrested in connection with any crime. SY are no doubt severely embarrassed by their inability to bring anything new to the case.
Is it about time Operation Grange was shut down?
A better question IMO would be: despite the fact that the Met has said that there is still an investigative opportunity which may lead to the discovery of Madeleine McCann or at least what happened to her, is it time to close down Operation Grange because enough money has already been spent?
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A better question IMO would be: despite the fact that the Met has said that there is still an investigative opportunity which may lead to the discovery of Madeleine McCann or at least what happened to her, is it time to close down Operation Grange because enough money has already been spent?
The lesson to the police departments as to how to solve this sort of crime is going to be more valuable than the 11 million spent so far.
I just hope someone is learning from the mistakes.
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The lesson to the police departments as to how to solve this sort of crime is going to be more valuable than the 11 million spent so far.
I just hope someone is learning from the mistakes.
Unless the case is solved there will be no lessons to be learned except perhaps the inadvisability of trying to solve a crime which was committed 4 years previously and 1,500 miles away. I would imagine there's no such thing as a perfect investigation, there will always be mistakes.
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Unless the case is solved there will be no lessons to be learned except perhaps the inadvisability of trying to solve a crime which was committed 4 years previously and 1,500 miles away. I would imagine there's no such thing as a perfect investigation, there will always be mistakes.
I was just working through the implications of locking down the home of a missing child the moment the child is reported missing. Imagine if the first step of the GNR was to find alternative accommodation for the McCanns?
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I was just working through the implications of locking down the home of a missing child the moment the child is reported missing. Imagine if the first step of the GNR was to find alternative accommodation for the McCanns?
I don't think any police force would have moved the family out of their apartment immediately, so there's no reason why the GNR would do it.
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I don't think any police force would have moved the family out of their apartment immediately, so there's no reason why the GNR would do it.
I was thinking of what could be done in the future. Learning from the mistakes. If the mistake was not to secure the house early enough work out a policy to secure the family home ASAP.
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It's up to SY and OG to decide when they wind up the investigation and not public opinion. Otherwise that is not justice. And they will make public their findings when the appropriate time comes, they are not obliged to give a running summary for the public's satisfaction. BTW how do you know that they are facing defeat?
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I was thinking of what could be done in the future. Learning from the mistakes. If the mistake was not to secure the house early enough work out a policy to secure the family home ASAP.
How early is early?
I am currently working with a timeframe of Kate raised the alarm around 10.05 pm and the GNR first reached APARTMENT 5A at around 11.20 pm.
At that point they carried out the due diligences. Namely talking to the parents and searching the apartment.
We are missing a big chunk of information. While we know that two calls were made to the GNR, the first at 10.41 pm, we do not know the content of those calls. I don't know whether they were about a missing child, or an abducted child.
Matthew Oldlfield in his rog seemed to think that around 10.15 pm it was simply a missing child, and failed to press for a call to the police.
I have no information about what Gerry told the GNR when they met at OC reception.
So what 'intelligence' did the GNR have when they arrived at 5A?
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I don't think OG should be wound down as they face defeat. Who says they will face defeat? We don't know what they have discovered. The money would surely have been a waste if they are not able to investigate the final lead, let them do their work and then we can see if they are defeated or not.
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They've been on this 'last lead' for quite some time. Will you still be saying the same thing in 2 or 3 years time if they've still got one last lead?
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They've been on this 'last lead' for quite some time. Will you still be saying the same thing in 2 or 3 years time if they've still got one last lead?
Hogan Howe April 2016:
Well, I thought it was clear(?), which is first of all, the line of inquiry that is being pursued, that obviously is important, it's important in the coming months that is resolved and I think it will be, if something new comes forward of course we'll investigate it, but that line of inquiry probably is, at the moment, is the conclusion of this inquiry.
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I was thinking of what could be done in the future. Learning from the mistakes. If the mistake was not to secure the house early enough work out a policy to secure the family home ASAP.
Just because you think it might have been a mistake doesn't mean it is. Some mistakes have already been acknowledged; assuming that UK FLO's may be of use, for example.
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I don't think OG should be wound down as they face defeat. Who says they will face defeat? We don't know what they have discovered. The money would surely have been a waste if they are not able to investigate the final lead, let them do their work and then we can see if they are defeated or not.
Seems judging by the amount given, they will be working part time,
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I'm still not sure how you guys are all in the know about what Operation Grange have and haven't uncovered. Do you get regular private briefings with them or what?
Remind me. When was the last time they travelled to Luz to interview anyone?
It's all very well sitting on their backsides in London claiming to be following one more lead when in reality they still haven't really got a clue what actually befell her. If they did know for sure what happened to Maddie we would have heard it from the horses mouth long ago.
All in my honest opinion.
(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/horses-mouth-cartoon-illustration-saying-42789072.jpg)
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I was just working through the implications of locking down the home of a missing child the moment the child is reported missing. Imagine if the first step of the GNR was to find alternative accommodation for the McCanns?
It didn't help that there was initial confusion as to what had occurred. Had Maddie strayed or had someone lifted her? And if someone lifted her was it from the apartment or from the road outside??
Nearly eleven years on those same questions have still not been answered.
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Remind me. When was the last time they travelled to Luz to interview anyone?
It's all very well sitting on their backsides in London claiming to be following one more lead when in reality they still haven't really got a clue what actually befell her. If they did know for sure what happened to Maddie we would have heard it from the horses mouth long ago.
All in my honest opinion.
(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/horses-mouth-cartoon-illustration-saying-42789072.jpg)
When extra money has been asked for, do you assume as I do, that facts, evidence have to be presented to justify the extra money?
Or do you believe that extra money is given without any need for evidence of continuing solid leads to be pursued.
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Who can tell?
The HO are as equally unforthcoming as OG
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Who can tell?
The HO are as equally unforthcoming as OG
Surely you must assume that facts, evidence must be presented when extra funding is asked for?
If not, then you must assume you that" good money" is thrown at the investigation without any proof that it is required.
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How early is early?
I am currently working with a timeframe of Kate raised the alarm around 10.05 pm and the GNR first reached APARTMENT 5A at around 11.20 pm.
At that point they carried out the due diligences. Namely talking to the parents and searching the apartment.
We are missing a big chunk of information. While we know that two calls were made to the GNR, the first at 10.41 pm, we do not know the content of those calls. I don't know whether they were about a missing child, or an abducted child.
Matthew Oldlfield in his rog seemed to think that around 10.15 pm it was simply a missing child, and failed to press for a call to the police.
I have no information about what Gerry told the GNR when they met at OC reception.
So what 'intelligence' did the GNR have when they arrived at 5A?
Good points but should be a separate topic really.
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Surely you must assume that facts, evidence must be presented when extra funding is asked for?
If not, then you must assume you that" good money" is thrown at the investigation without any proof that it is required.
I have no idea of the procedure used by the HO. Do you or are you just expressing your opinion?
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Just because you think it might have been a mistake doesn't mean it is. Some mistakes have already been acknowledged; assuming that UK FLO's may be of use, for example.
I'm not aware there was criticism of the UK FLOs, do you have the reference for that?
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I have no idea of the procedure used by the HO. Do you or are you just expressing your opinion?
I was making an educated guess, assumption and wondering what your assumption, educated guess might be.
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It's up to SY and OG to decide when they wind up the investigation and not public opinion. Otherwise that is not justice. And they will make public their findings when the appropriate time comes, they are not obliged to give a running summary for the public's satisfaction. BTW how do you know that they are facing defeat?
well said!
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Remind me. When was the last time they travelled to Luz to interview anyone?
It's all very well sitting on their backsides in London claiming to be following one more lead when in reality they still haven't really got a clue what actually befell her. If they did know for sure what happened to Maddie we would have heard it from the horses mouth long ago.
All in my honest opinion.
(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/horses-mouth-cartoon-illustration-saying-42789072.jpg)
Well obviously they don't know "for sure" yet, but they are still investigating a lead. Do you think they should give up now while there is still a lead to pursue?
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It's up to SY and OG to decide when they wind up the investigation and not public opinion. Otherwise that is not justice. And they will make public their findings when the appropriate time comes, they are not obliged to give a running summary for the public's satisfaction. BTW how do you know that they are facing defeat?
A post I missed and agree with Vertigo
Well said.
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When extra money has been asked for, do you assume as I do, that facts, evidence have to be presented to justify the extra money?
Or do you believe that extra money is given without any need for evidence of continuing solid leads to be pursued.
Until SY tell us differently I would think the money is merely to be used for a mopping up exercise, failing that, a last ditch attempt at salvation. Redwood spent the last of his kitty on a wild hunch exploratory in Praia da Luz and came up empty. Maybe Mss Walls or whoever has taken over the poisoned chalice now will do better?
