Author Topic: Amaral's grasp of forensics ...  (Read 23634 times)

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ferryman

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Re: Amaral's grasp of forensics ...
« Reply #30 on: April 15, 2013, 06:09:59 PM »
Correspondence between Amaral and the Portuguese forensic laboratory again ...

There is an anomaly with the dates, but that's not the point of principal interest.

Subject: Sending of Pyjamas

The present inquiry investigates the disappearance of Madeleine McCann on 3rd May 2007. I am herewith delivering to the Police Scientific Laboratory a pair of girl's pyjamas.

The Pyjamas are from Marks and Spencers, size 2 to 3 years -97 cm.

The pyjamas are composed of two pieces: camisole type without buttons and half sleeves, pink with designs, letters and tracing in white with (small) floral patterns, the right pyjama bottom leg has a design (smaller size) which is identical to that of the camisole.

The pyjamas being sent are 'equal' in make, model, size, colours and designs as well as presumably the texture, to those the little girl was wearing at the time of her disappearance. The article sent serves for eventual comparisons with fibres collected by the competent officers of the Police Scientific Lab, within the scope of the current investigation.

With compliments

Signed

The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation

Goncalo Amaral


And the bewiildered response:


1723 to 1725  Letter 15 March 2007 from LPC to PJ Portimao asking what should be done with the pyjamas there having been no fibres collected during the Inquiry
07 Processos Vol VII Page 1723 to 1725
07_VOLUME_VI1a_Page_1723
 Letter
To: The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation

Date: 2007/03/15 (sic)

Ref: NUIPC 201/07 GALGS

Your communication: 2007/06/05

Ref no. 15971 Reg Correspondence 6429/07

Subject: Information

With reference to the abovementioned letter and in compliance with the despatch, we request you to provide us with information with regard to what should be done with the material sent, given that in this Scientific Police Laboratory there are no fibres that have been collected within the scope of the investigation mentioned above.
With compliments.



This is the man who, apparently, contradicted Prior on interpretation of the forensic results, then sent him away with  a flea in his ear to berate the FSS on the subject of the PJ's powers of arrest ...

As a matter of fact it was Stuart Prior that irritated with the incongruences from the Lab, told them by phone that "with less than that I've sent people to prison".

What that shows is that the Laboratory was in fact a mess. They had received an amount of samples and that was just another to be taken with the others in order to be analized.  They are supposed to be scientists not clowns to go with the pijamas to a children's party.

Do you know the source of the claim?

Offline gilet

Re: Amaral's grasp of forensics ...
« Reply #31 on: April 15, 2013, 06:30:04 PM »
Correspondence between Amaral and the Portuguese forensic laboratory again ...

There is an anomaly with the dates, but that's not the point of principal interest.

Subject: Sending of Pyjamas

The present inquiry investigates the disappearance of Madeleine McCann on 3rd May 2007. I am herewith delivering to the Police Scientific Laboratory a pair of girl's pyjamas.

The Pyjamas are from Marks and Spencers, size 2 to 3 years -97 cm.

The pyjamas are composed of two pieces: camisole type without buttons and half sleeves, pink with designs, letters and tracing in white with (small) floral patterns, the right pyjama bottom leg has a design (smaller size) which is identical to that of the camisole.

The pyjamas being sent are 'equal' in make, model, size, colours and designs as well as presumably the texture, to those the little girl was wearing at the time of her disappearance. The article sent serves for eventual comparisons with fibres collected by the competent officers of the Police Scientific Lab, within the scope of the current investigation.

With compliments

Signed

The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation

Goncalo Amaral


And the bewiildered response:


1723 to 1725  Letter 15 March 2007 from LPC to PJ Portimao asking what should be done with the pyjamas there having been no fibres collected during the Inquiry
07 Processos Vol VII Page 1723 to 1725
07_VOLUME_VI1a_Page_1723
 Letter
To: The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation

Date: 2007/03/15 (sic)

Ref: NUIPC 201/07 GALGS

Your communication: 2007/06/05

Ref no. 15971 Reg Correspondence 6429/07

Subject: Information

With reference to the abovementioned letter and in compliance with the despatch, we request you to provide us with information with regard to what should be done with the material sent, given that in this Scientific Police Laboratory there are no fibres that have been collected within the scope of the investigation mentioned above.
With compliments.



