Pathologist passing on samples.

[Holly Goodhead]

The autopsy report and other reports list the following officers in attendance at PM:

DI Cook
DI Miller
DS Davidson
DC Bird
DC Hammersley
PC Wright

During PM various samples, blood, bullets etc, were handed to officers as per the following list:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=204.msg2228#msg2228

However Dr Vanezis' trial testimony doesn't make this clear.  He implies the samples were passed direct to FSS.  Why did he not say I handed the samples to officers? 


10

[Caroline]

The autopsy report and other reports list the following officers in attendance at PM:

DI Cook
DI Miller
DS Davidson
DC Bird
DC Hammersley
PC Wright

During PM various samples, blood, bullets etc, were handed to officers as per the following list:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=204.msg2228#msg2228

However Dr Vanezis' trial testimony doesn't make this clear.  He implies the samples were passed direct to FSS.  Why did he not say I handed the samples to officers?

Where is that implied?

[Holly Goodhead]

Where is that implied?

In the trial testimony attached above.  A complete contrast to the actual statement of samples, also attached above, where he states he handed samples to police officers.

(Thanks Myster for turning the above right way round.  No idea how I managed that!).

[Caroline]

In the trial testimony attached above.  A complete contrast to the actual statement of samples, also attached above, where he states he handed samples to police officers.

(Thanks Myster for turning the above right way round.  No idea how I managed that!).

'Found their way' and 'passed on' doesn't imply he passed them to FSS, in fact it's in line with him passing on to someone who delivered them to FSS - which is what happened.

[Holly Goodhead]

'Found their way' and 'passed on' doesn't imply he passed them to FSS, in fact it's in line with him passing on to someone who delivered them to FSS - which is what happened.

The samples list dated 26th Nov '85 states:

"Further to my statement dated 30th September, 1985, with reference to the exhibits handed by myself to Detective Inspector Cook/Detective Sergeant Davidson, these were as follows:-

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=204.msg2228#msg2228

Dr Vanezis' trail testimony makes no reference of DI Cook or DS Davidson or any other officer/EP.  Instead he testified as follows:

Q: Now I think you took various samples and recovered various bullets is that right?

A: Yes indeed.

Q: Which you eventually passed on for the Forensic Scientists to look at?

A: Well I took samples on the day of the examination, and they were passed on at that time.

Q: Yes, I think you have numbered those thoroughly.

A: Yes, PV/1 to PV/36.  That is correct.

Q: And the defence have been given a copy of the list, and I think it is agreed between them, and the list can be no doubt produced and that all those eventually found their way to the various Forensic Scientists who looked at the various matters.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8258.0;attach=9162

-----------------------------------------------------

Given the fact we know for sure all samples were handed to police officers during PM including blood samples which then went on to be stored in the soc fridge at Chelmsford why not make this clear?  If I was a member of the jury I would have understood the samples went from Dr Vanezis direct to FSS not via EP. 

[Caroline]

The samples list dated 26th Nov '85 states:

"Further to my statement dated 30th September, 1985, with reference to the exhibits handed by myself to Detective Inspector Cook/Detective Sergeant Davidson, these were as follows:-

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=204.msg2228#msg2228

Dr Vanezis' trail testimony makes no reference of DI Cook or DS Davidson or any other officer/EP.  Instead he testified as follows:

Q: Now I think you took various samples and recovered various bullets is that right?

A: Yes indeed.

Q: Which you eventually passed on for the Forensic Scientists to look at?

A: Well I took samples on the day of the examination, and they were passed on at that time.

Q: Yes, I think you have numbered those thoroughly.

A: Yes, PV/1 to PV/36.  That is correct.

Q: And the defence have been given a copy of the list, and I think it is agreed between them, and the list can be no doubt produced and that all those eventually found their way to the various Forensic Scientists who looked at the various matters.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8258.0;attach=9162

-----------------------------------------------------

Given the fact we know for sure all samples were handed to police officers during PM including blood samples which then went on to be stored in the soc fridge at Chelmsford why not make this clear?  If I was a member of the jury I would have understood the samples went from Dr Vanezis direct to FSS not via EP.

If I were a member of the jury, I wouldn't have assumed that from the words 'passed on at the time'. Also, the

[Holly Goodhead]

If I were a member of the jury, I wouldn't have assumed that from the words 'passed on at the time'. Also, the

Also, the...?

Why the inconsistency?  Why not state I handed the samples to DI Cook and DS Davidson? 

Dr Vanezis handed over 36 samples including bullets, stomach contents, urine, blood and liver samples.  He had no idea when these items were subsequently handed over to FSS.

