The Science Of Sleep - Does It Offer A Better Explanation Than Sedation?

[Robittybob1]

Would depend upon when this 'accident' happened. -IMO

Explain how to the forum. 
If it happened before she woke and wandered, that is possible I suppose.  Go to bed with a sore head, wake up dizzy and wander into the path of a car.
If it happened after she woke (Amaral type theory) hurt herself , wandered into trouble.
If the accident happened after the alarm, she could have been quite some distance if for some reason she thought that she had to go to wrong restaurant.

[jassi]

Explain how to the forum. 
If it happened before she woke and wandered, that is possible I suppose.  Go to bed with a sore head, wake up dizzy and wander into the path of a car.
If it happened after she woke (Amaral type theory) hurt herself , wandered into trouble.
If the accident happened after the alarm, she could have been quite some distance if for some reason she thought that she had to go to wrong restaurant.

What's to explain ? She could have had an accident at any time.

[Robittybob1]

What's to explain ? She could have had an accident at any time.

No - you said "depends" - explain the dependence please?

Quote "Would depend upon when this 'accident' happened. -IMO"   What would depend on the timing?

[jassi]

No - you said "depends" - explain the dependence please?

Quote "Would depend upon when this 'accident' happened. -IMO"   What would depend on the timing?

The time interval  would influence the range of actions that could take place -IMO

[Lace]

I disagree Holly,

The parents are more aware of their childs sleep patterns than a scientific research taken under clinical conditions.
No one can really read minds when people are sleeping regardless of their scientific background.
There are various reasons for falling into a deep sleep at certain times of the night. We can't take one child sleeping being carried off a flight as evidence of the child being a deep sleeper.  We are not privvy to the activity or lack of sleep pre flight home.

So why were they surprised ?  they were surprised because they knew their children were light sleepers. offering a scientific explanation just isn't relevent here.

Anesthetics is very relevent here because the mother suspected her children were drugged- she would have a better idea than most lay person- so why not demand the children be taken to hospital in case their life was in danger?

You see here is where I have a problem. they claim to be loving parents and yet they leave their babies alone every night, one is claimed to have been abducted via a window, the mother runs out of the apartment to alert the others, doesn't contact police immediatly but does a quick search?????,Mother suspects the other two children have been drugged and does nothing. When told cadaver dogs alerted to a scent rather than bcome upset that it may be their daughters via the abductor/s they dissmiss out of hand and laugh it off?

You are always telling me that I make things up but reading your post,  you really are talking nonsense.

They were loving parents it is obvious they were,  nannies saying the children ran out eagerly to greet them when they arrived chatting about what they had done that day.  Nannies saying the children were happy.  If the McCann's weren't loving parents then it would definitely show in how the children behaved IMO

How do you know they 'knew their children were light sleepers'   Kate said Madeleine slept very well and if she did wake up it was the early hours of the morning.   I think the words from Madeleine's mother means a lot more than yours do.

Kate thought her children had been drugged because she found a stain on Madeleine's pyjama top the morning of the 3rd of May.   Being distraught she remembered it and wondered if the twins had been drugged.   Fiona however said they were fine.   

Who said Madeleine had been abducted through the window? 

Everyone would search for the child before calling the Police,  as soon as she wasn't found the Police were called.

[Robittybob1]

The time interval  would influence the range of actions that could take place -IMO

I originally said "The greater the checking the more likely woke and wandered then an accident of some sort IMO."

Implying the accident happened after the wandering commenced.  So how do you define the "time interval"?  What two point events in time are you measuring exactly?

[Holly Goodhead]

Do you think that the McCann were heartless and reckless to leave their daughter alone the night after she told them that she had been crying because she woken up and they were not there ?

According to McCanns when they pressed MM for more info she didn't volunteer any and seemed undisturbed.  They seemed to write it off as a non-event. 

In answer to your question I find the whole "childcare arrangement" scheme mind boggling. 

I do find KM's comment on P94 a little odd:

"It seems so daft now, but I didn't switch on the light straight away.  Force of habit, I suppose: taking care to avoid waking the children at all costs".

When she says 'force of habit' does she mean during the holiday or at all times?  To say 'avoid waking the children at all costs' seems a bit extreme imo.  Would it really be such a big deal if 1 or more of the children woke during her checks?  Is this the reason they kept the patio doors unlocked so as to avoid any noise from opening and closing the front door?   