This is the man who, apparently, contradicted Prior on interpretation of the forensic results, then sent him away with  a flea in his ear to berate the FSS on the subject of the PJ's powers of arrest ...

As a matter of fact it was Stuart Prior that irritated with the incongruences from the Lab, told them by phone that "with less than that I've sent people to prison".

What that shows is that the Laboratory was in fact a mess. They had received an amount of samples and that was just another to be taken with the others in order to be analized.  They are supposed to be scientists not clowns to go with the pijamas to a children's party.

So glad it was you who castigated the people at the Portuguese LPC as "clowns to go with the pijamas to a children's party" because if it was me I might have been accused of prejudice.

However it wasn't the scientists at the LPC in this case who were acting stupidly was it? It was Amaral who signed off the letter accompanying the pyjamas which no matter how much of a likeness he believed they might be to what Madeleine might have been wearing were actually useless because he hadn't understood the need for reference fibres.

And people are surprised that his handling of the case is referred to in less than complementary terms. After examples of Amaral's behaviour like this one, what can they truly expect?

Offline Luz

Re: Amaral's grasp of forensics ...
« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2013, 06:34:54 PM »
Correspondence between Amaral and the Portuguese forensic laboratory again ...

There is an anomaly with the dates, but that's not the point of principal interest.

Subject: Sending of Pyjamas

The present inquiry investigates the disappearance of Madeleine McCann on 3rd May 2007. I am herewith delivering to the Police Scientific Laboratory a pair of girl's pyjamas.

The Pyjamas are from Marks and Spencers, size 2 to 3 years -97 cm.

The pyjamas are composed of two pieces: camisole type without buttons and half sleeves, pink with designs, letters and tracing in white with (small) floral patterns, the right pyjama bottom leg has a design (smaller size) which is identical to that of the camisole.

The pyjamas being sent are 'equal' in make, model, size, colours and designs as well as presumably the texture, to those the little girl was wearing at the time of her disappearance. The article sent serves for eventual comparisons with fibres collected by the competent officers of the Police Scientific Lab, within the scope of the current investigation.

With compliments

Signed

The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation

Goncalo Amaral


And the bewiildered response:


1723 to 1725  Letter 15 March 2007 from LPC to PJ Portimao asking what should be done with the pyjamas there having been no fibres collected during the Inquiry
07 Processos Vol VII Page 1723 to 1725
07_VOLUME_VI1a_Page_1723
 Letter
To: The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation

Date: 2007/03/15 (sic)

Ref: NUIPC 201/07 GALGS

Your communication: 2007/06/05

Ref no. 15971 Reg Correspondence 6429/07

Subject: Information

With reference to the abovementioned letter and in compliance with the despatch, we request you to provide us with information with regard to what should be done with the material sent, given that in this Scientific Police Laboratory there are no fibres that have been collected within the scope of the investigation mentioned above.
With compliments.



This is the man who, apparently, contradicted Prior on interpretation of the forensic results, then sent him away with  a flea in his ear to berate the FSS on the subject of the PJ's powers of arrest ...

As a matter of fact it was Stuart Prior that irritated with the incongruences from the Lab, told them by phone that "with less than that I've sent people to prison".

What that shows is that the Laboratory was in fact a mess. They had received an amount of samples and that was just another to be taken with the others in order to be analized.  They are supposed to be scientists not clowns to go with the pijamas to a children's party.

Yes, I do. It is in the book of Mr. Amaral, but very long before that I had that information from another person that was present at the room where that occurred.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral's grasp of forensics ...
« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2013, 07:03:10 PM »
For me, it stretches credulity past breaking point to suppose that Amaral contradicted Prior on the forensic results, then ordered him to ring the FSS as, apparently, described in Amaral's book

Amaral is not fluent in English, is he?  How did he follow the gist of the conversation?