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It's up to SY and OG to decide when they wind up the investigation and not public opinion. Otherwise that is not justice. And they will make public their findings when the appropriate time comes, they are not obliged to give a running summary for the public's satisfaction. BTW how do you know that they are facing defeat?
I wouldn't hold your breath. I predict they will find nothing and report just as much. That's the way the police work in this country, they only like to publicize the successes, the failures are usually swept under the proverbial carpet.
SY are hamstrung in what they can and cannot do in this case according to a very senior officer, they have thus been at a distinct disadvantage from the outset. Until that changes, the crimes that we do know about will go uninvestiged and unpunished.
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I wouldn't hold your breath. I predict they will find nothing and report just as much. That's the way the police work in this country, they only like to publicize the successes, the failures are usually swept under the proverbial carpet.
Perhaps it would be wiser not to pre-judge the outcome?
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Until SY tell us differently I would think the money is merely to be used for a mopping up exercise, failing that, a last ditch attempt at salvation. Redwood spent the last of his kitty on a wild hunch exploratory in Praia da Luz and came up empty. Maybe Mss Walls or whoever has taken over the poisoned chalice now will do better?
So when asking for extra money, SY present nothing to further their investigation?
Just ask for more money to mop up!
You seem to have a very informed opinion of how the investigation is proceeding.
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So when asking for extra money, SY present nothing to further their investigation?
Just ask for more money to mop up!
You seem to have a very informed opinion of how the investigation is proceeding.
It's called reading between the lines. Watch this space.
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So when asking for extra money, SY present nothing to further their investigation?
Just ask for more money to mop up!
You seem to have a very informed opinion of how the investigation is proceeding.
Angelo must have an inside track...maybe.
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I'm not aware there was criticism of the UK FLOs, do you have the reference for that?
In the Operation task debrief. It was acknowledged that Foreign Office support was the most appropriate.
http://library.college.police.uk/docs/npia/Strategic-debrief-operation-task-2009.pdf
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I wouldn't hold your breath. I predict they will find nothing and report just as much. That's the way the police work in this country, they only like to publicize the successes, the failures are usually swept under the proverbial carpet.
SY are hamstrung in what they can and cannot do in this case according to a very senior officer, they have thus been at a distinct disadvantage from the outset. Until that changes, the crimes that we do know about will go uninvestiged and unpunished.
How do you account for stuff like this then, if it's true that the UK police usually sweep their failures under the proverbial carpet?
"The Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) is now investigating the “actions and decisions” of Dorset police officers. The IOPC said that the police had referred themselves to the watchdog after an internal review. The move was welcomed by Miss Pope’s family" - from today's Times newspaper re the botched investigation into Gaia Pope's disappearance..
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How do you account for stuff like this then, if it's true that the UK police usually sweep their failures under the proverbial carpet?
"The Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) is now investigating the “actions and decisions” of Dorset police officers. The IOPC said that the police had referred themselves to the watchdog after an internal review. The move was welcomed by Miss Pope’s family" - from today's Times newspaper re the botched investigation into Gaia Pope's disappearance..
What do you expect to come out of that apart from the usual we'll learn from our mistakes?
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What do you expect to come out of that apart from the usual we'll learn from our mistakes?
Learning from mistakes is a positive in my opinion, what do you think should happen?
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It's called reading between the lines. Watch this space.
I will.
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I will.
No blinking is allowed either!
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Remind me. When was the last time they travelled to Luz to interview anyone?
It's all very well sitting on their backsides in London claiming to be following one more lead when in reality they still haven't really got a clue what actually befell her. If they did know for sure what happened to Maddie we would have heard it from the horses mouth long ago.
All in my honest opinion.
(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/horses-mouth-cartoon-illustration-saying-42789072.jpg)
If there has been a crackdown on leaks, there's no way of knowing whether the Met have been over recently or not.
There's also the possibility that the person (s) isn't in PT. If so, there may have been trips to work with police forces in other countries to track him/her/them down.
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If there has been a crackdown on leaks, there's no way of knowing whether the Met have been over recently or not.
There's also the possibility that the person (s) isn't in PT. If so, there may have been trips to work with police forces in other countries to track him/her/them down.
Or even in this country, in which case no foreign trips would be required.
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Learning from mistakes is a positive in my opinion, what do you think should happen?
Not making them in the first place, SO are we to assume that all private investigators and two police forces are all idiots ,incompetents and 'NOT DOING NOTHING to 'find our little girl"? surely that must be the case? OR are we still sticking to 'Amaral is wot dun it'
My opinion is let them have this shot, see what comes of it. It is interesting the read the PJ report/files and didn't feel the need to go over that ground? why not. I do think the public should be told exactly what cost so much money when the case is wound down/archived.
One thing I am sure about- the tapas have got a lot to answer for... and it would seem they are sticking the proverbial fingers at those who do genuinely seek justice for MBM.
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Or even in this country, in which case no foreign trips would be required.
Yes, that last lead could be in the UK, or anywhere else - not necessarily in PT.
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Yes, that last lead could be in the UK, or anywhere else - not necessarily in PT.
Is a trip to Mars ruled out?
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Is a trip to Mars ruled out?
Have you ANY idea what that would do to the budget ? ?8)@)-)
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Have you ANY idea what that would do to the budget ? ?8)@)-)
Elon Musk could come up with a solution.
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The Met Police has applied for extra funding but the Home Office has refused to say how the amount as it confirmed the money had already been approved.
Home Secretary Amber Rudd is understood to have blocked the amount earmarked for Operation Grange being revealed.
A Home Office spokesperson said: “We are not publicising the figure applied for by the Metropolitan Police and the amount given this time.
“There is a lot of sensitivity surrounding this case and it is a challenging time for the Government.
“We remain committed to the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine and advised the MPS last month that an application for Special Grant funding is being granted.”
A Scotland Yard spokesperson said: “You couldn’t get a more emotive case than this and there is still work left to do.
"We asked for more funding for a final line of inquiry that is still being investigated.
"We can never say how close we really are for operational reasons, which could alert a suspect we are closing in.
“But a request for more money would never have been made if there was nothing left to chase.
“We are grateful to the Home Office for approving our special grant request but we are not divulging how much we have been given.”
The police are also declining to say if the “final line of inquiry” is the same lead they have been chasing for the past three years and if any arrests are imminent.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6056658/madeleine-mccann-cash-grant-150000-amber-rudd-secret-public-backlash/
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The Met Police has applied for extra funding but the Home Office has refused to say how the amount as it confirmed the money had already been approved.
Home Secretary Amber Rudd is understood to have blocked the amount earmarked for Operation Grange being revealed.
A Home Office spokesperson said: “We are not publicising the figure applied for by the Metropolitan Police and the amount given this time.
“There is a lot of sensitivity surrounding this case and it is a challenging time for the Government.
“We remain committed to the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine and advised the MPS last month that an application for Special Grant funding is being granted.”
A Scotland Yard spokesperson said: “You couldn’t get a more emotive case than this and there is still work left to do.
"We asked for more funding for a final line of inquiry that is still being investigated.
"We can never say how close we really are for operational reasons, which could alert a suspect we are closing in.
“But a request for more money would never have been made if there was nothing left to chase.
“We are grateful to the Home Office for approving our special grant request but we are not divulging how much we have been given.”
The police are also declining to say if the “final line of inquiry” is the same lead they have been chasing for the past three years and if any arrests are imminent.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6056658/madeleine-mccann-cash-grant-150000-amber-rudd-secret-public-backlash/
&%%6. So possibly unlimited funds until they find something out that they are investigating .. or draw a blank ... and have to give up.
How interesting! Thanks PFinder
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The Met Police has applied for extra funding but the Home Office has refused to say how the amount as it confirmed the money had already been approved.
Home Secretary Amber Rudd is understood to have blocked the amount earmarked for Operation Grange being revealed.
A Home Office spokesperson said: “We are not publicising the figure applied for by the Metropolitan Police and the amount given this time.
“There is a lot of sensitivity surrounding this case and it is a challenging time for the Government.
“We remain committed to the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine and advised the MPS last month that an application for Special Grant funding is being granted.”
A Scotland Yard spokesperson said: “You couldn’t get a more emotive case than this and there is still work left to do.
"We asked for more funding for a final line of inquiry that is still being investigated.
"We can never say how close we really are for operational reasons, which could alert a suspect we are closing in.
“But a request for more money would never have been made if there was nothing left to chase.
“We are grateful to the Home Office for approving our special grant request but we are not divulging how much we have been given.”
