Author Topic: What's Significant About LM Finding J J?  (Read 67015 times)

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Offline Paranoid Android

Re: What's Significant About LM Finding J J?
« Reply #165 on: September 25, 2021, 03:52:14 PM »
The two parts are separated by a wall - it's been mentioned.

If a dog is on a particular side of the wall, that will be because a human has picked either side.

Offline Parky41

Re: What's Significant About LM Finding J J?
« Reply #166 on: September 25, 2021, 04:13:01 PM »
Not for dogs off of a lead.

And his was on a tight short rope lead with harness. "bounded" indeed?

Offline Parky41

Re: What's Significant About LM Finding J J?
« Reply #167 on: September 25, 2021, 04:18:23 PM »
This might help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKL-pJvePsg&t=39s

This chap has done a series of videos in & around the locus. Although these videos are taken around March time, where the vegetation won't be fully grown yet, I suspect it won't have been a huge difference to what it may have looked in June/July. The chap is also very much in the Mitchell camp, so best with volume down.

What a lot of nonsense yet again. This is one of the 'amigos' 'Lugs'.

As you say, better with the sound down but it needs some form of explanation.

Firstly as I have stated is the thickness and height of that wall. And the distance from the actual path to the wall itself. And we add in those 8 mins of this party of four being together. It is overcast, and the air is not clear. Damp. And they are walking down this path and they approach where that break is, and Mitchell with his dog (could have being doing somersaults, it makes no difference), goes directly to it. Over and directly left.

Now stop, if you have actually put the video on, and Rusty is correct. It was filmed here in winter and lots of the vegetation from 18 years ago gone. But those brief glimpses given in the video at the start of  looking down to the left, directly beside that wall. And it was 40ft from the break that Mitchell had left Jodi's body, hidden behind a large Oak tree. Off the beaten track, no path as such, a passageway that had obstacle after obstacle in the way. No clear line of sight.

SD the guy shooting it, only looks back to the V, states the murder happened there, no it did not. Then he walks towards Easthouse's, by that trodden path I mentioned that people used, if accessing the woods by that break, to head up into the other woods. Passes the spot, where he briefly mentions 'condom guy' around roughly where it was found, in the opposite direction of where Jodi was murdered. Give him his due he states he was cleared and not involved.

But back to those 8 mins (approx) on that path, directly to that break in the wall, over and seconds later shouting out. Where SD states that the dog jumped up at the V and that the dog looked left (class) But what is shows is just how many lies are told, clearly by lying by omission and attempting to tie in that dog with the search parties account, and they really have no clue about Mitchells evidence. Where he lied from the off, of them all being well down past that break, his dog reacting parallel to where Jodi lay, and him backtracking to the break to go over.

And one really has to ask here, from those people who have jumped on board, feel they are fighting the fight, a good cause - If they actually knew the truth, actually saw those witness account, heard accurately the evidence led and the defence of, they would not be of the same mind. For it tells a completely different story to the one the author, onto that documentary put out. Which was full of misinformation and lies.

And we see that clearly with this guy, with the sunshine bunch - Where they all have the dog reacting directly at the break in the wall. They have studied the book, watched the documentary. They have it that the dog did no react before the break, for Jodi was not before the break. That the dog reacted at the break, and Mitchell knew to go left, and as Lugs states, the "dog was looking to the left"

The truth. Those 8 mins. That first intro to the woods at the gino break. They come to the V, and it is exactly that. Mitchell and his dog go directly to it. And in come the lies. "That the search trio all agreed with Luke, that Mia alerted to the wall then they all changed their mind, stated he went directly to it"

For they do not know. That Mitchell did not agree with the search trio at all, not from the first to the last. He was clear and he was specific. This is his statement. "we walked some distance past a break in the wall, not even 20 yards, when Mia bounded to the wall" He goes on to state of the "air sniffing" "pawing at the wall" and of him "backtracking to where the break was as it was easier to access the woods"

And it had to be Mitchells account, for it to be viable in the slightest, that gave him cause to go directly to his left, on an untrodden path, through overgrowth and all else. But then he stated he had walked much further here also. He had not, for again in those first accounts from the search trio. That after Mitchell entered those woods, proceeded left, that JaJ and Kelly then walked past, further down, around 10-15ft and Mitchell shouted out. They ran back that short distance at haste, and Mitchell was once again on the other side of that break.

So really? Look at that wall. Look at the thickness of it. Look at the woodland even in winter and the wrong areas!. Look at the clear different accounts told from the off. Look at the time frame of less than 8mins of setting off together. And can you honestly say, that you believe that his dog, reacted from 40ft away, through that high, thick dry stone dyke, to something that was over 40ft down from it. Can you just ignore Mitchells clear lies, of being past it, the diagram he drew. That in the dark, and in just seconds, off the beaten track and hidden, he miraculously finds her?!

And then we have to add in why they were all there - Mitchell.
He lied, he stated he had never been in that stretch of woodland before, and he lied that he had never seen that break in the wall before. And the search trio made it clear, that the woods never entered their heads, why would they? But who introduced the woodland and again Mitchell. Why?

So, please, head out of the clouds here - Look at that wall, look at his account, look at his lies. Look at those 8 mins. Look why they were there. Look at who first offered to search. Look at who was on that  path within 10mins of that offer. Look at who was only around 2/3 of the way up it when the trio arrived. And keep on adding in the rest - tunnel vision, fit up - not on your life.

