Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor

[Redblossom]

This article also mentions Eddie being in th US
http://www.scentevidence.com/2009/07/dog-debate-at-center-of-murder-case.html

That is the Theressa Parker case after Grime was solo.

As police dogs, I don't believe Eddie and Keela ever worked together.

They did in pdl so where  does that  leave your post that they never worked together, they also worked together in Jersey

Unchallenged.

There is no evidence they worked together as police dogs.

What kind of poppycock is this?

Worked together in pdl and jersey, we know because both cases were public, we dont know about other casesbecause they were not, perhaps you can put forward what your argument is about them working or not working together and why it matters or not

OH BTW the south yorkshire police hosted a blog about the dogs, for kids, and init were instances where keela went to work with eddie, i know where to find it, you do the donkey work for yourself
 

[debunker]

My post at 5.17 this evening:

Also, I think Grime lied outright about Eddie's alleged training in America.

EIther you are confused or changing your story. You seemed to imply at one point that Grime never took Eddie to the States.

[ferryman]

There is confusion, certainly, but not on my part.

My next post made crystal clear what I was talking about:

In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs. 

1. Given that, and given, also, that we have a tried and trusted alternative method of training dogs using swine cadavers and swine cadaver scent, why would we indulge both the expense and hypocrisy of sending dogs to America to be trained in ways outlawed and deemed unethical here?

If we are going to indulge that expense and hypocrisy, why ever on a dog (at the time Eddie is supposed to have gone) about 18 months from retirement?

2.  An answer to an FOI question I have submitted cited parts from a personal development review for Grime which appeared to indicate the dog had received this training.  A report from the US that would confirm it was described as "pending"

I submitted a follow-up question asking whether this report was ever received.  They answered.  It never was.  As they put it, there is no information held.

3 In answer to a more general question about Eddie's training put by someone else, SYP said Eddie's training was (sic) in accordance with standard ACPO guidelines, which say nothing about sending dogs to America to be trained on human cadavers, because it is illegal here (etc) ...  A link was given to the ACPO dog training manual ...

Another discrepancy of Grime's is that he claims Eddie was involved in over 200 cases.

SYP say just 37.

Explain in what sense that leaves any room for doubt that I am talking about training in America?

[Redblossom]

until someone gives a logical explanation for the cadaver dog alerts i will never stop wondering, problem is, no one cant

[AnneGuedes]

until someone gives a logical explanation for the cadaver dog alerts i will never stop wondering, problem is, no one cant

Then it's going to be tough, thus not boring !
Redblossom, no one is so deaf as those who refuse to hear.
Il n'est pire sourd que celui qui ne veut pas entendre.

[registrar]

until someone gives a logical explanation for the cadaver dog alerts i will never stop wondering, problem is, no one cant

Ah you are after finality of reason - why didn't you say so earlier?

Alas, us armchair detectives know nothing at all about nowt but here are a few possible scenarios:

a) the dogs alerted to cadaverine and/or blood from Madeleine - the FSS just failed to back this up with pesky science

b) the dogs alerted to cadaverine and/or blood - because Grime&Levy knew a big pay day was heading their way
and primed McCann specific items accordingly

c)The dogs didn't alert to cadaverine and/or blood but the FSS was equally useless to spot this

d) the dogs were disorientated in a different climate - with different fauna and flora around them - they barked at owt that moved or didn't move - to get their treat

e) the handler's bearing/state of mind cued the dogs to react falsely

f) everyone's in on 'IT' Bilderberger/Masons/the Jesuits blah blah

I could go on and on with dozens of permutations of the above - but some of us have jobs to go to

[John]

Mods, I'm uncomfortably aware that discussion about Lee Rainbow has (again) taken this thread off-topic.

Would it be possible to hive off those posts about Lee Rainbow into a separate thread?

And again apologies.  I don't think I began the discussion but I was principally responsible for nurturing it.

Should have begun a new thread to continue an (interesting) meta-debate.

I will be more disciplined in future ...

I have given the Lee Rainbow related posts their own thread.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1356.msg38772#msg38772

[John]

In the full length garage film, the Scenic was in which checking position ?

