What's Significant About LM Finding J J?

[Nicholas]

Again, I would come back to the apparently very heavy rainfall that night.

Do you think the rainfall removed all traces of blood from the bottoms of killer Luke Mitchell’s boots after he’d climbed over the wall when he was with the search party?

[Parky41]

Do you think the rainfall removed all traces of blood from the bottoms of killer Luke Mitchell’s boots after he’d climbed over the wall when he was with the search party?

Nothing we hear that was found? - But then the contention would be there was not as LM only walked a few feet on the inside of the wall. He had not went close enough to even see what he later claimed. If he had however picked anything up, it would have simply been down to presence then. We know the shoes were taken of the others that day and jackets. People are somewhat confused, deliberately so - LM was not forensically tested upon himself that evening as being the murderer - He had samples taken for elimination as with the clothing. A clipping of hair does not equate to there being nothing at all upon him. - All that could be determined is there were no assault marks, scratches or bruises - but we know with certainty that this girl had nothing upon her of her attacker. Her wounds were of defence, of shielding blow not of attack.

[Parky41]

On the basis that I'm questioning footprints/tyre tracks or lack of on the side of the wall J J was found ie in the immediate vicininty.

The problem is it not? As even those who have read the book (with sense), point out the actual relevant areas that are missing - in place we have half a book on waffle around others. I mean all those fantastic pages on forensics (not) to repeat "no reportable result" - attempting to make this something, when in short, it meant nothing to do with the murder, the killer.

This fingertip search, of course they did. Does one imagine they just had a couple of people walking about attempting to spot anything? It was swarming with forensic teams along with police shoulder to shoulder in the woods and surrounding fields. What they did pick up with equipment and all else was where the attack began and ended. The tiniest droplets of blood upon branches and so forth. Determined this happened from NW to SW. Does not matter the authors ludicrous suggestions of bleaching scenes in one direction - poppycock. They were bleaching the locus as they do with every crime scene at some point. Cleansing the area before opening it back up for public use. Not that they needed the dogs to go one way only! They are not going to go any way unless something to go with and they did - into the woodland on the opposite side of Newbattle Road. The gate side where Mitchell was spotted by F&W. The trail turning cold. The river not further into the woods itself.

These droplets of blood into something more substantial at the actual area where death occurred. Again we enter the ludicrous when the author wants the reader to concentrate on litres of blood, as she did with her silly wine test! As you do? As with having a murderer dripping in blood running down roads - simply not real is it, a false picture. How does one measure density upon a wall? The porous soil and whatever the rain may have diluted and washed further into it. Using this to infer that the murder could have happened elsewhere! - to then have people come along and ask question about vehicular access:

One would ask of course when they envision the person being carted there and off again to meet her death elsewhere, somewhere with litres of blood present!  But of footprints where you can bet with certainty that every effort would have been made to determine any, if there is nothing clear then nothing was found. What we do have of course is those blood trails heading west by foot, clear enough to take prints? Simply remnants/trace from what may have survived the rainfall.

So no car can access the area, path or woodland - Well it could of course have entered into the field and stood out like a sore thumb! From Lady Path but not from the Newbattle Road end.  Interestingly there was the maroon Frontera parked up at the entrance. Same make and model as CM's. Also the yellow bike at the school railings at the rear end. Exact type/colour again as that of Mitchells which by some fluke also happened to just disappear! These modes of transport spotted, certainly no car driving across an expansive field or likewise. Which would have left tyre trails - there was none.

So the moped! Again the ground being tested for any pick up of blood trails and certainly none from this bike - but there would not be of course for there was no bike in this strip of woodland and no boys either! This nonsense talk of getting rid of the bike before it could be tested! Again we have to revert back to the Mitchells - the Frontera, the bike at the railings and talk of disposal via a scrap merchant - SM his profession and not being home when he stated he was! Reason given when found out, that he just simply went to fuel the car up around 8 miles from home?

[Nicholas]

Again we enter the ludicrous when the author wants the reader to concentrate on litres of blood, as she did with her silly wine test! As you do? As with having a murderer dripping in blood running down roads - simply not real is it, a false picture.