The police are also declining to say if the “final line of inquiry” is the same lead they have been chasing for the past three years and if any arrests are imminent.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6056658/madeleine-mccann-cash-grant-150000-amber-rudd-secret-public-backlash/
All very secretive and hush hush for an investigation which is supposed to be a straightforward stranger abduction enquiry or as I suspect, there is more going on here then has ever been revealed to the public. If this case becomes any more bizarre I can see a Public Inquiry being demanded.
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All very secretive and hush hush for an investigation which is supposed to be a straightforward stranger abduction enquiry or as I suspect, there is more going on here then has ever been revealed to the public. If this case becomes any more bizarre I can see a Public Inquiry being demanded.
Oh, really?
Seems to me that the case has developed some other by-lines like people trafficking maybe. The Slave trade etc. So global and massive ... needs further funding. It must be solved if at all possible
AIMO only
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All very secretive and hush hush for an investigation which is supposed to be a straightforward stranger abduction enquiry or as I suspect, there is more going on here then has ever been revealed to the public. If this case becomes any more bizarre I can see a Public Inquiry being demanded.
In my opinion a Public Inquiry is inevitable unless OG or the PJ find the perpetrator(s) and secure a conviction.
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All very secretive and hush hush for an investigation which is supposed to be a straightforward stranger abduction enquiry or as I suspect, there is more going on here then has ever been revealed to the public. If this case becomes any more bizarre I can see a Public Inquiry being demanded.
What do you think issupposed to be straight forward about any case of stranger abduction ? Each is different, and each may have it's own sensitivities that would be better not put in the public domain until charges are brought, surely?
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What do you think issupposed to be straight forward about any case of stranger abduction ? Each is different, and each may have it's own sensitivities that would be better not put in the public domain until charges are brought, surely?
Can't give a cite for this stranger abduction can you,with SY refusing to divulge, where are you getting your info from?
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Can't give a cite for this stranger abduction can you,with SY refusing to divulge, where are you getting your info from?
Not from Nichola Wall that# for sure.
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A better question IMO would be: despite the fact that the Met has said that there is still an investigative opportunity which may lead to the discovery of Madeleine McCann or at least what happened to her, is it time to close down Operation Grange because enough money has already been spent?
I don't get the argument, either. Back to what I've said before, what's the point of spending money on getting everything into a database and chasing up loose ends only to shut down before a final lead worth investigating that is still a question mark. If that last (presumably credible) lead turns out to be nothing, then the case will presumably go back to dormant stage, pending anything new.
By the same token, if anything new turns up, whether directly related to Madeleine or to someone else, future costs of starting from zero could be reduced by consulting the work already done.
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In my opinion a Public Inquiry is inevitable unless OG or the PJ find the perpetrator(s) and secure a conviction.
Any idea how that would work in an international investigation?
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In my opinion a Public Inquiry is inevitable unless OG or the PJ find the perpetrator(s) and secure a conviction.
To what end though Gunit,there's still some disquiet about the Stephen Lawrence one from 1999.
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Any idea how that would work in an international investigation?
It doesn't make any difference in my opinion.
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Can't give a cite for this stranger abduction can you,with SY refusing to divulge, where are you getting your info from?
What are you talking about?
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According to one of my Portuguese sources, the last line of Grange investigation include two of the former seven arguidos. Anyone of you has more info about this "last line"?
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According to one of my Portuguese sources, the last line of Grange investigation include two of the former seven arguidos. Anyone of you has more info about this "last line"?
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Welcome back Heri but without any sort of confirmation that is, little more, than gossip
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According to one of my Portuguese sources, the last line of Grange investigation include two of the former seven arguidos. Anyone of you has more info about this "last line"?
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That will get the rumour mill working overtime!
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According to one of my Portuguese sources, the last line of Grange investigation include two of the former seven arguidos. Anyone of you has more info about this "last line"?
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Are you sure there have only been 7 arguidos.... Wasn't malinka an arguido
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Are you sure there have only been 7 arguidos.... Wasn't malinka an arguido
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Kate
Gerry
Murat
Malinka
da Silva
Rodrigues
Ribeiro
AFAIK ...
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.I thought there were 4 burglars but not sure
Kate
Gerry
Murat
Malinka
da Silva
Rodrigues
Ribeiro
AFAIK ...
.
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I thought there were 4 burglars but not sure
3 alleged 'burglars'.
Heri's list is correct.
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3 alleged 'burglars'.
Heri's list is correct.
That's why I said I wasn't sure.... But really without any confirmation this is just gossip
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3 alleged 'burglars'.
Heri's list is correct.
So unless A C Rowley was misleading us......who's left?
Q: How old were the suspects becasuse I think you interviewed them originally through the Portuguese
beginning of July 2014?
MR: By the end of the year we were happy to have brought them out and we were moving on to other
parts of the investigation
http://findmadeleine.com/pdf/ac-rowley-transcript.pdf
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So unless A C Rowley was misleading us......who's left?
Q: How old were the suspects becasuse I think you interviewed them originally through the Portuguese
beginning of July 2014?
MR: By the end of the year we were happy to have brought them out and we were moving on to other
parts of the investigation
http://findmadeleine.com/pdf/ac-rowley-transcript.pdf
In my opinion the important information given was that interviewing the arguidos enabled the investigation to progress further with their enquiries ... meaning that the arguidos weren't the be all and end all of evidence which allowed Madeleine's case to continue.
Remember the old cliché... as one door closes another door opens ?{)(**
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So unless A C Rowley was misleading us......who's left?
Q: How old were the suspects becasuse I think you interviewed them originally through the Portuguese
beginning of July 2014?
MR: By the end of the year we were happy to have brought them out and we were moving on to other
parts of the investigation
http://findmadeleine.com/pdf/ac-rowley-transcript.pdf
Leaves perm 2 from 4.
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Leaves perm 2 from 4.
Seven arguidos in total. Four connected to the OG investigation, but imo dismissed by the end of 2014 according to Rowley. Three original ones left.
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Seven arguidos in total. Four connected to the OG investigation, but imo dismissed by the end of 2014 according to Rowley. Three original ones left.
Only 3 of the list were the burglars?
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Leaves perm 2 from 4.
Are you giving this information any credibility... If so... Why
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Seven arguidos in total. Four connected to the OG investigation, but imo dismissed by the end of 2014 according to Rowley. Three original ones left.
I'm not aware that there are any arguidos at the moment.
When I checked at the time, I couldn't find any statutes about witnesses gaining arguido status due to an overseas investigation wishing to interview them.
My assumption is that that was a tempory status corresponding the best to the UK equivalent of being interviewed under caution and that the status was then lifted. Or that the witnesses themselves had requested the status in order to have a lawyer present.
I haven't looked at version No 200k of the latest PCC recently, though.
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According to one of my Portuguese sources, the last line of Grange investigation include two of the former seven arguidos. Anyone of you has more info about this "last line"?
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Welcome back, Heri
Well that has thrown a bomb in the middle of things, if the info was correct @)(++(*
Good to see that you are still investigating.
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Seven arguidos in total. Four connected to the OG investigation, but imo dismissed by the end of 2014 according to Rowley. Three original ones left.
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But the three "original" were also dismissed by Grange. Strange.
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But the three "original" were also dismissed by Grange. Strange.
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If it's true that they are looking at two again, then clearly they are having second thoughts
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If it's true that they are looking at two again, then clearly they are having second thoughts
Yep, and I am guesssing which two .. using pointers, and they aint the two that you are thinking of ... IMO, of course 8(0(*
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But the three "original" were also dismissed by Grange. Strange.
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Not strange as no police force will spend 12 million and tell you what's really going on lol. IMO they don't spend that much unless they know who they are chasing.
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But the three "original" were also dismissed by Grange. Strange.
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Were they?
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But the three "original" were also dismissed by Grange. Strange.
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And the woman in purple? Where does she fit in ?
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And the woman in purple? Where does she fit in ?
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I have already explained that media questioned me about any Bulgarian employee at Ocean Club. I gave them the name of a man, and added that his wife was also an OC employee.
Any other comments came from the journalists.
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I have already explained that media questioned me about any Bulgarian employee at Ocean Club. I gave them the name of a man, and added that his wife was also an OC employee.
Any other comments came from the journalists.
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Surely you were annoyed at being misrepresented in such a way ? Did you request an apology?
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?
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I have already explained that media questioned me about any Bulgarian employee at Ocean Club. I gave them the name of a man, and added that his wife was also an OC employee.
Any other comments came from the journalists.
Did you speak to Martin Fricker (The Mirror)? If so, did he misquote you?
Spanish criminologist Gonzalez, who has investigated the case for 10 years, is convinced Luisa is the mystery woman.
He said: “I have been combing through all the police files trying to identify who the woman in purple could be.
