"Innocents Betrayed " by Sandra Lean

[Vertigo Swirl]

You have to ask yourself what impact charging Corrine and Shane with perverting the course of justice had on the jury even before the case got to court? How Shane’s evidence was impacted knowing that if he didn’t toe the line the police wanted him to he may go to prison himself? How the jury were impacted when Turnbull warned Corrine to tell the truth? Little tricks but hugely impactful. Why do you think L&Bs didn’t go ahead with the charges against Corrine and Shane? Could it be that they knew that they didn’t have the evidence to secure a conviction, knew the cases would never come to court but by the time the charges were dropped they’d served their purpose, that they’d destroyed the credibility of those who gave Luke an alibi?

Your second paragraph is simply the Crown’s case, every part of which was tainted in some way. Do you really think that they were going to deviate from it in any way unless they were forced kicking and screaming to do it? Are you aware of how many appeals of wrongfully convicted people fail before justice is latterly achieved?

Your last paragraph is just a hateful spittle flecked diatribe of the type I’ve come to expect here and your not worthy of further discussion.

”hateful spittle flecked diatribe” has become your new mantra hasn’t it?  Kind of ironic really, coming as it does from someone so well versed in same.

[Kenmair]

You have to ask yourself what impact charging Corrine and Shane with perverting the course of justice had on the jury even before the case got to court? How Shane’s evidence was impacted knowing that if he didn’t toe the line the police wanted him to he may go to prison himself? How the jury were impacted when Turnbull warned Corrine to tell the truth? Little tricks but hugely impactful. Why do you think L&Bs didn’t go ahead with the charges against Corrine and Shane? Could it be that they knew that they didn’t have the evidence to secure a conviction, knew the cases would never come to court but by the time the charges were dropped they’d served their purpose, that they’d destroyed the credibility of those who gave Luke an alibi?
Who knows - everyone's second guessing.

Your second paragraph is simply the Crown’s case, every part of which was tainted in some way. Do you really think that they were going to deviate from it in any way unless they were forced kicking and screaming to do it? Are you aware of how many appeals of wrongfully convicted people fail before justice is latterly achieved?
No I don't - how many? I would be astonished if LM is ever one of them.

Your last paragraph is just a hateful spittle flecked diatribe of the type I’ve come to expect here and your not worthy of further discussion.
Not hateful, just critical and are valid points that merit discussion and are ignored by LM defenders.

[Kenmair]

I’m surprised you didn’t point out to Faithlilly the wholly illogical reason she gave for believing in Mitchell’s innocence.   The reason she gave is in no way evidence of his innocence.  Perhaps you could ask her to try again to list all the evidence for innocence, as she has me on ignore?

I agree but sometimes you can't argue with such irrationality.

[faithlilly]

Not second guessing….applying logic.

TC Campbell and Joe Steele appealed 3 times, likewise the Birmingham Six and the Guildford Four twice. Do you see a pattern?

You are not making a point, you are expressing a personal opinion. An opinion that suggests that you are unable to judge the evidence dispassionately due to personal prejudice.

[faithlilly]

I agree but sometimes you can't argue with such irrationality.

Interesting that you see this as an argument. Perhaps that where the problem lies?

[Vertigo Swirl]

Interesting that you see this as an argument. Perhaps that where the problem lies?

Of course it’s an argument, that’s what you’re here for aren’t you?   If you weren’t you wouldn’t use such emotive terms as “hateful spittle-flecked diatribe”!

[Kenmair]

TC Campbell and Joe Steele appealed 3 times, likewise the Birmingham Six and the Guildford Four twice. Do you see a pattern?

No pattern whatsoever. One case overturned in Scotland in 30+ years - which was a gangland contract killing. The others were not in Scotland and were politically motivated, nothing like a young girl being murdered.

[Vertigo Swirl]

No pattern whatsoever. One case overturned in Scotland in 30+ years - which was a gangland contract killing. The others were not in Scotland and were politically motivated, nothing like a young girl being murdered.

Just because there are *some* miscarriages of justice it doesn't follow that every verdict handed down that one doesn't agree with is a miscarriage of justice.  One may as well point out all the appeals that failed where it has subsequently been proven beyond doubt that the guilty verdict was the correct one.

[faithlilly]

No pattern whatsoever. One case overturned in Scotland in 30+ years - which was a gangland contract killing. The others were not in Scotland and were politically motivated, nothing like a young girl being murdered.

We are talking about the number of appeals carried out before a conviction is overturned not the motivation for the crimes.

Interesting article on miscarriages of justice and the wrongful conviction of Stuart Gair.

From the article:

“ During his trial, when his co-accused initially said he did not know Gair and that the police gave him a story for the witness box, the Advocate Depute threatened him with a perjury charge and threw him in the cells over lunchtime.”


