The Bambers: Murder at the farm - Sky Crime documentary

[Nicholas]

No actual evidence that she watered anything down, but when she met with Lewisham police who were going to take her to WHF on the morning of the murders, Julie Mugfords response to being told the whole family was dead, and it looks like Sheila did it....Julie Mugfords immediate verbal response was something like:  Yes, Sheila had been acting strangely for a week or so.   

Not even an 'oh my god', no hands up to face in shock.  Nothing.

That response might be the kind of thing you say if you had scripted an answer before hand, possibly designed to add credence to the idea that Sheila was unstable and capable of killing her family.  To me, it's suspicious.  And the police officer who witnessed it also thought it was a strange reaction.  And CAL thought it important enough to put in her book.

I don’t agree with Carol Ann Lee’s interpretations on some of the things she’s written in her book - although I’ve only read what’s available on google books - I’ve not read the entire thing

What did Carol Ann Lee say about the Lewisham police officer?

[Nicholas]

And CAL thought it important enough to put in her book.

And for some reason she also thought it important to lump Julie into the caravan break-in with Bamber during the Mindhouse TV docuseries ?

Carol Ann Lee stated during the 3rd episode of the Mindhouse TV production,

‘When Julie Mugford went to the police she confessed to them that five months before the murders she and Jeremy had burgled his parents caravan site business - the night that they staged the break in Jeremy had actually persuaded his father not to bank the cash that was in the safe. They stole £980 that night which was a substantial amount of money at that time especially and they tried to make it look like an outside job’

Barbara Wilson then stated,

‘He heard about the robbery village gossip really. Mr Bamber said it was an outside job and a couple of days later he said erm we know who who did it and I actually did say was it someone quite near he said yes I’m afraid it was Jeremy but we don’t want other people to know

Carol Ann Lee then states,

‘Although it wasn’t on the level of the murders by any stretch of the imagination it does show certain traits in Jeremy’s personality erm it was a crime about money it was a crime committed against his parents he’d involved Julie beforehand during and afterwards and it also showed that he was capable of staging a crime scene

Julie was sat outside in the car, as Mick Ainsley stated, therefore she couldn’t have staged the crime scene

Although Mick Ainsley made the mistake of saying ‘The only evidence of the burglary was from Julie‘

There was also the evidence of Barbara Wilson ⬇️

‘He heard about the robbery village gossip really. Mr Bamber said it was an outside job and a couple of days later he said erm we know who who did it and I actually did say was it someone quite near he said yes I’m afraid it was Jeremy but we don’t want other people to know

I remain of the firm view she was manipulated by Bamber when he robbed the caravan site office

I don’t know how Carol Ann Lee has come to the conclusion Bamber involved Julie ‘beforehand during and afterwards’ ?

Julie was groomed by Bamber - he’s a psychopath

And his devaluing of her had started long before he committed the murders

[colsville]

Don’t be silly

How many mass murderers do you know who’ve sat down with a ‘sounding board’ before they’ve committed murder

At the very least we know he used her as a sounding board because he was bouncing ideas off of her.  He went through a number of scenarios discussing how to kill his family, who to kill and how to kill them. 

Mugford always says that she didn't take him seriously, which is probably why she allowed him to talk freely about committing his crimes. 

By openly discussing drugging the family, getting Mugford to let him use her sedatives to test out his theories about tranquilising everyone, and so on, that allows him to run through the alternatives and pick a most viable option.

I have no idea how a criminal mind works as I'm not a criminal and don't know any criminals.  But by looking at the facts as presented to us, and assuming Julie Mugford is telling the truth, then he was using her to test out his theories.

But we only have her side of the story.  Bamber is never going to admit any of this because he'd have to confess to the crime.  So his side of the story will never be known.

Their relationship was volatile from both sides, they had blazing rows and Mugford was a full participant in those arguments.  It wasn't one way traffic.

But at every stage of what happened there is an alternative explanation that is perfectly plausible, that Mugford was more of an accomplice than an unwitting confidant.

I'm not saying she was an accomplice, I am only recognising that such a scenario is plausible given the facts as we know them.

[Nicholas]

At the very least we know he used her as a sounding board because he was bouncing ideas off of her. 

‘Bouncing ideas off of her’  

He went through a number of scenarios discussing how to kill his family, who to kill and how to kill them. 

