UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Robittybob1 on August 16, 2018, 06:28:29 AM
-
When Eddie alerted in the corner of the bedroom Martin Grime gives us an explanation of what he thinks is happening. Personally I have had an interest in physics and in gas stratification all my life and I had doubts that Martin got the physics right.
What did he actually say: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
"Apartment 5 A
Ok what was done was we deployed the victim recovery dog into the apartment and by experience and the training of the dog what I first noticed is that as soon as I came in that the dog was very excited and as a handler I can pick up his body language etc and it would appear to me that as soon as he has come into the house he's picked up a scent that he recognises and he has then gone through the apartment trying to source where that scent source has come from and as he has worked through the house the only two places where he picks up enough scent to give me the bark alert are in this bedroom, in this corner where he was barking.
What we have to be able to understand in a situation such as this is in a hot climate with the apartment being closed down, the scent will build up in a particular area. If there isn't a scent source in here, i.e. a physical article where the scent is emitting from, any scent residue will collect in a particular place due to the air movement of the flat, the apartment and what I would say in this case is that there is enough scent in that area there for him to give me a bark indication but the source may not be in that cupboard, the source may well be in this room somewhere else but the air is actually pushing into that corner. But strong indication and I would say its positive for things that he is trained to find, which will be part of a separate debrief."
I have no issue with what he says in the first paragraph as he is basically describing his dog's behaviour and who would be better to know to that than him? No one TBH.
The last sentence of the next paragraph is his judgement and based on his experience I wouldn't question it.
But why did he attempt to give us a physics lesson in the second quoted paragraph?
"What we have to be able to understand in a situation such as this is in a hot climate with the apartment being closed down, the scent will build up in a particular area. If there isn't a scent source in here, i.e. a physical article where the scent is emitting from, any scent residue will collect in a particular place due to the air movement of the flat, the apartment and what I would say in this case is that there is enough scent in that area there for him to give me a bark indication but the source may not be in that cupboard, the source may well be in this room somewhere else but the air is actually pushing into that corner."
Are there any scientific experiments performed that back up what he thinks is happening?
It is also interesting that he too nominates the cupboard as the source in a fashion. "but the source may not be in that cupboard, the source may well be in this room somewhere else" on the provision he has his physics right!
Looking at the video there is a clear correlation between the 2nd or 3rd shelf of the cupboard and the alert being given immediately after sniffing the air in the cupboard compartment.
If the source was "somewhere else" would the maximum concentration of cadaver odour ever accumulate on the 3rd shelf of the cupboard?
I'll add the link to the video of Eddie doing a check in the main bedroom apartment 5A later.
https://youtu.be/3EH[Name removed]pXii9o?t=122 from the edited version. Unfortunately Martin walks in front of the camera at the critical moment.
-
As I have already posted... No
First the apartment wad not closed down but open and secondly the molecules in the air would move randomly ...many of them exiting the apartment over the preceding 3 months
-
As I have already posted... No
First the apartment wad not closed down but open and secondly the molecules in the air would move randomly ...many of them exiting the apartment over the preceding 3 months
Would there be any scientific reason why the molecules making up cadaver odour ever be pushed together? Entropy increases.
"entropy
noun
1.
PHYSICS
a thermodynamic quantity representing the unavailability of a system's thermal energy for conversion into mechanical work, often interpreted as the degree of disorder or randomness in the system.
"the second law of thermodynamics says that entropy always increases with time"" Google definition.
-
Would there be any scientific reason why the molecules making up cadaver odour ever be pushed together? Entropy increases.
"entropy
noun
1.
PHYSICS
a thermodynamic quantity representing the unavailability of a system's thermal energy for conversion into mechanical work, often interpreted as the degree of disorder or randomness in the system.
"the second law of thermodynamics says that entropy always increases with time"" Google definition.
From that definition.. No
Cadaver odour is an odour... And we, all know odours, disperse as long as there is ventilation
-
In answer to the thread title,no it was the dogs nose that detected something so the question should be did the dogs get the science wrong.
-
In answer to the thread title,no it was the dogs nose that detected something so the question should be did the dogs get the science wrong.
i dont believe they did
-
From that definition.. No
Cadaver odour is an odour... And we, all know odours, disperse as long as there is ventilation
That was my basic understanding too.
-
In answer to the thread title,no it was the dogs nose that detected something so the question should be did the dogs get the science wrong.
What with Gerry saying "ask the dogs" and you thinking the dogs are doing science it going to be an interesting thread.
I do think MG really appreciated the intelligence of his dogs. I might go through his report and list the ways he described how his dogs worked.
-
This article refers to a scientific study on gas stratification. a 2009 paper by Badino
http://chemdaq.blogspot.com/2012/09/gas-stratification-is-not-relevant-to.html
"Stratification is widely believed by many to occur in locations where there is little air movement; however a 2009 paper by Badino, which discusses stratification of air in caves, provides a very good mathematical analysis which goes a long way to answering the stratification question. His analysis shows that stratification does occur, but it requires a column of static air several kilometers high to have a major impact; and so stratification will not be relevant to most occupational safety gas monitoring applications.
Found the paper https://caves.org/pub/journal/PDF/v71/cave-71-01-100.pdf "THE LEGEND OF CARBON DIOXIDE HEAVINESS"
-
What with Gerry saying "ask the dogs" and you thinking the dogs are doing science it going to be an interesting thread.
