Author Topic: The Bambers: Murder at the farm - Sky Crime documentary  (Read 97011 times)

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Offline colsville

Re: The Bambers: Murder at the farm - Sky Crime documentary
« Reply #360 on: September 30, 2021, 01:28:40 PM »
What do make of the way the ‘patchwork’ has been pieced together - like for example when Barbara Wilson says something like Bamber had falling in with the wrong crowd then the next clip is of a plane and airport and then
Brett Collins?

And Carol Ann Lee lumping Julie all in with the caravan burglary but then Mick Ainsley then being filmed saying she was sat outside in the car?

How do you think people like Brett Collins and Carol Ann Lee will feel about the way it’s been edited and presented and how they’ve been portrayed?



I think with Barbara Wilson reference, Brett Collins was the only contributor to the programme who shared with  Bamber those drug fuelled, nightclub days.   I can only remember one other 'friend' who made a contribution, and I'm not sure he was involved so much with his kind of 'playboy' image (or wannabe playboy image).

I believe Brett was the one who tried to broker the failed deal to sell images of Sheila to the Sun, so he must have been a very unsavoury character in those days, which chimes with BW's comment.

With Julie Mugford, I'm not sure of her actual level of involvement in the burglary, obviously Jeremy was boss, and it was his idea, but Julie always seems to be by his side when he planned his criminal activities.  There is a possibility (although no real evidence) that she watered down her level of involvement to the police for all the crimes that Jeremy committed.

Carol Ann Lee spent 4 or 5 years researching and writing her book, and apart from the huge amount of detail in the book, it is also objective in its tone.  It doesn't take sides (apart from at the end), so I'd be inclined to believe Carol Ann Lee.

This documentary was purely just a series of talking heads with some archive footage.  There was no independent analysis whatsoever of anything, apart from what a a couple of interviewees said.  Nothing though, from Bamber supporters.

Brett Collins comes across well,  he didn't have to say anything about the unsavoury things he got up to with Bamber.

Carol Ann Lee got to make her little speech at the end about defending Sheila, so I'll think she'll be happy overall.  CAL has always stuck up for Sheila, and had wanted Sheila's story to be told in the ITV drama, and she said it was the only thing about the ITV drama that disappointed her.

Offline Nicholas

Re: The Bambers: Murder at the farm - Sky Crime documentary
« Reply #361 on: September 30, 2021, 02:39:19 PM »
Carol Ann Lee spent 4 or 5 years researching and writing her book, and apart from the huge amount of detail in the book, it is also objective in its tone.  It doesn't take sides (apart from at the end), so I'd be inclined to believe Carol Ann Lee.

This documentary was purely just a series of talking heads with some archive footage.  There was no independent analysis whatsoever of anything, apart from what a a couple of interviewees said.

Carol Ann Lee got to make her little speech at the end about defending Sheila, so I'll think she'll be happy overall.  CAL has always stuck up for Sheila, and had wanted Sheila's story to be told in the ITV drama, and she said it was the only thing about the ITV drama that disappointed her.

In 2015 Carol Ann Lee was asked something like,

So is he, a psychopath? After reading his constant protestations of innocence, does she believe him - or does she think he is, after all, guilty?’

Her reply back in July 2015 was,

‘I'd rather not say’
‘I want people to approach the book with an open mind: to look at the evidence, and draw their own conclusions

https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/13520876.did-jeremy-bamber-kill-his-family-30-years-ago-make-up-your-own-mind-says-local-author-carol-ann-lee/


However in her own article for the Daily Mail made around the same time (July 2015) she stated,


He has professed his innocence ever since. However, the psychiatrist engaged by Bamber’s defence team said that his very real belief that he had not committed the murders was a prime reason for diagnosing him as a psychopath.
Concluding that he did kill his family and had suppressed the knowledge until it no longer existed, he added: ‘If ever there was a psychopath, it’s Jeremy Bamber.’

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3157376/Now-know-Bamber-did-Crime-writer-s-definitive-verdict-public-schoolboy-slaughtered-entire-family-30-years-ago-tried-frame-dead-sister-protested-innocence.html


Fast forward to 2020 - Media headlines on Carol Ann Lee read,


Jeremy Bamber ‘new evidence’ slammed by woman who ‘doesn’t doubt he's guilty’’
But author Carol Ann Lee said "nothing" made her doubt Bamber's guilt and claims the evidence is "absolutely not new."
‘She told Sun Online: "Nothing I saw made me doubt his guilt. There really wasn’t anything, from my personal view point.’