That really was something else 

Here ➡️ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YCCys8S-c2A for anyone who may be interested

 

[Holly Goodhead]

The problem is it not? As even those who have read the book (with sense), point out the actual relevant areas that are missing - in place we have half a book on waffle around others. I mean all those fantastic pages on forensics (not) to repeat "no reportable result" - attempting to make this something, when in short, it meant nothing to do with the murder, the killer.

This fingertip search, of course they did. Does one imagine they just had a couple of people walking about attempting to spot anything? It was swarming with forensic teams along with police shoulder to shoulder in the woods and surrounding fields. What they did pick up with equipment and all else was where the attack began and ended. The tiniest droplets of blood upon branches and so forth. Determined this happened from NW to SW. Does not matter the authors ludicrous suggestions of bleaching scenes in one direction - poppycock. They were bleaching the locus as they do with every crime scene at some point. Cleansing the area before opening it back up for public use. Not that they needed the dogs to go one way only! They are not going to go any way unless something to go with and they did - into the woodland on the opposite side of Newbattle Road. The gate side where Mitchell was spotted by F&W. The trail turning cold. The river not further into the woods itself.

These droplets of blood into something more substantial at the actual area where death occurred. Again we enter the ludicrous when the author wants the reader to concentrate on litres of blood, as she did with her silly wine test! As you do? As with having a murderer dripping in blood running down roads - simply not real is it, a false picture. How does one measure density upon a wall? The porous soil and whatever the rain may have diluted and washed further into it. Using this to infer that the murder could have happened elsewhere! - to then have people come along and ask question about vehicular access:

One would ask of course when they envision the person being carted there and off again to meet her death elsewhere, somewhere with litres of blood present!  But of footprints where you can bet with certainty that every effort would have been made to determine any, if there is nothing clear then nothing was found. What we do have of course is those blood trails heading west by foot, clear enough to take prints? Simply remnants/trace from what may have survived the rainfall.

So no car can access the area, path or woodland - Well it could of course have entered into the field and stood out like a sore thumb! From Lady Path but not from the Newbattle Road end.  Interestingly there was the maroon Frontera parked up at the entrance. Same make and model as CM's. Also the yellow bike at the school railings at the rear end. Exact type/colour again as that of Mitchells which by some fluke also happened to just disappear! These modes of transport spotted, certainly no car driving across an expansive field or likewise. Which would have left tyre trails - there was none.

So the moped! Again the ground being tested for any pick up of blood trails and certainly none from this bike - but there would not be of course for there was no bike in this strip of woodland and no boys either! This nonsense talk of getting rid of the bike before it could be tested! Again we have to revert back to the Mitchells - the Frontera, the bike at the railings and talk of disposal via a scrap merchant - SM his profession and not being home when he stated he was! Reason given when found out, that he just simply went to fuel the car up around 8 miles from home?

No idea what book/author you are referring to.

Can we keep posts brief and to the point please.

Re footprints/tyre tracks, or lack of, can anyone explain please why there's no mention of?  Given the environment was covered with large trees, over hanging branches and foilage I would expect the ground to be damp even if it hadn't rained from some time.  Dew is unlikely to quickly evaporate in such an environment keeping the ground moist. 

The perp didn't fly there and back on a magic carpet so where are the footprints tyre tracks?

[Holly Goodhead]

Does anyone know the weather conditions on 30th June 2003 and the days leading up to?

[Nicholas]

Nothing we hear that was found? - But then the contention would be there was not as LM only walked a few feet on the inside of the wall. He had not went close enough to even see what he later claimed. If he had however picked anything up, it would have simply been down to presence then. We know the shoes were taken of the others that day and jackets. People are somewhat confused, deliberately so - LM was not forensically tested upon himself that evening as being the murderer - He had samples taken for elimination as with the clothing. A clipping of hair does not equate to there being nothing at all upon him. - All that could be determined is there were no assault marks, scratches or bruises - but we know with certainty that this girl had nothing upon her of her attacker. Her wounds were of defence, of shielding blow not of attack.

