Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor

[Carana]

Well, I can see that it was worth searching, but the dog is just an asset to help find physical evidence. If she HAD died in the vicinity, then it would have brought closure (whoever was responsible). But nothing was found.

I know that some won't agree, but I feel that too much importance has been placed on anecdotal evidence of occasions when it turned out that a dog had correctly alerted in the absence of any physical evidence. There may well be examples, but the odd instance doesn't justify the total belief that it is always the case (nor even that it is a frequent occurrence).

Just to clarify, do you mean a search for a body, failing which (we know one wasn't found!) a discreet veil should have been drawn over the cadaver dog deployment exercise, and no more said about it?

Hmm. Well 5 cases in which Eddie seems to have contributed without finding an actual body in situ.



But there's also this from Harrison's* report, which I've never understood (concerning Keela this time, not Eddie).

The most poignant being :
When 'Keela' was nine months old she was tasked to search an open fishing boat, contaminated by rotting fish flesh and BLOOD.
A missing person was believed to have killed on the boat.
The dog located and alerted to a blood sample that was so small that when LOW
COPY analysed was reported as being PRIMATE and an uncompleted sample.
There are only two scenarios to suit this find. The blood was either human or a gorilla went out in a boat fishing ! !

Should you require further examples or comments, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Mark Harrison



????

Why couldn't the blood be human but unrelated to the victim? People do nick fingers on fishing boats...


* ETA Correction: This anecdotal evidence seems to be from Grime's profile, not from Harrison, as I'd thought.

[debunker]

Well, I can see that it was worth searching, but the dog is just an asset to help find physical evidence. If she HAD died in the vicinity, then it would have brought closure (whoever was responsible). But nothing was found.

I know that some won't agree, but I feel that too much importance has been placed on anecdotal evidence of occasions when it turned out that a dog had correctly alerted in the absence of any physical evidence. There may well be examples, but the odd instance doesn't justify the total belief that it is always the case (nor even that it is a frequent occurrence).

Just to clarify, do you mean a search for a body, failing which (we know one wasn't found!) a discreet veil should have been drawn over the cadaver dog deployment exercise, and no more said about it?

Hmm. Well 5 cases in which Eddie seems to have contributed without finding an actual body in situ.



But there's also this from Harrison's report, which I've never understood (concerning Keela this time, not Eddie).

The most poignant being :
When 'Keela' was nine months old she was tasked to search an open fishing boat, contaminated by rotting fish flesh and BLOOD.
A missing person was believed to have killed on the boat.
The dog located and alerted to a blood sample that was so small that when LOW
COPY analysed was reported as being PRIMATE and an uncompleted sample.
There are only two scenarios to suit this find. The blood was either human or a gorilla went out in a boat fishing ! !

Quite!

Should you require further examples or comments, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Mark Harrison



????

Why couldn't the blood be human but unrelated to the victim? People do nick fingers on fishing boats...

[DCI]

I found the whole cadaver dog exercise in the underground car park appalling.  The way he encouraged the dog back time and time again was pathetic. He actually called the dog away from another vehicle he was showing an interest in.

And as for doing alert tests in an apartment weeks after the disappearance when it had subsequently been rented out on no less than four occasions is bizarre.  What exactly were they hoping to establish for heavens sake?

This is the most important comment in the entire thread.  The fact that the apartment in question had been re-let several times, and must have had any number of people traipsing through it - cleaners, workmen, agents, etc. in the months since it was used by the McCanns, and had not been preserved as a crime scene, renders any discussion about what the dogs alerted to completely pointless.  Both dogs may well have reacted to what they were trained for, but it is impossible to attach such alerts specifically to the McCanns, given any number of other people who had access to the apartment after them.

Not only that but what about all the cops, forensics people and TV crews which had been in it as well since the McCann's left?  Do the Portuguese police know the meaning of the words "protecting the crime scene"??

Nail on the head, Angelo.

Plus the four family's that hired the apartment, after the McCann's left it. So whats the point of any forensics, from 91 days on, after the abduction. None, Zilch, Nada!! All a waste of time and Grime.

[Redblossom]

If there was NO point sending in the dogs, then you are calling the British authorities fools as well as wasters of time and money. perhaps that includes Gerry Mccann as well who stated it was him would requested these dogs to be brought in.

The  other flats were relet as well, so that argument is not too strong. And if , as purported by some, Eddie alerts to all sorts of things, you would think he would alert to all these other things in any one of those other apartments, and Murats villa just as much, if any tom dick or harry could have rented them.

The only comment made today I think, and by Angelo, that furthers the argument that the cadaver dog issue couldbe problematic, is that flat 5a had loads of people trapsing in and out of it, from that night, before police were called, and later on.

[AnneGuedes]

The only comment made today I think, and by Angelo, that furthers the argument that the cadaver dog issue couldbe problematic, is that flat 5a had loads of people trapsing in and out of it, from that night, before police were called, and later on.

How ? Imo there weren't so many people entering the flat after the GNR arrived. Do you think one of these people could have "contaminated" the place through his/her clothes ?

[Redblossom]

The only comment made today I think, and by Angelo, that furthers the argument that the cadaver dog issue couldbe problematic, is that flat 5a had loads of people trapsing in and out of it, from that night, before police were called, and later on.

How ? Imo there weren't so many people entering the flat after the GNR arrived. Do you think one of these people could have "contaminated" the place through his/her clothes ?

There were, what, a dozen people in there on the night? Plus, I would imagine. Then again, what is there to say a dozen people were not in any of the other flats at any time before August 07 for them to be alert free.