“It has been widely reported that Yard officers are in Bulgaria.
“Examining all the known statements it seems highly likely the police are seeking the Todorovs.
“They are the only known people with a clear link to Bulgaria.
“I have been unable to trace them in Portugal and believe they could have moved away.
“It is widely known that many workers at the Ocean Club were made redundant so it is possible they went to Bulgaria seeking work.”
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/criminologist-identifies-mysterious-woman-purple-11549497
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Did you speak to Martin Fricker (The Mirror)? If so, did he misquote you?
Spanish criminologist Gonzalez, who has investigated the case for 10 years, is convinced Luisa is the mystery woman.
He said: “I have been combing through all the police files trying to identify who the woman in purple could be.
“It has been widely reported that Yard officers are in Bulgaria.
“Examining all the known statements it seems highly likely the police are seeking the Todorovs.
“They are the only known people with a clear link to Bulgaria.
“I have been unable to trace them in Portugal and believe they could have moved away.
“It is widely known that many workers at the Ocean Club were made redundant so it is possible they went to Bulgaria seeking work.”
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/criminologist-identifies-mysterious-woman-purple-11549497
Doesn’t sound as if he was misquoted to me.
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Doesn’t sound as if he was misquoted to me.
I thought you were of the opinion that the press (particularly the tablopids) simply cannot be trusted to tell the truth about anything, why should this be any different.
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I thought you were of the opinion that the press (particularly the tablopids) simply cannot be trusted to tell the truth about anything, why should this be any different.
I have up until now accepted direct quotes, but it seems even they may be inaccurate.
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I thought you were of the opinion that the press (particularly the tablopids) simply cannot be trusted to tell the truth about anything, why should this be any different.
At least one other member of the forum has been at the receiving end of being handbagged by the tabloids but, whatever ... I fail to see the relevance of this discussion occurring on this particular thread ... in fact I cannot really grasp the relevance of discussion at all since we really are not privy to anything which is going on in the present investigations.
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Surely you were annoyed at being misrepresented in such a way ? Did you request an apology?
Please don't do this. Heri has no sides. And I am not having it.
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Enough of this. Get back On Topic, or Else.
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Did you speak to Martin Fricker (The Mirror)? If so, did he misquote you?
Spanish criminologist Gonzalez, who has investigated the case for 10 years, is convinced Luisa is the mystery woman.
He said: “I have been combing through all the police files trying to identify who the woman in purple could be.
“It has been widely reported that Yard officers are in Bulgaria.
“Examining all the known statements it seems highly likely the police are seeking the Todorovs.
“They are the only known people with a clear link to Bulgaria.
“I have been unable to trace them in Portugal and believe they could have moved away.
“It is widely known that many workers at the Ocean Club were made redundant so it is possible they went to Bulgaria seeking work.”
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/criminologist-identifies-mysterious-woman-purple-11549497
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No. It is fairly right, but they talked about "the woman in purple", and I spoke about "the Bulgarian man at the OC, Todorov, married with Luisa".
And i did not say this: "Spanish criminologist Gonzalez, who has investigated the case for 10 years, is convinced Luisa is the mystery woman." It is not between quotation marks.
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No. It is fairly right, but they talked about "the woman in purple", and I spoke about "the Bulgarian man at the OC, Todorov, married with Luisa".
And i did not say this: "Spanish criminologist Gonzalez, who has investigated the case for 10 years, is convinced Luisa is the mystery woman." It is not between quotation marks.
It seems like Nick Pisa started it all in The Sun. Whether there was any truth in what he said we don't know;
DETECTIVES hunting for Madeleine McCann have travelled to Bulgaria to pursue a new lead, we can reveal.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4843610/madeleine-mccann-woman-in-purple-bulgaria/?utm_source=FBPAGE&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=SprnklrSUNOrganic&UTMX=Editorial%3ATheSun%3AFBLink%3AStatement%3ANews
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Please don't do this. Heri has no sides. And I am not having it.
I didn’t suggest he took sides. I merely asked a perfectly straight forward question. If I was misquoted and my professional credibility as a criminologist had been damaged I would certainly have asked for an apology.
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I didn’t suggest he took sides. I merely asked a perfectly straight forward question. If I was misquoted and my professional credibility as a criminologist had been damaged I would certainly have asked for an apology.
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My professional credibility as a criminologist has not been damaged. It is clear what I had said, and what the journalists had said. If some people merge the two things when reading the media it is ok, it is the risk you may face when you appeared in the BBC and the media ...
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My professional credibility as a criminologist has not been damaged. It is clear what I had said, and what the journalists had said. If some people merge the two things when reading the media it is ok, it is the risk you may face when you appeared in the BBC and the media ...
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Heri can you give me one piece of evidence that you have discovered that wasn’t publicly available already either via the files, the media or a quick trip to PDL ?
For instance I have visited PDL many times myself both before and after Madeleine’s disappearance and I have discovered that at the distance Tanner claims she saw the Tannerman and in the lighting conditions it was impossible for her to have seen the colours and patterns on the fabrics she claimed. Have you checked this out yourself ?
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Heri can you give me one piece of evidence that you have discovered that wasn’t publicly available already either via the files, the media or a quick trip to PDL ?
For instance I have visited PDL many times myself both before and after Madeleine’s disappearance and I have discovered that at the distance Tanner claims she saw the Tannerman and in the lighting conditions it was impossible for her to have seen the colours and patterns on the fabrics she claimed. Have you checked this out yourself ?
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I do not remember to find any discrepancies in Tanner statement about colors and what you can see with Low Pressure Sodium lights warm yellow glow. Persons are able to recognize colors under this condition if they have experience in LPS lights environments.
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I do not remember to find any discrepancies in Tanner statement about colors and what you can see with Low Pressure Sodium lights warm yellow glow. Persons are able to recognize colors under this condition if they have experience in LPS lights environments.
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Did Tanner have such experience?
To find discrepancies you have to test the environment and scenario yourself and see how plausible the description was at the distance she described . Did you do that ?
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Did Tanner have such experience?
To find discrepancies you have to test the environment and scenario yourself and see how plausible the description was at the distance she described . Did you do that ?
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She had at least the experience of 5 previous days when she could see colors in things on daylight and the same things with LP Sodium lights.
And of course I did see that the description is plausible at the distance she described. I was in PdL six times, including one May 3 at night in that corner of PdL.
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Surely the amount of moonlight would play a part.... No doubt someone wil now look at the phases of the moon fir the, date
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Surely the amount of moonlight would play a part.... No doubt someone wil now look at the phases of the moon fir the, date
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The full Moon rose on the sea horizon at about 22:00. So no Moon at the time Jane saw the alleged abductor.
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She had at least the experience of 5 previous days when she could see colors in things on daylight and the same things with LP Sodium lights.
And of course I did see that the description is plausible at the distance she described. I was in PdL six times, including one May 3 at night in that corner of PdL.
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I’m not sure what revelance Tanner’s experience of the previous five day plays.
I have been in PDL many, many more times than six. Did you take another person to help you observe the change in colours due to the lighting ? I did and and it is not simply not possible to see the colours and patterns Tanner did at the distance she described.
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Heri can you give me one piece of evidence that you have discovered that wasn’t publicly available already either via the files, the media or a quick trip to PDL ?
For instance I have visited PDL many times myself both before and after Madeleine’s disappearance and I have discovered that at the distance Tanner claims she saw the Tannerman and in the lighting conditions it was impossible for her to have seen the colours and patterns on the fabrics she claimed. Have you checked this out yourself ?
I hope you have factored in your age, Jane Tanner's age, and eyesight capability of both.
I have visited 5A at 9.15 pm on one 3rd May evening. It is not a perfect match for reasons I am aware of.
I found that although natural light was near its end, I could see the colours described by Jane. I don't know about a pattern.
My thoughts were that if I could still see those colours, then Jane Tanner, with much younger eyes, probably could as well.
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I’m not sure what revelance Tanner’s experience of the previous five day plays.
I have been in PDL many, many more times than six. Did you take another person to help you observe the change in colours due to the lighting ? I did and and it is not simply not possible to see the colours and patterns Tanner did at the distance she described.
Comparison of the three witness statements made by Jane Tanner as recorded in the files ... 4 May 2007 ... 10 May 2007 and 08 April 2008 cause me some puzzlement as to the line of interrogation you have adopted here.
In my opinion there is nothing you, with benefit of hindsight, can add to embellish what Jane actually saw and reported at the time in question. Including her very deep regret that her recollection was not forensically recorded as she would have wished in the immediate aftermath of her sighting when memory was fresh and at its clearest.
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I hope you have factored in your age, Jane Tanner's age, and eyesight capability of both.
