Author Topic: Question to members  (Read 36325 times)

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Offline Miss Taken Identity

Re: Question to members
« Reply #195 on: April 05, 2020, 07:27:16 PM »
The criminal justice system isn't about proving innonecence.  At trial it's for the prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt the defendant is guilty.  At appeal it's for the defence to undermine the prosecutions case to an extent 3 appeal court judges deem its unsafe.

I believe new forensic tests will result in JB's conviction being overturned.


And do you think that will happen anytime soon holly?

'Never underestimate the power of stupid people'... George Carlin

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Question to members
« Reply #196 on: April 05, 2020, 07:30:27 PM »
What possible reason would there have been for any human blood to be inside the silencer, never mind female blood, if it hadn’t been used in the murders?
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Miss Taken Identity

Re: Question to members
« Reply #197 on: April 05, 2020, 07:36:38 PM »
What possible reason would there have been for any human blood to be inside the silencer, never mind female blood, if it hadn’t been used in the murders?

Blood from the person removing the silencer? or the silencer being removed while being placed onto Sheilas body, and removed again.
'Never underestimate the power of stupid people'... George Carlin

Offline Caroline

Re: Question to members
« Reply #198 on: April 05, 2020, 07:38:18 PM »
The criminal justice system isn't about proving innonecence.  At trial it's for the prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt the defendant is guilty.  At appeal it's for the defence to undermine the prosecutions case to an extent 3 appeal court judges deem its unsafe.

I believe new forensic tests will result in JB's conviction being overturned.

If you are talking abut tests that you have paid for then there would be a lot more to it than that. Firstly, how seriously do you think that the results would be taken when it becomes known that they were paid for by an Bamber is innocent suporter? They would need a lot more than one set of results that were significantly consistent not just something that you present and that's IF such tests showed what you were hoping for.

Offline Myster

Re: Question to members
« Reply #199 on: April 05, 2020, 08:16:57 PM »

And do you think that will happen anytime soon holly?
As soon as her chief suspect in the McCann case is arrested no doubt.  8((()*/
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline clockend

Re: Question to members
« Reply #200 on: April 05, 2020, 10:11:03 PM »
490. Samples obtained from Sheila Caffell's natural mother and from other sources enabled the scientists to say with confidence that the major component did not come from Sheila Caffell. Because the blood sample of June Bamber no longer exists, it has not been possible to do a direct comparison between her DNA and that of the major component. However, it has been possible to obtain a sample from June Bamber's sister, Pamela Boutflour, which because closely related relatives are statistically more likely to have shared components than unrelated individuals, has enabled conclusions to be drawn. That evidence shows that it is about 3,500 times more likely that the major source of DNA was from a full sister of Pamela Boutflour, i.e. June Bamber, compared to it being from an unrelated female. Both Mr Clayton and Miss Tomlinson, the DNA experts from whom we have heard, assessed this as strong evidenced that the major component therefore comes from June Bamber.

497. We, therefore, consider the matter on the basis that the conclusions to be drawn from the DNA evidence are:

i) June Bamber's DNA was in the sound moderator at the time of the DNA examination;

ii) Sheila Caffell's DNA may have been in the sound moderator but it was not possible to conclude one way or the other whether it was; and

iii) there was evidence of DNA from at least one male.
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

IF my understanding is correct the court elucidates further and goes on to question if any of the DNA
Is from blood.
Mr Hayward, Mr Fletcher, Dr Lincoln for the defence, Mr Ismail, and Mr Mark Webster defence expert
all examined the sound moderator for the presence of blood.
To quote the court they said
Thus it is clear that no blood was ever seen by any of those who had examined the baffles on any baffle beyond the eighth one from the bullet exiting end and nor have any tests revealed the presence of blood beyond this point. Dr Lincoln in April 1986 specifically tested all the baffles for blood and found no trace of any beyond the eighth baffle.
They go on to say that the (ccrc) conclusion that the DNA was likely to have come from blood found in the silencer at the time was said to be justified because it was found deep within the silencer,
cannot be sustained.
They then considered how the DNA could get inside the sound moderator other than back splattering during the killings.
They considered contamination to be a significant possibility.
To quote they said
That conclusion certainly ignores, at the very least, the examination by Dr Lincoln who removed all the baffles and tested them all so that contamination of baffles, whether deep inside or not, was a possibility. Even more importantly it failed to consider the use made of the moderator as an exhibit at trial where no sort of precautions would have been taken.
They then considered Mr Webster the defence expert on his report dated 22/9/2002
on the risk of contamination where he put forth many points.
Mr Webster concluded,
"The CCRC, in their statement of reasons, more or less excluded the possibility of contamination. In my opinion, the Commission was wrong to do so."
The appeal court felt that the DNA results were rendered completely meaningless.
they concluded
 Thus we are satisfied that the DNA evidence does not lead to any conclusion that the verdicts were unsafe. They do not in any way establish how June Bamber's DNA came to be found in the moderator many years after the trial. Even if one were to reject the possibility of contamination and conclude that June Bamber's blood got into the moderator during the shooting, THAT WOULD NOT MEAN SHEILA CAFFELLS BLOOD WAS NOT IN THE SILENCER. THE FLAKE OF BLOOD THAT WAS GROUP TESTED WAS INDEPENDENT OF THE DNA FOUND ON THE BAFFLES ATTRIBUTED TO JUNE BAMBER. The evidence about the blood testing is not, in our judgment, in any way diminished by the DNA findings, even if one ignored the whole issue of contamination at a later date.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 12:06:49 AM by Brietta »

