Sunny's request for cites

[G-Unit]

Certainly not at the same time as his remains might have been there.

Well, Granny could have brought them with her, but there's no evidence he ever lived there.

[Robittybob1]

What do you think was  the reason for the alert to cuddle cat

Was it he loves playing with toys?

[Brietta]

Did you see the post where Eddie barked near a tree, but someone claimed there had been ashes scattered there so that alert had to be discounted.  It could not be proved whether Eddie alerted to the ashes or not.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10278.msg496924#msg496924

Snip
Recently, Eddie won fame in a new police case where he detected the presence of human remains in a former orphanage on the Island of Jersey. The dog pointed out six places, inside the building, that the police set about checking. Thanks to the use of the dog, the mortal remains of a child's body were found, in one of these places, under a slab of cement of a thickness of around 10 centimetres.
http://fromybigdesk.blogspot.com/2008/07/

[sadie]

A bit of Moorcroft would look better and show a bit more class!

I love Moorcroft, or Clarice Cliff.  The only problem with them, is that they are pottery and easily breakable.  Not so good to have a mix of pottery and your hubbies ashes spilt all over the place.


Brietta ashes urn would be a much more sensible and durable solution IMO

[sadie]

A couple of ideas here
You may choose to bury the ashes in a cremation plot or simply a regular plot. There may not be any additional cost if you choose to bury or entomb the remains in the burial plot of another family member.
 

Holding the remains in a cremation memorial in the form of a cremation bench, memorial rock, or grave marker with an integrated repository is another popular idea. These memorials can be placed in a cemetery.

Yep, but she was a widow abroad ... and it seems likely that she would have gained comfort from having what reamined of her hubby close to her in bed.   Likewise the pjays that he died in  (washed but with the residual very slight odour of cadavarine) might well have been on the bedside table, where she could touch them and gain comfort from them.


How else do you, or your side, account for the smell of cadavarine being up the wall ?



Another thought is that Keela being a smaller placid dog, may not have been close enough to smell a blood spot up there, whilst the bigger, younger bouncy Eddies nostrils came closer.   In that case the scent could have been from a spot of dessicatd blood on the wall from a living person.

Or it could posibly have been from cooked pork


We just don't know and without any forensic evidence it is, imo, foolhardy and unjust to make suggestions that the alert was to Madeleines cadavar odour.


As I said before, JUST HOW COULD MADELEINES DEAD BODY ODOUR HAVE GOT SO HIGH UP THAT WALL?

Any suggestions?

[Robittybob1]

Sadie - what makes you think Eddie alerted to something up the wall? 
We are talking about the alert that happened in the main bedroom aren't we?
You are still talking about cooked pork.  The dogs were trained not to alert to food. 
The video I saw Eddie was sniffing the wardrobe and the moment the camera operator goes behind Martin Grime Eddie starts barking so it is unsure where he last sniffed but the decision to bark isn't immediate the dog has to think about it first.  So IMO he was alerting to the wardrobe.

[sadie]

Sadie - what makes you think Eddie alerted to something up the wall? 
We are talking about the alert that happened in the main bedroom aren't we?
You are still talking about cooked pork.  The dogs were trained not to alert to food. 
The video I saw Eddie was sniffing the wardrobe and the moment the camera operator goes behind Martin Grime Eddie starts barking so it is unsure where he last sniffed but the decision to bark isn't immediate the dog has to think about it first.  So IMO he was alerting to the wardrobe.

You haven't been reading the posts Rob.  There is evidence, posted to day or yesterday, that Eddie was trained on Pig (Cadavar). 

Now we know that modern supervised methods of hygeinically (Spelling ?) killed and prepared pig are free from cadavar odour, but we are talking here of ordinary and peasant type people with a pig in their shed / back garden.  I think it is very doubtful that their standards would be the same as those overseen by the Authorities.

I think that I read that cadavareine starts formig in less than an hour, in fact I think I have read that it starts virtually immediately after death.  These ordinary, non commercial, pig keepers are not going to throw away meat because there is a tiny amount of cadavareine in it, but the ultra keen nose of a search dog will spot it.


We know that cadavar dogs alert to burnt people.  These dogs are used in fires to find charred bodies, even the dust of burnt bodies.  There is a similarity between pig cadavar odour and human cadavar odour, cos Eddie as trained on pig cadavar odour and uses his expertise on human cadavars.