And the arms and legs, any old thing getting made up to try and make it work - it does not work at all, any of it. SD (lugs), has it that there was blood to the west and east of the break, no there was not. Nonsense. But then he has Jodi murdered almost at it. The blood was from NW up and across to that V break. Nothing east of that break in the wall.

And we add in reason as to why Jodi was that far down and away from that break in the wall when that attack happened. For she was with someone she knew, someone she frequented that strip of woodland with, someone she trusted - and that person was LM. After he met with her, after he was ID by AB. And he attacked her once far enough down, away from the beaten track, in that isolated area of that woodland strip. 

And one wishes to place trust in the author, and the two PI's?! Where they have it that she may have been murdered elsewhere. Really, and we just have to look again at that isolated area, with little in the way of access. And the evidence of her death happening exactly there. And we can put a massive question mark around any judgement they may make - complete and utter guff. Total fallacy and fantasy of fact and fiction.

Offline Mr Apples

Re: What's Significant About LM Finding J J?
« Reply #168 on: September 25, 2021, 05:13:00 PM »
I have guests up for the September weekend, so I’ll ask again before I get too drunk: was Jodi found in thick grass or thick vegetation?

Here’s a video of the locus. From 4:24-4:33, you can somewhat see where her body was found, though not enough to tell if she was found in high grass or thick vegetation. Anyone know??

https://youtu.be/ekoHFga6StE

Offline faithlilly

Re: What's Significant About LM Finding J J?
« Reply #169 on: September 25, 2021, 06:43:55 PM »
And his was on a tight short rope lead with harness. "bounded" indeed?

“Luke’s dog was pulling him to the wall” Steven Kelly.

Indeed.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline faithlilly

Re: What's Significant About LM Finding J J?
« Reply #170 on: September 25, 2021, 07:14:23 PM »

But of course, one is trying to imply that the police put words into pretty much everyone's mouths, more so Mitchell. Interestingly the author speaks of a young witness, who she claims the police wrote down lots of words she did not understand, and stated "don't worry, it means the same, you won't be called as a witness anyway" A very intelligent and bright young girl. And of course nonsense, the police write down what you say, read back and if inconsistencies then can change/clarify. And one would doubt, they would put down some words that someone simply did not understand - and of course there is no example given of any words!

Indeed. So how do you think this happened?

“ When she returned, Mr Findlay said that in a statement to police in the early hours of July 1 she had said 'everyone was in hysterics'.

Janine replied: 'The only time Luke showed any emotion was when he was on the phone to the police and we started shouting at him and then he started to raise his voice.'

Mr Findlay: 'Are you saying the police have written something wrong in the statement?'

Janine: 'I may have phrased it wrong. They may have taken it down wrong.

'I didn't mean everyone was in hysterics. As I said, the police have misrepresented it.”




And of AW, yes we know that she suggested they look properly. Hardly surprising, is it?

Not surprising at all if they knew that Jodi was on her way to Newbattle.

She was coming to mine, she was supposed to walk this path to get there = the last place she would/could have been he has made clear, is that very path. Again the utter nonsense of zoning in on one thing over everything else, that of AW but when it is put into context it shows a completely different account. They have walked down to meet with him, already an area of that path that could not have been searched. He has the dog, he is making it clear of using the dog ! with or without having that something of Jodi's. So they then do what they were meeting to do, to search that path together! - and in around 8 mins - that miraculous find (cough)  He had fed and filled their heads with that path and searching it, plain and simple. From waiting on that first correspondence coming through.

Luke has already come up the path, Jodi, if she was ‘messing about up here ( Easthouses) wouldn’t have been on the path, so why the need to walk down it again? The only explanation is that they knew that Jodi had started out towards Newbattle.

10.49pm - 'I will search, I will search the RDP. I will come to yours to go through phone numbers?!? And again, the only number he may have been able to give was the mutual friend above, if Jodi's mother did not already have it, but then this girl was away on a school trip. So that guise of phone numbers was false, a non starter. He was heading and leading a search to the RDP. And every piece of nonsense given, in an attempt to rush him up that path, to deflect away from the dog doing naff all, backfired time and again. For it that lad had been rushing anywhere, he would have been up and off it. He was not, he was waiting and he was leading that search to it, intentionally.

He certainly was rushing though, chapping at the bit from 10pm. 10.49pm and that instant offer to get on that path and search and by 10.59pm he is that path. And the one thing that stands out along with this, is the police! 10.49pm "I am phoning the police Luke and he is right in there" 10.59pm "I have phoned the police Luke, Jodi's gran is coming out and it is "I am on the  path" And he stays and within minutes of meeting, before the police have an active chance to be involved she is found!! - he knew exactly what he was doing. Jack flash, up at that Gino break introducing the woodland to the search, and upon the next break in is instantly there and over. And it is here yet again that the book deflects away from:

The "interrogation" - Of Mitchell wanting the screen turned back to see! It did not matter as with the claims of being "parallel to" on the path side, where Mitchell claimed he had walked to, on the inside of that wall, for he had not. He did not have the time to, in motion with Kelly and JaJ on that unobstructed path side 10 -15 steps. And it was them that hasted back and there he was, on the other side of that break, once more. He could not have walked more than those 3 meters on the inside of that wall, and there was no visibility from there, still around 30 ft away with obstacle after obstacle in the way of sight. And those lies just keep on given -

Mitchell had a search light it is claimed, whilst the others had mere household torches! He was able to see further and see everything due to this, given as a reason you know, Just in case he had only walked those three meters!! But there was no evidence of him carrying a search light, one with x-ray powers of course! Those torches tested to see exactly how strong they were.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline rulesapply

Re: What's Significant About LM Finding J J?
« Reply #171 on: September 27, 2021, 01:53:12 PM »
What if LM wasn't spotted going home to clean up because he didn't go home after Jodi's murder? What if he stayed in the woods until later? There's so much emphasis on LM not being spotted but he may have been hiding and he may have had help.

