Another view of dog evidence

[icabodcrane]

Apologies, I forgot to add the link and this board doesn't allow edits.  7th section marked by the dark blue band:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DOGS_INSPECTION.htm#p8p2186

Actual link added by John

ETA:

Cite from John Lowe's forensic report:

An incomplete, low-level DNA profile that matched corresponding components in the profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material present on the card key -  (286C/2007-CRL (12)).

Thank you ferryman,  for supporting your opinion with such well sourced evidence

[Carana]

Do listen to what Grime says. @ 3.50

The bit that starts: "Based on this information..."

Does he intend to send Eddie into the car, or not?

[debunker]

The heat is scorching on this thirtieth day of July 2007 when two Springer Spaniels, Eddie and Keela, get off the British Airways plane, accompanied by their trainer, Martin Grime. An air-conditioned vehicle is waiting to take them to their accommodation. A vet, who will be on hand during their stay, has been brought in to intervene in case of illness or if the dogs get bitten by a snake. Their mission: to find Madeleine's body and expose those responsible.

Eddie has been involved in a great number of cases, helping the police to resolve a good many riddles, thanks to his sense of smell. Even if the body has been moved, objects the body has touched have been contaminated by its odour, especially porous materials, fabrics, the upholstery in cars, etc. And that odour, Eddie knows how to recognise out of a thousand.

Keela, a scenes of crime specialist, is capable of locating particles of blood even after a place has been cleaned with chemical products or bleach. Sometimes, the residues are so microscopic they are missed by the instruments of the forensic police, as sophicticated as they
are, and it's impossible to harvest them without taking all of what they are on.

Eddie is always the first to be brought onto a site. Once he has discerned the odour that he knows so well, it's Keela's turn to go into action, on the lookout for the slightest whiff of blood. The simultaneous presence of the two elements in a given place - blood and cavaver odours - is taken to indicate that a body has been there and that it's probably there that the death occurred.

The dogs' CV is impressive. Besides collaborating in hundreds of investigations, they passed the practical tests brilliantly at the FBI's
"Body Farm," the only place in the world where human cadavers are used to simulate homicide scenarios and concealment of bodies.

Amongst the most media-covered cases, which they contributed to resolving, is that of the disappearance in Northern Ireland of Attracta Harron, who was last seen when she was returning home on foot, after having been to church. All searches carried out by the police were unsuccessful. The main suspect's car having been totally burnt out in a mysterious fire, couldn't be examined. They called in Eddie, who examined the charred remains of the vehicle and immediately picked out the characteristic odour. Human tissue was found amongst the debris, the DNA of which corresponded to the missing woman. Later, the dog indicated the place - close to a river - where the victim's


body had been abandoned. At the home of the suspect, where the police were searching for incriminating evidence, Eddie identified cadaver odour in one of the bedrooms. The man confessed to having killed the woman then moving her body to the banks of the river.

The case of Amanda Edwards, reported missing, is also very impressive. The police, who conducted a search of her ex-partner's home, found small bloodstains there, but no trace of a body. The dog, who was brought in for the examination of the man''s vehicle, alerted to
cadaver odour on the tools stored in the boot (a shovel, a level and a compactor). The police went to the building site where the suspect had worked a few days before and discovered the body, buried in a garage. The murderer had made efficient use of his tools to carry out his task.

It's also thanks to the help of the dogs that the case of Charlotte Pinkley, a missing British woman, who had been imprisoned by her ex-partner, was resolved. The police requested the help of the specialist dog team to try to find the young woman's body. Eddie picked out a place where the abductor had provisionally left his victim. In the surrounding area, the investigators found the button from a dress that
had belonged to Charlotte. That clue exposed the murderer, who ended up showing the police the place where he had hidden the body.

More recently, it's Eddie who helps to find a body buried under a flagstone at the former orphanage, Haut-de-la-Garenne, in Jersey, setting for a terrible case of paedophilia and child murder.