If Bamber was ‘bouncing ideas’ off of Julie he was also ‘bouncing ideas’ off of his friend Charles Marsden


Excerpts from Roger Wilkes book Blood Relations,
‘….another of Jeremy Bamber’s friends, the sales manager for a computer firm, called Charles Marsden. Marsden was also the boyfriend of Liz Rimington. He described how he’d become part of Jeremy’s set at the Frog and Beans wine bar in Colchester. He explained that in a crowd that included women, Jeremy would splash out with money to the extent that he could be called ‘flash’. ‘He was impressed by money,’ Marsden added. ‘He was impressed by people who spend a lot and the things that money could buy, such as expensive cars.’ Although he worked for a modest wage on his father’s farm, Jeremy had boasted that one day he would be a wealthy man. Marsden took this to mean that one day Jeremy expected to inherit his parents’ money.

‘In December 1984, Jeremy had announced that his entire family were getting together to celebrate Christmas. This was unusual. During a drinking session at a wine bar in Maldon, Jeremy had confided to Charles Marsden that if the farmhouse were to burn down over Christmas, everything would be his. ‘I thought at the time that this was a strange thing to say,’ Marsden reported, ‘but didn’t particularly take any notice.’

Mugford always says that she didn't take him seriously, which is probably why she allowed him to talk freely about committing his crimes. 

Charles Marsden also seemingly didn’t take Bamber ‘seriously’

What did Bamber say to Brett Collins for example about ‘committing his crimes’ which Brett has chosen not to speak openly about - like he’s done over the photos of Sheila? ⬇️

I believe Brett was the one who tried to broker the failed deal to sell images of Sheila to the Sun, so he must have been a very unsavoury character in those days,…’

What was the date Brett Collins flew over to the UK prior to the murders and what discussions did he and Bamber have with regards ‘committing crimes’ ?

And why does Brett Collins keep bringing up ‘mercenaries’?

Is this to keep the heat off of him?

[Nicholas]

Their relationship was volatile from both sides, they had blazing rows and Mugford was a full participant in those arguments.  It wasn't one way traffic.

According to Bamber’s 2010 interview with David James Smith - audio of which was heard during the MIndhouse productions docuseries - it was

Bamber apparently never lost his temper 🙄

Bamber stated to David James Smith (Which can be heard during episode 3)

‘You learn to control your emotions’

And in episode 1 Bamber makes the false claim to David James Smith,

‘I’ve never been violent, ever’

[colsville]

And for some reason she also thought it important to lump Julie into the caravan break-in with Bamber during the Mindhouse TV docuseries ?

Julie was sat outside in the car, as Mick Ainsley stated, therefore she couldn’t have staged the crime scene

Although Mick Ainsley made the mistake of saying ‘The only evidence of the burglary was from Julie‘

There was also the evidence of Barbara Wilson ⬇️

I remain of the firm view she was manipulated by Bamber when he robbed the caravan site office

I don’t know how Carol Ann Lee has come to the conclusion Bamber involved Julie ‘beforehand during and afterwards’ ?

Julie was groomed by Bamber - he’s a psychopath

And his devaluing of her had started long before he committed the murders

CAL's version of events as you have quoted is both consistent with what she wrote in her book, and also consistent with Mike Ainsley's assessment.

You are quoting two different people discussing the same persons witness statement, so there will be small differences in how they portray the story.


The following is CAL's version taken straight from her book...

Six months later, during the investigation into his family’s murders,
Jeremy admitted stealing the money. Julie had acted as his lookout and gave
a full account of the matter, recalling how the two of them had driven out to
Mill Beach Hotel after supper that evening. They parked the car and walked
along the seafront to the shop. ‘He held my hand and we walked to the
office,’ Julie recalled. ‘When we got there Jeremy told me to wait out of
sight which I did. I saw him put his hand through the letter box to find the
key which he knew would be there. He could not get the key so asked if I
could reach it. I couldn’t reach it and so he tried again and succeeded in
getting it.’6 He told her to keep watch while he went inside. After fifteen
minutes, he reappeared, having ransacked the office to make it look like a
random break-in. He put the key back through the letter box and smashed
the window. ‘Then he grabbed hold of my hand and we started to run back
the way we came,’ Julie stated.


By Mugfords own admission, she was a fully paid up participant of the caravan park theft.

[Nicholas]

CAL's version of events as you have quoted is both consistent with what she wrote in her book, and also consistent with Mike Ainsley's assessment.

You are quoting two different people discussing the same persons witness statement, so there will be small differences in how they portray the story.

They will yes and there will be various factors as to how and why they ‘portray the story’ differently

The following is CAL's version taken straight from her book...

Six months later, during the investigation into his family’s murders,
Jeremy admitted stealing the money. Julie had acted as his lookout and gave
a full account of the matter, recalling how the two of them had driven out to
Mill Beach Hotel after supper that evening. They parked the car

There’s a problem already in the way in which Carol Ann Lee has chosen to write the above

Unless the car being driven was duel control - like some of the cars you use when learning to drive - only one of them was driving and ‘they’ couldn’t have ‘parked the car’ - only one of them would have been able to do this

[colsville]

I don’t agree with Carol Ann Lee’s interpretations on some of the things she’s written in her book - although I’ve only read what’s available on google books - I’ve not read the entire thing

What did Carol Ann Lee say about the Lewisham police officer?