I have visited 5A at 9.15 pm on one 3rd May evening. It is not a perfect match for reasons I am aware of.
I found that although natural light was near its end, I could see the colours described by Jane. I don't know about a pattern.
My thoughts were that if I could still see those colours, then Jane Tanner, with much younger eyes, probably could as well.
I’m factoring in all those things. I was younger than Jane with 20/20 vision when I did the experiment so those things were not an issue.
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Comparison of the three witness statements made by Jane Tanner as recorded in the files ... 4 May 2007 ... 10 May 2007 and 08 April 2008 cause me some puzzlement as to the line of interrogation you have adopted here.
In my opinion there is nothing you, with benefit of hindsight, can add to embellish what Jane actually saw and reported at the time in question. Including her very deep regret that her recollection was not forensically recorded as she would have wished in the immediate aftermath of her sighting when memory was fresh and at its clearest.
Not sure why you are puzzled Brietta. Having been at the spot Tanner was, at the time and roughly the same date as Tanner described, when observed at the distance she describes light colours could not be discerned accurately and dark colours simply looked dark. Further patterns, especially the small scale ones seen on Madeleine’s pjs, would have been impossible to see.
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Not sure why you are puzzled Brietta. Having been at the spot Tanner was, at the time and roughly the same date as Tanner described, when observed at the distance she describes light colours could not be discerned accurately and dark colours simply looked dark. Further patterns, especially the small scale ones seen on Madeleine’s pjs, would have been impossible to see.
Actually in retrospect, "puzzled" was probably not quite the word I should have used in the circumstances as it fails to reflect with any precision my thoughts on the matter.
However ... unless you can give an indication of how your analysis of Jane's sighting has any bearing on the topic "Should Operation Grange be wound up as SY face defeat?" consider the discussion closed.
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Back on topic please.
'Should Operation Grange be wound up as SY face defeat?' Thank you.
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Actually in retrospect, "puzzled" was probably not quite the word I should have used in the circumstances as it fails to reflect with any precision my thoughts on the matter.
However ... unless you can give an indication of how your analysis of Jane's sighting has any bearing on the topic "Should Operation Grange be wound up as SY face defeat?" consider the discussion closed.
Can I suggest that if you would like to stop an off topic debate taking place you stop taking part in the debate yourself ?
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I’m not sure what revelance Tanner’s experience of the previous five day plays.
I have been in PDL many, many more times than six. Did you take another person to help you observe the change in colours due to the lighting ? I did and and it is not simply not possible to see the colours and patterns Tanner did at the distance she described.
What distance were you estimating?
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Editorial note to all contributors. Do not refer to 'the abduction' as if it were an established known fact. The correct terminology is 'alleged abductor'. Moderators will edit any posts which contain the incorrect reference.
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Not sure why you are puzzled Brietta. Having been at the spot Tanner was, at the time and roughly the same date as Tanner described, when observed at the distance she describes light colours could not be discerned accurately and dark colours simply looked dark. Further patterns, especially the small scale ones seen on Madeleine’s pjs, would have been impossible to see.
I agree. The distance involved and the fact that it was at night and the man was walking away from Tanner meant that colours would not have been discernible under amber streetlight conditions. I personally think she put two and two together and came up with seven.
As for the thread theme I think OG has passed its sellby date and should be compelled to make public everything they have learned over the last two years.
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I agree. The distance involved and the fact that it was at night and the man was walking away from Tanner meant that colours would not have been discernible under amber streetlight conditions. I personally think she put two and two together and came up with seven.
As for the thread theme I think OG has passed its sellby date and should be compelled to make public everything they have learned over the last two years.
I think they hould be left alone to get on with their job.....I think you will find there is no process to force them to make public everything they know
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The full Moon rose on the sea horizon at about 22:00. So no Moon at the time Jane saw the alleged abductor.
It is very important not to mislead new readers into thinking that there was an abductor given that Maddie's fate has NOT BEEN DETERMINED.
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I think they hould be left alone to get on with their job.....I think you will find there is no process to force them to make public everything they know
But that's just it, are they? As for making information available to the public, they can be compelled to do so by legal means.
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But that's just it, are they? As for making information available to the public, they can be compelled to do so by legal means.
What else are they doing apart from getting on with the job.... I don't see any legal framework for them to be forced to disclosed everthing... Even under FOI they don't have to..
My thoughts are they are being slowed down by having to make repeated ILORs and the portuguese courts are very slow in processing them
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What else are they doing apart from getting on with the job.... I don't see any legal framework for them to be forced to disclosed everthing... Even under FOI they don't have to..
My thoughts are they are being slowed down by having to make repeated ILORs and the portuguese courts are very slow in processing them
Let's face it, the SY effort is a bit of a joke and the sooner it is exposed as such the better.
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Let's face it, the SY effort is a bit of a joke and the sooner it is exposed as such the better.
I think you comment is a bit of a joke... It seems to criticise the PJ is off limits but SY are an official target..
From a forum that claims to be neutral
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What else are they doing apart from getting on with the job.... I don't see any legal framework for them to be forced to disclosed everthing... Even under FOI they don't have to..
My thoughts are they are being slowed down by having to make repeated ILORs and the portuguese courts are very slow in processing them
How many I.L.O.Rs have been issued since Andy Redwood stood down?
IIRC The CPS give a guideline duration of six months to process an I.L.O.R.
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How many I.L.O.Rs have been issued since Andy Redwood stood down?
IIRC The CPS give a guideline duration of six months to process an I.L.O.R.
Then that would explain why the investigation is taking so long
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I’m not sure what revelance Tanner’s experience of the previous five day plays.
I have been in PDL many, many more times than six. Did you take another person to help you observe the change in colours due to the lighting ? I did and and it is not simply not possible to see the colours and patterns Tanner did at the distance she described.
When did you first conduct this experiment?
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Let's face it, the SY effort is a bit of a joke and the sooner it is exposed as such the better.
How can you describe it as a joke when you have virtually no idea what they may have uncovered or what leads they are pursuing or why? How about the current PJ investigation - is that a bit of a joke too?? If not, why not?
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How can you describe it as a joke when you have virtually no idea what they may have uncovered or what leads they are pursuing or why? How about the current PJ investigation - is that a bit of a joke too?? If not, why not?
Is this an exam question?
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Is this an exam question?
No. It's a question. I know you don't like me asking them but tough.
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No. It's a question. I know you don't like me asking them but tough.
Questions are fine - I ask them myself.
Just don't get uptight if you don't get an answer.
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Questions are fine - I ask them myself.
Just don't get uptight if you don't get an answer.
If I got uptight every time I didn't get an answer I would probably have exploded before now.
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Is this an exam question?
The phrase "if not, why not?" certainly makes it read like one!
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If I got uptight every time I didn't get an answer I would probably have exploded before now.
There’s still time.....a hope 8(0(*
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There’s still time.....a hope 8(0(*
You hope I explode? Well that’s nice.
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I’m not sure what revelance Tanner’s experience of the previous five day plays.
I have been in PDL many, many more times than six. Did you take another person to help you observe the change in colours due to the lighting ? I did and and it is not simply not possible to see the colours and patterns Tanner did at the distance she described.
What distance do you have it that Jane saw Tannerman, cos a couple of days ago I was reading , I think, a police report, and the officer said that Jane indicated that Tannerman was only the width, or length, of the room away from her: I cant remember which, but the officer equated that to 5 metres
Please, I cant remember where I saw it, but perhaps others can find it. I had seen that distance mentioned before as well.
5 metres isn't far, just over 16 feet I think ... and whilst I think most people would find it difficult to put into words the distance in metres, relating it to the size of something that the witness was looking at seems more concrete to.
IMO
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What distance do you have it that Jane saw Tannerman, cos a couple of days ago I was reading , I think, a police report, and the officer said that Jane indicated that Tannerman was only the width, or length, of the room away from her: I cant remember which, but the officer equated that to 5 metres
Please, I cant remember where I saw it, but perhaps others can find it. I had seen that distance mentioned before as well.
5 metres isn't far, just over 16 feet I think ... and whilst I think most people would find it difficult to put into words the distance in metres, relating it to the size of something that the witness was looking at seems more concrete to.
IMO
Snip
4078 “How far away from you were they at the closest point?”
Reply “Phew, as, I mean, it’s hard to, sort of thing, but I think I was sort of halfway, it’s probably sort of five metres, I mean, I’m trying to sort of think in terms of this room, but sort of probably just further than that wall, probably sort of five to ten metres id’ say, if, I don’t know how far it is to there, but”.
4078 “I would say probably about, I am just guessing, but two and a half to three metres?”
Reply “Yeah, I’d probably say sort of five, five to ten metres, well probably five, nearer five”.