Offline mrswah

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Re: What's Significant About LM Finding J J?
« Reply #172 on: September 27, 2021, 05:14:14 PM »
What if LM wasn't spotted going home to clean up because he didn't go home after Jodi's murder? What if he stayed in the woods until later? There's so much emphasis on LM not being spotted but he may have been hiding and he may have had help.

Help from whom?

Offline Parky41

Re: What's Significant About LM Finding J J?
« Reply #173 on: September 27, 2021, 08:41:16 PM »



Quote
But of course, one is trying to imply that the police put words into pretty much everyone's mouths, more so Mitchell. Interestingly the author speaks of a young witness, who she claims the police wrote down lots of words she did not understand, and stated "don't worry, it means the same, you won't be called as a witness anyway" A very intelligent and bright young girl. And of course nonsense, the police write down what you say, read back and if inconsistencies then can change/clarify. And one would doubt, they would put down some words that someone simply did not understand - and of course there is no example given of any words!

Quote
Indeed. So how do you think this happened?

“ When she returned, Mr Findlay said that in a statement to police in the early hours of July 1 she had said 'everyone was in hysterics'.

Janine replied: 'The only time Luke showed any emotion was when he was on the phone to the police and we started shouting at him and then he started to raise his voice.'

And then those recording were played, and there is nothing that could alter or muddy the waters upon that clear physical proof. That flat effect voice of Mitchell with those hysterics in the background, those screams. Along with of course, the areas of her statement, when asked to clarify what exactly was meant, when she mentioned hysterics.

So you see Faith, the court heard Mitchell, they heard Alice and Janine screaming in the background of his flat effect tones. And then Kelly, screaming and F'n and blinding. Nothing can alter or change that proof.

But of course we were talking of people knowing what was in their statements, and of course you fail as above, to show the rest, to show the clarification. But of the young girl, Mitchells best friend, and those claims of the police putting down words that she did not recognize. Not a misunderstanding, not taken in the wrong way, unrecognizable words?! With not a snifter to show this to be true, to show those words.

So not the same, and in JaJ's statements there was clarification and correction. So not simply left, and of DF attempts, to show at some point she had stated that as one does, and omits the rest - good old prosecution and that balance and of course the recordings - doesn't get any better than that. As we had with the path fiasco. Makes it sound the part, when only showing a fraction of the evidence around that path. But alas, as with everything, those minute areas of scraping in the pits of that barrel simply fall flat - empty bias.


Offline Parky41

Re: What's Significant About LM Finding J J?
« Reply #174 on: September 27, 2021, 08:52:42 PM »
Some realism of course, for most - Who instantly just think, bloody hell! Someone is known to be missing and 50 mins later a call is put through to the emergency services that they have been found dead. Not only found dead, but in an isolated area of woodland, hidden out of sight. And we add to this. That no one was actually in that woodland searching, just four people who met to walk down a path running alongside it, with a high, thick, dry stone dyke separating the two. Some 4-5ft in from it. They have a dog, not belonging to the family who it is claimed was partially trained to find toys!! That these four people reach more than 40ft away, on the path side of this thick, high, dry stone dyke, and it is claimed the dog picked up some scent. That the owner without that dog went into the woodland, walked around 10 steps and found the hidden body of this person. Who was over 40ft down from the break in the wall that they entered this woodland from.

So we think, well, 50mins to search an area with a dog and it seems feasible, just. But then you learn that the actual search was in fact less than 8 mins. And we tie in not being in that woodland but merely on the path, cut off by that high, thick, dry stone dyke. In the dark, overcast and damp. The air is not clear and full of smells/scents. It is a path used by other dogs, a woodland full of wildlife.  And only one person, without the aid of that dog, decides it is a good idea to look over into the woods, they climb the wall and briefly shine their torch. (Gino break) To remember here, there is absolutely no reason why that missing person would actually be in the woods. For now we can add further information in at this point.

The reason why these four people are actually on that path. It is due to the person who has that dog. They are the missing persons boyfriend, they have stated that the girl was to meet them in Newbattle, but that she had not appeared on the other end of that path, some 6 hours earlier. They did not report this, they did nothing. She did not appear and they went off and did something else. No one is made aware that she is missing until she fails to arrive home by her curfew time. Her family (mother), who knew her daughter had left home, to meet her boyfriend and spend the evening with him, believed that is where her daughter had been. Upon her curfew time coming and going, the first person she contacted, was of course her boyfriend. The girl had no phone.

Now we add in some more information - When it is realised the girl is missing, that she had left home to meet with her boyfriend some 6 hours earlier, her mother finds out that this meet had not taken place. Told that she had failed to turn up in Newbattle to meet with him. So the mother tells the boyfriend she is contacting the police and she does. This is within minutes of realising she is missing, and before anyone even has a chance to think of searching, to think of much of anything. The boyfriend is first in there, to offer to search. Not a fragment of worry the whole evening, but instantly offers, not only to search but to search this path he claims she failed to appear at the other side of. The girl is reported missing. The mother contacts the boyfriend again, less than 10mins from that last call to him, and he is on that path (it is a good 7 mins walk from his house). She tells him the police have been called.