Why does that matter. What maters is that Mr Grime knew which was the McCann's vehicle, called Eddie back nine times (compared with once OK r twice for other vehicles) and pressured Eddie to react, spending five times longer at that car before a reaction than with any other car.

Andthen all it showed was that there was blood in the vehicle- Gerry's blood was recovered from the key fob in the vehicle.

I found the whole cadaver dog exercise in the underground car park appalling.  The way he encouraged the dog back time and time again was pathetic. He actually called the dog away from another vehicle he was showing an interest in.

And as for doing alert tests in an apartment weeks after the disappearance when it had subsequently been rented out on no less than four occasions is bizarre.  What exactly were they hoping to establish for heavens sake?

[John]

This is true, and better said than I could.  Mr. Grime did most definitely spend much more time with the dogs on all things McCann.

Sort of defeats the whole purpose in having an unbiased test then.  A total shambles.

[John]

So who died half way up the wall, in the garage the cars were being checked in?
5 times Eddie ran away from Grime woofing at the wall.

Good point DCI,I wondered that myself? 8-)(--)

[Chinagirl]

I found the whole cadaver dog exercise in the underground car park appalling.  The way he encouraged the dog back time and time again was pathetic. He actually called the dog away from another vehicle he was showing an interest in.

And as for doing alert tests in an apartment weeks after the disappearance when it had subsequently been rented out on no less than four occasions is bizarre.  What exactly were they hoping to establish for heavens sake?

This is the most important comment in the entire thread.  The fact that the apartment in question had been re-let several times, and must have had any number of people traipsing through it - cleaners, workmen, agents, etc. in the months since it was used by the McCanns, and had not been preserved as a crime scene, renders any discussion about what the dogs alerted to completely pointless.  Both dogs may well have reacted to what they were trained for, but it is impossible to attach such alerts specifically to the McCanns, given any number of other people who had access to the apartment after them.

[Eleanor]

The whole thing looked as though they really weren't interested in anyone else at all.  And wasn't one of these videos on The Net long before The Files were released?  I seem to remember the dogs' reactions being discussed on The Mirror Forum before the Christmas of 2007.

[Carana]

Well, I can see that it was worth searching, but the dog is just an asset to help find physical evidence. If she HAD died in the vicinity, then it would have brought closure (whoever was responsible). But nothing was found.

I know that some won't agree, but I feel that too much importance has been placed on anecdotal evidence of occasions when it turned out that a dog had correctly alerted in the absence of any physical evidence. There may well be examples, but the odd instance doesn't justify the total belief that it is always the case (nor even that it is a frequent occurrence).

[Angelo222]

I found the whole cadaver dog exercise in the underground car park appalling.  The way he encouraged the dog back time and time again was pathetic. He actually called the dog away from another vehicle he was showing an interest in.

And as for doing alert tests in an apartment weeks after the disappearance when it had subsequently been rented out on no less than four occasions is bizarre.  What exactly were they hoping to establish for heavens sake?

This is the most important comment in the entire thread.  The fact that the apartment in question had been re-let several times, and must have had any number of people traipsing through it - cleaners, workmen, agents, etc. in the months since it was used by the McCanns, and had not been preserved as a crime scene, renders any discussion about what the dogs alerted to completely pointless.  Both dogs may well have reacted to what they were trained for, but it is impossible to attach such alerts specifically to the McCanns, given any number of other people who had access to the apartment after them.

Not only that but what about all the cops, forensics people and TV crews which had been in it as well since the McCann's left?  Do the Portuguese police know the meaning of the words "protecting the crime scene"??

[ferryman]

Well, I can see that it was worth searching, but the dog is just an asset to help find physical evidence. If she HAD died in the vicinity, then it would have brought closure (whoever was responsible). But nothing was found.

I know that some won't agree, but I feel that too much importance has been placed on anecdotal evidence of occasions when it turned out that a dog had correctly alerted in the absence of any physical evidence. There may well be examples, but the odd instance doesn't justify the total belief that it is always the case (nor even that it is a frequent occurrence).

Just to clarify, do you mean a search for a body, failing which (we know one wasn't found!) a discreet veil should have been drawn over the cadaver dog deployment exercise, and no more said about it?