4078 “So about as far away again the other side of the wall as you are from this side?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah, probably, yeah, sort of, as when I first, when I first saw them”.
4078 “I don’t know why I was looking over there, it’s like I was (inaudible)”.
Reply “I know. But, yeah, I’d say probably, and then obviously I was walking as they were walking, so it would have probably, I don’t know whether it would have gone less or, but, I mean, I wasn’t like staring, you know, it was sort of like a”.
4078 “A passing interest, yeah?”
Reply “Yeah”.
4078 “Right. Okay. Are you okay?”
Reply “Yeah”.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm
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Snip
4078 “How far away from you were they at the closest point?”
Reply “Phew, as, I mean, it’s hard to, sort of thing, but I think I was sort of halfway, it’s probably sort of five metres, I mean, I’m trying to sort of think in terms of this room, but sort of probably just further than that wall, probably sort of five to ten metres id’ say, if, I don’t know how far it is to there, but”.
4078 “I would say probably about, I am just guessing, but two and a half to three metres?”
Reply “Yeah, I’d probably say sort of five, five to ten metres, well probably five, nearer five”.
4078 “So about as far away again the other side of the wall as you are from this side?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah, probably, yeah, sort of, as when I first, when I first saw them”.
4078 “I don’t know why I was looking over there, it’s like I was (inaudible)”.
Reply “I know. But, yeah, I’d say probably, and then obviously I was walking as they were walking, so it would have probably, I don’t know whether it would have gone less or, but, I mean, I wasn’t like staring, you know, it was sort of like a”.
4078 “A passing interest, yeah?”
Reply “Yeah”.
4078 “Right. Okay. Are you okay?”
Reply “Yeah”.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm
Five metres? Just about level with the main door of 5A then.
She noticed the individual's presence exactly when she had just passed by Gerry and Jez who were talking
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER.htm
Confronted, she demonstrated the distance at which the man with the child had passed her, and that was gauged to be about 5 metres.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER-10MAY.htm
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Five metres? Just about level with the main door of 5A then.
She noticed the individual's presence exactly when she had just passed by Gerry and Jez who were talking
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER.htm
Confronted, she demonstrated the distance at which the man with the child had passed her, and that was gauged to be about 5 metres.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER-10MAY.htm
Note. Distances quoted in statements have been ignored and people placed according to
quoted features. For example if Jez’s quoted distances are correct he and Gerry would have been on the lower corner of the car park. If the distance Jane was from the man carrying the child was as adduced by PJ from her statement she would have been halfway up the car park![/b]
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Five metres? Just about level with the main door of 5A then.
She noticed the individual's presence exactly when she had just passed by Gerry and Jez who were talking
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER.htm
Confronted, she demonstrated the distance at which the man with the child had passed her, and that was gauged to be about 5 metres.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER-10MAY.htm
I take "5 meters" to be how close she was to the man not to any door or to Jez and Gerry.
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Note. Distances quoted in statements have been ignored and people placed according to
quoted features. For example if Jez’s quoted distances are correct he and Gerry would have been on the lower corner of the car park. If the distance Jane was from the man carrying the child was as adduced by PJ from her statement she would have been halfway up the car park![/b]
Which car park are you referring to?
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I take "5 meters" to be how close she was to the man not to any door or to Jez and Gerry.
Well she had to be 5 metres from the top of the road if that's where the man was. If you draw a line across she is level with the main door of 5A and with the middle/top part of the entrance to Block 6 car park. She says she had just passed the men, so they were approx. 6-8 metres from the top of the road.
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I think you comment is a bit of a joke... It seems to criticise the PJ is off limits but SY are an official target..
From a forum that claims to be neutral
when and who said the criticism of the Pj is off limits. I have found fault with their investigation sa have other supporters. you are making this up. I think there is a dislike of personal attacks on the PJ/GNR staff by the parents which is vile and disgusting, and childish. It was Kate who stated the 'name calling'
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Well she had to be 5 metres from the top of the road if that's where the man was. If you draw a line across she is level with the main door of 5A and with the middle/top part of the entrance to Block 6 car park. She says she had just passed the men, so they were approx. 6-8 metres from the top of the road.
But both the door and the car park are on the other side of a high wall. "level with the main door of 5A and with the middle/top part of the entrance to Block 6 car park".
She does not estimate where she is in relation to Jez and Gerry when she is just 5 meters away from the man.
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Snip
4078 “How far away from you were they at the closest point?”
Reply “Phew, as, I mean, it’s hard to, sort of thing, but I think I was sort of halfway, it’s probably sort of five metres, I mean, I’m trying to sort of think in terms of this room, but sort of probably just further than that wall, probably sort of five to ten metres id’ say, if, I don’t know how far it is to there, but”.
4078 “I would say probably about, I am just guessing, but two and a half to three metres?”
Reply “Yeah, I’d probably say sort of five, five to ten metres, well probably five, nearer five”.
4078 “So about as far away again the other side of the wall as you are from this side?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah, probably, yeah, sort of, as when I first, when I first saw them”.
4078 “I don’t know why I was looking over there, it’s like I was (inaudible)”.
Reply “I know. But, yeah, I’d say probably, and then obviously I was walking as they were walking, so it would have probably, I don’t know whether it would have gone less or, but, I mean, I wasn’t like staring, you know, it was sort of like a”.
4078 “A passing interest, yeah?”
Reply “Yeah”.
4078 “Right. Okay. Are you okay?”
Reply “Yeah”.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm
Her answer is she doesn't know.
and she wasn't staring, so with a glimpse of a man in the dark, not facing her, carrying a child with no shoes on she noticed the details of the clothes the child was wearing?
Will some one please make up a version that will fit this part of the story... You know make this man an abductor with MBM in his arms. Thanks in advance.
The lace on the pyjama trousers the colour white /pink? I think she remembered these finer details maybe after that night. After talking with Kate N Gerry.? as they claimed on the Oprah show that *holding up pyjamas* these are identical to the ones JT saw a child wearing as she was being 'abducted'...
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But both the door and the car park are on the other side of a high wall. "level with the main door of 5A and with the middle/top part of the entrance to Block 6 car park".
She does not estimate where she is in relation to Jez and Gerry when she is just 5 meters away from the man.
Get a map. draw a horizontal line across the road 6 metres from the top and the line will pass near to those points I mentioned. She had 'just passed' the men, so they weren't that far away. If they were near the passageway they were 30 metres behind her.
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Get a map. draw a horizontal line across the road 6 metres from the top and the line will pass near to those points I mentioned. She had 'just passed' the men, so they weren't that far away. If they were near the passageway they were 30 metres behind her.
Ofcourse we only have her word for this claim, as the men who she brushed past didn't notice her...
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Get a map. draw a horizontal line across the road 6 metres from the top and the line will pass near to those points I mentioned. She had 'just passed' the men, so they weren't that far away. If they were near the passageway they were 30 metres behind her.
Purely as a point of curiosity do you think in Imperial or metric, or neither?
IMO there are a number of issues in this case with people being asked to testify in metric.
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Five metres? Just about level with the main door of 5A then.
She noticed the individual's presence exactly when she had just passed by Gerry and Jez who were talking
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER.htm
Confronted, she demonstrated the distance at which the man with the child had passed her, and that was gauged to be about 5 metres.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER-10MAY.htm
No that is not 5 metres. That is over 10 mettres (measured on Google earth)
The distance from Tannermans path from the patio steps and gate is about 22 metres
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Well she had to be 5 metres from the top of the road if that's where the man was. If you draw a line across she is level with the main door of 5A and with the middle/top part of the entrance to Block 6 car park. She says she had just passed the men, so they were approx. 6-8 metres from the top of the road.
No, she is not.
Try measuring again and you will find the front door is is level with about 10 metres, NOT 5 metres.
Jane intimated 5 metres, so she was about five metres past the level of the front door and NOT level with the front door.
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Well she had to be 5 metres from the top of the road if that's where the man was. If you draw a line across she is level with the main door of 5A and with the middle/top part of the entrance to Block 6 car park. She says she had just passed the men, so they were approx. 6-8 metres from the top of the road.
The word * Just * can mean
1) Just in the past 2 seconds
or
2) Just like 40 seconds ago etc.
The men, Gerry and Jez were NOT chatting 6 - 8 metres from the top of the road.
Why are you trying to confuse things Gunit? The men were chatting by the alleyway and they were over 30 metres away from Tannerman as he crossed
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Get a map. draw a horizontal line across the road 6 metres from the top and the line will pass near to those points I mentioned. She had 'just passed' the men, so they weren't that far away. If they were near the passageway they were 30 metres behind her.
Yep they were 25 - 30 meters behind her.