Now we add in some other information, it takes around 11 mins to walk that path from west to east. The time now is around 11.10pm and members of this girls family are walking to Easthouse's, the boy waits on them arriving. When they arrive he is still not at the top of that path, only around 3/4 of the way up it, 2/3 even. As when they arrive at the top of that path they see a torch light in the distance approaching them, and shout out "Is that you Luke?". They had torches, but not close enough to make him out. They walk to meet with him. They know of course that the path could not have been searched in it's entirety - he is not even at the top of it. He asks, if by his earlier request, if they had brought anything of Jodi's, they had not. And the gran naturally says, we will check properly, I mean? It has not all been checked and he is going to only then put that dog into seek mode.

Now we add in some more information - The dog is put into seek mode, it is on a short lead and harness. We have mentioned the intro to the woods above, and now we add a few steps into the field, again at random, nothing to do with the dog. It is being a dog, sniffing and scenting and leaving it's scent. And the boy takes himself in front again, after the Gino and after the field. They come to another break in the wall, and this time with his dog he goes to the break and he goes over. The dog, overtly excited. This break, in the shape of a V, the only place on that path, that has a large enough gap, to further it's excitement of heading somewhere, perhaps it had been before.

Now we add in some more information - He (boy with his dog) claimed that they (all) had walked well past that break, parallel to where Jodi lay in the woods. The other three state the exact opposite, this is in those very first accounts.which were always upon coming to that break, of them all stopping at the break, and only two of them walking further, after the boy had entered the woods. Not at any point had the boy and his dog walked past, and no-one, until after he entered those woods. Something is clearly wrong, there can be no way that this search trio, consisting of member of Jodi's family, can be wrong in their description. For further down from that break, on this path side, there is no visibility, they simply could not have seen what all three gave a description of. Upon being asked to clarify, further information was added. They had been taken back to this path, and mapped and marked out where each person had been. The three still upon approaching and at that break, the boy still some 40ft past it, parallel he claimed to where his girlfriend lay in the woods, 4-5ft in, up and over that 8ft + high, thick, dry stone dyke. At no break. 

So just stop for a moment, there is of course a hell of a lot more information - But we have one person who failed to raise any alarm. They are the first to mention search, and to mention that path. They are the first onto that path, and they stay on that path. They are the first to lead and to take the lead twice. They are the first to introduce the woodland. And they are the first over that wall into it. And they lie. The search trio did not lie, not from that first onwards. They always stated it was upon coming to that break in the wall. And we add in those 8 mins from walking down together. And it is straight to the point. That introduction to the woods, taking the lead and going into those woods at the first real opportunity where the wall is broken.

Why did he lie?  More so that clear realism here - why did this boy not raise any alarm, when by his claims, she failed to arrive on the other side of that path, some six hours earlier. He claims he was phoning her house, to let her know he was out earlier (only after the phone records were obtained, and his original claim of leaving at 5.45 changed to 5.30pm) So, by his claims, he knows she had left to meet him, she is not late , and that again by his claims, she was heading to Newbattle. And he claims to wait, that factual time being around 90mins. And she does not appear and he does not raise any alarm, as by his claims, she was coming to his, she had walked an isolated path and not appeared on the other side of it. Further, this claim after those phone records were obtained did no tarry, changed to suit as other evidence immerged. The first, simply leaving at 5.45 to meet her for 6, the arranged time. The second to then claim he phoned, to tell her he was out earlier and on that road waiting for her.

And we add in further information. For the only person whom the boy kept in the loop, of meeting his girlfriend, of her not appearing was the boys mother. And she did nothing, bar claim to tell him, that all will be well. The first time being around 7pm, when he told her, to tell his girlfriend, if she should show up, then to send her into the Abbey grounds, that "she will know where". The second time, when claimed to arrive home around 9pm and again, the claims are that she told him, "she will have been caught up with friends gabbing" And we add in more, the boy claimed to have been home and stayed home, until he took the dog out for the toilet at 10.30pm. He was however witnessed arriving home at 10pm.

And we add in some more, the girls mother, had said that her daughter told her, that she was meeting with Luke, that they would be "mucking about up here" - There is no dispute that the two were to meet, and to be spending the evening together. So one claimed meet in the Easthouse's end and one in the Newbattle end. Where Jodi's parent were left in the dark. No warning of anything being wrong, no insight into using an isolated path, one which a ban had been placed upon using. And of course, at the point of the phone call from the boyfriend, there was no concern from him, it was only to let her know he was out earlier. The briefest of conversation, "is Jodi there?" - "no, she has already left to meet you". It is dinner time, busy and occupied, the boy could have been late to meet the girl, anywhere. The only person, if by their claims, to have an incline of any worry, any danger is that boy, and of course his mother.

And now we tie in some more, that ban on the path, the claim is by the boy, that he knew of no ban. That he had never been in that woodland before and knew not of that break in the wall, never seen it before. Yet? Here we had this boy, not only infiltrating the idea and claim that the girl would have walked that path, failed to appear on the other side, he also introduced the notion that she could be in the woodland. A path, unlikely to have walked on her own, and a woodland he claimed not to have stepped in before. Where there was little chance the girl had walked the path alone, certainly less of being in that actual woodland alone.

And we add in some more - witnesses and evidence is produced that show the boy is lying. Not only had he been in that woodland before with others, and to that break in the wall he had frequented it with Jodi herself. To the point that they had carved their initials into a tree. And the lies are beginning to stack up. That he carried knives also, he denied this. That the area of woodland that the attack began in , was off the beaten track, deep into and going nowhere. Where it could not be clearer that this girl was only in that area, in the company of someone she knew and trusted.