When Mugford went to Lewisham police station on Bamber's instructions from the 5:40am(?) phone call, I can't remember how much he told her.  I can't remember if she had been told beforehand whether the whole family were dead, or just that there had been a serious incident.

This is how her interaction with Lewisham police is written in CAL's book:

At quarter past eleven they were joined by DS Stan Jones and ten
minutes later Julie arrived. The first police officer who spoke to her that
morning in Lewisham had been surprised when, in response to his question
of whether she understood there had been a serious incident involving her
boyfriend’s family, she replied calmly, ‘Yes. Sheila, his sister, had been
behaving strangely the weekend before.’2 Constable Jonathan Turner was
tasked with driving her to Tolleshunt D’Arcy: ‘She seemed very confident
and appeared intelligent. She didn’t seem at all anxious and in fact, was
very relaxed. She showed no signs of concern or anxiety.’3 Her only
reference to the shootings was the unprompted comment: ‘I hope I don’t
have to see any bodies.’

[Nicholas]

But at every stage of what happened there is an alternative explanation that is perfectly plausible, that Mugford was more of an accomplice than an unwitting confidant.

I'm not saying she was an accomplice, I am only recognising that such a scenario is plausible given the facts as we know them.

Why’s about Brett Collins ?

What did he know ?

‘Over time I've thought about things that he did, and how he used to speak, and how greedy he was with money’

How did Bamber ‘used to speak’ to Brett Collins? What did he say exactly?

He flew over to visit Bamber prior to the murders and even left some clothes behind at Goldhanger before heading to Greece

What conversations did he and Bamber have?

‘I've still got a very clear memory of everything that happened and I'm now sure he staged it all on the day of the murders’

And why does Brett Collins keep making reference to mercenaries ?

‘….I think he paid someone to do it, which is quite common. If you want someone gone you can pay one of these ex-army types’

‘He was quite good at planning things, and he was a thinker’

How did Brett Collins know Bamber was a thinker - was it because Bamber used him as a ‘sounding board’ ?

Was Bamber ‘bouncing ideas off of’ Brett Collins prior to the murders?

Brett Collins lies ⬇️ and especially by omission

‘I got a lawyer to represent Jeremy at his court case and at that stage I believed in him.’

It was Anji Greaves who spoke with her godfather Sir David Napley who was a well known London solicitor back then apparently

So it wasn’t Brett Collins who got Bamber a lawyer to represent him it was Anji Greaves


Sources:
https://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/chilling-slip-jeremy-bamber-made-21476865
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/119648317/so-my-best-friend-turned-out-to-be-a-mass-murderer

[Nicholas]

By Mugfords own admission, she was a fully paid up participant of the caravan park theft.

Julie Mugford was manipulated

Brett Collins on the other hand doesn’t appear to have been the type of person who could be manipulated

He’s clearly a fraudster ⬇️

Auckland man fined $50k for illegally trading motor vehicles
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/auckland-man-fined-50k-for-illegally-trading-motor-vehicles/JVHA24BQAXIFXXE4D7DIBZPWTY/

Brett Collins most recent fraudulent criminal activities appear to have occurred only a few years ago

I’m of the view he knows far more about Bamber’s plans to murder his family than he’s ever let on

Brett Collins has been given the opportunity several times - with payment it seems - to tell the truth

But - on one hand he appears to accept Bambers guilt and on the other he seems to want to create doubt

Why?

What is motivating Brett Collins to give these mixed messages?

And why did he recently refer to Colchester’s army barracks and men with tattoos ?

What exactly did Brett Collins and Bamber speak about when Brett first flew to the UK?

Barbara Wilson stated (Episode 3)

‘He was getting into bad company’ - seemingly she was referring to Brett Collins

Who - it should be noted - had purchased a plane ticket to London from New Zealand ‘a couple of months before the murders’

When Brett Collins refers to his time spent with Bamber - ‘a couple of months before the murders’

He states,

‘Jeremy was very excited to have a friend thst he could go out clubbing with’

Was Bamber also ‘excited’ to have someone like Brett Collins who he could use as his ‘sounding board’?

Bamber was planning a massive crime and he would have needed someone to talk about it too.  He couldn't organise and plan it without confiding in someone.