[jassi]

I originally said "The greater the checking the more likely woke and wandered then an accident of some sort IMO."

Implying the accident happened after the wandering commenced.  So how do you define the "time interval"?  What two point events in time are you measuring exactly?

I admit I missed that subtlety . I was going on the point that an accident could have occurred at any time, not just that evening.

[slartibartfast]

According to McCanns when they pressed MM for more info she didn't volunteer any and seemed undisturbed.  They seemed to write it off as a non-event. 

In answer to your question I find the whole "childcare arrangement" scheme mind boggling. 

I do find KM's comment on P94 a little odd:

"It seems so daft now, but I didn't switch on the light straight away.  Force of habit, I suppose: taking care to avoid waking the children at all costs".

When she says 'force of habit' does she mean during the holiday or at all times?  To say 'avoid waking the children at all costs' seems a bit extreme imo.  Would it really be such a big deal if 1 or more of the children woke during her checks?  Is this the reason they kept the patio doors unlocked so as to avoid any noise from opening and closing the front door?   

To me, “at all costs” could indicate very hands off checking, e.g. listening near the apartment.

[Robittybob1]

I admit I missed that subtlety . I was going on the point that an accident could have occurred at any time, not just that evening.

OK "an accident could have occurred at any time, not just that evening"  but was Madeleine capable of waking and wandering after that "accident"?  If she isn't capable of walking she can't do any wandering.

[Robittybob1]

To me, “at all costs” could indicate very hands off checking, e.g. listening near the apartment.

Or, if already in the apartment, not going into the kid's room unless there was some indication that it was necessary.

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

In my opinion the point isn't whether the children were sedated or not. The point ia why Kate McCann wanted people to think they were.

As to sedating children on flights, apparently it's quite common. Something that was news to me, I must admit.

Maybe that was to create more scenarios to suggest persons unknown could have drugged children in case some evidence turned up to suggest the twins were indeed sedated by POMs.

Consider though in all seriousness the route of administration IV, IM or oral (I'm discounting inhalational as pure fantasy)?. The twins weren't cannulated, IM would take too long to work.... Oral? By a stranger to three (sleeping) toddlers and all in a few minutes before the next check.... don't be silly!!

[Miss Taken Identity]

Maybe that was to create more scenarios to suggest persons unknown could have drugged children in case some evidence turned up to suggest the twins were indeed sedated by POMs.

Consider though in all seriousness the route of administration IV, IM or oral (I'm discounting inhalational as pure fantasy)?. The twins weren't cannulated, IM would take too long to work.... Oral? By a stranger to three (sleeping) toddlers and all in a few minutes before the next check.... don't be silly!!

There was also a suggestion that the parents sedated them to stop them waking up crying. Some one mentioned calpol, which isn't a sedative, however, parents can sedate their children with adult prescribed drugs.

I am not suggesting or implying the McCanns drugged their children- it was just something which provoked a thought by Kate mentioning it.


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How do you know they 'knew their children were light sleepers'   Kate said Madeleine slept very well and if she did wake up it was the early hours of the morning.   I think the words from Madeleine's mother means a lot more than yours do.

Yes but I wasn't there so I WAS going by the mothers and daughters evidence!  mum didn't want to put the light onnin case she woke the children?    DShe also claimed Her daugher asked where they wre when Sean woke up crying?  please,

Kate thought her children had been drugged because she found a stain on Madeleine's pyjama top the morning of the 3rd of May. 

No, kate thought they were drugged that night. read her book !

Who said Madeleine had been abducted through the window? 

The family said it! 


Everyone would search for the child before calling the Police,  as soon as she wasn't found the Police were called.

who is 'everyone'?  If you scream your daughter has been abducted you call the police FIRST  or do you come from a different school of thought?



If you insist on  picking my post apart;  arm yourself with a reasonable argument and not a pile of tosh.

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

You are always telling me that I make things up but reading your post,  you really are talking nonsense.



How do you know they 'knew their children were light sleepers'   Kate said Madeleine slept very well and if she did wake up it was the early hours of the morning.   I think the words from Madeleine's mother means a lot more than yours do.

Madeleine had a star chart at home - she was given a star when she managed to stay in bed all night!

[Vertigo Swirl]

Madeleine had a star chart at home - she was given a star when she managed to stay in bed all night!

Everything you know about Madeleine you know from her parents, two people who you also appear to believe are liars and untrustworthy.  Ironic innit.