I do think MG really appreciated the intelligence of his dogs. I might go through his report and list the ways he described how his dogs worked.
The dogs are intelligent enough to be trained to differentiate.
-
This article refers to a scientific study on gas stratification. a 2009 paper by Badino
http://chemdaq.blogspot.com/2012/09/gas-stratification-is-not-relevant-to.html
"Stratification is widely believed by many to occur in locations where there is little air movement; however a 2009 paper by Badino, which discusses stratification of air in caves, provides a very good mathematical analysis which goes a long way to answering the stratification question. His analysis shows that stratification does occur, but it requires a column of static air several kilometers high to have a major impact; and so stratification will not be relevant to most occupational safety gas monitoring applications.
Found the paper https://caves.org/pub/journal/PDF/v71/cave-71-01-100.pdf "THE LEGEND OF CARBON DIOXIDE HEAVINESS"
The article refers, to areas of little air movement... Grime refers, to a closed environment... Was he misinformed
The alert in the flower bed is certainly not a closed environment and is highly questionable IMO
-
The article refers, to areas of little air movement... Grime refers, to a closed environment... Was he misinformed
The alert in the flower bed is certainly not a closed environment and is highly questionable IMO
I don't get what you mean sorry.
-
The dogs are intelligent enough to be trained to differentiate.
That is what I mean something quite remarkable. Decision making is something he stresses about his dogs.
-
This article refers to a scientific study on gas stratification. a 2009 paper by Badino
http://chemdaq.blogspot.com/2012/09/gas-stratification-is-not-relevant-to.html
"Stratification is widely believed by many to occur in locations where there is little air movement; however a 2009 paper by Badino, which discusses stratification of air in caves, provides a very good mathematical analysis which goes a long way to answering the stratification question. His analysis shows that stratification does occur, but it requires a column of static air several kilometers high to have a major impact; and so stratification will not be relevant to most occupational safety gas monitoring applications.
Found the paper https://caves.org/pub/journal/PDF/v71/cave-71-01-100.pdf "THE LEGEND OF CARBON DIOXIDE HEAVINESS"
there was plenty of air movement in the flat
-
there was plenty of air movement in the flat
It was empty at the time of the inspection so it would have been closed until the PJ turned up I'd guess.
-
It was empty at the time of the inspection so it would have been closed until the PJ turned up I'd guess.
As far ad I know it had been let out
-
As far ad I know it had been let out
For short periods of time. over the last 3 months. May, June, July. I would wonder how much air flow had occurred during that time period.
-
For short periods of time. over the last 3 months. May, June, July. I would wonder how much air flow had occurred during that time period.
I can't belive remnant scent would last for 3 months in a flower bed... Open to all the elements.... As, grime seems to think
-
For short periods of time. over the last 3 months. May, June, July. I would wonder how much air flow had occurred during that time period.
It does show grime was wrong to consider it a closed environment
-
I can't belive remnant scent would last for 3 months in a flowe bed... Open to al the elements.... As, grime seems to think
I'd have to refresh as to what he did say, but it definitely wasn't a strong signal IIRC.
in his report this is all he says about that:
"The EVRD alerted in the:
Rear bedroom of the apartment in the immediate right hand corner by
the door.
Living room, behind sofa.
Veranda outside parent's bedroom.
Garden area directly under veranda." So that is 4 alerts at 5A according to this.
-
I'd have to refresh as to what he did say, but it definitely wasn't a strong signal IIRC.
in his report this is all he says about that:
"The EVRD alerted in the:
Rear bedroom of the apartment in the immediate right hand corner by
the door.
Living room, behind sofa.
Veranda outside parent's bedroom.
Garden area directly under veranda." So that is 4 alerts at 5A according to this.
Grime says there's no differentiation between a strong or weak alert
-
Grime says there's no differentiation between a strong or weak alert
I'd be surprised. "But strong indication and I would say its positive for things that he is trained to find, which will be part of a separate debrief."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
Where was the cite about "no differentiation between a strong or weak alert"?
also in his rogatory interview he said: "EVRD gives an alert by means of a vocal bark. The variations in the vocal alert can be explained by many reasons such as 'thirst' or 'lack of air due to effort'. Every alert can be subject to interpretation, it has to be confirmed. "
-
I'd be surprised. "But strong indication and I would say its positive for things that he is trained to find, which will be part of a separate debrief."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
Where was the cite about "no differentiation between a strong or weak alert"?
also in his rogatory interview he said: "EVRD gives an alert by means of a vocal bark. The variations in the vocal alert can be explained by many reasons such as 'thirst' or 'lack of air due to effort'. Every alert can be subject to interpretation, it has to be confirmed. "
'Based upon the dogs' behaviour, is it possible to distinguish between a strong signal and a weak signal'.
The dogs' passive CSI alert provides an indication as per their training and does not vary
-
'Based upon the dogs' behaviour, is it possible to distinguish between a strong signal and a weak signal'.
The dogs' passive CSI alert provides an indication as per their training and does not vary
I read that too but he is describing Keela there not Eddie. Keels is the CSI dog.
-
I read that too but he is describing Keela there not Eddie. Keels is the CSI dog.
The position of the apostrophe would say he's talking about both dogs
-
The position of the apostrophe would say he's talking about both dogs
I don't agree as only Keela is the CSI dog. and only Keela gives a passive alert.