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Ofcourse we only have her word for this claim, as the men who she brushed past didn't notice her...
No, she didn't brush past them.
The pathway was over 2 metres wide at that point ... and Gerry was on the kerb and Jez in the road. Plenty of room, please dont misinform, mistaken
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The word * Just * can mean
1) Just in the past 2 seconds
or
2) Just like 40 seconds ago etc.
The men, Gerry and Jez were NOT chatting 6 - 8 metres from the top of the road.
Why are you trying to confuse things Gunit? The men were chatting by the alleyway and they were over 30 metres away from Tannerman as he crossed
You are arguing with Jane Tanner, not me.
She noticed the individual's presence exactly when she had just passed by Gerry and Jez who were talking
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER.htm
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Get a map. draw a horizontal line across the road 6 metres from the top and the line will pass near to those points I mentioned. She had 'just passed' the men, so they weren't that far away. If they were near the passageway they were 30 metres behind her.
That was the question we tried to answer once before.
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You are arguing with Jane Tanner, not me.
She noticed the individual's presence exactly when she had just passed by Gerry and Jez who were talking
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER.htm
No, I am arguing with you and your absurdly narrow interpretation of the word * just *.
To fit your agenda ?
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Her answer is she doesn't know.
and she wasn't staring, so with a glimpse of a man in the dark, not facing her, carrying a child with no shoes on she noticed the details of the clothes the child was wearing?
Will some one please make up a version that will fit this part of the story... You know make this man an abductor with MBM in his arms. Thanks in advance.
The lace on the pyjama trousers the colour white /pink? I think she remembered these finer details maybe after that night. After talking with Kate N Gerry.? as they claimed on the Oprah show that *holding up pyjamas* these are identical to the ones JT saw a child wearing as she was being 'abducted'...
The man was crossing the road and immediately on the corner that he was walking towards, there was a street lamp. He was well illuminated by this.
BTW, how do you know that she wasn't didn't have a good look? Having a good look isn't the same as staring. Were you there ?
IMO any woman walking alone along a quiet street at night, would take a very good look at any man near her.
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No, I am arguing with you and your absurdly narrow interpretation of the word * just *.
To fit your agenda ?
As opposed to your absurdly wide interpretation of the word * just *.
To fit your agenda ?
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No that is not 5 metres. That is over 10 mettres (measured on Google earth)
The distance from Tannermans path from the patio steps and gate is about 22 metres
According to Redwood, Tanner didn't see any alleged abductor so it matters not if she was within an inch or a hundred miles of him(alleged abductor).
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As opposed to your absurdly wide interpretation of the word * just *.
To fit your agenda ?
In the context it was used, it means 'immediately after' in my opinion. You may wish to interpret it as '30 metres after' because you, unlike me, do have an agenda.
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Which car park are you referring to?
The one to the north of Block 5.
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The one to the north of Block 5.
This one?
(http://i.imgur.com/MG2ekTc.jpg?1)
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5581.msg199121#msg199121
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drR76h4oy7Q
Make you own minds up about the distance from what would have been similar to Jane's perspective.
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This one?
(http://i.imgur.com/MG2ekTc.jpg?1)
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5581.msg199121#msg199121 OK so from where the person is taking the photo, how far is it in your estimation to the kids bed room window?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drR76h4oy7Q
Make you own minds up about the distance from what would have been similar to Jane's perspective.
That was interesting since the lady taking the video suggests it was the lane up which Jane sees the man carrying the bundle. IMO she got that wrong so did NOT measure the vital distances of steps to the corner of the street.
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The one to the north of Block 5.
I think Jane was pretty much where these people are; directly opposite to the entrance to block 6 car park.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/08/16/article-0-0D70A18F00000578-164_468x317.jpg)
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Yes I had the same impression.
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I think Jane was pretty much where these people are; directly opposite to the entrance to block 6 car park.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/08/16/article-0-0D70A18F00000578-164_468x317.jpg)
I'll go with that with two provisos.
The distance was approx five metres as adduced by the PJ from Ms Tanners statement.
Then five metres is closer to the northern end of the entrance to Block 6 CP.
It becomes interesting if Jez's recollection of distance rather than features is correct; we then have a sort of Castell Key interlock arrangement.... ?>)()<
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As opposed to your absurdly wide interpretation of the word * just *.
To fit your agenda ?
Well I think that most people would consider something that happened less than 40 20 seconds earlier, as being 'Just before' .... but maybe you have a narrow perspective on life?
[Edited: I modified this post because by my next post I had mathematically proven that, at normal walking speed, jane had passed Gerry and Jez only about 19 seconds before.]
Now less than 20 seconds before, is that "Just before"? Of course it is.
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In the context it was used, it means 'immediately after' in my opinion. You may wish to interpret it as '30 metres after' because you, unlike me, do have an agenda.
Oh really, you dont have an agenda?
Fancy my thinking that you had.
The average, healthy human walks at a pace of 3 mph, or 100m in 1 minute, 14 seconds = 74 seconds for 100 metres
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/olympics/athletics/9450234/100m-final-how-fast-could-you-run-it.html
Gerry and Jez were 30 metres from the top of the road (Tannerman) , measured to the line of the footpath going straight across. Jane was 5 metres (Not 6 metres) from Tannerman according to the official estimate given earlier.
Let's make an attempt to get it right.
Gerry and Jez were 30 - 5 = 25 metres behind Jane when she saw Tannerman.
Average walking speed for 100 metres is 74 seconds
25 metres is a quarter of 100 metres
So, the actual likely time was a quarter of the time taken to walk 100 metres.
Therefore the time taken for Jane, from passing Gerry and Jez to first spotting Tannerman, was ...... 74 seconds / 4 = under 19 seconds
IMO, most people would say that 19 seconds could very easily be classed as JUST before !
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In the context it was used, it means 'immediately after' in my opinion. You may wish to interpret it as '30 metres after' because you, unlike me, do have an agenda.
No, I never interpreted it as 30 metres after. I correctly interpreted it as under 19 seconds after.
No time at all
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That was interesting since the lady taking the video suggests it was the lane up which Jane sees the man carrying the bundle. IMO she got that wrong so did NOT measure the vital distances of steps to the corner of the street.
I agree, Rob. She measured the wrong bit for our discussion, but it was interesting cos it showed the layout pictorially. As you say it seems that she got the place where Jane saw Tannerman completely mixed up!
She also got the front and the back of 5A mixed up. That caused a lot of problems in the early days, but I think most people on here now have the front and back sorted, thank gooness!
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I think Jane was pretty much where these people are; directly opposite to the entrance to block 6 car park.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/08/16/article-0-0D70A18F00000578-164_468x317.jpg)
Allowing for perspective, I think Jane was about 4 metres higher up the road.
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Allowing for perspective, I think Jane was about 4 metres higher up the road.
What I see is two people coming back from the pool after a morning swim. The mark on the wall is IMO a reflection of the lady. It isn't a shadow as there is not enough light to form shadows.
If I'm right that it is a reflection off a relatively rough surface, then the angle of incidence = angle of reflection. Then if we can work out where the person who took photo was standing then because the "image" appears to be on a line directly below end of the wall of the apartment we could make the calculations of where they are standing in the photo.
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What I see is two people coming back from the pool after a morning swim. The mark on the wall is IMO a reflection of the lady. It isn't a shadow as there is not enough light to form shadows.
If I'm right that it is a reflection off a relatively rough surface, then the angle of incidence = angle of reflection. Then if we can work out where the person who took photo was standing then because the "image" appears to be on a line directly below end of the wall of the apartment we could make the calculations of where they are standing in the photo.
They are just past where 5A wall finishes its projection into the footpath. Measure that on Google Earth and you will find that it measures over 10 metres from the route going eastwards along the pavement.
Try not to forget that the end of the wall on that image is not at the pavement from which Tannerman appeared, because the wall has a great big curve on it, and the end is well out of sight around the bend. From measuring GE it appears thaty the bend is about 3 metres radius.
From Janes memory of it, Tannerman walked straight across the top of Rua Francisco Gentil Martins. He didn't come around the curve of the wall at all.
Thinking more about it, if Jane identified 5 metres distance between her and the man, then those two people are way lower down the road than Jane was when she saw Tannerman. I think that she would have been about 5-6 metres higher than that couple.
I do understand why the one side of the discussion is trying to persuade readers that Jane was lower down the road than it appears she was. It is an attempt, it seems, to re-inforce their argument that Janes Tannerman was not actually an abductor, but was Crecheman.
*%6^ I wonder why?
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They are just past where 5A wall finishes its projection into the footpath. Measure that on Google Earth and you will find that it measuresc 10 metres from the route going eastwards along the pavement.