I don't understand why the samples were not forwarded direct to FSS.  What would EP want with them?  It is not like they had the capability to perform any premliminary tests.

I wonder how secure the soc frige was?  I wouldn't mind betting it was the same fridge officers stored their lunch boxes in!

All of this formed part of COLP investigation. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=178.0;attach=453

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=178.0;attach=455

I haven't seen a list for the victims' nightwear and SC's jewellery which were clearly removed at PM.

[Caroline]

Also, the...?

Why the inconsistency?  Why not state I handed the samples to DI Cook and DS Davidson? 

Dr Vanezis handed over 36 samples including bullets, stomach contents, urine, blood and liver samples.  He had no idea when these items were subsequently handed over to FSS.

I don't understand why the samples were not forwarded direct to FSS.  What would EP want with them?  It is not like they had the capability to perform any premliminary tests.

I wonder how secure the soc frige was?  I wouldn't mind betting it was the same fridge officers stored their lunch boxes in!

All of this formed part of COLP investigation. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=178.0;attach=453

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=178.0;attach=455

I haven't seen a list for the victims' nightwear and SC's jewellery which were clearly removed at PM.

You can ask that in hindsight but I don't think he was being inconsistent. He didn't ever say he handed the items to FSS.

Why would they need to remove her jewellery? The undertaker ended up with it and gave it to the solicitor, who intern gave it to Colin. 

[Holly Goodhead]

You can ask that in hindsight but I don't think he was being inconsistent. He didn't ever say he handed the items to FSS.

Dr Vanezis' trial testimony:

Q: Which you eventually passed on for the Forensic Scientists to look at?

A: Well I took samples on the day of the examination, and they were passed on at that time.

To my mind the above implies Dr Vanezis passed the samples to FSS on the day of examination.  When in fact he passed the samples to DI Cook and DS Davidson and they were then stored in the soc fridge until they were transferred to FSS so I don't really understand why he doesn't make this clear.   

Why would they need to remove her jewellery? The undertaker ended up with it and gave it to the solicitor, who intern gave it to Colin.

I think it's the norm for jewellery, watches etc to be removed?  I guess they may be capable of yielding forensic clues in some cases.  I'm not sure why CC would end up with SC's jewellery, watch etc?  They had been divorced for some 3 years.  JB was her next of kin.  In any event we know the victims' nightwear was sent to FSS but I haven't seen a samples list for these.  Maybe the above list covered exhibits removed from within the victims and there's another list elsewhere. 

[Caroline]

Dr Vanezis' trial testimony:

Q: Which you eventually passed on for the Forensic Scientists to look at?

A: Well I took samples on the day of the examination, and they were passed on at that time.

To my mind the above implies Dr Vanezis passed the samples to FSS on the day of examination.  When in fact he passed the samples to DI Cook and DS Davidson and they were then stored in the soc fridge until they were transferred to FSS so I don't really understand why he doesn't make this clear.   

I think it's the norm for jewellery, watches etc to be removed?  I guess they may be capable of yielding forensic clues in some cases.  I'm not sure why CC would end up with SC's jewellery, watch etc?  They had been divorced for some 3 years.  JB was her next of kin.  In any event we know the victims' nightwear was sent to FSS but I haven't seen a samples list for these.  Maybe the above list covered exhibits removed from within the victims and there's another list elsewhere.

That's just YOUR interpretation Holly and certainly isn't mine.

I guess because he asked for it.

We don't have ALL of the documentation from the case - just because it isn't on a forum, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[Holly Goodhead]

That's just YOUR interpretation Holly and certainly isn't mine.

I guess because he asked for it.

We don't have ALL of the documentation from the case - just because it isn't on a forum, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I guess our interpretations are not really that important in the grand scheme of things!  Even if jurors were aware that victims' biological samples went from Dr Vanezis to FSS via EP I very much doubt in 1986 many would consider contamination. Jurors would not have benefitted from all the information we have access to as they were told at court:

Q: Which you eventually passed on for the Forensic Scientists to look at?

A: Well I took samples on the day of the examination, and they were passed on at that time.

The above could be interpreted that the biological samples went from Dr Vanezis direct to FSS.  We know this is not the case as on 30th September 1985 Dr Vanezis produced a statement confirming he handed the samples to DI Cook and DS Davidson.  We know the samples then went in the soc fridge as it formed part of the COLP investigation. 

What procedures were in place at that time over the handling of biological samples?  I wonder what was stated in the police training manual?

Dr Vanezis Witness Statement Dated 30th Sept 1985 Deatailing Victims Biological Samples Handed to EP

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=204.msg2228#msg2228

COLP Investigation Re Handling Of Victims' Biological Samples (From Page 10)

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=178.msg1788#msg1788