Then we tie in sightings coming through. One which was to be positively ID as being Mitchell, wearing khaki green clothing at the East end of that path. Then of another positive ID of this youth, wearing khaki green clothing at the west end of that path, by two further people. And we tie in that Jodi had in fact left earlier and not for 6pm as the boy claimed.

Then we tie in the alibi. A clear sequence of events with lots of detail that ran precisely from five past five until 5.45pm. Then we tie in the inclusion of the brother, to match that very precise timings between five past five and 5.45pm. Then we tie in footage of CTTV and the phone logs, which completely wiped out approx 30mins of that alibi leaving around 13mins, to carry everything they stated out. Then we tie in the chopping and changing of accounts at will to match any evidence. That one could simply not have been mistaken about the time she had gotten home, when she then included her other son into areas that she had forgotten. That he could not have spoken to her at five past five at all, then waited around ten mins for dinner to be ready and all else. And we have to then revert to his clear evidence - that he had "popped his head round the lounge door, and no one was home" No music, no burnt pies and as he stated, no brother did he see. Not in the house or at any entrance of that estate when he left home, just after 5.30pm.

And we tie in those fires, of whatever was being burnt in the back garden that evening, and we tie in the denials, the admittance and all else - it matters not, there were fires and there were lies being told around this.

And we tie in that miraculous find, and every piece of evidence of how calm and collective this "child" was. Ignored his mothers calls, a mother who was evidently that frantic she reached out to  no one else. Neither did this "child" Ignored his mothers calls and did not reach out to her, his father or his brother.

And there can be no clearer proof that physical evidence of how calm and collective this "child" was. Those recordings to the emergency services. Those screams of "hysterics" in the background and Mitchells flat effect tones. Kelly and his F'n and blinding, clearly distraught. Mitchell - nothing.

Offline faithlilly

Re: What's Significant About LM Finding J J?
« Reply #175 on: September 27, 2021, 11:25:51 PM »

And then those recording were played, and there is nothing that could alter or muddy the waters upon that clear physical proof. That flat effect voice of Mitchell with those hysterics in the background, those screams. Along with of course, the areas of her statement, when asked to clarify what exactly was meant, when she mentioned hysterics.

So you see Faith, the court heard Mitchell, they heard Alice and Janine screaming in the background of his flat effect tones. And then Kelly, screaming and F'n and blinding. Nothing can alter or change that proof.

As ever, when faced with difficult questions, deflection is your method of choice. My question had nothing to do with Luke’s behaviour and everything to do with the police putting words into witnesses mouths, something you said never happened. Yet here we are with the prosecution’s own witness claiming just that. So are you saying that the police ‘misrepresented’ what Janine said because that’s how it appears?

But of course we were talking of people knowing what was in their statements, and of course you fail as above, to show the rest, to show the clarification. But of the young girl, Mitchells best friend, and those claims of the police putting down words that she did not recognize. Not a misunderstanding, not taken in the wrong way, unrecognizable words?! With not a snifter to show this to be true, to show those words.

We have Janine’s testimony that that’s exactly what the police did in this case, put words into witnesses mouths. Even after reading her statement back Janine still signed it as a true representation of what she said, just like Luke’s friend.. So was she telling the truth in court and like Luke’s friend the police had twisted her words or had the police written down exactly what Janine had said and she lied in court? It has to be one of those scenarios.

So not the same, and in JaJ's statements there was clarification and correction. So not simply left, and of DF attempts, to show at some point she had stated that as one does, and omits the rest - good old prosecution and that balance and of course the recordings - doesn't get any better than that. As we had with the path fiasco. Makes it sound the part, when only showing a fraction of the evidence around that path. But alas, as with everything, those minute areas of scraping in the pits of that barrel simply fall flat - empty bias.

Absolutely the same but same old tactics too, suggestions of further evidence not presented here, of evidence hinted at but never revealed. No clarifications, no corrections just the police and prosecution witnesses tangled up in a web of their own lies.

“ There’s a young lad in a panic here.”
“ We were all in hysterics”.   

That’s the truth. 

« Last Edit: September 27, 2021, 11:47:24 PM by faithlilly »
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Parky41

Re: What's Significant About LM Finding J J?
« Reply #176 on: September 28, 2021, 12:44:17 PM »

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And then those recording were played, and there is nothing that could alter or muddy the waters upon that clear physical proof. That flat effect voice of Mitchell with those hysterics in the background, those screams. Along with of course, the areas of her statement, when asked to clarify what exactly was meant, when she mentioned hysterics.

So you see Faith, the court heard Mitchell, they heard Alice and Janine screaming in the background of his flat effect tones. And then Kelly, screaming and F'n and blinding. Nothing can alter or change that proof.


As ever, when faced with difficult questions, deflection is your method of choice. My question had nothing to do with Luke’s behaviour and everything to do with the police putting words into witnesses mouths, something you said never happened. Yet here we are with the prosecution’s own witness claiming just that. So are you saying that the police ‘misrepresented’ what Janine said because that’s how it appears?

My point was, and is - unrecognizable words. as below. And what i stated was, the author claimed that unrecognizable words were put into 'one' witnesses mouth/statement yet gave no proof of those "unrecognizable words" There is a world of difference between, completely altering words and changing them into something else "unrecognizable" - but you know that of course, playing silly beggars as per.