Offline gilet

Re: Amaral's grasp of forensics ...
« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2013, 07:07:57 PM »
Correspondence between Amaral and the Portuguese forensic laboratory again ...

There is an anomaly with the dates, but that's not the point of principal interest.

Subject: Sending of Pyjamas

The present inquiry investigates the disappearance of Madeleine McCann on 3rd May 2007. I am herewith delivering to the Police Scientific Laboratory a pair of girl's pyjamas.

The Pyjamas are from Marks and Spencers, size 2 to 3 years -97 cm.

The pyjamas are composed of two pieces: camisole type without buttons and half sleeves, pink with designs, letters and tracing in white with (small) floral patterns, the right pyjama bottom leg has a design (smaller size) which is identical to that of the camisole.

The pyjamas being sent are 'equal' in make, model, size, colours and designs as well as presumably the texture, to those the little girl was wearing at the time of her disappearance. The article sent serves for eventual comparisons with fibres collected by the competent officers of the Police Scientific Lab, within the scope of the current investigation.

With compliments

Signed

The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation

Goncalo Amaral


And the bewiildered response:


1723 to 1725  Letter 15 March 2007 from LPC to PJ Portimao asking what should be done with the pyjamas there having been no fibres collected during the Inquiry
07 Processos Vol VII Page 1723 to 1725
07_VOLUME_VI1a_Page_1723
 Letter
To: The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation

Date: 2007/03/15 (sic)

Ref: NUIPC 201/07 GALGS

Your communication: 2007/06/05

Ref no. 15971 Reg Correspondence 6429/07

Subject: Information

With reference to the abovementioned letter and in compliance with the despatch, we request you to provide us with information with regard to what should be done with the material sent, given that in this Scientific Police Laboratory there are no fibres that have been collected within the scope of the investigation mentioned above.
With compliments.



This is the man who, apparently, contradicted Prior on interpretation of the forensic results, then sent him away with  a flea in his ear to berate the FSS on the subject of the PJ's powers of arrest ...

As a matter of fact it was Stuart Prior that irritated with the incongruences from the Lab, told them by phone that "with less than that I've sent people to prison".

What that shows is that the Laboratory was in fact a mess. They had received an amount of samples and that was just another to be taken with the others in order to be analized.  They are supposed to be scientists not clowns to go with the pijamas to a children's party.

Yes, I do. It is in the book of Mr. Amaral, but very long before that I had that information from another person that was present at the room where that occurred.

Please provide the reference in the book or a quote. Or are you just here to make claims and provide absolutely no evidence for your claims?  Forum rules here suggest you should provide evidence.

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: Amaral's grasp of forensics ...
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2013, 07:11:07 PM »
Luz wrote:

"As a matter of fact it was Stuart Prior that irritated with the incongruences from the Lab, told them by phone that "with less than that I've sent people to prison".

What that shows is that the Laboratory was in fact a mess. They had received an amount of samples and that was just another to be taken with the others in order to be analized.  They are supposed to be scientists not clowns to go with the pijamas to a children's party."

Luz - what is the actual source of that claim please? 


ferryman

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Re: Amaral's grasp of forensics ...
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2013, 07:14:03 PM »
Here is the quote:

At a meeting in our office, with the Portuguese and the English investigation team, Stuart expresses his disappointment over the test results. This is where the saga of the FSS reports begins. We read the part of the report dealing with the traces of blood lifted from the floor of apartment 5A, from behind the sofa and in the boot of the McCanns' car
and we don’t agree with Stuart’s disappointment We talk about blood traces because the CSI dog is trained to find only that bodily fluid. The reports that support that decision are clear: the CSI dog was used to detect human blood. Low Copy Number, the technique used to determine the DNA of the samples, does not identify the nature of the bodily fluid they are derived from. But we know it's definitely traces of blood and not other bodily fluids since the CSI dog is trained to detect only human blood.

In the first case, the laboratory considers that the result of the analysis is inconclusive because the samples gathered provide very little information when the DNA comes from more than one person. But all the confirmed DNA components match with the corresponding components in Madeleine’s DNA profile!.

As for the second case, after an explanation about the DNA components in Madeleine's genetic profile, it concludes that 15 out of 19 markers in Madeleine's profile are present in the sample examined. Only 4 short of 100% reliability. The FSS specialists qualify the results as, "complex," and state that these 15 markers are not enough to conclude with certainty that it's definitely Madeleine's DNA profile, especially as Low Copy Number picked out a total of 37 in the sample. That means that at least three individuals contributed to this result.

But there was more in this first preliminary report. In the same report, the scientist went further and explained that in the profiles of many of the lab experts, elements from the DNA profile of Madeleine are present. This means that a major part of the DNA profile of any given person can be built by three donors. That is understandable. Two questions arose immediately. The first one: what good is a DNA profile in terms of criminal evidence, if it can be the combination of three or more donors? Another question was simple: why did the DNA profile from those three donors contribute to Madeleine’s DNA profile and not to that of any other person, like the scientist who carried out the test? But the surprises from the preliminary reports were not to end there.

On the very day that interrogation of the McCann couple starts, a second preliminary report reaches us. Contrary to the first report, it accords more importance to the DNA profile of the blood lifted from the floor of the apartment. In that sample, the DNA came from more than one donor, but the confirmed DNA components match the corresponding components of Madeleine's DNA profile.

As for the samples lifted from the boot of the car, there is no further mention of the 15 markers, as if they had never existed.

Suddenly, light was starting to be cast on the issue:either this LCN technique is not reliable or it's simply much easier to explain the presence of Madeleine's DNA in the apartment than in the boot of a car hired 24 days after her disappearance.

At our insistence, Stuart contacts the FSS and asks them if they think the Portuguese are idiots. We hear him saying: "With a lot less than that, we would have already arrested someone in England." I look at my colleagues and see that they are as stupified as I am. In fact, in Portugal, it's not so easy to arrest someone. We explain to Stuart that the McCanns interrogations would not result in detention. According to Portuguese law, the crimes of concealment of a corpse and simulating an abduction are not liable to remanding in custody.

Offline gilet

Re: Amaral's grasp of forensics ...
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2013, 07:20:11 PM »
What I would love Luz to do as well as provide evidence for her claims with clear references to that evidence, is provide some kind of explanation for the crazy behaviour of Amaral who sent the pyjamas to the Portuguese lab when there was nothing they could do with them, nothing to compare them with. Surely as coordinator of the case he should have been aware of that?

Offline Luz

Re: Amaral's grasp of forensics ...
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2013, 07:25:24 PM »
What I would love Luz to do as well as provide evidence for her claims with clear references to that evidence, is provide some kind of explanation for the crazy behaviour of Amaral who sent the pyjamas to the Portuguese lab when there was nothing they could do with them, nothing to compare them with. Surely as coordinator of the case he should have been aware of that?

After all the miserable spectacle that you gave here you want me to give you more rope to hang yourself? You are not ignorant, you are twisted mind.
 
Sorry mate, I'm not a circus helper.

Go be a clown on your own account.

Offline Luz

Re: Amaral's grasp of forensics ...
« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2013, 07:30:30 PM »
The people that gathered the forensic evidence were from the Scientific Police, not from the investigation team. And Dr. Amaral wasn't even on the site when the investigators arrived.

But some imbeciles would love to decimate the man. I wonder if it is  because of the next Court trial that he will have facing the McCann!

Offline DCI

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Re: Amaral's grasp of forensics ...
« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2013, 07:39:59 PM »
Quote
As for the samples lifted from the boot of the car, there is no further mention of the 15 markers, as if they had never existed.

Suddenly, light was starting to be cast on the issue:either this LCN technique is not reliable or it's simply much easier to explain the presence of Madeleine's DNA in the apartment than in the boot of a car hired 24 days after her disappearance.

