Author Topic: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor  (Read 120451 times)

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debunker

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Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #90 on: April 23, 2013, 01:26:33 PM »
When "normal human failure" of a professional is observed by another professional who nevertheless doesn't react, is it also "normal human failure" ?

All humans (and dogs) are fallible.

Failings of procedure are apparent from the videos and narratives.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #91 on: April 23, 2013, 01:35:03 PM »

But how was Eddie supposed to explain whether what he detected was the smell of a wholemeal loaf of bread, a croissant or a scone?
Hi Carana !
Eddie was working : kind of playing for him but a task with a beginning and an end and a reward whether he found the scent or not. Some handlers even use a special long trail as a signal for the dog that "the" task has started.
So I don't doubt Eddie was smelling the odour he's been trained to alert to. He was smelling or thought he was smelling ? Who knows if dogs can be abused by their memories ?

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #92 on: April 23, 2013, 01:50:52 PM »
When "normal human failure" of a professional is observed by another professional who nevertheless doesn't react, is it also "normal human failure" ?

All humans (and dogs) are fallible.

Failings of procedure are apparent from the videos and narratives.
Debunker, I admit, I always have, that I was perplex as well when I watched the garage video. Don't scream !
Then I read the reports but found nothing weird in them. Then I read a lot of articles about dog training and the relationship woven between handler and dog (I never had a dog, but I had a horse and thus an idea about the relationship human being-domestic animal). Then I spoke with some handlers (not professional) who explained to me how the dog, when picking up the scent will turn in circles using the wind to try to find where the scent is located and how the dog must be supported since he risks exhaustion. Then I discovered the Scenic was the 4th car inspected and that the watched video was an extract.
Well, unlike you, I decided to trust MH and MG, especially the first one because I found very impressive and serene the way he approached this case.
Also I thought that had this video shown some "normal human failure" it would have been destroyed. Policemen aren't supposed to be saints.

Offline Carana

Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #93 on: April 23, 2013, 02:12:48 PM »

But how was Eddie supposed to explain whether what he detected was the smell of a wholemeal loaf of bread, a croissant or a scone?
Hi Carana !
Eddie was working : kind of playing for him but a task with a beginning and an end and a reward whether he found the scent or not. Some handlers even use a special long trail as a signal for the dog that "the" task has started.
So I don't doubt Eddie was smelling the odour he's been trained to alert to. He was smelling or thought he was smelling ? Who knows if dogs can be abused by their memories ?


Hi Anne.

From what I can gather, these dogs had an affectionate "home" life when they were not working.

I presume that there must be some kind of signal to tell them when they were in work mode - otherwise they would be alerting to any minor incident at "home" which would make "home" life somewhat complicated.

My issue is that Eddie doesn't just react to the odour of a dead person, but also to other decomposing substances which could be totally irrelevant to the work task.

Would (e.g.) a bloodied bandaid from the foot of an occupant from a week or more prior to this inspection, perhaps removed during cleaning, or perhaps not swept from under a bed, have generated this response, or not?

Did they move the beds to check if anything innocent was underneath?
Did they turn over the mattresses to check?

ETA: Was a cleaning employee ever asked (who would have been responsible for the post-disappearance cleaning duties)?


« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 02:25:23 PM by Carana »

Offline Carana

Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #94 on: April 23, 2013, 02:16:41 PM »
You really must work on your English usage.
Debunker, you know as any one what it means when the argumento ad hominem pops up !

That is not ad hominem.

You misused an English word and distorted what I was saying. You pretended that I had accused people of dishonesty and you were wrong. I pointed out the error of your inference and argument.

DB, sometimes I get the impression that you assume that everyone has English as a mother tongue. That's not always the case.

icabodcrane

  • Guest
Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #95 on: April 23, 2013, 02:44:03 PM »

But how was Eddie supposed to explain whether what he detected was the smell of a wholemeal loaf of bread, a croissant or a scone?
Hi Carana !
Eddie was working : kind of playing for him but a task with a beginning and an end and a reward whether he found the scent or not. Some handlers even use a special long trail as a signal for the dog that "the" task has started.
So I don't doubt Eddie was smelling the odour he's been trained to alert to. He was smelling or thought he was smelling ? Who knows if dogs can be abused by their memories ?


Hi Anne.

From what I can gather, these dogs had an affectionate "home" life when they were not working.

I presume that there must be some kind of signal to tell them when they were in work mode - otherwise they would be alerting to any minor incident at "home" which would make "home" life somewhat complicated.

My issue is that Eddie doesn't just react to the odour of a dead person, but also to other decomposing substances which could be totally irrelevant to the work task.

Would (e.g.) a bloodied bandaid from the foot of an occupant from a week or more prior to this inspection, perhaps removed during cleaning, or perhaps not swept from under a bed, have generated this response, or not?

Did they move the beds to check if anything innocent was underneath?
Did they turn over the mattresses to check?

ETA: Was a cleaning employee ever asked (who would have been responsible for the post-disappearance cleaning duties)?

If it is the case that Eddie was as unreliable and indiscriminate in his alerts as has been suggested ( alerting to all sorts of things other  than cadaver scent  ... then how can it be be that he didn't bark ( alert ) in the other 9 apartments he was trailed though

In order to answer that question we have to ask another ...  what was  unique  to the McCann's apartment ?

