UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: faithlilly on May 28, 2018, 09:05:11 AM
-
I have always wondered why the CPS travelled to Portugal in 2013. AFAIAA there has been no British suspects questioned by the PJ so why were the CPS involved ?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10135847/CPS-lawyers-travel-to-Portugal-to-explore-Madeleine-McCann-leads.html
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/fresh-hope-in-madeleine-mccann-inquiry-as-cps-lawyers-travel-to-portugal-8668335.html
Your thoughts ?
14
-
All discussed at great length before
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4331.0
-
All discussed at great length before
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4331.0
Always worth an update though, should there be one. As one poster noted way back then ... "But a clue is that UK police do not issue ILORs relating to any need to interview UK citizens who are based and currently living in the UK. In case you hadn't noticed they just get in a car, drive to the person's place of work or home and ask them for an interview. Very simple indeed." http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4331.msg156752#msg156752
That helped to sum it up then ... but I think the clincher came from another who said "There is no room for faith in a criminal investigation."
-
I have always wondered why the CPS travelled to Portugal in 2013. AFAIAA there has been no British suspects questioned by the PJ so why were the CPS involved ?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10135847/CPS-lawyers-travel-to-Portugal-to-explore-Madeleine-McCann-leads.html
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/fresh-hope-in-madeleine-mccann-inquiry-as-cps-lawyers-travel-to-portugal-8668335.html
Your thoughts ?
How about establishing a common framework that would encompass the UK concept of "questioning under caution" with the PT system of "arguidos"? Particularly in light of the stop-clock that starts rolling in PT?
The Penal Procedure Code on arguidoship and the circumstances that set the clock ticking keep changing, but it would have been a concern worthy of discussion, I would have thought.
-
How about establishing a common framework that would encompass the UK concept of "questioning under caution" with the PT system of "arguidos"? Particularly in light of the stop-clock that starts rolling in PT?
The Penal Procedure Code on arguidoship and the circumstances that set the clock ticking keep changing, but it would have been a concern worthy of discussion, I would have thought.
Once the Portuguese investigation was reopened they were in charge. The English prosecutors and police needed to understand how the Portuguese system worked, otherwise their help wouldn't have been useful. They were probably informed what they could and couldn't do and how. I suspect that Judicial secrecy was discussed also.
-
Does anyone actually think that the CPS’s visit to Portugal was anything to do with the Tapas group themselves?
-
Once the Portuguese investigation was reopened they were in charge. The English prosecutors and police needed to understand how the Portuguese system worked, otherwise their help wouldn't have been useful. They were probably informed what they could and couldn't do and how. I suspect that Judicial secrecy was discussed also.
That's probably the sum of it,if ever something gets to court and it was found that evidence given was obtained out side of set parameters the defence would soon pounce imo.
-
That's probably the sum of it,if ever something gets to court and it was found that evidence given was obtained out side of set parameters the defence would soon pounce imo.
OG were planning to move from a review to an investigation. They had identified 38 persons of interest from five European countries, including Portugal and the UK. The only ones they could interview were the UK nationals, I assume, so they needed the cooperation and help of the other countries; particularly Portugal where the crime was committed.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23179230
-
OG were planning to move from a review to an investigation. They had identified 38 persons of interest from five European countries, including Portugal and the UK. The only ones they could interview were the UK nationals, I assume, so they needed the cooperation and help of the other countries; particularly Portugal where the crime was committed.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23179230
Cooperation would seem a rarity.
-
Cooperation would seem a rarity.
It would seem unreasonable for one country to be expected to change aspects of its legal system just to accommodate another country.
-
That's probably the sum of it,if ever something gets to court and it was found that evidence given was obtained out side of set parameters the defence would soon pounce imo.
I am certain that more learned and informed individuals than we are have already given different procedures some thought bearing in mind that, for example, the British legal system is adversarial while in Portugal the system is inquisitorial.
Also I do not believe that Portuguese law enforcement officers would be allowed free rein to make fundamental errors in England ... nor that English law enforcement would be allowed to do that in Portugal.
The system to circumvent anyone overstepping any parameters is already in place and has been used without conflict.
-
I'm sure it would have been posted before but seeing as its a new thread.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/
The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) prosecutes criminal cases that have been investigated by the police and other investigative organisations in England and Wales. The CPS is independent, and we make our decisions independently of the police and government.
So back to the op,why would the CPS be in Portugal the site specifically says in England and Wales.
-
I am certain that more learned and informed individuals than we are have already given different procedures some thought bearing in mind that, for example, the British legal system is adversarial while in Portugal the system is inquisitorial.
Also I do not believe that Portuguese law enforcement officers would be allowed free rein to make fundamental errors in England ... nor that English law enforcement would be allowed to do that in Portugal.
The system to circumvent anyone overstepping any parameters is already in place and has been used without conflict.
I'm sure you can provide cites to back that up.
-
I'm sure it would have been posted before but seeing as its a new thread.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/
So back to the op,why would the CPS be in Portugal the site specifically says in England and Wales.
