"Laughable eyewitness testimony"

[Joe Blogs]

Hi, I'm Marion O'Sullivan, let's just clear this up, I most definitely 1 million percent know the person I saw was not luke Mitchell. How can I be so sure you may ask, because I'd seen luke Mitchell and Jodie Jones walk past my mother in laws house on many occasions, no I had never spoken to either of them, but I sure as hell would of recognised him,

If you're certain it wasn't LM then you must have seen the persons face? can you give a description, Marion?

[Mr Apples]

Hi, I'm Marion O'Sullivan, let's just clear this up, I most definitely 1 million percent know the person I saw was not luke Mitchell. How can I be so sure you may ask, because I'd seen luke Mitchell and Jodie Jones walk past my mother in laws house on many occasions, no I had never spoken to either of them, but I sure as hell would of recognised him,

Hi Marion, and welcome to the forum! I have a couple of questions to ask you in regard to your sighting that day: when the police came to see you & your partner back in 2003, did you tell them at that particular time that it wasn't Luke Mitchell you saw on the Newbattle Road? Or did you tell them you weren't really sure? I am not talking about what you said in court in November/December 2004, I am talking about what you said to police back in 2003 before the trial. Also, did you see anyone else on the road as you and your partner drove by? And why did you say that the boy you saw on the road was acting "suspiciously"? The interesting thing here is that 3 boys on pushbikes who knew Luke Mitchell personally cycled past him at approximately the same time as you saw him, but they said it was definitely him. Those boys were also on the same side of the road as Luke Mitchell was so they had a closer look than you. These boys also said they never saw anyone else on the road that day -- only Luke Mitchell. Another 3 witnesses -- Rosemary Walsh, Lorraine Fleming & Carol Heatlie (all of whom didn't know Luke Mitchell) -- saw him on the Newbattle Road between 1740 - 1805 acting suspiciously and were sure it was him. These 3 women also said there was no one else standing on the Newbattle Road when they drove along it.

[Joe Blogs]

Hi Marion, and welcome to the forum! I have a couple of questions to ask you in regard to your sighting that day: when the police came to see you & your partner back in 2003, did you tell them at that particular time that it wasn't Luke Mitchell you saw on the Newbattle Road? Or did you tell them you weren't really sure? I am not talking about what you said in court in November/December 2004, I am talking about what you said to police back in 2003 before the trial. Also, did you see anyone else on the road as you and your partner drove by? And why did you say that the boy you saw on the road was acting "suspiciously"? The interesting thing here is that 3 boys on pushbikes who knew Luke Mitchell personally cycled past him at approximately the same time as you saw him, but they said it was definitely him. Those boys were also on the same side of the road as Luke Mitchell was so they had a closer look than you. These boys also said they never saw anyone else on the road that day -- only Luke Mitchell. Another 3 witnesses -- Rosemary Walsh, Lorraine Fleming & Carol Heatlie (all of whom didn't know Luke Mitchell) -- saw him on the Newbattle Road between 1740 - 1805 acting suspiciously and were sure it was him. These 3 women also said there was no one else standing on the Newbattle Road when they drove along it.

