Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor

[debunker]

But how was Eddie supposed to explain whether what he detected was the smell of a wholemeal loaf of bread, a croissant or a scone?

Hi Carana !
Eddie was working : kind of playing for him but a task with a beginning and an end and a reward whether he found the scent or not. Some handlers even use a special long trail as a signal for the dog that "the" task has started.
So I don't doubt Eddie was smelling the odour he's been trained to alert to. He was smelling or thought he was smelling ? Who knows if dogs can be abused by their memories ?

Aside from your opinion you have no reason to say that Eddie was smelling an odour. There is NO DOUBT that when properly tested, scent dogs of all kinds alert when there is no target substance present. A dog does not have the cognitive ability to "think he was smelling" something- that requires self-awareness and self-consciousness that animals of that order do not seem to possess. Dogs either alert or do not - they do not sit and ponder whether it is the right smell- it is a modified reflex, not a self-conscious complex intellectual considerationof the evidence.

[debunker]

When "normal human failure" of a professional is observed by another professional who nevertheless doesn't react, is it also "normal human failure" ?

All humans (and dogs) are fallible.

Failings of procedure are apparent from the videos and narratives.

Debunker, I admit, I always have, that I was perplex as well when I watched the garage video. Don't scream !
Then I read the reports but found nothing weird in them. Then I read a lot of articles about dog training and the relationship woven between handler and dog (I never had a dog, but I had a horse and thus an idea about the relationship human being-domestic animal). Then I spoke with some handlers (not professional) who explained to me how the dog, when picking up the scent will turn in circles using the wind to try to find where the scent is located and how the dog must be supported since he risks exhaustion. Then I discovered the Scenic was the 4th car inspected and that the watched video was an extract.
Well, unlike you, I decided to trust MH and MG, especially the first one because I found very impressive and serene the way he approached this case.
Also I thought that had this video shown some "normal human failure" it would have been destroyed. Policemen aren't supposed to be saints.

How do you acount for the demonstrable FACTS that Mr Grime makes Eddie return repeatedly to what he knows is the McCann's car, counting bothtime spent before passing on to the next car, and forcing him to return nine times when he ran on to the next car?

[Carana]

This strange and imo implausible scenario might have originated from those frozen new-born (quite a few) coupled with the idea a body must have a sepulchre.

What are you referring to, Anne?

[debunker]

But how was Eddie supposed to explain whether what he detected was the smell of a wholemeal loaf of bread, a croissant or a scone?

Hi Carana !
Eddie was working : kind of playing for him but a task with a beginning and an end and a reward whether he found the scent or not. Some handlers even use a special long trail as a signal for the dog that "the" task has started.
So I don't doubt Eddie was smelling the odour he's been trained to alert to. He was smelling or thought he was smelling ? Who knows if dogs can be abused by their memories ?

Hi Anne.

From what I can gather, these dogs had an affectionate "home" life when they were not working.

I presume that there must be some kind of signal to tell them when they were in work mode - otherwise they would be alerting to any minor incident at "home" which would make "home" life somewhat complicated.

My issue is that Eddie doesn't just react to the odour of a dead person, but also to other decomposing substances which could be totally irrelevant to the work task.

Would (e.g.) a bloodied bandaid from the foot of an occupant from a week or more prior to this inspection, perhaps removed during cleaning, or perhaps not swept from under a bed, have generated this response, or not?

Did they move the beds to check if anything innocent was underneath?
Did they turn over the mattresses to check?

ETA: Was a cleaning employee ever asked (who would have been responsible for the post-disappearance cleaning duties)?

Eddie alerts to dried blood from a currently living person. An alert from him alone NEVER indicates cadaver odor.

[ferryman]

It's interesting to make a comparison of how much time was spent in all the other apartments and how much time was spent in the places Madeleine was known to have been -- as well as those places Madeleine was known not to have been but the McCanns were known to have been (if you follow the distinction) ...

[debunker]

You really must work on your English usage.
Debunker, you know as any one what it means when the argumento ad hominem pops up !

That is not ad hominem.

You misused an English word and distorted what I was saying. You pretended that I had accused people of dishonesty and you were wrong. I pointed out the error of your inference and argument.

DB, sometimes I get the impression that you assume that everyone has English as a mother tongue. That's not always the case.

Whether someone is a native speaker or not, words must be used in the manner recognised by every one. I was accused of calling people dishonest when I had merely said they were mistaken. I am justified in pointing such errors of usage when they affect the argument.

[Carana]

It's interesting to make a comparison of how much time was spent in all the other apartments and how much time was spent in the places Madeleine was known to have been -- as well as those places Madeleine was known not to have been but the McCanns were known to have been (if you follow the distinction) ...

Well, yes, Ferryman. I was wondering about that as well.

In fact, I believe that I'd posted the relative inspection times a few days ago.

[debunker]

If it is the case that Eddie was as unreliable and indiscriminate in his alerts as has been suggested ( alerting to all sorts of things other  than cadaver scent  ... then how can it be be that he didn't bark ( alert ) in the other 9 apartments he was trailed though

In order to answer that question we have to ask another ...  what was  unique  to the McCann's apartment ?

