Author Topic: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor  (Read 120532 times)

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icabodcrane

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Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #45 on: April 22, 2013, 11:12:29 PM »
I'll take a moment to recap here

When the cadaver dog alerts in the same locations as the blood dog,  it must be because  they are both alerting to the blood of a living human

When the cadavour dog alerts in a location where the blood dog did not,  it must be because he is  alerting to any number of things, other than a dead body

When it is only in the apartment where a missing child was last seen that this indiscriminate cadavour dog alerts, it must be because he has been 'cued'  by his owner

It all sounds desperately defensive to me

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #46 on: April 22, 2013, 11:17:18 PM »
Cadaverine and Putrescene are organic compounds produced by decaying human bodies. Eddie reacts to both and also to dried blood from a still living person. He does not need to smell all resultant compounds to alert. Blood itself gives off only a few of the many chemicals associated with human decay.
Yes but late Eddie didn't react to synthetic cadaverine according to MG, which turns dog's nose yet insubstitutable.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #47 on: April 22, 2013, 11:32:16 PM »
Icabodcrane, shall I congratulate you ? Yes and no..
Poor Eddie (I loved that dog, he had a sweet face, I felt sorry when he died) isn't going to convince any body who isn't convinced already..
That's why I suggested a reductio ad absurdum in another thread. Strangely enough nobody reacted... I wonder why.

debunker

  • Guest
Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #48 on: April 22, 2013, 11:53:21 PM »
I'll take a moment to recap here

When the cadaver dog alerts in the same locations as the blood dog,  it must be because  they are both alerting to the blood of a living human

When the cadavour dog alerts in a location where the blood dog did not,  it must be because he is  alerting to any number of things, other than a dead body

When it is only in the apartment where a missing child was last seen that this indiscriminate cadavour dog alerts, it must be because he has been 'cued'  by his owner

It all sounds desperately defensive to me

NO NO NO

If both dogs alert, it could be dried blood from a living or dead person. It could be cadaver odor and blood, but unless further forensics present, it cannot be assumed to be cadaverous because there is another possible answer.

When any dog alerts, there is a finite chance that the alert is an error. Most research suggests that 80-90% accuracy is the maximum achievable.

All dogs are able to alert to unconscious cuing. I have posted links to most of these research papers over the past two weeks.

My two favorites are the one where handlers were told that a room had scents that their dog would alert to, and even though the room was totally clean, many alerts occurred. The second one was where the handlers were told which rags had the odor and which did not. There were frequent alerts to the identified rags; none of them had any odor.

registrar

  • Guest
Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #49 on: April 23, 2013, 12:02:15 AM »
Debunker wrote:

'All dogs are able to alert to unconscious cuing. I have posted links to most of these research papers over the past two weeks.'

correct

and to conscious cuing.

icabodcrane

  • Guest
Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #50 on: April 23, 2013, 12:07:19 AM »
I'll take a moment to recap here

When the cadaver dog alerts in the same locations as the blood dog,  it must be because  they are both alerting to the blood of a living human

When the cadavour dog alerts in a location where the blood dog did not,  it must be because he is  alerting to any number of things, other than a dead body

When it is only in the apartment where a missing child was last seen that this indiscriminate cadavour dog alerts, it must be because he has been 'cued'  by his owner

It all sounds desperately defensive to me

NO NO NO

If both dogs alert, it could be dried blood from a living or dead person. It could be cadaver odor and blood, but unless further forensics present, it cannot be assumed to be cadaverous because there is another possible answer.

When any dog alerts, there is a finite chance that the alert is an error. Most research suggests that 80-90% accuracy is the maximum achievable.

All dogs are able to alert to unconscious cuing. I have posted links to most of these research papers over the past two weeks.

My two favorites are the one where handlers were told that a room had scents that their dog would alert to, and even though the room was totally clean, many alerts occurred. The second one was where the handlers were told which rags had the odor and which did not. There were frequent alerts to the identified rags; none of them had any odor.

Given all the research you have clearly done on the  'dog issue'  ( which is commendable )   ...  can I ask a straight forward question ?

What do you think the dogs were alerting to in apartment 5A  ?

I'm not asking you to commit yourelf to a single possibility ...  just asking what you think is the most likely possibility  ( based on all your research ) 


AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #51 on: April 23, 2013, 12:21:15 AM »
@ Debunker
Do you think if could affect stats if a dog alerted to cadaver (without any residue) in 3 points of the same area ?

