Author Topic: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence  (Read 116735 times)

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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #195 on: May 10, 2020, 10:13:00 AM »
Succinctly put?

4/8 paras contain nothing but personal comments directed at me and the last concludes with a recommendation I see a counsellor.  This poster is already being 'watched' because his/her conduct continually breaks forum rules and yet you as a moderator see fit to condone.  Interesting.

Surely you can see the content is factually wrong?

Surely you understand dna evidence is expressed as the statistical possibility % of the biological sample under question coming from a member of the population at large as opposed to the defendant or victim?  Eg billion to one.  ISpy refers to a trillion to one in capitals!  How can it be a trillion to one when the possible pool is limited to the size of the human population ie 7/8 billion?
The size of the Earth’s population has got nothing to do with it https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/01/20/how-many-possible-combinations-of-dna-are-there/
Not a handwriting expert.

Online Eleanor

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #196 on: May 10, 2020, 10:17:38 AM »

I shall be Deleting any further rude or insulting personal remarks.

Offline Nicholas

Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #198 on: May 10, 2020, 11:01:24 AM »

It’s a FORENSIC FACT (which you yourself should know — or can look up), that initially 13 markers of Sheila’s blood were found inside the eighth baffle, splattered EXACTLY as back spatter fires back when someone’s being shot. That pattern is impossible to replicate.

At his appeal years later, when forensics had become more advanced — and which was slung out in less than an hour — they’d established FURTHER forensic EVIDENCE that SEVENTEEN of Sheila’s blood markers were found in that dried splatter of blood.

There are only 20 markers in one’s blood, and the forensic scientists said that it would be a TRILLION TO ONE if the blood wasn’t Sheila’s.



You’ve been banging on for YEARS — all to no avail — and that’s why few people reply to you: they probably don

You harp on about his appeal 18 years ago, which the courts graciously granted to make sure forensics were correct in their scientific findings — so they were actually HELPING Jeremy in his appeal — but when the judges discovered that the DNA evidence proved even MORE that the blood in the silencer was Sheila’s (they’d later discovered  SEVENTEEN markers rather than the 13 they’d found in 1985), that’s when they slung his case out. And that was only one hoop he had to jump through....how can he deny/dispute all the other overwhelming evidence?

I have edited your post to remove the personal comments where you concluded that I need to see a counsellor because of my case related views.

If you disagree with the following you will need to provide case related material to support your assertions.  If you are unable to and continue to post disinformation I will remove it.

1.  At trial all blood stained exhibits were analysed by blood serology which was the precursor to DNA testing unavailable at the time of trial in 1986:

Ground 15 is the sole ground upon which this case was referred to the Court by the CCRC. It is based upon the testing of the sound moderator for DNA, a technique that was not available at trial.

2.  You refer to 13 and 20 markers relating to SC.  This relates to the DNA testing and is based on bands not markers.  The scientists agreed there was no reliable statistical analysis to provide any meaning for the 17/20 bands.  Hence the court concluded it wasn't possible to conclude one way or the other whether SC's DNA was in the silencer:

496. In the interpretation of the results, Dr Clayton called on behalf of the appellant and Miss Groombridge, called on behalf of the prosecution disagreed to a limited extent. Both agreed that Sheila Caffell could have contributed to this mixture of DNA but Miss Groombridge was prepared to go further and say that the findings provided support for the proposition that she had contributed to the mixture. She was, however, unable to determine the level of support provided. In her evidence to the court she explained her reasoning. Seventeen of the twenty bands attributable to Sheila Caffell had been detected in DNA from the internal swabbings. Random chance would have suggested thirteen common bands would be found and hence since there was significantly more than thirteen, it provided some support for the DNA of Sheila Caffell being in the moderator. However, Miss Groombridge was unable to perform any sort of statistical evaluation of the likelihood of this happening and hence unable to assess the strength of the support. Dr Clayton, whilst acknowledging the respect that he had for Miss Groombridge's views and whilst recognising the possible validity of the point that she made, felt that it was unsafe to draw any such conclusion. Whilst we recognise that there may very well be merit in Miss Groombridge's evidence in this regard, we doubt very much whether a jury would have been prepared to place any significant reliance upon it so that it might have altered any view which they otherwise would have reached.

497. We, therefore, consider the matter on the basis that the conclusions to be drawn from the DNA evidence are:

i) June Bamber's DNA was in the sound moderator at the time of the DNA examination;

ii) Sheila Caffell's DNA may have been in the sound moderator but it was not possible to conclude one way or the other whether it was; and

iii) there was evidence of DNA from at least one male.


3.  The blood flake that underpins JB's conviction was, we are told, found trapped under baffles 1 and 2:

461. On 8 September 1986, Dr Lincoln again went to the laboratory and this time met and discussed the matter with Mr Hayward. As a result of this meeting, Dr Lincoln appreciated that the blood tested all came from a single flake trapped under the first or second baffle. In a letter to the defence solicitors, Dr Lincoln said that Mr Hayward "used this single flake to produce a solution from which he was able to determine the groups". He said that this meant that the possible explanation he had earlier suggested as to a combination of more than one persons blood no longer applied.

4.  Malcom Fletcher who was responsible for unassembling the silencer said he thought blood extended possibly to the 7th baffle.

John Hayward who was responsible for the blood tests thought the blood extended to the 5th baffle.

How can two 'experts' testifying at trial be so vague?  Where are the notes, diagrams and photographic evidence?