Try not to forget that the end of the wall on that image is not at the pavement from which Tannerman appeared, because the wall has a great big curve on it, and the end is well out of sight around the bend. From measuring GE it appears thaty the bend is about 3 metres radius.
From Janes memory of it, Tannerman walked straight across the top of Rua Francisco Gentil Martins. He didn't come around the curve of the wall at all.
Thinking more about it, if Jane identified 5 metres distance between her and the man, then those two people are way lower down the road than Jane was when she saw Tannerman. I think that she would have been about 5-6 metres higher than that couple.
I do understand why the one side of the discussion is trying to persuade readers that Jane was lower down the road than it appears she was. It is an attempt, it seems, to re-inforce their argument that Janes Tannerman was not actually an abductor, but was Crecheman.
*%6^ I wonder why?
I think it was Redwood who made the argument for Tanner’s sighting being Crecheman.
Perhaps you should ask him why ?
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They are just past where 5A wall finishes its projection into the footpath. Measure that on Google Earth and you will find that it measuresc 10 metres from the route going eastwards along the pavement.
Try not to forget that the end of the wall on that image is not at the pavement from which Tannerman appeared, because the wall has a great big curve on it, and the end is well out of sight around the bend. From measuring GE it appears thaty the bend is about 3 metres radius.
From Janes memory of it, Tannerman walked straight across the top of Rua Francisco Gentil Martins. He didn't come around the curve of the wall at all.
Thinking more about it, if Jane identified 5 metres distance between her and the man, then those two people are way lower down the road than Jane was when she saw Tannerman. I think that she would have been about 5-6 metres higher than that couple.
I do understand why the one side of the discussion is trying to persuade readers that Jane was lower down the road than it appears she was. It is an attempt, it seems, to re-inforce their argument that Janes Tannerman was not actually an abductor, but was Crecheman.
*%6^ I wonder why?
Why do you persist with the Tanner nonsense Sadie, DCI Redmond says it was an irrelevance?
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Why do you persist with the Tanner nonsense Sadie, DCI Redmond says it was an irrelevance?
The Tanner sighting produced a revelation moment for SY, so hardly an irrelevance. At no time did DCI Redwood say that Crecheman & Tannerman were the same person.
Why did Crecheman believe that he could be the Tanner sighting? Is it possible that someone else had put that very suggestion to him, told him not to say anything (or risk prosecution) & ensure that he kept those child's pyjamas in a safe place for possible use in a future prosecution case?
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The Tanner sighting produced a revelation moment for SY, so hardly an irrelevance. At no time did DCI Redwood say that Crecheman & Tannerman were the same person.
Why did Crecheman believe that he could be the Tanner sighting? Is it possible that someone else had put that very suggestion to him, told him not to say anything (or risk prosecution) & ensure that he kept those child's pyjamas in a safe place for possible use in a future prosecution case?
Was it just confidence then that two identical men, dressed identically and carrying identical girls clad in identical pj's just happened to walk in front of Tanner that night? I don't think so somehow!!
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The Tanner sighting produced a revelation moment for SY, so hardly an irrelevance. At no time did DCI Redwood say that Crecheman & Tannerman were the same person.
Why did Crecheman believe that he could be the Tanner sighting? Is it possible that someone else had put that very suggestion to him, told him not to say anything (or risk prosecution) & ensure that he kept those child's pyjamas in a safe place for possible use in a future prosecution case?
Very good thinking misty.
But those pyjamas that he showed looked altogether too big for a two year old, didn't you think so ?
To me they seemed like pjays for a 7 year old perhaps
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Was it just confidence then that two identical men, dressed identically and carrying identical girls clad in identical pj's just happened to walk in front of Tanner that night? I don't think so somehow!!
Crecheman is too tall to be Tannerman, his haircut was different & Tannerman's jacket was gathered in at the waist - notwithstanding that the man was heading in the opposite direction.
Question - why does Amaral show Tannerman walking in the opposite direction in O Enigma?
https://youtu.be/tUHp85TyJ0Y?t=1045
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Very good thinking misty.
But those pyjamas that he showed looked altogether too big for a two year old, didn't you think so ?
To me they seemed like pjays for a 7 year old perhaps
They look pretty small to me, judging by the sleeve length in the photo.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2460669/Madeleine-McCann-kidnapping-innocent-British-father-mistaken-key-suspect.html
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Crecheman is too tall to be Tannerman, his haircut was different & Tannerman's jacket was gathered in at the waist - notwithstanding that the man was heading in the opposite direction.
Question - why does Amaral show Tannerman walking in the opposite direction in O Enigma?
https://youtu.be/tUHp85TyJ0Y?t=1045
At https://youtu.be/tUHp85TyJ0Y?t=1131 there is a diagram of where JT was positioned. Positioned where and when. Where it is drawn on the diagram does not match with what hew says in the documentary. Until OG prove which way Crechman was walking I won't agree they are one and the same.
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One wonders if in all reality SY have now stalled.
Back in 2013 they identified 4 individuals which lead no where following the digs and subsequent questioning of the 4 plus another 11? was it and the end of 2014.
October 2015 the team was drastically cut to just 4 officers.
The HO have refused to reveal what funds they have allocated this time around.
The last update given 12 months ago from Rowley couldn't confirm if the girl was dead or alive.
We don't have evidence telling us if Madeleine is alive or dead.
Rowley April 25 2017.
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One wonders if in all reality SY have now stalled.
Back in 2013 they identified 4 individuals which lead no where following the digs and subsequent questioning of the 4 plus another 11? was it and the end of 2014.
October 2015 the team was drastically cut to just 4 officers.
The HO have refused to reveal what funds they have allocated this time around.
The last update given 12 months ago from Rowley couldn't confirm if the girl was dead or alive.
Rowley April 25 2017.
Perhaps those officers are dealing with ILOR's from the PJ? They are, after all, the ones who 'own' the case.
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Perhaps those officers are dealing with ILOR's from the PJ? They are, after all, the ones who 'own' the case.
If so, they must be dealing with an awful lot of paperwork.
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Perhaps those officers are dealing with ILOR's from the PJ? They are, after all, the ones who 'own' the case.
ILOR's are sent to the HO,maybe that's why they are funding it.
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ILOR's are sent to the HO,maybe that's why they are funding it.
Well the Portuguese had a team helping OG at one point, didn't they?
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Well the Portuguese had a team helping OG at one point, didn't they?
Fat lot of good the ilor's were too,it never advanced the case I believe reports said at the time.
4 yrs ago:
But a source close to the inquiry told the BBC the questioning had not unearthed any new useful information.
They said: “Questioning of the four suspects was concluded yesterday evening.
“Unfortunately the interviews have led to no new developments and we are back where we were seven years ago.”
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/10942089/Madeleine-McCann-suspects-questioning-leads-to-no-new-developments.html
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Fat lot of good the ilor's were too,it never advanced the case I believe reports said at the time.
4 yrs ago:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/10942089/Madeleine-McCann-suspects-questioning-leads-to-no-new-developments.html
Do you have a problem with establishing a database and following up on any red flags?
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Red flags or red herrings ?
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Had crecheman been interviewed before OG found him?
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Had crecheman been interviewed before OG found him?
How would we know ?
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Had crecheman been interviewed before OG found him?
There has been an implication that he filled in a statement for LP. Don’t know if we have seen a cite.
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What I see is two people coming back from the pool after a morning swim. The mark on the wall is IMO a reflection of the lady. It isn't a shadow as there is not enough light to form shadows.
If I'm right that it is a reflection off a relatively rough surface, then the angle of incidence = angle of reflection. Then if we can work out where the person who took photo was standing then because the "image" appears to be on a line directly below end of the wall of the apartment we could make the calculations of where they are standing in the photo.
I have enlarged the image by x 300 and IMO, the blue thing that is being carried is an inflatable swimming ring.
The couple were just past the apartment and about a metre past the front door on this image, so they were about 10 metres back from the crossing that Jane remembers Tannerman making.
She and the officer together estimated that she was about 5 metres from Tannerman when she first saw him, so I am ammending my position of Jane relative to these two people as more than 5 metres farther up the road than they are.
Please do not forget that Jane remembered him crossing the road and carrying straight on + the wall has a large curve in it at the top, meaning that the top 3 metres of wall is not visible on that photo. The place that Tannerman walked across has to be worked out as accuaretly as posible using GE.
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They look pretty small to me, judging by the sleeve length in the photo.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2460669/Madeleine-McCann-kidnapping-innocent-British-father-mistaken-key-suspect.html
I am sorry misty but I dont think those are toddlers Pjays. They are too long relative to their width IMO.
Guess we will have to agree to differ on that one.
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Topic please... *&(+(+