Well lets just take it that the person Marion saw around 6.00 that day was not Luke, Mr Apples and proceed from there for the moment shall we?
Obviously that means that both LM and the 'other guy in similar attire' were both standing in Newbattle Rd at the same time, Luke at Barondale cottages and the other guy by the wooden gate.
Now this does make sense when you think about it, Luke was seen by Carol Heatlie looking up and down the road to see if Jodi was coming, yet the guy at the gate simply looked suspicious and evasive. Why would Luke openly look for Jodi while standing at Barondale cottages only to avert his gaze from passers by while standing at the gate? This alone suggests two different people.
Now, I see where you're coming from, Mr Apples, you want to know where the guy buy the gate came from, where he went and why didn't the witnesses see both Luke and the 'other guy' as they passed by?
Well, the most obvious place that the 'other guy' came from must surely be RDP, and he must have crossed the road to the wooden gate sometime before Flemying and Walsh passed by.
Now, you say, why didn't Flem/Walsh also see LM standing at the entrance to Barondale cottages? well simply because he was probably standing in the driveway at the time having a smoke, just back from the pavement and out of view. This is why Marion O'Sullivan failed to spot Luke too.
The bike boys on the otherhand couldn't miss Luke passing by slowly, and nor could Carol Heatlie as Luke happened to be standing on the pavement looking up and down the road at the time.
Now you may ask, why didn't the push bike boys or Carol Heatlie see the 'other guy' standing by the wooden gate as they passed by? Well obviously the 'other guy' had skedadled by around 6.00 before the bike boys/Heatlie arrived!
This means the 'other guy' must have left the scene soon after Marion passed by him,  just before the bike boys/Heatlie arrived on the scene.
So where did the 'other guy' go? Well he couldn't have set off in the direction of the Home farm else the bike boys would have passed him, and he didn't walk past Luke. So that just leaves two options, either he re-entered RDP or he went into the Tool hire entrance.
Now, I suppose we have to ask why the 'other guy' emerged onto Newbattle Rd and stood by the gate for about 15 minutes or so before disappearing again? Presuming that he was the killer of course! And that isn't easy to answer! Maybe he heard something or somebody while at the crime scene and scarpered quickly through the V and along the path to Newbattle Road.
The thing is, I don't think the killer would have fled across the open field anyway when he left the crime scene and risk being seen? Even if the killer lived in the direction of the Abbey it would be less risky taking the long way home?
Still doesn't explain standing on Newbattle Rd for any length of time though? Mind you, he was probably quite physically and emotionally knackered after carrying out such an atrocity? Besides, we cant be sure how long he stood by the gate?
Oh well, just a few thoughts in reply to Marions post!
Any other theories, appart from the obvious, that it was Luke standing by the wooden gate?

[Mr Apples]

Well lets just take it that the person Marion saw around 6.00 that day was not Luke, Mr Apples and proceed from there for the moment shall we?
Obviously that means that both LM and the 'other guy in similar attire' were both standing in Newbattle Rd at the same time, Luke at Barondale cottages and the other guy by the wooden gate.
Now this does make sense when you think about it, Luke was seen by Carol Heatlie looking up and down the road to see if Jodi was coming, yet the guy at the gate simply looked suspicious and evasive. Why would Luke openly look for Jodi while standing at Barondale cottages only to avert his gaze from passers by while standing at the gate? This alone suggests two different people.
Now, I see where you're coming from, Mr Apples, you want to know where the guy buy the gate came from, where he went and why didn't the witnesses see both Luke and the 'other guy' as they passed by?
Well, the most obvious place that the 'other guy' came from must surely be RDP, and he must have crossed the road to the wooden gate sometime before Flemying and Walsh passed by.
Now, you say, why didn't Flem/Walsh also see LM standing at the entrance to Barondale cottages? well simply because he was probably standing in the driveway at the time having a smoke, just back from the pavement and out of view. This is why Marion O'Sullivan failed to spot Luke too.
The bike boys on the otherhand couldn't miss Luke passing by slowly, and nor could Carol Heatlie as Luke happened to be standing on the pavement looking up and down the road at the time.
Now you may ask, why didn't the push bike boys or Carol Heatlie see the 'other guy' standing by the wooden gate as they passed by? Well obviously the 'other guy' had skedadled by around 6.00 before the bike boys/Heatlie arrived!
This means the 'other guy' must have left the scene soon after Marion passed by him,  just before the bike boys/Heatlie arrived on the scene.
So where did the 'other guy' go? Well he couldn't have set off in the direction of the Home farm else the bike boys would have passed him, and he didn't walk past Luke. So that just leaves two options, either he re-entered RDP or he went into the Tool hire entrance.
Now, I suppose we have to ask why the 'other guy' emerged onto Newbattle Rd and stood by the gate for about 15 minutes or so before disappearing again? Presuming that he was the killer of course! And that isn't easy to answer! Maybe he heard something or somebody while at the crime scene and scarpered quickly through the V and along the path to Newbattle Road.
The thing is, I don't think the killer would have fled across the open field anyway when he left the crime scene and risk being seen? Even if the killer lived in the direction of the Abbey it would be less risky taking the long way home?
Still doesn't explain standing on Newbattle Rd for any length of time though? Mind you, he was probably quite physically and emotionally knackered after carrying out such an atrocity? Besides, we cant be sure how long he stood by the gate?
Oh well, just a few thoughts in reply to Marions post!
Any other theories, appart from the obvious, that it was Luke standing by the wooden gate?

