"Laughable eyewitness testimony"

[Joe Blogs]

Hi, I'm Marion O'Sullivan, let's just clear this up, I most definitely 1 million percent know the person I saw was not luke Mitchell. How can I be so sure you may ask, because I'd seen luke Mitchell and Jodie Jones walk past my mother in laws house on many occasions, no I had never spoken to either of them, but I sure as hell would of recognised him,

If you're certain it wasn't LM then you must have seen the persons face? can you give a description, Marion?

[Mr Apples]

Hi, I'm Marion O'Sullivan, let's just clear this up, I most definitely 1 million percent know the person I saw was not luke Mitchell. How can I be so sure you may ask, because I'd seen luke Mitchell and Jodie Jones walk past my mother in laws house on many occasions, no I had never spoken to either of them, but I sure as hell would of recognised him,

Hi Marion, and welcome to the forum! I have a couple of questions to ask you in regard to your sighting that day: when the police came to see you & your partner back in 2003, did you tell them at that particular time that it wasn't Luke Mitchell you saw on the Newbattle Road? Or did you tell them you weren't really sure? I am not talking about what you said in court in November/December 2004, I am talking about what you said to police back in 2003 before the trial. Also, did you see anyone else on the road as you and your partner drove by? And why did you say that the boy you saw on the road was acting "suspiciously"? The interesting thing here is that 3 boys on pushbikes who knew Luke Mitchell personally cycled past him at approximately the same time as you saw him, but they said it was definitely him. Those boys were also on the same side of the road as Luke Mitchell was so they had a closer look than you. These boys also said they never saw anyone else on the road that day -- only Luke Mitchell. Another 3 witnesses -- Rosemary Walsh, Lorraine Fleming & Carol Heatlie (all of whom didn't know Luke Mitchell) -- saw him on the Newbattle Road between 1740 - 1805 acting suspiciously and were sure it was him. These 3 women also said there was no one else standing on the Newbattle Road when they drove along it.

[Joe Blogs]

Hi Marion, and welcome to the forum! I have a couple of questions to ask you in regard to your sighting that day: when the police came to see you & your partner back in 2003, did you tell them at that particular time that it wasn't Luke Mitchell you saw on the Newbattle Road? Or did you tell them you weren't really sure? I am not talking about what you said in court in November/December 2004, I am talking about what you said to police back in 2003 before the trial. Also, did you see anyone else on the road as you and your partner drove by? And why did you say that the boy you saw on the road was acting "suspiciously"? The interesting thing here is that 3 boys on pushbikes who knew Luke Mitchell personally cycled past him at approximately the same time as you saw him, but they said it was definitely him. Those boys were also on the same side of the road as Luke Mitchell was so they had a closer look than you. These boys also said they never saw anyone else on the road that day -- only Luke Mitchell. Another 3 witnesses -- Rosemary Walsh, Lorraine Fleming & Carol Heatlie (all of whom didn't know Luke Mitchell) -- saw him on the Newbattle Road between 1740 - 1805 acting suspiciously and were sure it was him. These 3 women also said there was no one else standing on the Newbattle Road when they drove along it.

Well lets just take it that the person Marion saw around 6.00 that day was not Luke, Mr Apples and proceed from there for the moment shall we?
Obviously that means that both LM and the 'other guy in similar attire' were both standing in Newbattle Rd at the same time, Luke at Barondale cottages and the other guy by the wooden gate.
Now this does make sense when you think about it, Luke was seen by Carol Heatlie looking up and down the road to see if Jodi was coming, yet the guy at the gate simply looked suspicious and evasive. Why would Luke openly look for Jodi while standing at Barondale cottages only to avert his gaze from passers by while standing at the gate? This alone suggests two different people.
Now, I see where you're coming from, Mr Apples, you want to know where the guy buy the gate came from, where he went and why didn't the witnesses see both Luke and the 'other guy' as they passed by?
Well, the most obvious place that the 'other guy' came from must surely be RDP, and he must have crossed the road to the wooden gate sometime before Flemying and Walsh passed by.
Now, you say, why didn't Flem/Walsh also see LM standing at the entrance to Barondale cottages? well simply because he was probably standing in the driveway at the time having a smoke, just back from the pavement and out of view. This is why Marion O'Sullivan failed to spot Luke too.
The bike boys on the otherhand couldn't miss Luke passing by slowly, and nor could Carol Heatlie as Luke happened to be standing on the pavement looking up and down the road at the time.
Now you may ask, why didn't the push bike boys or Carol Heatlie see the 'other guy' standing by the wooden gate as they passed by? Well obviously the 'other guy' had skedadled by around 6.00 before the bike boys/Heatlie arrived!
This means the 'other guy' must have left the scene soon after Marion passed by him,  just before the bike boys/Heatlie arrived on the scene.
So where did the 'other guy' go? Well he couldn't have set off in the direction of the Home farm else the bike boys would have passed him, and he didn't walk past Luke. So that just leaves two options, either he re-entered RDP or he went into the Tool hire entrance.
Now, I suppose we have to ask why the 'other guy' emerged onto Newbattle Rd and stood by the gate for about 15 minutes or so before disappearing again? Presuming that he was the killer of course! And that isn't easy to answer! Maybe he heard something or somebody while at the crime scene and scarpered quickly through the V and along the path to Newbattle Road.
The thing is, I don't think the killer would have fled across the open field anyway when he left the crime scene and risk being seen? Even if the killer lived in the direction of the Abbey it would be less risky taking the long way home?
Still doesn't explain standing on Newbattle Rd for any length of time though? Mind you, he was probably quite physically and emotionally knackered after carrying out such an atrocity? Besides, we cant be sure how long he stood by the gate?
Oh well, just a few thoughts in reply to Marions post!
Any other theories, appart from the obvious, that it was Luke standing by the wooden gate?

[Mr Apples]

Well lets just take it that the person Marion saw around 6.00 that day was not Luke, Mr Apples and proceed from there for the moment shall we?
Obviously that means that both LM and the 'other guy in similar attire' were both standing in Newbattle Rd at the same time, Luke at Barondale cottages and the other guy by the wooden gate.
Now this does make sense when you think about it, Luke was seen by Carol Heatlie looking up and down the road to see if Jodi was coming, yet the guy at the gate simply looked suspicious and evasive. Why would Luke openly look for Jodi while standing at Barondale cottages only to avert his gaze from passers by while standing at the gate? This alone suggests two different people.
Now, I see where you're coming from, Mr Apples, you want to know where the guy buy the gate came from, where he went and why didn't the witnesses see both Luke and the 'other guy' as they passed by?
Well, the most obvious place that the 'other guy' came from must surely be RDP, and he must have crossed the road to the wooden gate sometime before Flemying and Walsh passed by.
Now, you say, why didn't Flem/Walsh also see LM standing at the entrance to Barondale cottages? well simply because he was probably standing in the driveway at the time having a smoke, just back from the pavement and out of view. This is why Marion O'Sullivan failed to spot Luke too.
The bike boys on the otherhand couldn't miss Luke passing by slowly, and nor could Carol Heatlie as Luke happened to be standing on the pavement looking up and down the road at the time.
Now you may ask, why didn't the push bike boys or Carol Heatlie see the 'other guy' standing by the wooden gate as they passed by? Well obviously the 'other guy' had skedadled by around 6.00 before the bike boys/Heatlie arrived!
This means the 'other guy' must have left the scene soon after Marion passed by him,  just before the bike boys/Heatlie arrived on the scene.
So where did the 'other guy' go? Well he couldn't have set off in the direction of the Home farm else the bike boys would have passed him, and he didn't walk past Luke. So that just leaves two options, either he re-entered RDP or he went into the Tool hire entrance.
Now, I suppose we have to ask why the 'other guy' emerged onto Newbattle Rd and stood by the gate for about 15 minutes or so before disappearing again? Presuming that he was the killer of course! And that isn't easy to answer! Maybe he heard something or somebody while at the crime scene and scarpered quickly through the V and along the path to Newbattle Road.
The thing is, I don't think the killer would have fled across the open field anyway when he left the crime scene and risk being seen? Even if the killer lived in the direction of the Abbey it would be less risky taking the long way home?
Still doesn't explain standing on Newbattle Rd for any length of time though? Mind you, he was probably quite physically and emotionally knackered after carrying out such an atrocity? Besides, we cant be sure how long he stood by the gate?
Oh well, just a few thoughts in reply to Marions post!
Any other theories, appart from the obvious, that it was Luke standing by the wooden gate?

Hi, JB.

LF & RW said it was categorically Luke Mitchell standing at the gate at 1740ish; they were in no doubt it was him. Also, as per previous posts on this forum with cites, Mark Kane was ruled out via DNA  (i.e., his wasn't found on Jodi or near the locus). LM was spotted with Jodi at 1655 hrs by Andrina Bryson arguing with her at the Easthouses end of the Roan's Dyke Path and then was spotted alone & acting suspiciously by 8 separate witnesses on the Newbattle Road, between 1740 - 1820. Let's face it, the principles of Occam's razor tell us that it was Luke Mitchell Marion & her parther saw at just before 1800 at Barondale Cottages.

[Joe Blogs]

Hi, JB.

LF & RW said it was categorically Luke Mitchell standing at the gate at 1740ish; they were in no doubt it was him. Also, as per previous posts on this forum with cites, Mark Kane was ruled out via DNA  (i.e., his wasn't found on Jodi or near the locus). LM was spotted with Jodi at 1655 hrs by Andrina Bryson arguing with her at the Easthouses end of the Roan's Dyke Path and then was spotted alone & acting suspiciously by 8 separate witnesses on the Newbattle Road, between 1740 - 1820. Let's face it, the principles of Occam's razor tell us that it was Luke Mitchell Marion & her parther saw at just before 1800 at Barondale Cottages.

So you're saying Marion and partner saw Luke at Barondale cottages, Mr Apples? Is there documentation of this somewhere? I can't find much info about Marion/Derek, did they give evidence at trial?

[Mr Apples]

So you're saying Marion and partner saw Luke at Barondale cottages, Mr Apples? Is there documentation of this somewhere? I can't find much info about Marion/Derek, did they give evidence at trial?

Defence witness Marion O'Sullivan, 36, told the trial she saw a male who looked "suspicious" standing at a pathway entrance on NewbattleRoad, Dalkeith, just before 1800 on the day Jodi died.

Yes, both Marion and her partner at the time (Derek Hamilton) were called to court as witnesses. Unfortunately, their transcripts haven't been made public yet.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4181637.stm

Both claimed in court they did not know Luke Mitchell at the time, but Marion is now teliing us that she had seen Luke & Jodi walking past her father-in-law's house many times before the murder - and hence why she & her partner said in court it WAS NOT Luke Mitchell they saw that day. I was merely seeking clarification on their sighting: did they always say it wasn't Luke Mitchell they saw? Or did they say it wasn't him when they were on the stand 18 months later at the trial? Luke Mitchell looked completely different at trial compared to when they saw him on that road on 30.06.03; he was still developing and going through puberty, and was fatter about the face at trial and plus his hair was longer and in a ponytail.

[Joe Blogs]

Defence witness Marion O'Sullivan, 36, told the trial she saw a male who looked "suspicious" standing at a pathway entrance on NewbattleRoad, Dalkeith, just before 1800 on the day Jodi died.

Yes, both Marion and her partner at the time (Derek Hamilton) were called to court as witnesses. Unfortunately, their transcripts haven't been made public yet.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4181637.stm

Both claimed in court they did not know Luke Mitchell at the time, but Marion is now teliing us that she had seen Luke & Jodi walking past her father-in-law's house many times before the murder - and hence why she & her partner said in court it WAS NOT Luke Mitchell they saw that day. I was merely seeking clarification on their sighting: did they always say it wasn't Luke Mitchell they saw? Or did they say it wasn't him when they were on the stand 18 months later at the trial? Luke Mitchell looked completely different at trial compared to when they saw him on that road on 30.06.03; he was still developing and going through puberty, and was fatter about the face at trial and plus his hair was longer and in a ponytail.

Isn't pathway entrance referring to RDP rather than the driveway at Barondale cottages, Mr Apples?
Anyway,yes it would be handy if Marion could expand a little. Wonder why her trial transcript is available or not?

[Mr Apples]

Isn't pathway entrance referring to RDP rather than the driveway at Barondale cottages, Mr Apples?
Anyway,yes it would be handy if Marion could expand a little. Wonder why her trial transcript is available or not?

Well, let's apply some common sense. The 3 boys on push bikes, who definitely knew him personally, saw him standing alone, just before 1800, at the Barondale Cottages (they all made it clear during their testimonies that it was the entrance to Barondale Cottages when they saw him). Marion and Derek said it was just before 1800 they saw him at a driveway; it was the same sighting at the same pathway/driveway-- i.e.  Barondale Cottages. The entrance to Roan's Dyke Path on Newbattle Road doesn't have a driveway or pathway. So, we can infer safely it was at Barondale Cottages. It would be nice if we had Marion's & Derek's court transcripts to clarify this, but unfortunately they haven't been made public yet.