Contrary to your assertion that blood was found on the 8th baffle neither MF or JH observed it beyond the 7th baffle.  And blood stain analysis was not used at trial or the 2002 appeal  in an attempt to determine whether the distribution within the silencer corresponded with the drawback phenomenon.

http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
« Last Edit: May 10, 2020, 11:13:59 AM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #199 on: May 10, 2020, 11:08:08 AM »
The size of the Earth’s population has got nothing to do with it https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/01/20/how-many-possible-combinations-of-dna-are-there/

Are you suggesting a person's DNA changes? 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #200 on: May 10, 2020, 11:54:48 AM »
Are you suggesting a person's DNA changes?

If the DNA evidence presented at court is capable of changing, either biologically or numerically in how it relates to the population at large, then how come it is used to either convict or exonerate decades later?

Surely defence and prosecution lawyers would simply argue the defendant/appellant's dna had changed? 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #201 on: May 10, 2020, 11:55:45 AM »
Are you suggesting a person's DNA changes?
LOL, no, why?  Are you suggesting that there the maximum number of DNA combinations is 7 billion?
Not a handwriting expert.

Offline ISpyWithMyEye

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #202 on: May 10, 2020, 01:03:21 PM »
Succinctly put?

4/8 paras contain nothing but personal comments directed at me and the last concludes with a recommendation I see a counsellor.  This poster is already being 'watched' because his/her conduct continually breaks forum rules and yet you as a moderator see fit to condone.  Interesting.

Surely you can see the content is factually wrong?

Surely you understand dna evidence is expressed as the statistical possibility % of the biological sample under question coming from a member of the population at large as opposed to the defendant or victim?  Eg billion to one.  ISpy refers to a trillion to one in capitals!  How can it be a trillion to one when the possible pool is limited to the size of the human population ie 7/8 billion?


I’ve actually got the link somewhere...I’ll look later 🙄

I’m about to cook Sunday dinner so certainly shan't hunt for it now....zzzz

I’m sure you’ve read it yourself, anyway...you do this all the time when you don’t like a fact: you ask for proof. And if I do ever give proof you ignore it!

Seeking Justice for June & Nevill Bamber, Sheila Caffell & her two six-year-old twin boys who were shot dead in their heads by Psychopath, JEREMY BAMBER who must NEVER be released.

Offline ISpyWithMyEye

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #203 on: May 10, 2020, 01:06:18 PM »
I am certain sure that I am not the only one who reads Holly's Comments.

Possibly not...

Maybe you have lots of time on your hands to read long-winded pasted excerpts that are often unrelated to the Bamber case...
Seeking Justice for June & Nevill Bamber, Sheila Caffell & her two six-year-old twin boys who were shot dead in their heads by Psychopath, JEREMY BAMBER who must NEVER be released.

Online Eleanor

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #204 on: May 10, 2020, 01:09:04 PM »
Possibly not...

Maybe you have lots of time on your hands to read long-winded pasted excerpts that are often unrelated to the Bamber case...

Obviously, since I read your comments as well.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #205 on: May 10, 2020, 01:13:23 PM »
LOL, no, why?  Are you suggesting that there the maximum number of DNA combinations is 7 billion?

I'm saying dna evidence presented at trial is done by way of statistical analysis based on the population at large which currently stands at around 7.5 billion.  Any mention of a trillion in this context is clearly nonsense. 

If a person's DNA is uploaded to a dna database and maintained and such a person subsequently commits a crime leaving biological material at the soc a dna match can be made.  At trial lawyers will present this evidence by way of stastical analysis eg a "billion to one" see the murder of Sally Bowman and conviction of Mark Dixie:

There was a one-in-a-billion chance it could have belonged to someone else," said Julie-Ann Cornelius, the senior forensic scientist who gave evidence in the case.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/feb/22/ukcrime.law
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #206 on: May 10, 2020, 01:18:13 PM »
I'm saying dna evidence presented at trial is done by way of statistical analysis based on the population at large which currently stands at around 7.5 billion.  Any mention of a trillion in this context is clearly nonsense. 

If a person's DNA is uploaded to a dna database and maintained and such a person subsequently commits a crime leaving biological material at the soc a dna match can be made.  At trial lawyers will present this evidence by way of stastical analysis eg a "billion to one" see the murder of Sally Bowman and conviction of Mark Dixie:

There was a one-in-a-billion chance it could have belonged to someone else," said Julie-Ann Cornelius, the senior forensic scientist who gave evidence in the case.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/feb/22/ukcrime.law
Why only one in a billion then, and not one in 7 billion?
Not a handwriting expert.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #207 on: May 10, 2020, 01:20:29 PM »

I’ve actually got the link somewhere...I’ll look later 🙄

I’m about to cook Sunday dinner so certainly shan't hunt for it now....zzzz

I’m sure you’ve read it yourself, anyway...you do this all the time when you don’t like a fact: you ask for proof. And if I do ever give proof you ignore it!

Well these all relate to JB's case so if you want to disagree you will need to provide the supporting material:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11431.msg589565#msg589565

If you resort to getting all shouty and personal making claims that you can't support when all the material is in the public domain I will remove it.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #208 on: May 10, 2020, 01:25:00 PM »
Why only one in a billion then, and not one in 7 billion?

Because statistically it is possible for two people to share the same dna.  Often it is presented by way of a % which is close to 100%.  In paternity testing it is presented as 99.9%.

Fingerprint evidence is actually more reliable than DNA as no two people share the same fingerprints not even identical twins.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #209 on: May 10, 2020, 01:28:10 PM »
Because statistically it is possible for two people to share the same dna.  Often it is presented by way of a % which is close to 100%.  In paternity testing it is presented as 99.9%.

Fingerprint evidence is actually more reliable than DNA as no two people share the same fingerprints not even identical twins.
So is there a one in one billion or seven billion chance of having the same DNA as another person?
Not a handwriting expert.