The achievements of the dog detectives are the result of a very long apprenticeship. It all starts with the selection of the best puppies when they are only a few months old. The most talented breed for this unusual "profession," is the Springer Spaniel. The trainer, Martin
Grime, and his pupils undergo aptitude tests every year in order to obtain certificates proving their capability. In Great Britain, the police have no hesitation in calling in the specialist dog teams to assist in certain criminal investigations. Their skills are nowadays recognised by journalists, police and courts all over the world.

I don't know t h e source of that but it is comple telly in error about dog alerts. Eddie alerts to blood.

[Carana]

@Debunker, that doesn't seem to be a verbatim report of that sequence.

[ferryman]

The heat is scorching on this thirtieth day of July 2007 when two Springer Spaniels, Eddie and Keela, get off the British Airways plane, accompanied by their trainer, Martin Grime. An air-conditioned vehicle is waiting to take them to their accommodation. A vet, who will be on hand during their stay, has been brought in to intervene in case of illness or if the dogs get bitten by a snake. Their mission: to find Madeleine's body and expose those responsible.

Eddie has been involved in a great number of cases, helping the police to resolve a good many riddles, thanks to his sense of smell. Even if the body has been moved, objects the body has touched have been contaminated by its odour, especially porous materials, fabrics, the upholstery in cars, etc. And that odour, Eddie knows how to recognise out of a thousand.

Keela, a scenes of crime specialist, is capable of locating particles of blood even after a place has been cleaned with chemical products or bleach. Sometimes, the residues are so microscopic they are missed by the instruments of the forensic police, as sophicticated as they
are, and it's impossible to harvest them without taking all of what they are on.

Eddie is always the first to be brought onto a site. Once he has discerned the odour that he knows so well, it's Keela's turn to go into action, on the lookout for the slightest whiff of blood. The simultaneous presence of the two elements in a given place - blood and cavaver odours - is taken to indicate that a body has been there and that it's probably there that the death occurred.

The dogs' CV is impressive. Besides collaborating in hundreds of investigations, they passed the practical tests brilliantly at the FBI's
"Body Farm," the only place in the world where human cadavers are used to simulate homicide scenarios and concealment of bodies.

Amongst the most media-covered cases, which they contributed to resolving, is that of the disappearance in Northern Ireland of Attracta Harron, who was last seen when she was returning home on foot, after having been to church. All searches carried out by the police were unsuccessful. The main suspect's car having been totally burnt out in a mysterious fire, couldn't be examined. They called in Eddie, who examined the charred remains of the vehicle and immediately picked out the characteristic odour. Human tissue was found amongst the debris, the DNA of which corresponded to the missing woman. Later, the dog indicated the place - close to a river - where the victim's


body had been abandoned. At the home of the suspect, where the police were searching for incriminating evidence, Eddie identified cadaver odour in one of the bedrooms. The man confessed to having killed the woman then moving her body to the banks of the river.

The case of Amanda Edwards, reported missing, is also very impressive. The police, who conducted a search of her ex-partner's home, found small bloodstains there, but no trace of a body. The dog, who was brought in for the examination of the man''s vehicle, alerted to
cadaver odour on the tools stored in the boot (a shovel, a level and a compactor). The police went to the building site where the suspect had worked a few days before and discovered the body, buried in a garage. The murderer had made efficient use of his tools to carry out his task.

It's also thanks to the help of the dogs that the case of Charlotte Pinkley, a missing British woman, who had been imprisoned by her ex-partner, was resolved. The police requested the help of the specialist dog team to try to find the young woman's body. Eddie picked out a place where the abductor had provisionally left his victim. In the surrounding area, the investigators found the button from a dress that
had belonged to Charlotte. That clue exposed the murderer, who ended up showing the police the place where he had hidden the body.

More recently, it's Eddie who helps to find a body buried under a flagstone at the former orphanage, Haut-de-la-Garenne, in Jersey, setting for a terrible case of paedophilia and child murder.

The achievements of the dog detectives are the result of a very long apprenticeship. It all starts with the selection of the best puppies when they are only a few months old. The most talented breed for this unusual "profession," is the Springer Spaniel. The trainer, Martin
Grime, and his pupils undergo aptitude tests every year in order to obtain certificates proving their capability. In Great Britain, the police have no hesitation in calling in the specialist dog teams to assist in certain criminal investigations. Their skills are nowadays recognised by journalists, police and courts all over the world.

I don't know t h e source of that but it is comple telly in error about dog alerts. Eddie alerts to blood.

The source is Amaral's book ...

[John]

Does anyone know how Martin Grimes squares the fact that cadaverine comes from any decomposing human material and not just a corpse?

I have also read that cadaverine is partially responsible for the distinctive odours in urine.

[Eleanor]

Does anyone know how Martin Grimes squares the fact that cadaverine comes from any decomposing human material and not just a corpse?

I have also read that cadaverine is partially responsible for the distinctive odours in urine.

Martin Grime doesn't appear to have mentioned these other things.  Cadaver Dogs also alert to Semen, but perhaps his sensibilities forbade him.  There was a time when I had some difficulty in mentioning this, but I have become a little less sensitive of late.
Cadaver dogs will alert to all decomposing body fluids from live people.  And all body fluids decompose after they have left a body, dead or alive.
Cadaver Dogs are only any good at finding a Cadaver when there actually is one.

[debunker]

Does anyone know how Martin Grimes squares the fact that cadaverine comes from any decomposing human material and not just a corpse?

I have also read that cadaverine is partially responsible for the distinctive odours in urine.

Martin Grime is totally aware of that. He is aware of many things which he avoids mentioning or skirts around or uses diverting language.

He knows:

1/ Dog alerts are not exact- they have false positive and false negative errors.
2/ Dogs may engage in serial errors
3/ Dogs may be consciously and unconsciously cued
4/ Eddie was trained on Pork and although desensitised, may still revert
5/ Eddie reacts to any object that has been in contact with decomposing human soft tissue or bodily fluids including blood, extracted teeth, suppurating wound debris, semen, menstrual flow, infected vaginal secretions, infected phlegm or nasal secretions, and so on.
6/ Eddie has made multiple alerts, confirmed as cadaver odor alerts by Keela's reaction, that have resulted inthediscovery of no cadaverous source.
7/ His methods of describing the efficacy of the dogs is statistically flawed.
8/ Requiringtwo separate alerts to confirm cadaver indication squares the uncertainty- 90% becomes 80% , 80% becomes 64%, 70% becomes 50%, 60% becomes 35%, 50% becomes 25% accuracy.

[AnneGuedes]

Does anyone know how Martin Grimes squares the fact that cadaverine comes from any decomposing human material and not just a corpse?

I have also read that cadaverine is partially responsible for the distinctive odours in urine.

Martin Grime is totally aware of that. He is aware of many things which he avoids mentioning or skirts around or uses diverting language.

He knows:

1/ Dog alerts are not exact- they have false positive and false negative errors.
2/ Dogs may engage in serial errors
3/ Dogs may be consciously and unconsciously cued
4/ Eddie was trained on Pork and although desensitised, may still revert
5/ Eddie reacts to any object that has been in contact with decomposing human soft tissue or bodily fluids including blood, extracted teeth, suppurating wound debris, semen, menstrual flow, infected vaginal secretions, infected phlegm or nasal secretions, and so on.
6/ Eddie has made multiple alerts, confirmed as cadaver odor alerts by Keela's reaction, that have resulted inthediscovery of no cadaverous source.
7/ His methods of describing the efficacy of the dogs is statistically flawed.
8/ Requiringtwo separate alerts to confirm cadaver indication squares the uncertainty- 90% becomes 80% , 80% becomes 64%, 70% becomes 50%, 60% becomes 35%, 50% becomes 25% accuracy.