 FSS-GF-679 Emissao 2, Pagina 8

The attempt to obtain a DNA profile from any cellular material collected from the plastic area on the baggage compartment (286C/2007-CRL /10(2)) was unfruitful [fruitless, in vain, useless, unproductive, unsuccessful], because no DNA profile was obtained.

A mixed, low-level DNA result, that appeared to be from at least two persons, was obtained from a second area of the baggage compartment plastic (286C/2007-CRL /10(2)). This sample was submitted for tests to obtain DNA profiles through LCN.

A DNA result by complex LCN that appeared to be from at least three persons, was obtained from cellular material collected on the section of the baggage compartment 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. In my opinion, that result is too complex for a meaningful interpretation.

An incomplete, low-level DNA profile that matched corresponding components in the profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material present on the card key - (286C/2007-CRL (12)).
My colleague, Andrew Palmer, submitted various hair collected from the Renault Scenic for tests, using ... LCN.
Those hairs were designated as 7B hair 1 and 7C hairs 7, 13 e 15. Attempts to obtain a DNA profile of each hair by LCN was unfruitful, because no DNA profile was obtained by LCN, possibly due to there being an insufficient quantity of good quality DNA.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 07:42:40 PM by DCI »
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Redblossom

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Re: Amaral's grasp of forensics ...
« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2013, 07:40:47 PM »
Whether the pillowcase was carried to PT by Gerry McCann (as I have mistakenly claimed) or whether it was sent directly by LP to the FSS after Gerry's visit to Rothley my point remains that any involvement by him in the matter was incompetency on the part of the PJ.  They were investigating a missing child and should have obtained a DNA sample far earlier than 22 May.

If, as seems likely, they bungled the forensics of the Apt 5A bedding etc by allowing the cleaners to remove it on 4th May for washing then they should have immediately liaised with LP rather than waiting for Gerry to go home.


*********

Gilet, a couple of points:

- No, it is not at all likely that the cleaners took away bedding on 4th May as they were turned away from the crime scene the next day, so there was no bungling here of any kind you suggest

- DNA should be taken from a sterile source, flat 5a would have been the worst possible place to do so for obvious reasons

- In the circumstances, what difference would it have made to anything at all if the DNA profile had been obtained pre May 22nd?

Redblossom

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Re: Amaral's grasp of forensics ...
« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2013, 07:46:16 PM »
Quote
The pyjamas being sent are 'equal' in make, model, size, colours and designs as well as presumably the texture, to those the little girl was wearing at the time of her disappearance. The article sent serves for eventual comparisons with fibres collected by the competent officers of the Police Scientific Lab, within the scope of the current investigation.

Really?

So Amaral is saying, they have fibres from Madeleine's pyjamas. So where and how, did they aquire these fibres?

No, was not saying that, he was saying a duplicate pair of identical ones should be held for testing against any fibres that may be found in the future in the investigations. That is how I read it, JMO.

Offline DCI

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Re: Amaral's grasp of forensics ...
« Reply #43 on: April 15, 2013, 08:07:33 PM »
Quote
The pyjamas being sent are 'equal' in make, model, size, colours and designs as well as presumably the texture, to those the little girl was wearing at the time of her disappearance. The article sent serves for eventual comparisons with fibres collected by the competent officers of the Police Scientific Lab, within the scope of the current investigation.

Really?

So Amaral is saying, they have fibres from Madeleine's pyjamas. So where and how, did they aquire these fibres?

No, was not saying that, he was saying a duplicate pair of identical ones should be held for testing against any fibres that may be found in the future in the investigations. That is how I read it, JMO.
The only way they can be tested, in the future, is if they actually have the pyjamas, Madeleine wore. Even then there could be a difference in the fibres.
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Offline Luz

Re: Amaral's grasp of forensics ...
« Reply #44 on: April 15, 2013, 08:19:16 PM »
I am not a CSI expert, far from it, but don't you think that with the amount of evidence supplied to the best Laboratory in the world, a lot more information was expected?

The sturggies couldn't even say if the hair was from a dead or a live body - that much I could do with a simple microscope.