Author Topic: How long does cadaver scent last?  (Read 14110 times)

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Offline Robittybob1

Re: How long does cadaver scent last?
« Reply #75 on: June 12, 2018, 09:59:23 PM »
I think so too, Robitty.
They were shown the dog videos, which is fine.  They were not shown the results of the FSS tests, which is not fine.
Would that be the dog videos in full or just the edited version of the important bits?  I'd fall asleep if I had to watch the entire hour and a half video.
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John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: How long does cadaver scent last?
« Reply #76 on: June 12, 2018, 10:19:09 PM »
I wonder how they knew he was waving Grime's report?
Maybe he asked them what they were flapping in his face, or they told him?
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Robittybob1

Re: How long does cadaver scent last?
« Reply #77 on: June 12, 2018, 10:37:27 PM »
Maybe he asked them what they were flapping in his face, or they told him?
Seems logical.
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Brietta

Re: How long does cadaver scent last?
« Reply #78 on: June 13, 2018, 12:34:06 AM »
Would that be the dog videos in full or just the edited version of the important bits?  I'd fall asleep if I had to watch the entire hour and a half video.
I think it was the 'edited' highlights.  Kate describes Paiva as pausing the video when a dog 'alerted' but not fast forwarding it.  I think the PJ were truly convinced by the videos to the extent it blinded them to what Martin Grime said about the requirement for the intelligence provided by the dogs to be backed up by forensic evidence.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pathfinder73

Re: How long does cadaver scent last?
« Reply #79 on: June 13, 2018, 01:07:00 AM »
Eddie alerted many months after in Parker (garage), Prout (living room) and Harron (bedroom) cases to name a few so it's not unusual to the police for this to happen again. Eddie was not brought into missing person cases until later.

"The E.V.R.D. alerted in the front bedroom of the offenders empty next door dwelling house. When interviewed the suspect admitted that the body had lain in the room for 1 hour prior to disposal."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Brietta

Re: How long does cadaver scent last?
« Reply #80 on: June 13, 2018, 02:48:15 AM »
Eddie alerted many months after in Parker (garage), Prout (living room) and Harron (bedroom) cases to name a few so it's not unusual to the police for this to happen again. Eddie was not brought into missing person cases until later.

"The E.V.R.D. alerted in the front bedroom of the offenders empty next door dwelling house. When interviewed the suspect admitted that the body had lain in the room for 1 hour prior to disposal."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

The really compelling evidence in the three cases you mention was the discovery of human remains.

In two of the cases ... Prout and Parker ... there had been sufficient evidence to enable murder trials to take place and the perpetrators of the crimes to be found guilty on the strength of it.
Both were serving their sentence before their wives remains were found.

In the case of Mrs Harron's horrific murder there was no guess work about the areas appropriate for the dogs' inspection.  There was plenty of evidence exactly where to point them ... and in the places alerted to, the alerts were backed up with strong forensic evidence.
In my opinion Mrs Harron's death must have been a blood bath making the key fob scenario in Luz risible were it not so tragic.

Categorically there is absolutely nothing which is of the remotest similarity between these three cases you have quoted and Madeleine McCann's disappearance in Luz.

The forensic testing as a result of places of interest shown by the dogs in Luz has shown there is no evidence which backs up the slightest connection to Madeleine McCann.  Nor is there even circumstantial evidence pointing to her death.

Stuff and nonsense in my opinion to keep labouring a point which just does not exist and never has.


Snip
On February 20, 2004, police employed the use of the Victim Recovery Unit dogs from England, which were highly trained to detect and alert handlers to the presence of human remains. A video without sound was shown in the court showing a Springer Spaniel dog examining two cars and a small van before being taken to the Lantra that had been driven by Hamilton and subsequently burned out, allegedly maliciously.

The video clearly showed the spaniel examining the other vehicles without reacting, and as soon as it entered the Lantra it began barking and refused to get out. Its search of the vehicle focused on the front passenger and rear seats.

Further forensic examination was carried out in the rear and passenger compartments of the vehicle and blood was detected from material taken from the car for examination. A car mat from the rear of the car was also shown to contain blood, and because of that, the investigation focused on Hamilton, Mr Mooney said, which included a comprehensive search of the property at Concess Road and in particular the sites of fires in the garden.