...  and the bolo  punch answer is that a missing child was last seen there

Unconscious cuing and serial errors may account for this.

[icabodcrane]

Eddie alerts to dried blood from a currently living person. An alert from him alone NEVER indicates cadaver odor.

Do you mean Keela  ?  an alert from Eddie alone would most certainly be suggestive of cadavour odour  (  as with the alert he made to the first shelf in the McCann's wardrobe )

[debunker]

You really must work on your English usage.
Debunker, you know as any one what it means when the argumento ad hominem pops up !

That is not ad hominem.

You misused an English word and distorted what I was saying. You pretended that I had accused people of dishonesty and you were wrong. I pointed out the error of your inference and argument.

DB, sometimes I get the impression that you assume that everyone has English as a mother tongue. That's not always the case.

Thanks, Carana, but it has nothing to do with language knowledge, "dishonesty" has equal semantic fields in English, Portuguese and French. I'm glad if Debunker believes the professionals involved in the dogs operation are honest persons. I only wish he would state it clearly.
Now I forgot to say that I don't believe Madeleine was carried in the Scenic. Contamination product ? He wasn't sent into the car... and we don't see Keela freezing in front of the car key.
This strange and imo implausible scenario might have originated from those frozen new-born (quite a few) coupled with the idea a body must have a sepulchre.

I believe they are basically honest in their replies. I also believe that Mr Grime chooses his words carefully to remain within the rules of evidence at the same time as avoiding justified questions about the abilities of hisdogs. He does not lie but goes to great lengths to avoid unfortunate truths.

[debunker]

. then how can it be be that he didn't bark ( alert ) in the other 9 apartments he was trailed though

Not 9, Icabodcrane, only 4 (5B,5D,5H,4?).

It was 7 residences in total Anne

Apartments - Mccanns, Mccans second flat, Paynes, Oldfields, O'Briens
Murat's villa and Mccanns villa

Thanks Redblossom  ...  and that's my stumbling block

These dogs are valued,  and they are  effective ...  we all know that really

We are asked to believe, though, that on this occasion their alerts were errors.  Scientific explanations are proffered and the fact that no conclusive  forensic evidence was gathered is presented as definitive proof that the dogs were wrong

OK then,  even though it is difficult to accept that the dogs were having an inexplicable 'off day'  when they were making nothing but  errors,  I can accept the possibility that they were

What I can not get past,  though, is the fact that all of these 'errors'  were made where the McCanns were concerned  ...  and no errors made where the McCanns were not concerned

I have seen no rational or believable explanation put forward to explain that  stark truth

Unconscious handler cuing. Rational and possible.

[Carana]

You really must work on your English usage.
Debunker, you know as any one what it means when the argumento ad hominem pops up !

That is not ad hominem.

You misused an English word and distorted what I was saying. You pretended that I had accused people of dishonesty and you were wrong. I pointed out the error of your inference and argument.

DB, sometimes I get the impression that you assume that everyone has English as a mother tongue. That's not always the case.

Whether someone is a native speaker or not, words must be used in the manner recognised by every one. I was accused of calling people dishonest when I had merely said they were mistaken. I am justified in pointing such errors of usage when they affect the argument.

If English was good enough for Jesus...

I'm teasing you, but - seriously  - some people are trying to express themselves in what may be 3rd or 4th languages. It's not always easy.

[debunker]

Well, Icabodcrane, some will argue, according to the same logic, that Eddie could have passed by cadaver scent in one or another residence.
Actually Martin Grime admits Eddie was capable of wrong negatives, I think he witnessed some. But he says never found Eddie making a wrong positive. Of course it doesn't mean that it never happened in case of immaterial residue.

Mr Grime does NOT say that Eddie had never made a false positive.

If you assert that, please provide a cite.

This belief is an unsupported myth.

Over to you.....

[debunker]

Do you mean Keela  ?  an alert from Eddie alone would most certainly be suggestive of cadavour odour  (  as with the alert he made to the first shelf in the McCann's wardrobe )

NO NO NO.

ANn alert from Eddie tells you that EITHER blood (possibly from a currently living person) OR cadaver odor OR an error.

If Keela FAILS to alert in the same place as Eddie did, this narrows it down to either Cadaver odor OR an error.

[Carana]

Clear evidence, from the dog video and from the files, in two cases

- around the parents' bedroom wardrobe area
- clothing

No evidence from either the dog video or the police files (at least as far as I have seen or read) that Keela the blood dog was sent into the following areas where Eddie the cadaver dog alerted

- verandah outside the parents' bedroom
- flowerbed area outside the flat
- the soft toy

And a single alert is likely to be in error 10-20% of the time.

So when Eddie alerted at the McCann's wardrobe  ( where Keela did not )  we can say it was not blood,  but cadaver scent he was alerting to

...  and we can say there is an  80%/90%  chance that his alert was accurate

Is that correct  ?

I'm not into statistics, but why do people assume that he couldn't be alerting to the scent of other, irrelevant substances, perhaps with no physical trace, within the parameters of his training?