Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor

[Redblossom]

Thanks Redblossom  ...  and that's my stumbling block

These dogs are valued,  and they are  effective ...  we all know that really

We are asked to believe, though, that on this occasion their alerts were errors.  Scientific explanations are proffered and the fact that no conclusive  forensic evidence was gathered is presented as definitive proof that the dogs were wrong

OK then,  even though it is difficult to accept that the dogs were having an inexplicable 'off day'  when they were making nothing but  errors,  I can accept the possibility that they were

What I can not get past,  though, is the fact that all of these 'errors'  were made where the McCanns were concerned  ...  and no errors made where the McCanns were not concerned

I have seen no rational or believable explanation put forward to explain that  stark truth

It does appear to be a bit of a rubix cube conundrum, doesn't it.

[debunker]

Thanks Redblossom  ...  and that's my stumbling block

These dogs are valued,  and they are  effective ...  we all know that really

We are asked to believe, though, that on this occasion their alerts were errors.  Scientific explanations are proffered and the fact that no conclusive  forensic evidence was gathered is presented as definitive proof that the dogs were wrong 9

OK then,  even though it is difficult to accept that the dogs were having an inexplicable 'off day'  when they were making nothing but  errors,  I can accept the possibility that they were

What I can not get past,  though, is the fact that all of these 'errors'  were made where the McCanns were concerned  ...  and no errors made where the McCanns were not concerned

I have seen no rational or believable explanation put forward to explain that  stark truth

It does appear to be a bit of a rubix cube conundrum, doesn't it.

Only ifyou do not understand how truth is based on forensic or scientific methods.

[Carana]

But when inaccurate use of words clouds the argument, it needs to bepointed out in order to maintain the truth.

I understand that. But sometimes people come across as a bit harsh towards those who are doing their best to communicate in a foreign language.

[Redblossom]

Eddie alerts to dried blood from a currently living person. An alert from him alone NEVER indicates cadaver odor.

Oh really? Well watch this video starting from 1min15secs, and then say his alert was not to cadaver odour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmHdPGyQt2M&feature=youtube_gdata_player


You may also like to read Lenny Harper's comments about the testing of the dogs when deployed to Jersey.

http://voiceforchildren.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/exclusive-footage-of-eddie-cadaver-dog.html

00.0 Getting ready. I was reluctant to let the dog inside as I did not feel that it would do much good. In truth, I was a little sceptical – I had not felt a favourable impression from the handler (Martin Grimes) at our initial meeting and I was dubious, although my opinion of his qualities and integrity was to markedly change as events unfolded. I began to realise as I worked closely with him over a period of months that what I originally took as arrogance was simply supreme confidence in the ability of his dogs in the face of jealous, empire protecting rivals who were not as professionally capable. Throughout the investigation, we subjected Martin and his dogs to many ‘verifying’ tests, from burying swabs in sand (which he always found no matter how large an area), to minute blood stains. The dogs never failed.

[Redblossom]

It's interesting to make a comparison of how much time was spent in all the other apartments and how much time was spent in the places Madeleine was known to have been -- as well as those places Madeleine was known not to have been but the McCanns were known to have been (if you follow the distinction) ...

It's not as simple as that. If the dog showed interest and his behaviour changed,more time would be spent to find the source of the interest. This did not happen in the other apartments, nor the Mccanns villa for that matter. Mr Grime's video commentary says where there was interest and where there wasn't.

[Redblossom]

Thanks Redblossom  ...  and that's my stumbling block

These dogs are valued,  and they are  effective ...  we all know that really

We are asked to believe, though, that on this occasion their alerts were errors.  Scientific explanations are proffered and the fact that no conclusive  forensic evidence was gathered is presented as definitive proof that the dogs were wrong 9

OK then,  even though it is difficult to accept that the dogs were having an inexplicable 'off day'  when they were making nothing but  errors,  I can accept the possibility that they were

What I can not get past,  though, is the fact that all of these 'errors'  were made where the McCanns were concerned  ...  and no errors made where the McCanns were not concerned

I have seen no rational or believable explanation put forward to explain that  stark truth

It does appear to be a bit of a rubix cube conundrum, doesn't it.

Only ifyou do not understand how truth is based on forensic or scientific methods.

Bit of a sweeping statement there. Evidence and truth are not the same thing.

[AnneGuedes]

How do you acount for the demonstrable FACTS that Mr Grime makes Eddie return repeatedly to what he knows is the McCann's car, counting bothtime spent before passing on to the next car, and forcing him to return nine times when he ran on to the next car?

MG, who, as a good handler, knew Eddie, understood the dog had picked up something. He supported him. It's your right to be sceptic, but it is unfounded to suggest some kind of a trick.

[icabodcrane]

I don't think the 'unconcious handler cueing' is convincing or rational ...  not in this case

I'll give my reasons

It was of no benefit to Mr Grime to lead his dogs into giving false alerts  ...  their accuracy is what matters to him, Whether they accurately alert,  or accurately  non-alert is of equal value  to any investigation  (  the cueing accusation implies that his dogs are only of value when they do alert,  and that is simply not the case )

Getting on to specifics though

The first time Eddie, the cadavour dog is introduced to the investigation is when he is brought to the McCann's apartment.  Immediately,  still at the front door, Mr Grime notes a change in Eddie's demeanor  ... he is already in a state of excitement  (  with no cue from his handler )

Eddie enters the apartment first  ...  he is on a free search

He alerts in seperate locations.  There can be no question of Mr Grime 'cueing'  Eddie at this point because he  ( Mr Grime )  had no idea which  locations were significant

When Keela, the blood dog is brought in, Mr Grime already knows   which locations are significant  (  the shelf in the wardrobe and the area  behind the sofa )  and he specifically directs Keela to those locations  ...  cueing ?  ...  or simply taking  the logical and necessary steps to validate the alerts Eddie had already made ?