Have you read the other thread on the subject?
-
I have always wondered why the CPS travelled to Portugal in 2013. AFAIAA there has been no British suspects questioned by the PJ so why were the CPS involved ?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10135847/CPS-lawyers-travel-to-Portugal-to-explore-Madeleine-McCann-leads.html
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/fresh-hope-in-madeleine-mccann-inquiry-as-cps-lawyers-travel-to-portugal-8668335.html
Your thoughts ?
A sun kissed jolly at tax payers expense or failing that, a meeting with their sardine munching counterparts on the best way forward just in case some unfortunate lowlife is ever identified as being the culprit in the most documented disappearance ever in modern time.
-
Have you read the other thread on the subject?
A load of opinion by posters who no longer do ...
-
A load of opinion by posters who no longer do ...
Delete the whole thread then, seeing as it has no worth.
-
No doubt completely irrelevant just like all my contributions to this forum, but you never know, one day I might strike it lucky:
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/jurisdiction
-
No doubt completely irrelevant just like all my contributions to this forum, but you never know, one day I might strike it lucky:
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/jurisdiction
I cannot see how the UK could have any jurisdiction over this case as the crime, assuming there is one and she didn't fall into a hole and was buried over as some have previously suggested, was committed in Portuguese territory.
However, a case for proceedings being conducted in the UK could be made if it was found that those involved were all British and it didn't involve any Portuguese nationals.
It must never be forgotten however that the criminal activity which occurred post Maddie's disappearance involved not only British citizens but Irish, Portuguese and Spanish nationals too.
-
I'm sure you can provide cites to back that up.
Of course I can. Please tell me why you require cites for what is common knowledge?
-
Delete the whole thread then, seeing as it has no worth.
Doesn’t work like that, removing old posts that contravene current interpretation of the rules would be a full time job and expecting to use them as cites fraught with difficulties.
-
It would seem unreasonable for one country to be expected to change aspects of its legal system just to accommodate another country.
As changes to UK laws involve acts of parliament ................... extend to logical conclusion ?{)(**
-
I'm sure it would have been posted before but seeing as its a new thread.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/
So back to the op,why would the CPS be in Portugal the site specifically says in England and Wales.
Given that the whole MLA / ILOR set up extends beyond pettyfogging internet wars between opposing factions with a very narrow focus, lifting ones eyes to the horizon might help... 8(0(*
The CPS submit ILORs in accordance with a set of rules. One is that an ILOR cannot be a fishing expedition much as the cops and others might wish it were.
Another rule is that if what is is being requested is without the laws of the country from which it is being requested then that country may legitimately bounce the request.
-
Given that the whole MLA / ILOR set up extends beyond pettyfogging internet wars between opposing factions with a very narrow focus, lifting ones eyes to the horizon might help... 8(0(*
The CPS submit ILORs in accordance with a set of rules. One is that an ILOR cannot be a fishing expedition much as the cops and others might wish it were.
Another rule is that if what is is being requested is without the laws of the country from which it is being requested then that country may legitimately bounce the request.
Information requested must be necessary and proportional too, which is why the Home Office refused one of the Portuguese requests;
As you know, in considering requests for coercive measures the Secretary of State must consider necessity and proportionality. On the basis of the information before me, the request for evidence relating to Mr McCann's Mastercard accounts for a 6 month period or, at least in the first instance, refine your request to a period immediately prior to and following the day of the alleged sighting, I would be more than happy to look at this part of the request again.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FRANCES_KENNAH.htm
-
It would seem unreasonable for one country to be expected to change aspects of its legal system just to accommodate another country.
oh but surely they could have changed a smidgen for those poor parents, I mean just a couple of things...
-
In Portugal the Directorate-General of Justice Administration, part of the Ministry of Justice, deals with ILOR's.
https://www.hcch.net/en/states/authorities/details3/?aid=514
-
Given that the whole MLA / ILOR set up extends beyond pettyfogging internet wars between opposing factions with a very narrow focus, lifting ones eyes to the horizon might help... 8(0(*
The CPS submit ILORs in accordance with a set of rules. One is that an ILOR cannot be a fishing expedition much as the cops and others might wish it were.
Another rule is that if what is is being requested is without the laws of the country from which it is being requested then that country may legitimately bounce the request.
I have no problem with that, but I'm only popping in and I'm not sure what the argument is about...
-
Information requested must be necessary and proportional too, which is why the Home Office refused one of the Portuguese requests;
As you know, in considering requests for coercive measures the Secretary of State must consider necessity and proportionality. On the basis of the information before me, the request for evidence relating to Mr McCann's Mastercard accounts for a 6 month period or, at least in the first instance, refine your request to a period immediately prior to and following the day of the alleged sighting, I would be more than happy to look at this part of the request again.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FRANCES_KENNAH.htm
I find that fair enough. There was an oppotunity to justify that request, but AFAIK, it got dropped.