Brett Collins would be the more likely candidate for Bamber to confide in about his plans

I firmly suspect Brett Collins was ‘that someone’

How many mass murderers do you know who’ve sat down with a ‘sounding board’ before they’ve committed murder

If Bamber did need a ‘sounding board’ it would have been Brett Collins - who Bamber was idealising a couple of months before the murders - if what Brett Collins has said recently is true in that Bamber was ‘excited’

Did anyone notice how Brett Collins face lit up when he was recalling - in episode 3 of the Mindhouse docuseries - the ‘lines of cocaine’ in the ‘lav’ of Stringfello’s nightlclub ?

[Nicholas]

This is how her interaction with Lewisham police is written in CAL's book:

At quarter past eleven they were joined by DS Stan Jones and ten
minutes later Julie arrived. The first police officer who spoke to her that
morning in Lewisham had been surprised when, in response to his question
of whether she understood there had been a serious incident involving her
boyfriend’s family, she replied calmly, ‘Yes. Sheila, his sister, had been
behaving strangely the weekend before.’2 Constable Jonathan Turner was
tasked with driving her to Tolleshunt D’Arcy: ‘She seemed very confident
and appeared intelligent. She didn’t seem at all anxious and in fact, was
very relaxed. She showed no signs of concern or anxiety.’3 Her only
reference to the shootings was the unprompted comment: ‘I hope I don’t
have to see any bodies.’

Where can I read Jonathan Turner‘s police witness statement ?

[Nicholas]

I’m of the view he knows far more about Bamber’s plans to murder his family than he’s ever let on

What is motivating Brett Collins to give these mixed messages?

When Brett Collins refers to his time spent with Bamber - ‘a couple of months before the murders’

He states,

‘Jeremy was very excited to have a friend thst he could go out clubbing with’

Yet also during the Mindhouse docuseries Brett Collins stated Bamber was on his own when he went out clubbing when the ‘drug deal’ went wrong

Was Bamber really on his own or did Brett Collins choose to say Bamber went out on his own so as to give the impression he wasn’t involved in the drugs deal?

Brett Collins stated,

If he had drugs or alcohol he would lose that polished personality’

How did Brett Collins behave under these circumstances ?

Brett Collins goes on to state,

‘He thought you know he was invincible’

Watch Brett Collins face again light up when he says this (Episode 3 around 40:10)

[Nicholas]

Carol Ann Lee from 2015 ⬇️

‘I'd rather not say’
‘I want people to approach the book with an open mind: to look at the evidence, and draw their own conclusions’
https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/13520876.did-jeremy-bamber-kill-his-family-30-years-ago-make-up-your-own-mind-says-local-author-carol-ann-lee/

My conclusion (Although I’ve not read CAL’s book only snippets) is that if anyone really ‘knew’ about Bambers plans it was Brett Collins not Julie

I don’t agree with CAL here https://theglobalherald.com/entertainment/television-entertainment/ep-3-the-evidence-the-murders-at-white-house-farm-the-podcast-hbo-max/ at around 28.00 Julie ‘knew’ that the murders he’d been talking about had happened that night

So far we’ve only heard about Brett Collins coming back from Greece

What motivated him in the first place to go out there?

How long was he there for?

Who was he with?

What was he doing while he was there?

Why - during the Mindhouse docuseries - did Brett Collins refer to his ‘friend’ who was a lawyer who apparently lived in New York - what was the relevance of this to the ‘Bamber’ story?

[Nicholas]

I believe Brett was the one who tried to broker the failed deal to sell images of Sheila to the Sun, so he must have been a very unsavoury character in those days

And could still be described as an ‘unsavoury character’

He’s clearly a fraudster ⬇️
Auckland man fined $50k for illegally trading motor vehicles
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/auckland-man-fined-50k-for-illegally-trading-motor-vehicles/JVHA24BQAXIFXXE4D7DIBZPWTY/

How long was Brett Collins in the UK with Bamber prior to the murders and what did they get up to during this time?

[Nicholas]

The CT has also stated David Napley was apparently Anji (& Virginia ?) Greaves godfather

’During this time Anji Greaves, the sister of Virginia - Jeremy’s girlfriend at the time - told him she would ask her godfather Sir David Napley* of Kingsley Napley solicitors if he would be able to help with Jeremy’s defence case…’

‘Private Eye, Public Lives’
https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=48&v=TLXhl7B28Cc&feature=emb_logo

Where does this nugget fit in ⬇️

Why - during the Mindhouse docuseries - did Brett Collins refer to his ‘friend’ who was a lawyer who apparently lived in New York - what was the relevance of this to the ‘Bamber’ story?

Did Bamber and Brett Collins talk about the plans to murder the family and discuss what would happen if Bamber were caught and who would represent him?

‘I got a lawyer to represent Jeremy at his court case and at that stage I believed in him.’

Did he ?

‘He was quite good at planning things, and he was a thinker’

‘Planning’ what exactly - to murder his family?