No and there doesn’t appear to be any moment by moment accurate reporting on the actual murder trial

‘Jodi Jones: A uniquely hard case’ By Rosalind McInnes

’The Jodi Jones murder case is, it has been said, the longest Scottish murder trial against a single accused.
For the jurors, and for anyone with even a professional interest in this especially disturbing case, it certainly must feel that way

The millennium has already seen some outstandingly protracted and terrible Scottish murder proceedings - the mass slaughter of Lockerbie, the carnage of William Beggs, the calculating horror of Nat Fraser's crime.

Each represents an unimaginable tragedy for those intimately involved. Each also poses delicate legal questions.

How does a journalist do the job of letting the public know what is going on, in a case evoking widespread outrage and fear, whilst protecting vulnerable participants and the presumption of innocence?

The law tries to hold the values of open justice, human sensitivity and legitimate public interest in a workable tension.

First, we have the Contempt of Court Act 1981. This makes it a contempt to publish anything which gives rise to a substantial risk of serious prejudice to court proceedings - whether a journalist intended to do any harm, or not.

The act allows a banning order to be made even in relation to facts the jury have already heard. The journalist has to give a fair and accurate report of what goes on in court.

Secondly, there are various legal rules to protect the privacy of children who are caught up in legal proceedings.

Thirdly, the judge has authority to protect the integrity of his courtroom.

Luke Mitchell's trial was fraught from the very beginning. At the time of Jodi's murder, he was, as defence counsel was later to stress, 14.

Everyone in Dalkeith, and soon throughout the UK, knew who he was. When he was arrested, at the age of 15, the legal rules protecting the anonymity of children kicked in.

As a mere suspect, he could be named, and was. As an arrested minor, his name could not be published.

The outcome was an ironic happy birthday from some chagrined tabloids when Luke Mitchell turned 16, and, later, contempt proceedings against some newspapers which were felt by the Procurator Fiscal to have jumped the gun.

The publicity before the arrest, including the boy's own television interview, denying Jodi's murder, helped to muddy the waters.

As preparations went ahead for the trial, the court reporters felt increasingly embattled.

Swingeing demands by the defence to recover vast amounts of material from broadcasters, without a reason being offered, were only trimmed back after a hearing before the trial judge, Lord Nimmo Smith.

The defence made an early, unsuccessful attempt to have the BBC found in contempt for reporting on the planned reconstruction of the wall behind which the victim's body was found.

The Telegraph was also called into court to apologise for an article it published early in the trial

Defence counsel apparently even objected at one point to being sketched by BBC courtroom artist Julia Quenzler, who had flown up from London for the trial.

Broadcasters especially began to struggle to make meaningful packages. The tight Scottish approach to identification evidence means photographs of the accused are rarely shown.

In the Mitchell trial, however, it was made clear by the judge that shots of the crime-scene might themselves amount to contempt.

This unusual stricture began to make sense as the Crown's case developed, but would have been difficult to predict.

The trial judge, although in no way obstructive to the media's need to do their job, felt unable to give a pre-trial briefing, beyond saying that the media could report what went on in court.

For television reports, this resulted in a continual struggle to describe adequately to the audience images - of photographs, of weapons, of maps - which the people in this public court were seeing; hence the poignant over-use of the home video of Jodi Jones.

The challenge to make television coverage relevant and comprehensible, especially when the evidence was complicated and circumstantial, was at least partly mitigated by the courtroom sketches, but increased as the weeks wore on.

In the context of the trial of a young man for the brutal murder of a young girl, reporters' difficulties pall into insignificance.

A combination of factors in the Jodi Jones murder trial, however - the young age and the late arrest of the accused, the nature of the evidence, the aggressive approach of the defence to coverage and the absence of visual material - made this a uniquely hard case for 21st century court reporting.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4192947.stm

[Holly Goodhead]

Does anyone know the weather conditions on 30th June 2003 and the days leading up to?

Here's the temp for 30th June 2003.  Still looking for rain.

https://www.meteocentre.co.uk/weather-archive/city-detail/031600-99999/edinburgh

[rulesapply]

Here's the temp for 30th June 2003.  Still looking for rain.

https://www.meteocentre.co.uk/weather-archive/city-detail/031600-99999/edinburgh

Thanks for that. If I'm reading it properly, 1.9mm on 30th June and 3.5mm on 1st July 2003.

