Author Topic: Russia - Ukraine war  (Read 43172 times)

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Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #225 on: April 27, 2022, 05:19:10 PM »
USA & EU: "Quick, send more weapons, that'll help broker peace"


Further arming Ukraine will only destroy it. The west must act to end this war now

By providing arms but avoiding military intervention western leaders are prolonging this hideous conflict. Talks are the best way out

ew people in the west doubt that Ukraine is fighting a just war. Russia’s invasion was entirely unprovoked. Whatever complaints it may have had about Nato expansion or Ukraine’s mistreatment of Russians in Donbas, nobody had attacked Russia, and nobody was planning to. Vladimir Putin launched a straightforward war of aggression and territorial conquest.

It follows that supporting Ukraine is the right thing to do. But it is not at all clear that the kind of support we are giving (and not giving) is the right way to go about preserving the Ukrainian nation.

The longer this war rages on, the more Ukrainians will flee their homeland, and the more devastation will be wrought upon their homes, cities, industry and economy. Yet the west’s current approach of supporting Ukraine’s war aim of defeating the aggressor, and providing arms for that purpose while pointedly avoiding direct military intervention, is guaranteed to prolong the war. Russia’s progress may be slowed, but it’s highly unlikely to be stopped, far less pushed out of Ukraine, and in the meantime the grinding destruction and hideous war crimes will continue.

No day goes past without some senior western politician proclaiming that Ukraine will be “successful” and that Russia is “failing”. This is certainly morale-boosting. But it is clearly nonsense.

The fact is, day by day, more towns and cities are destroyed and then fall to the Russians. In two months, the area under Russian control – originally just the breakaway parts of Donbas – has grown to perhaps five times the size. If Russia continues to suffer “defeats” at this pace, then in another two months the entire south of Ukraine will be in ruins, cities such as Odesa will resemble Mariupol, and thousands upon thousands more Ukrainians will have died.

Worse, as the war goes on, and more towns are destroyed, it becomes less likely that Ukrainians who have fled to other countries will ever return, because they will have no homes or workplaces to come back to. How many citizens of Mariupol will ever return? If Russia’s aim was to exterminate the Ukrainian nation, then the west’s approach is helping to do just that.

Surely, if the lives of Ukrainian people are our concern then the west has to do something to stop the war – now. Encouraging the Ukrainians to continue, however just their cause, is merely making their country uninhabitable.

The trouble is, there are only two ways to stop the war quickly, and neither is palatable to most western leaders.

One would be for Nato to enter the war and make a quick, massive and decisive strike to cripple Russia’s invasion forces. Unlike with Russia’s actions, it would have every right under international law to do so. When Putin intervened in Syria, he very carefully framed this as a response to a request from Syria’s legitimate and internationally recognised government. The west could do the same in Ukraine. Putin himself has no such justification for his invasion.


The risk involved in this – of a third world war – is obvious, and it’s why the west refuses to intervene directly.

The other option is to persuade Putin to implement an immediate ceasefire, by inviting Russia to comprehensive peace talks. Western leaders are disinclined to parley with a butcher such as Putin. But they did it with Serbia’s Slobodan Milošević, only months after the massacre at Srebrenica, and the result was the Dayton agreement that put an end to the war in Bosnia in 1995.

To get Putin to the negotiating table at all, everything would have to be up for discussion – including Ukraine’s borders, Russia’s age-old security concerns, perhaps even the very logic of basing today’s international frontiers in that part of Europe on what were internal borders in the USSR, drawn up by communist leaders precisely to prevent Soviet republics and regions from being viable independent states. The outcome of the talks does not need to be predetermined. The important thing is to talk rather than fight.

Western leaders cannot bring themselves to broach these matters, which would seem to reward Putin for attempting to redraw the map by force. They would rather fight – or more accurately, let Ukraine fight, in the hope of defeating Russia. But if one thing is certain it is that Putin will never accept defeat. He is already too deeply invested in this war to back off with nothing to show for it. If western leaders think that their arms-length encouragement of Ukraine will bring about a Ukrainian military victory, then they are fatally misreading Putin’s intentions and resolve. For Ukraine’s sake, we need to stop him now, one way or the other, before nothing is left of the country we want to protect.

Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has abruptly transformed the world. Millions of people have already fled. A new Iron Curtain is grinding into place. An economic war deepens, as the military conflict escalates, civilian casualties rise and evidence of horrific war crimes mounts.

It’s our job at the Guardian to decipher a rapidly changing landscape, particularly when it involves a mounting refugee crisis and the risk of unthinkable escalation. Our correspondents are on the ground in Ukraine and throughout the globe delivering round-the-clock reporting and analysis during this perilous situation.

We know there is no substitute for being there – and we’ll stay on the ground, as we did during the 1917 Russian Revolution, the Ukrainian famine of the 1930s, the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 and the first Russo-Ukrainian conflict in 2014. We have an illustrious, 200-year history of reporting throughout Europe in times of upheaval, peace and everything in between. We won’t let up now.

Tens of millions have placed their trust in the Guardian’s fearless journalism since we started publishing 200 years ago, turning to us in moments of crisis, uncertainty, solidarity and hope. We’d like to invite you to join more than 1.5 million supporters from 180 countries who now power us financially – keeping us open to all, and fiercely independent.

Unlike many others, the Guardian has no shareholders and no billionaire owner. Just the determination and passion to deliver high-impact global reporting, always free from commercial or political influence. Reporting like this is vital to establish the facts: who is lying and who is telling the truth.

And we provide all this for free, for everyone to read. We do this because we believe in information equality. Greater numbers of people can keep track of the global events shaping our world, understand their impact on people and communities, and become inspired to take meaningful action. Millions can benefit from open access to quality, truthful news, regardless of their ability to pay for it.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/27/ukraine-war-end-putin-russia-talks

« Last Edit: April 28, 2022, 12:48:36 PM by Wonderfulspam »
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Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #226 on: April 27, 2022, 05:52:52 PM »

Vladimir Putin has warned that if any other country intervenes in Moscow's military operation in Ukraine, Russia will launch a quick-fire military response.

Speaking to politicians in St Petersburg, the Russian president said that "if anyone sets out to intervene in the current events from the outside and creates unacceptable threats for us that are strategic in nature, they should know that our response... will be lightning-fast".

Putin said that the military would not hesitate to use the most modern weaponry, in an escalating war of words days after Russia warned of a “real” threat of World War Three breaking out with the West sending arms and cash to Kyiv.

"We have all the tools for this, that no one else can boast of having. We won't boast about it: we'll use them, if needed. And I want everyone to know that," Putin said.

"We have already taken all the decisions on this."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/04/27/ukraine-war-news-russia-latest-weapons-attacks-kyiv-putin/
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Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #227 on: April 27, 2022, 07:00:05 PM »

No attempts to de-escalate by our leaders, instead doubling down, hell bent on WW3 in support of a non NATO country.


West should provide warplanes, says Liz Truss

Britain and other Western powers should provide warplanes to Ukraine, Foreign Secretary Liz Truss will say, as part of long-term military support.

In a major speech in London, Ms Truss will argue that the West "must be prepared for the long haul and double down on our support" for the country.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61239075

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Offline barrier

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #228 on: April 27, 2022, 08:53:19 PM »
All this could have been avoided if they'd have nuked him at the start, now he's saying going on I dare you.
This is my own private domicile and I shall not be harassed, biatch:Jesse Pinkman Character.

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #229 on: April 27, 2022, 10:37:20 PM »
All this could have been avoided if they'd have nuked him at the start, now he's saying going on I dare you.

Sounds rather extreme.

A better option would have been to give the security guarantees that Russia requested when it massed troops on Ukraines border & asked to negotiate.

That request was rebuffed entirely by the USA, now we'll just have to make do with continually funnelling weapons into Ukraine & starving ourselves to death whilst paying ridiculous fuel prices as a result of our own sanctions.

Still, it will all be worth it to keep that relatively small patch of land free from Russian control.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2022, 10:41:11 PM by Wonderfulspam »
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Offline Myster

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #230 on: April 28, 2022, 07:53:21 AM »
I've lived through a few US Presidents, but this one takes the unfortunate cookie and scares the hell out of me...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0AoyNdZ-RY
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #231 on: April 28, 2022, 08:15:58 AM »
I've lived through a few US Presidents, but this one takes the unfortunate cookie and scares the hell out of me...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0AoyNdZ-RY

It was obvious he was in cognitive decline prior to the 2020 election, but he somehow became the most voted for president in U.S history, & the other guy sent mean tweets so they couldn't vote for him again.

I'd like for someone to tell me how the world was worse under Trump.

And cackling Kamala Harris is next in line. We are doomed.
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Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #232 on: April 28, 2022, 08:28:13 AM »
The EU woman Ursula van whatsername had the audacity to say Russia is blackmailing countries over gas.
What are sanctions if not coercion?
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Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #233 on: April 28, 2022, 12:31:12 PM »


Yet more escalation & inflammatory rhetoric from our leaders.

This is totally ridiculous, why are they pushing for WW3 & not attempting to negotiate or compromise?

There isn't a cat in hells chance that Russia will roll over & give up Crimea, they've got a massive naval base there with warships & nuclear arms.

This is unnecessary & frankly terrifying.

What the hell are they doing?


Ben Wallace backs Liz Truss and says Russia should be pushed out of 'the whole of Ukraine' - including Crimea

Both Ms Truss and Mr Wallace's remarks imply that the UK government believes Russian forces must leave not just the territory occupied since the current invasion at the end of February, but also areas they occupied and annexed previously.

Ben Wallace has reinforced Liz Truss' view that Russian forces must be pushed out of "the whole of Ukraine" - and suggested this should include Crimea.

Speaking at an event at Mansion House on Wednesday evening, Foreign Secretary Liz Truss said Western allies, including the UK, must "double down" and "keep going further and faster" to "push Russia out of the whole of Ukraine".

Asked on Sky News if Ms Truss was referring to Crimea, which was invaded and annexed by Russia back in 2014, Defence Secretary Ben Wallace replied: "Well, the international community believes Russia should leave Ukraine.

"The international community has condemned Russia for its invasion of Crimea, which was illegal in 2014. Its invasion of Donetsk, recognising it is illegal, is somewhat different.

"We don't recognise it and we've constantly said that Russia should leave sovereign territory. So that hasn't changed."

'We are supporting Ukraine's sovereign integrity'

Pressed on how far the West will support Ukraine in expelling Russian forces, Mr Wallace added that there is a "long way to go" before there is the prospect of Ukraine taking back control of Crimea.

"There's a long way to go before Ukraine pushes into Crimea," he told Sky News.

"I think what I would certainly say is, we are supporting Ukraine's sovereign integrity. We've done that all along. That, of course, includes Crimea.

"But you know, first and foremost, let's get Russia out of where they are now in its invasion plans and help Ukraine resolve and actually remember the Minsk agreement, which Russia has basically ripped up, was all about trying to resolve those two occupied territories.

"But the key thing is to continue to support Ukraine's sovereign integrity and their ability to defend themselves".

Both Ms Truss and Mr Wallace's remarks imply that the UK government believes Russian forces must leave not just the territory occupied since the current invasion at the end of February, but also areas they occupied and annexed previously including Crimea and parts of the eastern Donbas region.

Truss: China must 'play by the rules'

In her speech on Wednesday evening, the foreign secretary also singled out China for its silence on the war in Ukraine, warning the country to "play by the rules".

China voted to keep Russia as a member of the United Nations Human Rights Council earlier this month and previously abstained from a Security Council vote condemning the invasion at the outset of the conflict.

"China is not impervious. They will not continue to rise if they do not play by the rules," Ms Truss said.

"China needs trade with the G7. We represent around half of the global economy. And we have choices.

"We have shown with Russia the kind of choices that we're prepared to make when international rules are violated."

Addressing the UK's allies in the keynote foreign policy speech, the foreign secretary also declared that the war in Ukraine "is everyone's war because Ukraine's victory is a strategic imperative for all of us".

Her speech came after a 63rd day of fighting, which saw Kherson particularly badly hit.

At one point, Russian television channels were knocked off-air following a series of explosions in the southern city which has been occupied by Russian troops since early in the war.

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-ben-wallace-backs-liz-truss-and-says-russia-should-be-pushed-out-of-the-whole-of-ukraine-including-crimea-12600491


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Offline barrier

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #234 on: April 28, 2022, 01:08:25 PM »
Hope they wait a day or two, I'm off on holiday next weekend , I don't mind if its the last hoorah.


Russia's state TV tells viewers 'we're all going to die someday': Nuclear war is 'most probable outcome', viewers are told, 'but we will go to heaven while they simply croak'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10762143/Ukraine-war-Russian-state-TV-says-nuclear-strike-probable-losing.html
This is my own private domicile and I shall not be harassed, biatch:Jesse Pinkman Character.

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #235 on: April 28, 2022, 01:16:28 PM »
Hope they wait a day or two, I'm off on holiday next weekend , I don't mind if its the last hoorah.


Russia's state TV tells viewers 'we're all going to die someday': Nuclear war is 'most probable outcome', viewers are told, 'but we will go to heaven while they simply croak'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10762143/Ukraine-war-Russian-state-TV-says-nuclear-strike-probable-losing.html

And western leaders are utterly delusional.

I saw one US spokesman say they have the full support of the international community.

They don't, they only really have the support of western allies.

China, India, Pakistan, Syria, parts of Africa etc etc are refusing to condemn Russia's military operation & don't support the sanctions.

I hope you're not going too far abroad for your holidays because you might not be able to get back!
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Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #236 on: April 28, 2022, 01:26:28 PM »

If you haven't seen it I highly recommend watching Oliver Stone's 'Ukraine on Fire' instead of chatting about Maddie.

It has some disturbing scenes, but that's the reality of war.

The US directly interfered with & provoked Ukraine into civil unrest prior to the 2014 annexation of Crimea.

The current war is a result of U.S attempts to pull Ukraine into the US sphere of influence.

Ukraine was & is a badly divided country with the West being pro Europe & the East being pro Russia.

The solution would be to split the country down the middle, but that's not what the USA wants.

Their intent is to put a NATO ally right on Russia's border.

How could Russia not perceive that as a threat?

If the situation were reversed the US wouldn't stand for it.

I cringe when I see people flying the Ukraine flag, people don't have a clue that what they're showing support for is actually WW3.

The only voice of reason in Europe is Hungary's Victor Orban, he say's there can't be a military solution & must be diplomacy, but that's not what the U.S & EU want.
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Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #237 on: April 28, 2022, 01:28:17 PM »

Ukraine On Fire.

Watch if you want to understand the current conflict, or just fly Ukrainian flags like sheep led by wolves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKcmNGvaDUs
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Offline barrier

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #238 on: April 28, 2022, 03:08:51 PM »
Getting prepared ?

Missiles loaded onto nuclear sub HMS Audacious after Moscow's threat to Britain

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1602546/ukraine-news-missiles-loaded-hms-audacious-moscow-threat
This is my own private domicile and I shall not be harassed, biatch:Jesse Pinkman Character.

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #239 on: April 28, 2022, 03:13:56 PM »
Getting prepared ?

Missiles loaded onto nuclear sub HMS Audacious after Moscow's threat to Britain

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1602546/ukraine-news-missiles-loaded-hms-audacious-moscow-threat

Ramping right up.
All in defense of bankrupt corrupt non EU non NATO country.

I didn't vote for any of this.
I'd have chosen diplomacy but Anerican Neo Cons have other ideas.
They want regime change in Russia & they're prepared to risk nuclear war to achieve it.
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