From all this, it is reasonable to question whether the odour on the wall is Cadavar odour from a pork sandwich etc

[misty]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4201303/

snipped
In detection dogs, the accuracy of the detection depends on both the dog’s olfactory capability to identify the target odor and the interpretation of the dog’s behavior by a handler. Earlier studies in detection dogs have not directly analyzed the relationship between sniffing behavior and accuracy of odor discrimination in detection tasks, concentrating instead on the total duration of the search (Thesen et al. 1993; Jezierski et al. 2008). Our results indicate that sniffing behavior can be used alongside the trained alert response to more effectively assess detection. Specifically, we found that the sniffing duration of detection dogs used in this study is shortest when the target odor is not present and the dogs indicate this by not offering an alert response (true negative), and the dogs only ever performed one sniffing episode towards these samples compared with the other responses (true positive, false positive, and false negative). In particular, samples that resulted in true positive, false positive, and false negative decisions were sniffed for approximately twice the amount of time of true negatives. In other words, the detection dogs used in this study sniffed for twice the amount of time when the target odor was present or when it was indicated as present on a negative sample.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The full paper is worth reading, despite not being specific to cadaver dogs.
If anyone sees fit, perhaps a comparison of Eddie's alerts seen on the video could be compared to the findings detailed in this report, especially as it demonstrates the inconsistency between Eddie's alert at the wardrobe & the alert behind the sofa (or at the end of the sofa, take your pick).

[Robittybob1]

You haven't been reading the posts Rob.  There is evidence, posted to day or yesterday, that Eddie was trained on Pig (Cadavar). 

Now we know that modern supervised methods of hygeinically (Spelling ?) killed and prepared pig are free from cadavar odour, but we are talking here of ordinary and peasant type people with a pig in their shed / back garden.  I think it is very doubtful that their standards would be the same as those overseen by the Authorities.

I think that I read that cadavareine starts formig in less than an hour, in fact I think I have read that it starts virtually immediately after death.  These ordinary, non commercial, pig keepers are not going to throw away meat because there is a tiny amount of cadavareine in it, but the ultra keen nose of a search dog will spot it.


We know that cadavar dogs alert to burnt people.  These dogs are used in fires to find charred bodies, even the dust of burnt bodies.  There is a similarity between pig cadavar odour and human cadavar odour, cos Eddie as trained on pig cadavar odour and uses his expertise on human cadavars.


From all this, it is reasonable to question whether the odour on the wall is Cadavar odour from a pork sandwich etc

Even if there was a slight amount of cadaverine production in a slaughtered pig the dogs are trained to not alert to food.  As I said many times it is not just the detection of cadaverine that the EVRD cadaver dogs are detecting but human cadaver.  Food would have additional smells to it that let the dog know that is food not human cadaver IMO.  It could be odours associated with processing e.g. smoking, salts, spices etc which assist the dog to distinguish food from decomposed cadaver.

[Robittybob1]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4201303/

snipped
In detection dogs, the accuracy of the detection depends on both the dog’s olfactory capability to identify the target odor and the interpretation of the dog’s behavior by a handler. Earlier studies in detection dogs have not directly analyzed the relationship between sniffing behavior and accuracy of odor discrimination in detection tasks, concentrating instead on the total duration of the search (Thesen et al. 1993; Jezierski et al. 2008). Our results indicate that sniffing behavior can be used alongside the trained alert response to more effectively assess detection. Specifically, we found that the sniffing duration of detection dogs used in this study is shortest when the target odor is not present and the dogs indicate this by not offering an alert response (true negative), and the dogs only ever performed one sniffing episode towards these samples compared with the other responses (true positive, false positive, and false negative). In particular, samples that resulted in true positive, false positive, and false negative decisions were sniffed for approximately twice the amount of time of true negatives. In other words, the detection dogs used in this study sniffed for twice the amount of time when the target odor was present or when it was indicated as present on a negative sample.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The full paper is worth reading, despite not being specific to cadaver dogs.
If anyone sees fit, perhaps a comparison of Eddie's alerts seen on the video could be compared to the findings detailed in this report, especially as it demonstrates the inconsistency between Eddie's alert at the wardrobe & the alert behind the sofa (or at the end of the sofa, take your pick).

I like this reference Misty for it shows in some way the dogs think about what they are doing, and at times when the odour are less than obvious they sniff longer but still get it wrong more often.  Well that is how I think of it.  At all times there will be a delay between sniffing and alerting IMO.
A type of reaction time. 

[Miss Taken Identity]

Yep, but she was a widow abroad ... and it seems likely that she would have gained comfort from having what reamined of her hubby close to her in bed.   Likewise the pjays that he died in  (washed but with the residual very slight odour of cadavarine) might well have been on the bedside table, where she could touch them and gain comfort from them.


How else do you, or your side, account for the smell of cadavarine being up the wall ?


There was no reasonable excuse for removing my flying pigs thesis from this post. I was merely pointing out as to why pigs blood could be up the walls.


all a bit Pathetic and sad really..... but for me very entertaining!