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But of course we were talking of people knowing what was in their statements, and of course you fail as above, to show the rest, to show the clarification. But of the young girl, Mitchells best friend, and those claims of the police putting down words that she did not recognize. Not a misunderstanding, not taken in the wrong way, unrecognizable words?! With not a snifter to show this to be true, to show those words.

We have Janine’s testimony that that’s exactly what the police did in this case, put words into witnesses mouths. Even after reading her statement back Janine still signed it as a true representation of what she said, just like Luke’s friend.. So was she telling the truth in court and like Luke’s friend the police had twisted her words or had the police written down exactly what Janine had said and she lied in court? It has to be one of those scenarios.

Baby steps for Faith: - JaJ never denied that she said hysterics, no unrecognizable words. Exactly and again, what are you rabbiting on about? Now if the police had put down 'furore' then that is a complete change, perhaps an unrecognizable word. The clarification given, was that, she did say hysterics, and she meant that herself and her gran were screaming, Kelly retching and Mitchell -Nothing! That was her "we"

So, this 'we' And it was, what did you mean with "we" and "all" - DF attempting to to confuse and of course that black and white you are attempting also. This nonsense of the police manipulated the statement or the witness was lying. - When what he was doing, was attempting to scrape at anything, to try and show the jury that there may just have been something, anything that showed his client to have emotion/feeling. That this witness upon clarification had expanded her statement, to make it clear, that what she had meant in that first instance, was of those screams and that retching. Taken in the early hours of July the 1st when she was in shock, traumatised. And that fog lifted a little, and further statements taken - And she clarifies of those screams and so forth. And she makes it clear, what she meant when she said "we were all in hysterics" Her family unit of herself, her gran and Kelly.


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So not the same, and in JaJ's statements there was clarification and correction. So not simply left, and of DF attempts, to show at some point she had stated that as one does, and omits the rest - good old prosecution and that balance and of course the recordings - doesn't get any better than that. As we had with the path fiasco. Makes it sound the part, when only showing a fraction of the evidence around that path. But alas, as with everything, those minute areas of scraping in the pits of that barrel simply fall flat - empty bias.

Absolutely the same but same old tactics too, suggestions of further evidence not presented here, of evidence hinted at but never revealed. No clarifications, no corrections just the police and prosecution witnesses tangled up in a web of their own lies.

And again - not the same, unrecognizable words over clarification given upon something stated earlier. And again you rabbit nonsense. Or are you, in you simple speech, stating that is all JaJ's said on the stand? That no other parts of her statements were read, no clarifications, no corrections, nothing - Just the rabbits out of a hat, of selective cherry picking a handful of words from DF to any witness. Where of course you are doing exactly what you are accusing of: When the point is and always has been. That these minute areas, on repeat are empty of context, the bias in which they are served mean nothing - nada.

And I will say again, it means nothing, those life long bleats of being able to pull out a handful of words, and that combat as above, that I or anyone else can not produce the transcripts - It is only a fool and a bloody big fool at that, who believes that those rabbits out of a hat prove anything. Those with just a fragment of intellect, know that a handful of words are empty of context.


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There’s a young lad in a panic here.”
“ We were all in hysterics”.   

That’s the truth
.

The truth is those recordings. Can't change them, can't scrub them out. JaJ's clarified that 'we' her gran and herself were in hysterics screaming and Steven retching. That they had to shout at Mitchell! - And was she telling the truth when she clarified this, dam right she was for they played those recordings. Mitchell, flat effect, monotone voice, and those hysterics in the background, exactly as she stated. Her gran screaming, her screaming. And then Kelly and that "lad in a panic" Class courtroom drama! DF playing that "lad in a panic" and the AD "wait!, let us play that again, who's voice is that?" And it was Steven Kelly's.

Of course, the real trouble with having someone attempting to dictate how a trial went, when they were not even present, just reading some partial scripts from it - just doesn't work, does it? Those recordings were outstanding proof of Mitchells calm, collective, non affected person. As were the calls to the the speaking clock. Produced again by DF. To show that his client had used the service before. And again the AD, and those times of the calls, shown to be when Mitchell was not in his house, walking to school, lunchtime and so forth. They only proved he was in the habit of doing so, when not near a clock.

And back to that friend, those claimed "unrecognizable words" Not simply the clarification of what they meant by "we" Can we see some? Now I do not know if they did or not put down "unrecognizable words" The point I was making, a young, bright, articulate girl, those "unrecognizable words" must have been something else for someone bright not to understand what they meant? Strange that neither DF or the AD read out any "unrecognizable words" - don't you think?


« Last Edit: September 28, 2021, 12:47:28 PM by Parky41 »

Offline Parky41

Re: What's Significant About LM Finding J J?
« Reply #177 on: September 28, 2021, 12:51:49 PM »
Some realism of course, for most - Who instantly just think, bloody hell! Someone is known to be missing and 50 mins later a call is put through to the emergency services that they have been found dead. Not only found dead, but in an isolated area of woodland, hidden out of sight. And we add to this. That no one was actually in that woodland searching, just four people who met to walk down a path running alongside it, with a high, thick, dry stone dyke separating the two. Some 4-5ft in from it. They have a dog, not belonging to the family who it is claimed was partially trained to find toys!! That these four people reach more than 40ft away, on the path side of this thick, high, dry stone dyke, and it is claimed the dog picked up some scent. That the owner without that dog went into the woodland, walked around 10 steps and found the hidden body of this person. Who was over 40ft down from the break in the wall that they entered this woodland from.