In any  event, Mr Grime pays great attention to the wardrobe where Eddie had already alerted.  He directs Keela to it, and has her jump up onto the first shelf  ...  he even lifts her  onto the second shelf

Now that might be interpretated as  'cueing'  by some,  but here's the thing ...  despite all that handler direction,  the dog did  not alert

When it came to the vehicles, it is quite logical that the McCann's car was the focus of the most thorough investigation  ...  both dogs had already alerted in the McCann's apartment afterall

Had the dogs alerted in Mr Murat's house, for instance, I have no doubt that his  car would have been the one the dogs were repeatedly brought back to  (  and quite rightly )

To present the explanation that the dogs alerted as they did, only because their handler  'cued'  them to, is entirely unsupportable and lacks reason   

[AnneGuedes]

This strange and imo implausible scenario might have originated from those frozen new-born (quite a few) coupled with the idea a body must have a sepulchre.

What are you referring to, Anne?

Carana, there have been, in France, for about 10 years, quite a few cases of mothers freezing their new born. The most "famous" is Veronique Courjault, she did it twice and confessed that, before, she had burnt a new born. Middle class, cultured lady, with a loving husband (engineer), two sons, many friends... Her sickness is difficult to understand. Loving being pregnant but fearing having to take care of another child ?
Those frozen babies were found by her husband in Saigon as she had gone back to France for the kids' holidays. He called the police. They did some tests and said those were his babies. He and everybody in France thought the Koreans were mad...

[ferryman]

 Immediately,  still at the front door, Mr Grime notes a change in Eddie's demeanor  ... he is already in a state of excitement  (  with no cue from his handler )

No Eddie sits patiently and waits for Grime to take off his lead ...

He doesn't show any particular excitement or interest at all ...

[Carana]

Eddie alerts to dried blood from a currently living person. An alert from him alone NEVER indicates cadaver odor.

Oh really? Well watch this video starting from 1min15secs, and then say his alert was not to cadaver odour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmHdPGyQt2M&feature=youtube_gdata_player


You may also like to read Lenny Harper's comments about the testing of the dogs when deployed to Jersey.

http://voiceforchildren.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/exclusive-footage-of-eddie-cadaver-dog.html

00.0 Getting ready. I was reluctant to let the dog inside as I did not feel that it would do much good. In truth, I was a little sceptical – I had not felt a favourable impression from the handler (Martin Grimes) at our initial meeting and I was dubious, although my opinion of his qualities and integrity was to markedly change as events unfolded. I began to realise as I worked closely with him over a period of months that what I originally took as arrogance was simply supreme confidence in the ability of his dogs in the face of jealous, empire protecting rivals who were not as professionally capable. Throughout the investigation, we subjected Martin and his dogs to many ‘verifying’ tests, from burying swabs in sand (which he always found no matter how large an area), to minute blood stains. The dogs never failed.

Eddie alerted to items of interest to the investigation, but he also alerted to items that were irrelevant.

From MG's Jersey report:

VT / 9 Trench and gun emplacement containing small personnel shelter. Forensic examination revealed recently deposited tissues that appeared to have been used to ‘clean up following sexual intercourse’. It would appear that the shelter had been used as a venue for courting couples. This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of the alert.

[Redblossom]

Some excellent points there Icabodcrane.

@Carana, do you have a link to Martin Grime's Jersey report? TIA

[ferryman]

Beyond doubt, it is appalling bad practice for any dog attending a crime scene to pick things in up in its mouth.

Also to trample all over stuff the dog is tasked to inspect.

And quite what Grime was playing at putting Eddie in a position where he had no trained response to indicate anything specific, I'm not sure ...

[Carana]

This strange and imo implausible scenario might have originated from those frozen new-born (quite a few) coupled with the idea a body must have a sepulchre.

What are you referring to, Anne?

Carana, there have been, in France, for about 10 years, quite a few cases of mothers freezing their new born. The most "famous" is Veronique Courjault, she did it twice and confessed that, before, she had burnt a new born. Middle class, cultured lady, with a loving husband (engineer), two sons, many friends... Her sickness is difficult to understand. Loving being pregnant but fearing having to take care of another child ?
Those frozen babies were found by her husband in Saigon as she had gone back to France for the kids' holidays. He called the police. They did some tests and said those were his babies. He and everybody in France thought the Koreans were mad...

Did you mean Seoul, as opposed to Saigon?. Yes, I'm aware of the case. Very sad.

I'm not sure of the relevance to a family taking their children on holiday though.

[Redblossom]

Beyond doubt, it is appalling bad practice for any dog attending a crime scene to pick things in up in its mouth.

Also to trample all over stuff the dog is tasked to inspect.

And quite what Grime was playing at putting Eddie in a position where he had no trained response to indicate anything specific, I'm not sure ...

Wouldn't that be for a seasoned dog handler using a single dog to know and not a layman?