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/jeremy-bamber-new-evidence-slammed-21339100


What was it about the ITV drama series disappointed Carol Ann Lee?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 03:05:32 PM by Nicholas »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: The Bambers: Murder at the farm - Sky Crime documentary
« Reply #362 on: September 30, 2021, 03:15:40 PM »
I think with Barbara Wilson reference, Brett Collins was the only contributor to the programme who shared with  Bamber those drug fuelled, nightclub days.   I can only remember one other 'friend' who made a contribution, and I'm not sure he was involved so much with his kind of 'playboy' image (or wannabe playboy image).

Are you referring to Rodney Brown - then owner of the Caribbean cottage ?
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: The Bambers: Murder at the farm - Sky Crime documentary
« Reply #363 on: September 30, 2021, 03:26:22 PM »
I believe Brett was the one who tried to broker the failed deal to sell images of Sheila to the Sun, so he must have been a very unsavoury character in those days, which chimes with BW's comment.

On his own?

This is what the CT are suggesting now too - at around 5:40 ⬇️

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/jeremy-bamber-and-white-house-farm/id1555731881?i=1000536946527
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 04:54:09 PM by Nicholas »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: The Bambers: Murder at the farm - Sky Crime documentary
« Reply #364 on: September 30, 2021, 03:27:25 PM »
With Julie Mugford, I'm not sure of her actual level of involvement in the burglary, obviously Jeremy was boss, and it was his idea, but Julie always seems to be by his side when he planned his criminal activities.  There is a possibility (although no real evidence) that she watered down her level of involvement to the police for all the crimes that Jeremy committed.

Point me to Julie’s evidence you think she ‘watered down’

She was clearly in a toxic relationship

Further excerpt from Roger Wilkes book Blood Relations
’JEREMY BAMBER SAID that he had jilted Julie Mugford, and now Geoffrey Rivlin needed to prove it to the jury. At the start of his cross-examination, he drew from Julie the admission that she had been in love with Jeremy Bamber, and that she had wanted very much to marry him. There was some doubt over whether Jeremy could father children, she said, but throughout the first flush of the romance, marriage remained a serious possibility. However, she added, at the time of the killings at White House Farm in August 1985, she was unhappy with Jeremy. ‘I was either extremely upset with him, or happy with him,’ Julie explained. ‘It was very erratic.’ Even after she had denounced Jeremy to the police, she remained in love with him. As she put it: ‘I loved him, but I didn’t know whether I could live with him or be with him. But my emotion towards him didn’t change, apart from the fact that I found it difficult to be physically close to him. There was a terror that now had been created. I still loved him.’

Julie, and Brett Collins, recalled incidents where Bamber displayed violence towards her, others and inanimate objects

Excerpt for one of Julies witness statements
I asked him why he had smashed the door and he told me he was upset that I should believe a girl from the village who I did not know and not him about the three in a bed incident.’
He and Collins frequented the nightspots of Auckland, and he recalls Bamber being a Jekyll and Hyde character who didn't get on easily with his friends. Bamber got kicked out of one upmarket bar for being aggressive.
"When he got out of it he changed, he could be quite nasty.
"He upset a lot of my friends. They didn't want to know him. He'd be really forceful in his thoughts."
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/119648317/so-my-best-friend-turned-out-to-be-a-mass-murderer
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 03:48:23 PM by Nicholas »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: The Bambers: Murder at the farm - Sky Crime documentary
« Reply #365 on: September 30, 2021, 03:54:13 PM »
Nothing though, from Bamber supporters.

Have you forgotten about Lorraine - who Mindhouse used to start off their first episode ?
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: The Bambers: Murder at the farm - Sky Crime documentary
« Reply #366 on: September 30, 2021, 04:05:19 PM »
Brett Collins comes across well,  he didn't have to say anything about the unsavoury things he got up to with Bamber.

Other than loading a van with furniture - what unsavoury things did he say he got up to with Bamber during the recent docuseries ?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 04:50:25 PM by Nicholas »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: The Bambers: Murder at the farm - Sky Crime documentary
« Reply #367 on: September 30, 2021, 04:58:05 PM »
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/jeremy-bamber-and-white-house-farm/id1555731881?i=1000536946527

Interestingly the CT have chosen to only mention Rodney Brown going to collect Bamber - no mention of Angela Greaves being with him

After the hearing, Jeremy was met by Rodney Brown, owner of the Caribbean cottage, who had borrowed a white Jaguar for the occasion. Sitting beside him was Angela Greaves, Virginias older sister. A beautician six years Jeremy’s senior, ‘Anji’ had quickly grown close to Jeremy following his visits with Virginia. ‘The poor chap was on Valium and he was drinking. He had no body to turn to. His relatives were fighting over everything. It was awful, absolutely awful.’ Anji later told the Sun that she and Jeremy became lovers before his arrest and that it was their affair, rather than his with her sister, that had led to Julie being so inflamed with jealousy  that she named his as the murderer.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Rj14BwAAQBAJ&pg=PA317&lpg=PA317&dq=jeremy+bamber+rodney+brown+anji&source=bl&ots=h8PnOFTeYj&sig=ACfU3U25vYTa3CZuagVZ6JIVTldkpqFrCQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjC6MnRs4TpAhWJXhUIHQ3YDioQ6AEwAHoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=jeremy%20bamber%20rodney%20brown%20anji&f=false