Recovered from these were rosary beads, blue plasters, a religious text, a business card, red material and an AIB bank receipt, all of which Mr Mooney described and linked to Mrs Harron; the rosary beads were identical to a set owned by Mr Harron; the bank receipt came from a withdrawal of cash made when Mr and Mrs Harron were at a wedding anniversary function in the south of Ireland on September 5, 2003; the business card was from an architect involved in the design of the new library in Strabane who was friends with Mrs Harron; the plaster matched those exactly which were missing from a box of plasters Mrs Harron bought in Lidl and which bore the same batch number, and the religious text came from a book of devotions available during a special service at the Church of the Immaculate Conception at Barrack Street or from the local religious shop in Strabane.

All of this Mr Mooney said, when taken together, provided compelling evidence connecting Hamilton to the late Mrs Harron.
http://murderpedia.org/male.H/h/hamilton-trevor-william.htm

Snip
The car mat which was taken for examination also showed blood traces, and a DNA profile was made which matched that of Mrs Harron.

Mr Mooney said the chances of the blood not being Mrs Harron’s were a billion to one and for that reason any notion that it was not her blood in Hamilton’s car could be discounted.

“You cannot elimiate Mrs Harron as being the person who was the source of the blood on the mat,” he told the silent courtroom, adding: “The chance of another person being the source of the blood other than Attracta Harron is so minute it can be safely discounted”.
http://murderpedia.org/male.H/h/hamilton-trevor-william.htm
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: How long does cadaver scent last?
« Reply #81 on: June 13, 2018, 08:04:30 PM »
That is a miscarriage of justice.  From what I understand the PJ are supposed to show the accused  the evidence they had against the arguido.  I suppose waving the Grime report in front of Gerry is one interpretation of "showing him the evidence".

"When questioned by the police or other judicial authority in the preliminary stages of the procedure the arguido has the right to be informed about the facts he/she is being accused of".

Does anyone have a copy of what they were being accused of *? or indeed evidence the McCanns were not informed ?

* please not a press report. Either The Sun or it's Posh Cousin...
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline pathfinder73

Re: How long does cadaver scent last?
« Reply #82 on: June 13, 2018, 09:36:49 PM »
The really compelling evidence in the three cases you mention was the discovery of human remains.

In two of the cases ... Prout and Parker ... there had been sufficient evidence to enable murder trials to take place and the perpetrators of the crimes to be found guilty on the strength of it.
Both were serving their sentence before their wives remains were found.

In the case of Mrs Harron's horrific murder there was no guess work about the areas appropriate for the dogs' inspection.  There was plenty of evidence exactly where to point them ... and in the places alerted to, the alerts were backed up with strong forensic evidence.
In my opinion Mrs Harron's death must have been a blood bath making the key fob scenario in Luz risible were it not so tragic.

Categorically there is absolutely nothing which is of the remotest similarity between these three cases you have quoted and Madeleine McCann's disappearance in Luz.

The forensic testing as a result of places of interest shown by the dogs in Luz has shown there is no evidence which backs up the slightest connection to Madeleine McCann.  Nor is there even circumstantial evidence pointing to her death.

Stuff and nonsense in my opinion to keep labouring a point which just does not exist and never has.


Snip
On February 20, 2004, police employed the use of the Victim Recovery Unit dogs from England, which were highly trained to detect and alert handlers to the presence of human remains. A video without sound was shown in the court showing a Springer Spaniel dog examining two cars and a small van before being taken to the Lantra that had been driven by Hamilton and subsequently burned out, allegedly maliciously.

The video clearly showed the spaniel examining the other vehicles without reacting, and as soon as it entered the Lantra it began barking and refused to get out. Its search of the vehicle focused on the front passenger and rear seats.

Further forensic examination was carried out in the rear and passenger compartments of the vehicle and blood was detected from material taken from the car for examination. A car mat from the rear of the car was also shown to contain blood, and because of that, the investigation focused on Hamilton, Mr Mooney said, which included a comprehensive search of the property at Concess Road and in particular the sites of fires in the garden.

Recovered from these were rosary beads, blue plasters, a religious text, a business card, red material and an AIB bank receipt, all of which Mr Mooney described and linked to Mrs Harron; the rosary beads were identical to a set owned by Mr Harron; the bank receipt came from a withdrawal of cash made when Mr and Mrs Harron were at a wedding anniversary function in the south of Ireland on September 5, 2003; the business card was from an architect involved in the design of the new library in Strabane who was friends with Mrs Harron; the plaster matched those exactly which were missing from a box of plasters Mrs Harron bought in Lidl and which bore the same batch number, and the religious text came from a book of devotions available during a special service at the Church of the Immaculate Conception at Barrack Street or from the local religious shop in Strabane.

All of this Mr Mooney said, when taken together, provided compelling evidence connecting Hamilton to the late Mrs Harron.
http://murderpedia.org/male.H/h/hamilton-trevor-william.htm

Snip
The car mat which was taken for examination also showed blood traces, and a DNA profile was made which matched that of Mrs Harron.

Mr Mooney said the chances of the blood not being Mrs Harron’s were a billion to one and for that reason any notion that it was not her blood in Hamilton’s car could be discounted.

“You cannot elimiate Mrs Harron as being the person who was the source of the blood on the mat,” he told the silent courtroom, adding: “The chance of another person being the source of the blood other than Attracta Harron is so minute it can be safely discounted”.
http://murderpedia.org/male.H/h/hamilton-trevor-william.htm

I think the police should know who is reliable in this case regardless of forensics not that they would reveal it at this stage. Circumstantial evidence exists.

Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: How long does cadaver scent last?
« Reply #83 on: June 13, 2018, 11:21:27 PM »
"When questioned by the police or other judicial authority in the preliminary stages of the procedure the arguido has the right to be informed about the facts he/she is being accused of".

Does anyone have a copy of what they were being accused of *? or indeed evidence the McCanns were not informed ?

* please not a press report. Either The Sun or it's Posh Cousin...
Were they being accused of something?  Surely the facts surrounding that would be detailed in the PJ files associated with the arguido statements by the McCann as a guess.

Can they be made arguido without an accusation being made?
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline misty

Re: How long does cadaver scent last?
« Reply #84 on: June 14, 2018, 12:18:06 AM »
Were they being accused of something?  Surely the facts surrounding that would be detailed in the PJ files associated with the arguido statements by the McCann as a guess.

Can they be made arguido without an accusation being made?

This section shows that they were being accused of something untoward.....
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm
 
10_VOLUME_Xa_Page_2580
 GERALD PATRICK MCCANN ' STATEMENT AS AN ARGUIDO
(from DVD)

September 7/2007 16.05 to 20.50  at Portimao

When asked if he wished to reply to the facts which he is being imputed with, he replied:

Offline Brietta

Re: How long does cadaver scent last?
« Reply #85 on: June 14, 2018, 01:15:20 AM »
I think the police should know who is reliable in this case regardless of forensics not that they would reveal it at this stage. Circumstantial evidence exists.

It is a fallacy to insist circumstantial evidence from the first botched inquiry either exists or is relevant in today's terms.

Your dismissal of forensics is a bit of a mystery for me.  Forensics can affirm or discredit the policeman's gut reaction and once the gut reaction is discredited it is time to look for the evidence which will actually solve the case. In my opinion you are very wide of the mark in thinking the police ~ I presume you to mean from the first investigation ~ know diddly-squat about anything of substance and would find themselves in deep trouble if they have been sitting on evidence for eleven years.

The original police premise based on total misunderstanding of the significance of the canine is to my mind one of the tragedies of Madeleine's case and I disagree with you that even circumstantial evidence exists in Madeleine's case.

The three cases you chose to cite should really give you food for thought as to the canine role in an investigation; in Mrs Harron's tragic case in particular where their indications led to forensic evidence assisting the case for conviction of the perpetrator.

It was a totally different situation in Luz where the dog indications were not substantiated.  That is no fault of the dogs ... they are capable only of finding what exists and they found nothing pertaining to Madeleine.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....