Supposing all this is right, how could be explained that Eddie didn't react in the G5B, G5D, G5H ?

[debunker]

Does anyone know how Martin Grimes squares the fact that cadaverine comes from any decomposing human material and not just a corpse?

I have also read that cadaverine is partially responsible for the distinctive odours in urine.

Martin Grime is totally aware of that. He is aware of many things which he avoids mentioning or skirts around or uses diverting language.

He knows:


1/ Dog alerts are not exact- they have false positive and false negative errors.
2/ Dogs may engage in serial errors
3/ Dogs may be consciously and unconsciously cued
4/ Eddie was trained on Pork and although desensitised, may still revert


5/ Eddie reacts to any object that has been in contact with decomposing human soft tissue or bodily fluids including blood, extracted teeth, suppurating wound debris, semen, menstrual flow, infected vaginal secretions, infected phlegm or nasal secretions, and so on.
6/ Eddie has made multiple alerts, confirmed as cadaver odor alerts by Keela's reaction, that have resulted inthediscovery of no cadaverous source.
7/ His methods of describing the efficacy of the dogs is statistically flawed.


8/ Requiringtwo separate alerts to confirm cadaver indication squares the uncertainty- 90% becomes 80% , 80% becomes 64%, 70% becomes 50%, 60% becomes 35%, 50% becomes 25% accuracy.

Supposing all this is right, how could be explained that Eddie didn't react in the G5B, G5D, G5H ?

Dogs make positive and negative errors and are susceptible to human cuing and serial errors.

[Rachel Granada]

The fact remains ...  and will always remain ...  that a cadaver dog alerted in the apartment where a missing child was last seen

You can bone up  ( pardon the pun )  on dogs  ...  you can start endless threads relentlessly presenting  alternative explanations  ...  or denigrating the dogs' abilities generally  ...  or the handler's professionalism ...  or the questionability of the dogs usefulness at all 

And still,  the fact remains ... and will always remain ...  that a cadaver dog alerted in the apartment where a missing child was last seen

You can,  "yeah but ... no but ... yeah but"  forevermore

The fact remains  ...  and will always remain ...  that a cadaver dog alerted in the apartment where a missing child was last seen

There is simply no getting around that stark reality and  the most obvious and logical conclusion to draw from it

Hi, icabodcrane.  Am I correct in thinking that apt 5a was re-let several times before Eddie and Keela were deployed?

[DCI]

The fact remains ...  and will always remain ...  that a cadaver dog alerted in the apartment where a missing child was last seen

You can bone up  ( pardon the pun )  on dogs  ...  you can start endless threads relentlessly presenting  alternative explanations  ...  or denigrating the dogs' abilities generally  ...  or the handler's professionalism ...  or the questionability of the dogs usefulness at all 

And still,  the fact remains ... and will always remain ...  that a cadaver dog alerted in the apartment where a missing child was last seen

You can,  "yeah but ... no but ... yeah but"  forevermore

The fact remains  ...  and will always remain ...  that a cadaver dog alerted in the apartment where a missing child was last seen

There is simply no getting around that stark reality and  the most obvious and logical conclusion to draw from it

Hi, icabodcrane.  Am I correct in thinking that apt 5a was re-let several times before Eddie and Keela were deployed?

The PJ sealed off the apartment and checked it thoroughly. They then deemed it clear and allowed the owners to rent it out to no less than 4 different families.

One of the things that Amaral and others have always complained about, is that the apartment had been contaminated from day one.

Why then after 4 different families had used the apartment, did he see fit to, once more seal off the apartment, and then bring in sniffer dogs, not only that but British sniffer dogs.

Here was a man who having refused British help, suddenly wanted them on the scene.

Surely his own experts would have told him that it was too long after the event to use dogs with any reliability? They must have told him that the sniffer dogs should have been used early on in the investigation?