And it was a white ‘Daimler’ apparently not a ‘white Jaguar’

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimler_Sovereign

 @)(++(*


The CT appear to be referring to some of the police surveillance records

The police surveillance records apparently states,

Jeremy spent Sunday in convent garden with a further visit to the gym and in the evening he met up with his friend Angela Greaves and they went for a meal together before Jeremy made his was back alone to Sheila’s flat


The CT has also stated David Napley* was apparently Anji (& Virginia ?) Greaves godfather

’During this time Anji Greaves, the sister of Virginia - Jeremy’s girlfriend at the time - told him she would ask her godfather Sir David Napley* of Kingsley Napley solicitors if he would be able to help with Jeremy’s defence case…’


There is also reference to Carol Ann Lee and her ‘poorly researched’ book  @)(++(*

I remain of the view Carol Ann Lee’s book has been meticulously researched - although as I don’t agree with all of her interpretations

*Napley had a particular interest in miscarriages of justice. He was instrumental in setting up the Tom Sargant Memorial lecture and gave the first lecture in 1989. In that lecture he called for an independent tribunal to deal with miscarriage of justice cases. Partly as a result of Napley's reputation and wide-ranging influence, the Criminal Cases Review Commission was eventually established 14 years later.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Napley

Star solicitor helped VIP avoid paedophilia prosecution
https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/law/star-solicitor-helped-vip-avoid-paedophilia-prosecution/5103226.article

’Peter Hayman named as VIP who sexually abused boys at Dolphin Square apartment complex near Parliament’
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2827378/Diplomat-Peter-Hayman-named-VIP-sexually-abused-boys-Dolphin-Square-apartment-complex-near-Parliament.html
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 06:03:06 PM by Nicholas »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: The Bambers: Murder at the farm - Sky Crime documentary
« Reply #368 on: September 30, 2021, 06:06:18 PM »
The CT has also stated David Napley* was apparently Anji (& Virginia ?) Greaves godfather

During this time Anji Greaves, the sister of Virginia - Jeremy’s girlfriend at the time - told him she would ask her godfather Sir David Napley* of Kingsley Napley solicitors if he would be able to help with Jeremy’s defence case…’


’Allegations of child sexual abuse linked to Westminster Investigation Report’
https://www.iicsa.org.uk/reports-recommendations/publications/investigation/westminster/part-h-prosecutorial-decisions/h3-sir-peter-hayman


Did Bamber tell Aunt Agatha of the Greaves sisters alleged links to David Napley ?

I’m guessing if true Bamber would have known this when he supposedly turned up at Anji Greaves flat in Kensington, London ‘two days after his parents were buried’
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 06:47:30 PM by Nicholas »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: The Bambers: Murder at the farm - Sky Crime documentary
« Reply #369 on: September 30, 2021, 07:25:28 PM »
I’m guessing if true Bamber would have known this when he supposedly turned up at Anji Greaves flat in Kensington, London ‘two days after his parents were buried’

Changes the narrative too and makes sense why Bamber seemingly targeted the Greave sisters

’Jeremy wanted Sir David Napley, the best-known solicitor in London, to defend him. Napley’s reputation for taking on tough defences was as imposing as his gold-coloured Rolls-Royce. (Jeremy approached the seventy-old Sir David through his new girlfriend, Anji Greaves, sister of Virginia.)
http://youknowwhokilledyoudontyou.blogspot.com/2011/02/innocent-man-part-11.html

Anji Greaves married in July 1985

And it seems none of those people who support him have a clue about whether he was with Anji or Virginia

Excerpt from Roger Wilkes Blood Relations
’From the moment he was arrested and charged on five counts of murder, Jeremy went to great lengths to see that his defence was as highly tuned as possible. He took the view that a local firm of solicitors, unused to assembling and running the defence in a high-profile murder trial, simply would not do. ‘Because of the seriousness of the charges,’ he wrote in a letter to Bruce Bowler, ‘the unusual – if not bizarre – circumstances surrounding this case and the fact of my entire innocence, I require a solicitor of immense skill and experience of complicated cases, and the backing of a very substantial team to support him, to secure my freedom.’ Bamber wanted a major player. He wanted Sir David Napley.
In 1985, Sir David was probably the best-known solicitor in London, with a reputation for tackling tough defences. In 1979, he prepared the defence for the former Liberal Party leader, Jeremy Thorpe, when he was accused of conspiracy to murder. Jeremy Bamber approached Sir David two days after his first remand appearance, through his new girlfriend, Anji Greaves, sister of Virginia.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 07:35:23 PM by Nicholas »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: The Bambers: Murder at the farm - Sky Crime documentary
« Reply #370 on: September 30, 2021, 07:55:37 PM »
Changes the narrative too and makes sense why Bamber seemingly targeted the Greave sisters

And I suspect it was all part of his plan
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: The Bambers: Murder at the farm - Sky Crime documentary
« Reply #371 on: September 30, 2021, 08:37:09 PM »
Changes the narrative too and makes sense why Bamber seemingly targeted the Greave sisters

Bamber clearly discarded them both after he no longer had use for them
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline colsville

Re: The Bambers: Murder at the farm - Sky Crime documentary
« Reply #372 on: September 30, 2021, 08:44:03 PM »
Point me to Julie’s evidence you think she ‘watered down’

She was clearly in a toxic relationship

Julie, and Brett Collins, recalled incidents where Bamber displayed violence towards her, others and inanimate objects

Excerpt for one of Julies witness statements


No actual evidence that she watered anything down, but when she met with Lewisham police who were going to take her to WHF on the morning of the murders, Julie Mugfords response to being told the whole family was dead, and it looks like Sheila did it....Julie Mugfords immediate verbal response was something like:  Yes, Sheila had been acting strangely for a week or so.   

Not even an 'oh my god', no hands up to face in shock.  Nothing.

That response might be the kind of thing you say if you had scripted an answer before hand, possibly designed to add credence to the idea that Sheila was unstable and capable of killing her family.  To me, it's suspicious.  And the police officer who witnessed it also thought it was a strange reaction.  And CAL thought it important enough to put in her book.

There was no shocked reaction, or even surprise.   Then in the car and completely unprompted she said that she hoped she didn't have to see any dead bodies.  She was as calm as you like when she said it.

It's just a strange response.  In reality, Sheila hadn't been acting strange in the weeks up to the murders.  So why did Julie Mugford say it?  Where did that sentence come from?

Bamber may have displayed violence against Mugford, but she gave as good as she got.  She wasn't scared of him.  When they split up she smashed a mirror in Sheila's flat and hit Bamber, which is criminal damage and common assault on her part.  Both Mugford and Bamber tell the same story about that incident.  Julie then gets pinned down on the bed by Bamber, and she says to him, I'll tell the police.  That last bit is her version of the story.  She was happy to hit back at Bamber, and Bamber let her hit him back.

Mugford's official story say's to me that she was Bamber's sounding board.  Bamber was planning a massive crime and he would have needed someone to talk about it too.  He couldn't organise and plan it without confiding in someone. She was that someone. 

How much more than that Julie might have been, will never be known.  But there was suspicious behaviour from her.  The events that are known make it plausible that she helped him organise it, and that therefore she was a fully fledged participant.  There's just nowhere near enough evidence to prove it.  But it is plausible.

Offline Nicholas

Re: The Bambers: Murder at the farm - Sky Crime documentary
« Reply #373 on: September 30, 2021, 10:04:19 PM »

The CT has also stated David Napley* was apparently Anji (& Virginia ?) Greaves godfather

’During this time Anji Greaves, the sister of Virginia - Jeremy’s girlfriend at the time - told him she would ask her godfather Sir David Napley* of Kingsley Napley solicitors if he would be able to help with Jeremy’s defence case…’

Roger Wilkes
He wanted Sir David Napley. In 1985, Sir David was probably the best-known solicitor in London, with a reputation for tackling tough defences. In 1979, he prepared the defence for the former Liberal Party leader, Jeremy Thorpe, when he was accused of conspiracy to murder. Jeremy Bamber approached Sir David two days after his first remand appearance, through his new girlfriend, Anji Greaves, sister of Virginia.
According to Anji Greaves, Bamber had taken up with her two days after his parents’ funeral. They had been friends for years, but never lovers. But when Jeremy called at her London flat to ask her advice on getting rid of Julie Mugford, the couple ended up in
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 10:12:29 PM by Nicholas »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: The Bambers: Murder at the farm - Sky Crime documentary
« Reply #374 on: September 30, 2021, 10:18:50 PM »
Mugford's official story say's to me that she was Bamber's sounding board.  Bamber was planning a massive crime and he would have needed someone to talk about it too.  He couldn't organise and plan it without confiding in someone. She was that someone. 

Don’t be silly

How many mass murderers do you know who’ve sat down with a ‘sounding board’ before they’ve committed murder
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 10:40:46 PM by Nicholas »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation