Author Topic: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?  (Read 26986 times)

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Offline Caroline

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #90 on: June 03, 2020, 09:30:51 PM »
Not me but that is what CAL wrote (about Jeremy being fine with it),  the rest is how I think peer pressure works.

CAL can only write what Jeremy told her about being adopted.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #91 on: June 04, 2020, 12:12:42 AM »

From a personal aspect, not one of my 'cousins' ever mentioned my adoption, although one poor little chap, sobbed inconsolably after we'd visited. It seems he was terrified his mother was going to give him away and he didn't want to be adopted.
In the Bamber case there were fortunes tied up and valuable family heirlooms at stake.  Was that the situation in your case?
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #92 on: June 04, 2020, 12:14:10 AM »
CAL can only write what Jeremy told her about being adopted.
To an extent that depends on how widely she interviewed the other relatives.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 12:32:01 AM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline APRIL

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #93 on: June 04, 2020, 08:19:14 AM »
In the Bamber case there were fortunes tied up and valuable family heirlooms at stake.  Was that the situation in your case?

I think the key here is "tied up". Whatever I'd done with my 'inheritance', a drop in the ocean compared with the Bamber fortune, it wouldn't have had an effect on the family, one way or another. I will add this, though. After my mother's death, I invited her nephews -who were beneficiaries in her will- to come and choose whatever they wanted as mementos.

Offline Caroline

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #94 on: June 04, 2020, 12:42:16 PM »
I think we have been abandoned for a suspect in the MM case  @)(++(*

Offline Robittybob1

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #95 on: June 04, 2020, 12:51:28 PM »
I think we have been abandoned for a suspect in the MM case  @)(++(*
I'm following both cases.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #96 on: June 04, 2020, 12:56:55 PM »
This point would require further research:  from http://youknowwhokilledyoudontyou.blogspot.com/2011/02/innocent-man-page-14.html from the book "The Innocent Man" by David Shaw Page 14
A TALE OF TWO GUNS

"The first thing we find when we examine the police evidence is amazing: the same gun could not have fired these two bullets. Different guns fired the two bullets into Sheila Caffell’s throat.

This goes entirely against the police case and on a practical level destroys almost everything the prosecution and judge claimed at Jeremy’s trial regarding the murders themselves.

The fact that two different guns were used to kill Sheila Caffell seems extraordinarily bizarre. Why would Sheila, if she suicided in the main bedroom, shoot herself with one gun and then select another gun to finish herself off? It’s equally ridiculous to suggest that Jeremy engineered such a scenario that his sister just assumed the ‘suicide position’ while he pumped one bullet into her throat, then discarded that weapon and went off to find another gun with which to fire the fatal shot.

Even more amazing is the fact that the family Anschutz rifle that lay across Sheila’s chest was not the gun that fired the fatal shot. The Anschutz rifle was responsible for inflicting the first, non-fatal wound (bullet PV/20). But there is no doubt that another rifle was used to inflict the fatal wound (bullet PV/19).

The Anschutz rifle did not have narrow grooves and consequently a series of wide lands would have been left upon the surface of any bullet fired from that rifle, as is evidenced from the bullets conclusively linked to this exhibit. Only one of the two bullets (PV/20 – non fatal bullet) fired into Sheila had the wider lands that matched those of the rifle PC Bird photographed on top of Sheila’s corpse. The other bullet (PV/19 - fatal) had narrow lands which meant that the barrel of the rifle which fired the fatal bullet (PV/19) must have had narrow grooves.

The Anschutz rifle simply could not have had narrow lands and wider lands at the same time. No gun can. It could not have had narrow grooves and wider grooves at the same time. Bullet PV/19 had narrow lands; PV/20 wider lands. It’s that simple. The two bullets fired into Sheila Caffell’s throat possess different ballistic characteristics.

The ballistic expert Malcolm Fletcher described the type of bullets he examined when looking at all 25 of the crime scene bullets given to him by Essex police. These ‘General Examination Records’ describe some of the bullets as 22 LR Bullets, others as .22 bullets and one as a bullet. No explanation was ever put forward as to why the same type of bullets were described differently like this. Why did the ballistic expert not describe all 25 crime scene bullets as all being .22 LR Bullets if that is what they were? The variation in the type of bullets he described suggests that a variety of different types of .22 bullets were used in the shootings, but the ballistic expert chose not to pursue this possibility.

Malcolm Fletcher examined the crime scene bullets to see whether or not the bullets had narrow or wide lands (N/L), how many lands and grooves each bullet had (L/G) and if there was a presence or not of rifling marks (R/M). The details the ballistic expert recorded for the two bullets fired into Sheila’s throat are as follows:

PV/20: weighing 1.5453 grams, did not have Narrow Lands upon its surface, but had the same number of lands and grooves as the (Anschutz) rifle and upon which was found corresponding rifling marks that matched those of control ammunition fired from the (Anschutz) rifle.

This information tells us that the Anschutz rifle that was photographed on top of Sheila’s body produced the precise characteristics upon all the bullets which were fired from it, and these characteristics explicitly match bullet PV/20. Other Anschutz-fired bullets are all consistent in their information and match the information garnered from PV/20 to a tee. So there is little dispute that bullet PV/20 was indeed fired form the Anschutz rifle found on Sheila’s chest as claimed. But PV/20 was not the bullet that killed Sheila Caffell. That was PV/19.

The recorded information for this bullet is equally clear:

PV/19: weighing 2.16 grams, only 3/4 lands and grooves upon its surface, it has narrow lands and there were no rifling marks found.

On every single factor – weight, lands, grooves and rifling marks, the two bullets found in Sheila do not align. It’s like looking at two utterly different fingerprints and being asked to believe they came from the same person.

PV/20 had eight lands and grooves upon its surface. PV/ 19 had a maximum of six lands and grooves upon its surface. No gun causes a different number of lands and grooves to be present upon two bullets from the same match of ammunition fired consecutively from it.

The police officers who digested this information were well aware that if the two bullets that wounded and killed Sheila Caffell had a different number of lands and grooves as well as significantly different weights and rifling marks upon their respective surfaces that the same gun could not have fired both bullets. So why was this elemental and fundamental truth suppressed? The police knew that it was a physical impossibility that the Anschutz rifle was solely responsible for all the murders at White House Farm, but they went to court and swore under oath that one gun, and one gun only, had fired all 25 rounds."
« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 08:16:02 PM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline John

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #97 on: June 04, 2020, 03:21:46 PM »
I found this paragraph quite poetic but it brought out the question as to what sort evidence would convince me Jeremy Bamber was guilty.

"Often in murder cases, the truth can hang before a detective as bright as a star when only one is shining in the sky; sometimes it’s like a very faint star in a sky full of brilliant constellations. There are occasions when the detective may get close enough to reach out with his hand to grasp it, only to find it slithering through his fingers. A good detective knows the real trick is to recognize the truth when he sees it. For many of the Essex detectives, the problem with the Bamber case was that all the thousands of pages of ‘facts’ the investigation had thus far compiled could not reveal one single piece of evidence, one instant or happening, that pointed clearly to the guilt of either Jeremy Bamber or Sheila Caffell. In this particular murder inquiry, it seemed that the truth was nothing more than a spinning coin."

I'm not only looking for evidence that was found but what would most likely be found had the case been examined forensically from the moment they entered.

Sometimes it only takes one piece of evidence but in cases like the White House Farm murders it is down to numerous pieces of evidence and an awareness that the real culprit can only be found by excluding all other suspects.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #98 on: June 04, 2020, 07:27:48 PM »
Sometimes it only takes one piece of evidence but in cases like the White House Farm murders it is down to numerous pieces of evidence and an awareness that the real culprit can only be found by excluding all other suspects.
But what has surprised me about the Bamber case is they don't really appear to have excluded all other suspects. 
First, it was 4 murders and one suicide.   Then it became if it wasn't Sheila it must be Jeremy.  OK if that was really the case that it had to one or the other then that would have been a fair choice, but I've yet to see that it was.

And if it was true what David Shaw has uncovered that there were two guns being used does that alter the picture.  Well yes, it does for the facts of the case doesn't appear to have been explained properly as yet.
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Offline APRIL

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #99 on: June 04, 2020, 07:46:31 PM »
But what has surprised me about the Bamber case is they don't really appear to have excluded all other suspects. 
First, it was 4 murders and one suicide.   Then it became if it wasn't Sheila it must be Jeremy.  OK if that was really the case that it had to one or the other then that would have been a fair choice, but I've yet to see that it was.

And if it was true what David Shaw has uncovered that there were two guns being used does that alter the picture.  Well yes, it does for the facts of the case doesn't appear to have been explained properly as yet.


Please don't keep referring to David Shaw -all you have to do is read through the thread Re Jeremy Bamber De Bunking Mr T's Theories.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #100 on: June 04, 2020, 08:00:12 PM »

Please don't keep referring to David Shaw -all you have to do is read through the thread Re Jeremy Bamber De Bunking Mr T's Theories.
Can you give the forum the exact name of the thread you are referring to?
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #101 on: June 04, 2020, 08:14:34 PM »
"So where was this second gun? How does it fit into the picture? Did the police record its existence? If so, why wasn’t it presented as evidence?

We know that at 7.15 a.m. on the morning of the tragedy, WPC Jeapes saw a rifle leaning against the main bedroom window inside the farmhouse (which from other testimony wasn’t there some hours earlier.) Jeapes recorded this sighting before armed police burst into the house sometime after 7.30 a.m. PC Bird then photographed this particular rifle (photo 23) leaning up against the same window as part of his duties as a crime scene photographer. This rifle, therefore, cannot have been the same rifle which the police say they found on top of Sheila’s body, also photographed by PC Bird. The police have never adequately explained the story behind this other rifle which was in the same room as the dead bodies of Sheila and June, and where the police suspected Nevill was shot and wounded a number of times. At Jeremy’s 1986 trial, PC Bird could not adequately explain how that rifle came to be leaning against the bedroom window."  From "An Innocent Man" by David Shaw
« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 08:16:39 PM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline APRIL

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #102 on: June 04, 2020, 08:18:31 PM »
Can you give the forum the exact name of the thread you are referring to?


Index Page 3. "Jeremy Bamber..........Debunking Mike Tesco's Strange Theories". It's a fascinating read.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=423.0
« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 08:26:11 PM by Robittybob1 »

Offline Robittybob1

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #103 on: June 04, 2020, 08:23:01 PM »
"Anyone who thinks Jeremy Bamber is guilty of murder should pay close attention now. Why would Essex police want a paint sample from underneath the mantelpiece in the kitchen on August 9 to match to a recovered exhibit responsible for that very scratch mark, when the silencer was not even found until at least the 10th of August by the relatives, and not handed to the police until August 12 1985?"

I'm having trouble believing what I'm reading.  Is this really true?
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Offline APRIL

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #104 on: June 04, 2020, 08:27:11 PM »
"Anyone who thinks Jeremy Bamber is guilty of murder should pay close attention now. Why would Essex police want a paint sample from underneath the mantelpiece in the kitchen on August 9 to match to a recovered exhibit responsible for that very scratch mark, when the silencer was not even found until at least the 10th of August by the relatives, and not handed to the police until August 12 1985?"

I'm having trouble believing what I'm reading.  Is this really true?


Depends who your source is.