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Question to members
« Reply #201 on: April 06, 2020, 07:56:10 PM »
IF my understanding is correct the court elucidates further and goes on to question if any of the DNA
Is from blood.
Mr Hayward, Mr Fletcher, Dr Lincoln for the defence, Mr Ismail, and Mr Mark Webster defence expert
all examined the sound moderator for the presence of blood.
To quote the court they said
Thus it is clear that no blood was ever seen by any of those who had examined the baffles on any baffle beyond the eighth one from the bullet exiting end and nor have any tests revealed the presence of blood beyond this point. Dr Lincoln in April 1986 specifically tested all the baffles for blood and found no trace of any beyond the eighth baffle.
They go on to say that the (ccrc) conclusion that the DNA was likely to have come from blood found in the silencer at the time was said to be justified because it was found deep within the silencer,
cannot be sustained.
They then considered how the DNA could get inside the sound moderator other than back splattering during the killings.
They considered contamination to be a significant possibility.
To quote they said
That conclusion certainly ignores, at the very least, the examination by Dr Lincoln who removed all the baffles and tested them all so that contamination of baffles, whether deep inside or not, was a possibility. Even more importantly it failed to consider the use made of the moderator as an exhibit at trial where no sort of precautions would have been taken.
They then considered Mr Webster the defence expert on his report dated 22/9/2002
on the risk of contamination where he put forth many points.
Mr Webster concluded,
"The CCRC, in their statement of reasons, more or less excluded the possibility of contamination. In my opinion, the Commission was wrong to do so."
The appeal court felt that the DNA results were rendered completely meaningless.
they concluded
 Thus we are satisfied that the DNA evidence does not lead to any conclusion that the verdicts were unsafe. They do not in any way establish how June Bamber's DNA came to be found in the moderator many years after the trial. Even if one were to reject the possibility of contamination and conclude that June Bamber's blood got into the moderator during the shooting, THAT WOULD NOT MEAN SHEILA CAFFELLS BLOOD WAS NOT IN THE SILENCER. THE FLAKE OF BLOOD THAT WAS GROUP TESTED WAS INDEPENDENT OF THE DNA FOUND ON THE BAFFLES ATTRIBUTED TO JUNE BAMBER. The evidence about the blood testing is not, in our judgment, in any way diminished by the DNA findings, even if one ignored the whole issue of contamination at a later date.

I don't believe Mr Ismail was involved with the blood/dna/silencer?

The court concluded the DNA evidence was "completely meaningless".

506. We have no doubt at all that if this evidence had been placed before a jury, they would have concluded, as we do, that in accordance with the emphasised part of Mr Webster's report quoted above, the DNA testing results were rendered "completely meaningless".

http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Question to members
« Reply #202 on: April 06, 2020, 07:57:33 PM »
I don't believe Mr Ismail was involved with the blood/dna/silencer?

The court concluded the DNA evidence was "completely meaningless".

506. We have no doubt at all that if this evidence had been placed before a jury, they would have concluded, as we do, that in accordance with the emphasised part of Mr Webster's report quoted above, the DNA testing results were rendered "completely meaningless".

http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

Bearing in mind Mr Webster was the defence expert.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline clockend

Re: Question to members
« Reply #203 on: April 06, 2020, 09:02:34 PM »
I don't believe Mr Ismail was involved with the blood/dna/silencer?

The court concluded the DNA evidence was "completely meaningless".

506. We have no doubt at all that if this evidence had been placed before a jury, they would have concluded, as we do, that in accordance with the emphasised part of Mr Webster's report quoted above, the DNA testing results were rendered "completely meaningless".

http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

Hi Holly.
498v v) On 29 March 1999, Mr Martyn Ismail, another forensic scientist and Mr Mark Webster, the defence expert, examined the sound moderator for the presence of blood. No visible signs of blood were found and a number of discrete tests for blood were performed but no blood was detected. More extensive chemical tests were not performed because they might have reduced the chance of obtaining DNA profiles.

Yes i agree with you that the court found the DNA evidence completely meaningless.
What they reiterated though was that the flake of blood that was group tested was independent of the DNA
found on the baffles attributed to June Bamber,
The evidence about the blood testing is not, in our judgment, in any way diminished by the DNA findings, even if one ignored the whole issue of contamination at a later date.  (507)


So as i understand it the court found the flake of blood  tested by Mr Hayward was not diminished by the DNA
evidence, and that it was independent of the DNA evidence, meaning it stands alone.
This is what the court said about the evidence given by Mr Hayward of Sheilas blood in situ of the sound moderator
481
. The evidence of Mr Hayward was not to the effect that all the blood in the moderator had been tested but rather that some of that blood had been tested. Thus this was not a case where the scientist was saying that the only blood in the moderator came from Sheila Caffell. His evidence was that the blood tested came from Sheila Caffell although he acknowledged the remote possibility that even that blood was a mixture of blood from Nevill Bamber and June Bamber.

So he found sheilas blood in the moderator with only a remote possibility of it being a mixture of Nevills and Junes

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Question to members
« Reply #204 on: April 06, 2020, 10:37:29 PM »
Hi Holly.
498v v) On 29 March 1999, Mr Martyn Ismail, another forensic scientist and Mr Mark Webster, the defence expert, examined the sound moderator for the presence of blood. No visible signs of blood were found and a number of discrete tests for blood were performed but no blood was detected. More extensive chemical tests were not performed because they might have reduced the chance of obtaining DNA profiles.

Yes i agree with you that the court found the DNA evidence completely meaningless.
What they reiterated though was that the flake of blood that was group tested was independent of the DNA
found on the baffles attributed to June Bamber,
The evidence about the blood testing is not, in our judgment, in any way diminished by the DNA findings, even if one ignored the whole issue of contamination at a later date.  (507)


So as i understand it the court found the flake of blood  tested by Mr Hayward was not diminished by the DNA
evidence, and that it was independent of the DNA evidence, meaning it stands alone.
This is what the court said about the evidence given by Mr Hayward of Sheilas blood in situ of the sound moderator
481
. The evidence of Mr Hayward was not to the effect that all the blood in the moderator had been tested but rather that some of that blood had been tested. Thus this was not a case where the scientist was saying that the only blood in the moderator came from Sheila Caffell. His evidence was that the blood tested came from Sheila Caffell although he acknowledged the remote possibility that even that blood was a mixture of blood from Nevill Bamber and June Bamber.

So he found sheilas blood in the moderator with only a remote possibility of it being a mixture of Nevills and Junes

Martyn Ismail was an expert for the prosecution at 2002 appeal re SC being moved at soc. I haven't seen anything about him being involved with the blood/dna/silencer.

I agree with what you've posted other than the last sentence.  The tests carried out in 1985 were based on blood serology and incapable of identifying an individual.  The test results will be shared by others.  Dr Lincoln said 8% of the white British population.

Assuming blood was found in the silencer as FSS claimed it still begs the question how it came to be there:

- out of all the blood stained exhibits only the flake inside the silencer was capable of yielding the results produced by FSS.

- only the blood flake inside the silencer was exposed to environmental conditions which would be expected to degrade blood (for serology tests) rendering it incapable of yielding results: hot firearm discharge gases and cyanoacrylate fuming chamber.

- drawback would not be expected with the small calibre rifle, low velocity ammo, silencer and neck shots

- when drawback does occur tissue would be expected to present with the blood - none was present.

- when drawback does occur it normally presents with headshots.

- Nicholas sustained a contact headshot but his blood groups were not found.

- FSS had quality issues during the 80's and imo therein lies the problem. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Question to members
« Reply #205 on: April 06, 2020, 10:43:48 PM »
I better practice what I preach and add cites/sources:

Quality issues at 3.3.1

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmsctech/writev/forensic/m61.htm
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Question to members
« Reply #206 on: April 06, 2020, 10:54:43 PM »

If you read my previous reply, Holly, you’ll understand that the appeal court judges were examining the trial that took place in 1986.

I repeat: in 1986 forensics discovered 13 markers in the blood sample which belonged to Sheila, and 13 markers were evidence enough that the blood was Sheila’s.

However, when that same blood was tested years later, by which time forensic evidence had moved forward, the sample showed 17 markers that matched Sheila’s. The court was told that the likelihood of that blood belonging to anyone else was a trillion to one, which Im sure you’ll agree is huge odds.

I feel you’re trying to turn this into something that doesn’t exist...it’s been established it’s Sheila’s blood and by you trying to cast doubts is doing the opposite of what you’re desperately trying to achieve.

It has taken me a while to find, but here it is;

At the date of the investigation into this case DNA testing was not available for consideration of the source of body fluids. Hence the blood samples and blood staining was not subjected to such testing and was only subjected to the much less sensitive blood group testing to which we have already referred.
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

Your claim that DNA evidence was involved in the 1986 trial is false.
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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Question to members
« Reply #207 on: April 06, 2020, 11:23:56 PM »
I better practice what I preach and add cites/sources:

Quality issues at 3.3.1

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmsctech/writev/forensic/m61.htm

Here's the confirmation from Dr Lincoln that the blood flake supposedly found inside the silencer represents blood groups shared by 8% of the white British population. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline ISpyWithMyEye

Re: Question to members
« Reply #208 on: April 07, 2020, 10:27:46 AM »
Here's the confirmation from Dr Lincoln that the blood flake supposedly found inside the silencer represents blood groups shared by 8% of the white British population.


Whatever are you talking about, Holly?

What do you mean by “the blood flake SUPPOSEDLY found inside the silencer”?

There was nothing “supposedly” about it: the blood flake was found, hence why you’re able to quote what forensics discovered by that flake: the blood group is shared by 8% of the white British population.

What a strange thing for you to say 😳

I myself share that same blood group (please don’t try and pin it on me), but what WAS compelling was that besides the blood group being rare — and matching  Sheila’s — ultimately, after the second DNA testing carried out years later, SEVENTEEN of Sheila’s DNA markers were found to be in that blood sample, which meant the chances of that blood belonging to anyone else was a TRILLION to one. HUGE ODDS, eh?

I also believe (though I need to check) the maximum amount of markers are just 20: so in the first trial when they’d discovered 13 markers, although it was HIGHLY likely it was Sheila’s blood, it wasn’t absolute. However, after further analysis years later they discovered SEVENTEEN markers, which corroborated their initial beliefs — that blood flake came from Sheila Caffell.

ADDED to that is the damning evidence that the blood splattered back deep down into the silencer in only the way back spatter from a gunshot can. Thus, the pattern of blood deep inside the silencer is concrete proof that it came from Sheila Caffell when Jeremy Bamber shot her.

Any suggestion by JB’s “team” that the blood was planted is not only ridiculous, but scientifically impossible.

So all this talk that the blood isn’t Sheila’s highlights the desperation and stupidity of Jeremy Bamber and his small team of campaigners who clearly struggle with scientific facts.
Seeking Justice for June & Nevill Bamber, Sheila Caffell & her two six-year-old twin boys who were shot dead in their heads by Psychopath, JEREMY BAMBER who must NEVER be released.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Question to members
« Reply #209 on: April 07, 2020, 10:41:01 AM »

Whatever are you talking about, Holly?

What do you mean by “the blood flake SUPPOSEDLY found inside the silencer”?

There was nothing “supposedly” about it: the blood flake was found, hence why you’re able to quote what forensics discovered by that flake: the blood group is shared by 8% of the white British population.

What a strange thing for you to say 😳

I myself share that same blood group (please don’t try and pin it on me), but what WAS compelling was that besides the blood group being rare — and matching  Sheila’s — ultimately, after the second DNA testing carried out years later, SEVENTEEN of Sheila’s DNA markers were found to be in that blood sample, which meant the chances of that blood belonging to anyone else was a TRILLION to one. HUGE ODDS, eh?

I also believe (though I need to check) the maximum amount of markers are just 20: so in the first trial when they’d discovered 13 markers, although it was HIGHLY likely it was Sheila’s blood, it wasn’t absolute. However, after further analysis years later they discovered SEVENTEEN markers, which corroborated their initial beliefs — that blood flake came from Sheila Caffell.

ADDED to that is the damning evidence that the blood splattered back deep down into the silencer in only the way back spatter from a gunshot can. Thus, the pattern of blood deep inside the silencer is concrete proof that it came from Sheila Caffell when Jeremy Bamber shot her.

Any suggestion by JB’s “team” that the blood was planted is not only ridiculous, but scientifically impossible.

So all this talk that the blood isn’t Sheila’s highlights the desperation and stupidity of Jeremy Bamber and his small team of campaigners who clearly struggle with scientific facts.

Members might like to read this;

http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

It makes it clear that no DNA tests were performed at the time of the first trial, and no DNA tests were performed on the 'blood flake'

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Result = happy posting.
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Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
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