So we think, well, 50mins to search an area with a dog and it seems feasible, just. But then you learn that the actual search was in fact less than 8 mins. And we tie in not being in that woodland but merely on the path, cut off by that high, thick, dry stone dyke. In the dark, overcast and damp. The air is not clear and full of smells/scents. It is a path used by other dogs, a woodland full of wildlife.  And only one person, without the aid of that dog, decides it is a good idea to look over into the woods, they climb the wall and briefly shine their torch. (Gino break) To remember here, there is absolutely no reason why that missing person would actually be in the woods. For now we can add further information in at this point.

The reason why these four people are actually on that path. It is due to the person who has that dog. They are the missing persons boyfriend, they have stated that the girl was to meet them in Newbattle, but that she had not appeared on the other end of that path, some 6 hours earlier. They did not report this, they did nothing. She did not appear and they went off and did something else. No one is made aware that she is missing until she fails to arrive home by her curfew time. Her family (mother), who knew her daughter had left home, to meet her boyfriend and spend the evening with him, believed that is where her daughter had been. Upon her curfew time coming and going, the first person she contacted, was of course her boyfriend. The girl had no phone.

Now we add in some more information - When it is realised the girl is missing, that she had left home to meet with her boyfriend some 6 hours earlier, her mother finds out that this meet had not taken place. Told that she had failed to turn up in Newbattle to meet with him. So the mother tells the boyfriend she is contacting the police and she does. This is within minutes of realising she is missing, and before anyone even has a chance to think of searching, to think of much of anything. The boyfriend is first in there, to offer to search. Not a fragment of worry the whole evening, but instantly offers, not only to search but to search this path he claims she failed to appear at the other side of. The girl is reported missing. The mother contacts the boyfriend again, less than 10mins from that last call to him, and he is on that path (it is a good 7 mins walk from his house). She tells him the police have been called.

Now we add in some other information, it takes around 11 mins to walk that path from west to east. The time now is around 11.10pm and members of this girls family are walking to Easthouse's, the boy waits on them arriving. When they arrive he is still not at the top of that path, only around 3/4 of the way up it, 2/3 even. As when they arrive at the top of that path they see a torch light in the distance approaching them, and shout out "Is that you Luke?". They had torches, but not close enough to make him out. They walk to meet with him. They know of course that the path could not have been searched in it's entirety - he is not even at the top of it. He asks, if by his earlier request, if they had brought anything of Jodi's, they had not. And the gran naturally says, we will check properly, I mean? It has not all been checked and he is going to only then put that dog into seek mode.

Now we add in some more information - The dog is put into seek mode, it is on a short lead and harness. We have mentioned the intro to the woods above, and now we add a few steps into the field, again at random, nothing to do with the dog. It is being a dog, sniffing and scenting and leaving it's scent. And the boy takes himself in front again, after the Gino and after the field. They come to another break in the wall, and this time with his dog he goes to the break and he goes over. The dog, overtly excited. This break, in the shape of a V, the only place on that path, that has a large enough gap, to further it's excitement of heading somewhere, perhaps it had been before.

Now we add in some more information - He (boy with his dog) claimed that they (all) had walked well past that break, parallel to where Jodi lay in the woods. The other three state the exact opposite, this is in those very first accounts.which were always upon coming to that break, of them all stopping at the break, and only two of them walking further, after the boy had entered the woods. Not at any point had the boy and his dog walked past, and no-one, until after he entered those woods. Something is clearly wrong, there can be no way that this search trio, consisting of member of Jodi's family, can be wrong in their description. For further down from that break, on this path side, there is no visibility, they simply could not have seen what all three gave a description of. Upon being asked to clarify, further information was added. They had been taken back to this path, and mapped and marked out where each person had been. The three still upon approaching and at that break, the boy still some 40ft past it, parallel he claimed to where his girlfriend lay in the woods, 4-5ft in, up and over that 8ft + high, thick, dry stone dyke. At no break. 

So just stop for a moment, there is of course a hell of a lot more information - But we have one person who failed to raise any alarm. They are the first to mention search, and to mention that path. They are the first onto that path, and they stay on that path. They are the first to lead and to take the lead twice. They are the first to introduce the woodland. And they are the first over that wall into it. And they lie. The search trio did not lie, not from that first onwards. They always stated it was upon coming to that break in the wall. And we add in those 8 mins from walking down together. And it is straight to the point. That introduction to the woods, taking the lead and going into those woods at the first real opportunity where the wall is broken.

Why did he lie?  More so that clear realism here - why did this boy not raise any alarm, when by his claims, she failed to arrive on the other side of that path, some six hours earlier. He claims he was phoning her house, to let her know he was out earlier (only after the phone records were obtained, and his original claim of leaving at 5.45 changed to 5.30pm) So, by his claims, he knows she had left to meet him, she is not late , and that again by his claims, she was heading to Newbattle. And he claims to wait, that factual time being around 90mins. And she does not appear and he does not raise any alarm, as by his claims, she was coming to his, she had walked an isolated path and not appeared on the other side of it. Further, this claim after those phone records were obtained did no tarry, changed to suit as other evidence immerged. The first, simply leaving at 5.45 to meet her for 6, the arranged time. The second to then claim he phoned, to tell her he was out earlier and on that road waiting for her.

And we add in further information. For the only person whom the boy kept in the loop, of meeting his girlfriend, of her not appearing was the boys mother. And she did nothing, bar claim to tell him, that all will be well. The first time being around 7pm, when he told her, to tell his girlfriend, if she should show up, then to send her into the Abbey grounds, that "she will know where". The second time, when claimed to arrive home around 9pm and again, the claims are that she told him, "she will have been caught up with friends gabbing" And we add in more, the boy claimed to have been home and stayed home, until he took the dog out for the toilet at 10.30pm. He was however witnessed arriving home at 10pm.