Hi, JB.

LF & RW said it was categorically Luke Mitchell standing at the gate at 1740ish; they were in no doubt it was him. Also, as per previous posts on this forum with cites, Mark Kane was ruled out via DNA  (i.e., his wasn't found on Jodi or near the locus). LM was spotted with Jodi at 1655 hrs by Andrina Bryson arguing with her at the Easthouses end of the Roan's Dyke Path and then was spotted alone & acting suspiciously by 8 separate witnesses on the Newbattle Road, between 1740 - 1820. Let's face it, the principles of Occam's razor tell us that it was Luke Mitchell Marion & her parther saw at just before 1800 at Barondale Cottages.

[Joe Blogs]

Hi, JB.

LF & RW said it was categorically Luke Mitchell standing at the gate at 1740ish; they were in no doubt it was him. Also, as per previous posts on this forum with cites, Mark Kane was ruled out via DNA  (i.e., his wasn't found on Jodi or near the locus). LM was spotted with Jodi at 1655 hrs by Andrina Bryson arguing with her at the Easthouses end of the Roan's Dyke Path and then was spotted alone & acting suspiciously by 8 separate witnesses on the Newbattle Road, between 1740 - 1820. Let's face it, the principles of Occam's razor tell us that it was Luke Mitchell Marion & her parther saw at just before 1800 at Barondale Cottages.

So you're saying Marion and partner saw Luke at Barondale cottages, Mr Apples? Is there documentation of this somewhere? I can't find much info about Marion/Derek, did they give evidence at trial?

[Mr Apples]

So you're saying Marion and partner saw Luke at Barondale cottages, Mr Apples? Is there documentation of this somewhere? I can't find much info about Marion/Derek, did they give evidence at trial?

Defence witness Marion O'Sullivan, 36, told the trial she saw a male who looked "suspicious" standing at a pathway entrance on NewbattleRoad, Dalkeith, just before 1800 on the day Jodi died.

Yes, both Marion and her partner at the time (Derek Hamilton) were called to court as witnesses. Unfortunately, their transcripts haven't been made public yet.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4181637.stm

Both claimed in court they did not know Luke Mitchell at the time, but Marion is now teliing us that she had seen Luke & Jodi walking past her father-in-law's house many times before the murder - and hence why she & her partner said in court it WAS NOT Luke Mitchell they saw that day. I was merely seeking clarification on their sighting: did they always say it wasn't Luke Mitchell they saw? Or did they say it wasn't him when they were on the stand 18 months later at the trial? Luke Mitchell looked completely different at trial compared to when they saw him on that road on 30.06.03; he was still developing and going through puberty, and was fatter about the face at trial and plus his hair was longer and in a ponytail.

[Joe Blogs]

Defence witness Marion O'Sullivan, 36, told the trial she saw a male who looked "suspicious" standing at a pathway entrance on NewbattleRoad, Dalkeith, just before 1800 on the day Jodi died.

Yes, both Marion and her partner at the time (Derek Hamilton) were called to court as witnesses. Unfortunately, their transcripts haven't been made public yet.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4181637.stm

Both claimed in court they did not know Luke Mitchell at the time, but Marion is now teliing us that she had seen Luke & Jodi walking past her father-in-law's house many times before the murder - and hence why she & her partner said in court it WAS NOT Luke Mitchell they saw that day. I was merely seeking clarification on their sighting: did they always say it wasn't Luke Mitchell they saw? Or did they say it wasn't him when they were on the stand 18 months later at the trial? Luke Mitchell looked completely different at trial compared to when they saw him on that road on 30.06.03; he was still developing and going through puberty, and was fatter about the face at trial and plus his hair was longer and in a ponytail.

Isn't pathway entrance referring to RDP rather than the driveway at Barondale cottages, Mr Apples?
Anyway,yes it would be handy if Marion could expand a little. Wonder why her trial transcript is available or not?

[Mr Apples]

Isn't pathway entrance referring to RDP rather than the driveway at Barondale cottages, Mr Apples?
Anyway,yes it would be handy if Marion could expand a little. Wonder why her trial transcript is available or not?

Well, let's apply some common sense. The 3 boys on push bikes, who definitely knew him personally, saw him standing alone, just before 1800, at the Barondale Cottages (they all made it clear during their testimonies that it was the entrance to Barondale Cottages when they saw him). Marion and Derek said it was just before 1800 they saw him at a driveway; it was the same sighting at the same pathway/driveway-- i.e.  Barondale Cottages. The entrance to Roan's Dyke Path on Newbattle Road doesn't have a driveway or pathway. So, we can infer safely it was at Barondale Cottages. It would be nice if we had Marion's & Derek's court transcripts to clarify this, but unfortunately they haven't been made public yet.

[Joe Blogs]

Well, let's apply some common sense. The 3 boys on push bikes, who definitely knew him personally, saw him standing alone, just before 1800, at the Barondale Cottages (they all made it clear during their testimonies that it was the entrance to Barondale Cottages when they saw him). Marion and Derek said it was just before 1800 they saw him at a driveway; it was the same sighting at the same pathway/driveway-- i.e.  Barondale Cottages. The entrance to Roan's Dyke Path on Newbattle Road doesn't have a driveway or pathway. So, we can infer safely it was at Barondale Cottages. It would be nice if we had Marion's & Derek's court transcripts to clarify this, but unfortunately they haven't been made public yet.

OK, thanks ,Mr Apples, I will continue to look for info on what, where and when Marion/Derek saw that day!

[Joe Blogs]

Well, let's apply some common sense. The 3 boys on push bikes, who definitely knew him personally, saw him standing alone, just before 1800, at the Barondale Cottages (they all made it clear during their testimonies that it was the entrance to Barondale Cottages when they saw him). Marion and Derek said it was just before 1800 they saw him at a driveway; it was the same sighting at the same pathway/driveway-- i.e.  Barondale Cottages. The entrance to Roan's Dyke Path on Newbattle Road doesn't have a driveway or pathway. So, we can infer safely it was at Barondale Cottages. It would be nice if we had Marion's & Derek's court transcripts to clarify this, but unfortunately they haven't been made public yet.

There is already quite a discussion on the forum here about Marion/Derek started by you a few years ago, Mr Apples!
Having read some of it, including some newspaper inserts, I am still not sure whether Luke was standing by the wooden gate or at Barondale cottages when they saw him?
Pity that Marion won't clarify this important point!

[Joe Blogs]

Going back to why the killer would exit RDP and cross the road to the wooden gate?
Well, obviously the killer wouldn't want to take the murder weapon home in case their premises was searched, and they wouldn't want to leave the weapon too near to the crime scene as it would be found by the police, hence it makes sense the killer would dispose of the weapon somewhere it was unlikely to be found,eg, deep in the woods and gulleys at the opposite side of the road from RDP.
Yes, that is probably why the killer crossed the road, to climb over the fence and hide the murder weapon before going home?
Wonder if its still there to this day, hiding in a gully or the bottom of a burn amongst the sand and stones?

[Joe Blogs]

Yes, the killer exited RDP just before flemying/walsh arrived on the scene about 5.45, he waited at the gate until they drove past, climbed over the gate and delved deep into the woods to dispose of the weapon, maybe he pulled back a sod and buried it, unlikely ever to be found without the aid of a metal detector.
The killer then climbed back over the gate just before 6.00 as Marion/Derek/child passed, rushing home to catch the Simpsons at 6.00.
The killer then immediately crosses the road again and re-enters RDP to make his way home, just before the bike boys arrive, he probably goes through the woods at the side of the road and up past the Tool hire estate.
Yes, it all kind of makes sense now!

[Mr Apples]

Going back to why the killer would exit RDP and cross the road to the wooden gate?
Well, obviously the killer wouldn't want to take the murder weapon home in case their premises was searched, and they wouldn't want to leave the weapon too near to the crime scene as it would be found by the police, hence it makes sense the killer would dispose of the weapon somewhere it was unlikely to be found,eg, deep in the woods and gulleys at the opposite side of the road from RDP.
Yes, that is probably why the killer crossed the road, to climb over the fence and hide the murder weapon before going home?
Wonder if its still there to this day, hiding in a gully or the bottom of a burn amongst the sand and stones?

Endless places to hide a murder weapon in that semi-rural area (a place LM knew like the back of his hand). He phoned the Jones Landline after he'd murdered Jodi at 1740 and spoke to Allen Ovens, pretending he hadn't met up with her yet (this was the beginning of setting up his false alibi). He then continued down that woodland strip which leads to that wooden gate on NB Rd across the road from where he emerged. He had no choice but to get away from the murder scene and out of that clothing (no doubt that khaki green parka had traces of Jodi's blood on it). He needed to get home without looking or acting flustered (for example, if the motorists had seen him running or climbing over fences, now that would look bad for him). As it turned out, he was seen by LF & RW at that gate, in their words "looking up to no good" and "looking cheesed off"; this was his guilty conscience coming through, imo. When the police delved into LM's past and his personality, and so on, all manner of problematic and alarming things came to the fore (not least that he'd been referred to a psychologist in both primary school and high school; there had been sexual and physical assaults on other females previously; in other words, this was a deeply troubled boy - which copious amounts of cannabis smoking only exacerbated. LM was convicted by 20 adminicles of circumstantial evidence (all detailed on this forum). Guilty as sin, imo.

I don't think he would re-enter RDP after murdering Jodi. That would not make sense and very too risky. Interestingly, he was on that busybroad at peak time, but no one saw him between 1745 - 1800, but 6 people saw him at 6 pm at Barondale cottages and then one of the guys on the pushbike saw him standing there at the same spot at 1820. Then no one saw him again between 1820 - 1915. He met up with 3 boys in the Abbey at 1915. And then not seen from after 2030 -2200, after leaving the boys in the Abbey. Where was he during these windows of time??

[Joe Blogs]

Endless places to hide a murder weapon in that semi-rural area (a place LM knew like the back of his hand). He phoned the Jones Landline after he'd murdered Jodi at 1740 and spoke to Allen Ovens, pretending he hadn't met up with her yet (this was the beginning of setting up his false alibi). He then continued down that woodland strip which leads to that wooden gate on NB Rd across the road from where he emerged. He had no choice but to get away from the murder scene and out of that clothing (no doubt that khaki green parka had traces of Jodi's blood on it). He needed to get home without looking or acting flustered (for example, if the motorists had seen him running or climbing over fences, now that would look bad for him). As it turned out, he was seen by LF & RW at that gate, in their words "looking up to no good" and "looking cheesed off"; this was his guilty conscience coming through, imo. When the police delved into LM's past and his personality, and so on, all manner of problematic and alarming things came to the fore (not least that he'd been referred to a psychologist in both primary school and high school; there had been sexual and physical assaults on other females previously; in other words, this was a deeply troubled boy - which copious amounts of cannabis smoking only exacerbated. LM was convicted by 20 adminicles of circumstantial evidence (all detailed on this forum). Guilty as sin, imo.

I don't think he would re-enter RDP after murdering Jodi. That would not make sense and very too risky. Interestingly, he was on that busybroad at peak time, but no one saw him between 1745 - 1800, but 6 people saw him at 6 pm at Barondale cottages and then one of the guys on the pushbike saw him standing there at the same spot at 1820. Then no one saw him again between 1820 - 1915. He met up with 3 boys in the Abbey at 1915. And then not seen from after 2030 -2200, after leaving the boys in the Abbey. Where was he during these windows of time??

Why do you think that LM waited until after 6.20 to go home, Mr Apples?

[Mr Apples]

Why do you think that LM waited until after 6.20 to go home, Mr Apples?

He needed to be seen. After all, he was the one and only person who was meeting with Jodi that night. No one else. Initially, LM said he left his house at 1730 to go and meet with Jodi, who was supposedly coming to Newbattle to meet him (despite Jodi telling her mother, before she left her house at 1650, that they would be "mucking about up here", implying strongly they would be meeting at Easthouses). He deliberately placed himself on the Newbattle Road between 1800-1820 as part of his false alibi (in my opinion). He knew he would be seen on that busy road as it was peak time and the Newbattle Road connects Dalkeith to all surrounding areas (commuters to and from work). He was feigning concern for Jodi, who had died by his hand 45 minutes earlier behind that wall on the RDP behind the V-break (which was nearer the Easthouses end than the Newbattle end).