Another thought is that Keela being a smaller placid dog, may not have been close enough to smell a blood spot up there, whilst the bigger, younger bouncy Eddies nostrils came closer.   In that case the scent could have been from a spot of dessicatd blood on the wall from a living person.

Or it could posibly have been from cooked pork


We just don't know and without any forensic evidence it is, imo, foolhardy and unjust to make suggestions that the alert was to Madeleines cadavar odour.


As I said before, JUST HOW COULD MADELEINES DEAD BODY ODOUR HAVE GOT SO HIGH UP THAT WALL?

Any suggestions?

So you think the abducter/s didn't kill her in the apartment then? OK fair enough.

[Sunny]

Yep, but she was a widow abroad ... and it seems likely that she would have gained comfort from having what reamined of her hubby close to her in bed.   Likewise the pjays that he died in  (washed but with the residual very slight odour of cadavarine) might well have been on the bedside table, where she could touch them and gain comfort from them.


How else do you, or your side, account for the smell of cadavarine being up the wall ?



Another thought is that Keela being a smaller placid dog, may not have been close enough to smell a blood spot up there, whilst the bigger, younger bouncy Eddies nostrils came closer.   In that case the scent could have been from a spot of dessicatd blood on the wall from a living person.

Or it could posibly have been from cooked pork


We just don't know and without any forensic evidence it is, imo, foolhardy and unjust to make suggestions that the alert was to Madeleines cadavar odour.


As I said before, JUST HOW COULD MADELEINES DEAD BODY ODOUR HAVE GOT SO HIGH UP THAT WALL?

Any suggestions?

Sadie, sorry but that post is rubbish. Martin Grime was explicit that Eddie wouldn't alert to cooked pork.  The alert was not up the wall but in the area of the wardrobe. You are making excuses by using some hypothetical ashes and pyjamas.  Keela had an excellent nose for detecting the smallest drop of blood.  All in all I have to disagree with everything you have posted.

[barrier]

Sadie, sorry but that post is rubbish. Martin Grime was explicit that Eddie wouldn't alert to cooked pork.  The alert was not up the wall but in the area of the wardrobe. You are making excuses by using some hypothetical ashes and pyjamas.  Keela had an excellent nose for detecting the smallest drop of blood.  All in all I have to disagree with everything you have posted.

From Martin Grime.

"'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and
locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or
terrain. The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and
stil born decomposing piglets. The importance of this is that the dog is
introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. This
ensures that the dog disregards the 'bacon sandwich' and 'kebab' etc that is
ever present in the background environment. Therefore the dog would
remain efficient searching for a cadaver in a café where the clientele were sat
eating bacon sandwiches. He has additionally trained exclusively using
human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced
training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent'
odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not
contact the subject. This method is comparable to the simulation of cross
contamination. It does however differ in that the remote scent samples
recovery does not involve subject matter and therefore is a 'pure' scent
sample. The dog has since initial training gained considerable experience in
successfully operationally locating human remains and evidential forensic
material."



Feel a song coming on.

https://youtu.be/ZVIiQ8iNvKc

[Brietta]

From Martin Grime.

"'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and
locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or
terrain. The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and
stil born decomposing piglets. The importance of this is that the dog is
introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. This
ensures that the dog disregards the 'bacon sandwich' and 'kebab' etc that is
ever present in the background environment. Therefore the dog would
remain efficient searching for a cadaver in a café where the clientele were sat
eating bacon sandwiches. He has additionally trained exclusively using
human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced
training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent'
odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not
contact the subject. This method is comparable to the simulation of cross
contamination. It does however differ in that the remote scent samples
recovery does not involve subject matter and therefore is a 'pure' scent
sample. The dog has since initial training gained considerable experience in
successfully operationally locating human remains and evidential forensic
material."



Feel a song coming on.

https://youtu.be/ZVIiQ8iNvKc

In my role as advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States.

These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced decomposing pig cadavers into training assessments 100 % of the animals alerted to the medium. (The products were obtained from whole piglet cadaver not processed food for human consumption).

The result from scientific experiments and research to date is suggestive that the scent of human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train' the dog to distinguish between the two.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

[Sunny]

In my role as advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States.

These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced decomposing pig cadavers into training assessments 100 % of the animals alerted to the medium. (The products were obtained from whole piglet cadaver not processed food for human consumption).

The result from scientific experiments and research to date is suggestive that the scent of human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train' the dog to distinguish between the two.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

Where does it say that Martin Grime introduced cooked pork and all the dogs alerted Brietta?  Your post is pointless IMO.