Author Topic: Procedures around becoming an arguido.  (Read 7794 times)

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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Procedures around becoming an arguido.
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2018, 11:11:46 PM »
Just to take up where I left off:-


•   Any declaration that the arguido makes during the preliminary phases of the procedure has very limited evidentiary value.


do we take taht to mean that any statements made as witnesses have limited evidentary value...as i suggested a log...long ...time ago

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Procedures around becoming an arguido.
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2018, 11:14:28 PM »
so what is the difference between the two

Depends on whether the case is civil or criminal and what the investigating magistrate says.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Procedures around becoming an arguido.
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2018, 11:15:59 PM »
Depends on whether the case is civil or criminal and what the investigating magistrate says.

lets say its criminal...whats the diference..we know what rights an arguido has...what rights does a suspect have..the lack of response suggests you do not have a clue
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 11:26:45 PM by Davel »

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Procedures around becoming an arguido.
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2018, 11:39:52 PM »
lets say its criminal...whats the diference..we know what rights an arguido has...what rights does a suspect have..the lack of response suggests you do not have a clue

Maybe I don't, maybe I do, maybe I know a man who does.
Place your bets....or better yet give your version of what rights suspeitos have. It is farily well defined in the CCP and legal reference tomes; so we can compare.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline sadie

Re: Procedures around becoming an arguido.
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2018, 11:44:40 PM »
Tracked vehicles seem to be an advantage over the wheeled versions.

Ah, but if I am not mistaken, tracked vehicles still have a row of wheels, driving them, under each track.
So we still need the wheel !

Offline Carana

Re: Procedures around becoming an arguido.
« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2018, 12:00:05 AM »
If ever, we had a thread trying to work all this out... erm, nearly 4 years ago. lol

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5673.0

Offline barrier

Re: Procedures around becoming an arguido.
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2018, 08:14:49 AM »
If ever, we had a thread trying to work all this out... erm, nearly 4 years ago. lol

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5673.0


I suspect all things have been discussed at some time previous,there ain't no news and nor will there be until the next tranche is announced in pursuit of one last lead.imo,innit.
This is my own private domicile and I shall not be harassed, biatch:Jesse Pinkman Character.

Offline Eleanor

Re: Procedures around becoming an arguido.
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2018, 08:29:56 AM »

I suspect all things have been discussed at some time previous,there ain't no news and nor will there be until the next tranche is announced in pursuit of one last lead.imo,innit.

Deja Vu.  Don't you just love it.

Offline Carana

Re: Procedures around becoming an arguido.
« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2018, 08:39:50 AM »
This is from the version that came into force on 14 September, i.e, just AFTER the McCanns / Murat became arguidos, as I can't lay my hands on the earlier one for the moment. A bit annoying as I expect that some of the wording will have been modified to clarify any ambiguity between "suspicion" and "founded suspicion" as in the amendments of various articles mentioned earlier (including 58).

For the purposes of simply working out roughly what a "suspeito" is, it might be adequate.

From the legal definitions bit:
(e) A suspect means any person for whom there is an "indício" (indication) that he has committed or is preparing to commit a crime, or who participated in one or is preparing to participate in one.

CÓDIGO DE PROCESSO PENAL Lei 48/2007, de 29 de Agosto
Disposicões preliminares e gerais
Artigo 1.o
Definicões legais
Para efeitos do disposto no presente Código considera-se:

e) «Suspeito» toda a pessoa relativamente à qual existia indício de que cometeu ou se prepara para cometer um crime, ou que nele participou ou se prepara para participar;


It is mentioned concerning the recusal of a judge (which is irrelevant)

This is about when it is mandatory to confer arguido status and refers to when a suspect has been arrested according to the terms and for the purposes set out in articles 254-261 (the article below was modified as I posted earlier):

Artigo 58.o
Constituicão de arguido
(...)
c) Um suspeito for detido, nos termos e para os efeitos previstos nos artigos 254.o a 261.o;


This bit is about the judge being able to order the seizure of correspondence sent by or to a suspect
Artigo 179.o
Apreensão de correspondencia
1 — Sob pena de nulidade, o juiz pode autorizar ou ordenar, por despacho, a apreensão, mesmo nas estacões de correios e de telecomunicações, de cartas, encomendas, valores, telegramas ou qualquer outra correspondência, quando tiver fundadas razões para crer que:
a) A correspondencia foi expedida pelo suspeito ou lhe é dirigida, mesmo que sob nome diverso ou através de pessoa diversa;


Further down in that same article, it states that it is forbidden to seize or otherwise intercept correspondence between an arguido and his/her defence lawyer, except when the judge has a founded suspicicion that it is the object or an element of a crime:

2 — É proibida, sob pena de nulidade, a apreensão e qualquer outra forma de controlo da correspondência entre o arguido e o seu defensor, salvo se o juiz tiver fundadas razões para crer que aquela constitui objecto ou elemento de um crime.

Mentioned here re phone tapping of a suspect or arguido:

CAPÍTULO IV
Das escutas telefónicas
Artigo 187.o
Admissibilidade
(...)
4 — A intercepcão e a gravacão previstas nos números anteriores só podem ser autorizadas, independentemente da titularidade do meio de comunicacão utilizado, contra:
a) Suspeito ou arguido;
b) Pessoa que sirva de intermediário, relativamente à qual haja fundadas razões para crer que recebe ou transmite mensagens destinadas ou provenientes de suspeito ou arguido;

There is a long article Artigo 250.o which is when law enforcement officers can request someone to show ID.
251 is about the kinds of inspections and searches that can be carried out without a warrant (frisking, etc). House searches require a warrant.


Offline Carana

Re: Procedures around becoming an arguido.
« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2018, 08:44:38 AM »

I suspect all things have been discussed at some time previous,there ain't no news and nor will there be until the next tranche is announced in pursuit of one last lead.imo,innit.

Yeah, feels like Groundhog Day sometimes. lol

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Procedures around becoming an arguido.
« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2018, 12:16:19 PM »
This reporter details some of the restraints on the McCanns following the declaration of their arguido status. https://youtu.be/VGsbPZtUue4?t=189
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Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Procedures around becoming an arguido.
« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2018, 03:36:00 PM »
do we take taht to mean that any statements made as witnesses have limited evidentary value...as i suggested a log...long ...time ago

It depends how you are defining "as witnesses". So the response could be yes or no and still be correct.
I suggest you read the whole of the Portuguese processes as applicable to this case. You will then be better informed if none the wiser.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey