Fingerprints

[Eleanor]

Not when the emphasis is on the pronoun. 

Anyway lets get back on topic, shall we?

What a good idea.

[Holly Goodhead]

You've ducked the question yet again.

I am beginning to detect a trend.

What question? 

[Holly Goodhead]

What a good idea.

I sent an email to OG pointing out the anomaly over the fingerprint so it should be possible for it to be reevaluated if appropriate to do so.

[Vertigo Swirl]

You've ducked the question yet again.

I am beginning to detect a trend.

A good moment to deploy Faithlilly’s  patented Irony Klaxon.  PARP!!

[Eleanor]

I sent an email to OG pointing out the anomaly over the fingerprint so it should be possible for it to be reevaluated if appropriate to do so.

I have never sent anything to OG.  My Theory is so simple to follow that they must already have thought of this.

But my neighbour thinks it is a good one.  And he is not the easiest person to bamboozle.

Fingerprints do come into this, but I would be giving things away if I said how.

[Holly Goodhead]

I'm just reading the wit stats of first respondents:

- Jose Maria Batista Roque

- Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa

At the time the above were members of GNR and arrived at OC reception where they were met by among others GM who told the officers MM had been abducted.  Certainly in the UK officers are trained not to be conditioned by witnesses, abduction or no abduction, can there be any justifiable reason(s) why these 2 GNR officers would not don a pair of gloves before entering 5A?

I've only just skimmed the wit stats but can already identify one anomaly in that Costa states he physically checked the apartment but Roque claims Costa waited in the hall.  If Costa waited in the hall then it really begs the question how his fingerprint ended up on the side of the patio door?

[Holly Goodhead]

I have never sent anything to OG.  My Theory is so simple to follow that they must already have thought of this.

But my neighbour thinks it is a good one.  And he is not the easiest person to bamboozle.

Fingerprints do come into this, but I would be giving things away if I said how.

Well up until about a decade ago I would not have sent anything to the likes of OG on the basis I would think they must know sooooo much more than me!  However having witnessed first-hand how the so-called experts called it wrong over the financial crisis of 2007/08 after I sent a letter in 2006 to the then Chairman of the City regulator, Sir Callum McCarthy, warning him of what was going on (I was an industry practitioner at the time) and the likely consequences nothing surprises me anymore!

[John]

Using capitals just makes you seem shouty. 

Your argument is that it was better for PJ to fire off numerous requests all over the globe before eliminating officers at the soc.

Please supply a copy of Portugal's police training manual for 2007.  I would be most surprised if I  discovered that when called to an incident where the parents of a missing child are screaming abduction officers take it upon themselves to search an apartment ungloved.  If this is the case then it does not support the idea PJ were fit for purpose.

I wouldn't concern yourself with my theory.  I'm sure yours is infinitely superior given the hours/posts you have dedicated to this single case.   

Police don't routinely carry or wear gloves Holly. A police officer called to a house after receiving a report of a missing child will do a search without using gloves.

[Holly Goodhead]

Police don't routinely carry or wear gloves Holly. A police officer called to a house after receiving a report of a missing child will do a search without using gloves.

But the first respondents met with GM, among others, at OC reception who was adamant that MM had been abducted.

Surely defence lawyers would have a field day at trial if officers' fingerprints are all over soc? 

[The General]

But the first respondents met with GM, among others, at OC reception who was adamant that MM had been abducted.

Surely defence lawyers would have a field day at trial if officers' fingerprints are all over soc?

I don't see it. These are still first response officers. They're still establishing what's gone on.
I'm not defending any position here, I just don't think it's protocol at that stage at all.
The FBI guide states that the local patrol officer attends first in 'missing child' cases, establishes the facts, takes the names of everyone at the scene, commences a thorough search, then starts taking witness statements from immediate family.
Gotta be honest, there'll be little need for gloves at this stage, as the overwhelming majority of cases the child is hiding in the house or environs, or has been taken from the area by family members in dispute.

[Holly Goodhead]

I don't see it. These are still first response officers. They're still establishing what's gone on.
I'm not defending any position here, I just don't think it's protocol at that stage at all.
The FBI guide states that the local patrol officer attends first in 'missing child' cases, establishes the facts, takes the names of everyone at the scene, commences a thorough search, then starts taking witness statements from immediate family.
Gotta be honest, there'll be little need for gloves at this stage, as the overwhelming majority of cases the child is hiding in the house or environs, or has been taken from the area by family members in dispute.

I keep asking what Portugal's 2007 police training manual states?

As I see it police have no idea how a call out is going to develop.  It could be anything from a Dale Cregan like character who killed 2 officers in a completely unprovoked gun and grenade attack to a mischievous child wanting to play hide and seek.  Surely the emphasis would be to errr on the side of caution not only for their own personal safety and that of others but also to think it through to any eventual charges/trial and to avoid contaminating any potential soc.

[The General]

I keep asking what Portugal's 2007 police training manual states?

As I see it police have no idea how a call out is going to develop.  It could be anything from a Dale Cregan like character who killed 2 officers in a completely unprovoked gun and grenade attack to a mischievous child wanting to play hide and seek.  Surely the emphasis would be to errr on the side of caution not only for their own personal safety and that of others but also to think it through to any eventual charges/trial and to avoid contaminating any potential soc.

You'd think so, but this isn't exactly East Side of Detroit; it's a sleepy seaside town in 2007, off season, with a local bobby nobbing about in a Fiat 500.
Besides, even with a robust protocol being adhered to, the scene was obliterated by innumerable people - hence my earlier comment regarding the absence of retrievable prints generally.

As for the training manual, you'd obtain it, but some tool would tell you that the translation was rubbish, so neh neh ne neh neh, etc.

[Holly Goodhead]

If we find other anomalies a new thread can be started dedicated to this aspect of the case but in the meantime I've just quickly skimmed the wit stats from first respondents and highlighted an anomaly pertinent to the fingerprint. 

From PJ files it seems first respondents made wit stats as follows:

- Jose Roque: 7th May, 16th May and 17th Oct

- Nelson da Costa: 7th May, 16th May

The PJ investigation led to an unidentified fingerprint on the side of the patio door.  Requests were made to various other countries seeking assistance with identification.  Germany responded by saying it could have originated from a woman or youth but not a child.  PJ then attributed the fingerprint to GNR officer da Costa.

Having received the call Roque and da Costa arrived at OC main reception where GM advised the GNR officers MM had been abducted.  GM along with the GNR officers and others then went to 5A where Roque and da Costa state they entered through the wood door. 

da Costa:

Then, with his colleague, he searched the apartment. He opened all the cupboards of the bedrooms, living room and kitchen and he checked under the beds and in the fridge.

Roque:

Then, while his colleague remained in the hall, and the others were in the living room, the witness went through the entire apartment. He opened all the cupboards in the bedrooms, living room and kitchen and checked under the beds and inside the washing machine. He did not see the fridge.

So we have da Costa saying he searched the apartment incl the fridge.  Then we have Roque saying he alone searched the apartment whist his colleague remained in the hall but that he did not see the fridge.

[Eleanor]

Police don't routinely carry or wear gloves Holly. A police officer called to a house after receiving a report of a missing child will do a search without using gloves.

Not on Tele they don't.

[Eleanor]

I don't see it. These are still first response officers. They're still establishing what's gone on.
I'm not defending any position here, I just don't think it's protocol at that stage at all.
The FBI guide states that the local patrol officer attends first in 'missing child' cases, establishes the facts, takes the names of everyone at the scene, commences a thorough search, then starts taking witness statements from immediate family.
Gotta be honest, there'll be little need for gloves at this stage, as the overwhelming majority of cases the child is hiding in the house or environs, or has been taken from the area by family members in dispute.

What about the woman dusting for Fingerprints?