So why did he think the dogs would find anything after the apartment had been used so much and cleaned many times?

[Chinagirl]

@ DCI:

The PJ sealed off the apartment and checked it thoroughly. They then deemed it clear and allowed the owners to rent it out to no less than 4 different families.

One of the things that Amaral and others have always complained about, is that the apartment had been contaminated from day one.

Why then after 4 different families had used the apartment, did he see fit to, once more seal off the apartment, and then bring in sniffer dogs, not only that but British sniffer dogs.

Here was a man who having refused British help, suddenly wanted them on the scene.

Surely his own experts would have told him that it was too long after the event to use dogs with any reliability? They must have told him that the sniffer dogs should have been used early on in the investigation?

So why did he think the dogs would find anything after the apartment had been used so much and cleaned many times?

These are excellent points which are usually overlooked in any discussion about the dogs.

[AnneGuedes]

Does anyone know how Martin Grimes squares the fact that cadaverine comes from any decomposing human material and not just a corpse?

I have also read that cadaverine is partially responsible for the distinctive odours in urine.

Martin Grime is totally aware of that. He is aware of many things which he avoids mentioning or skirts around or uses diverting language.

He knows:


1/ Dog alerts are not exact- they have false positive and false negative errors.
2/ Dogs may engage in serial errors
3/ Dogs may be consciously and unconsciously cued
4/ Eddie was trained on Pork and although desensitised, may still revert


5/ Eddie reacts to any object that has been in contact with decomposing human soft tissue or bodily fluids including blood, extracted teeth, suppurating wound debris, semen, menstrual flow, infected vaginal secretions, infected phlegm or nasal secretions, and so on.
6/ Eddie has made multiple alerts, confirmed as cadaver odor alerts by Keela's reaction, that have resulted inthediscovery of no cadaverous source.
7/ His methods of describing the efficacy of the dogs is statistically flawed.


8/ Requiringtwo separate alerts to confirm cadaver indication squares the uncertainty- 90% becomes 80% , 80% becomes 64%, 70% becomes 50%, 60% becomes 35%, 50% becomes 25% accuracy.

Supposing all this is right, how could be explained that Eddie didn't react in the G5B, G5D, G5H ?

Dogs make positive and negative errors and are susceptible to human cuing and serial errors.

Right, but what do you do with probabilities laws ?

[AnneGuedes]

The fact remains ...  and will always remain ...  that a cadaver dog alerted in the apartment where a missing child was last seen

You can bone up  ( pardon the pun )  on dogs  ...  you can start endless threads relentlessly presenting  alternative explanations  ...  or denigrating the dogs' abilities generally  ...  or the handler's professionalism ...  or the questionability of the dogs usefulness at all 

And still,  the fact remains ... and will always remain ...  that a cadaver dog alerted in the apartment where a missing child was last seen

You can,  "yeah but ... no but ... yeah but"  forevermore

The fact remains  ...  and will always remain ...  that a cadaver dog alerted in the apartment where a missing child was last seen

There is simply no getting around that stark reality and  the most obvious and logical conclusion to draw from it

Hi, icabodcrane.  Am I correct in thinking that apt 5a was re-let several times before Eddie and Keela were deployed?

The PJ sealed off the apartment and checked it thoroughly. They then deemed it clear and allowed the owners to rent it out to no less than 4 different families.

One of the things that Amaral and others have always complained about, is that the apartment had been contaminated from day one.

Why then after 4 different families had used the apartment, did he see fit to, once more seal off the apartment, and then bring in sniffer dogs, not only that but British sniffer dogs.

Here was a man who having refused British help, suddenly wanted them on the scene.

Surely his own experts would have told him that it was too long after the event to use dogs with any reliability? They must have told him that the sniffer dogs should have been used early on in the investigation?

So why did he think the dogs would find anything after the apartment had been used so much and cleaned many times?

Do you doubt Mark Harrison expertise ? He was the one who advised to bring the dogs.