And we add in some more, the girls mother, had said that her daughter told her, that she was meeting with Luke, that they would be "mucking about up here" - There is no dispute that the two were to meet, and to be spending the evening together. So one claimed meet in the Easthouse's end and one in the Newbattle end. Where Jodi's parent were left in the dark. No warning of anything being wrong, no insight into using an isolated path, one which a ban had been placed upon using. And of course, at the point of the phone call from the boyfriend, there was no concern from him, it was only to let her know he was out earlier. The briefest of conversation, "is Jodi there?" - "no, she has already left to meet you". It is dinner time, busy and occupied, the boy could have been late to meet the girl, anywhere. The only person, if by their claims, to have an incline of any worry, any danger is that boy, and of course his mother.

And now we tie in some more, that ban on the path, the claim is by the boy, that he knew of no ban. That he had never been in that woodland before and knew not of that break in the wall, never seen it before. Yet? Here we had this boy, not only infiltrating the idea and claim that the girl would have walked that path, failed to appear on the other side, he also introduced the notion that she could be in the woodland. A path, unlikely to have walked on her own, and a woodland he claimed not to have stepped in before. Where there was little chance the girl had walked the path alone, certainly less of being in that actual woodland alone.

And we add in some more - witnesses and evidence is produced that show the boy is lying. Not only had he been in that woodland before with others, and to that break in the wall he had frequented it with Jodi herself. To the point that they had carved their initials into a tree. And the lies are beginning to stack up. That he carried knives also, he denied this. That the area of woodland that the attack began in , was off the beaten track, deep into and going nowhere. Where it could not be clearer that this girl was only in that area, in the company of someone she knew and trusted.

Then we tie in sightings coming through. One which was to be positively ID as being Mitchell, wearing khaki green clothing at the East end of that path. Then of another positive ID of this youth, wearing khaki green clothing at the west end of that path, by two further people. And we tie in that Jodi had in fact left earlier and not for 6pm as the boy claimed.

Then we tie in the alibi. A clear sequence of events with lots of detail that ran precisely from five past five until 5.45pm. Then we tie in the inclusion of the brother, to match that very precise timings between five past five and 5.45pm. Then we tie in footage of CTTV and the phone logs, which completely wiped out approx 30mins of that alibi leaving around 13mins, to carry everything they stated out. Then we tie in the chopping and changing of accounts at will to match any evidence. That one could simply not have been mistaken about the time she had gotten home, when she then included her other son into areas that she had forgotten. That he could not have spoken to her at five past five at all, then waited around ten mins for dinner to be ready and all else. And we have to then revert to his clear evidence - that he had "popped his head round the lounge door, and no one was home" No music, no burnt pies and as he stated, no brother did he see. Not in the house or at any entrance of that estate when he left home, just after 5.30pm.

And we tie in those fires, of whatever was being burnt in the back garden that evening, and we tie in the denials, the admittance and all else - it matters not, there were fires and there were lies being told around this.

And we tie in that miraculous find, and every piece of evidence of how calm and collective this "child" was. Ignored his mothers calls, a mother who was evidently that frantic she reached out to  no one else. Neither did this "child" Ignored his mothers calls and did not reach out to her, his father or his brother.

And there can be no clearer proof that physical evidence of how calm and collective this "child" was. Those recordings to the emergency services. Those screams of "hysterics" in the background and Mitchells flat effect tones. Kelly and his F'n and blinding, clearly distraught. Mitchell - nothing.

And we can add to this those lies of being separated, when the evidence shows us clearly yet again, that Mitchell was in the company of others, until they were all taken to different places to be interviewed.

Offline Mr Apples

Re: What's Significant About LM Finding J J?
« Reply #178 on: September 28, 2021, 08:19:05 PM »
Why were they shouting at Luke? Because he was dithering whilst on the phone to emergency services? Saying “we’ve found something” rather that “we’ve found a body”? Strange that he would say that. Was he giving the police the run-around as they claimed, rather than them misunderstanding the directions? Maybe he purposely dithered so as to buy him more time to think of an alibi and to delete the incriminating data on his phone (i.e, text messages of his meet with Jodi earlier)? Maybe he was enjoying playing games with the police and quietly gloating about his heinous work and revelling in the ensuing chaos and horror? Truly evil and wicked kid?

Offline faithlilly

Re: What's Significant About LM Finding J J?
« Reply #179 on: September 28, 2021, 09:35:24 PM »
Why were they shouting at Luke? Because he was dithering whilst on the phone to emergency services? Saying “we’ve found something” rather that “we’ve found a body”? Strange that he would say that. Was he giving the police the run-around as they claimed, rather than them misunderstanding the directions? Maybe he purposely dithered so as to buy him more time to think of an alibi and to delete the incriminating data on his phone (i.e, text messages of his meet with Jodi earlier)? Maybe he was enjoying playing games with the police and quietly gloating about his heinous work and revelling in the ensuing chaos and horror? Truly evil and wicked kid?

Or maybe he was a 14 year old child who had just found his girlfriend dead but his emotionally immature brain just wouldn’t not let him process that awful truth? People deal with death in many different ways, some wail, some become angry, some go into shock and show no outward sign at all, some express their grief in private. Perhaps if Luke had been given psychological support when taken to the police station we may now have some idea of his actual psychological state.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?