[Lace]

If there was NO point sending in the dogs, then you are calling the British authorities fools as well as wasters of time and money. perhaps that includes Gerry Mccann as well who stated it was him would requested these dogs to be brought in.

The  other flats were relet as well, so that argument is not too strong. And if , as purported by some, Eddie alerts to all sorts of things, you would think he would alert to all these other things in any one of those other apartments, and Murats villa just as much, if any tom dick or harry could have rented them.

The only comment made today I think, and by Angelo, that furthers the argument that the cadaver dog issue couldbe problematic, is that flat 5a had loads of people trapsing in and out of it, from that night, before police were called, and later on.




Eddie alerts to blood as well as cadaver.     Do you think it is odd that he didn't alert to the scent of blood in any of the other apartments?

[debunker]

If there was NO point sending in the dogs, then you are calling the British authorities fools as well as wasters of time and money. perhaps that includes Gerry Mccann as well who stated it was him would requested these dogs to be brought in.

The  other flats were relet as well, so that argument is not too strong. And if , as purported by some, Eddie alerts to all sorts of things, you would think he would alert to all these other things in any one of those other apartments, and Murats villa just as much, if any tom dick or harry could have rented them.

The only comment made today I think, and by Angelo, that furthers the argument that the cadaver dog issue couldbe problematic, is that flat 5a had loads of people trapsing in and out of it, from that night, before police were called, and later on.




Eddie alerts to blood as well as cadaver.     Do you think it is odd that he didn't alert to the scent of blood in any of the other apartments?

Nor did Keela!

[ferryman]

Carana:

But there's also this from Harrison's report, which I've never understood (concerning Keela this time, not Eddie):

The most poignant being :
When 'Keela' was nine months old she was tasked to search an open fishing boat, contaminated by rotting fish flesh and BLOOD.
A missing person was believed to have killed on the boat.
The dog located and alerted to a blood sample that was so small that when LOW
COPY analysed was reported as being PRIMATE and an uncompleted sample.
There are only two scenarios to suit this find. The blood was either human or a gorilla went out in a boat fishing ! !
Should you require further examples or comments, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Mark Harrison

Now, here's a thing.  What's uploaded on line suggests Mark Harrison.

However, the original doesn't have his name ...

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2268.jpg

Beyond doubt it's in the section marked Grime's profile.

What's that all about?

[Redblossom]

The  thrust of that was about Keelas abilities and training and not directly about solving any missing person case.

[ferryman]

If there was NO point sending in the dogs, then you are calling the British authorities fools as well as wasters of time and money. perhaps that includes Gerry Mccann as well who stated it was him would requested these dogs to be brought in.

The  other flats were relet as well, so that argument is not too strong. And if , as purported by some, Eddie alerts to all sorts of things, you would think he would alert to all these other things in any one of those other apartments, and Murats villa just as much, if any tom dick or harry could have rented them.

The only comment made today I think, and by Angelo, that furthers the argument that the cadaver dog issue couldbe problematic, is that flat 5a had loads of people trapsing in and out of it, from that night, before police were called, and later on.

There would have been a point in sending Eddie: ruling out that there was a body to find.

But that was about it ...

[peter claridge]

The defence lawyer said that he wishes the arguido to be asked again if Madeleine bled. To which he said it was common for Madeleine to have nosebleeds. He says that he doesn’t know if in fact his daughter bled while on holiday in Portugal, because he does not want to be influenced by the news in the Press, regarding the detection of human blood in the apartment where his daughter disappeared.

[AnneGuedes]

The only comment made today I think, and by Angelo, that furthers the argument that the cadaver dog issue couldbe problematic, is that flat 5a had loads of people trapsing in and out of it, from that night, before police were called, and later on.

How ? Imo there weren't so many people entering the flat after the GNR arrived. Do you think one of these people could have "contaminated" the place through his/her clothes ?

There were, what, a dozen people in there on the night? Plus, I would imagine. Then again, what is there to say a dozen people were not in any of the other flats at any time before August 07 for them to be alert free.

Hi Redblossom !
After the GNR arrived, there was Silvia translating, Fiona, punctually David, Russell and Matt (?) but who else, except for the GNR officers and then their Lagos commandant and then the PJ and the SP. Oh and 1 (may be 2) dogs...
Surely the other flats were rented immediately on the 5th, hence had more visitors than the 5A.

[Eleanor]

The simple fact is that The Dogs produced nothing at all.  And certainly nothing fit to be used in a Court of Law.  A complete waste of time, in fact.  Except for Martin Grime.

[Lace]

If there was NO point sending in the dogs, then you are calling the British authorities fools as well as wasters of time and money. perhaps that includes Gerry Mccann as well who stated it was him would requested these dogs to be brought in.

The  other flats were relet as well, so that argument is not too strong. And if , as purported by some, Eddie alerts to all sorts of things, you would think he would alert to all these other things in any one of those other apartments, and Murats villa just as much, if any tom dick or harry could have rented them.

The only comment made today I think, and by Angelo, that furthers the argument that the cadaver dog issue couldbe problematic, is that flat 5a had loads of people trapsing in and out of it, from that night, before police were called, and later on.




Eddie alerts to blood as well as cadaver.     Do you think it is odd that he didn't alert to the scent of blood in any of the other apartments?

Nor did Keela!



So not one spot of blood was found in any other apartment,  or Murat's property,  by Eddie or Keela.

That is strange.