...  and the bolo  punch answer is that a missing child was last seen there
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 02:46:28 PM by icabodcrane »

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #96 on: April 23, 2013, 02:49:32 PM »
You really must work on your English usage.
Debunker, you know as any one what it means when the argumento ad hominem pops up !

That is not ad hominem.

You misused an English word and distorted what I was saying. You pretended that I had accused people of dishonesty and you were wrong. I pointed out the error of your inference and argument.

DB, sometimes I get the impression that you assume that everyone has English as a mother tongue. That's not always the case.
Thanks, Carana, but it has nothing to do with language knowledge, "dishonesty" has equal semantic fields in English, Portuguese and French. I'm glad if Debunker believes the professionals involved in the dogs operation are honest persons. I only wish he would state it clearly.
Now I forgot to say that I don't believe Madeleine was carried in the Scenic. Contamination product ? He wasn't sent into the car... and we don't see Keela freezing in front of the car key.
This strange and imo implausible scenario might have originated from those frozen new-born (quite a few) coupled with the idea a body must have a sepulchre.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #97 on: April 23, 2013, 02:52:55 PM »

. then how can it be be that he didn't bark ( alert ) in the other 9 apartments he was trailed though

Not 9, Icabodcrane, only 4 (5B,5D,5H,4?).

icabodcrane

  • Guest
Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #98 on: April 23, 2013, 02:57:01 PM »

. then how can it be be that he didn't bark ( alert ) in the other 9 apartments he was trailed though

Not 9, Icabodcrane, only 4 (5B,5D,5H,4?).

thanks Anne  ...  was it 10 vehicles  ?

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #99 on: April 23, 2013, 03:07:05 PM »

. then how can it be be that he didn't bark ( alert ) in the other 9 apartments he was trailed though

Not 9, Icabodcrane, only 4 (5B,5D,5H,4?).

thanks Anne  ...  was it 10 vehicles  ?
It seems so !

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #100 on: April 23, 2013, 03:08:24 PM »

. then how can it be be that he didn't bark ( alert ) in the other 9 apartments he was trailed though

Not 9, Icabodcrane, only 4 (5B,5D,5H,4?).

It was 7 residences in total Anne

Apartments - Mccanns, Mccans second flat, Paynes, Oldfields, O'Briens
Murat's villa and Mccanns villa

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #101 on: April 23, 2013, 03:20:50 PM »

. then how can it be be that he didn't bark ( alert ) in the other 9 apartments he was trailed though

Not 9, Icabodcrane, only 4 (5B,5D,5H,4?).

It was 7 residences in total Anne

Apartments - Mccanns, Mccans second flat, Paynes, Oldfields, O'Briens
Murat's villa and Mccanns villa
Oh yes, Redblossom ! Unfortunately Eddie didn't visit Rothley's McCann house. It would have been interesting on the topic of contamination.

icabodcrane

  • Guest
Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #102 on: April 23, 2013, 03:23:45 PM »

. then how can it be be that he didn't bark ( alert ) in the other 9 apartments he was trailed though

Not 9, Icabodcrane, only 4 (5B,5D,5H,4?).

It was 7 residences in total Anne

Apartments - Mccanns, Mccans second flat, Paynes, Oldfields, O'Briens
Murat's villa and Mccanns villa

Thanks Redblossom  ...  and that's my stumbling block

These dogs are valued,  and they are  effective ...  we all know that really

We are asked to believe, though, that on this occasion their alerts were errors.  Scientific explanations are proffered and the fact that no conclusive  forensic evidence was gathered is presented as definitive proof that the dogs were wrong

OK then,  even though it is difficult to accept that the dogs were having an inexplicable 'off day'  when they were making nothing but  errors,  I can accept the possibility that they were

What I can not get past,  though, is the fact that all of these 'errors'  were made where the McCanns were concerned  ...  and no errors made where the McCanns were not concerned

I have seen no rational or believable explanation put forward to explain that  stark truth

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #103 on: April 23, 2013, 03:46:24 PM »
Well, Icabodcrane, some will argue, according to the same logic, that Eddie could have passed by cadaver scent in one or another residence.
Actually Martin Grime admits Eddie was capable of wrong negatives, I think he witnessed some. But he says never found Eddie making a wrong positive. Of course it doesn't mean that it never happened in case of immaterial residue.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 03:48:20 PM by AnneGuedes »

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor
« Reply #104 on: April 23, 2013, 03:47:46 PM »
In the full length garage film, the Scenic was in which checking position ?

Why does that matter. What maters is that Mr Grime knew which was the McCann's vehicle, called Eddie back nine times (compared with once OK r twice for other vehicles) and pressured Eddie to react, spending five times longer at that car before a reaction than with any other car.

Andthen all it showed was that there was blood in the vehicle- Gerry's blood was recovered from the key fob in the vehicle.
Which seems to imply Harrison, Grime and the PJ were dishonest (and fools as well since they filmed it). Are you a member of the police's police ?

Grime was heavily influenced by bias, not against the McCanns, but in favour of his either forthcoming or fledgling solo career, which paid dividends for him in the short run.  I'm less certain about the long run.

D'Lane's conviction for child abuse will stick and deservedly so.

But his conviction for murder?

We'll see!