[Holly Goodhead]

Thanks for that. If I'm reading it properly, 1.9mm on 30th June and 3.5mm on 1st July 2003.

I couldn't access the precipitation data but based on the following and given the environment with trees, vegetation, foilage and overhanging branches I would expect the ground to be moist enough to yield footprints/tyre tracks. 

http://www.met.reading.ac.uk/~brugge/diary2003.html#0306

The above gives general weather conditions for the British Isles. 

[rulesapply]

I couldn't access the precipitation data but based on the following and given the environment with trees, vegetation, foilage and overhanging branches I would expect the ground to be moist enough to yield footprints/tyre tracks. 

http://www.met.reading.ac.uk/~brugge/diary2003.html#0306

The above gives general weather conditions for the British Isles.

I'll have a look at that when I come back home.
Unfortunately I couldn't see any data of the time/s it rained. Do you mean specific tyre tracks or any tyre tracks at all?

[Paranoid Android]

You guys know the whole thing about the cops not being able to get a tarpaulin up in time to preserve the crime scene from the rain, aye?

[Holly Goodhead]

I'll have a look at that when I come back home.
Unfortunately I couldn't see any data of the time/s it rained. Do you mean specific tyre tracks or any tyre tracks at all?

Any tyre tracks and/or footprints. 

[Holly Goodhead]

You guys know the whole thing about the cops not being able to get a tarpaulin up in time to preserve the crime scene from the rain, aye?

No I didn't know but you would expect the soc was prime for tyre tracks and/or footprints regardless of rainfall after the event.  The CoA doc describes the environment as having large trees, over hanging branches, foilage and vegetation.  From this it would seem a damp enviroment with some protection from the elements ie rain and sun. It might be that if there was a lot of vegetation and foilage not much bare soil to yield tracks/prints. 

[Parky41]

No idea what book/author you are referring to.

Can we keep posts brief and to the point please.

Re footprints/tyre tracks, or lack of, can anyone explain please why there's no mention of?  Given the environment was covered with large trees, over hanging branches and foilage I would expect the ground to be damp even if it hadn't rained from some time.  Dew is unlikely to quickly evaporate in such an environment keeping the ground moist. 

The perp didn't fly there and back on a magic carpet so where are the footprints tyre tracks?

Really? My mistake then Holly, did you not mention several weeks ago of ordering up the book, the advice given that you should put two weeks aside to read it? - Perhaps it was another?

However, please spare me the advice on how to conduct my posts. It was very much in line with what you were discussing, of fingertip searching, tyre tracks and footprints. But bluff away with this nonsense of not knowing which author/book one was referring to. The point being made that there should be more of what you are searching for over the nonsense in it? - actual relevant information as opposed to deflection.

So how short and brief would you like it? - There is NO ACCESS for vehicles in RD wood. NO access for cars to travel up or down RDP. An area at either end where a car may park up on gravel, a road. One end a very small area, the other a whole road a mile long. - No tyre tracks to be had as such - BUT a maroon Frontera was spotted parked here, same make and model as CM's. A bike, a yellow push bike at the railings of the school - same colour and type as LM's. - is it this you do not wish to hear when asking about tyres?

At/in the actual woodland itself with your knowledge of soil, the dampness and all else - good to see that you acknowledge reason as to why there were not litres of blood lying on top of it! - What there was not was blood trails and footprints heading anywhere other than west. - hope that clears it for you. No blood found East of the locus, South or directly North. - All West.

So perhaps some clarity? - is it bloodied footprints, any old footprints? - Or the actual area surrounding, have you even looked at it? Where exactly are you envisioning these tyres about? That you do not accept that the killer went into the woods on foot, that they had no car parked anywhere leaving tyre trails? There was really, no where off road for them to take a car so no tyre trails. Unless as I stated they drove across the field! Where one would be sure it would have been picked up and noted. a crop flattened. So clarity please? Where exactly are you looking for these tyre trails?