Rachel Granada

  • Guest
Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #52 on: April 23, 2013, 12:24:55 AM »
I'll take a moment to recap here

When the cadaver dog alerts in the same locations as the blood dog,  it must be because  they are both alerting to the blood of a living human

When the cadavour dog alerts in a location where the blood dog did not,  it must be because he is  alerting to any number of things, other than a dead body

When it is only in the apartment where a missing child was last seen that this indiscriminate cadavour dog alerts, it must be because he has been 'cued'  by his owner

It all sounds desperately defensive to me

NO NO NO

If both dogs alert, it could be dried blood from a living or dead person. It could be cadaver odor and blood, but unless further forensics present, it cannot be assumed to be cadaverous because there is another possible answer.

When any dog alerts, there is a finite chance that the alert is an error. Most research suggests that 80-90% accuracy is the maximum achievable.

All dogs are able to alert to unconscious cuing. I have posted links to most of these research papers over the past two weeks.

My two favorites are the one where handlers were told that a room had scents that their dog would alert to, and even though the room was totally clean, many alerts occurred. The second one was where the handlers were told which rags had the odor and which did not. There were frequent alerts to the identified rags; none of them had any odor.

Given all the research you have clearly done on the  'dog issue'  ( which is commendable )   ...  can I ask a straight forward question ?

What do you think the dogs were alerting to in apartment 5A  ?

I'm not asking you to commit yourelf to a single possibility ...  just asking what you think is the most likely possibility  ( based on all your research )

Icabod - a good question.  But with the greatest of respect to you, there was nothing to back up any alerts.  Nada.  Zip.  Nothing.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #53 on: April 23, 2013, 12:32:47 AM »
When, in a hot summer night, you open your window and feel so good that you don't feel like going to bed, slowly but surely around 4 am a flavour invades your sitting room, a flavour of bread just being baked, how would you back this if you didn't know there's a baker a hundred meters away ?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 12:36:19 AM by AnneGuedes »

debunker

  • Guest
Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #54 on: April 23, 2013, 12:33:23 AM »

Given all the research you have clearly done on the  'dog issue'  ( which is commendable )   ...  can I ask a straight forward question ?

What do you think the dogs were alerting to in apartment 5A  ?

I'm not asking you to commit yourelf to a single possibility ...  just asking what you think is the most likely possibility  ( based on all your research )

Very few of the tests were actually able to indicate cadaver odour- that requires a positive from Eddie and a negative from Keela.

Dogs are liable to what are called serial errors. Supposing that Eddie showed a reaction that was subliminally rewarded by Mr Grime. This odor if encountered again has been rewarded and the dog is likely to react again.

As Mr Grime says again and again, dog alerts are meaningless unless corroborated by further forensics.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2013, 02:21:24 AM by John »

debunker

  • Guest
Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #55 on: April 23, 2013, 12:36:42 AM »
@ Debunker
Do you think if could affect stats if a dog alerted to cadaver (without any residue) in 3 points of the same area ?

We do not know that he alerted to cadaver. We know he alerted. The alerts could have been errors. Dogs are at best 80-90%correct. When two dogs are involved, this drips to 64-81%.

icabodcrane

  • Guest
Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #56 on: April 23, 2013, 12:38:05 AM »
Very few of the tests were actually able to indicate cadaver odor- that requires a positive from Eddie and a negative from Keela.

Dogs are liable to what are called serial errors. Supposing that Eddie showed a reaction that was subliminally rewarded by Mr Grime. This odor if encountered again has been rewarded and the dog is likely to react again.

As Mr Grime says again and again, dog alerts are meaningless unless corroborated by further forensics.

So what do you think the dogs were most likely to have been alerting to in apartment 5A ?

What is you personal opinion, based on the research you have done  ?

 
« Last Edit: April 24, 2013, 02:22:02 AM by John »

debunker

  • Guest
Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #57 on: April 23, 2013, 12:40:36 AM »

So what do you think the dogs were most likely to have been alerting to in apartment 5A ?

What is you personal opinion, based on the research you have done  ?

Either they could be straightforward errors, or they could be a serial error from mislearning of a scent particular to the McCann.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2013, 02:22:21 AM by John »

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #58 on: April 23, 2013, 12:44:16 AM »
@ Debunker
Do you think if could affect stats if a dog alerted to cadaver (without any residue) in 3 points of the same area ?

We do not know that he alerted to cadaver. We know he alerted. The alerts could have been errors. Dogs are at best 80-90%correct. When two dogs are involved, this drips to 64-81%.
You're right and I correct : if one EVRD alerts in three different points of the same area where a CSI blood dog has not alerted, how are stats affected ?

icabodcrane

  • Guest
Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #59 on: April 23, 2013, 12:49:22 AM »

Either they could be straightforward errors, or they could be a serial error from mislearning of a scent particular to the McCann.

What scent though  ?  they did  alert to  something  ...  what,  based on your research,  was it most likely to have been ? 
« Last Edit: April 24, 2013, 02:23:11 AM by John »