Sound familiar?

https://news.stv.tv/opinion/gair-case-showed-theres-no-such-thing-as-a-justice-system

[Kenmair]

We are talking about the number of appeals carried out before a conviction is overturned not the motivation for the crimes.

Interesting article on miscarriages of justice and the wrongful conviction of Stuart Gair.

From the article:

“ During his trial, when his co-accused initially said he did not know Gair and that the police gave him a story for the witness box, the Advocate Depute threatened him with a perjury charge and threw him in the cells over lunchtime.”


Sound familiar?

https://news.stv.tv/opinion/gair-case-showed-theres-no-such-thing-as-a-justice-system

OK, if you are talking about appeals, LM has had 3 including the SCCRC, nothing since 2014 with nothing seemingly in the pipeline suggests it is unlikely it will ever be appealed again unless Det. Forbes conjures up new evidence that is accepted.

It's a bit of a stretch to claim the Gair case mirrors LM, and that SM was threatened with perjury so he wouldn't tell the truth? I'm not sure the sentence he would have received but probably not much. If that was my brother I would have told the absolute truth if I'd seen him and campaigned alongside old Corinne for the past 18 years, but not a peep as he just wants a quiet life with his family who have never seen their uncle Luke. If you want a cite go to Broxburn Bing next Sunday and ask him if he thinks his brother's guilty. Case closed.

[faithlilly]

OK, if you are talking about appeals, LM has had 3 including the SCCRC, nothing since 2014 with nothing seemingly in the pipeline suggests it is unlikely it will ever be appealed again unless Det. Forbes conjures up new evidence that is accepted.

It's a bit of a stretch to claim the Gair case mirrors LM, and that SM was threatened with perjury so he wouldn't tell the truth? I'm not sure the sentence he would have received but probably not much. If that was my brother I would have told the absolute truth if I'd seen him and campaigned alongside old Corinne for the past 18 years, but not a peep as he just wants a quiet life with his family who have never seen their uncle Luke. If you want a cite go to Broxburn Bing next Sunday and ask him if he thinks his brother's guilty. Case closed.

Firstly let’s wait and see.

Secondly Shane was not only threatened with perjury but charged with perverting he course of justice, a crime that carries an average sentence of 3 years and of course all the impact being a convicted felon has on your future prospects. Of course you may have told the truth in court and so might I but then we haven’t been subjected to the kind of police intimidation that Shane was or indeed the press intrusion. As to the cite, Broxburn Bing really isn’t my kind of thing but I’m sure you’ll be able to provide the proof needed if your claim is to be taken seriously.

[Kenmair]

Firstly let’s wait and see.

Secondly Shane was not only threatened with perjury but charged with perverting he course of justice, a crime that carries an average sentence of 3 years and of course all the impact being a convicted felon has on your future prospects. Of course you may have told the truth in court and so might I but then we haven’t been subjected to the kind of police intimidation that Shane was or indeed the press intrusion. As to the cite, Broxburn Bing really isn’t my kind of thing but I’m sure you’ll be able to provide the proof needed if your claim is to be taken seriously.

We could wait and see or you could find out by the weekend what SM thinks. You don't need to take part and as long as you don't say you're friends with Sandra and pretend you like motos he should speak to you. I don't think he's going to provide a written statement so not sure how much more you want but believe Sandra's second hand versions as absolute truth.

It's not up to me to provide proof in a closed case - it's up to those who believe otherwise to offer credible alternatives without pointing the finger elsewhere and debate the evidence that got LM convicted.

[faithlilly]

We could wait and see or you could find out by the weekend what SM thinks. You don't need to take part and as long as you don't say you're friends with Sandra and pretend you like motos he should speak to you. I don't think he's going to provide a written statement so not sure how much more you want but believe Sandra's second hand versions as absolute truth.

It's not up to me to provide proof in a closed case - it's up to those who believe otherwise to offer credible alternatives without pointing the finger elsewhere and debate the evidence that got LM convicted.

Has Shane ever publicly denied any of the quotes from his statements or treatment by police included in Dr Lean's book?

[Kenmair]

Has Shane ever publicly denied any of the quotes from his statements or treatment by police included in Dr Lean's book?

SM has never spoken in public nor his father. I understand he has injunctions over CM & SL but cannot prove that but SL refuses to take questions on SM/PM. You could save yourself years of doubt if you actually spoke to him rather than pondering over what is in Sandra's book (I haven't read it....yet). BB this weekend if you really want the truth or continue believing abridged SL/CM's version.

[faithlilly]

SM has never spoken in public nor his father. I understand he has injunctions over CM & SL but cannot prove that but SL refuses to take questions on SM/PM. You could save yourself years of doubt if you actually spoke to him rather than pondering over what is in Sandra's book (I haven't read it....yet). BB this weekend if you really want the truth or continue believing abridged SL/CM's version.

Can I ask….is any of your information first hand?